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Explore why a monotonous climb of Bitcoin may cause more heartache than surges. Listen to the hosts unpack why a slow, steady ascent to $1 million could be a Bitcoiner's worst nightmare.
Watch this episode on YouTube
Hosts:
JD - @CypherpunkCine on 𝕏
Anton Seim - @antonseim on 𝕏
Cory - @PykeCory on 𝕏
Zach - @idiotfortruth on 𝕏
Sponsors:
Unknown Certainty - The Bitcoin
Ad Company
IndeeHub - Reshape the Business of
Storytelling - @indeehub on 𝕏
Bitcoin makes everything better. Join the team and our guests as we unpack how, why, and where we go from here.
Hey friend, listen. I know the world is scary right now. Corruption, war, inflation, demographics,
degeneracy, disease, unrest, hatred, and despair. We didn't come here to tell you how it is,
but that it's going to get way better.
I just feel like I'm coming back from Vegas, baby. Let's fucking go, dude.
Hey man, if that doesn't get you jazzed every time.
I'm just getting drunk, dude. Let's go.
Every time.
Alright, well, I don't host. I'm a bad host. Forgive me, Lord, for I'm about to sin.
Welcome to the show.
We're going to do Max Clickbaity bullshit today. We're going to talk about a bunch of shit
none of us know or are qualified to understand or could possibly accurately predict.
But we know that you out there listening would like to get some alpha.
You've made a fucking terrible, terrible mistake clicking on this show.
Correct.
So, we're going to talk about what Max Payne looks like for the cycle.
If you have ever traded markets, particularly Bitcoin, you have no doubt come to the conclusion that it prefers to hurt the most amount of people for the longest amount of time.
And these little run-ups are short-lived, and I can tell you right now that bull markets are far more challenging than bear markets if this is your first bull market.
Welcome. Congratulations. You're probably going to fuck something up pretty terribly here in the next six months.
This guy.
Before we started rolling, all of us were talking about how we've personally taken out Max's credit card debt and are for sure going to get liquidated by Chase, Citi, Barclays.
Not financial advice.
Capital One.
But definitely fun. Definitely fun.
Capital One is the worst credit card company I have ever been involved with. I would highly recommend taking out maximum loans with them and buying Bitcoin.
I just want to know which one we think is going to fail first so we can get all of our loans there.
I feel like that's the one to think about. I was reading Wells Fargo is not doing great, so they seem like the prime candidate for egregious, stupid financial decisions, but that's just my thing.
I actually really like that strategy. There's got to be some autists out there that can figure out which bank is likely to fail, but we need to make sure they're small enough that they actually can fail.
This is true. Like Silicon Valley Bank. Super small bank. Legit. Saw that coming a mile away.
Well, the thing with Silicon Valley Bank was JP Morgan wanted it. Jamie Dimon just wanted it so they could let it fail, then he bought it. So that's what we need to target.
And it didn't even fail. It was assassinated. It was taken out back and shot in the head.
Yeah, and then he got a distressed asset and built it back up, and now it's got the whole client list. That's what you've got to look. You just look at corruption.
I do think it was taken out back and it double tapped itself in the back of the head, but that's a whole other thing.
I'm just trying to get some buzzwords and Epstein in here at least once, so that way we can get kicked off of YouTube.
Trump, Trump, Trump. Trump Democrats. Triggity, Triggity Trump. Maximum pain. Epstein Island.
Do the Jews control Bitcoin? Do we know?
Fuck, how did I forget the Jews?
How did you forget the Jews?
Oh, man. Jews, Jews.
It's on our channel for sure.
On either side. It's a perfect buzzword because it pisses everybody off.
I've got to pause myself for two seconds. Can you guys dive in?
Can we dive into that?
He's out.
He's out, bro.
All right. Well, sorry. Like I said, I've never hosted before. It's not going well.
All right. So the topic is maximum pain in this bull market.
J.D. and I were talking about this a little bit earlier today, and I have maybe a semi-spicy take here or it could be just lukewarm depending on what's most uncomfortable for you.
I think that max pain this cycle is actually a stairway to heaven.
I think that if Bitcoin just slow crawls to a million dollars in the next eight years and we don't see a retracement of less than or sorry, of more than 25 or 30 percent, I actually think that that is maximum pain.
Because there's a number of reasons, but you're going to have a bunch of impatient Bitcoiners who aren't satisfied with their stack, who are expecting massive drawdowns.
And I define max pain here as the most Bitcoiners losing the most Bitcoin.
At this point, we're all used to the drawdowns.
Even people who are in this market, if you've been orange-pilled by anybody, they have without question drilled into your brain that it's a volatile asset, that it's going to go up and down.
And so everybody is kind of expecting this volatility, and certainly the Bitcoiners are sitting around just like, yeah, let's bring on some cheap corn, bro.
He's going to buy some cheap corn.
But what's going to cause the most pain is there's no more cheap corn.
It's never happening.
And you're going to try to sell it some top, some arbitrary fucking number that you think is high, and you're expecting some 30, 40, 50 percent drawdown.
You're going to owe a bunch of tax.
The drawdown is never going to come.
And it's going to do this for years.
And you're going to get a bunch of impatient Bitcoiners who either can't afford their lifestyle, don't have income, expect a massive drawdown, impatient, whatever.
And they're going to end up in eight years with significantly less corn than if they had just held on.
Or if we had even had – let's say we have a massive run-up.
You know, at this point, it's kind of getting easier, right?
Like, it's easier to predict.
If we have some massive run-up that happens very, very quickly, let's say we go to 444K, you know, whatever, over the next nine months, like, it's going to be pretty fucking obvious that that's the point at which you're going to sell.
And the key thing there being the timeframe.
If it goes to 444K over the next two or three years, less obvious.
If it does it next week, for sure a bunch of people are selling.
So I don't think it's going to happen.
But if that does happen, it's obvious to sell.
It's going to crash.
We buy back more.
Everybody's used to it.
It's the same old game.
Yay.
Bitcoiners are happy.
They end up with more coins.
Not Max Payne.
I actually think that Max Payne is just an incredibly boring, incredibly slow drive all the way to a million dollars.
The second reason it's Max Payne is you've got the people who need to sell the Bitcoin to fund their life, and then you've got the people who don't want to sell it and try to borrow against it.
But nobody wants to – nobody with half a brain wants to borrow against an asset that's at all-time highs all of the time.
That's just at all-time highs for like five years straight.
Like that's not – that's a little too scary.
So then it gets to a million dollars, and everybody's like, okay, we're safe here.
It's cool.
It's been grinding up.
Everybody's going to take out a loan at a million dollars, and it's going to go down 50% in eight or nine years.
That is absolute Max Payne scenario.
I don't know.
Yeah, so it's a super interesting idea because the four-year cycle from the halving, once it happened the third time, to me it became too obvious where I plotted it out at that point.
I think it was November 2021 when the whole Bitcoin world was like we're ripping up to 100K.
It's happening right now, and everyone was on board.
