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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
These spiritual narcissists use religion as a sword and not a shield.
Voiceover:In a world of hurt and pain, we find a way to break the chain, a caring heart, a guiding light. Lead us through the darkest night with preservation in our soul. We'll rescue those who've lost control, escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. Welcome to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKinney and Padida Jafari.
Jon McKenney:Padida, I miss you.
Padideh Jafari:I know. I miss you too. What are you doing? You're like in back in Atlanta. You
Jon McKenney:know, I am. And I got a little vacation, went down to the went down to the coast in Florida and got on some beaches. It was really fun.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I know. I saw some of your stuff on social media.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. It was very good. Had a really good time and just chilled out and kinda didn't do anything for a week. And and guess what this is? This is the start of season four for us.
Padideh Jafari:I know. So exciting.
Jon McKenney:Can you believe that?
Padideh Jafari:I don't. I actually don't. I think And by the way, if I sound like a frog today for anyone listening, it's because I have bronchitis. So
Jon McKenney:Well, good for you for for making it work for today because today's topic is really gonna be special. Think also, this will be the first time we've done a series of two on the same topic, and we've gotten so much positive feedback on what we did for spiritual narcissism. And we wanted to do a deeper dive on it today and talk about perhaps some of the tactics that spiritual narcissists use so they can easily be identified and so that you know what's going on.
Padideh Jafari:It's such a topic that most people don't talk about because it is taboo. Nobody wants to say that, you know, they were victims of spiritual narcissists. I know I was. And it's a very difficult topic to talk about even fifteen years ago when it happened to me. Obviously, I didn't know what it was.
Padideh Jafari:But even today when I talk about it, John, it is very triggering for me.
Jon McKenney:I would bet it is. And, you know, the other thing that I think that kind of makes the conversation taboo is that you're talking about people who consider themselves people of faith, but in practicality, they're really not. That becomes a little problematic as well. So I think when I'm convinced also that churches on the whole do not know how to deal with this well, and pastors know do not know how to deal with this well. So so when you bring up these kinds of things, it really does kinda have a taboo nature to it and feels more like illicit conversation than it does welcome conversation without question.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, absolutely. I think the most that the churches do is they try to counsel and then they usually throw out the victim of the spiritual narcissism, not the actual narcissist, if you know what I mean. It's counterintuitive, but that's what they do because the victim, as you know, a lot of times sounds like they're crazy, right? They're saying that, you know, they're doing this and this and this at home. And then this pastors are going, well, how can that be?
Padideh Jafari:I mean, they show up for church. I see that they're good with the kids and, you know, when they're at, you know, children's ministry. I mean, all the things, right? So that's why it's triggering because I went through something like this fifteen years ago. And we'll dive into my story a little bit later.
Padideh Jafari:But it's I'm so glad that we're doing a part two on this because I feel like people need to know that you are not alone and you are not crazy.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely true. And and and I what you describe right there with respect to the church happened to me. I mean, I sat in a in a in a counseling session with my pastor, and and and and and I had decided I wasn't going to talk a whole lot because I I wanted her to communicate with him and was hoping that she would speak the truth. So for the first hour, all I did in this conversation was when she would lie, I would say, please tell this man the truth. Please tell this man the truth.
Jon McKenney:Please tell this man the truth. And and the end result of this was him asking her a question and saying to her, did you ever love your husband? To which she replied, no, I never really did. Which which to me is the ultimate inoffensiveness with respect to a marriage, to for somebody to pretend that they loved you and make make vows for those kinds of things. And then on the other side of that, to have nothing to bring to the table and because of that deception, that that to me is the most egregious of things.
Jon McKenney:So I I even I got home with my ex and and had a conversation with her about this, and I told her what what she'd said to me was very hurtful. And she goes, what did I say? And I repeated it to her, and she goes, oh, I never said that. And and owned oh, and and lived there for six months, and I couldn't let it go. And I said, look.
Jon McKenney:You you said this to our pastor, and I and I I know it. And she she finally goes, well, yeah. I did say it. Are you happy now? So okay.
Jon McKenney:No sorrow, no repentance. But the end result of my conversation with her, at with the pastor was him saying, can't participate in some things in church. While meanwhile, you have this narcissist who was continued to to be allowed to serve in children's ministry and lead children.
Padideh Jafari:Oh my gosh. Wait a minute. I just want to get this straight. So you were told that you can't or she was told that she can't?
Jon McKenney:I was told that I can't. I was I was helping on the worship team at the time. I play guitar and sing, and I was told that I was unable to go participate. But she there was no no discipline whatsoever for her. And the only thing the pastor told me, which he did say, he said, well, you're angry.
Jon McKenney:And I go, you think? I mean, I've been lied to all these years. Do you know? What would you what would you do? And, do you think that would bother you?
Jon McKenney:And he kind of consented or agreed that that would that would trouble him. So so there there there there are tactics like this that are going on behind the scenes. And part of getting people on their side is getting this whole religious crowd around them on their side too. Now now my my conversation with the pastor ended right there. I didn't ever have another session with him, and that was two years before I divorced.
