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Host Stacy Havener brings you the storytelling tips, sales strategies, behavioral secrets, and inspirational stories that help YOU turn your words into dollars. Learn from sales and marketing experts. Meet finance and investment leaders, founders and fund managers who have made it, and the ones on the rise. Because there are people behind the portfolios. Their stories matter. So does yours.
@stacyhavener // www.billiondollarbackstory.com/
[00:00:00] Paul Bodnar: If you're talking to an asset manager, it's better to be upfront and out there about things that haven't worked and haven't gone well. And that can be something of, Hey, this was a bad year. It's really nice just to have that. People are going to ask about it, but it's easier if you kind of address that out of the gate.
[00:00:13] Paul Bodnar: Or there's some noise in the story, right? Some of the best investments we've had are. There's noise. Like there was something funny, a partner left. You're like, ah, do I really want to go through all this and figure this out? But the more upfront and crisper everybody is about it, that oftentimes easier it is.
[00:00:28] Paul Bodnar: And it generally for us, isn't a deal breaker.
[00:00:32] Stacy Havener: Hey, my name is Stacey Havener. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys club, wall street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets. You could say against the odds, yeah.
[00:00:53] Stacy Havener: Understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you [00:01:00] how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales, and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class you wish you had in college mixed with happy hour.
[00:01:17] Stacy Havener: Pull up a seat, grab your notebook and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn. This is the billion dollar backstory podcast.
[00:01:29] Stacy Havener: There's a narrative out there that active management is dead, that investment boutiques don't matter. That specialists are out and generalists are in, not in the halls of this family office, not with this CIO at the helm. Today's guest is Paul Bodnar, CIO at a 2 billion multifamily office called CM Wealth, where actively managed specialist strategies from investment boutiques are exactly what they look for.
[00:01:59] Stacy Havener: And it's also [00:02:00] the type of business they want to build, a firm that thinks differently. Specializes in unique strategies, doesn't fit the proverbial mold of serving ultra high net worth families. This episode is part of our Ask an Allocator series. Not only will you get to know Paul and hear his insights on the industry, you'll also get a glimpse into what due diligence looks like for him and his team.
[00:02:25] Stacy Havener: What matters. Why it matters. How specialists can shine. Without further ado. Here's my friend, Paul. Thank you so much for joining us in the billion dollar backstory studio today. It's a pleasure to have you here and I'm psyched to have our listeners be a fly on the wall for this conversation. Thank you for your time.
[00:02:48] Paul Bodnar: Thanks for having me. I'm excited for the interview and to have a good discussion.
[00:02:52] Stacy Havener: Yeah, and this one's a little different. As you know, having been in this business for a long time instead of spending our time today [00:03:00] talking about the markets and views and that kind of stuff, we're going to dive into the more qualitative side.
[00:03:07] Stacy Havener: We're going to talk about the people behind the portfolios. And I'd love to start with your backstory. So tell us about your journey into the investment world, into your role. Like, is this what you always knew you wanted to do since you were little? Like unpack it for us.
[00:03:24] Paul Bodnar: Yes and no. So I mean, when I was younger, you know, my father was kind of around the investment industry and thought I would probably, that was one option of where I would end
[00:03:33] Stacy Havener: up,
[00:03:34] Paul Bodnar: but I took a pretty non traditional path.
[00:03:37] Paul Bodnar: So we're winding back to post sophomore year of college. I took an internship in DC for the summer, got to stay, I was in school in Baltimore and went to a tech company. So this is. I guess I'll date myself exactly 1998. So why is it the first dot com bubble? And it was an internet company. So kind of ironically, we were dealing with some internet issues, like, you know, that [00:04:00] those types of people were responsible for it.
[00:04:02] Paul Bodnar: Um, and I was one of the first 20 employees there. So I ended up stopping school, not returning from my junior year and went all the way through from first 2020 employees all the way through an IPO. So that was kind of my first experience. It's like, I was around finance, obviously, you know, in that, in that role, you know, we're getting data and things ready for the IPO, but that was my, my experience.
[00:04:25] Paul Bodnar: I was not a finance person. Wasn't on the investment side was really a little bit more tech oriented, despite I was a finance major in school. I stayed there through the IPO. I lucked out where I decided that, Hey, maybe there's another great next. com out there and I'll leave. Almost went to a company that did co location and data centers in 2000, which
[00:04:44] Stacy Havener: wasn't
[00:04:45] Paul Bodnar: really a big thing, but maybe that would have been the right career move.
[00:04:48] Paul Bodnar: Uh, looking, you know, looking today, like 20 years ago, you'd be like, you're the 20 year veteran in data centers. Like you're a genius, right? And I kept going to school with George Washington at the time. And then, [00:05:00] uh, the dot com bubble kind of did burst. Did get, you know, sold some of the shares, but you know, it wasn't some huge wealth creating event.
[00:05:07] Paul Bodnar: And eventually we decided to go back to school originally kind of wanted to go into investment banking in that end. And then I did that finished up and then I became a sell side equity analyst. So Did really well there came up pretty quickly in that group took on my own coverage after just a few short years And I had a little bit more of experience and you know in the working world than a lot of people Did well won some awards there for you know best on the street from the wall street journal and that covered industrials You Which was, you know, very different than tech, but love that space too, very cyclical, but that industry started to face some issues, you know, more broadly, like my big client base where some of the very well known long, short hedge funds that went through some struggles, particularly starting kind of post GFC, but really 2012, 13, you kind of saw the writing on the wall that passive was rising.
[00:05:52] Paul Bodnar: The commissions were coming down and I was pretty young at the time. I did think that there was a chance that. If you were very specialist and unique, [00:06:00] you could not only sell your data to your counterparts on the buy side, but they would had broader applications to companies. So I did try to leave the firm I was at, started my own thing for a couple of years, but still just kind of the headwinds were too big on the investment side.
[00:06:13] Paul Bodnar: And then all the business was really more, some of the companies wanted to do a specialist research project, started to see private equity interest in doing some research work for them. But I was not. Someone that really wanted to do market research, didn't want to have a business doing market research was still more investment oriented and then decided to kind of join a pretty sizable multifamily office in town, which is where I am today.
[00:06:34] Paul Bodnar: So that was really being able to look across asset classes. You know, they had a very similar. Viewpoint to what I did. And I think that we share that you can generate alpha, you can get out performance, you do need to look at inefficient markets to do that. And that's where you should put your time into
[00:06:49] Stacy Havener: a lot
[00:06:50] Paul Bodnar: of private market investing, which really kind of was able to utilize some of my skills as a sell side analyst and kind of broad industry experience, just diving into companies.
