Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStoryFM. Today, we're indulging our inner super fan. It's Celebrity Toaster Week.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Seth Nelson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. We're joined today by Randall Kessler. He's represented some of the highest profile clients in the country, including judges, national and local politicians, professional athletes, TV stars, and other celebrities, entertainers, and artists. He joins us today to talk about celebrity divorce and how representing celebrity compares to divorces of the unknown. Randall Kessler, welcome to the Toaster.
Randall Kessler:
Thank you guys. I can't wait to ... I don't know if I can't wait to do this or to be done with it. I'm a little bit nervous, but you guys are great.
Pete Wright:
We can't either. No, man. You've been everywhere in your role. I don't know, Seth. Unless you have the perfect starter question, I would like to start talking a little bit about publicity. Can we do that?
Seth Nelson:
We can do that, because I have one question and I think Randy's answer is going to be one word, and then the podcast would be over. So maybe you should start.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. All right. Well, then let's talk about publicity. Randy, my sense is that the big difference between the high-profile divorces and Joe Nobodies like me is the public eye. Can you talk a little bit about what sort of skillset you had to develop as an attorney to help you manage media, along with managing a divorce?
Randall Kessler:
Yeah. And if you don't mind, Pete, I want to focus on the first part of your question, which is the one big differentiator. Because you're right, people ask me, "What is the different between celebrity divorce and divorce?" And really, it's divorce. It's sort of the same question I used to get when they allowed same sex marriage all across the country. "So what's the difference? What is same sex divorce?" And I said, "You know what it's called? It's now called divorce. Same thing." So celebrities, they use the same rules, they use the same proceedings.
Randall Kessler:
But, like you asked, Pete, publicity. We were talking before we started this podcast about the private courtroom we built in our office. Privacy is paramount to a lot of people that are celebrities, and the issue of publicity comes up in 100 different ways. Number one is their value to the publicity. Number two is their value to not having publicity. Number three, what do their public relations experts want? And most of them always want the athlete or the high-profile star to be in the public eye, and this is the one time where they don't want them in the public eye. And sometimes we wrestle with those publicists or those public people that say, "We want to keep their name out there," and we say, "Not here."
Randall Kessler:
A good example of this ... Some friends of mine represented Katie Holmes against Tom Cruise. They would not share with me in a million years any of the details, but what I know is the settlement value to Tom Cruise had to outweigh whatever he agreed to give his wife. In other words, any bad press that comes out of a divorce for big shots might end up costing them more in their career than it does in their marriage. If he doesn't get another movie contract, for example, because something bad came out. And again, I don't know anything bad about Mr. Cruise, but for example, that case settled. Most cases settle.
Randall Kessler:
And publicity rears its head in 100 other ways, and I could talk for hours about what do you do when you get calls and how do you handle the press, but the answer to your question, Pete, is it's a skill I just developed over time. How do you handle the press? How do you deal with the press? How do you deal with your client's desire not to be in the press? Or sometimes the significant other wants to be in the press and we have to say, "You'll get one shot, but this celebrity will get to talk to the press all they want, so their story will be out there much more than yours. Be very, very careful and strategic about ever going to the press." So there's a lot there, Pete, but I hope that starts to touch the tip of the iceberg.
Pete Wright:
Well, it does, it does. And I love the way you talk about it. The big difference is it's divorce, but in my head, it's divorce with potentially more places in front of the decimal. It's just divorce with lots of zeroes.
Randall Kessler:
True. True. But a lot of our people, a lot of the folks we represent are super wealthy, you've never heard of them. I mean, it's unbelievable. I've met people that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars that you and I would never know. They kept it quiet, they stayed under the radar, they're not on social media. It's incredible to me, and many of the celebrities that you would think are super wealthy, really, it's a show. And people like people that are rich. You want to believe that your favorite star hasn't lost all their money and knows how to handle their money, but a lot of them are not as wealthy. So sometimes the world's upside down. But that is the perception, you're right. Celebrities, you think about, "Oh, that's a high dollar case," and sometimes high-profile doesn't equal high dollars.
Seth Nelson:
And I would add to that, Randy ... and I'm sure you've had this same experience where I've had a potential client make a appointment, come in in jeans and a T-shirt worth extraordinary amount of money. Then you have three hours later the guy that comes in in fancy, very expensive Italian suits with his initials on his shirt sleeve and brings out a checkbook that has a Louis Vuitton cover on it and then you look at his financials and he has an extraordinary amount of debt.
Randall Kessler:
You know what? I could give you a hundred stories. I know you'd probably like some, so I'll give you one or two. But we represented a very famous hip hop guy and a producer, and he made a lot of money. We were at mediation until 10:00 at night. I said, "Look, I just bought steak and sushi for the other side. Your spouse and everyone in their room wanted this food, so what can I get you?" He said, "Double stuffed cheese pizza crust from Pizza Hut." I said, "Come on, I'm buying." He said, "Stuffed crust pizza from Pizza Hut. That's my thing." Could have afforded anything, very happy with that. And another guy who founded some of the biggest companies in the world I had not heard of, came in, met with me 20 minutes, wrote me a check for $20,000. I didn't know who he was. He found me on the internet. I would not have presumed that he was as wealthy as he was, but you're right. First impressions and don't judge a book by its cover, there are reasons those cliches stick around.
Pete Wright:
That's fascinating, because as much as we're talking about money and the value of identity in the divorce process, we have to be talking a little bit about the value of celebrity authority, for lack of a better word, power, in the divorce process. How do high-profile clients manage ... or I should say, how do you manage them in the process of giving up control and power in the divorce process?
Randall Kessler:
It's a tough one.