Jon McKenney:Now what I discovered in conversation with my ex afterwards was that she had continued to meet with him privately during the two years between that conversation and the time I divorced. And, of course, she couldn't tell the truth to save her. So god knows what she said to this guy about me. And that was the beginning of trying to get this religious crowd on her side at the church. And, ultimately, I I lost every relationship I had with the church.
Jon McKenney:They came at me with both guns barrel with with both barrels after I I divorced and said, you know, you're living in sin or you're in sin by divorcing, and, basically, you're going to hell. I got these real all the all this in really nice email form. But but the there's there's no accountability whatsoever for these narcissists in the church setting. And I couldn't I somebody sat in front of me and said and said, hey. You know what?
Jon McKenney:I I just never not only do I not love my spouse, but I never love them. To me, that's one of the most egregious things a spouse could ever say to a husband or a a wife could ever say to a husband to to know that this whole thing was fake. And and they are constantly and and all the time trying to trying to get people on their side, and they do this in the religious community as well in order to further the abuse.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I want to just mention two things. The first thing is this toxic amnesia that they have. Right? Like, I don't remember.
Padideh Jafari:I didn't say I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. Right? And you're, like, holding on to everything that they say because the whole relationship is holding on by a shoestring.
Padideh Jafari:Okay. And so this toxic amnesia, that's why when clients come in, I tell them I need a timeline and I want them to start writing and journaling. We've talked about this I know you're really good at journaling. Some of my male clients, unfortunately, are not. So I ask them for a timeline and I say from here on out, if I'm going to be your attorney, I need you to write down, I need you to start writing down things like when things happen, when the drop offs are, take pictures because sometimes, you know, with narcissists, happens is they'll say, oh, the child came back with dirty clothes and then they will report you to Child Protective Services.
Padideh Jafari:Really, you have to start doing this. And this is not if you are co parenting well. This is when you are co parenting with a narcissist that manufactures evidence and facts and things like that. So the toxic amnesia just kind of popped out at me because she was denying it for a couple of weeks until she finally like blew up at you and was like, yes. I said it.
Padideh Jafari:You know? And then she's
Jon McKenney:like Actually, was six months between the time she said it and the time she owned it. And so, you know, it it it it makes you feel like you're going crazy, and it it's it's a very difficult thing to live in because there's absolutely no ability to go correct the relationship when somebody's lying about what they've said and spoken like that.
Padideh Jafari:And then the second thing I wanna say, and I only know this because obviously I follow you on social media. Not only did she weaponize love, but she also weaponized sex. So it's like, not only was she saying, don't love you, but she was also weaponizing sex and saying, well, I'm not going to have sex with you. It's going to be on my terms. And so even though the Bible, if she's going by strictly the Bible, it says that her body is really not even her body because two become one.
Padideh Jafari:And so all that to say is like, I'd be telling the pastor not only does she not love me, but she's also not having sex with me. And those are two biblical things that are supposed to happen in a marriage, let's say a Christian marriage. So that's like, and he's just sitting there going, Oh, well, you know, get it together, John. Know, like, this is your fault. What have you done that has led to this?
Padideh Jafari:Right? That's how they look at it.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely. In fact, I I will tell you that that one of the things I was told in emails and in the future discussions was that because because I couldn't make the relationship work and I was the leader of the family that that I was to blame as the man as well. So so whatever you know, it comes down to whatever she does, I get I got blamed for, and they were not willing to to move from that position at all. So I I I do personally believe that there is there is leadership in a marriage, and I I do believe that that men, for the most part, are lead and our religious tradition, yours and mine and Christian faith, the scriptures talk about those kinds of things. I took that very seriously.
Jon McKenney:But there's also something called followership. If you I can go lead and say, hey, here's where we're going. If somebody doesn't wanna go, that is absolutely on them and not on me. And that's ultimately what took place in my marriage for sure. And, again, no accountability for her.
Jon McKenney:Last I heard, she was leading women now in a on a women's retreat and things like that. So you would figure that instead of instead of in in situations like this, instead of pastors and those in the church kinda trying to discover what actually took place and making sure they had both sides of the story, which is also a biblical concept, honestly, they take one, and they don't bother to go any further. And that's ultimately part of the problem as well. And it it provides and it fosters this lack of accountability and this this crowd, this mob mentality. I mean, it really was, for me, kind of a mob mentality.
Jon McKenney:You know, I lost friends from my church. There were some that, you know, just said they weren't gonna continue to to communicate with me. And, ultimately, I was kind of well, I wasn't a member of the church there, so they couldn't necessarily excommunicate me. I was, for all intents and purposes, excommunicated without even a single personal word to me about any of this. So so this mob mentality is something they're trying to foster inside the church.