I think I saw one tweet that basically said something similar to what you just said, which was how does everyone get screwed on this?
Exactly.
Everyone was agreed, and everything I knew about investing is when everyone's agreed on something, it's wrong, especially something speculative, especially something volatile, and I was still caught up in it.
I wasn't levered, so it wasn't devastating or anything, but it was devastating from the fact that I had liquidated other assets to put into it because I believed in it long-term.
I believed in the fundamentals, and I'm looking at this like, oh, my gosh, I'm about to triple my net worth in six months or whatever.
Then at that moment, what was it, 64, that crazy false top, and then it just tanks, and then it just bleeds down and down and down.
Then there's the Max Payne there of like, well, this could go down to 8,000 again, and then a lot of people didn't buy back in.
It comes back.
That sort of volatility, like you said, is kind of expected, and so it can't be Max Payne once it's expected.
It's so easy to lay those market cycles over each other, see the similarities, and say, all right, that's what's going to happen again.
I'm kind of with you that the slow crawl up is the most painful because if we're not talking about the pain of retail, because if we did another boom and bust, new retail would be the ones getting screwed by it.
The Bitcoiners would be fine, but that sort of volatility now is just exciting to this community.
It's kind of just like, oh, here we go again.
I was here for 80% drawdowns.
This is 35%.
You haven't seen anything, you children.
That's kind of what this community is all about now.
That slow crawl up, especially the other aspect of that stairway to heaven pain scenario is people getting on board, corporations getting on board, sovereign nations, to a smaller extent, getting on board, but the normies coming in and having it just work for them.
I think that our small community who's been through the pain of up and downs, of screaming into what seems like the void over and over again that this is the future of the world, once that actually starts to happen, some of that identity gets lost a little bit.
There's a personal pain to that.
We were this small, condensed community, and now everyone just has a $300,000 Bitcoin, and they've got their stats, and it goes up by 2% a month or whatever.
I don't know.
I think existentially, as a Bitcoiner, that doesn't sound that great.
Selfishly, there's something great about feeling like I'm right and everyone else is wrong.
When everyone else gets on board, it's like, I don't know.
Yeah.
Well said.
There's going to be a bunch of people who just can't handle how boring it is, can't handle that they're not cool anymore, can't handle that – there's going to be a bunch of impatient noobs who trade themselves out of their Bitcoin stack if Bitcoin just gently goes to a million dollars over 10 years.
Speaking of impatient noobs who just jump back in randomly after jumping out, sorry.
I had to handle something quickly, but I found a friend.
He brought another impatient noob.
They travel in – they're pack animals.
They're herd creatures.
Oh, man.
So I heard nothing about the Max Payne you guys were talking about before.
Apologies on that.
So if we recover stuff – I'm sorry.
Basically, quick recap for you guys.
I don't know if you heard what we were saying, Anton, but the idea is the most amount of pain for the most amount of people is a slow and steady grind to a million dollars over the next 8 to 10 years.
Bitcoiners are expecting volatility at this point.
They're ready for a massive drawdown.
They're ready to take out leverage at the bottom.
The market is more mature for all of those things, and the reality is that that would probably net most Bitcoiners more Bitcoin.
But that's not likely going to happen.
In my opinion, the most painful scenario is this slow grind up where we don't see a 25% or 30% reduction.
You're going to see people trade – try to trade in and out of it.
They're going to get wrecked in the chop.
Don't say that.
They're going to owe tax that they don't manage very well.
Don't say that.
I don't want to have that happen.
They're going to have a lot less Bitcoin.
That's the core thesis.
Where are you at with it, Anton?
Yeah.
The last 10 years, it was about how many dollars can you get for the Bitcoin that you have?
I watched this YouTube short.
This guy walks up to a house, knocks on the door.
It's a huge mansion.
He's like, how did you get all your money to buy this mansion?
This lady comes out, and she's like, oh, I was early in Bitcoin.
That lady sold all of her Bitcoin.
She has no Bitcoin.
She has a giant mansion.
That was how you had the status of wealth over the last 10 years.
The next 10 years will be how much Bitcoin can you get?
Because as Bitcoin gets more and more expensive, people are going to have less and less and less of it.
All the suckers that think that they're rich because the price went to $125,000 and sell it all,
and then try to rebuy back in, and now all of a sudden the price is $250,000,
they're going to have a lot less Bitcoin.
That's just going to keep happening over and over and over again as the price continues to climb.
I agree with you.
I don't know if the time period is eight years or not.
I don't know.
I can't predict that.
It feels like right now that Bitcoin could go to $1 million by the end of the year.
I think that this market is far more liquid, and there's far more trad5 shenanigans going on in it.
All you got to do is look at the chart.
If you pull up the Bitcoin chart, do a monthly or weekly candles, put it in log,
and you see these very natural, very organic waves up with attention,
and then it crashes back down as people get fearful,
and it waves up with attention and crashes back down.
It feels very organic.
It feels very circular.
We are in a completely different paradigm.
From $16K at this recent bottom all the way up, it's basically now this linear channel pattern.
It's just straight up and to the right, consolidates, straight up and to the right, consolidates.
It feels much more sophisticated.
It's much more programmatic.
It's much less organic.
It's like the professionals have arrived.
They are doing everything they can to acquire as much Bitcoin in this market as humanly possible.
They control it.
They control that fear.
They control that emotion.
They bottle it up.
They sell it to other people.
They profit from it themselves, however you want to look at it.
We're just not in the same dynamic.
We're not in the same market.
I don't think there's enough excess capital sloshing around the system to push us up that far.
Maybe like $400, $500 would be like, holy crap.
The ability for the market to short this is greater than it's ever been.
For big money to come in and pile on and push it down.
It's just so different than it was in 2017.
If people weren't around then, it's like 2017, this thing was $1,000.
The whole market was like $1,000.
The whole market was hundreds of billions.
I mean, dudes who took out some leverage and were messing around, who were just kind of OG whales,
could move the market on a weekend by themselves.
That is just not the paradigm we're in anymore.
This is not a retail story anymore.
It's over.
It's done.
You had your shot from zero to $100,000.
The ball has been handed off.
The rules are different, man.
We're playing the Navy Seals at this point.
We're not playing each other.
I'm curious your take on this, Corey, of like, J.D., you are muted.
I can hear him.
I hear him, too.
We can hear each other.
Boo.
Terrible host.
Terrible host.
Somebody kick me out.
Hilarious.
Corey's muted, too.
Am I the only one who's muted?
No, you just can't hear us.
You just can't hear us.
You can't hear us.
We can hear you.
Good episode, guys.
The question I have for you, Corey, is do you have kind of a take on this of like,
the beach ball is being pushed down by institutions, right?
And so if the beach ball is being pushed down by institutions,
how do we see things like we saw this weekend where we see stuff kind of going up
and we see stuff where we have these big price moves?
Did somebody miss something or are they playing inside baseball back and forth?
Like, how does that work?