Pete Wright:
I guess in the guise of objectivity?
Randall Kessler:
Yeah, no, no, it's a tough one, because the world is on its head. And it's not just celebrities. You think of the typical ... if you want to be stereotypical and politically incorrect, the wage-earning rich husband and the wife who doesn't do anything to earn money, but she's raised the children and done a lot for the family. That guy has always been in charge. In a divorce, it's even. The playing field is even, and it's very difficult for those people that are used to being in charge and used to saying, "I want this. Make it happen," and they're used to telling lawyers what to do, they're used to telling their accountants what to do, and they have a lot of people that will say yes. It's hard. My job is to say no. My job is to say, "You can't do that, because you do not want to be in front of a judge who will tell your spouse or your significant other that, guess what? They're even in this discussion. They can get you to pay their," whatever it is.
Randall Kessler:
Let's say the guy wants to pay his wife $10,000 a month and we go to court and the judge says, "Sir, you're going to pay your wife $5,000 a month." Just hearing that all the sudden changes the dynamic and the wife now says, "I'm not afraid of court. I'm not afraid of my husband. There's somebody there that's not on his side." Even if she gets less than what she wanted. So that's hard to prep celebrity clients for the idea that, "You're going to have a judge that makes a lot less than you do, that sees a lot of people a lot poorer than you, and is not going to be really sympathetic to you at all and might try to help the victim, the person who needs the court's help because you're going to be just fine, ma'am or sir." So it is a hard psychological issue.
Seth Nelson:
Along with that psychological issue ... and Pete, we've talked about this before, and Randy, I would question you on whether you kind of share this with your clients. I frequently will tell them, "You don't get your day in court. I get your day in court and you are actually treated like a child. You sit there and you speak when spoken to and it's usually just a question that you're supposed to answer," and that is very humbling for people. If you want to talk about giving up control, walk into a courtroom when you're the client.
Randall Kessler:
Yeah. I have a PowerPoint. Sometimes I pull it out and show them and I say, "Here's one picture." Or I do it like this. "Think of your craziest, most irrational friend or acquaintance, person you knew growing up in high school, and then think of your best friend that's rational and sane. You know which one you would like to resolve the differences between you and your partner, but which one do you think is going to show up in court? Because you have no idea." It's a crapshoot. You can walk into court and you don't know who the judge is. Sometimes I say, "Have you ever voted?" "Yes." "Don't tell me who, but I know you can remember who you voted for for president, maybe for governor, maybe for mayor. Do you remember who you voted for for judge, if your state has elections for judges?" They have no clue. You don't know who the judge is until it's too late. Yeah, I agree with you, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. And the other thing is ... and I'm sure, once again, you've been there, Randy ... but I have been totally prepared to try a case, and I prepare the same way I always prepare, but it's always good to know your judge. And then you walk into court and a different judge walks in because the judge that is sitting in that division got moved to a different division, children were sick, they got a senior judge to come in and cover. And you've prepped this whole case thinking, "Oh, I know how this judge thinks. I've tried this issue in front of this judge 15 times," and then you've got somebody new.
Randall Kessler:
And again, we were talking earlier, that's why we've done a lot of private judging. We actually built this private courtroom in our office so you can have at least peace of mind that you know it's somebody reliable. And also if you get a private judging ... and again, people have to be able to afford it, but if you can afford a private judge, that judge is not going to say, "Hurry up, I've got another case." They're getting paid a few hundred dollars an hour. They'll actually listen. But you know, Seth and Pete, when you're in court, judges have 10 or 15 cases waiting, whether it's that day or the next day, and you say, "Judge, we can't finish today. We need to finish tomorrow," and the judge says, "Well, I've got another case tomorrow and another one the next day. If you want to reset it or continue it, come back two months from now." So there are all those issues, and trying to tell a celebrity, a famous person, that the judge is more important than everybody else, it's a hard concept to grasp until they've been there and, of course, then it's too late.
Seth Nelson:
And Pete, I love the look on your face because, Randy, you might not know this, but Pete's a huge movie buff, so he thinks all cases get resolved in an hour and a half.
Randall Kessler:
Oh, wouldn't it be nice, Seth, if we could have screenwriters do our closings and our openings? You watch those shows ... I'm old, LA Law ... you say, "God, I want one of those writers to script my final closing remarks and get it down to 30 seconds." Nah, [inaudible 00:11:59]
Seth Nelson:
To this day when I'm in the courtroom and I make my key point, in my head, I still hear ...
Randall Kessler:
Yup. We have jury trials in Georgia and I did one and I remember a guy wanted alimony and he made $150,000 a year, and I remember thinking of Ally McBeal as I said to the jury ... I was nodding my head ... "He wants alimony. Ladies and gentlemen, he makes $150,000 a year. That's a lot of money," and I was nodding my head and they were nodding with me. I thought, "Man, if that was on TV, that was perfect."
Pete Wright:
That is amazing. A, I'm a huge movie buff and celebrity nerd, and also, I can't imagine putting myself in the position of somebody like Tom Cruise, going and sitting in ...
Randall Kessler:
Of course.
Pete Wright:
... to be treated like a child when all I really want to do as Tom Cruise is stand up and scream ...
Randall Kessler:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
... "I want the truth!" Because I've been in that courtroom and I had to wear the bars on my shoulder to get it done. It must be enormously humbling to go through this process as a celebrity. Those lessons ... just those deep interpersonal lessons ... have to be staggering.
Randall Kessler:
Yeah, they can't handle the truth.
Pete Wright:
Right, right, right.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Randall Kessler:
So-
Pete Wright:
Well, especially to come to terms with what you've done in the marriage that is litigated in the divorce process.