[00:06:58] Paul Bodnar: And then, you know, over the past [00:07:00] eight years I've been here and then became CIO last year of a company.
[00:07:03] Stacy Havener: Congrats. That's awesome.
[00:07:05] Paul Bodnar: So that's kind of, uh, either the long or short version, depending how you look at it.
[00:07:09] Stacy Havener: I love it. Well, what a journey. I mean, what a journey to be at a tech company in that time, right?
[00:07:16] Stacy Havener: With hindsight, because it could have. So you were One of the first 20 employees, it could have gone. So many companies didn't make it out of that. You actually got the, like, what a ride that must have been the things that you see when you build a company to that scale. Like, I'm sure there's so many lessons and maybe we'll get into some of them today.
[00:07:35] Paul Bodnar: Yeah, the company still ended up bankrupt as many of the ISPs did, but yeah, it's your point that, you know, a lot of lessons and where it's been really nice is on the venture capital side of what we do, you know, we're pretty active there do a lot of seed stage and, you know, I have a little bit of context and history to kind of draw from on.
[00:07:55] Paul Bodnar: Most people investing in that space have been doing it for 15 years and really weren't around. [00:08:00] For that bubble burst and some of the errors of the past. And we definitely, you know, history, the old history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And that's kind of been the case recently.
[00:08:08] Stacy Havener: Let's stay with that actually, because I wonder, especially given Your backstory, if that leads you to ask different questions during the due diligence process and specifically, like, are there qualitative questions that you know you ask and red flags that you might see that someone else might not recognize had they not gone through what you did?
[00:08:32] Paul Bodnar: That's a good question. You know, I think one, probably more acutely aware of when too much money's going into a space, you know, we saw that at that point in time. So really looking around for making sure whether the dollar that fund is raising or just the dollar in that market that we would say kind of You're raising for the size of the opportunity, basically not just as much as you can, you know, so raised for the size of the investment opportunity just at a high level.
[00:08:57] Paul Bodnar: But I think the other thing, you know, is really how [00:09:00] we talk to people and kind of get a gauge for them, right? Is this somebody that understands that things don't move up into the right, that I covered industrials and I covered deep cyclicals, things that just violently like Do really well, then lose money.
[00:09:13] Paul Bodnar: So I've always had this viewpoint of cyclicality and we'll stick with the venture theme, right? That has a cyclicality to it as well, right? Like private equity in some of these, like where you want to be at different spots in time and the businesses you're buying, like they're going to face challenges.
[00:09:27] Paul Bodnar: So I think it's really someone that understands that that's been through a little bit of that, and it's prepared to deal with some of that volatility. Versus the excessive optimism of pets. com.
[00:09:39] Stacy Havener: But not that we just lived through it again, but it started to have a bit of that field, didn't it? This most recent run up, because there was so much money sloshing around.
[00:09:51] Stacy Havener: There was so much money sloshing around that it almost at times felt like the company was more, more focused on raising money and [00:10:00] celebrating the raises than it was on building the business and getting clients.
[00:10:05] Paul Bodnar: Yes to all of that, I think, right? Like, you know, one, but if you're the company and people were, you know, just had another interview, it's like, if someone's passed around a plate of cookies, take one, you know, it's a good lesson.
[00:10:17] Paul Bodnar: And one is an investor. You could be like, you know, Hey, like, maybe that means take money off the table. But the other side of that is if I'm a company, And people want to give me more money. I mean, we're finally seeing that come to roost, right? Because a lot of them had two, three years of runway because they raised so much.
[00:10:29] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:10:30] Paul Bodnar: But there's definitely been a lot of challenges and kind of sticking with that venture theme. I mean, there's nowhere more cute, right? That if we look at like the consumer side of FinTech. You were just like, what are you doing with these businesses? You have five, six businesses in a space that are all valued at 10 plus billion.
[00:10:46] Paul Bodnar: In order to get a really, an outcome on this, that's worthy of that risk needs to become a 50 plus billion dollar company in a space that there's no way it supports five of them. So the odds are, I'm going to get two to as many as all five going [00:11:00] bankrupt that are zeros. Like you just couldn't make the risk reward book at when you just kind of took a step back at the macro level.
[00:11:05] Paul Bodnar: Yeah. And that was one where you throw a lot of money at it. Profitability was far, far down the list. And now you've seen that shift, right? Past couple of years, profitability is really big, particularly, you know, on the software space, it's not growth at all costs, it's gross margin oriented and kind of weeding out some of the less great ideas.
[00:11:21] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:11:22] Paul Bodnar: Same thing you've seen in, you know, life science is another good example of that, right? Where people were going public way too early and now you're kind of seeing like some of those are struggling. They were good science, but. Kind of at a weird spot, but the best companies are still have really started to get funding again.
[00:11:37] Stacy Havener: I agree with you. Yeah. And, and I think too, to your point on all businesses, don't go up into the right. You could even say that for the asset management space too, right? It's like the perception when you model out the business you're building, whatever that business is, you know, you model it kind of price to perfection, right?
[00:11:56] Stacy Havener: You model a line that goes up into the right, which. Hopefully it [00:12:00] does, but what you don't realize is the volatility of the line on that path, and I would think that whether you're analyzing a company for a co investment or direct investment or a manager getting to know the people who are. Leading that venture matters a lot because it's like, have you ever, if the only thing you've ever seen to your point is this most recent market, there's a lot probably coming your way that you may or may not be ready for.
[00:12:33] Stacy Havener: And so how do you, how do you think about that when you're, when you're talking to a manager? Let's switch to maybe managers. How much does their time in the business matter? And how do you ask questions to sort of understand? Not necessarily what's going to happen in good times, but how are they going to manage through the tough times?
[00:12:51] Paul Bodnar: A couple of things, you know, one getting to know them and spending time with them, not just in one meeting, but over a period of time is, I think, [00:13:00] probably the most important thing for us. There's a couple of things, you know, you focus on, you know, one it's, it's, Hey, don't just give me a case study of the winners, but let's talk about some things that didn't work, some failures, you know, whether it was both with the business as well as with some investments and what were the lessons learned?
[00:13:14] Paul Bodnar: Like, how were you thinking about that? What did you try to do at the time? What would you do differently this time? I think those are probably more important sets of questions versus the positive case study. Like everybody has something that worked out. And it's really hard to gauge, like, did they really know what they're doing?