I don't know that they can control price action on the level that we saw this weekend, right,
from $108 to $124, was it, and then back down to $117.
I'm not sure that they care at that level.
I think they're, you know, with the amount of money that they have auto buys
and they have other ways to get in to make sure that it doesn't dip.
But I think those little dalliances up don't bother them that much.
I think the institutional buyers that realize that this is hard money,
which is I think most of them, right, like the Fidelities and BlackRocks,
that are putting major money into this, they understand that this is hard money,
that it's more scarce than gold, that when Uganda discovers 31 million tons
or whatever that was, $12 trillion worth of gold,
that everything they hold in gold is threatened all of a sudden.
Like, that's downward pressure on a beach ball.
There's not that much that they can do.
They can short it, right, and you can make, when you're big enough,
you can make a big enough short against a major buying position
that basically guarantees your purchase price.
But you can't do that.
You can't do a ton of that because it's, you know,
you have limitless losses to the upside if it runs.
So I think there's temporary things they can do.
There's, you know, there's Wall Street moving things that, you know,
price action things that they can do.
But to me, it's much more like Zach was saying.
It's all about what they're, you know,
they're trying to get their hands on as much Bitcoin as possible.
And if you're buying hundreds of millions a day,
and you can move the price down $3,000, that helps you a lot, obviously.
But I don't think they can get it below $100, right?
I think there's too much.
There's still enough liquidity in the market that wants discounted Bitcoin
that it has me leaning more and more towards Zach's stairway to heaven theory.
As long as we don't go too high too quickly,
that's where I think the institutions, they don't want it to get to $250,
you know, by the end of August,
because they've got all this other money flowing into it.
I think they just keep putting the pressure on in small ways like that.
But that control where you don't get as much of a blow off top
means you probably don't get nearly as much of a retracement.
And like Zach was saying with 2017, and I was saying with 2021,
there wasn't the steady daily recurring buy
of hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars from institutional buyers.
They click buy, you know, they click their limit buy, they set it up.
Obviously, it's not a limit buy, but it just keeps flowing in at the price.
And if it dips a couple thousand, all of a sudden,
their actuarial tables trigger even more hundreds of millions of dollars.
And that's the type of thing where the bottom was able to fall out before that.
I don't I don't think it is.
It's able to in the same way, unless, like we've been saying,
it goes up over 400 by the end of the year or something like that.
Then you can you know, you might see some some massive selling.
I just think, you know, as we talk about Max Payne
and Zach defined it as the Max Payne for Bitcoiners, that slow, steady work up.
If you broaden that to Max Payne for people who are right on the outside
or maybe a year away from getting into Bitcoin, maybe two,
like everyone that's going to come into it, that steady climb up, you know,
you think about the other assets that they're holding, like equities,
which are priced absolutely insanely right now, like all equities.
They're priced like we're about to have a major recession.
But we keep just printing money and pouring money into it.
So you're purchasing power is getting eroded.
The real estate market actually is finally going down,
which I didn't think would happen, you know, for another little while.
But prices are actually falling.
Things are staying on the market for an extended period of time.
And the value that people thought they had in their homes,
that just, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars
that just kind of appeared out of thin air for homeowners
in the past couple of years is starting to get threatened.
And a lot of people who have decent debt
will still have some of that chunk there.
But for the people who haven't jumped in yet, it's, you know,
the Bitcoiners are pricing houses in Bitcoin already.
But for people who are looking at what are the assets
that are actually going to rise over the next seven years,
they're going to be holdouts, you know,
especially boomers who are controlling a lot of the money.
Maybe equities are going to turn around.
Maybe the bond market will come back.
Maybe the Japan reverse carry trade will come back.
Maybe real estate will come back.
And right now, looking forward at all of those things,
especially with the big, beautiful bill,
I think we all had kind of a six-month dalliance
that there might be fiscal responsibility coming.
And then that notion got shattered just immediately.
Just kind of as soon as they could,
they shattered that notion.
They wasted no time.
So now you're like, okay, so trillions more coming in.
Trillions more have to be printed.
The deficit's not going anywhere.
The way they're handling it,
we're probably not having a fiscal conservative
coming into office anytime in the next eight years.
So if you look at that,
and this is like a blanket generalization,
but let's say all of that
is putting major downward pressure
on the purchasing power of your dollar
and the valuing of equities
and the valuing of real estate,
which is where most of the wealth of the country is held.
If you have the stairway to heaven thing
that Zach's talking about,
the longer you hold onto your failing asset,
the less Bitcoin you have.
And even when you sell it,
then you're buying an asset
that's now kind of creeping up
instead of what we know,
which is like, oh my gosh, I'm super rich.
And then you sell and remake your stack.
So I think it's not only Max Payne for Bitcoiners,
but it's this new world reality
where the longer you wait to get on,
not only do you get less Bitcoin
for the amount of money that you had,
but the wealth that you thought you had
is being eroded faster than ever before.
I think that's a terribly painful scenario.
I think you could see retirees
who thought they were completely set for 20 years,
10 years in saying, what happened?
My 401k was worth $2 million.
What happened?
I owned Nvidia.
I thought we were good.
Yeah, I think that's well said
with regards to the other side of it,
which is people still in stocks.
Because there's no obvious signal for them.
It's like they just wake up once a year
and they go, oh, Bitcoin is kind of
up to another 30% this year
and then 10 or 15 years go by
and there's 50% of their wealth
which has been evaporated.
50% of their opportunity to maintain
or increase purchasing power.
So I do think it's Max Payne for most people.
Sorry if I missed a bunch of genius comments there.
I don't know what happened.
I have a friend who's still in altcoin.
He's in Monero.
And I'm on the thread with him
and he was telling the whole group
how well he's done in Monero.
And so I was on the text thread that we're on
and I had Grok make a little graph
to show how much he's lost
in terms of Bitcoin by staying in it.
And it's like, he just couldn't see it.
I like to remind myself about stupid shit
that I bought over the last five years
for whatever price it was.
And had I put it in Bitcoin,
how much money it would be worth.
Pretty soon the stock enjoyer
is going to be doing the exact same thing.
Yeah, and the real estate holder.
No one sheds a tear for the day trader
or for the Wall Street guy.
But for the couple or the young family
who put all of their savings into their home
because they just had to
right over the past four or five years,
you bought what felt like the top of the market
and then it kept going up.
And that was just all you could do
is the only way to buy a home
because we're absurdly overpriced.
And then you think,
okay, well, it just keeps going up.
Is it just going to keep going up?
I don't think there's going to be a real estate crash
because it's just, it's the middle class's wealth.
Like I just think they'll pump the money
the money into the market.
Everything that every home relief program
that's been pitched in the past year
and probably for the past 20 years
is all on the demand side,
which just raises prices.
Yeah, real estate has to be,
I'm kind of talking out of my ass here.
Maybe we can grok this or whatever,
but like real estate mortgage lending has to be,
if not the biggest,
like the second biggest vehicle for money
to find its way into the system.
Like that is how we bring most of the money.