Randall Kessler:
Or to understand the law, the fact ... Whether you're a celebrity or not. Someone works their whole life and they build and income and an asset and they've got to divide that down the middle, people don't understand that. And especially I see these athletes. We had a jury trial ... This athlete made $5 million during the marriage. Now, we all know, during the marriage, what you earn is supposed to be divided pretty much evenly in most states. But in his case, I had to make this argument ... and thank goodness we were successful ... that he earned it during the marriage, but he's different. He's not going to keep making a few million dollars a year the rest of his life. That $5 million has to last him from age 29 to age 79 and until he gets to retirement.
Randall Kessler:
But he walks into court, treated like everyone else, and then the impression of the judge or the jury is, "He earned that during the marriage. I had to split 50/50 with my wife. Why aren't you splitting it 50/50 with yours?" That's a tough dynamic, even for non celebrities, but especially those who are used to saying, "You know what? I want this. Make it happen."
Pete Wright:
Are there courtrooms that are more or less sympathetic to celebrity cases? I mean, are they sympathetic to those kinds of arguments? Does that exist?
Randall Kessler:
Yeah, if you go to Beverly Hills and you go to the courts in Beverly Hills. They've seen their fair share. But even then, judges are human beings and people that want to be treated special have a hard time in front of judges, as you all know. It's very, very hard to walk in and have an entitlement [inaudible 00:14:37] I think it doesn't really matter what court it is. I think it's up to the advocate. It's my job as a lawyer to say, "Judge, yes, this guy has $4 million left. He's a 32-year-old athlete, and I'm sorry sir," but I'm going to tell the judge the truth. "I don't think he's going to play next year. I don't think he's going to get picked up again, and even if he does, $4 million is not going to last him the rest of his life. Don't give her half of that because she's got more of an earning capacity in the future than he does." But it's how you argue it and how you present it, I think, more than who the judge is.
Seth Nelson:
And I think along with that, Randy, is how is the judge perceiving your client through you telling the story through questions and answers, because that's what happens in a courtroom. And that entitlement mantra, if that seeps out, you might as well just hang it up right there because ... And this will happen, and just not to be stereotypical, but for way of the concept and the example ... if you have a stay-at-home mom who got married at 30 and is now 40 and has been out of the workforce for eight years and is saying that, "Well, I want to keep raising my kids," and they're sitting in front of a female judge with small children who's working every day and now you're asking for this big sum of money kind of saying, "Yeah, I could work a little bit but I don't really want to," or ... And this is not Beverly Hills. Where I practice, they call it the South Tampa lifestyle, and that is just a phrase that says, "Look at me. I don't have to work. I'm see and be seen and I'm driving the fancy cars and eating lunch at the nice restaurants for an hour and a half," and that's a problem.
Randall Kessler:
Let's let the public in on a little secret. So family law and most civil law really boils down to, in its simplest forms, two issues. One is we have to get the judge or the jury to like our clients, and then we have to tell the judge and jury what we'd like them to do for our client. But it really is as simple as that. You want to help people you like, so if the judge likes you, sir, as my client, or ma'am, then the judge will listen to what we're suggesting because they will think we are the reasonable people, are offering solutions, we are likable, and they'll start to ignore the other side. That's 90% of it. And sometimes, try as we might, we can't make our clients likable. Sometimes people just can't control themselves, what they're going through. The divorce is so tough on them, they get an eye from the other side and they can't contain themselves. But you're right, Seth. If the judge doesn't like your side or is not sympathetic to your side, you could have the best lawyer, the best law, the best facts, you're probably dead in the water.
Seth Nelson:
And that starts at the very beginning. Because I've come on to cases and the client says, "Well, this is what happened in court and this is the temporary order the judge gave," and I said, "We've got a problem. This judge does not like you. That first impression was not good and now I have to turn that around. That's going to be difficult."
Randall Kessler:
But the flip side, back to ... I agree with that. Back to celebrities and publicity, most of these folks that ... We don't represent all celebrities, maybe 20 to 25%. We've got 15 lawyers, so we obviously represent a lot of people that are not famous. But the famous ones, especially the athletes and the recording artists ... I don't want to say this in a bad way, that they're trainable, but they're coachable. They take advice from experts. They are used to being better when they listen to people that have been doing this before. And so a lot of the athletes will come in and say, "I want custody. I've got money. I'll pay you to get me custody. I hear you're good at it." I'll say, "That's not how it works. If you're serious about it and you're in it for the long haul ... years, not months or weeks," and some of them do and they say, "What do I need to do?" I say, "Be the best parent you can be and let it show."
Randall Kessler:
And guess what? Half the time, the cases resolve because the other side realizes that they're a good parent and they share the children. But the other half of the time, they go to court and the history, which we get to build in family law, is that they've been a good dad. When you represent somebody in a car wreck case, Seth, or whatever one-time issue, the facts are established. Whatever happened that day, the murder happened. But in family law, we can say, "Judge, yeah they filed for divorce two years ago, but since then, let me show you what kind of parent my client's been." So we actually can have a really huge effect on our clients and on the outcome, and it doesn't feel dirty to me because all I'm doing is saying, "Be a good parent. Be a nice person. Cooperate." And maybe some of it stick, even if they're doing it strategically, and if it doesn't stick, then things will change anyway. The judge will see through it.
Pete Wright:
By gum, they might actually realize it's fun being a good dad.
Randall Kessler:
Yeah. And then the other side starts to react differently and all the sudden, they don't need lawyers-
Seth Nelson:
Pete, how would you know that? Wait a minute. Pete, how would you know that?
