Showgirls

Host Sicco and guest Craig Cohen unpack Paul Verhoeven’s fearless audacity as the Dutch provocateur who weaponized sex, violence, and razor-sharp satire to shatter Hollywood taboos, defending Showgirls as a hyperbolic big-budget exploitation masterpiece—an unapologetic art-house fever dream exposing Vegas as a brutal vice machine where unreliable dreamers like Nomi claw for reinvention amid pimps, push-downs, and NC-17 nudity, proving Verhoeven’s obsession with Jesus-like resurrection, female exploitation, and moral void turns trash into timeless provocation.

Creators and Guests

Host

Craig Cohen

Host

Sicco

What is The Director's Chair Network?

Join Ryan and many featured guests and other hosts as they break down and review a variety of directors and their films!
So far, this podcast has featured films from Edward Zwick, John Hughes, Brian De Palma, and Michael Mann.
Soon, we will feature Edgar Wright, Sam Peckinpah, Paul Verhoeven, and David Fincher!

0:15
Welcome ladies and gentlemen who are watching and or listening to the director's chair. And in this director's
0:22
chair we will look at Paul Ferhovven. My guest at this time the legendary Craig
0:29
Cohen. Craig, how are you doing today? I'm good, Sego. Thank you. Uh, it's always a pleasure to to chat with you
0:35
and more importantly, it's a true pleasure to uh talk the legendary Paul
0:42
Verhovven. Uh, he was a big big uh
0:48
director that I was a fan of when I really started to get into, you know, the the I really really got into with,
0:55
you know, Tarantino. Uh yeah, and maybe like Steven Soderberg.
1:01
Um but yeah, what made him stand out to you? The audacity. I mean, and and I think
1:07
that was the main thing that like I think the European sensibilities and just the audacity, I think, is a good
1:15
word, but you know, you know, no hang-ups, so violence was on the table,
1:22
sex was on the table. uh an overall rawness
1:27
uh but also that sense of satire and I think that's one thing that a lot of people miss with with Verhovven. It's
1:34
amazing to me that somebody can watch like Robocop or even more importantly Starship Troopers and not see the
1:40
satire. Um uh and of course Showgirls isn't a satire on purpose, but
1:51
it kind it's kind of thought of. You have to be it's there's tits everywhere. Um so I made this compiled this little
1:58
list because obviously unlike you you came into contact with Paul for Hovind
2:04
probably around 1985 maybe 1987. 1985 was when Flesh and Blood came out that
2:09
came out in the United States and then 1987 of course was Robocop which basically put him on the map.
2:15
Yeah. And I grew up with Paul for Hovind. Um he
2:22
was the premier director in the country and there was no film industry until
2:27
Paul Verhovven started making movies. That's basically it. He started making movies in the early '7s and he was a big
2:33
part of what was then the Dutch sexual revolution which basically he would just you know make movies to shock people uh
2:42
spice everything up uh because he thought it was all boring and unrealistic and and
2:48
everything was geared towards showing the lives of u doctors and and people of
2:54
the elites. And basically what Paul Verhovven did in his Dutch cinema was basically show what life was like for
3:01
Dutch people, the regular ones, the ones who within go to big schools like he did cuz um people may not know this, but he
3:08
was actually he's actually he has holds master degrees in math and physics.
3:14
So he's a Sheldon basically and it shows whenever you see footage of him
3:20
directing. Mhm. Yeah. He probably has a bathroom schedule. Anyway, so I I made this little compiled
3:26
this little list of um all the complaints people have had about Paul
3:32
Verhovven in Holland over the years. And I was kind of curious to see if this
3:38
holds up compared to your many critics who complain about Paul Verhovven. So
3:43
the critics complain that he's an iconoclast. Number two, he's not a moralist. Most
3:51
movie makers are moralists. He is absolutely not a moralist. All his movies are just bereft of kind of
4:00
any kind of personal opinion. He just shows it for what it is. It's like, hey, I'm making a movie about Nazis and
4:07
they're pretty young people and they go to war. Uh, one of them actually causes
4:13
the war. And so he makes no comment on that. So people assume, oh, because he's not a moralist, he must be the Nazi
4:19
then. That's not exactly true, is it? So, three, he is absolutely obsessed
4:25
with Jesus of Nazareth. Obsessed. He even wrote a book about it. And in all
4:31
his movies, including this one, there is something about Jesus. There is or a in
4:37
this case, there's no Jesus whatsoever because Jesus would not be in Las Vegas
4:42
except to cuddle all the strippers and kick everybody out of the casino because they're users or whatever they are.
4:49
Anyway, so Holland is a artist town,
4:54
right? Over the centuries, we've had quite a few. We've had Rembrandt and we've had Vincent F and Mlan and we had
5:03
a bunch. So throughout the ages, artists like this choose a medium to express
5:10
themselves. And that's something people don't get. This is a artist who absconded his
5:18
parents wishes to become a mathematician in some high school. Instead, he chose
5:23
art. And his art, his canvas was film. Because, as he always argued, if you're
5:29
an artist and you're living in the 20th century, you wouldn't paint. You would have moving pictures. And that's
5:36
something people don't realize. He's painting. His movies are art.
5:43
Yeah. So that would be my top five. So I'm kind of interested in did did this any of this resonate
5:49
with any of the critics throughout his career in the United States.
5:55
I I don't think the films that Verhovven made in America
6:02
really engaged critics enough for them to get deep into his film making uh
6:10
process if you will. I think the only film that really probably got any serious
6:18
critical attention and you know critics at least got the theme behind it was was
6:24
probably Starship Troopers. But aside from that, I mean, I I don't really remember
6:31
critics giving Verhovven any kind of uh consideration
6:38
probably beyond the films he had made prior to coming to America. Uh and it's
6:44
funny because you know, you look at a film like Robocop and it's it's a it's a movie Verhovven famously didn't want to
6:50
make. And uh like most great decisions uh we make in this life, his wife convinced him to uh cuz she clearly saw
6:57
the you know the potential in the script. But I I I think the the main thing that I think
7:04
the gig I think the main thing that that that that critics really didn't didn't get was that like you know
7:10
Robocop not directed by Verhovven. Um it's a very very different film and I
7:17
think that kind of dubtales you see that in the sequels. Yeah. Oh no absolutely. I mean there's one Robocop in my opinion.
