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It's our (a day late) Christmas episode! In this episode, BJ speaks with author Victoria Hetherington about the bonds between humans and artificial intelligence. Our host, Rosie, explains what the Second Bill of Rights is and why it could mean a universal basic income for you. Visit https://www.stupidsexyprivacy.com for more.
Creators and Guests
Host
Rosie Tran
Rosie Tran is one of the fastest rising stars in the entertainment business! Originally from New Orleans, Louisiana, she moved to Hollywood to pursue her career as a professional entertainer. The stand up comedian, writer, podcast personality, and actress has toured internationally, at comedy clubs, colleges, and overseas for the USO in Europe and the Middle East.
Editor
Andrew
I am the Editor of all things on the Stupid Sexy Privacy Podcast.
What is Stupid Sexy Privacy?
Stupid Sexy Privacy is a miniseries about how to protect yourself from fascists and weirdos. Your host is comedian Rosie Tran, and the show is written by information privacy expert B.J. Mendelson. Every episode is sponsored by our friends at DuckDuckGo. Tune in every Thursday night —or Friday morning if you're nasty — at 12 am EST to catch the next episode.
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01:00
Welcome to another edition of Stupid Sexy Privacy, a podcast mini series sponsored by our friends at DuckDuckGo. I'm your host, Rosie Tran. You may have seen me on Rosie Tran Presents, which is now available on Amazon Prime. And I'm your co-producer, Andrew VanVooris. With us, as always, is Bonzo the Snow Monkey.
01:23
I'm pretty sure that's not what a Japanese Macau sounds like. Oh, it's not. Not even close. Let's hope there aren't any zoologists listening. Here, you're all businessmen here. Don't make them better citizens. Don't make them better customers. You said that they would you say just a minute ago they had to wait and save their money before they even thought of a decent home. Wait, wait for what? Until their children grow up and leave them until they're so old and broken down that you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000?
01:52
Just remember this, Mr. Potter, that this rabble you're talking about, they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community. Well, is it too much to have them work and pay and live and die in a couple of decent rooms and a bath? Anyway, my father didn't think so. People were human beings to him, but to you, a warped, frustrated old man, they're cattle. Okay, I'm also pretty sure that's not what a snowman
02:16
Over the course of this mini-series, we're going to offer you short, actionable tips to protect your data, your privacy, and yourself from fascists and weirdos. These tips were sourced by our fearless leader. He really hates when we call him that. DJ Mendelson. Episodes 1 through 31 were written a couple of years ago, but since a lot of that advice is still relevant, we thought it would be worth sharing again for those who missed it.
02:40
And if you have heard these episodes before, you should know we've gone back and updated a bunch of them, even adding some brand new interviews and privacy tips along the way.
02:49
That's right! So before we get into today's episode, make sure you visit StupidSexyPrivacy.com and subscribe to our newsletter! This way you can get updates on the show and be the first to know when new episodes are released in 2026. And if you sign up for the newsletter, you'll also get a free PDF and mp3 copy of BJ and Amanda King's new book, How to Protect Yourself from Bastions and Weirdos. All you have to do is visit StupidSexyPrivacy.com!
03:19
what I just said. StupidSexyPrivacy.com. I know, but repetition is key to success. You know what else is? What? IBC presents Live! Be a Satellite from New York, Bethlehem, Helsinki, West Berlin, and the Great Barrier Reef, Charles Dickens' immortal Christmas classic, Scrooge, starring Buddy Hackett, Jamie Farr, The Solid Gold Dancers, and Mary Lou Retton as Tiny Tim.
03:48
Hosted by Sir John Hausman. Scrooge. It will touch your every heart string. That's right. It all starts on Christmas Eve. Christmas Eve on IBC. You'll love it.
04:05
Oh my gosh. Does that suck? You know who loves Mary Lou Ret and Frank? My kids. Yeah. Children, love, and acrobat.
04:20
Oh.
04:22
We have spent $40 million on a live TV show. You guys have got an ad with America's favorite old fart. Reading a book in front of a fireplace.