Pete Wright:
I don't know, man. My kid's in the trunk of my car.
Randall Kessler:
You guys are funny.
Pete Wright:
That was actually one of the big questions we wanted to ask you, is just how much does the fact that you're dealing with celebrities impact figuring out the kids. Is there any sort of sympathy to the celebrity/non-celebrity power dynamic? But it sounds like they're ... tend to be pretty amenable.
Randall Kessler:
Yeah. And one other factor is, are they both celebrities. And often, they both think they're celebrities. Sometimes the spouse thinks that they are as famous or they are an aspiring famous person, and that's an issue. But sometimes ... and this sounds terrible ... sometimes it's a battle of who has the better nanny, who's better at managing the children when they're not with the nannies. It's a different dynamic, but you'll see. I mean, a lot of the celebrities that we've represented ... and some that we've opposed ... have been tremendous parents and have said, "My career will be put on hold. I will do whatever it takes." And sometimes I have the difficult side. I have the spouse that's not famous that says, "Well, I'm going to win custody because he or she is off touring the world." Really? You're still trying to run businesses and do things.
Randall Kessler:
It's interesting when you see who puts their money where their mouth is. If you're interested in custody, you do what's good for your kids and your career comes second. And if you're famous, you can get back to being famous. You can't get back to having your kid be five years old again.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. And I always, when I'm trying cases, and whether it's ... because I've represented some athletes. I haven't had anyone in the music industry, but I always tell people, whether they're an athlete or whether they're, like Pete said, just a run-of-the-mill kind of guy, you want to know what is important to somebody, you look at two things: where they spend their money and where they spend their time.
Randall Kessler:
True. And look, I know you're in Tampa, so when Tom or Giselle comes in, just send the other one to me and we'll have fun.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. That's the good thing about this, Pete. The divorce lawyers, there's two sides to the transaction. It's not like the state has the prosecution locked up. They're always going to be trying that case, right?
Randall Kessler:
You know what else is interesting, I think? And I hope you find it interesting, since I'm on your show. But with family law attorneys, we really have to get along because, like Seth just said, if I'm a defense lawyer, the prosecution's always trying to punish my guy or my woman. You get polarized. Insurance defense people think everyone's claiming fake injuries. But in family law, I represent the cheating SOB one day and Seth's got the nice victim wife that is innocent, and the next day he'll be representing the cheating spouse and I've got the person who's been cheated on. So neither one of us can be holier than thou and say, "You always represent this kind of person," and we understand the position of the other side then, so we communicate a little better, I think, than a lot of other types of lawyers or other practices.
Seth Nelson:
What's even worse about that, Pete ... and this has happened to me ... The same day, the same judge, one case in the morning, one case in the afternoon, I argued both sides of the argument. On the second one, the judge said, "Please approach the bench."
Randall Kessler:
Uh oh.
Seth Nelson:
We came up to the bench and they said, "Is it okay to be off the record?" and the other lawyer said, "Fine," so they stopped the court reporter and the judge said, "I believed you this morning."
Randall Kessler:
Absolutely.
Seth Nelson:
And I told the judge, "I don't build them, I just fly them."
Randall Kessler:
Well, the judge has got to be balanced. If you went one way this morning, you should try to have an even record.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Randall Kessler:
That is true.
Seth Nelson:
So I do have a question about the publicity, because we started with that, and this is a good one, about staying out of the media. Because I'm involved in a case now and we got calls from the media and we just didn't return them. I joked with my child that, "Oh ..." because he gets a big kick out of it. I said, "I was in the New York Post today," and he went to look up the article. I'm like, "You're not going to find my name. I'm just the lawyer that represents, because I never even called back," you know?
Randall Kessler:
Yep. First off is how do you keep them out when they're really, really famous? We had recently a gigantic star, and the debate is, if you file a motion to seal or you request confidentiality, then the antennae go up in the clerk's office and they look at it even tougher. And some of the celebrities, especially hip hop folks, have names that most people don't know. People we know whose names start with T or Young or whatever, or Big, that's not their real name, so we always debate if they're going to find it. But I agree. Not responding, sometimes it's hard not to respond. But if we're going to respond, we try to always get a joint statement. We ask the other side if it's for the privacy of the children.
Randall Kessler:
I don't like the words "no comment." It sounds guilty. "No comment" is what you say if you did something wrong. But we say, "For the sake of the family, can you keep it private?" if we have to say something. But the good lawyers, people know that you're the lawyer. They find out you're the lawyer. You don't need to go out there and say, "Look at me, I'm the lawyer for this client." We try very hard, if we're going to say anything, that it's one thing, or we write something for them to say. That's where we get into it with the PR people, because they always want to make their side look good, which we know it was going to cause reaction to the other side. No matter what you say, unless you compliment the other-
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Randall Kessler:
And I don't know if you feel this way, Seth, when you are in court, but I tell every client that's got a custody dispute, "You know who comes out better? The parent who says the most nice things about the other side. As much as you don't like them, if a judge hears that you're willing to compliment the other parent, the judge is going to be comfortable with the children staying calm with you, maybe even being fully with you, because they know you're going to encourage and foster the love for the other parent," as opposed to the other person who's angry as hell. Even if he or she deserves to be angry as hell, because they can't keep that out of their mouths and they can't keep it away from the children.
Randall Kessler:
So keeping it neutral and staying out of the press, or if it's going to be in the press, a one liner, that's the tough one. And then of course, they've got people in their ear that say, "You can't let the other side talk about you. You got to react, you got to respond," and we're trying to say, "What's more important? How you perceive yourself or how the judge perceives you?" It's a hard conversation.