7:25
Yeah. And and it's funny because I think it kind of dubtales into Showg Girls in the sense that
7:32
no other filmmaker could have made Showg Girls for good or for bad. U and and I think Joe Essterhos
7:40
definitely needs to be part of this conversation because no other filmmaker uh or screenwriter could have written
7:45
the film. And I do want to sort of get in front of this right away and say by
7:50
no means am I saying that Showg Girls is a great film, but at the same time I'm going to say that I think a lot of
7:57
people consider it a bad film without really taking the time to consider it. And I
8:04
want to say that's fine if if if you think this is Showgirl is a bad movie. It's completely your prerogative.
8:12
That's always a personal taste. Exactly. But I think it, you know, it kind of became a punching bag. Uh, and
8:19
again, by no means am I going to Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And it, and it's actually, it's actually a a shame
8:27
more than anything else because if you look at it, um, I don't know what the rating system over there is like,
8:33
but I mean, here we've got, you know, the G, PG, PG-13r. And when Showg Girls was coming out,
8:39
there was a big discussion about, you know, creating a rating that would allow
8:45
for more intense film making, you know, and not be X-rated, which was
8:51
The Kiss of Death. So, they came up with this NC I I looked into this. This was purposely
8:57
NC7. Yes. And and and ironically, the most expensive NC17
9:03
movie ever made. Well, because yeah, because this pretty much killed
9:08
the NC17 rating from a theatrical exhibition perspective. I mean, there
9:14
were even, you know, theaters that refused to carry it anyway. Um, and I
9:19
think the whole thing was a, you know, Yeah. And and and it's it's funny because if you watch the movie
9:27
and and I don't know if it's it's it's just the fact that I don't really watch movies through that
9:33
lens, but I mean there's nothing in this film that
9:39
doesn't seem any more extreme than what you'd see in a typical R-rated film.
9:46
I don't think so. But this movie, this movie got people's feathers ruffled
9:54
and that was the whole point. That's what Paul Forhovven does. That's
9:59
Yeah. Well, and I think that's what makes him happy in some way. I still think he wants recognition and I still think he wants
10:05
people to see his art for what it is, but in reality, I think he does this stuff and he dials it up to 10 because
10:12
that's what he's doing here. He's dialing it up. I mean, every bit everything he does is hyperbolic. Everything from the lighting to the way
10:20
it's shot to uh the way the shots are panned, uh all the noise to all the tits
10:26
everywhere, the full frontal nudity, the way the dialogue is clipped because it's all very clipped dialogue. I don't know
10:32
if you've noticed, but it's not like people have long stretched out sentences. This isn't the king's speech,
10:38
right? So, this is all on purpose. This is all Paul Verhovven trying to show you
10:43
what Las Vegas is really like. It's not your dream. It is a sex industry. It's
10:50
brutal. And it's a a m an industrial machine to turn uh your vices into money
10:58
for the people who own it. And that's what this entire movie is about.
11:03
And yeah, who functions in that? Well, and that's the main critique that I liked uh that I
11:10
think Paul Farhovven likes as well is like the the it's almost you could put it as a tagline for the movie show
11:16
girls. It's about surviving in a world populated by [ __ ]
11:22
because that's what it is. Everybody in that movie is an absolute [ __ ] except one person.
11:28
Yep. Molly. Molly. And that's interesting
11:33
um because we all know Verhovven and we all know how he works with dreams and how he kind of messes with reality. You
11:40
never know if it's real or not. You never know if if the m if the protagonist is is because they're always
11:46
unreliable. All all his protagonists are all unreliable. Robocop is an unreliable
11:51
narrator because he gets switched off, right? Uh Total Recall, Doug has
11:57
basically been brainwashed. He's unreliable. uh basic instincts. Shooter is drunk all the time,
12:03
right? The Michael Douglas's character. He's drunk all the time. He's unreliable. I mean, he gets into bed
12:08
with a serial killer. He's nuts, right? And ironically, what people complain
12:13
about about Show Girls, you know, the the way people are screaming at each other and how it's all so unrealistic.
12:20
Okay, so look at Basic Instinct, which is considered a genre classic. They're
12:25
doing the same thing. That's just his style. That's just you have to accept it. It's just Paul Verhovven films it
12:31
this way. It's just going to happen and nobody's going to tell him different because Paul Verhovven is the master of his own art. There's no way. And of
12:38
course this is Paul Verhovven at the height at the peak of very peak of his powers, right? He had hit after hit
12:43
after hit. So now he gets to make the movie he wants to make. That's always typical of great directors, right? They
12:50
they they build on their legacy and then finally they get to make a movie that is just so ambitious that they're scared of
12:58
it and it's something them.
13:04
Yeah. Well, every name a director, they've all done this. It's they all have like this this
13:10
Yeah. Titanic of a movie. Yeah. Well, no. And that's the most remarkable thing about this movie is
13:17
because I'm always amazed that this movie even
13:23
got made at the level it got made. It's it's a big budget exploitation movie at
13:29
the end of the day. And the fact that on purpose Verhovven and uh Esther House were able
13:37
to sell MGM on this idea, that must have been a heck of a pitch meeting. And you
13:43
know, I think a lot of it is I think very simply Paul Hovind was
13:49
printing money. Well, yeah. Well, no, especially, you know, all he had to do was say, "Hey, Joe Hester House is a great script. It's
13:56
going to be out show about Show Girls in Vegas." They were like, "How much money do you need?"
14:01
Yeah. How much money do you need? I mean, after Robocop, after Total Recall, after
14:06
u Basic Instinct, how much money do you need, Paul? We love your stuff because you're making us rich. I think that's
14:13
and then they got the final product and I mean there was some scuttlebutt before
14:20
of course because he actually negotiated to get the NC17 rating because he wanted to make
14:26
a movie like this. Yeah. He wanted to make a big budget movie that was for adults.
14:33
Yeah. This wasn't for kids. It's not intended for kids. It's not intended for for um the weak of heart
14:42
because it's a serious subject to him, a very serious subject because this is basically about uh exploiting women and
14:50
there's a theme, a common thread throughout all his movies from the very first which was about prostitution in in
14:57
the red light district to the last one he's made up till now which is Benadeta.
15:02
It's always about violence against women. He's depicting it. And this one is kind
15:10
of in the middle. And if you look at it from the first one to Benardeta, it fits
15:15
right in the theme. Yeah. It just fits right in. It's just the way he sees it. And it's like, okay, this is
15:20
what I'm going to make. I'm not going to make anything else. And when he does make something other people want that
15:26
he's not all on board in, then you get Hollow Man. Yeah.