Jon McKenney:And and, ultimately, the, you know, the other part of this is they're using whatever religious belief they can find to crucify you, to abuse you further, particularly if you if you divorce. Let me kind of explain what what that how that looked like in my life. The scriptures, of course, do not do not speak favorably of divorce, and and in most religious traditions, divorce is kind of seen as a no no. And I would agree that in in most cases, divorce shouldn't be. The bible speaks specifically about adultery and speaks about marriage abandonment and some other things.
Jon McKenney:And I think you and I are gonna do a session on that this season talking about divorce and and how we arrived at at the idea of divorce. So for people who don't wanna dig further, they can go, oh, well, you're just divorcing. And this is how this is also how the mob the mob mentality was used against me. They take this one statement out of the scriptures where where Jesus says, don't divorce, And they use that against me without without talking about infidelity, without talking about emotional abandonment of the relationship, without talking about the other kinds of things this person is doing, the narcissist is doing, so that on the other side of it, the mob is armed to the hilt with ammo against and I use the word ammo in quotes because it's really not ammo. There's more than more to the scriptures than just one one verse.
Jon McKenney:But this is ultimately how they do it. They take these these this one belief or this one statement, and they unilaterally throw it out there and create this mob against you. And they'll use absolutely any belief they can they can use to to destroy
Padideh Jafari:you. Correct.
Jon McKenney:The way my church did it was they began to tell people that I was dead, and in in some capacity, actually just began to embrace that. And I had a I had a friend in my networking group who had actually attended the same church. And although the leadership of the church, I guess, did not know that we were in the same networking group, and he was doing some work over at my house and pulled me aside one day and flat out told me, he said, man, I gotta tell you something. He said, you know, I I I was with one of the pastors over in our church, and the the pastor said, hey. You know, there's a widow in the church who could really use some help.
Jon McKenney:Would you would you help her out? And he said, absolutely. You know? He says, the Bible says take care of widows and orphans, so I'd be happy to go do that. So do you mind telling me who it was?
Jon McKenney:And the pastor gave him my ex's name. And he said to me, his response was just this absolute look of puzzling. He goes, well, I hate to tell you, but John is still alive. And he's in my networking group. He goes, oh, yeah.
Jon McKenney:Well, you know, we just consider him dead. So it's it's they'll do they'll do and say anything even to the mob to get everybody on their side.
Padideh Jafari:You know what? It's funny because not funny. Sorry. Ironic that they were using you being the leader of your family against you. Well, they were using that I need to submit to my husband against me.
Padideh Jafari:So instead of using these as shields, they're using these as weapons because my pastor also said to me, well, you need to submit to your husband. And I said, but that's only half the verse, right? It's as he is submitting to Christ. And, you know, my husband was bisexual. He was watching gay porn.
Padideh Jafari:He was having adulterous affairs with men, women. And so it was like, can we discuss that for a minute?
Jon McKenney:And also, again, because you've said this stuff and and asking you to do things that were completely inappropriate as well Yes. On top of that.
Padideh Jafari:You know? And I don't wanna say as a Christian woman, I mean, I don't think any woman should do these things, right? That they don't feel in their spirit feels right sexually. And there's no judgment. Listen, if you're into that, then go ahead.
Padideh Jafari:But I was a new Christian and I was going to church. I was taking his daughter to church like every Wednesday after school. And then, you know, I was going to church on Sundays serving. I was at one point representing the church. So I actually helped out on a couple of cases that the church had.
Padideh Jafari:It just wasn't my thing. I really was looking for a one to one relationship with my husband. And that's just not what he was about. And I didn't know that, John, until quite into the relationship and marriage. You know, he would say, you know, I'm just being that he was just being kinky or, you know, that type of thing.
Padideh Jafari:And I thought, okay, well, this is this is, like, not feeling right or good. And so when we finally got to the point where we were talking to the pastor and he said the word submit, I was like, I will a 100% submit to my husband.
Jon McKenney:Which is is follow is followership. Right? That's Right. So we're talking about leadership, and your husband's saying go do all these things that are opposite of of any faith sane faith tradition probably. Right?
Padideh Jafari:Yes. Yes.
Jon McKenney:And he's leading you in that direction, and you don't you do not submit to those kinds of things. You do not follow in situations like that where somebody's leading you down a path of destruction. If somebody's decided they're gonna take a car and drive it off off a cliff, I'm not getting in, and and you are wise not to not to get in. And submission has its has its boundaries as well, and that's why the second half of the verse is is important. And and in your particular situations, it's just as abusive.
Jon McKenney:They're they're they're saying to you as the the wife that you are not following the way you should follow. Where in my case, they're so this is this doesn't just happen with men, and this doesn't just happen with women. You get crucified on both sides of these things, or can be, and we wind up with situations where we're kind of thrown out and discarded by the church. That word is discard. Right?
Jon McKenney:That happens there too in these environments that that protect narcissism and provide no accountability whatsoever.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And I wanted to say one thing. The the church, once we got separated, I was attending that church for a couple of, I would say weeks after. But there was a particular pastor who was a missionary and I had gone to The Philippines with her on a missions trip and to Peru. And John, she just dumped me like so quickly.
