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Blueprint for Excellence: The Indovance Leadership Series brings out leadership success stories for the benefit of fellow leaders, to-be leaders, entrepreneurs, and the industry in general. Success isn’t an accident; it’s a purposeful dedication of time and effort towards a goal. Let’s listen, relate to, and learn what that looks like when put into practice.
[00:00:00] Benjamin Gardner: When I hear, "Oh, well, they're not ready to take that on," I'm just like, "Well, they'll never be ready unless you give them the opportunity." Well, and that's really the job of a leader, is to lead change. It's, and, and it's, it's hard. It's difficult. And it's okay if they fail, uh, sometimes. You know, as, as long as they don't continue with that pattern, uh, we'll be good.
[00:00:28] Tim Griffin: If you hire the right people, give them the right training, put them in the right seats, then over time great things are gonna happen. Hello, and welcome to Blueprint for Excellence, the Indovance Leadership Series. I'm your host, Sandesh Joshi, founder and CEO of Indovance Inc, a global engineering outsourcing services company.
[00:00:52] Sandesh Joshi: For more than 20 years, I've had the opportunity and the privilege to work with a lot of engineering and architectural [00:01:00] leaders. I have created this podcast series to bring out the success stories for the benefit of, uh, fellow leaders, to-be leaders, entrepreneurs, and the community at large. Success is not accidental.
It's purposeful dedication of time and effort. Let's listen, relate to, and learn from what it means to put that in practice. Today, my guests are Benjamin Gartner, CEO of Decker, and Tim Griffin, Executive Vice President of RMF Engineering. So if I may, um, ask each one of you to introduce yourself and give us a brief history of your career so far.
And, uh, if I may ask Benjamin, you to start first, please. Good afternoon, everyone. Uh, Benjamin Gartner. I'm currently the CEO of Decker. Um, I've had 25 years here at the [00:02:00] firm. I actually started as a intern in 2001, um, straight out of, uh, my master's program. Uh, it's my... I would say it's about my third career that I, that I started back then.
[00:02:16] Benjamin Gardner: Uh, a lot of it, a lot of my beginnings were in the construction field. Uh, in fact, uh, I don't know if you guys know what adobes are, but they're mud bricks, uh, that, uh, me and my father and my family made when I was eight years old. It started, so I was really early in the process. Uh, but my father was a great influence on me to, um, steer me towards architecture and design, uh, and building.
Really taught me how to build. Um, that's about me. Uh, we're... About Decker, we're a 200-plus architecture and engineering firm with three offices. [00:03:00] Um, when I started with the firm, we had about 70 people. Um, and have just continued to grow, uh, there. We, we do just about everything except for correctional facilities.
Uh, that was actually something that got me, um, to be interested in the firm when I heard one of the partners at that time mention that they didn't wanna do that type of architecture. Um, I said, "Well, they're, they're making a stand." Uh, which was-- I loved, and, um, we kept it. Um, as far as f- far as me, I have a lovely wife who's also has her master's in architecture but has never practiced architecture.
She actually went into the education field using architectural design processes, uh, to create some really interesting Montessori schools, uh, that she is the CEO of, uh, these days. About 230, uh, kids in that, [00:04:00] in that realm. So, um, we have-- I have a good, uh, sounding board, uh, when it comes to, um, dealing with issues.
Uh, today, uh, is some interesting time in the architecture, uh, and engineering fields, um, with everything, advances in technology, changes in work attitudes, uh, whatnot. So it's, uh, a constant learning experience even when I thought it was comfortable. Wonderful. Um, I mean, a couple of things that struck me. I think you just talked about your wife as a sounding board, and I had learned and heard from so many people, leaders ha- are lonely people.
[00:04:42] Sandesh Joshi: You know, it's great to have a sounding board, um, uh, as your partner. And also, I think the proverbial you talked about fro- from the mail room to the boardroom, it looks like you have had that journey, so looking forward to learning more. Yeah. Yeah. I, I do wanna j-just, [00:05:00] in terms of the sounding board, one of the opportunities that my predecessor gave to me when we-- when I began at the firm, uh, which has really helped me out, was an executive coaching group.
[00:05:11] Benjamin Gardner: Um, and I spent several years, and this is a plug for-- in the Vistage program, which I don't know if you know what that is. Uh, but they're a worldwide executive coaching program, and that really helped me quite a bit, uh, to get over that loneliness, uh, through, through my career. Uh, and I gotta say that's a, that's something I would highly advise.