Yeah, it's the number one money printer.
Yeah, no, I've researched this well.
It's like when you get,
like at some point,
if we get away from a fiat system,
there'll be a rude awakening for everyone
who realized that when you had a Fannie or Freddie mortgage,
you weren't actually getting the money.
If you walk into Wells Fargo or Chase
or any of the mortgage lenders,
they're not lending you the money.
They don't even have the money.
They carry the paper for two weeks
and then they send it to the Fed
and then the Fed invents the money
and then gives it back to them, right?
That's the mechanism.
That's how almost everyone in the country
has bought a home for the past 25 years.
That's insanity.
And how insidious is this
that they say this is the American dream, right?
They sell us this is the American dream,
but really what they were doing was
they were presenting a prison cell
and they were like,
how can we convince them to walk into this willingly?
That's how fucking insidious that shit is.
It is totally unconscionable.
Mortgages in the United States
are the mechanism by which we are enslaved
and it's also the mechanism by which
all of the money finds its way into the system
and makes all of the other money more expensive.
It's so fucked up.
Exactly.
But this is why if we bring it back to Max Payne,
not to dominate this point,
but it's worked for a really long time.
It's so hard to orange pill my dad
because he came up through the money printing
and was a productive member of society
and made enough money to retire.
So he's like, what do I care?
It works to some extent.
But for the people who are on the upswing of that,
looking at their future and saying,
I did it.
I bought the house.
I have the well-paid job.
This is how I get to retirement.
It's not the same reality, right?
The stairway to heaven of Bitcoin is
it's just eating everybody's lunch,
but no one gets as much of the lunch
as they hoped they did.
And resettling around reality
when you've been pretending
there's all this value in the world
is going to be really painful.
There's no way around that.
Yeah, it's the entire world flipping
from Keynesian to Austrian economic understandings
of how the world works.
It's literally real value versus paper value
and that's going to come in a Max Payne way,
I think, to every single person.
Anton, I'm curious your take on that, right?
Because I feel like that is Max Payne,
is that understanding,
getting people in the face.
But what do you think that looks like?
Where do you think people who still have
a Keynesian economic outlook of the world
and they're looking at Bitcoin
and they're going to make some foolish decisions
in the next 12, 6 to 18 months,
how does that look like in your mind?
I want to slander boomers real quick
because they are the ultimate Keynesians.
Boomers think that they're geniuses
because they bought their house in 1975
and made 100x on it.
You see these memes of boomers
living on cruise ships.
They've got a day drinking buzz
and they're just hitting a digital slot machine,
just partying their balls off.
They got five more years to live.
They sold their house.
They didn't give it to their kids.
They left no inheritance.
They have no concern for generational wealth
and they just want to spend it to zero.
And they're the ones that created this.
They were there
when we were taking off the gold standard
and they've benefited from it.
And everybody knew that all these bills
were going to be coming due
when you make money debt.
And they did it anyway
and they don't care.
No, they don't even understand.
They don't even understand.
I think the percentage of boomers
who actually understand
how the printing works
and who understand
the fractional reserve nature of the system,
I think that percentage is like
less than one half of 1% of boomers.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's the Mark Twain quote, right?
I'm going to butcher it,
but it's very hard to get someone
to believe something
when their paycheck
depends on believing the opposite.
And I think it's a little bit less insidious
than that with boomers
because no one was arguing,
apart from like Rand Paul,
was anyone arguing?
Like there were gold bugs here and there
who kind of foresaw this
from a long way away,
but they underestimated how long
we could keep the Ponzi scheme
of fiat printing going.
I think it's just unexamined.
Like why would they examine it?
Their number goes up every year,
with the exception of 08, basically,
and maybe the dot-com crash
if they were invested in that way.
Their number just kind of kept going up.
And as long as you kept getting moderate raises,
your house value would go up,
your stock portfolio would go up,
and your life
and your purchasing power over time
would probably outpace.
If you were in the asset class,
it would probably outpace inflation.
So you felt like your life
was getting better over time.
And that house of cards
has come down in a major way
with 25% inflation in six years
and $13 trillion in printing.
We basically just said,
this worked before.
What if we did it a hundred times
as quickly as we did it before?
And that's painful, right?
And there's just no way around that.
Reality, the brick wall of reality
has arrived.
Yeah, the Fed told everybody
that they were going to make inflation 2%.
And they said, we can hold it there.
And then everybody was told
that they would get roughly an 8%
annualized return in the stock market.
And so boomers just did the math
and they said,
I'm just going to make a shit ton of money
if I just hold money in stocks
or if I buy bonds or whatever,
and I'll retire, I'll be good to go.
Who cares what happens after me?
Who cares?
Yeah.
I think we need more boomer slander, personally.
I tried to,
it's kind of, what's that,
what's that phrase for
people who've been imprisoned
and then they develop a relationship
with their captor?
Stockholm Syndrome.
Epstein Syndrome.
Sorry, different.
No, that's being raped.
No, like I tried to,
when I was kind of having my own personal
financial renaissance
of understanding how this stuff was working,
I tried to explain it to my mom one time
and she couldn't grasp,
I did the math.
I went and did the math for her
and I said, how much did they take out
of your check for Social Security
roughly from when you were working
to when you retired?
I did the math and basically
if she had just taken that money
and invested it in the S&P,
just basic shit,
she'd have over a million dollars
like the numbers were crazy,
a million, two million dollars,
something like that
and that'd be obviously plenty enough
for her to retire on
but instead she gets her pittance
from Social Security or whatever
and I came to the realization
and I tried to tell her
they literally stole your money.
They took it from you.
They told you that you were going
to be taken care of
and that you needed them
to take care of you
because you couldn't do it yourself
and then they stole your money
and now you don't have any
and you're still defending what they did
because you still don't think
that you were capable
of taking care of yourself.
Like this shit is,
it's just not okay.
Like it really,
it's just not,
I'm not okay with this shit.
I have a question for the group
in terms of,
let's just keep the boomer slander going
but when the brick wall of reality
arrives for the fiat system,
there's going to be some bag holders
of stuff that 20 years ago
was really valuable
that is worth zero.
Like golf course property,
remote golf course property.
Hey, hey, hey.
There's always a buyer
for remote golf course properties.
Well yeah,
you and I will be buying it
for pennies on the dollar.
Don't get me wrong.
People will still live there.
But like the second home market,
right?
Yes.
We're talking about like assets.
Others are like beanie babies.
I'm talking about assets.
I'm talking about people that like
I finally got the asset
and this will hold its value.
I went to a bachelor party in Breckenridge
at a non-ski-in-ski-out big house
and it was on the market
for $14 million.
And every house on the street
was on the market.
And this was only like
two or three years ago.
I'm thinking about things like that, right?
Like when the reality
of like how much money
there actually is
becomes apparent,
who are the bag holders?
I think this is actually
a really good thing though.
Like honestly,
stocks, who gives a fuck?
Like get wrecked, you know?
Like fuck off.