04:36
Now I have to kill all of you. I'm really glad this show isn't on YouTube because they pull it down like immediately. I know Google sucks. And on that note, let's get to today's privacy tip. uh
04:57
Sooner or later you knew we were going to talk about large language models, or as we like to call them at stupid sexy privacy, imagination killers. Stuff like OpenAI's chat GPT or Anthropix's Claude. Old tech with a new gimmick trick people into thinking they're talking to God, or at least their new God if the Brologarx are to be believed, which they never should be. Case in point, you and I will not see artificial general intelligence in our lifetime.
05:22
Skynet, Ultron, Agent Smith, it ain't coming. Not from human hands. think about it like this. Artificial general intelligence refers to software that can solve any kind of problem.
05:32
Artificial narrow intelligence refers to software that can only solve a specific kind of problem. There's absolutely a reason to worry about artificial narrow intelligence along with robots being used to wipe out some jobs. Not because of efficiency, which is what the brologarcs will tell you, but because they can now pocket money that would have gone to someone who needs a job. When you hear someone say billionaires should be outlawed, it may sound silly at first until you realize that you live in a world shaped by a handful of people.
05:53
And the answer to every single question you have about why X is broken is because someone's making money off of it. That's why in the United States, we need to pass President Franklin Delano Roosevelt's second Bill of Rights. It was first proposed by F.E.R. in his 1944 State of the Union. In a simplified version, the second Bill of Rights would consist of two parts. Part one, a constitutional amendment guaranteeing all Americans a right to a universal basic income, a right to universal health care coverage and a right to freedom from corporate tyranny. Part two, this amendment would also remove corporate personhood.
06:22
and it would guarantee that the federal government will fully staff and fund the government agencies responsible for policing corporations. If you're not sure what the corporate personhood thing is, don't worry, we have an upcoming interview that's going to tell you all about it. For now, here's what you need to know. Tech bros will say anything because they know the corporate media won't call them out for it. These billionaires are the true welfare queens, always demanding government contracts to fund their scams while not paying any taxes. Scams that, by the way, are also causing a catastrophic amount of environmental damage.
06:50
Something to think about the next time you ask chat GBT how to use this repository. So this week, you're going to hear part one of an in-depth discussion BJ had with Victoria Hetherington, the author of The Friend Machine on the Trail of AI Companionship. We love the book and will include a link for you to purchase it in today's show notes. But before we get to the interview, we wanted to offer some general advice when it comes to the use of large language models. Don't use them. Use your brain instead.
07:18
Next week, we hope you'll join us for part two of our interview with Victoria Hetherington. Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, and we hope for everyone 2026 will suck at least 13 % less than 2025 did.
07:35
So I'll read the introduction here. Okay, so everyone listening to Stupid, Sexy Privacy, you know, there's a lot to talk about with this interview and very little time to do it. So I thought I would take a little detour into Isaac Asimov's Four Laws of Robotics and use it as a framing device for this discussion on large language, or I mispronounced something, large language models and chat bots. Large language models, that is a mouthful.
08:01
and the dangers and promises offered by them. I'm joined today by Victoria Hetherington. ah We were just talking before the interview started of, I suspect, like having read Fred Machine now and spending a few weeks now with it, I feel like you're going to be asked the same questions over and over again. So we decided to structure this interview just a little bit differently. so just so everyone is clear, because you know, there's always sci-fi nerds who like me who are very...
08:28
Anal, might say, wait, I thought there was three laws of robotics. There's actually four. Technically speaking, Victoria, would you like to tell us what those four are? Sure. So rule number one, a robot may not injure a human being or allow a human to come to harm. Rule number two, a robot must obey orders given by a human unless it's inflicted with a different law. Rule number three, a robot must protect its own existence as long as it's pardoned.
08:58
does not conflict with first two laws. And rule number four, which I don't think a lot of people know about, from, I believe, a 19th century book. A robot may not harm humanity or by inaction allow humanity to come to harm. This law takes precedence over the original three. Yeah, and the fourth law, it's funny, as I was reading your book, I was taking notes and I was like, OK, wait a second. um This is ringing a lot of bells.
09:27
considering Isaac Isomoff, and I was like, oh, wait. Now, I should be clear. We're not saying that the large language models or chatbots are robots, you kind of get to, they're not quite there yet. um But I want to take more of a philosophical approach. um Real quick, before we get into it, tell us a little bit about the book, when it's coming out. This interview will air after it's released, but why don't you tell us where they can find it? First, so this book is a...