Pete Wright:
I just imagine there's a whole unique set of tools that you're dealing with when it comes to especially these high-profile cases when you're talking about dealing with agents and assistants and publicists and all of these other people that you just don't have to navigate. The stereotype says that you're using ... if you're in a movie, I'm watching you use the media as another tool of leverage in working with their team. It doesn't sound like that's the reality at all.
Randall Kessler:
There are actually ethical rules against that. You are not allowed, through the ABA Model Rules and most state law rules, they do not allow you to use the media to try to influence the try or effect. That means the judge or the jury. If you try to say something publicly to taint the jury or the judge, that's unethical. It may not be illegal, but the bar may have an issue with it.
Randall Kessler:
But along those lines, we do things differently, and sometimes we draft a petition for divorce that says, "The marriage is broken. They're going to try to work it out. If they can't work it out, judge, you're going to have to decide custody." Well, sometimes when we know the media might get a hold of it, we are so flowery with our language. "These parties expect fully that they're going to resolve it. They've been able to resolve things for the ..." and we go on and on where ... Effacious? Is that the word where you go overboard about how good the other side is? Because I don't want to hear the client call me and say, "You made it public that I hate him or her, or that I think this marriage ended ..."
Randall Kessler:
So you got to think about how you write things, not because the judge is going to see it, but how the press ... You know what they do. They take one line out of your ... "We pray for relief." We say, "The prayers for relief." Well, sometimes they're going to get that wrong and say, "She's praying for custody." So we say in that case maybe they're claiming or they would assert a right to it, because you're worried how the press is going to misread and misinterpret.
Seth Nelson:
I always laugh whenever there is a Florida case and it hits the press, the one soundbite is, "They cite irreconcilable differences." That's the soundbite. It's in every single press, and here's why that's the soundbite. Because under Florida law ... Pete, you know what we're about to say ...
Pete Wright:
Check your local jurisdiction.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. You're required to plead that there's irreconcilable differences to get a divorce. So when they say that, I always think to myself, "And that's in every divorce petition that's ever been filed in the great state of Florida." So what did you have, though, Randy?
Randall Kessler:
I got asked recently ... I represented Nick Gordon in a civil matter. He's the one who was Bobbi Kristina's boyfriend, Whitney Houston's daughter. I did not do his criminal defense, but someone asked me ... He passed away and he never was charged with the murder. But Bobby Brown, Whitney's ex-husband, apparently was doing interviews saying that he believes Nick Gordon caused it and did this and that. They asked me for my comment and I said, "I'm not really going to give a comment." They said, "Will you say anything?" And I thought I owed it to him, because I bonded with him and I saw him troubled and how hurt he was. He was devastated when Bobbi died. So I said, "She was his world. All I know is that he loved her." And the story was, "Nick Gordon's lawyer defends him and says that he's not responsible," and, "Nick Gordon's lawyer stands up to Bobby Brown."
Randall Kessler:
I didn't stand up to anybody. I just said all I could see from what I saw is that he loved her and that was his whole world. I think it was a two sentence ... Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but I thought it's what he would have wanted me to say. He's gone and I thought it was the right thing to do, but it was interesting. It taught me a lesson that ... My step-grandfather was a furrier in New Orleans and he used to say, "Measure twice, cut once." So it's a good saying that I try to remember, measure a few times.
Seth Nelson:
Remember, whenever you're talking to the press, you control what you say. You don't control what they hear and you don't control what they print.
Randall Kessler:
That's true. But if you know the press ... And I'm lucky enough I'm across from CNN, so I've done a lot with CNN. Once you get to know them, they're pretty trustworthy, the credible sources. You can talk off the record and say, "Look, tell me what the article's about." The ones that are trying to do the gotcha moment ... and I don't want to name names. You know who they are. But the credible news organizations, you can sort of talk to them and say, "Tell me more what it's about and I'll decide whether I want to do it."
Randall Kessler:
We did a whole story ... It's public. We represented Reverend Warnock's wife before he became senator, and we got so many calls and we didn't talk to anybody. We would talk to them and we would say, "No, she doesn't want to be public like that," but we would at least listen. And so do you even talk to the press? I'm okay sometimes taking a call if it's an organization that I trust, as long as I know we're not talking yet because sometimes it helps my client. I want them to know, "Here's what the story is. Here's what they want to talk about, just so you know. I don't think you should talk about it, but FYI."
Seth Nelson:
And that's a good point, because ultimately, it's the client's decision.
Pete Wright:
I don't imagine that Tom Cruise is listening to this podcast, and so-
Randall Kessler:
And we know nothing. I know nothing about his case. I know nothing but good things.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. No, no, no, I'm just saying, in terms of ... I think that his representation is probably taking care of it and maybe he doesn't need this podcast. But what I do know is that people who are listening to this podcast are people who need some guidance and guidelines on how to manage their divorce process, how to get the right kind of support, and I wonder if you could think for a minute about lessons you've learned from dealing with high-profile celebrity cases that you could translate into things that would help everybody.
Randall Kessler:
Yes. And I know we're not doing this to promote my book, and I don't make money on this book. It's, I think, $9 on Amazon or $16 to get it, and if someone's really desperate and they write me a nice email, I'll probably send it to them free. I don't care. But it's called Divorce: Protect Yourself, Your Kids, and Your Future. I started it 25 years ago, couldn't finish it, represented a lady who wrote 100 books, made me finish it. It's just sort of general ideas, and the point is, whether you're a celebrity or not, have common sense. Think about how do you resolve disputes between your kids or between friends? Who are you upset it?