But housing,
if housing stays neutral
to down over the next,
you know, in real terms,
it's not going down in nominal terms.
Like we all know that's going up.
But let's say it stays neutral
to down in real terms.
I think that's actually fantastic.
Because you're quelling the rage
at the bottom of the pyramid.
Like if more people
can afford more housing
and it's cheaper in real terms,
great.
Honestly, fantastic.
And if that has to come out of,
you know, stock market bag holders
and then all the rest of the energy
gets sent to the Bitcoiners
or Bitcoin absorbs that monetary premium
from the real estate market,
like great.
Like I'm all for that.
I'm into it.
That's the way that technology
is supposed to make,
that's what's supposed to happen.
Technology is supposed to create
deflation essentially.
I mean, look at televisions.
A television in the 1980s
or early 90s
was more expensive
than a television is today.
And yet prices have been
inflating the whole time.
The reason is because
the whole production pipeline
of televisions got more streamlined
and then the technology
just made it all a little bit cheaper.
That same thing could happen with housing.
So as technology,
you know,
whether it's like 3D printed housing
or I can't even imagine
all the ways that it's going to be better.
Theoretically,
housing should get
nominally cheaper over time,
theoretically.
Yeah, so,
but okay,
but let me give one more example though.
So you were saying,
what are the things that are,
you know,
inflated right now
that are going to come down?
I'll give one example.
Okay, Adam Carolla,
the comedian,
he bought a Porsche
that was driven by Paul Newman
and he paid $4 million for it
when he bought it.
A few years later,
it was worth $8 million.
I have no idea how much it's worth now.
It's probably worth 12
or something like that.
That car
should be a depreciating asset
because the car,
he literally has to have
a crew of people
working full time
to maintain
all the different vehicles
that he has.
It shouldn't just be going up
in value forever.
So there are things right now
that are being used
to preserve wealth
that are just going up
as we've seen
this rampant inflation.
But eventually,
those things are going to come down.
It's just
the law of thermodynamics.
Those things are going to break down
over time.
So they're going to come down in value.
The longest term loan
for a house
in the early 1900s
was five years.
That was the longest
a bank would lend
against a house
because they depreciated
because the Federal Reserve
hadn't yet fucked everything up.
The only reason
that we have 30-year mortgages
is because the Ponzi scheme
has to continue.
That's it.
That's it.
Like you said, Anton,
these are consumer goods.
My house gets worth less
every year
because it's falling apart
every year.
Every time it rains,
every time it floods,
every time it snows,
whatever.
I got to fix it.
It's more expensive.
The only reason
that these things are going up
is because it is the mechanism
by which they enact slavery
upon the population.
Is Bitcoin headed for Max Payne?
I think the answer is yes,
but I don't think
it's the way people expect.
I think Max Payne
is Bitcoin skyrocketing
to Samson Mao's $1 million
and then coming down
and just wrecking everybody
the whole way down
and going to like 50
or something absolutely stupid.
The reason I think that
is because everybody's going to think
that they're a genius
for five seconds
and then the other side of it
is everybody's going to be
just lambasted as a fool
when at the end of the day
if you jumped on
in that crazy run
without an understanding
of what you were doing,
you were just grabbing
the handle of the bus
and you got flipped by,
that is going to cause you
to get wrecked
and get into the situation
Corey was talking about
where you have less Bitcoin.
The move probably won't be as drastic
because of the institutions.
I don't disagree with that,
but that example I think
is where we actually get
this version of FTX
which is treasury companies
going under
because I think a lot of people
are like,
oh God, we got to do
exactly what Saylor's doing
without an understanding
of the underlying asset.
Hashtag the smarter web company.
And you're just going to get
to a point where
people are going to see pensions,
they're just going to see
everything going up and to the right
and they're going to see
it's not even up to the right,
it's just a straight line up.
Like this is what you expect,
this is what you're going to get
and everybody's just going to flip out.
Like I got to jump
in this thing right now
and I think that in my mind
is max pain.
Is everybody jumping on the lifeboat
and basically the boat's going to go
under the water for five seconds
and then it's going to start to sink
and then as soon as enough
people pile off,
there's still enough buoyancy
it's going to come back up,
but max pain in my mind
is super violent move
to the upside
where a lot of people get on,
leverage in every other way
and then they just get absolutely wrecked
because they don't understand
what they're holding on to.
I think that already happened
in 2017, 2020, 2021
such that everybody in the world
already knows about Bitcoin.
It's not a new novel thing
that they're going to get fooled into,
aping into and buying.
The novelty of it has passed
and most people just don't have
that much excess money right now.
Like 2021, 2020,
that was just such a completely different thing
because they were literally
fucking giving out money for free.
Trillions of it.
I guess we could talk about the...
I'd be curious your guys' opinion
on what the likelihood
of this new treasury strategy is
of causing the next major bear.
I don't really have a strong opinion on it,
but it makes sense to me
that these companies
could be the thing that causes
the next major leveraged,
cascading leverage down
forced liquidation bear market.
When you said treasury companies,
I was thinking...
For some reason in my head,
I was thinking the new Federal Reserve chair,
not treasury companies
because Trump is saying
he's going to fire Jerome Powell,
which I didn't think that the president
had the ability to do it anyway.
He can't.
He can't.
There will be treasury companies that fail.
No question about it.
Treasury companies are a shit coin.
If you're a Bitcoiner,
buy Bitcoin.
Don't buy shares in a treasury company.
That's my opinion.
My opinion is that Bitcoin is for individuals.
There are going to be treasury companies
that just do absolutely retarded,
dumb things
and lose their private keys
or get hacked
and they're going to go bankrupt.
That's bound to happen.
Crazy, crazy, ridiculous question here.
Who do you guys think
is going to be the first CEO
of a publicly traded company
to disappear
with the private keys
of that company's Bitcoin
and a massive manhunt goes down
and then the whole regulatory environment
has to change?
That's for sure going to happen.
If you don't know what's going to happen,
you have not been paying attention.
There's been so much of that
over the entire history of Bitcoin.
There were so many crazy stories like that.
No, no.
But of a publicly traded company
that tells its investors,
we're going to put Bitcoin
on the balance sheet.
We're going to do this thing
and then just takes the keys
and disappears.
I'll do you another one.
Sorry to jump in.
I'll do you another one.
How likely do you think it is
that the 172,000 Bitcoin
that the U.S. government
has seemingly misplaced
based on what we learned today
from the U.S. Marshall's office
that they were not sold
because they would have had to announce it
but somebody just procured them
and ran away with them?
I think it's probably more likely
that there's a shit ton of text threads
going like, oh shit, today
than there is the U.S. government
accidentally sold them.
I think it's actually probably more likely
somebody just walked away
because like, oh,
if people don't understand Bitcoin,
it was probably five or 10 years ago.
Like, oh, people don't know what this is.
Oh, that thumb drive just fell in the trash can.
Oh, no.
I'm going to Cabo forever.