15:32
Yeah. Which which I will cover at some point. Yeah. Oh, show girls. Yeah. Okay. So,
15:37
basically what he did was he said, "Okay, um, instead of paying me 7
15:42
million, just give me points on the back end, right?" Which is smart because this movie made a ton of money. That's
15:49
something people don't want to admit to because they're always clamoring, well, you know, it did bad at the box office.
15:55
It didn't do bad at the box office. It wasn't in enough theaters. It was only in 1300 theaters when there was a
16:02
at that time you had like 2500 to 3,000 right? So it still came in second on opening
16:09
weekend behind seven. If it had had all the theaters it would have still been in second place
16:16
but it would have made more money opening weekend and then it would have made its money back easy because it
16:21
would have been break even right out of the gate. But a phenomenon called licensing and
16:29
distribution which is like uh hard copy sales of VH test tapes and DVD sales and
16:35
Blu-ray shows a very different picture. This is the one of the if not the best seller for MGM. This makes more money
16:42
than Bond. This is there are like a 100 million in the plus. So Paul for Hovind
16:49
did okay on this and when people claim yeah it was a failure critical failure really all I
16:56
mean that was his intention to piss off the critics that's why he made a movie like this right why else would you
17:03
otherwise he would have put stuff in there like he would have made it Oscar bait he could have made it very tragic
17:09
right and then it would have been Oscar bait but it's not instead we got what we got because Fhovven loves this
17:17
Yeah. And and and I think the the the biggest
17:23
historical complaint with this movie uh and Verhovven has since sort of gone on
17:29
record and taken full ownership of this and and apologized um
17:36
is really Elizabeth Berkeley's performance. Poor Beth. Poor Beth.
17:41
And I Yeah. A and I think that's sort of what really
17:49
redirects this movie into, for lack of a better word, like camp territory.
17:55
And it it's funny because anytime you watch a performance in a movie, and we
18:01
talked about this on Ryan's Michael Man coverage with uh Al Puccini,
18:07
uh especially in Heat, is when an actor is doing something,
18:12
uh there's two things going on. Either it's at the director's sort of suggestion or the director's okay with
18:20
it. In the case of Showgirls, it was a spec specific performance he wanted
18:26
Elizabeth Berkeley to deliver. Otherwise, he would have either fired
18:31
her or she would have had to do a new take because he's famous for that. He would keep you in the room for two days.
18:37
Yeah, he's done that. Well, well, well, and the the problem the problem here, though, is
18:44
this movie pretty much ended Berkeley's mainstream film career.
18:52
So, you can't even say go back and look and let her work sort of speak for her abilities as an actress because nobody's
18:58
ever really gotten to see it Beyonce by the Bell, you know? So, it's it's kind of funny that like uh
19:04
Well, she was in the first Wives Club. Well, yeah. And she actually got good reviews for that. So, not really that.
19:11
But I mean, but I mean, if you ask the average Joe on the street, you know, they're they're going to say not a good
19:17
actress. But I mean, it it's it's funny though when you watch when you watch the
19:22
movie, obviously, she was 100% committed to the performance. Uh, it's a very
19:28
physical performance. Um, I I'm not Yeah. Well, yeah. And I'm not a dancer
19:34
and I, you know, I don't I don't have the the eye to to sort of, you know, be beyond establishing if somebody's got
19:40
rhythm or not, but, you know, all the talk about her being a natural a natural talent and things like that, I buy it.
19:47
Um, Sure. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it it's funny that like the the cheapest shot
19:53
somebody can take of this movie is is is the performances and I think if you want to explain Elizabeth
20:01
Berkeley's performance, you have to explain the theme of this movie
20:07
and then you get into vague territory because this whole thing might just be a dream. This might just be a dream of a
20:14
hooker somewhere who dreams about going to Las Vegas and making it as a
20:19
showgirl. Because if you really look at what happens to her throughout the story, which is kind of
20:27
disjointed in many ways, everybody's out together, right?
20:32
Everybody is is is an adversary except the one person who isn't.
20:38
and she basically has to like do whatever she can, exploit anybody she
20:43
possibly can, gain any advantage she can get in order to get ahead and to win.
20:49
And when she finally wins, she realizes people still think I'm a [ __ ] Because
20:54
that's the theme of this movie. It's about a a girl who doesn't want to be a prostitute anymore. And this is her
21:00
dream. At least she thinks she can escape from that life and from her past
21:05
by reinventing herself as this star showg girl. And it could all be a dream
21:11
because it ends the way it begins even with the same guy because that's how the movie starts.
21:16
It's a girl. She looks good in jeans. She sticks out her thumb to hitchhike.
21:21
It's somewhere, I don't know, in the Rocky Mountain somewhere. I don't know where it is. Looked cold. And so this
21:27
dude picks her up, right? And the minute she gets in the car, she kind of sees
21:36
kind of sizes him up. It's like, what? Who am I getting in the car with? Is he Is he going to cut me into little pieces? Uh, what does he want? Right? Is
21:43
it am I just getting a ride here? And so the minute he says something she
21:48
doesn't like, she whips out a switchblade. And that's the introduction of the character. And that's also the ending of
21:55
the movie. So, this is either a dream or this character because this is a
22:01
character-driven movie because this is not a story. Not really. It's nonsense. It's a child childish dream.
22:08
I This character has no no arc. There's no learning curve here. There's nothing. There's when you start and when you
22:14
finish, it's basically the same thing. It's like the girl learns nothing. Okay, I'm coming into this town to stop being
22:22
a [ __ ] but this town is all about exploiting her as a prostitute.
22:29
That's the theme of the movie. So for Hovind specifically directed her to have this
22:38
reaction to everybody, right? Everybody she meets, she's as soon as she finds this person
22:45
objectionable in some way, they treat her like a piece of meat,
22:51
she just goes off. She just turns into um evil [ __ ] But the minute these
22:57
people are nice to her and see something in her like, oh, you might be you might have some talent or you might be a star or you might you're you're you might be
23:05
a lot nicer than than you look. Then she becomes this like almost childlike like
23:11
like um almost giddy little girl like this teenager who just wants to eat
23:17
potato chips and have hamburgers and enjoy herself, right? So there's this like extreme and in my opinion
23:27
those reactions, you have those basic reactions when you're dreaming.