[00:13:31] Paul Bodnar: Or was it luck? Those are the easy ones to underwrite. It's kind of like, Hey, what about the ones that went wrong and what happened there and then what did you learn? And another thing too, it's, you can talk to people. It's like, Hey, what do you want to be as a business? And what do you see from this in five years?
[00:13:44] Paul Bodnar: Where do you see this? Where do you see it in 10 years? And you can find if there's alignment there too. That, Hey, I'm 50, a hundred, 200 million is today, but I want to be 5 billion in this strategy. It's like, well, maybe that's not really a fit for us. Right. Going back to what I said, it's really kind of kind of [00:14:00] get a gauge of the person.
[00:14:01] Paul Bodnar: And then too, there's just that personalized getting to know somebody over a period of time. Like I think someone that's a little bit more genuine, that doesn't necessarily have the cookie cutter background,
[00:14:11] Stacy Havener: not that that
[00:14:12] Paul Bodnar: can't work, but I think a little bit of diversity of thought in a team, not everyone's kind of the same as helpful.
[00:14:18] Stacy Havener: That's a part of diversity that you don't hear talked about often. I think analysts look for it, but as an industry, you know, there's some much more tangible things we talk about for diversity purposes, but diversity of thought is a really big thing. And I think when you get people from, to your point, different backgrounds, different areas of study, you know, Everybody went to the same school and got the economics degree.
[00:14:44] Stacy Havener: And, you know, it's like, there's a lot of yes ing that's going to happen at the table potentially versus maybe more challenging that you'd want to see amongst an investment team. And so how do you get to that? Like, do you meet with all [00:15:00] the different constituents who make up the investment team and try to understand the dynamic?
[00:15:04] Paul Bodnar: Yeah, you know, I give you an example. You know, we're headed to New York to meet with an investment team and I've met them in our offices. I've met him numerous times over zoom a couple of things. And it's like the purpose is just to meet the rest of the investment process, right? To see a, how do you guys work together?
[00:15:19] Paul Bodnar: How do your skill sets compliment each other? Sometimes giving you the opposing stories, you know, maybe the easiest, but that's a name for a larger middle market, private equity firm. I just remember being at their first annual meeting one time and We were taking a look. Everyone looked and sounded and dressed exactly the same, right?
[00:15:36] Paul Bodnar: Like there was a whole bunch of them and not to knock that space, but it seemed like the solution was, yeah, you know, I know healthcare. I know this space. I know that space, but we're going to buy the business. We're going to call McKinsey. McKinsey is going to tell us to do some stuff. And then we're going to do that.
[00:15:48] Paul Bodnar: Right. And you're like, oh, okay. Like, And they did okay.
[00:15:50] Stacy Havener: Yeah,
[00:15:51] Paul Bodnar: we didn't really invest, but they've been okay. They've also just been bang on median average, right? Which is what you would get with that, like what you would expect, right? So you're not going to get anything [00:16:00] special, you know, necessarily investing that way, but some people are happy kind of just riding the beta wave.
[00:16:05] Paul Bodnar: Sure.
[00:16:06] Stacy Havener: Well, it's a great point. Cause I don't think people would necessarily associate beta with private equity, but every market has beta. Every market has beta. And I think what's Unique about Cm is that you are still Looking for alpha and it's interesting when I talk to boutiques This is something that comes up a lot and i'd love your perspective on this actually There's so much m& a happening in the wealth management space And these larger firms keep gobbling up, you know, kind of all the players really and then You know, they're sort of forcing some Um RIAs and multifamily offices who have a unique investment philosophy, they're forcing those firms into like, okay, well, this is the model we run and it's really scalable and it's really different than what the firm originally set out to do on the investment side.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Stacy Havener: And it's challenging for the boutiques because they're like, all my people are getting gobbled up by these conglomerates. And how do you think about that in terms of staying true to who you are and sort of being one? I don't want to say you're one of the last few standing, but you really do hold yourself out as this differentiated investment approach.
[00:17:21] Paul Bodnar: I think that's a great point. I mean, I think it's one of the great observations that we're seeing with all this M& A activity in the space. It starts a little bit with the client. You know, a lot of clients have been kind of programmed to say, Hey, passive, passive works. There's no such thing as alpha, right?
[00:17:34] Paul Bodnar: I can show you our portfolios. I can tell you that's not true, but that's been a piece of it. But I talked to other RAs in the space that are going through this process. And my first question to one of the CIOs there was like, how do you do this? You have four different, you're merging four different similar size firms.
[00:17:51] Paul Bodnar: All of a sudden, either one, you're going to have to cover, you know, a hundred some managers or something like that. You can't really do things unique or two, like you have to impose the centralized [00:18:00] viewpoint, right? And he's like, well, we're going through case by case and we're going to. Move everyone into our standard portfolio.
[00:18:07] Paul Bodnar: And my next question was like, aren't all these people taxable? Like you got to pay, make that change. You got to pay tax on that too. Like it's not free talks
[00:18:14] Stacy Havener: about that. Yeah.
[00:18:15] Paul Bodnar: And definitely not in our space where we're kind of ultra high net worth, like all the money's taxable and it's like, well, you know, we think it'll be better.
[00:18:21] Paul Bodnar: It's like, well, you really better think it's a lot better. So you don't get. Suit on that front, but then number two, you get into this, you start getting size and you're seeing these 30 billion RAs and greater a lot of the strategies that we invest in. And I noticed these, you see the world same way that there may be, you know, there's a fund that targets kind of micro small cap that can manage about 250 million.
[00:18:43] Paul Bodnar: And done great tons of outperformance, you know, we have a nice size chunk in there, but when you start getting to that size They couldn't write it when they do a hundred million dollar check and be half the fund like it doesn't really work It's the same problem that you have with the large Consultants in in the institutional space that they [00:19:00] really can't go out after these smaller managers And then you get into the private equity side.
[00:19:04] Paul Bodnar: It's the same issue So you're either saying hey only these clients get it. We can't get it to everybody You You kind of get into some fairness issues there and how you manage that. So yeah, I think that there's a lot of challenges at that scale. And then just how do you find the best ideas and have real conviction, right?
[00:19:20] Paul Bodnar: Like, you know, we, we're not trying to find 30 ideas in a year.
[00:19:33] Stacy Havener: Are you an investment boutique looking to grow your business and need a little help? If you feel like you're fighting for the spotlight and well, still stuck in the shadows of the bigs, join us in the Boutique Investment Collective, Havener's new membership community dedicated to the specialists in the investment industry.