We do that here at the firm. We make sure that our up-and-comers, uh, get the opportunity to go out and talk with other industry professionals. Um, what I learned from it is we are all dealing with the same issues. Uh, it doesn't matter what industry you come from. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I, I'm aware of Vistage, but I'm also been part of other similar groups, so, uh, I, I, I couldn't agree more with you.
[00:05:58] Sandesh Joshi: So with that, over to you, Tim, [00:06:00] if you could talk about your career experience so far. Yeah, sure. It's, it's kind of in contrast to Benjamin's in some way. I had no steering. It's nice to hear that, uh, his father gave him some steering. I, I was the first engineer in my family on, uh, either side, and I went into mechanical engineering but really didn't know much about the business and certainly had no idea what the architectural engineering construction industry was, and kind of stumbled into that just looking for a job once I got out of school.
[00:06:34] Tim Griffin: And that ki- that just introduced me to an industry that's been very fascinating. So I graduated, though, v- uh, in 1989, just as a recession was hitting, so I got to see some of the bad side of the industry with its ups and downs early on, but stuck with it, and about 10 years in, really got interested in more than just a job but [00:07:00] having a career and began to look into, uh, learning leadership and applying that to our business.
Went and became fascinated with the business as well. I went back and did a MBA at night over a three-year period and learned a lot there. And then finally, I, I went to a seminar, uh, put on by a group called PSMJ Resources out of Boston that focuses on the business training side of what we do, and was just like, "Wow, this is...
I'm drinking out of a fire hose here." And, uh, they, at the end of class, they mentioned they were looking for trainers, and I thought, "Well, okay, if I wanna learn this material, that's the best way to do it, is to learn how to teach it." And got engaged with them about 20 years ago and have been writing and teaching on, uh, the business and leadership side of what we do on the side since that time and, and that's really helped, um, to advance my career but also advance my education.
And like Benjamin, my president, uh, [00:08:00] several years ago came and said, "Hey, you should join a Vistage group." And I'm going, "What the heck is that?" And so, so I joined a Vistage group and found that probably over the six years I was in that group to, to be one of the most, uh, impactful career, uh, moments and personal moments in my life in terms of just having people really get deep in the side, in- inside of what I was doing in business and in life and challenging me and pushing me and, a- and, uh, and allowing me to learn to be more vulnerable.
Um, and that was very impactful. Awesome. Awesome. I think if I can pick on something you just said, you talked about you started, uh, your career, uh, kind of right in the middle of a recession, and the first 10 years or so were tough, uh, but you stuck with it. So I'm just wondering, you know, what went through your mind and how did you, how did you really- Uh, wha- what kept you going 10-something years, um, you know?[00:09:00]
I was just thankful to have a job. Yeah. And, and, um, you know, and, and, and I came out at a time where, you know, when a recession hit, they would lay off half the office. So then you have to find another job, and then sometimes that process would be repeated. But I think, y- you know, it, it seems tough, but it was a, actually a good time in retrospect to come out because it told me-- told- taught me to appreciate having a job and always pl- plan for a rainy day because you never know what's gonna happen.
Um, but I think that kinda lit a fire under me, too, to make sure that I was becoming invaluable to the organizations I was part of because if things slow down, I wanted to be on the side that was staying, not on the side that was going. Uh, I-- on a similar note, I remember a long time ago when I was considering, you know, how to start investing, and I remember reading a article on Yahoo Finance back then, and it talked about if you, if you make, uh, [00:10:00] you know, make money in your first investment, that is probably the worst thing that could happen to you- Mm-hmm
[00:10:05] Sandesh Joshi: um, because you think that's you. You think you're smart. And but anyway- Right. Yeah. So it sounds like, I mean, as I'm thinking of, you know, dealing with the tough times upfront, uh, you know, prepares you for anything really in the future. Um- Yeah. And like Benjamin, I also have a wife that has, uh, been a great sounding board and, and has helps me to process the big picture and also keep me humble when I needed to be humble as well and, and certainly has been the biggest part of my success in business.