The question I have is
we know this came from the U.S. Marshall's service
but certainly the U.S. Marshall's service
is not the only entity
in the United States federal government
that holds the keys to Bitcoin.
So is this just the Marshall's service
or are they actually saying
that the Marshall's hold every sap
that the federal government owns?
My understanding is that
I don't know the answer.
I'll crack it here in a second.
My understanding is that
Treasury doesn't have a vehicle set up for that.
And so because it's a physical asset,
it's held with the Marshall's
versus being held at Treasury.
Well, then, I mean,
for sure, some of that's been stolen.
But hey, this is an immutable public ledger.
So we'll find out.
I'll find out though.
I'm grokking it right now
because grokking is everything, right?
If it was sent, you know,
if it was sent to exchanges and auctioned off,
you know, because it's like the U.S. Marshall,
they auction shit, right?
I mean, they have a common protocol for this stuff.
They take property,
they auction it that's been confiscated.
So that'll be,
I would imagine that information
would be quite easy to figure out here
in the next couple of days
for somebody sleuthing.
These people are not dumb.
I mean, if they were to find some cartel member
with a billion dollars and hundred dollar bills,
you don't think they're going to pocket some of it?
They probably would.
So you remember when Russ Ulbricht
was caught by FBI agents.
So Russ Ulbricht was given a life sentence.
Russ Ulbricht is out of jail,
but you know who's in jail?
Two FBI agents who were on that case.
They stole,
I think they stole Bitcoin.
I'm not,
you'd have to look this up too.
I don't know exactly what they did,
but I'm pretty sure they stole some of the Bitcoin.
And so this is common.
Bitcoin is essentially the new cat.
Wasn't one of them for the entrapment
where they tried to get them in on a murder plot
and it was,
they tried to do a sting
and it turned out to be entrapment.
I think I got one of them for that.
Yup.
There's a good book on it,
American Pen Pen.
It's super,
if you ask Grock about this,
it's super confusing.
Grock can't even tell you.
It's like,
did Ross Ulbricht actually try to get a hit man
to kill somebody?
And they're like,
it's kind of inconclusive.
It's a little hard to figure this out.
I just imagine there's going to be a Ross video
like 20 years from now,
just like that.
One guy who walks up to the Italian looking dude
on the beach.
He's like,
hey,
what's your body count?
And it's like,
you definitely know that that guy doesn't understand
what that is.
And he pauses and he's like,
uh,
three.
And then just like the music starts playing.
It's going to be one of those things,
like Ross isn't paying attention
and they're going to be like,
you know,
the new word for,
for body count in 20 years.
And he's like,
I have no idea.
He's like,
oh yeah,
like two.
Be great.
But I,
back to the,
to the leveraged,
you know,
I,
I don't think that I don't,
I mean,
I'm a fucking idiot,
so I don't know,
but I don't see how we,
how we get the price of Bitcoin super,
super high here,
uh,
from a leveraged perspective,
um,
without massive corporates just borrowing against
their current balance sheets.
Uh,
you know,
that that's the kind of stuff that's like money,
money,
money printing fervor.
Um,
you know,
where there's a little mania and then a couple of people get
liquidated cause they go too far.
And then we have the cascading liquidations.
But if that doesn't,
if that doesn't really happen,
um,
we could just see this like nom,
nom,
nom,
nom,
nom,
chomp,
chomp,
chomp,
chomp,
chomp.
You know,
we're at 400 K and four years or something.
So no matter how corporations want to leverage debt to try to
procure Bitcoin,
there's still only 21 million.
And on top of that,
there's usually only about 2 million that are even available to
purchase.
And so we talk in these fiat terms where money is essentially
infinite.
You can leverage as much debt as you want,
but you can't buy as much Bitcoin as you want.
And so that,
I mean,
this is just more evidence that there's going to be further
pressure to make the price go higher and higher and higher as demand
increases.
Think when nation States are getting involved,
like right now,
there's only a few nation States that have tried to buy any massive
amount of Bitcoin.
Max Keiser's talked about this in the past,
but the first country that completely hyper inflates their currency to
just buy as much Bitcoin as possible wins.
When that starts happening,
crazy,
crazy stuff could happen to the press.
I,
I don't,
you know,
I'll take the other side of that just for,
for the interesting argument.
Like I actually don't,
I don't see,
I don't see sovereigns being the primary driver of Bitcoin price.
I'm not saying they're not going to drive it.
I'm just,
I don't think that they're ever going to be the primary driver.
And part of that is because a,
you know,
the corporate,
the private debt markets,
debt markets for public companies and private companies are,
are absolutely gigantic.
You know,
like the government printing money is still kind of pales in comparison to
how much debt is out there.
Bonds,
corporate bonds,
treasuries,
things like that.
So corporates drive more money creation.
And the other thing is the legal structure around a company around,
around,
around a country to go buy a bunch of Bitcoin.
Like this is like even El Salvador,
like what do you,
what is Bukele going to do with his Bitcoin?
What are the internal rules that,
that dictate the process by which you either borrow against it or you spend
it for public works processes or whatever there,
there is there,
the legal structures for this shit don't exist yet.
And there might be some like pissant country that,
you know,
decides to,
you know,
print their own currency of which there really aren't that many to go buy a
bunch of Bitcoin.
That's going to like be good for that country.
Like that doesn't mean that country is well organized or has a culture of
organization or it can effectively do anything with it in the first place.
Like,
They got a bunch of Bitcoin in the balance sheet.
What the fuck are they going to do with it?
I think I'm,
I'm with you to an extent,
Zach,
because,
but I think what we lose sight of is,
is how much bigger the U S is than every other country.
And,
and the level of wealth that we have,
like Apple is bigger than most countries.
So like the,
the top end of the U S corporate market can drive like orders of mag,
multiple orders of magnitude,
more price action than El Salvador's entire economy can.
And that's true of a lot of countries.
So to me,
it's if the sovereigns start doing it in a way that knocks the dominoes down
to the point where China or the EU or the U or U S gets involved,
then it's,
then to me,
sovereigns are really interesting.
But if it's El Salvador to Turkey,
to Venezuela,
to Columbia,
to Argentina,
to Zimbabwe,
like the places that are in max pain with their own currencies right now,
or Nigeria overthrows their government,
they do it.
And jury is enormous,
but they're,
they have no economic significance whatsoever.
You can combine all of them.
You can combine the massive,
the biggest buying that all of those countries combined could possibly do.
And it's like a quarter for one of the magnificent seven.
So it's,
it's interesting in this,
in the sense that it could,
you know,
it could create a floor.
I just don't see it in the short term driving it up.
There's so much more drama coming.
I love it from the filmmaker,
from a story perspective,
just thinking about one of these shithole countries,
if they were to go buy as much Bitcoin as they can,
and then there was a military coup or just somebody went and stole it.
Like,
I want to say that Bukele locked up a ledger in an actual safe with
something like 5,000 Bitcoin on it or $5 billion.
I forget what it was.
It's some,
some number,
some number.
It's a lot of Bitcoin.