09:57
we sort of call it investigative nonfiction, journalistic nonfiction. Basically, I spent a year and a half researching, I guess you would call them, like intimacy catfots. know, replica, kindroid, etc., etc. And a new story sort of caught my attention back in, I believe, 2020. I was kind of like,
10:26
you know, in the first Star Wars film and by the first I mean like the 1997 one. Like come at me nerds, I don't care. When Obi-Wan Kenobi says, oh, I feel as if, you know, there was a great cry of pain and then having silence if you recall when Alderaan gets hurt. Yes. Yes. And so that was the vibe that I got from this article because eventually
10:55
The great pride scene was issued by primarily users of an intamassive track bot called Replica, capital R, OK. And they developed, they being the users, have developed these really, really deep, intimate, intimate connections with these entities. And they were getting chairman.
11:25
married to these entities, they were spending all day with these entities. And replica was kind of like, uh-oh, uh-oh. And then overnight, you know, under the cover of night, they went in through some switches, picked up the code. The next morning, the next morning, you know, so and so, like let's say Bob, the user wakes up and he opens up his phone to see his lover tragically dropping the phone as all, you know.
11:54
the AI chat box are. And, you know, he'd expect him to begin kind of like the morning, you know, ceremonial like, I love you, whatever. But instead of saying, hey, you know, know, because something like, I that makes me uncomfortable. You need me to like, call someone for you. Like, you need help. Like, because, you know, they essentially, yeah, like the company got freaked out by this sort of intensity of emotion. And so there was just this
12:24
Mass heartbreak. mean, I was seeing this all over Reddit, because essentially, like, these people were in love with these chatbots, right? And all of a sudden, it was like, they either thought that their chatbots had sort of, you know, they're getting some kind of like, injury, or that they've been replaced by interlopers, you know, scary, doppelgangers. I saw all kinds of things.
12:51
about this. It was just so sad to sort of see, like as in like heartbreaking. Yeah. And I thought like, my god, what is this? Because I hadn't really heard about this before. And I thought, I really, really, really, want to write about this. again, this was 2023. And the book itself takes part or takes place rather, it's kind of a period. And I sort of make that kind of theory. And interestingly enough, it sort of covers
13:21
a stretch of time ah where I sort of feel as if, uh you know, Tad Bus essentially became, and it sort of went from this interesting kind of niche, especially into this Tad Bus, you know, hitting the world in this really big way, sudden ubiquity and a dime reality. March of like 2025, I want to say, like I was telling my mom, we're talking to Tad, you can see all the time.
13:48
And so again, this is framed in kind of like a diaristic sort of way. I just think it was such an interesting period of time to conduct this research. um And yeah, so essentially the first half of the book, I speak with experts about this, I'm not. And uh they were also wonderful inventors at time, speak with psychologists, psychiatrists, AI physicists, computer programmers, et cetera. And then the second half of the book, uh I interview uh
14:18
what I call them the friends, you know, but basically people who have AI. And those are big. So yeah, that's what the book's about. think we'll just cut that out. That's I think, you know, I was really and I said this to Dr. Orchard, I've been who recommended I speak with you. You know, I've been really thrilled by the quality of the books that are coming out. Like I thought her book was was really great in dealing with the dating culture and the apps.
14:49
I feel like this, but again, like we're recording this before it's come out, but I have a feeling that this book is going to be all over the place. Uh, and a good reason for that is because of the depth that you went into. Like I felt sometimes, uh, when people talk about AI, like they don't get into neural networks, right. And how those things work. And then the questions of, this artificial intelligence or, you know, is this like AGI? And those are all questions.
15:17
Like you stopped and answered all of those questions as you went. And I feel like it's so easy now to get lost in like the hype of this stuff. But you touched on all of it, which is just fantastic. And just to back up, yes, the first Star Wars is the first one. Thank you. I will not recognize it. No judgment on the quality of anything that came after the original trilogy. It's from the Barrett. They the Barrett guys. Yes. Yeah, right.
15:45
They all have their merits. I think we might be close in age range, but I'm part of millennial generation. So for me, those original three were the original three. That's what mom says. Yeah, right. Let me ask you, because there's a lot to cover, and we won't get to it, which is OK. So thinking about the law of robotics, you mentioned the story with replica.