23:34
So that's what I think is going on here. It's just it's not on the nose
23:40
and usually Forhovven is a little bit more on the nose with things. Robocop is on the nose. I'm making a movie about uh
23:48
Jesus. That's what Robocop is. It's about the resurrection of Jesus. It's about a guy. He gets crucified and he's
23:55
resurrected as a robot and he he um becomes something else and finally he
24:02
finds himself and becomes Jesus of Nazareth. That's for Hovven's obsession.
24:07
Same with Total Recall. It's a dream. Duck Wade in reality is probably in some
24:12
hospital getting lobtomized as we talked about it, you know, when we talked about this movie. So, same here. So, here's
24:20
Elizabeth Berkeley being lambasted for being a bad actress and she's not lambasted for anything else because this
24:26
this this chick is hot. I mean, um, this is one of the most beautiful women I've
24:32
ever seen on screen ever. This girl can take her clothes off and
24:38
she's perfect. Yeah. And that's what Verhovven saw. He's painting a nude. What do artists do?
24:44
They paint nudes. But when it's a painting, then everybody's admiring it. It's like, "Oh, they're worshiping this
24:51
this nude." But when it's a moving picture, then it's somehow dirty, wrong. the actress's fault.
24:59
Interesting reaction. And that's what Paul Forhovven was after in my opinion.
25:05
Yeah. Well, no. And it's it's interesting, too, because one of the sort of things that lends credence to
25:10
your theory is that for all the [ __ ] she brings to situations,
25:17
people just can't help but embrace her and bring her in and try and give her um
25:25
give her opportunities where at the end of the day, you'd be like, "Yes." Yeah. You know what? You know, it's just
25:31
easier not to deal with this [ __ ] You know what I mean? like and the fact that you know she's the center of everyone's universe
25:39
does lend credence to this but at the same time I' I'd like to say sort of that
25:45
it's interesting and and it's one of the things that I think is is uh the most interesting thing about the
25:51
collaborations between Esther Hos and Verhovven is
25:57
uh Esther Hos has never been a subtle screenwriter you know um he's kind of a
26:02
a beach over over the head type of guy. Um, I I I I love him as a screenwriter and
26:09
and I think he's an important part of the Hollywood screenwriter story. Um, and it's kind of unfortunate that a lot
26:15
of screenwriters didn't sort of take the lead from him and really fight for themselves and and fight for the art of
26:21
screenwriting and and fight for their place in in telling stories. Uh, Esther House at one point was the
26:27
highest paid screenwriter ever. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that um
26:34
you know it's it's funny because I think a lot of screenwriters resented him uh and that's and that's probably why uh
26:42
but he earned every cent of every you know dollar that he made. But the funny
26:47
thing I think is with with Verhovven and and Esther Hos as a as a filmmaking
26:53
partnership, if you will, is the way that Verhovven interprets Esther
27:00
Hos's scripts. Um, and it's funny because, um, it's been a while since I've read it, but um,
27:07
Esther Hos has written a couple of biographies or autobiographies. Uh, one of them is American Animal. Um,
27:15
right. and or Holly W what's it called? Hollywood Animal. I think Hollywood Elm
27:21
either way. And he goes into detail, heavy detail about all of his films, including Basic Instinct and Showg
27:28
Girls. And you know, he's very much on the record as not agreeing with some of the choices that Verhovven made, but uh
27:35
which is funny because like you said, Verhovven's interpretation adds
27:42
a level to the film that wouldn't have been there if another director had picked up the script and made it. Uh but
27:48
at the same time, Esther Hos was writing a script that he knew Verhovven was gonna direct. So, uh
27:56
so yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were in cahoots. They were giddy with this stuff. It's
28:02
obvious. I It shows it obviously. Here's an interesting thing. When asked Verhovven at some
28:10
point said well if you look at Ingmar Burkeman movies Ingmar Burkeman always said that film
28:17
making is always instinct everything you do is instinct you make choices and
28:22
those choices are whatever they are and here's the mathematician saying this
28:28
it's like there's nothing you to calculate here you just go with your goods and so he says throughout through
28:34
this movie I learned that you know I'm right 80% of the time, not 100.
28:41
I mean, if you look at how he started and and what if it's just started, if he
28:47
how he how he made his start in the States, it was with Robocop and they had like this huge problem
28:53
finding the right actor, right? Because the studios wanted Schwarzenegger because they were thinking Terminator.
29:00
And he said, and obviously he's like, "No, it's not going to work because because of the suit. we need a really
29:06
thin guy otherwise he won't fit in the suit. So they were like yeah yeah yeah so at some point Michael Ironside you
29:12
know because for Hovven always wanted to work with him and so and they ended up with Weller
29:20
probably for the same reason why they ended up with Elizabeth Berkeley uh an
29:25
unknown and probably the same reason why they picked Gina Gerson. Um, American actors
29:33
have a hard time getting it, have a hard time understanding what Paul Forhovven
29:39
wants. And that's how you make a movie work. It's is a director
29:44
uh convincing his actors what kind of movie they're in. And once they know
29:49
what movie they're in, then it's fine. Then they find their character. Um, and
29:55
in in the case of Gina Gershan, it's obvious because she carries this movie,
30:01
right? Her her she's really convincing as Crystal and she's like the the
30:08
nemesis slash older sister slash whatever it is. It's it's um the main
30:16
character is basically looking at her future as a showgirl when she looks at Crystal. And at first she looks at her
30:22
and thinks, "Wow, she's a goddess. That's what I want." But that's now how Crystal is acting
30:28
throughout this, right? She always has this like kind of like a sardonic little smile and she doesn't really take
30:35
anything seriously. And like everyone else, she's looking for a way out in
30:41
that Verhovven has a great gift for casting the right people.
30:48
And people complain about Elizabeth Berkeley, but I think she was perfectly cast for this because that's precisely
30:53
the person he wanted. Someone who seems somehow innocent
31:00
but also completely completely evil. Because if you look at the actions of
31:06
Nomi and we'll get into the name in a minute. If you look at her actions,
31:12
she's not a really good person, is she? There's nothing in her actions that are,
31:18
you know, remotely redeemable from the get-go. I mean, she whips out a
31:23
a a switchblade at a person giving her a ride. I'd kick her out of the car.