Awesome. And another thing you just mentioned about, I think you've, um, uh, a lot of engineers often, or, or technical people kind of, uh, struggle or at least see different, uh, you know, as they climb up the ladder into leadership management. And, uh, so I'm wondering, you know, how was y- that change? Uh, [00:11:00] uh, how can you look back?
What, what, um, what, what the challenges, what helped you, um, things like that? I think the challenge for me throughout my career here, which has been just wonderful, is, um, they really challenged me. They just kept throwing stuff at me and, and, and, um, and I would take it on. Um, back when I first started leading one of the studios, uh, as an associate, the only associate in the firm, Morano Studio, um, I had no idea how to manage 50 people or what it is.
[00:11:40] Benjamin Gardner: I was an architect, and nobody trained me for that. Uh, you know, they, they trained me to design and, uh, do construction documents. Um- But luckily I had a, a s- the business, and as Tim said earlier, uh, you know, in, in the recessions and that, um, for [00:12:00] me, that's always taught me how important the business side of what we do is.
The-- you can be the great designer and wanna do the, you know, create and run amok kinda, but it's gotta-- you gotta be able to make money doing it, keep your clients and, and be happy. So, um, I think those were some of the things I brought into the career, uh, as a, as starting later in life was that sense of, you know, uh, knowing how to-- what it took to see the business side of it, uh, the efficiencies and, um, that.
So, um, I think that our firm here to this day still has a culture of, uh, of really fostering personal and professional development. Um, I, I got hired at Ayero, my third application, because I kept applying to be a draftsman. [00:13:00] And finally, one of the-- uh, I was building architectural models for one of the architects in the firm, and he told me, "We don't hire draftsmen.
We hire interns that want to be architects, so put that on your application." And, you know, uh, and that got me in the door for an interview. Uh, but it re- it really taught me they, they care about building professionals, uh, and that's what we still value is, um, a team that are, that is dedicated to that. So, um, that was it.
But then the leadership role was more be thrust into having to run a studio. Um, and I got put, uh, shortly after the studio we got for the Great Recession hit, and, um, I soon became a principal, uh, from there. But one of my first duties as an owner, I had to lay off 17 people. Ooh. And that was the hardest thing I'd ever done.
And on construction jobs, [00:14:00] construction sites when I'd worked, I'd fired people before, but not folks that I grew up with, eh, like I had here in the firm, uh, that really were talented, that had no reason to be fired, but laid off. Uh, and I made a commitment to myself, uh, that I wasn't gonna let that happen again.
So the challenge is going out and figuring out the business of getting projects. I hadn't written, written a bunch of proposals in my life. I hadn't, you know, done cold calls, uh, all that stuff. Whatever I did in the first six months really wasn't working, um, so I, I learned the value of showing up. I got on my bicycle as, as everybody here in the firm calls it, and visited every school district in our state Uh, just to walk in and say hello.
And, and usually I'd go unannounced, so I wasn't sitting, having to sit there in front of a board of people that were like, "Show us your dog and pony show." But really to find out [00:15:00] what kept them up at night, how I could be a resource. Um, and that is something I've, um, I've taught everybody here at the firm, uh, that to kinda go out there, be humble, uh, ask the question.
It's not about us, it's about them and how we can help them, uh, become, and how we can become a trusted advisor. Um, and that really kicked me to the, that next level when I started landing a lot of work and had, uh, repeat clients. 85% of our clients are repeat clients 'cause we, we're, we're a resource to them beyond there.
I wasn't shy to fly my own flag, and I tell that to all of our young, uh, folks that start at the firm, 'cause I meet with everybody that starts at the firm, uh, as part of orientation. And I tell 'em, "Show us what you got. We know you have hidden talents, and make sure that people recognize you for what you're, what you're doing."
It's not bragging, but just being able to show them that you're excited about accomplishing, [00:16:00] uh, work. And something I was told by my prece- predecessor was, "Leaders accomplish work through others." And that has really been something that stuck with me a lot, and I still struggle with that with my executive assistant, uh, giving her stuff, trusting her to do the, to do stuff that I don't.
And she's great 'cause she's telling me, "That's... You shouldn't be doing that. Give that to me." You know, 'cause, uh, it's funny, uh, I heard one of the greatest things. Uh, the commander of the USS Albuquerque, a nuclear submarine from the state of New Mexico, was here in town talking, and somebody asked him, uh, about his leadership position, um, and at, at the end of the thing in the Q&A.