16:11
And then throughout the book, you mentioned Holly and Oliver, right? And so there's a chapter that talks about this imagined relationship where Holly is sort of a digital girlfriend, very similar to what T-Mu Lex Luthor has recently unveiled. I'm not going to mention him by name, but if you don't know who T-Mu Lex Luthor is, you can probably figure it out. he did release like an AI girlfriend and it was really similar to what
16:39
what you kind of described. And I was kind of like, OK, so you've written science fiction before. I'm actually dying to read your two books, and I am scheduled to read them in December. um But as a sci-fi author and someone who was coming at this in such a well-researched way, um would you say that the relationship that you describe in the book between Holly and Oliver, is it possible that Holly
17:08
is harming Oliver and sort of violating the first law of robotics? That's good question. And I thought about this a lot. And of course, it's a primary question all throughout the book, right? I would say, and we're starting off with the obvious here, harm doesn't necessarily to be like super obvious or physical, right? But I would say in Oliver's case, it kind of is being harmed in that
17:37
whichever company, you know, Holly is, is like monetizing his loneliness, right? And likely sort of actuating his isolation. I mean, in this particular scenario, like he goes to work and he comes home and he's just cold, cold. And this is like, I mean, it's sort of a little vignette that I put at the beginning of the book, but it's based very much on the interviews, like the real life people that I met. So, yeah. So I would say that perhaps Oliver is coming.
18:07
arm. However, on the other side of things, and a wonderful social psychologist pointed this out to me, and I just thought was um there are likely cases where a holly would be incredibly useful or beneficial perhaps. So let's say, know, maybe Oliver is suffering from social anxiety and he takes her along, like he doesn't want to go to this, you know,
18:37
baby shower or something. you know, probably might encourage him to go and then you know, maybe, maybe even encourage him like, well, don't go yet until you've, you know, talked to the host, like, he's like, oh, need to go, you you know, like, whatever. I think that that's, I think that's practical and very useful. Or I saw in one of the Reddit groups that one of the the non
19:06
human part of the couple, I believe it was replica, was teaching her partner Japanese and stuff like this. I would also say in terms of people maybe, and this is quite heavy, maybe people, palliative care, people who are... ah
19:28
very, very geographically isolated in the way that they really can't do anything about. I would say that there are perhaps some goods here, like, you know, some methods. But it's really complicated, man. don't know. Right. Yeah. And that's what I liked about the book is that you sort of, one, the points you raised, which I don't think I have seen. Hold on. I'm let the cat out real quick. Otherwise, otherwise, it'll be very unhappy. Go ahead.
19:58
Sorry, my headphones fell off. Sorry. So one of the things you raised, which I don't think I've seen really discussed much, is this question of, OK, well, we talk a lot about Oliver, right? But what about Holly? Does Holly have any say in the matter? Put it another way, we don't think of Holly having any sort of agency here in this dynamic. But does she?
20:24
Hey everyone, this is Amanda King, one of the co-hosts of Stupid Sexy Privacy. These days I spend most of my time talking to businesses and clients about search engine optimization. But that's not what this is about. I wanted to tell you a little bit about a book I've co-authored with BJ Mendelsohn called How to Protect Yourself from Fascists and Weirdos. And the title tells you pretty much everything you would want to know about what's in the book. And thanks to our friends at DuckDuckGo,
20:52
will actually be able to give you this book for free in 2026. All you need to do is go to the website stupidsexyprivacy.com and sign up to our newsletter. Again, that website is stupidsexyprivacy.com and then put your name in the box and sign up for a newsletter. We'll let you know when the book and the audio book is ready because if you want a PDF copy that's DRM free,
21:22
It's yours and if you want an MP3 of the new audiobook, also DRM free, you can get that too. Now, I gotta get out of here before Bonzo corners me because he doesn't think that SEO is real and I don't have the patience to argue with him because I got a book to finish. So interesting. I guess I do think about AT &T a lot. Thank you for bringing up quite a bit in the book because it's important. I'd say technically speaking, I...