31:31
Excuse me, could you leave the car, please? Well, yeah. And then also even right to
31:38
bear arms. Yeah. And then even her her first interactions with Molly who's like
31:44
genuinely showing her kindness and she she does everything she can to to be
31:49
like you know get the response of like why should I help you like yeah the only innocent person in the
31:56
entire film and she which kind of gave me pause
32:01
because I I you can sort of take it as okay she's the token victim right
32:07
because they have to show this this everybody's evil and so someone will suffer right and you need a example to
32:16
make this point or Molly doesn't exist
32:22
Molly is an aspect of Nomi's character the innocent part
32:28
that gets raped the part that gets taken advantage of because they meet uh after
32:35
her ride uh loses her luggage cuz the guy she was with stolen. And she
32:43
freaks out and she doesn't just freak out. I mean, she just has a tantrum, which is weird when you think about it.
32:49
And so she starts beating on someone's car and that's Molly's little car. And
32:54
somehow this Molly takes pity on her and buys her junk food. And apparently couple of weeks later, slash cut, she's
33:02
living in Molly's trailer home and she's going to work. work is stripping, which I suspect,
33:11
considering how good she looks on stage, she had been doing for a while, not just in Vegas, but somewhere else. She just
33:18
moved to Vegas because that's where you make your money as a stripper, right? That's stripper Valhalla.
33:24
And that's what this movie is. It's a kind of a documentary about
33:31
sex Valhalla in America, right? You go to Vegas to go to strip bars and to see naked
33:38
women and to gamble and to have lots of food and then you leave and whatever
33:44
happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. That's the saying, right? Yeah. Well, that's what our friend for Hovind
33:49
is showing you. It's like this is this is what you're doing. This is the industry. This is these women are are
33:57
basically meat for the grinder and they're not nice people because if you
34:02
survive in an industry like that, if you somehow thrive in it, then well, this is what it
34:09
takes. This is the kind of character you have cuz know me. And here comes the
34:15
name. It's not her real name, of course. She's reinventing herself. And why know me? Why not Naomi? Well, know me.
34:24
You have to know me. You must see me for who I really am because I am not a
34:30
prostitute. You must know me. I am a talented dancer. I am know so know me.
34:36
And she gets angry with every character in the movie that doesn't know her that just sees the
34:43
prostitute and the people that sort of try to know her
34:48
like uh the bouncer guy who hits on her all the entire movie. She has a kind of
34:54
well okay let's see what this really is and she sort of push pulls him you know to see if he's relationship material and
35:00
of course obviously he proves he isn't but know me is basically her way of
35:06
saying to people uh you have to look past the surface and that's what Hovind
35:11
is doing with this movie look past the surface look past the glitter look past the lights look past all the bombast
35:17
look past the superficiality of Las Vegas what you see is something very
35:22
nasty the longer you look, the more you're going to the more you're going to push it away. And of course, that's what
35:29
happens to this movie. And the critics and the audience and they killed the
35:35
messenger for it. They kill poor Liz Berkeley. She proves Paul Verhovven's
35:41
point. The girl never was in another movie again. Why? Why? She could have been in
35:48
a dance movie. She could have been in Coyote Ugly, right? She could have danced on the bar. should have looked
35:53
great better than the chicks that were in it. Interesting. Very interesting. That's
35:58
what makes this a very very influential movie because people are still talking about this 20 years 25 years later.
36:07
Yeah. Yeah. And well and and I I I think
36:13
another aspect of this movie we need to talk about is just overall
36:19
um the production values, the look of it. Um it looks like a
36:25
million bucks. Um and and I mean of course it does. I mean every Verhovven
36:31
movie looks like a million bucks. But I I think again at the end of the day,
36:36
this movie was judged on its budget too because this could have been made as a
36:43
sort of a grindhouse style movie uh and
36:48
probably been just as effective. But the fact that it was presented
36:53
uh in this, you know, shiny, you know, uh pristine
37:01
package. I I I think it threw a lot of people off because at the end of the day, it's a
37:07
very dark movie. It's a very um uh
37:12
you know, it's not easy subject material. So, I think it was like part of the the way this movie was sold, you
37:19
know, the the darkness wasn't really part of the marketing of this film. And I do want to talk about
37:26
Yeah. And and I do want to talk Yeah. And I do want to talk about this because I know uh our buddy Sean um from
37:33
the Last of the Action Heroes uh podcast network um brought this up.
37:38
Happy Funk Network. Yeah. The Last Horah. How sad it was. how how
37:44
disastrously that was snatched from us. Yeah. Uh unfortunately, but I I do know
37:50
that that he is not a fan of the direction this movie goes in. Uh and
37:58
it's a valid take, but at the same time, the movie has to go there.
38:03
There has to be a moment. There has to be a moment that
38:09
snaps know me out of it, right? Um because they can do whatever they want. Goes bad.
38:14
Yeah. They can do whatever they want to to Nomi. Nobody can handle it. Um she can roll with the punches for for
38:21
lack of a better term. And the irony is nothing touches her in this film. Yes, she's upset,
38:28
but nothing really touches her. She's not the one who gets violently raped. Mhm.
38:34
No, that's her friend. or this happened all happened to her before and it's just a co it's a it's a
38:42
conglomerate of all her memories. So that's an interesting take. Well,
38:47
that's my take anyway. But yeah, it's it's Sean's take was well this is a it's
38:53
a satire. It's a black comedy. So it should have it should be it shouldn't go there. It should should have more
39:00
lean into the comedy more and it should be funny and well that's the problem.
39:06
what they're doing there isn't funny at all. Not to pull for Hovind. And so he's not he may not be a moralist, but he
39:14
abores violence against women. And in his opinion, Las Vegas in its entirety
39:21
is just gross. That's what this movie proves. It's like
39:26
there's nobody nobody likable anywhere
39:33
because the people who are likable, they don't survive. They end up in hospital.
39:39
I found that amazing. And I found this reaction amazing. It's like, yeah, I was disappointed with the movie because it
39:46
wasn't funny or it didn't go somewhere funny. So, I would feel better about Las Vegas and I would feel better about
39:52
what's happening to this woman, right? Because that's the American way. If you make a movie where you're showing
39:58
something really gruesome and their things are blowing up and and it's just it's terrible, you know, someone's head
40:04
is being chopped off, then you just end it with a joke. You make it funny. Haha. And then everything is okay again
40:11
because we didn't mean it. We were making a joke. That's basically what what that says. Then then you can present it as entertainment. And here's
40:18
Paul Verhovven saying, "Yeah, let's not go there. This isn't funny at all. This is reality. I've talked to 200 uh
40:25
strippers and dancers and prostitutes because they did some serious research, right? And they had such fun doing it. I
40:31
mean, you can just imagine like him and Joe Esther talking to uh all the major
40:37
players in Vegas and you know, they're big names, so of course people are going to show up and tell them everything they know. It's like, oh yeah.