And they said, "So what do you do exactly every day?" And he says, "If I'm doing my job right, I have nothing to do because I've surrounded myself with the right people. They know what the [00:17:00] expectations are. They know what the goals are." So I'm still trying to live that dream. Well said. Well said. I think, um, you know, some of the things, uh, I, I...
[00:17:12] Sandesh Joshi: you just talked about, I think what I hear is perseverance. Not giving up is, uh, is, is definitely, um, a theme I see. And I think you talked about learning that at the end of the day, making money is important. And I, I have learned over a period of time, I, I learned to look at money as... I think of money as oxygen for business.
And whether I like it or not, uh, I need to have oxygen to survive. And sometimes More oxygen is good so that I can do more stuff, like maybe go underwater, which otherwise I couldn't, uh, things like that, so. Yeah. Well, it, it... I, I owe you, I always say, uh, profit is opportunity for all of us within the firm, and our firm is an ESOP, so it's employee-owned.
[00:17:58] Benjamin Gardner: Uh, we just did that a- [00:18:00] about a year ago, um, because I'd always felt like I was in, in an ESOP, that I was an owner here. Uh, I was rewarded in that fashion and all this. But, um, profit is not a dirty word. It's opportunity for all of us. Very well put. So Tim, w- how would you describe it? Yeah, I was building off what Benjamin said.
[00:18:22] Tim Griffin: I, I think for better and for worse, our business, uh, it often will throw you off the deep end into something that you are not really prepared for, and you just have to figure it out. And, you know, we, we come out of architectural engineering school, and we really don't know anything. We have to just, we have to learn the craft.
We have to learn our technical skill. And if we do a good job of that, and then we get promoted to be a project manager, which is something we have no training for, no s- you know, no background in, you just have to figure it out. And if you do real well at that, you get promoted to be a principal, and now you have to [00:19:00] manage project managers, and, and you have no experience or training in how to do it, and you just have to figure it out.
And, and one of the ways you typically, the people that are succe- successful at doing that are the people like Benjamin. We're just stubborn, and we, we're, we're willing to try anything and to make it happen. But I kinda like that too. I think for somebody like Benjamin and I, that scratches some emotional itch that we get to try a lot of things, and we're always learning, we're always growing, and, uh, you figure it out as you go.
And, and certainly the control aspect, uh, we, the very reason we were attracted to this business and that we're good at the practice side of what we do is that need for control. We like to control the design or a problem and solve it and own it and do it our way. But when it comes time to have to start leading through others and delegating, it just goes against our [00:20:00] very nature.
And, and so, so learning to be an effective delegator is a big part of leadership as well. And I think, um, that for me, and I think for most engineers and architects in, in this industry, is getting over that hump and b- being a strategic delegator is a big step towards growing in your career as a leader.
[00:20:23] Sandesh Joshi: Absolutely. Um, I think a lot, if not all, um, individual contributors, I l- as I like to say, struggle as they go climb up the ladder to start managing people. The l- control or letting go of control is often a very common theme Um, so absolutely. I mean, y- you're right on. Uh, I'm wondering as you look back, Tim, you know, especially through halfway through your career and as you started getting leadership opportunities or management roles, you know, any, um, you know, what, what would you describe as the, you know, challenging moments or, or turning points?
[00:21:00] Anything that really there's an aha moment, uh, something you figured out, oh, I need to do this or not do this to be successful? I, I think trusting people and getting smart younger people around you, putting them in the right positions, giving them the tools they need, and then getting out of the, their hair so they can do their job is, is just leads to exponential growth.
[00:21:33] Tim Griffin: But it's, um, there's-- I- you have to overcome the voices in the back of your head that lie to you and say, "They're not gonna be able to do it as well as you can. They're gonna mess up, and it's, and you're gonna, you're gonna be sorry that you let go, and this is gonna be all your fault." And it's, uh, it's, you keep hearing those messages, and you just g- have to overcome that and consi- 'cause what happens is, and I'm sure Benjamin has [00:22:00] seen this.
You know, he's in the CEO role. What does that mean? There's a lot of things going on in the organization that he doesn't have his fingers directly on, and that's an unsettling feeling. And if you, if you're getting reasonably comfortable with that is a key to continuing to see the power of the organization grow and be released.