And he put it on a little ledger device and locked it in a safe.
What if somebody cracks that safe and runs off with it and takes it out of
the country?
There's so much of that stuff is going to happen.
It kind of excites me.
I'm like,
what's going to happen?
What's the next thing?
Yeah.
And it's,
it's going to dictate policy,
you know,
and maybe some of these things are,
are manufactured so that the state can,
can create,
you know,
less than advantageous regulations around how governments are,
are,
are able to custody and spend and use and borrow against.
But you said something,
Anthony,
man,
I just,
it's so,
it was so succinct,
you know,
and I think it's,
it's just a great meme.
Bitcoin is for individuals.
It could be that Bitcoin is rat poison for anything larger than a certain
corporate size.
I mean,
it could be that it because of the fallibility of the individual,
it could be that Bitcoin just is incompatible with large institutions that
large bureaucracies that don't have accountability baked into the structure
of the institution.
Can I,
can I give you a max pain for those?
Cause we haven't really covered what's,
how do the corporations feel pain with it,
right?
Is there a scenario where they start buying Bitcoin?
Cause I see it as a growth asset,
but it's,
the growth of Bitcoin starts to level out and we start to see it just
returning it to reality.
And then all of the corporations get a spotlight shown on them because if
the Bitcoin that they're holding isn't going up in value,
then they have to do what they were supposed to do as a company in the
first place,
which is make a product that creates actual value,
right?
They actually have to do work.
I think the max pain for the corporations,
even the ones that buy Bitcoin,
maybe especially so are that they're going to have to figure out how to make
products again and deliver goods and services that actually create value for
the world.
And they can't do financial cannery.
Like you ever seen the,
the graph of how much corporate profit went into buybacks in the past 10
years?
It's just,
it was never a thing before.
And all of a sudden it's like,
I'm one of the guys on the all in podcast said it well,
he's like,
you do as a company,
you do a buyback when you don't know what else to do with your money.
And it's basically all Apple's been doing with its excess cash.
It's got most of the cash.
Most of their profit is just in cash.
And what do they do?
They just pump their own stock price with buybacks.
It's literally just,
and then all that does is allow them to sell their stock if they want the
cash in the future,
which is like,
it's a Ponzi scheme.
Like that's such a Ponzi scheme.
And then everyone who's holding Apple stock is like,
all right,
10% this month.
But they didn't do anything.
They didn't make a new product.
They didn't sell more product.
They literally just pumped their own stock price.
That's the nonsense that has to go away.
We could also end up in a situation where you get it.
Like you say,
Corey,
you know,
Bitcoin is going to drive competition.
And at some point you're going to have to be the best at doing what you do.
You're going to,
you're not going to survive.
That's what this comes down to.
We have to abide by the laws of physics again,
and we have to be efficient and productive again.
So there's,
so there's going to be by like,
by matter of logic,
there's going to be a shitload of companies that just try to,
they're basically zombie companies.
They're going to try to do this Bitcoin thing.
They're going to try to pump their stock for the short term,
but ultimately they're not creating a product.
Anybody gives a damn about,
and all of those metrics are going to take a massive dump.
Their MNAV is going to be negative or whatever below one.
And they're just going to get bought out.
Like those companies are going to get bought out,
not for what they do as companies,
but because they have a bunch of Bitcoin on their balance sheet.
That's at a discount.
Yep.
It'll be their only value.
And for MicroStrategy,
because they're first,
that'll be fine.
They've got plenty of value,
but what about the,
there's going to be a whole host of corporations that jump on this late and realize
we haven't actually created real value.
And like you ever seen this,
the S&P 500 for the last 25 years versus controlled for money printing from controlled for M2 supply.
It's a flat line.
It's insane.
I think the Max Payne thing you guys are talking about is actually not even just the corporate thing,
though.
It's going to be cultural.
We're going to see a cultural moment of Max Payne where culture,
as we know it,
and purpose are going to have to be tied to providing actual value and not just being an administrator,
not just being a manager,
not just being a paper pusher,
not just being somebody who's like ideating like ideas are cheap.
Like every five seconds,
I'm getting five,
15,
20 new ideas from other people,
let alone the ones that I'm generating myself.
And then they're like,
you could do this.
And I'm like,
I could,
but that's not helpful.
Like what I need is actual progress and action.
I think that's what we're going to see is,
as you said,
these corporations are going to be forced and actually doing things again.
But I think the way in which that happens is,
you know,
they're going to hit the brick wall of consequences and the brick wall of consequences.
You can't just buy your own Ponzi anymore.
You can't just pump your own bags because guess what?
There is no more pumping that's going to be happening right now.
You have a deflationary asset that is now the new base layer.
And by the way,
what that means is if you are decreasing in the value you're providing,
you are decreasing in your own value as well.
The dildo of consequence will be pumping,
and it is definitely not lubed.
I knew that's what you were thinking.
I knew it.
Maybe he's pouring his heart out,
and Zach was just waiting to say dildo.
I knew it.
Of consequence.
J.D.'s point is well taken.
The Great American Short just dropped.
Look,
I got to pump up your numbers,
guys.
You need way more retarded shit going on right now.
I love it.
Hey,
I will say you have the best short,
which was your prepare your anus.
It was so good.
You got to send me that one.
I haven't looked at it.
Now the new short is the dildo of consequence will not be lubed.
The dildo of consequence will be pumping.
Well,
maybe that's a good segue to read.
We have one comment.
Oh,
here we go.
We just need to wait for ISM to go above 50,
and then altcoin season.
I'm expecting Bitcoin to go stagnant and dip,
and for altcoins to run.
I feel there's a pretty big dildo of consequence waiting for this,
gent.
Somebody tell me what ISM means.
International shit coin mobile.
You're probably not right,
wrong,
Robert,
but I'm also,
you know,
oh,
is that Robert?
Oh,
no,
Biden.
But I do think we're going to get to a supply institute of supply management.
Okay,
got it.
Okay.
You're probably not wrong,
Robert.
I think the,
the person who actually,
I think has been the best on all of this from my take has been income sharks.
I don't know if you guys have followed that guy on X,
but guy or girl,
I have no idea.
It's just a shark,
but it's a really good investment shark.
But actually,
this is the exact same thesis,
actually,
that the income sharks has an income sharks has been pretty spot on about their
calls.
And they're like,
all right,
next is ETH.
And then ETH pumped what,
15% today.
And then it's like,
after ETH,
guess what's coming is all coin season.
So I think I'm hoping and I'm optimistic that we're going to get a little bit
more of a Bitcoin pump before that,
or we're just going to see fricking chaos.
Because again,
like I did do a quick research and the U.S.
marshals is where Bitcoin was traditionally custodied prior to 2025 with the
executive order is it would be at a different agency,
but then they would move to custody at the U.S.
marshals because they have the auction opportunity.
So they have the way to move it out of the government in,
in their org.
But it'll be interesting to see if that is,
if their ledger is the only ledger of actual Bitcoins on the books,
because treasury was supposed to create something after the executive order in
January,
February,
whenever it was,
did they,
and was anything transferred to them?