40:44
And he said, well, basically every note I took, it all ended in the movie ended up in the movie. Everything that happens
40:51
is someone someone's anecdote. So that that's not a pretty picture. That's not funny. Haha. There's no satire in there.
40:58
Well, to a degree. To a degree because there's the typical
41:03
Paul Forhovven uh kind of, you know, uh body humor where uh she's finally
41:09
getting with u the bouncer guy. And so they're making out and it's like, I
41:16
mean, this isn't just making out. This isn't Hollywood making out. This is a Dutch movie making out. There's tongues
41:21
everywhere. Nipples are pierced, you know. Um, and so at some point she says,
41:27
"I can't." And he says, "Why? Why? Why?" I said, "I'm on my period." Of course, he doesn't believe it. What guy would? I
41:32
mean, we're here. And she goes, "Check." So he sticks a finger in there and he comes out and it has blood on it. He's
41:38
like, "Hey, I got towels." But she leaves in a huff, right? That's really
41:44
Dutch. That's if you watch it like a Dutch movie from the 70s, there's a lot of that stuff going on. That's that's
41:49
what he came from. That's that's what he finds funny. It's like, yeah, now we're gonna present them. I mean, you don't
41:55
really get sex in this film. You don't get it because once she was on a period
42:00
and in the other one, it's underwater. You don't see anything. It's just waves.
42:07
Yeah. Holy was having a laugh while he was filming that. It's like, okay, now everybody's going to be expecting
42:14
sex, but you're not going to get it. Yeah. The only sex you're going to get is forced.
42:19
Mhm. When three guys forced themselves on an innocent woman who didn't ask for it.
42:25
Mhm. Who's just a fan? Yeah. Well, and and then also the the
42:32
simulated sex that we get where, you know, um Smith famously says to her, you
42:38
know, uh you were [ __ ] him without [ __ ] him. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's Paul for Hovind's
42:45
commentary on the on on that phenomenon because that's not European. We don't do that here at all.
42:51
Yeah. Yeah. You just you just if you do that, you just go to a prostitute, you know, takes 15 minutes and you pay maybe
42:57
€4 and and you get to get sucked and you and you get to have sex and you come and that's it. You know, it's just okay.
43:04
Saturday night, you had dinner, you've been to a movie, uh you're out with your buddies, you pick a prostitute, and you
43:10
have fun, right? And so in America it's like well you go to with your buddies to a a strip bar and you go to the buffet
43:18
and then you get a lap dance right for your birthday or something. Yeah. Paul does not get that. Well, he gets it
43:26
but he he kind of Well, there's the satire. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and the other
43:31
funny thing is you mentioned the scene where, you know, uh she says she's on her period and he calls her bluff. But
43:38
um it seems like that's a tool that Nomi uses because uh earlier in the film
43:44
foreshadows Yeah. Robert Dobby. Yeah. You know, asked her why she missed
43:49
her shift and she says, "I had my period." So it it it was funny. To bleed all over the stage, do you?
43:56
Yeah. Bad for business. Uh uh but it's interesting because you know there's a lot of those sort of
44:04
um what Czechov's gun type moments and one that I noticed watching the movie again for this podcast and I've watched
44:11
the movie a dozen times probably but I didn't really pick it up until this time is how many times they reference
44:17
falling down those stairs, right? Uh, so it's like of course it
44:23
needs to culminate with somebody being pushed or quote unquote falling down
44:28
those stairs, but um it it's they even foreshadow it with the other girl who avenges herself, right? It's
44:35
it's and that's why I'm thinking this is this entire thing is like a dream state. It has to be because it's so on the nose.
44:43
Yeah. Uh but yeah, and my favorite thing about this movie
44:49
and we'll get into the ending, but my favorite thing is at the very end of the movie and when she gets into the u truck
44:56
of the same guy and they're arguing over where her luggage is, you see the sign where she's going next,
45:03
right? Los Angeles. She's going from Las Vegas to Los
45:08
Angeles. She's going from bad to worse. That's what Paul Forhovven is saying. It's a commentary. Yeah,
45:15
that's if there had been a sequel, it would have been about how Nomi is in
45:22
the porn industry trying to break into mainstream acting. It would it would have written itself,
45:28
right? Yeah. Yeah. You would have run into uh the Harvey Weinstein of this world.
45:34
Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, one interesting thing that sort of and and this is another thing I noticed for the first
45:41
time last night when I watched it again. Um and this this kind of gives, you know, credence to your theory, though.
45:47
Uh when they're at the Paradiso, uh at the Andrew Carver party, um Nomi's
45:53
dancing with Zach Kyle Mccclaclin, uh and his gloriously ridiculous
45:58
haircut. Um, I I I I can't get over the entire presentation of him as a
46:04
character. You either like or dislike Kyle Mclofflin's haircut. It's just what it
46:09
is. Uh, I I think he's perfect in this film, and it's unfortunate that he doesn't see
46:15
that. Um, but if you watch that scene in the background, you see um the Thai
46:23
businessman from the boat show dancing with Nikki, who was the other girl who
46:28
went to the boat show. and I never noticed him before. Right. Um,
46:33
and that alone he stayed to she stayed for karaoke in the afterparty. Mhm. Mhm.
46:40
But then also it it it's this whole sort of playing with with time because I
46:45
think after the six week time jump from, you know, when she arrives in Vegas to
46:51
when she's dancing at the cheetah Mhm. our whole sense of time is is [ __ ] Uh
47:00
because because a lot happens and you're like, well, does this happen over the period of days, the period of weeks, the period of months?