[00:19:49] Stacy Havener: In the collective, we'll guide you through the billion dollar blueprint we've used to help boutiques add over 30 billion in AUM. You'll refine your story, focus on your ideal [00:20:00] target market, and practice your pitch. You'll rethink your marketing materials, rewrite your emails, and refresh your differentiators.
[00:20:07] Stacy Havener: We'll even help you step up your LinkedIn game and give your profile a makeover. You want to grow your biz, we've got your back. Learn more about The Collective, the curriculum, and the amazing coaches who will help you on your journey. Visit havenercapital. com slash collective. High five! Hope to see you in a coaching session soon.
[00:20:41] Stacy Havener: It's actually the same phenomenon that we talk about on the asset management side, which is at some point you're really unique, awesome strategy that generates all this alpha. At some point, the size of the portfolios you're running is going to start degrading that alpha [00:21:00] generation. And I've RIAs, but you're 100 percent right.
[00:21:06] Stacy Havener: If you want to offer differentiated Line up of managers, alpha generators and your 30 billion. You have the same issue that the bigs have on the asset management side. You can't take a meaningful stake in those names anymore. You're forced by your size into a certain type of investment with a certain type of firm.
[00:21:26] Paul Bodnar: Yeah. And then you get into structuring issues too, right? Like we're really lucky where we have a robust back office that allows us to take an SMA, put a wrapper around it and all our clients come in as a single entity. So grandkids, everyone gets that same set. These larger, larger groups don't want to deal with that.
[00:21:43] Paul Bodnar: I mean, that's, that's one of our benefits is a heritage of family office, but that allows us to, to do a lot and have a lot of flexibility that they just can't have.
[00:21:52] Stacy Havener: It's a great for firms who are willing to sort of keep their sort of flag in the sand about this is who we are and this is what we stand for.
[00:21:59] Stacy Havener: I would [00:22:00] imagine for you, that type of M& A activity just allows CM to further differentiate yourself because the clients who want what you have, there's less and less options of who they, I mean, the supply demand is totally in your favor.
[00:22:14] Paul Bodnar: We think so. I mean, one of our kind of things that we may brag a little bit about is we have, we have no private equity money.
[00:22:21] Paul Bodnar: We've solved the succession issue. We've continued to pass ownership down. You know, really internally and don't have a big desire to have any M& A or be part of something bigger like that and ruin our independence.
[00:22:34] Stacy Havener: We
[00:22:34] Paul Bodnar: can really look at it as what's best for the client. And I think that's one thing when you hear about the M& A and the RAA space, I've heard all kinds of reasons from.
[00:22:45] Paul Bodnar: Advisors, RAAs, why this is really good for them. The one thing I have not had a good answer on is like, why is this good for the client? I really haven't, you know, the level of service that generally is, you start getting diluted, right? It becomes smaller pools. You [00:23:00] become a little bit further away. I think from the investment side, we've kind of talked about that, but you know, that's, that's something that we think about and probably really comes from our family office.
[00:23:08] Paul Bodnar: Heritage is a single family office before we really started to grow outside of that Of the clients really first and it's kind of making sure we serve that
[00:23:17] Stacy Havener: Let's talk about the roots a little bit and the family office I think it's always interesting when you you have a multi family office that starts from a single family office I think you see it more and more and i'm curious On this whole vibe of like finding like minded people attract and repel So well, let me ask some questions.
[00:23:36] Stacy Havener: So the family behind cm Entrepreneurial?
[00:23:40] Paul Bodnar: Yes. Owned a business that sold in 1983.
[00:23:45] Stacy Havener: Okay. And so do you find threads from that family and their experience that resonate with clients who come on either that they're entrepreneurial or even industry specific or like how much does the roots of the [00:24:00] family office play into the attract and repel that happens as you're growing the firm?
[00:24:06] Paul Bodnar: Yeah, good question. I think because we're starting to get back in age, like, you know, that happened, that liquidity event was, you know, in the early eighties, it's probably a little less as a direct thread industry wide, you know, within that industry and peers. But what is very true is some of kind of the lessons learned along the way that, you know, you went through generational wealth transfer within that saw a lot of issues and dynamics within that family.
[00:24:31] Paul Bodnar: Right. That has really become applicable well beyond that. So other people over time when they were looking at it for their situations were able to say, Hey, this is a group that didn't just pop up last night that has kind of deep experience and long experience dealing with some of these family dynamics and generational wealth transfer and philanthropy and all these different ways that each family wants to build their own legacy.
[00:24:54] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:24:54] Paul Bodnar: And we can help execute that. So I think that that family has, you know, really successfully [00:25:00] established kind of legacy of purpose for lack of a better word.
[00:25:03] Stacy Havener: Oh, that's nice,
[00:25:04] Paul Bodnar: man. I think that that has continued to kind of, you know, resonate beyond that and say, Hey, like that's something we can look towards.
[00:25:10] Paul Bodnar: And, you know, the other thing I'd say we're very proud of that happened along the way is, you know, that founding family is probably 25 percent or so of the assets now. So we've really, you know, diversified and gotten beyond that.
[00:25:20] Stacy Havener: I love the legacy of purpose. What a great phrase. And I think that
[00:25:26] Paul Bodnar: we threw it on our website because we liked it so much.
[00:25:28] Paul Bodnar: Oh,
[00:25:28] Stacy Havener: good. Yeah. No, it's a great phrase. And it's funny. I was having a conversation with another multifamily office similar like single family at the root and then expanded out to include other families. And what was really interesting. I wonder if it's true for you is The families don't particularly focus on the returns.
[00:25:51] Stacy Havener: It's not like you meet with one of these families and they say, Oh, Paul, thank you so much for the meeting. Let's start with your returns. Could I see the numbers, [00:26:00] please? Like, that's just not how meetings work. It's not how they should work when it's allocator to asset manager, and it's not how they work when it's allocator to end client.
[00:26:10] Stacy Havener: So talk a little bit about what those conversations are like with your clients, what they care about. Okay.
[00:26:15] Paul Bodnar: really good comparison. I haven't heard, you know, necessarily made between those two with how we meet with the manager and think about it and also meet with our clients. It's not return based. It's like, Hey, am I doing okay on this front?
[00:26:25] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:26:26] Paul Bodnar: And it's interesting. It also varies a bit by asset base. There's a point, and let's call it, I don't know, 20, 25 million, something like that, where people become much less return focused.
[00:26:36] Stacy Havener: At
[00:26:37] Paul Bodnar: 10, 15 million, still pretty sensitive to what's going on in the market and return focused. So there is a differentiation.