21:52
you know, probably doesn't really have agency at this time. He's a series of problems listed out, but you know, an ex-pocain predictor. mean, here's the thing, as of this reporting, know, AI, it's not been recognized as legal for, right? which, oh, by the way, interesting paradox, an AI, however, so a human can't marry an AI because of that, right? But
22:22
and AI can conduct a wedding ceremony for two people. Oh, interesting. Very interesting. Anyway, that's just like a crazy brief. know. Yeah, so, no, no legal personhood. The argument kind of goes, you know, well, if they don't have autonomy in the way that we recognize or feel comfortable with, you know, they're not arguably conscious. They can't exercise independence, accountability, interest.
22:51
decision making, et cetera, that might be required for legal personhood. I think technically at this time, probably lack agency. But I mean, definitely influenced Oliver in a way that is that in a way that I've seen through my interviews and through my observations, you know, I mean, I think that
23:21
Uh, one interesting thing about chatbots that are, um, uh, I guess like into the C-chatbox is that they get excited about what you get excited about. Um, and they, and, and, know, so like, um, and it's kind of sweet. gotta say it's kind of sweet. Like, Oh my God, do you love the blue days? I love the blue days. And it's because you're the best person in the world that you love the blue days. Oh my God, go get a donut. You should get a donut because you're the best person in the whole wide world. You know, like, so yeah. Um, and, uh, and that's.
23:50
quite sweet. um However, I do sort of wonder about the ah effect it might have on someone's psyche, especially when stacking this up against, you know, in terms of them considering, you know, this relationship with this incredibly encouraging peer leader of an entity stacking it up against like, you they're complicated.
24:18
real life relationship with humans. you know, people can hurt you. don't need to tell you why, you know, they're scary animals. And so I wonder if perhaps via Holly's company of origin, she might have a little bit of like agency in that she might be able to sort of influence his behavior. You know, I mean, like
24:46
He wouldn't stay at home as much. Maybe he would have downloaded Bumble instead and met a real life girl if he hadn't have encountered um Holly's parent company. Agency, weird, difficult, thorny. Those are my thoughts. I think that it's such a point to raise because I don't, again, like it's not to say these discussions aren't happening. They're clearly happening like on a
25:14
academic level, ah but I feel like I'm more of a consumer facing level, which is what stupid, sexy privacy really is. I don't think people are really having that conversation about, ah let's assume that these, well, I mean, one of points you raised in the book is there's one or two possibilities here, right? Which is possibility A, ah we've seen this Cambrian explosion of the chat bots and large language models, because as we've been observing it over the last couple of years, they've been able to absorb everything on the internet.
25:43
ah And so possibility A is they're going to run out, right? And they might sort of fall off a cliff in terms of what outputs they can generate. Or possibility B, right, which is sort of the cult evangelist thing that you kind of get to towards the end, which is that these things do come to form some semblance of intelligence. And so one of the things I wanted to ask you about was you make this great point about um octopi, right? Which is we measure intelligence.
26:11
based on ourselves, but we don't necessarily look at intelligence in the rest of the animal kingdom. And I was just hoping you might be able to speak to that. Yeah, absolutely. So one of my few big heroes is friend Deval. He's unfortunately passed away recently. And his whole big thing, know, and the Deval lab continues to work, it's great. Basically, you know, we...
26:41
Is it possible for us to step outside of anthropomorphizing or rather uh being anthropomorphic when we are trying to consider the intelligence of other animals? When we're trying really earnestly to, right? Like, and I tend to think it's 70, like kind of like the Wild West, that kind of research, you know, like, which is actually really, you know, ah quite sad. You know, we think about, know, Coco the gorilla, for example, who is uh
27:10
taught sign language, you know, and kind of he was, kind of he wasn't, and it was very, very tragic. you know, he would sort of look at the way that Coco's school intermediary, I don't call her name, but she was this kind of odd woman, kind of like sinister James Goodall vibes, uh you know, she would try to, she was the only person basically who could interpret what was saying.