[00:22:21] Sandesh Joshi: Yep. Um, what about you, Benjamin? What do you have to say? To feed off a little bit of what, uh, Tim was saying, um, I really think, and I push all our, our leadership within the firm, um, especially lately, um, to challenge, uh, staff to do exactly what Tim was saying. Find out what they're, what they're capable of doing.
[00:22:47] Benjamin Gardner: You know, when I hear, "Oh, well, they're not ready to take that on," uh, I just-- or, "This is the way we've always done it," I'm just like, "Well, they'll never be ready unless you give them the opportunity." And it's [00:23:00] okay if they fail, uh, sometimes. You know, as, as long as they don't continue with that pattern, uh, we'll be good.
But they'll never get the chance, and, and, you know, I see our, our less experienced staff, um, really wanting purpose in work, and I think the challenge is Making them understand what that purpose is, uh, you know, uh, designing schools or, or a commercial project and what does it mean? It's driving economic development.
It's driving social interaction. It's driving the good things that help, uh, our communities grow. Um, and remind them of that, that it's not just a, you know, a eight-to-fiver, uh, thing and, you know, "I'm done. I'm out of here. It doesn't matter. Uh, I got X accomplished." It really does matter, uh, what we're doing, and I w- I can [00:24:00] say that for a lot of different professions, if you can get your head around that to see what that value is that the, um, that you provide.
[00:24:10] Sandesh Joshi: Well, what I learned is change is the only constant, and, uh, it's better to welcome, embrace it rather than resist it because it's inevitable anyway. Um, and, uh, with change comes, uh, innovation, new things. Um, and not always all good, but, uh, we have to keep moving, um- Well, and that's really the job of a leader is to lead change.
[00:24:33] Tim Griffin: It's... A- and it's, it's hard. It's difficult, but that's, that's what sets good leaders apart, is the ability- Yeah, to manage the change- Yeah ... so you're not reacting. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's sort of, kind of always the, what I've, I've tried to, uh, instill with the, our clients or staff is if this is a managed change, we know where it's going.
[00:24:55] Benjamin Gardner: We know where we wanna be, instead of having to react and not know [00:25:00] where we're gonna end up. Absolutely. And it's great to, you know, for both of you to talk about, uh, you know, you are not perfect, uh, growing up. Like you had challenges and don't know, didn't know, uh, uh, didn't have all the answers, things like that.
[00:25:15] Sandesh Joshi: The humility is so much, um, I would say comforting to especially young listeners who might be thinking about, um, "I'm struggling now. Can I be a leader tomorrow?" Um, so, you know, this is really helpful information. I'm wondering, um, for both of you, is like as you look back to your younger self maybe 10, 20 years ago or so, uh, what would you advise yourself?
Like, what should you have done more or less of? Something that, you know, comes to your mind, I wish I had done something differently. Um, anything that, uh, comes to your mind. I, I would say I wish I'd worried less and trusted others more. And, and, and what I mean by that is, you know, Benjamin, like you said, you're [00:26:00] n- you're now at a point where you're able to, to look back, and s- sometimes I worried about things I didn't have much control over anyway, and it all worked out fine.
[00:26:11] Tim Griffin: If you, if you, if you hire the right people, give them the right training, put them in the right seats, then over time great things are gonna happen Uh, and, and just spend your time focused on that, and it's gonna work out well. In retrospect, I wish I would've, uh, shown up a lot more for community, been more involved.
[00:26:37] Benjamin Gardner: Um, done, um, things that I've learned over time that I've, that I've found are highly rewarding on a personal level, but also on a business level for that connection. Being able to be a, a, a trusted resource and partner, uh, with things. It's just, you [00:27:00] know, now I feel like I could have done a lot more within my community, uh, to, uh...
And within the firm, uh, to be more, uh, involved. But, you know, raising a family, all those things take a lot of time and effort. Uh, um, but I, I, I, I should've taken that time, a little more time for myself in that, uh, relationship building, that networking, um, that learning about how to deal with others, uh, um, in, in just different ways and different situations.
[00:27:40] Sandesh Joshi: Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. I mean, both of you sharing that, uh, I mean, being vulnerable really, and those insightful, um, I guess introspection. So, you know, really appreciate that. Um, I'm wondering, you know, if I fast-forward to today or the recent times, y- you mean, y- you have done so many things.