[00:26:43] Paul Bodnar: As you start to get larger though, And this is true in both those groups, it's on the investment side, what are you doing different? You know, we talk about what we're doing in private markets. We talk about some of the unique managers we have in liquid in public markets as well. And really how we're, [00:27:00] what's our philosophy and thought process behind that?
[00:27:02] Paul Bodnar: And why do we think we can kind of deliver some sort of repeatable? Outperformance or performance. The other big focus though is really on, Hey, how is this? And what are we doing to achieve my bigger long term goal? Some of them, it's efficient transfer of wealth to their kids and helping to fund maybe a family foundation.
[00:27:20] Paul Bodnar: Some of it, they may be dealing with some, you know, estate issues. So it's really around those other key happenings and their lives and how we're helping them with that. That's 90 caught 80 percent of the meeting is around that. And the investments in that kind of just helping them fulfill it and get on that side.
[00:27:35] Stacy Havener: So interesting because there's so as you're talking, I'm like, you could easily be describing allocator to asset manager, right? It's like for you with your clients. Of course, you have to be good at what you do. Like, that's table stakes. They're not going to hire you if you know you're just Okay. Horrible at picking investments.
[00:27:53] Stacy Havener: Like that's just not real. So you're good at what you do
[00:27:57] Paul Bodnar: Answer the question like why am I paying you? [00:28:00] Yeah
[00:28:01] Stacy Havener: Yeah, you have to defend
[00:28:03] Paul Bodnar: that
[00:28:03] Stacy Havener: you're really good at what you do and you pick unique and different opportunities, which to me Is the defense, right? Like you're not gonna, you're not going to look at your investment, you know, your portfolio statement from CM and see all the firms that are on the money page of USA Today.
[00:28:19] Stacy Havener: That's just, it's going to have different stuff in it and that's worth something. But I love what you said that, you know, they come in with Human challenges, not just investment challenges. It's like our family's been successful and these are the real things we're thinking about. And how can you help us?
[00:28:37] Stacy Havener: And yes, investments is a piece of that, but it's not the only piece. Yeah, I think that it's great for boutiques to hear that, because I think it speaks to the opportunity of identifying the problem. And sometimes it's not what you think. Let's stay with that actually for a second, because I wonder how you deal with this.
[00:28:58] Stacy Havener: So when you invest in [00:29:00] unique and differentiated managers, one of the challenges is that their return streams can be, you know, Out of favor or significantly low correlation or uncorrelated to what's happening in the market, especially when the market is on a tear. And what I've heard from allocators is like, that's really challenging because the client gets their statement.
[00:29:20] Stacy Havener: I'm holding a piece of paper in my hand for those of you who can't see this video. And they start pointing at all the line items that are out of whack. How do you handle that?
[00:29:28] Paul Bodnar: It's a great question and I think hopefully long before you got to that point. And what I mean by that is, you know, we talked a little bit, you know, a second ago where particularly in a good quarter and a good period of time, the client may be like, yeah, you know, investments, hey, it's going great.
[00:29:43] Paul Bodnar: We're not going to talk about it. There is a degree of education you have to do, which is what you're saying. The easy one is lately it's been, you know, the S and P 500, the magnificent seven, right. And the rest of the market just not doing anything. But, you know, you could say, Hey, it's. Things are cyclical, right?
[00:29:59] Paul Bodnar: There was, I [00:30:00] remember we were meeting with someone on the institutional side that just kept beating up on this value manager that was really good, had good numbers versus the value universe, delivered performance, but value was just really out of favor, right? And they're just looking at the other growth side and wanting to feed that.
[00:30:14] Paul Bodnar: And then lo and behold, right? Like it was balanced and both of them had a role to play. And we kind of talk about it. It's like, yeah, well, problem is, is we get rid of them now because value's not working. And then we have to get the timing right. I'm wanting to add that back. So right, you know, I think a lot of it starts with educating the client up to that point.
[00:30:30] Paul Bodnar: You know, you don't want to be in a spot where they don't understand that the portfolio is designed to have different parts working well at different points in time. We've had a story where, you know, we had a value manager that ended up doing really well and has really outperformed in recent years and really helped.
[00:30:47] Paul Bodnar: The portfolios in 2022, when tech and growth, you know, nosedive, they absolutely crushed it. But we had someone constantly and on the institutional side asking like, Hey, why do I own this? Why do I own this? And it wasn't a huge position, but it was there for a [00:31:00] reason because they were a little bit heavier on the other side and growth.
[00:31:03] Paul Bodnar: And we have to understand that these things. Interact. The other component I would add is, you know, when you're in a specialist manager and life science is a space that we like to invest in, it's cyclical. Like there's some going to be some years that are rough, right? But overall, we think that long term trends are there, that development of new therapeutics and around the biotech life science space, you know, will continue to accelerate with Lower cost mapping of the genome has really helped that space, right?
[00:31:29] Paul Bodnar: But yeah, there's some rough periods. So you kind of have to say, hey, that these are going to happen. And then when it gets in there, it's, there's a great chart and data point out there. I think I saw from Marquette and we like to keep this in presentations of. When people fire managers and it shows the subsequent and there's been numerous versions of this, right?
[00:31:46] Paul Bodnar: It shows the subsequent like one three and five year performance and really what it shows is like people do it at the exact wrong time You know, there's another table out there that I think takes from like 2001 through 2010 of [00:32:00] the best mutual funds, you know, returns over this nine or 10 year period.
[00:32:04] Paul Bodnar: And then it takes the average investor's term within that same fund. And the average investor, like it's a double digit return. I think in terms of the overall performance or something like that, the average investor's negative in it. And it goes back to that. You've got to fight the behavioral side. So a lot of that is education leading up to that point.
[00:32:22] Paul Bodnar: Not right at that point. Now today, you know, the S and P 500 with. Being where it's at Magnificent 7, Magnificent 4, whatever you want to call
[00:32:30] Stacy Havener: it
[00:32:30] Paul Bodnar: at this point, we've really kind of pounded on, Hey, we've done really well on a relative basis. Like, you know, we can say, Hey, our large cap is doing better, but we're also diversified.
[00:32:39] Paul Bodnar: Like we can't, if you want to own just that, like you're so heavily focused and concentrated in a very small space, that's fine. But that's not a diversified approach. And if we step back and look at what we think is. The end of zero interest rates, reintroduction of costs of money. We think the next five or 10 years will be a little more volatile, you know, inflation will come back and that you need that diversification in a portfolio.
[00:32:59] Paul Bodnar: So [00:33:00] all of these things kind of point back to that kind of education story versus just reacting and trying to work with the client that way.