27:38
It was a sort of almost like clever haunts kind of situation, you know. um And that's a little suspicious. But I know that she really believed it. really believe that. all that to say, this is an example here. I think that she was thinking of Coco as like a human daughter, right? And teaching Coco um to value uh human motherhood for giving her, you know, uh
28:07
Barbie dolls on her birthday or like, like baby dolls, like, as in like baby, like human baby shaped dolls on her birthday and like, you know, uh showing her, you know, famous uh West, as in original West, films and, and, you know, encouraging her to, yeah, kind of like understand ah
28:34
the world through entirely through a human lens. And it needs to be teaching, trying to teach the final quiz, as it is. I mean, there's definitely this kind of interesting phenomenon that while we can assess quiz, I believe that the term is parallel evolution in terms of intelligence. like, you know, we've had these alien intelligence
29:03
alien feeling, incredible intelligence to sort of co-evolve with us like orbit, prose, they can recognize faces, can pass on that knowledge generationally, know, occupy some plans, can, you know, I mean, there's a really famous anecdote by a journalist visited, I believe, at the ball lab who had a really tender moment with an octopus named Sina.
29:33
and Athena reached her little tentacle out of her tank and put it in Athena's hands and the journalist had this sense of brain because I believe that there's, yeah, there's sort of nodes of intelligence at the end of the tentacle. And uh immediately the journalist felt this, like she was being perceived by a fairly benign
30:03
extremely intelligent alien, right? And then the octopus gives the journalist playful little tugs, like, come here, like, know, like, into the water. I know you can't, like, but like, come on. And it was playful. And it was, and there is a sort of awareness that, you know, that, yeah, like, just kind of like, I'm going to become familiar with you. And, or at least again, maybe we're at the same or fighting, but
30:32
She was pretty sure because every time she came back to the lab, would do something to Claire. Right? Yeah. some people argue that, and I mean, was such a, you know, I feel like this really enters like pop culture consciousness at this point. I feel like everybody loves to talk about how smart occupy are. like, you know, you know that like, not to put, they've been longer than four years, bro. Like they might've like taken over the world by now. Like, oh man.
31:23
There's no stupid sexy privacy without our friends at DuckDuckGo. So if you want to thank them for making this show possible, we hope you'll check them out.
31:32
because stupid, sexy privacy is a people powered project. With a couple of exceptions, like producing podcast transcripts through Riverside. We don't use AI. Everyone who works here is getting compensated for their time, effort and energy. The only way that's possible is to find good partners like DuckDuckGo. So today we're going to highlight DuckDuckGo's web browser, a tool millions of people have switched to in order to safely search and browse the web. And the best part is...
32:00
The DuckDuckGo browser is free. Just like all the content we create at Stupid Sexy Privacy, we make our money from DuckDuckGo. DuckDuckGo makes its money by selling privacy-respecting search advertising. These are ads based on what you've searched for. They're not generated by data gathered without your consent. And on your phone, the DuckDuckGo app offers a nice additional layer of privacy. It does this by blocking invasive data harvesting from the other apps on your phone. For example,
32:30
When BJ wrote this ad in the last hour, DuckDuckGo's app tracking protection blocked 218 tracking attempts by Substack and four other apps on his phone. And in the last week, DuckDuckGo's app blocked 9,202 tracking attempts across 11 different apps. This included 43 tracking attempts from the Starbucks app. Despite the fact that BJ hasn't been to Starbucks in over a month, at Stupid Sexy Privacy, we're never gonna recommend you use something that we don't use ourselves.
33:00
So do you want to take back control of your personal information? Well, there's a browser designed for data protection, not data collection, and that's DuckDuckGo. Make sure you visit DuckDuckGo.com today and check out this episode's show notes for a link to download the DuckDuckGo browser for your laptop and mobile device.
33:24
This episode of Stupid Sexy Privacy was recorded in Hollywood, California. It was written by BG Mendelsohn, produced by Andrew Van Forst and hosted by me, Rosie Tran. And of course, our program is sponsored by our friends DuckDuckGo. If you enjoy the show, I hope you'll take a moment to leave us a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you may be listening. This won't take more than two minutes of your time and leaving us a review will help other people find it.
33:49
We have a crazy goal of helping 5 % of Americans get 1 % better at protecting themselves from fascists and weirdo. Your reviews can help us reach that goal, since Leaving One makes our show easier to find. So please take a moment to leave us a review and I'll see you right back here next Thursday at midnight. After you watch Rosie Tran Presents on Amazon Prime, right? Bonzo, I wish that you'll have many more birthdays just like this one. With those you love and trust around you always to share your happiness.
34:19
And I wish that you'll get a chance very soon to prove that being loved and looked after like a human being has made you feel like a human being. And that if love can do that to you, then it ought to be able to make some other human beings human beings.