We don't know.
So what was the read the ISM comment again,
now that I know what it means,
I'll put it up.
Uh,
not our Robert,
the ISM to go above 50.
I'm excited.
I don't understand macro well enough to.
So is that saying that things are getting more expensive from supply like
manufacturing?
Uh,
like John Deere is now more expensive.
Caterpillar.
I think,
I think that's the,
I don't know.
We can ask,
we'll ask the Grok,
but,
um,
yeah,
I,
I,
I mean,
I guess I get,
you know,
okay.
So all of that hypothetically,
like it always,
it just kind of comes down to,
um,
I really,
I,
I do think that I don't,
I don't think that,
um,
the having is relevant anymore.
I think it's totally,
I just,
it's like not relevant.
Um,
it's not enough supply for it to matter.
I disagree actually.
Uh,
I disagree specifically because the most important aspect of that is going to be
is I think it's actually not necessarily going to be a,
a,
an impact on the monetary aspect of it,
but it's going to be more an impact on the mining profitability aspect of it.
And so I think what's going to be interesting is to see once institutions level
off is then what happens when it starts to be,
um,
what starts to happen when the biggest piece is actually the fee structure on
the backside.
Lightning's gonna have an impact on that.
All these L2s are gonna have an impact on that,
but it's going to be really,
really interesting to see as we start getting to a place where sovereigns are
actually,
doing their transactions,
settled,
final in Bitcoin.
You know how much paper Bitcoin comes out.
Cause I think the biggest thing is going to be how much paper Bitcoin,
cause paper Bitcoin is already in existence.
The question is going to be how much paper Bitcoin is going to be tolerated by
the system.
What does that have to do with the having?
I'm talking about from a price perspective.
Um,
I don't think the having is going to impact Bitcoin price.
I think that's because there's just going to be less,
um,
um,
because there's going to be less available new supply.
I don't know.
it's going to be interesting.
I just say,
I do think here,
here's a hot day.
We're going to still have a,
still a take.
I think,
I think governments are going to get in here and they're going to,
they're going to start to mine at a loss.
And I'm not sure that the security budget matters at all.
Like we're worried about the fees happening and miners protecting the fees.
Um,
when a government can come in there and mine Bitcoin at a loss and create it,
their own templates,
like it doesn't even like,
it doesn't matter.
Like no one cares that they're losing money mining.
They're not paying for it anyway.
And they're printing money.
That's what Bhutan has been doing.
Right.
Bhutan has been mining at a loss and they've mined,
I don't know,
over 8,000 Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And nobody knows who holds it,
by the way.
Nope.
Nobody knows what they're doing with it.
No Bhutanese have Bitcoin.
I know people in Bhutan,
they're like,
nobody uses it.
Can't buy it here.
This,
that's,
it's exactly what I was trying to get at earlier.
Like all of these sovereign shenanigans,
uh,
for smaller countries,
like there's no structure in place.
There's no expectation.
Like these Bitcoin are just going to be stolen.
Like,
I don't,
Bitcoin,
aside from transacting,
aside from having the ability to transact or a first world country,
like the United States,
that does have some ability now,
I'm not saying it's perfect,
but does have some ability to create a regulatory structure around the custody
of the asset.
That is,
you know,
somewhat visible by the public.
Okay.
That's one thing.
And even then,
I'm still not sure what the purpose is other than,
Hey,
uh,
we're,
we're defending our place on the ledger,
but man,
Bitcoin really isn't for,
it really is for individuals.
Like having these small little countries on this stuff just means a couple of
rich people at the top stole a bunch of money from their population and bought
it for themselves or mind it for themselves or whatever.
You know,
I just don't,
I don't see it,
um,
as a positive thing.
I agree.
Or just sits there,
right?
Like uninvested money and in the current system,
uninvested money that sits in a,
in cash or,
you know,
it's,
it's essentially useless.
It means nothing to the economy.
And I could see the,
the country of Bhutan not moving their Bitcoin,
just sitting on it,
never selling it,
mining at a small amount.
To me,
that's essentially like a lost key,
you know,
let me know when someone moves it.
I think the most important thing that we need to do in the next decade is get
sailor to agree to rock,
paper,
his own keys to everyone in the world,
uh,
before he dies.
So we can pick one champion to play a game of rock,
paper,
And if they lose,
he can take his keys to a grave.
But if they win,
we have to find some other fun mechanism to distribute his Bitcoin to the rest
of the world.
I'm game if he takes it with him,
right?
But it needs to be fun.
Is that still his family?
Is he maintaining that he's going to take his keys to the grave?
Yeah,
that's correct.
That's his current stance.
So either that or he's going to give it to like Natalie Brunel or something like
that.
Oh,
entertaining.
Would it be though?
If micro strategy,
somehow there was some sort of breach and they lost a huge amount of Bitcoin.
Well,
it's just Coinbase.
They,
they custody at Coinbase.
Their own Bitcoin from one of the large ones.
And like I bit and everything else like that is fidelity.
Fidelity is the only one that custody is their own Bitcoin.
And so we're kind of in this interesting thing about like the,
the,
the black box,
the centralization risk that we was talking about is Coinbase.
Like Coinbase is the problem and they are the new Fort Knox.
Um,
I,
I,
I'm of the opinion that Coinbase was basically sanctioned by the U S by the
feds.
Like they were basically chosen and tell agencies and,
you know,
banks went,
okay,
this one's the winner.
They're farthest ahead.
We're basically going to capture them.
Brian Armstrong is ours.
Make him shave his head,
make him do the humiliation ritual.
I mean,
his,
his,
uh,
his attire is the easiest mission impossible mask ever.
Right.
Right.
I mean,
literally it's just like,
we can use the same mask.
Oh,
we have a mask.
We screwed up.
We can just turn into a Brian Armstrong head.
Right.
I think that that institution is already entirely captured by the U S.
I don't know.
And I think they were given the green light to grow and to do everything
they're doing.
You know,
like you can't,
who knows where the money comes from for,
for them to have grown and succeed and taken market share and do what
they're doing.
Like,
this is the problem with money printing.
This is the problem with black money.
We don't know where it's going or where it came from.
Yeah.
That was a term for dark money,
by the way,
talking specific about the color of the money,
um,
less exposed.
Um,
but anyway,
but,
uh,
I think I have to jump.
So if we have anything else,
maybe we can,
uh,
um,
maybe wrap up.
Anybody have any last thoughts?
I think Corey wins for the coolest background.
This castle was built by the Maltese Knights about a thousand years ago.
And now it is an apartment that I stay in,
in Southern Italy.
It's awesome.
So I could lose all my Bitcoin and probably still,
still be all right.
You probably will.
They're going to steal it from you in your sleep.
It was definitely Freemasons.
Um,
my life yesterday for six euros.
So good.
Fuck.
All right.
Well,
Hey,
thank you everybody for joining in.
See you next time.
Deuces.
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