47:07
Um I mean, is she that talented that she becomes like um uh you know, the new
47:12
girl in into the understudy of the lead. Yeah. To the lead. Uh the lead. And and
47:19
I think uh that businessman being at the Paradiso, well, like for me, I was like,
47:25
well, it's got to be a couple of weeks later, right? Like, and I'm like, how long is he in town for? Or did he go
47:32
away and then come back? Um, but either way, I I I thought it was an interesting
47:38
detail that that he ended up at that at that party. And and like I said, I never
47:44
noticed him before. Yeah, because he's supposed to be what? A heavy roller,
47:49
right? Yeah. An important customer for the casino to be placated to, you know, will'll keep
47:55
him happy with uh free tickets to stuff and and uh show show girls to bang and
48:01
that kind of thing. Yeah. Um so that was definitely
48:07
interesting and and you're interested because that's the suggestion at the end of the movie and that's the ending of it
48:13
is that Nomi's made it. She's the star of the show. She's the goddess. But
48:21
Zach K Mclofflin, the director, finds out about her past that she's been
48:26
trying to hide, right? Oh, I don't know my social security number. Oh, I'm from back east somewhere, you know, from all
48:33
over the place. I've done a lot of stuff. Blah blah blah. Nobody knows anything about her because nobody has to
48:38
know anything about her because it's her dream. You don't introduce yourself in your own dream. You know everything everything about yourself. But you're
48:44
hiding stuff from yourself while you're dreaming. Again, my theory. But Zach finds out, and that's always your worst
48:51
fear, right? Yeah. So, guess what? I found out that you were a hooker and you
48:57
were busted here and here and here and here, and you had possession and and you uh you're violent and you know, you
49:03
assaulted people. And so, he's basically saying, you know, you're going to be a star here and you're going to be very
49:08
valuable to us and you know, you're going to make us a lot of money. And basically what he's saying is, yeah, I'm
49:15
your pimp now. I'm not going to be your boyfriend. I'm your pimp. And she recognizes it. And that's why
49:22
the ending, I mean, if you look at the ending and you just look at basically the story, it's like, why would she
49:28
leave? She's made it. No, she hasn't. Because the dream is not becoming the goddess of the show. The dream is
49:35
getting away from prostitution, getting away from her past. and she finds out,
49:40
"Oh god, I'm the biggest [ __ ] here." Because that's what Crystal keeps telling her. It's like, "No, I can just
49:47
buy you if I want to." Cuz she does. She keeps proving out throughout the movie, "No, I'm a [ __ ] and I do this for money
49:55
and I give my customers what they want." And then Nomi shells her down the stairs
50:02
and she can sue uh she can sue the casino and get a settlement and she's
50:07
actually happy about it cuz she got out. Yeah.
50:13
Right. We should all be thrown down the stairs. Well, yeah. And that's also the the most interesting thing about it is, you know,
50:19
you think when when they when Zach finds out who she really is that, you know,
50:26
the jig is up. But like you said, he sees he just sees dollar signs. I can They
50:32
were worried about They couldn't control her. Yeah. Mhm. How are we going to control this chick?
50:37
I mean, Crystal was a commodity. They knew what what they had there because she'd been a star for ages. So, what we
50:43
going to do? Get Paula Abdul and or get get this girl or get Latoya or No. No.
50:48
Too expensive. And now they have this chick and they can just keep her there in perpetuity because where where is she
50:57
going to go, right? Yeah. Well, apparently back on the road.
51:02
Yeah. Well, and then also they they also show that she's part of this bigger machine that is going to protect
51:09
people like Andrew Carver as well, right? You know, like he's not at our he's not at our casino right now,
51:15
but in two or three years he might be. So he going to be a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to marry you to
51:22
this felon, right? Enjoy your life.
51:28
Yeah. Well, and and and again, like for me, the ending is
51:35
perfect. Um totally. Yeah. Great. The moment that the moment that gets her there isn't. And it's it's it's a
51:41
difficult scene to watch. And and I think that's probably what threw uh you
51:46
know Sean and a lot of other people off is like hey I didn't sign up for this. Uh but one thing Verhovven's great at is
51:53
like you know you're buying a ticket you're going to take the full ride. Um whether
51:58
you want to or not. Um and I think that's the real the real thing that I think a lot of people that
52:04
threw a lot of people off. They were like hey I didn't sign up for this. I signed up for a a fun Vegas movie and
52:12
Verhovven doesn't give you that. He gives you something really really dark and sinister instead. And the the
52:18
funniest part about it is and this is nobody warned them this was a horror movie, right? No. Well, well, no. And and the other
52:24
thing is this is a you know this speaks to the commentary on you know how women are treated in society and violence
52:30
against women is in the scene with Molly you you really
52:36
see the the the violence and you contrast that with the scene where um
52:42
Nomi goes to get her vengeance uh on Carver. you see the initial hit uh but
52:49
from that point all you're seeing is the the kicks from uh a POV perspective if
52:56
you will you're not it's like the Jean Claude Fandam wheel kick
53:02
yeah but you don't you don't see the the violence that is inflicted on on Carver
53:09
aside from from her end of things whereas you contrast that with the fact that we very much saw the violence Ino stole
53:17
this for his movie cuz he loves show girls and he stole
53:22
this for the ending of his movie for uh Death Proof. That's that's the death proof ending.
53:28
The three girls avenging themselves on uh Kurt Russell and they kick him to death.
53:34
But in in in in that scenario, we see the violence. We see Kurt Russell's uh head get smashed. Uh and that's the
53:42
thing. I mean, here we don't see the aftermath of what happened, but if you if you look at at what she does and
53:49
you're keeping score of it, you're like, she really [ __ ] this guy up. Like, you
53:54
almost wonder if he's going to be able to perform ever again. Yep. They're probably going to if that
54:01
actually happened, if it wasn't just a dream, then they're going to have to be wiring his jaw together.
54:07
Yeah. But but the thing is I wonder do you have any take on on on
54:14
the hows or wise of seeing the the violence against Mali and not really seeing it against Carver.
54:21
I think he um he purposely didn't show it um because he wanted to f he wanted to
54:28
focus to be on her and what happened to her because we already know what happened to her. She's very probably did
54:34
the same thing to him. She might have been she might even have gotten a little uh because we he
54:41
ironically he leaves it up to our imagination. Uh but at that point she's fairly psychotic. So that switchblade
54:47
that came out she might have gotten creative with that. You never know. There's a reason why she leaves town really quick.
54:55
Yeah. Yeah. Um she does stop to dress up in uh you know
55:00
uh some new nice. Yes. Uh
55:07
yeah, I it's it's it's it's wild because I I never I never really thought about some of the concepts and ideas that
55:14
you're you're presenting. And like I said, Esther House is a very sort of on-nose filmmaker. So interpreting his
55:22
stuff through the lens of Verhovven is is going to leave you a lot of uh
55:28
interesting questions. very interesting pairing because um I'm used to Verhovven
55:33
working with um Saudike which is his basically his his uh the usual guy he
55:40
writes with and Verhovven is very much a aur director.