Randall Kessler:
It's like we talked about earlier. You like the person that's nice and reasonable, and it's hard to be nice and reasonable. And God knows, this litigation is fraught with emotion. This is not like you're suing a doctor who cut off the wrong leg and you'll never see this doctor again and you never saw him before, or the cab driver that hit you. This is somebody who you married or had a baby with that you're going to know the rest of your life because you're co-parents, and how you resolve a case to me is as important as what you get at the end of the case. That's a hard lesson to teach people.
Randall Kessler:
One thing I try to do with folks ... and this maybe not be exactly what you asked, Pete, but it's sort of a small part. If you're the person on the side with the money ... got the money or you got the resources ... and you settle the case, when it's over, make a gesture. Why not say, "I know we just went through this knock down drag out, but I'd like to give you an extra $5,000 towards your lawyer fees," or, "I'd like to make the last six payments on your car." I tell my clients that and they are mad as hell when I tell them. They say, "Why should I do it?" I say, "Well, aside from it being a nice thing to do, six months from now, when you're out of town at Disneyworld and you say, 'Honey, can I keep the kids an extra night? It's not my time,' and she says, 'What did you ever do for me?' Aha."
Randall Kessler:
You never know. Good will goes around, and whatever you can do, just make a gesture. Do something nice for the person you've done battle with, and that joint public statement if you're a celebrity goes a long way, especially to a person who is no longer going to be a famous spouse and they're no longer going to get into the same red carpet affairs. It's nice to leave it on a good note, and the famous person can change that person's world.
Randall Kessler:
The flip side of that is if you are soon to be the ex Mr. or Mrs. of the famous person, be nice, because that person can open doors for you. You want contacts, you want to write a book, you want to get into a certain community or club or whatever, if you have a famous spouse, be nice to them because there are things they can do for you that other people can't. And they'll do it for you if you're nice to them. I mean, it's just human nature. You want to help your ex if you think they were nice to you. If you think they were mad and bad during the divorce, you're never going to help them. So just celebrity or not, be nice. As hard as it is, as angry as you are, no matter what they did to you, think about the long term.
Seth Nelson:
I couldn't agree more with you, and I've given that exact advice, Randy, when people are ... Let's say you're the spouse that wants to receive alimony. One thing I say, "Be nice." And they'll say, "What do you mean?" And I said, "You're asking this person to give you money for 10 years on a monthly basis. If you're mean-"
Pete Wright:
Good will goes a long way.
Seth Nelson:
I think under the law you're entitled to it, but as you rightly say, I think how a case gets resolved is as important, if not more, than the ultimate outcome. And I can tell you, we will go to trial on parenting plans and I'll run into that client five years later and they're not using the parenting plan that we went to trial on because they realized it didn't work and the kids are older and things have changed and, "We moved houses and now we have a step sibling and everything changes." But be nice and maybe you're going to get something in return.
Randall Kessler:
Right, because most cases don't go to trial. So instead of saying, "What's the judge going to give me?" how about, "What's my ex going to give me?" People do things because they want to, not because they have to, and you got to make the other side want to, not have to. "I'll show him what a bad guy he was." He's not going to say, "I'm a bad guy. I'll pay you." He's going to say, "She's being nice to me. I'm happy to do this." You're exactly right, Seth. I couldn't agree more.
Pete Wright:
I think that's incredibly grounding advice, too. File this under ... We all put our pants on one leg at a time, but the idea of just being nice ... That just might get you your first alimony check. It'll also get you the one 10 years down the road.
Seth Nelson:
And it's a whole lot easier to say than do. Let's not ...
Pete Wright:
Yeah, of course.
Seth Nelson:
... sugarcoat it. But you can start with that.
Randall Kessler:
And Seth, you know this. Why are we telling them that? They're paying us to go for blood. They want us to go after everything. You know what they want hanging on the wall. They want some evidence that they really hurt the other side, and that's what they're paying us for. And here we are saying, "You know what? I'm standing up for the other side," is what it looks like to them. And I'm not. I'm making sure they know it's for them. But, "I'm paying you because I hear that you're going to beat him or her up," and I say, "Well, that's not me. That's not us." But that's not how we get good results. If the other side's a jerk, we'll do what we have to do, but ...
Seth Nelson:
Right. And I get that question all the time. They'll call and say, "I want an aggressive lawyer." And I'll ask them, "If you have your choice, an aggressive lawyer or effective lawyer, which one do you want to choose?" They always choose effective. And sometimes you have to ask the tough questions, and you have to hold people accountable by using the court system, but sometimes you can just be nice and you can be professional and you can set a hearing. We have difficult jobs and sometimes lawyers get heated between each other, and I've picked up the phone and said, "Hey, look, that conversation with you didn't go as well as it should have. I was having a bad day. I apologize." And that's what the colleague who's on the other side ... That's almost better than never having a conflict because then they realize it.
Randall Kessler:
Yeah. That's why you're great. That's why this podcast is great. It's how you say things more than what you say. You can say, "I'm going to kill you and rip your head off," in a much nicer way. "We're going to go to battle and it's going to be an effective decapitation." But you can say it in a nice way and people will hear it differently. But it takes two to settle. It takes one to make it go to court.
Pete Wright:
What do you think of the value of prenups? We've talked a little bit about the prenuptial agreement. It is another one of those sort of movie tropes that I know of in all the divorce movies. How do you think about the prenup?
Randall Kessler:
Well, there's prenups, then there's the high profile, the, "I'm going to pay you this much if I get caught doing this and that." We've done those, and lots of money where I say, "Are you kidding?" And then they say, "Well, the amount of money I make, I could stroke a check for this much and go have 10 affairs and it wouldn't bother me." So there's all that. But when it comes down to it, a prenup's a very personal thing. I think there's some good reasons. If you have gone through a tough, ugly expensive divorce and you want to make sure it doesn't happen again, if you have inherited a lot of property and you want your family to feel very comfortable that the person you're marrying is not in it for their money.