Padideh Jafari:Even though I had disclosed a little bit, like not the gay porn stuff, not the because that just was like an absolute no no. Like, do you tell someone about that that your husband is interested in the opposite sex? But she knew a little bit of my story and she even said to me at one point, like, I I feel like you're being abused. But she dumped me, like, as if I had, like, the scarlet letter a. And that was the one that really hurt because I was like, well, you sort of knew what my husband was like.
Padideh Jafari:And so why are you dumping me as a friend? And so that was really difficult. And as you know my story, I moved to New York City, Manhattan for the next thirteen years and I was bicoastal. So I didn't really go back to that church. I want to say one thing though.
Padideh Jafari:My brother continued to go to that church and we just recently, the last month, found out that those same pastors, okay, that we're talking about, they married, they helped to marry his ex wife who who cheated on my husband after three months of marriage Right. And went with another man, married that man, divorced that man because she cheated on him. And these pastors, now she's on her third marriage and she's not even 40, by the way. And they're the pastors that married her and put it on social media. And so I just finally, after fifteen years, I blocked them.
Padideh Jafari:I was like, you know what? You guys do not have, you don't have discernment if you're doing these things. Yes. Right? So I sort of felt, I have to be honest, I sort of felt, felt vindicated.
Padideh Jafari:And when I told my brother, I said, you know, they they helped Mary your ex wife. He just said, I know. He said, I hope she doesn't start going to the church because I don't think she I've I haven't seen her. But all that to say that sometimes with the passage of time, like, God does reveal all, and I really do believe that. And I think I needed to see that to realize these pastors don't have discernment, and they don't know what they're doing.
Jon McKenney:I I man, I hate to agree with that. But it's really it really is ultimately kind of true. Like, they're not acquainted with this kind of of evil, I think, as it as it comes their way. They just don't know what to go do with it, and, ultimately, that's a problem. And and, unfortunately, that's that's where we live, and that's where many people who, I I think, you know, go to leadership in the church for help, do not find the help they need.
Jon McKenney:And it honestly, if you're a pastor out there and listening to this, please go go educate yourself on this. And and and and at the very least, go go educate yourself on this scripturally because there are passages in scripture that that address people like this. And, you know, it it'll list out some stuff, and I'm gonna try and find that scripture, and I'll I'll upload it later. But it says, you know, if people are this, this, this, this, this, this, this, have nothing to do with them. And these lists describe narcissists, and having nothing to do with somebody is what we call no contact.
Padideh Jafari:We're having to
Jon McKenney:live this out day in and day out, and and we're obeying the scriptures by by not doing the these kinds of things and following what we believe god has given us and avoiding people like this and whether they're family or not. And and, ultimately, that in order to protect ourselves, in order to to even just be able to go do the basics in life for as as a human, these are the kinds of things a narcissist victim has to go do to protect themselves against what's taking place. And it's it's deeply unfortunate, but if but but go educate yourself. Go go read up on Pharaoh. Pharaoh has ridiculously narcissistic tendencies if you read up on him in the scriptures.
Jon McKenney:Go read up on Jezebel and and read the way she treats, people as well. Also, ridiculously narcissistic. And there are others in the scriptures as well who who act this way. Saul, you know, also ridiculously narcissistic to the point where the guy basically tried to kill his own kid. So these are not the kinds of things god would embrace, and and all of this comes together, I think, in a package.
Jon McKenney:And and the package is this. The church, your your narcissist, and whoever else will listen to them in the mob is making you out to be an irreligious person in their eyes. So this person this person is not following god. This not person is not following Allah. This person is you've left the faith is what what the mantra will be.
Jon McKenney:And that's that winds up being the mob's excuse for not involving you in their lives and for departing from you. I know specifically in in in my life, it's it's unilaterally. Not only did my church not wanna hear the not not hear what I was going through and not not ask, They would not have a conversation with me about it, but my parents are doing the same thing. Why? Because they they believe I'm certain that I'm I'm faithless and that I've I've left the faith.
Jon McKenney:My kids, likewise, I've, you know, faithless and left the faith. Other friends, faithless and left left the faith. This is this is the mentality. And this is this is the this is the picture of you that they're trying to create that that makes you out to be the irreligious person when perhaps you are the most religious and faith filled person in the room.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. And I just wanna say they're judging you without knowing all the evidence, without knowing all the facts. Right? It's like when I go into a courtroom, even if I bring the motion, which allows me to go first and speak to the judge, I always let the opposition speak first. Do you know why?
Padideh Jafari:Because once the opposition starts their arguments, the judge is going to go, wow, that all makes sense. Right? And then there's a pause. And then it's like, okay, they turn to me. Okay, counsel, what's your position?
Padideh Jafari:And then I start to fill in the gaps. Right? And then they go, oh, okay. And so then the first person that spoke sounds like an idiot. Right?