[00:33:07] Stacy Havener: It's hitting the elephant in the room. Right. Like, as soon as you can is so difficult, but so important because I can imagine if you're having conversations with clients.
[00:33:20] Stacy Havener: And you say to them, like, Hey, I just want to tell you right out of the gate, the way we build our portfolios, there is always going to be something that you point out and hate. There's always going to be something that's out of favor. There's always going to be something that you're like, why am I in this?
[00:33:36] Stacy Havener: And it's like, instead of being afraid of that conversation. To sort of say like this is going to happen and that's normal for you to feel that way And I probably feel that way too sometimes as the analyst but what we do, you know as the cio But we do it because that's the right way to build a portfolio and I just think the honesty around that conversation Is so refreshing and [00:34:00] probably for the client too because then they're like well you did tell me That there'd always be something that I'd want to, like, kick out, and I see it now.
[00:34:08] Stacy Havener: Simple. The human behavior component to all of this is so undervalued. Like, protecting, you know, clients from themselves, in the case that you're talking about. And even for the asset managers, like, they don't really think about the human components to buying, if you will. You know, they come in with the charts and it's like, look at this and look at this number and look at, but they're not thinking about, well, that's not actually how people buy.
[00:34:37] Stacy Havener: And I wonder, how do you think about that? Like when a manager's pitching you and pointing to charts and stats, like how do you get that back on track?
[00:34:48] Paul Bodnar: That can get intensely boring. Although being a former sell side analyst, like I could talk stocks like all day, like it's just kind of my nature just to dive in, but kind of relating these two conversations a little bit [00:35:00] to each other. You know, if you're talking to an asset manager, it's better to be upfront and out there about things that haven't worked and haven't gone well.
[00:35:06] Paul Bodnar: And really have a crisp answer and don't make people extract it. And that can be something of, Hey, this was a bad year. It's really nice just to have that people are going to ask about it, but it's easier if you kind of address that out of the gate or there's some noise in the story, right? Like some of the best investments we've had are there's noise, like there was something funny, a partner left.
[00:35:25] Paul Bodnar: You're like, ah, do I really want to go through all this and figure this out? But you know, the more upfront and crisper everybody is about it, the oftentimes easier it is. And. It generally for us isn't a deal breaker. What is is like when you slowly start to peel and ask questions and you're like, well, I keep finding these like new layers of hair.
[00:35:42] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:35:43] Paul Bodnar: Just get it all out there, you know, be upfront and, uh, we can kind of manage through that.
[00:35:47] Stacy Havener: I think that's great. I love the noise in the story. It's a great way for people to be okay. I don't know what word I want to use. It's not mistakes. It's just like the [00:36:00] imperfect parts of the story that you want to sort of like airbrush out and you sort of hope no one actually wants to get into and you're saying just don't do that because actually it's worse when you're trying to hide it.
[00:36:11] Stacy Havener: Let's just talk about it again. Elephant in the room. Just hit it head on. And it's scary to be the one that has to have that conversation. But I think in the end, it's better for everyone.
[00:36:20] Paul Bodnar: Yeah, I mean we went through a strategy on that not so long ago.
[00:36:23] Stacy Havener: Yeah
[00:36:24] Paul Bodnar: that you started asking questions And it completely killed us doing anything when it was essentially that the pms had changed and then you're like, is this guy?
[00:36:33] Paul Bodnar: well, he's actually leaving for the and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like You know, you probably should have talked about this up front that, Hey, it's the same analyst team. Yeah. It's new PM, like, you know, work strategy and everything still works the same, but here's a little bit of noise. But as you kept asking questions and you kept finding more hair on that, you're like, yeah, like this is kind of over.
[00:36:51] Stacy Havener: Yeah, it can kill it.
[00:36:53] Paul Bodnar: And I think it's done. Okay. Like actually just having followed it, but that kind of killed it for us, that lack of kind of disclosure.[00:37:00]
[00:37:02] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I think for everyone who's listening, who's an asset manager, you got to hear that. You got to hear that loud and clear and let that sink in. That it's okay to talk about the imperfect parts. Paul Sharon, like no one expects you to be perfect. And in a people business, nothing like people have stuff that happens in their lives and stuff happens in a business and The more forthcoming you can be and bring the real talk around it, the better it is for everybody.
[00:37:30] Stacy Havener: Can we go back to my numbers example, like when someone's numbing you with numbers? Oh yeah. A, does that still happen? Or have managers like stopped doing that? And B, how do you get them back?
[00:37:44] Paul Bodnar: It's a good question. You know, we don't tend to get a ton of it. Like every so often, you know, does it a fair amount is like a placement agent that wants to beat you into like, you have to meet with them.
[00:37:53] Paul Bodnar: And here's why, right? Like, they're like, Oh, here's the numbers and their numbers are awesome. And you need to see them. And that can get a little bit [00:38:00] irritating, particularly you see it in private markets, but it'd be interested to see if what things like, if you're sitting at, you know, one of the large consulting firms or something like that, that's yeah.
[00:38:08] Paul Bodnar: Cause it does have to become a little bit number driven, like just as a filter. But yeah, you know, we don't honestly, uh, on that, I would say no one tends to really, you know, come in with that. I mean, there's a degree of it, right? When you get, you know, a new doc or you're talking to somebody that you're kind of doing the quick eye test, but you always have to have it in context, right?
[00:38:25] Paul Bodnar: There's certain spaces where that's more or less important.
[00:38:28] Stacy Havener: Yeah,
[00:38:29] Paul Bodnar: where it's a lot of, hey, what's gonna happen going forward? Is this the right space? Is this the right opportunity set? And you can look at the private side, right? If we went and looked at data centers or self storage and looked backwards, there's a good article in the New York Times day about self storage and some hair now in that space.
[00:38:44] Paul Bodnar: If you just look backwards, like it'd look great, but you know, you got to think about skating to where the puck's going, not where it was. And I think that's true on the investment side, right? So that tends to be a little bit more on how we think about it and really our approach. You know, I don't know that that's true across the advisory RA [00:39:00] world.
[00:39:00] Paul Bodnar: I think a lot of, there are still people that are a little bit attached to just the numbers of, Hey, yeah, this hasn't been a great space. Why should I do it now? Like, you know, well, maybe it's interesting now.
[00:39:09] Stacy Havener: Yeah, exactly. That's the whole point of investing by low sell high. Like you're missing it.
[00:39:15] Paul Bodnar: We haven't been big pushing into energy, right?
[00:39:17] Paul Bodnar: But like you would have said that on energy up through 2021 and most people probably don't remember, but since the start of the 21 energies by far the best performing sector in public markets, like buy a landslide, right? And everyone's like, I don't do energy. I'm not interested. Why would I ever want to look at that?