Randall Kessler:
But it depends. I mean, I tell the world, I didn't get married until I was in my 40s. I had accumulated some modest wealth. I'd been a lawyer and had not had children yet. I didn't have a prenup. My wife had not been married. I trust her. But I think it's a case by case, but I think it's more important for celebrities for a couple reasons. Number one, people want to latch onto celebrities, and there are a lot of what we call gold diggers. But more importantly, for the families of these celebrities, to make sure that they know this person is not marrying their son, their nephew, their brother for the money. It shows them.
Randall Kessler:
But the flip side is ... and Seth's been there ... sometimes you come out worse with a prenup than with a prenup. Some people are so vested in getting a document that they agree to pay more to the other side in the event of a divorce than the judge might have made them do. But they like to say, "But I got a prenup, so she loves me for myself, not for my money." So it's a unique skillset.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Because the assumption in the prenup is they're going to have the money they have today or more.
Randall Kessler:
Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson, the prenup pretty much said that he keeps all his wealth and she keeps all hers, and he was the famous guy. When they got divorced, guess what? She was 10 times more famous. And that's a hard one for lawyers, too. Clients will call us and say, "You made me guarantee her a million dollars but now I'm broke and I still have to pay her a million dollars." It's a hard one. Lawyers are afraid of prenups because so many things can change. My favorite is just if you really want, you keep what you had before the marriage, he or she keeps what she had before the marriage, and let's see what happens with the rest of it. Those are simple. That's pretty much what most state laws would do even without a prenup.
Pete Wright:
I think you've just sort of explained something that was news to me. I thought the latter is what the prenup did, but guaranteeing this sort of leveling indicator in terms of wealth going into and out of the marriage was sort of news to me, why they would have to pay each other anything. Again, I'm the Joe Nobody on the show, so ...
Randall Kessler:
People will always say, "That prenup is unfair." I say, "You know what? They're supposed to be unfair." The prenup is to preserve that unfairness. Someone's rich coming in and you're married for 20 years and they want to leave, well, you got a 20-year ride in a good lifestyle, but that person doesn't want to give you money for the rest of their life and that's why they do a prenup and you took that risk. So it can't be unconscionable. It can't be so crazy the judge wouldn't enforce it, but it's to preserve that inequity.
Randall Kessler:
But generally speaking, in most states, if you have money before the marriage and you keep it separate, when you get divorced, that's generally yours. The courts might be able to look at it to determine alimony or child support, so that's the simple prenup, the, "I just want to make sure that the beach house that my family gave me when my grandparents died, that if I ever divorce that that stays in my name." Those make sense to me.
Pete Wright:
Protected. Yeah. Protected assets, I get that.
Randall Kessler:
So it's not so much is a prenup fair and how do I feel about prenups, it's how do I feel about terrible prenups? I had a woman who was going to marry a guy 20 years ago. He said, "Under no circumstances will she ever get more than $100,000." And his family had lots and lots of money, and so we started off, "What if they're married 10 years?" "No." "What if they're married 20 years? Will you get rid of that limit? What if they have kids together?" "No." "What if they have grandkids together?" "No." He would never ever agree to pay her more than $100,000. She didn't marry him. Good for her. She had the guts to walk away and say, "If that's how he feels ... If we're married 50 years and I've been home raising kids and grandkids, $100,000 in 50 years may not be enough to get me by for more than a couple weeks, days, months."
Seth Nelson:
And here's the cynical joke that I always tell, Pete. I'm sure Randy's heard it before because he's heard every divorce joke is ...
Randall Kessler:
Oh, this might be it.
Seth Nelson:
It might be a new one. Maybe I'll get 20 bucks if it's a new one you haven't heard, right? The prenup, once you go to get a divorce, that's just the first offer because you can challenge the prenup.
Randall Kessler:
Yep, you can. And Seth makes a good point. If my client's agreed to give his soon-to-be ex $1 million, when he comes to me for the divorce, I say, "Let's offer her $1.1, $1.25," because otherwise she's got nothing to lose. She'll go to court and she'll still get the million, but maybe she gets the prenup thrown out and she gets $10 million. So yes, it's sort of an insurance policy against paying me or Seth a lot of money to fight about how to divide the assets, because when the client comes to me and to Seth, we're both going to tell our respective sides, "Chances are, payment's going to be $1 million. If we can get you a little more, take it."
Seth Nelson:
There you go. So that's the takeaway, Pete.
Randall Kessler:
Agreed.
Seth Nelson:
If we can get you a little more, take it.
Randall Kessler:
Right? Why take the risk? Well, that's me. I'm not a gambling person. Some people say, "I don't care." Speaking of gambling, I'll tell you a quick story. We had jury trials in Georgia and this lady wanted a lot of money and there was a prenup. The prenup was very, very generous to her and I begged her to take the prenup. She wouldn't do it, she wouldn't do it, so we called a jury, picked the jurors, and I added another lawyer to my team from outside my firm to reconfirm the same advice. Finally, here's what she said. She goes, "I'll take the prenup, but I want an extra $50,000." I said, "You're being greedy." She said, "I'm the client. Make the offer." I made the offer in the courtroom. The other side came back and said, "He'll flip for it." We flipped a quarter for $50,000 and we lost and she was fine with it.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, Randy. Right before you flipped, you didn't say, "Heads I win, tails you lose"?
Randall Kessler:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
Come on, Randy.