Padideh Jafari:And they sound like they do not want to give the entire facts. Right? So I feel like in the church, even though we're taught not to judge, because the reality is we don't know the full story. And I feel like pastors do a lot of judging and finger pointing. And so they're like, well, look, she stayed in the church.
Padideh Jafari:She's doing all this stuff. And I always say covert female narcissists are the type that they're at the soccer events, they're at, you know, front row, they're they're baking the cookies for the teachers, they're, you know, PTA lead, all that stuff. Because they like leadership. They like to be seen. Right?
Padideh Jafari:Where like the victim is like trying to hold on for dear life. They're either depressed, suicidal, you know, they don't know what reality is anymore because they have a distorted reality because what they're living is constantly being questioned. And they're like, I you know, the narcissist, I didn't say that. This is your problem. You know, all this stuff.
Padideh Jafari:So I feel like in churches, there's a lot of judgment, and that's what I felt like. And that's why they can just shun you and say, okay. You're out. Mhmm. And we'll keep the person, you know, like your ex wife.
Padideh Jafari:We'll keep that person who keeps coming back even though that person is Yes. The narcissist.
Jon McKenney:Wanna read this because I I think this matters. And I wanna go back to a little disclaimer that we we shared last time around. Christian faith is Paditas and my background. So this this is not to be preachy in any kind of way. We're not trying to proselytize you.
Jon McKenney:We're not trying to change your mind in any kind of way that that that you need to go move towards Christianity. That is not the purpose of this. What we're talking about is the religious environment we are familiar with. And just because that's our religious tradition, we believe these things also happen in other religious traditions. We when we talk with pastors, it might be rabbis.
Jon McKenney:It might be it might be whoever the spiritual leaders are. So please make those intellectual jumps in your head to your own faith when we talk about these kinds of things. We're just talking about our own experience. And I I wanna I wanna come back to something in the scriptures. It says this.
Jon McKenney:And this is this is second Timothy three one, and it says, but mark this, there will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves. What does that sound like? A narcissist?
Padideh Jafari:Yes. Narcissist. Lovers of money.
Jon McKenney:Any of you guys been financially abused by a narcissist? I know I know my ex is hiding $20,000 on a credit card from me. Boastful. Sound like a narcissist? Proud.
Jon McKenney:Sound like a narcissist? Abusive. Sound like a narcissist. Disobedient to their parents. Maybe ungrateful.
Jon McKenney:Sound like a narcissist? Unholy. Sound like a narcissist? Without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather rather than lovers of God. And listen to this, having a form of godliness but denying its power.
Jon McKenney:What does that mean? It means that they they look religious. They they look ridiculously religious but really aren't. And this is where the scripture ends. It says this, have nothing to do with them.
Jon McKenney:So when we talk about no contact, we're talking about something that is a religious principle. It's describing specifically the character traits of somebody who is narcissistic and and have nothing to go do with them. Now where this will backfire on you is if you begin to do these kinds of things and you divorce or whatever you have to go do to stay away from the narcissist, you're saying you're you're drawing a line in the sand and saying, do not cross this line. I do not want a relationship with you. I don't wanna be in touch with you.
Jon McKenney:I don't want I don't wanna talk to you. And that that's how I feel about my narcissist ex. I'm I'm not interested in conversation. I'm not interested in texts. I I you know, if if something ridiculous is happening with the kids, absolutely text me, about those kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:But but, ultimately, if I I don't want any other relationship with you. But the other way they paint you as irreligious and the other way they paint you as off the rails is they will continue to offer relationship to you. They're in the church and they're going, I just love it if my husband came back, or I'd just love it if my my wife came back. My heart is open to that. I I I just hope that they they find their way back from their wandering faith and can and can and can have a relationship with me again.
Jon McKenney:When in reality, what's happening is the the narcissist wants you back in relationship so they can continue to be boastful, proud, abusive, unloving, ungrateful, and all those other kinds of things. The the bible teaches stay away from them. But because they're they're they continue to not only be open to relationship with you, but continue oftentimes to chase relationship with you. You know, in in narcissistic circles, we call that a hoover. So they are continuing to try and draw you back into relationships so that they can perpetuate their abuse.
Jon McKenney:And in these religious circles, they're like, my gosh, I would just love it if he would come back. I would love it if she would come back. I'm so open to relationship. My heart is just forgiving and full for them. I'll forgive them of anything that they've done to me if they I'm just open to relationship with them, and they'll even chase you for relationship and want to be your friend as certainly my ex has as well.
Jon McKenney:And I I'm not offering relationship to her. I'm taking that last part of the scripture and going, have nothing to do with them. I can't I cannot have anything to do with this person, but those kinds of things and those kinds of beliefs are ignored in the larger religious community and in in the mob. So you not only do not only are you painted as irreligious, but you are also painted as somebody who's not willing to return, and and that return winds up being their their line in the sand in order for for them to have relationship with you again when, in all honesty, you're better off without them all.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, yeah. And to to that point, my ex husband sent me a DM, which is direct message, asking me to go to dinner with him in Beverly Hills. And when I said, no. Absolutely not. Why would I want to?