[00:39:32] Paul Bodnar: Well, everyone kept saying that and then it got interesting,
[00:39:35] Stacy Havener: right?
[00:39:35] Paul Bodnar: So you kind of got to think that way.
[00:39:37] Stacy Havener: Yeah, that sort of contrarian, not to just be contrarian, but just to be open minded about where the opportunities are. They're not going to be where everybody else is by definition. I'm curious how you run a meeting.
[00:39:49] Stacy Havener: So now I'm really like, I'm really thinking about this. So when you do a meeting with a manager. Do they come in with their like 40 page slide deck and they say paul, thank you [00:40:00] so much for your time I'd like to start on page one Or do you just dead that right out of the gate?
[00:40:07] Paul Bodnar: We don't yeah Cindy and my my co worker are like we don't function that way.
[00:40:12] Paul Bodnar: I've got too much like all over the place You're like, okay, let's dive into this I always like to give a quick heads up too of like especially if we know the space like it just All this part and we've been doing a lot of work in health care lately. You want to just sell me on like health care. Get rid of all that.
[00:40:26] Stacy Havener: Right.
[00:40:27] Paul Bodnar: And then here's a couple things that we really want to spend some time on and dive into. You know, and if it's a first meeting, a lot of personal background, how'd you get here?
[00:40:33] Stacy Havener: Yeah.
[00:40:34] Paul Bodnar: A lot of, you know, we're not afraid of fun ones or doing things early. We're not afraid to be early. You know, sometimes.
[00:40:40] Paul Bodnar: From an economic standpoint to that, they can make sense, but we do need to understand like why you make sense for this. And while you may not have a track record here, you know, you should have something before that we can kind of something to underwrite. So a lot of it really goes into understanding that understanding the business, a big thing for us and particularly in the public [00:41:00] side.
[00:41:00] Paul Bodnar: Want to spend time on how everyone gets paid, you know, incentives. Like I'm a big, big believer in people do what they're incentivized to do. So if you've got a PM and they're incentivized on how many new assets they add, not performance, like it may play a role cause I get it. It's a business too, but that's something that we think about, right?
[00:41:18] Paul Bodnar: Is it, are you incentivized? On a quarter or is it multi year performance levels? Like things again, more taxable investors. So multi year is really important to us, you know, having a great year, you know, less so
[00:41:30] Stacy Havener: fascinating addition on the qualitative side to talk about the incentives. And I think like the asset raising versus performance makes sense.
[00:41:40] Stacy Havener: The multi year really interesting. Are managers forthcoming when you ask those questions?
[00:41:46] Paul Bodnar: Yeah, I don't think we've ever really very, very, it's like, how are you paid as p. m. How is your analyst team paid? How are they compensated? Are they only compensated if they get an idea in or don't get it in? You start getting, there's all kinds of different methodologies [00:42:00] and each fund's complex is different, right?
[00:42:01] Paul Bodnar: They all structure their teams differently. So you kind of just have to think of, are they incentivizing the right behavior? You know, one example would be, Hey, if you've got a couple of PMs or if you were in a, Private strategy doesn't matter where you're really only getting paid on your ideas. Then you kind of get this weird dynamic where I'm trying to promote all my stuff, kill all your stuff, and we're not really trying to get to the best place for each other, right?
[00:42:23] Paul Bodnar: But there's other times when you can say, yeah, I tend not to like that, but in this situation it does work. So each one is unique. But I think it's, it's really important to spend some time around that understanding on a, in a private vehicle. Like how's the carry broke down? Who owns it? Who owns the GP?
[00:42:38] Paul Bodnar: What's the profitability of the business? Are they making a ton of money on the management fee? And then how's the carry broken down? Is it good enough where the guy's doing the work and girls still incentivized to stick around? And to help grow the business. So all of those things are factors. And I think we probably spend more time than most.
[00:42:56] Paul Bodnar: I think on that space that that others don't spend time on it. And then it's [00:43:00] going back to what we said before. It's opportunity said how much money you're raising getting the right team is really important, but it's also really important to be in the right space where you can actually generate out performance.
[00:43:08] Stacy Havener: It's so true. It's like, what do they say? Well, this is more of a wealth management phrase. It's not just asset allocation. It's asset location, like that location on the, what are you exposed to? And what are the drivers? It's like, even your point with energy, you know, we worked with an energy manager.
[00:43:25] Stacy Havener: They're fantastic. I mean, they are thought leaders. They do every employee own founder led all the things, you know, we're just getting kicked in the teeth. For years and it's like we get it they get it They were like we just have to stay alive until we get the tailwinds again now certainly some Areas of the market have more cyclicality to them to your earlier point.
[00:43:49] Paul Bodnar: Yeah Well, you saw that with small cap value in like late 90s late 90s They all died and then there was only a couple left and then they went on like a terror right from like oh one and beyond So that's [00:44:00] happened in a lot of spaces
[00:44:01] Stacy Havener: Yeah. And for you with taxable investors, as you said, you have to think about where am I putting certain, certain vehicles, certain strategies, what is the tax implication of that?
[00:44:13] Stacy Havener: And it would behoove managers to think about that too. Like if you're running a super high turnover strategy and you're talking to somebody with mostly taxable investors, That might not work.
[00:44:26] Paul Bodnar: Not a great fit.
[00:44:26] Stacy Havener: Not a great fit. Or like, how are you managing your tax exposure? Are you managing your tax exposure with any kind of intention?
[00:44:34] Stacy Havener: Just things that people don't necessarily think about. It's not just the, what number did you put up? Yeah. Love this Paul. It's a masterclass and how to think differently about your meetings and how to think differently about what your clients, the allocators are actually trying to solve.
[00:44:51] Paul Bodnar: Yeah, I mean that's kind of, I would say that's one thing that we tend not to think like everybody else that's in our space that we know.
[00:44:57] Stacy Havener: Yeah. I would agree with you. It's [00:45:00] refreshing. Let's do a little MyVersionApproves questionnaire. Is it questions to just get to know you a bit more?
[00:45:08] Paul Bodnar: I always wanted to be on the Actors Studio, so this is like a, you know. I want to be, yeah, good old James Lipton. I used to watch that all the time.
[00:45:15] Stacy Havener: I see. This is really filling up my cup right now, Paul, because I used to say this is my version of inside the actor studio, which of course was based on Bruce questionnaire.