55:46
Uh he but he usually picks a book and they just rework that into a scenario,
55:53
right? Like with Soldier Orange, they picked an actual autobiography of an actual person uh the actual um Eric
56:01
Hazelhov and made it into a movie and
56:06
Ferhovven did his take on it. That's not really what happened to to Helov. It's
56:12
kind of kind of an amalgamation of what happened to a lot of guys who uh got
56:17
into a boat and went to England to fight uh Nazi Germany, right? The thing with
56:23
Esther House, we already if you look at Esther's script for Basic Instinct, a
56:28
lot of the things you see aren't on the page. Like the scene where u Sharon Stone
56:36
bears all right, where she basically spreads her legs. That's something that
56:41
happened to Paul Verhovven personally in college at some point, right? So there's a lot of Paul
56:49
Verhovven in all his movies and that's why Jesus Christ keeps showing up.
56:54
That's why um uh violence against women is almost
57:01
a theme in in all of his films. Flesh and blood is almost the same story when you think about it.
57:08
And the same with an earlier movie he did in Holland which was called Spatters which is about three guys who are um
57:15
romantically interested in a girl who works in a burger joint. And so they all try and
57:23
finally she settles for the last one because the first one kills himself after an accident and uh the other one
57:30
turns out to be gay. Verhovven is the dominant partner in this. Yeah. Well well it's also not point I was trying to make
57:36
Yeah. I I think it's not and and Esther House talks about this in his books too is it wasn't really um
57:45
a collaboration in the sense that after the script was done Esther House had a lot of input on set and I think that's
57:51
part of the issues he had and you know why he almost walked from Basic Instinct and um thank goodness the partnership
57:59
ended up the way it did because we got the films that we got but it's sort of easy to see and it's Esther House's best
58:06
the facts. Yeah. But it's also easy and made it art.
58:12
Yeah. Uh it's easy to see Esther House's point of view though because he's a very opinionated guy and uh like I said, he
58:19
he he fought for he fought for his his scripts. Um but again, at the end of the
58:25
day, um you know, thank goodness uh that this collaboration uh wound up the way
58:31
it did. Uh it's amazing. And and again, I I think he's not writing the screenplay for
58:37
Jesus of Nazareth, apparently. Yeah. Hold is still looking for a guy to write
58:43
it. Yeah. Well, I mean, Esther Hos is in his 80s now. Um he's he's had some he's had
58:50
some battles in his life. He's he's battled throat cancer. Um the dude has
58:55
earned whatever he's earned in terms of where he's at now. Um retirement. Again, at the end of the
59:02
day, I really have to say thank goodness that Verhovven and Esther
59:07
House had the stroke to get this movie made. Thank goodness the executives in charge
59:13
of the the purse strings at MGM didn't think twice about what they were paying
59:19
for because we got a movie uh that
59:24
shouldn't have been made, that was made. True. uh and is
59:30
whether or not you think it's a good movie at the end of the day, it's it's it's a remarkable movie and it's
59:36
I think it's good art. Yeah, because that's what he was making. This
59:42
is an art house film done in Hollywood. It's his first art house film in
59:47
Hollywood, but that's what it is. And ironically,
59:52
um, Hollywood wanted him because of his art house movies, because of his Dutch sensibilities. That's why they wanted
59:58
him. The thing is, yeah, we we it's great that you can do that, but we want it this way, right? That's always been
1:00:05
his frustration. It was a frustration in Robocop. was a frustration in Total Recall and it was a frustration in in
1:00:11
Starship Troopers is that um he has all these abilities but they're constantly
1:00:17
reigning him in show girls
1:00:22
that's just an unleashed for Hovind film like it or dislike it. Well, no, and that's the funniest thing
1:00:28
about any kind of you know uh commercial art if you think about it.
1:00:33
Um you know and it's happened with plenty of filmmakers. It's happened with plenty of uh music artists. It's like,
1:00:41
well, do you do you want me or do you want the potential to make money from
1:00:47
me? Cuz it's like, if you want me, let me of having someone as Verhovven. They
1:00:52
don't want to actually have him do what he's good at. Yeah. Because the cache will sell the movie
1:01:01
and that's how we make money, not your stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't go down well with
1:01:08
movie makers. Yeah. So, again, I mean, it's just I I
1:01:15
I'm really thankful every every time I think about this movie uh about the fact that it actually got made. And it also
1:01:23
still stands up. Yeah. You can still It's still very watchable. Yeah. No,
1:01:29
because of the nudity. Yeah. No. And it also makes me disappointed because again, this was
1:01:36
a a a fork in the road in in Hollywood, if you will. Um, and
1:01:44
its failure uh or lack of success theatrically
1:01:49
uh really changed sort of the direction film making could have gone in. We could
1:01:55
have gotten more of these NC17 uh truly adult films, quote unquote.
1:02:03
Perhaps it was sabotaged for that very reason, cuz this movie made a ton of money. It's
1:02:10
just people didn't want to go to a theater to see it. They want to own the videape. They want to own that Blu-ray.
1:02:16
Right. Yeah. Which is a another weird commentary. Yeah. This film is an immense success
1:02:24
and it's being buil as an dramatic failure in every conceivable way in the
1:02:31
critical sense and in in in box office ways and it's just not true.
1:02:38
And that's what that's one of the reasons why I thought well you might be a good person to uh discuss this movie
1:02:44
uh with me. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I and I appreciate it and I think this was a a
1:02:49
really uh man this was a really interesting discussion and and it's I I wasn't sure
1:02:55
where it was going to go but uh man I I I it Perhovven makes movies that are food for
1:03:00
thought and and this every time I see it
1:03:08
I just I have a different take on it and I think well could be this it could be that and that's what good art does.
1:03:14
Yeah. It's what David Lynch was so good at. It's what Stanley Kubri was so good at. It's lost now. But there are still
1:03:22
movies you can enjoy that don't give you comfortable endings, that don't give you
1:03:28
logical conclusions. Not everything is easy. And Showgirl is certainly not
1:03:34
easy. No, it's only easy on the eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Uh perfect
1:03:42
summation. Thank you. Anyway, um, let's talk again and I'll
1:03:49
see you soon. All right. Thank you, Seco. Thank you. Bye-bye.