Padideh Jafari:And this was in the last, I would
Jon McKenney:say, two words. Stick if you did. I'd I'd beat you with a stick. There's no there's no way you're going to go do that. And you've been divorced how long now?
Padideh Jafari:Wow. Fifteen years? Thirteen or fifteen years? And so and then when I said, no. Why would I wanna do that?
Padideh Jafari:He said, well, bring along your husband too.
Jon McKenney:Want to that.
Padideh Jafari:And I and I'm thinking to myself, on what planet on what planet does this man live on? And so I said, okay. I'm going to block this new account that you just established to reach out to me, and I blocked him. But then I told my husband. And my husband is such a great man.
Padideh Jafari:He just laughs. He's like, I have no doubt that he wants to see you because he lost a gem. And even though he's remarried by the way, my ex husband married a playboy playmate. So everything that he said to me that he was going to leave me for a younger model, all this stuff, he actually did all that. So you would think, third marriage, he's super happy now.
Padideh Jafari:But why would he reach out to me? Because like you said, he's trying to hoover me. He's trying to find his x supply. Right? And it's like my husband just laughs, and he's like, I don't blame him.
Padideh Jafari:The guy's miserable. He's a narcissist, and I would never break bread with this guy because of how he treated you and abused you. And what would be the point? We don't even have kids together. It's like, there's not like, we're not co parenting or anything.
Padideh Jafari:So it's just it just goes back to what you say these people are just they're evil. They really are evil.
Jon McKenney:Well, and they and they paint this narrative. Let's take your situation, for example, where you're like, I'm just not hanging out with this guy. If you guys were both in the same church, you'd be, oh, she's just not forgiving. You know, she's just she's so far from God because she doesn't wanna be around him. You know, it's been fifteen years, and she should really have forgiveness in her heart for this man.
Jon McKenney:And no. Right. That's that's what you're supposed to go do
Padideh Jafari:with this. And I wanted to speak to her about one thing. I have a 100% forgiven my ex husband. A 100%. However, I have not forgotten what he's done.
Padideh Jafari:And so I am no contact with him. And that's what I always recommend to people dealing with narcissists. Now, if you have a child, then you have to go limited contact. And there's ways that you can do that through parenting apps and things like that. So I've forgiven.
Padideh Jafari:I've not forgotten and I want nothing to do with him. So whenever he starts this, you know, new, Instagram or Tik TOK and he'll, you know, try to DM and all that stuff. I want nothing to do with them. And I don't waste my breath on him either, but I do reach out to you and I go, do you believe this shit? Excuse my language.
Padideh Jafari:But I literally go, do you believe this shit? And then I'll, like, screenshot it, and you're like, you get mad at me.
Jon McKenney:Do because I wanna beat him with a stick. That's crazy. I I just want him to leave you alone. It's like fifteen years is enough. I I don't want you you are living out your your faith.
Jon McKenney:You're living out your faith by not being in touch with him.
Padideh Jafari:So And also, by the way, he's remarried. So what type of woman would I be if I'm like, oh, yeah. Let's go and have a steak dinner at, you know, Morton's or Spago. Let's go have Italian food. Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:This sounds great. Let's, you know, let's go to Lavo. That's a those are places I go with my husband. Mhmm. I didn't even go with another man to have a a dinner.
Padideh Jafari:And what kind of woman would I be if I I thought that was okay when this guy is remarried the third time around?
Jon McKenney:And and, like, what what's what kind of conversation are you gonna have with this person over dinner? Hey. You know? Here's my new job. And I I mean, it's just it it's it's so it is an exercise in absolute ridiculousness that you even got asked.
Padideh Jafari:Right. But also not to throw your ex under the bus.
Jon McKenney:Go ahead.
Padideh Jafari:Your ex also asked you and would text you to come fix her
Jon McKenney:tub. And
Padideh Jafari:when you wouldn't respond for a couple of weeks, she would resend it as if you hadn't seen it. I mean, it was like I remember that, John. I think that was, like, the beginning of this year or last year. I was like
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:What is she thinking? Why does she think you're gonna just come over with your tools and fix her hot tub that she sits in either by herself or with another man. I'm just saying.
Jon McKenney:It wasn't quite like that. She wanted to get rid of it and wanted me to go work on it so it could be removed. But but, yeah, the the principle is the same. You know? Like like, I'm gonna go do that.
Jon McKenney:I mean, the the the appropriate response to somebody who's sane, which she's not, is that's for a that's a husband's job. And guess what? I'm I'm not your husband. We I I I have nothing to do with you. And and as much as as much as church or Christian mob or whoever it might be who has listened to these people or family even is saying, you need to offer relationship, you need to forgive and forget, our faith tradition teaches differently.