[00:45:26] Stacy Havener: And then what's happening is nobody knew it. And then I had to like explain and I'm like, it doesn't work. Just forget it. Forget it. If you don't know, this kind of goes back to our
[00:45:35] Paul Bodnar: diversity of thought, right? We really believe in being like well rounded people on our investment team, you know, yeah.
[00:45:40] Stacy Havener: Well, okay, so we're going I love
[00:45:42] Paul Bodnar: philosophy class too.
[00:45:43] Stacy Havener: There you go. We're going inside the cio studio right now Okay, first question What book inspires you?
[00:45:51] Paul Bodnar: Recently, I read a biography of martin luther king and there's a million of them, but it was called king a life Marshall fredy and [00:46:00] the interesting thing was it it really humanizes him versus kind of this superhero It kind of gets into some of the challenges of getting shot at, I might die, which was something that he was acutely aware of that he expected to die.
[00:46:15] Stacy Havener: And
[00:46:15] Paul Bodnar: it really kind of gives you a different viewpoint. So I found that, yeah, I thought that was quite good. And there's others, but that was kind of the most recent that came to mind. Yeah.
[00:46:25] Stacy Havener: That's great. It's my favorite when people talk about books that are not, like, market related, even though those are great, too.
[00:46:31] Stacy Havener: But I just like, to your point, the diversity of thought. So that's awesome. Okay, switching from books to places, what place inspires you? What's your happy place?
[00:46:41] Paul Bodnar: I'm going to go with the Cirque at Snowbird skiing, like right there on the Cirque
[00:46:47] Stacy Havener: overlooking
[00:46:48] Paul Bodnar: like that's kind of my kind of both my wife and I is like favorite spot.
[00:46:52] Paul Bodnar: Absolutely love it there. Love to ski it. Love everything about it.
[00:46:55] Stacy Havener: That's great. I can imagine. I've never been there, but I know with for [00:47:00] people who like skiing, there's something about that being outside in nature and the quiet. Love it. Isn't there, like, this different quiet and peace when you're out there that you just can't replicate?
[00:47:12] Paul Bodnar: Yeah, I get lost in a chute by yourself in the woods on skis. Like, it's quiet and
[00:47:18] Stacy Havener: yeah,
[00:47:19] Paul Bodnar: sometimes a little, it's a little bit edgy and scary. I like that. I like living in both. Like, yeah, I could die. Like, that's kind of the, yeah, makes you feel good. Keeps you alive.
[00:47:28] Stacy Havener: Did Household's book, Same as Ever?
[00:47:31] Paul Bodnar: No.
[00:47:32] Stacy Havener: Okay.
[00:47:32] Stacy Havener: Well, there's a chapter in the beginning where he talks about skiing and kind of what you just said. So I recommend. Okay. Next. What is okay. Well, let me set the stage. You're going to give a presentation in a stadium. You're taking the stage 1000 of CM Wealth's most adoring true fans. What song do they play?
[00:47:51] Stacy Havener: What's your hype song as you take the stage? What's your walkout anthem?
[00:47:54] Paul Bodnar: That's an interesting context. One of the songs I would think of that throws that one out [00:48:00] probably, uh, Here Comes Your Man by the Pixies might be interesting. Lou Reed's Vicious would be another good one.
[00:48:07] Stacy Havener: So good.
[00:48:08] Paul Bodnar: Maybe Fugazi Waiting Room just because I love that bass line.
[00:48:11] Paul Bodnar: That's kind of such a great build up. But, uh.
[00:48:14] Stacy Havener: There's something to the bass line for a walkout anthem. Because, you know, you need that, like, yeah. Oh my gosh, great answers, Paul. Okay, what profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
[00:48:26] Paul Bodnar: Something around music or filmmaking. So probably musician. I would think it would feel like a huge win.
[00:48:33] Paul Bodnar: Even if you had like a, you know what, like 3000 people or a thousand people show up to my shows for five years and they really liked what I did. Like, that's a pretty good, even if it's just small, like, yeah, it's a pretty good outcome. Like you really had some did something that other people really enjoyed.
[00:48:46] Paul Bodnar: So it'd probably be creating something like that.
[00:48:48] Stacy Havener: Ah, love it. Okay. Flip side. What profession would you not like to do?
[00:48:54] Paul Bodnar: This will be surprising because it's some people think it's very related accountant.
[00:48:58] Stacy Havener: [00:49:00] Yeah, you're too much of a, you know, you strike me as a people person, which is interesting because you think CIO and you think like numbers and spreadsheets.
[00:49:10] Stacy Havener: Yeah, I could see you hating that, like just being at a screen and crunching data all day long. Some of it,
[00:49:17] Paul Bodnar: it's being in a screen, but it's also feeling like, and maybe, you know, my perception, there's a whole bunch of jobs like that. Right. We're like, I always want to be the one that can, like, help drive the boss or make a decision or do things where, like, oftentimes, like, lawyers and accountants are just kind of fulfilling someone else's, like, thing that they're doing.
[00:49:33] Paul Bodnar: Yeah. And that kind of bothers me.
[00:49:36] Stacy Havener: Great. Added perspective there was very interesting. Okay. Last question. What do you want people to say about you after you've retired or left the industry?
[00:49:48] Paul Bodnar: No, uh, , not that , it'll be a real loss. He was really somebody that, that helped thought about things differently and really helped drive [00:50:00] and grow his organization in a significant way that, you know, has a bit of a, a lasting impression.
[00:50:05] Paul Bodnar: I think it would be, you know, really leaving people with results of really helping build something Mm-Hmm, and build, you know, an approach that's a little bit different.
[00:50:11] Stacy Havener: You know, there's that quote, I think it's a Seth Godin quote where he says. Be so good. They'd miss you if you were gone. And I love that idea that, you know, you're doing something that means something.
[00:50:25] Stacy Havener: It was kind of like what you said about the music piece that, you know, if you were a musician and you had 1000 people who showed up and really vibed as true fans, like that's being memorable. Meaning something. I love that. And I think you're doing it. You can't do it unless you're willing to be different, unless you're brave enough to be different.
[00:50:45] Stacy Havener: And I, I high five to you and your whole team for the courage around that. Thank you, Paul. Yes, this has been awesome.
[00:50:53] Paul Bodnar: Great. Well, thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Appreciate the feedback. There's a lot of fun. Thanks, Stacy.
[00:50:58] Stacy Havener: Okay. This podcast [00:51:00] is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.
[00:51:05] Stacy Havener: The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products, or to adopt any investment strategy. Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance. All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm.
[00:51:24] Stacy Havener: Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by Stacey Havener or Havener Capital Partners.