Randall Kessler:
It hit the light fixture and I said we should do a do over, but she was actually okay with it. She thought that that was cool that he was willing to do it, it was sort of gusty of him, and $50,000-
Pete Wright:
We've talked about a lot of things that are out of the realm of my understanding in the last 45 minutes or so. I feel the most out of touch after the coin toss for $50,000.
Randall Kessler:
Unbelievable.
Pete Wright:
What a story. That's hard.
Randall Kessler:
It was a drop in the bucket. It was-
Seth Nelson:
You missed the real question though, Pete. Who kept the quarter? That's what I'm wondering.
Randall Kessler:
They wanted the judge to flip. I said, "No, I don't want the judge participating in gambling." So the bailiff did it. I bet you he's still got it. But also, celebrities, I'll tell you ... If you wanted another war story, too. We had a guy who was a hip hop guy and he was married to a hip hop woman and we were in court and we left for lunch. I usually ask the staff, "Do you want to bring a sandwich or something?" And there was a bailiff that was with us, a sheriff. We came back and we forgot to get him something to eat. And so my client pulled out a $100 bill and said, "Here you go, I'm sorry about that." I said, "You can't do that." For 10 years, every time I saw that sheriff, he's mad at ... He's like, "Why'd you say that?" I said, "Because you can't pay a court employee money." That was nuts. He pulled it out of one of those ... what they call a stack. 10 $100 bills, just peeled one off and said, "Here, I feel bad."
Pete Wright:
Oh my goodness. Well, clearly in all of these stories, Randy Kessler, you are the rock star. I have one more pivot, man. Of all the stuff you're doing, it appears you have a bit of a side hustle going on. You want to talk about Starsona?
Randall Kessler:
I would love to for just a minute. For years, I've represented celebrities and then I know them and I see them on a basketball court and I get a hug, but that's about it. I know when we'd go to court, they'd come out of court and people would stop them and they'd do selfies. I thought, "There should be an app for that." So I've been working on this app called BlissDivorce, which is an out-of-court mediation project that's in California right now, and all these cool engineers and internet people were working on a team. I said, "You know what? Let me drop this idea on you." I said, "I call it the Happy Birthday app. What do you think?"
Randall Kessler:
They loved it. We started it with Starsona. It was a couple months after Cameo. We were an app, Cameo was a website. It evolved to become a storefront for stars, especially stars that don't have managers, to go and create their own website where you can get a direct message, you can get a FaceTime, you can get a signed football all through the app or through the website, starsona.com, so that you don't have to give away the cell phone of the star. Then we merged with a company in Europe that's got a presence in India and South Africa and Germany, and so we are now called myFanPark, myfanpark.com.
Randall Kessler:
It's cool. Check it out. You can have Dominique Wilkins wish you a happy birthday. You can get Mario West, formerly of the Hawks, to come play basketball with you if you live in Atlanta. For 100 bucks, he'll play in your yard. You can do fun stuff. It's just a cool thing and I'm making people happy. I'm making the customers, the people that buy them happy, the stars who are former stars now still feel needed, and it's been a really cool experience, and now I know how apps and entrepreneurs feel.
Seth Nelson:
We should point out that for a nominal ... The athletes or whoever, they choose the price to make all this happen, right?
Randall Kessler:
Uh oh. Uh oh. Uh oh, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Because here's what I'm going to say. For $25, I will come and we will record How to Split a Toaster ...
Randall Kessler:
Hey. Sign up.
Seth Nelson:
... in your living room.
Randall Kessler:
You're hired. Sign up. Go to myfanpark.com and start it. I'll tell you, the stars do get to pick their price, and from your $3,500, Kyle Lowry or DeMar DeRozan or Kawhi Leonard, they'll do a video for you if they have the time. A mere $3,500. So yes, there are the high end and ...
Pete Wright:
A mere $3,500. I love it.
Randall Kessler:
Great. You guys should be on myFanPark. Absolutely. You guys are great and I'm sure there are people out there that would say, "Hey, I want you to wish my kid happy birthday. I want you to tell my kid what it's like to not just be a lawyer but to also be a podcaster and how to venture out of your comfort zone." Do it. Why not? [crosstalk 00:48:30]
Seth Nelson:
[crosstalk 00:48:29]
Pete Wright:
You're on myFanPark. I'm going to order you to send me a happy birthday and I just interviewed you. I'm so excited about that.
Randall Kessler:
I had to be because I had to know how to works to be able to explain to the stars how it works. I've actually gotten a few requests. Not many. Over the last year or so, I've probably gotten four or five. But it's a cool little hit of adrenalin when someone says to a star, "Hey, I'm going to pay you $20 to say happy birthday," because they come up to them at a basketball game or they come up to them at the grocery store when they see them and they ask them the same thing. These are people that seek them out and say, "I love you so much, I'll pay you to do something for me."
Pete Wright:
It's brilliant.
Seth Nelson:
Great idea.
Randall Kessler:
[crosstalk 00:49:06]
Pete Wright:
I think it's great. It's wonderful. Randy, you're fantastic. Thanks for spending your time with us today, for lending your fantastic insights to the Toaster audience. We sure appreciate you.
Randall Kessler:
Thank you. You guys are great. This builds my experience and I loved doing it. Look forward to meeting you guys in person when this is all over and Seth, if Tampa Bay makes it to the Superbowl and you decide to come to LA, you got a beer on me.
Seth Nelson:
All right. Looking forward to it. Thank you, my friend.
Pete Wright:
Thank you everybody for downloading this show. We sure appreciate you too. On behalf of Randy Kessler and Seth Nelson, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next time on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Speaker 4:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
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