Jon McKenney:And it says, if these are the kinds of people you're dealing with and they've proven this over time, have absolutely nothing to go do with them. And this is unfamiliar. I think This is unfamiliar territory in the church. The church wants to be redemptive. They want everybody to play nice.
Jon McKenney:And and sometimes it's just that one, they don't dig deep enough to find this list of crap that's going on. And then on the other end of it, they just want you to be forgiving. But there's a difference between being forgiving and setting yourself in the in the in the path of a bus. You I I can I can forget? Yes.
Jon McKenney:Again.
Padideh Jafari:I bet. Like, you've already done it once. And you're you're you know, they try to take you out and you were depressed, suicidal, on medication, all the above. And now the Church wants you to go back again into that snake pit with them. And you're like, No, absolutely not.
Padideh Jafari:I 100% forgive. I will not forget. And I want nothing to do with them. Means no contact. So do not under any circumstances let the Church or this person or your family, pastor, I don't care, cat, dog, whatever, try to guilt trip you because that's the other thing churches do.
Padideh Jafari:They'll guilt trip you. Well, you know, the person has changed. No, they have not because we know that narcissists do not change and they cannot change. So do not, because that's the next thing that's going to happen, John. Yep.
Padideh Jafari:Do not let them guilt trip you. Stand firm where you are and just say, flee from me. And, you know, they'll flee from you. They'll come back around, but you gotta do it every time.
Jon McKenney:Yep. And these are the tactics. Again, they're painting you as an irreligious person. And this last thing I I kinda wanted to address may even be more personal in some respects. It's it's one thing that they paint you as irreligious because you're not following the, perhaps, the individual verse of scripture, but you're following the the heart of the scriptures or the heart of your faith.
Jon McKenney:But I think that all of this can can make you question your own faith as well. And I think this has been the hardest part for me. And let me kind of unpack that a little bit. I certainly believe in God. I believe in Jesus.
Jon McKenney:That's my Christian tradition. You you have your your personal faith as well in whatever being that might be, and I hope you appreciate that. So when I've prayed and I've asked God for help, here I am, and I I it's like and ultimately, what what I I'd hoped for was my ex's healing. Like, she would she would move from being this kind of person that that list describes, boastful, proud, all those other kinds of things, into being a genuine person of faith. And that didn't happen.
Jon McKenney:And ultimately, my departure from my relationship with her, divorcing her, which I I again, I've said this before on on on Mike, and I'll say it again. I don't believe in divorce, but I did it. I I I that's that's how far it it took me. And that and my divorcing her was my last means of telling her the way you are living is not a not being a person of faith and is completely unacceptable. She wouldn't pay attention to those kinds of things when I was having those conversations with her when we were married.
Jon McKenney:So it was my last ditch. It was the last card I could play to say, I'm sorry, but the way you're living and the way you're treating me is unacceptable. So you ask God for help and you feel like he's not showed up. The church has betrayed you. And not worse than betraying you, They have probably not even listened to your side of the story.
Jon McKenney:That's certainly the case in in in my my shoes as well. They paint you as irreligious because you divorce or leave the person or are not submissive in your case or not leading like in my case and beat you over the head with the scriptures or whatever faith tradition or document they might have. And you are left on the other side of this reeling in your faith and going and and worse yet worse yet, you are you are attached to somebody who claims to be religious and is genuinely not a person of faith. So you your your head messes with you because, I mean, if this this person says they're a Christian, this person says they're they're a person of faith, If that's what this faith is like, I want nothing to do with it. Correct.
Jon McKenney:And and and you reach this place where you are in this crisis of faith where you go, okay. All of the people who are Christians, quote, unquote, have abandoned you. And I'll go through the list in my situation, my church, my pastor, my friends, my my my my my parents, my sisters, my kids, all have all have abandoned relationship with me in one shape, one form, or another because they believe I divorced, and they believe this is against their their their tradition. And and, eventually, you go, okay. If if this is what it's all about, if this is what faith is all about, then I'm just kinda out.
Jon McKenney:And there's this temptation to just walk away from it all. And I've known people on both sides. Some people just double down and go, you know what? This has made my faith stronger. God is with me, and God is protecting me, and he's helped me to to move from one place to another.
Jon McKenney:And I think you've said words like that, you know, where you felt like your faith is stronger through this. And I kind of come come at this from the other side where I go, it has questioned it has made me question my faith. It has made me question the church. It has made me question people who claim to be Christians and and act like the most unloving people on the planet. And this is the result.
Jon McKenney:This is the end result of of narcissistic abuse for many people. And you're left with with a shattered kind of faith and going, okay. What what what is faith again? We have to kinda go back to square one, and I I've had to go back to square one. What is Christianity?
Jon McKenney:What is it is it is this. Do I do I still believe in this? Yes. I believe in this. Do I still believe in this?
Jon McKenney:Yes. I believe in this. But I I can't embrace what the church has become, and I I won't embrace what they've come that become. That doesn't mean that there isn't perhaps another body of faith that would embrace me. But this particular one, I've had to separate myself from.
Jon McKenney:I've had to I've had to go back and question what I was raised in because my parents are acting this way. And it will when when your whole world turns upside down, it it can feel like god has left you, and it can feel like your faith is gone. And there are a couple things I would like to say to you if you're in those if if you're in that position. One is that God has not left you or whatever your version of him is. God has not left you.
Jon McKenney:God loves you. God cares for you. And these kinds of things have happened to you not because you didn't work at the right thing and not because these people claim to be who who claim to be people of faith are people of faith. They're not. And you have to realize that because because your actions will follow your heart.
Jon McKenney:And and if somebody's consistently don't follow their heart, you have to question what's really inside their heart. So if a narcissist claims to be a person of faith, but continues to abuse you, continues to be a lover of money, and and for money to be the most important thing, to be proud, to be deceptive, to go you go back through that list, if you like, and see and go, this is this the way they're acting? Because out of the out of the heart, the mouth speaks and out of the heart, people act. So you it it instead of making you question your own faith, I would I would question theirs instead.
Padideh Jafari:That's a great way to put it. Oh my goodness.
Jon McKenney:And realize that that, again, is a tree is known by its fruit. And if the fruit of somebody's life is hatred, malice, abuse, anger, rage, deception, gaslighting. Put that if if that's if that's the what what comes out of them consistently, then what's inside them is not real. And you have to realize that. And that person can be a pastor.
Jon McKenney:That person can be a parent. It can be a friend. It can be part of the Christian mob. It can be anybody in your circle of friends. Instead of questioning your faith, realize that God is present, that he cares for you, and and part of his leaving was part of his protection for you and and you're honoring him and not offering your body or your life to somebody to continue to be a punching bag.
Padideh Jafari:Is a good person and not a narcissist. You said, I hope that she finds healing. Like, a narcissist would never ever ever say that. Right? Because they don't care about you.
Padideh Jafari:They just want to hurt you, and they want when you're hurt, that's when they're happy. So for you to say that after everything that you've been through, John, just goes to show that you're an empath, you are a man of faith. Listen, it's okay. Like, God is not scared when we are actually questioning our faith. Not like he's sitting up there going, well, you know what?
Padideh Jafari:This I did not expect. And he doesn't want us just to be blindly obedient to him.
Jon McKenney:Yep. Yep.
Padideh Jafari:And so when people say that, and I have had people say like, where is God in all this? And I'm like, okay. Well, let's let's take some accountability here. Did you choose this person or did God choose this person? Well, I don't know.
Padideh Jafari:You know, I kinda got in the flesh. You know how Christians talk. Kinda got in the flesh and, you know, but all but I had a gut feeling. Okay. Well, that gut feeling is the Holy Spirit, by the way, that you did not listen to.
Padideh Jafari:And now you've got yourself in this relationship or marriage with someone when God was never in that. And so I think as victim survivors, we also have to take accountability for our parts in it. Otherwise, we're no better than the narcissist. Right? Yep.
Padideh Jafari:And so what you said was so impactful. You said, I pray, and I hope that she heals from this.
Jon McKenney:Yep.
Padideh Jafari:And so we really just wanna leave you with that is that you're not alone. We say this every, you know, every episode. You're not alone. We understand you. We are a healthy, positive community of survivors.
Jon McKenney:And your god has not betrayed you. Your god has not betrayed you in this. People have betrayed you who perhaps do not have genuine faith, but god your god has not betrayed you, and he's with you. Padita, an amazing conversation today, and I'd speaking of healing, I hope you feel better. I know you're you're under the weather.
Jon McKenney:Thanks for doing the podcast anyways today. I think this was good conversation, I hope you have a wonderful week. And for those of you who are regular listeners, if you have questions or wanna converse with us about these things, you can reach us at nark. Podcast on Instagram or Padida is on Instagram, JafariLegal is her nickname there. I'm male victims of female narcissists on Instagram as well, and I can be reached there.
Jon McKenney:Also, if you're interested, you can reach out to me at malevictimsoffemalenarcissist dot com. By the way, I don't even know that we've mentioned, we do have a website too. You can find us at link again? What is narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com. I had a brain meltdown there for a second.
Jon McKenney:But but we're on the web too, and you can find all our latest podcast there.
Padideh Jafari:And I just wanted to mention too, this is a little bit of a treat, but John does one on one coaching. And I just started a coaching business as well because what happens is a lot of our listeners come to us and they're like, well, my case is in a different state, so you can't help me. But they do need coaching to kind of get through the divorce process and so and a lot of attorneys unfortunately don't know how to deal with narcissists so we are offering now one on one coaching as well
Jon McKenney:That's fantastic. Thanks for reminding me about that and absolutely if you're interested reach out to either one of us and we'd be happy to help you. So we hope you have a wonderful week and we hope that your life is narc free.
Voiceover:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handled narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.