Uh, [00:28:00] uh, what is it that you're currently working on? What is, um, what is exciting, um, you? Any project? Uh, maybe Benjamin, if you wanna start first. For the last three years, I've been learning how to be a developer. Um, beyond my own family businesses and our school, my w- wife and I have a school, the schools, and assisted living facility, everything.
[00:28:26] Benjamin Gardner: But now I'm, uh, a part of a development team, uh, that is developing a 70-acre enhanced lease use project, which is we've rented. We basically leased 70 acres from the Air Force on their Air Force base here, and we are moved back the security fence, and we're developing that. So, um, and we're with a focus on aerospace, uh, contractors that work with the military.
And through that, I've just learned this whole other world of, of business [00:29:00] and, you know, I dabbled in it when I worked in the commercial group here in the firm and stuff like that with developers that were always a pain in the butt, but, uh, and wanted s- everything for nothing. Uh, but now being on the other end of that, um, and the exciting part is, is as I'm learning out there's a whole 'nother world out there when it comes to aerospace- Uh, companies and innovation.
Uh, it's very scary how far behind we are on China, but from that government, um, getting to work with them is, I ha- as leader of the firm, I have to maintain my clearances, uh, for our government work and our federal work. So that gives me the opportunity to get on base and talk with a lot of these companies, talk with a lot of their mission partners about what they're doing.
Um, and it's fascinating. That sounds wonderful. I mean, it looks like a very big change. I think you are doing very different things than what you've done so far, [00:30:00] but also sounds like, uh, there's a newfound purpose, uh, you know, higher or bigger purpose that excites you. So, you know, good for you. So... Well, I think j- I've always been one that, uh, performs better when I'm challenged.
[00:30:14] Tim Griffin: Yeah, Sandesh, I think, uh, Benjamin and I have one clear thing in common. Our, our greatest fear is being bored, and we're not gonna let it happen, are we, Benjamin? So, um, yeah, so d- as, as he was talking, I was thinking about the-- from my path is there's really, like, been three phases. Uh, back in the 2000s, right before the Great Recession, I was having a lot of success building very productive teams with, uh, y- very young people, millennials.
They weren't calling them millennials at the time. But I was having a lot of success with them, and at the same time I was hearing so many firm leaders complain about those kids coming out of college and, uh, and didn't even know [00:31:00] what generation it was. And so, I did a lot of research on that and some training on that, and eventually, uh, published a book back in 2009 called Winning With Millennials on how do you, how do you have great success with that generation in- specifically for AE professionals.
And it ended up being a bestseller by s- which surprised me, but, uh, got- gave me the chance to meet so many principals, uh, across the world in our industry. And, um, eight years ago in the business, the president asked me to take on our corporate marketing team, which was a, a new phase for me. I'd always been very interested in how do we get work and winning work, and had found that the ability to kinda take on these David and Goliath moments where you're going after a project that you really shouldn't win because there's a bigger firm with a much bigger resume, and how do you come in and [00:32:00] you steal it and then use that to leverage to build for your next great project.
And, you know, and, and it ties into what Benjamin said. How do you, how do you ensure you're not gonna have to lay off 17 people when things slow down? Well, if you have the ability to go out there and get work- Now you have control to keep that from happening. So in building the marketing team over the last eight years, I really dove into how do we get our success rate in marketing up.
And, and so the last three years we've hit over 50% success rate on our interviews when we have a project interview based on qualifications and which is fantastic because we're usually interviewing against four or five other teams. So for the last five years, I've been writing a book on strategic interviewing in our industry, not for people, but for projects.
And it's just really been a passion project and traveling around the country talking to folks like Benjamin, I'll ask, [00:33:00] what's a great story of a David and Goliath moment where you did something outside of the box and won a big one? And also, what's a fantastic fail where you had a project in the bag, but somebody on the team did something and you're like, "Oh, we just lost that job."
And I've been collecting these stories to include in the book. And so the book is finally done and, uh, it's getting published the end of May and it'll be on Amazon. It's called Winning Work. So I'm, I'm looking forward to getting out there and meeting and working with more principals, um, on that effort as well.
And, you know, so the timing of this podcast is, is key to me as well. I just announced to my firm after 28 years, I'm, I'm retiring this summer from being a full-time principal. And, uh, so I'm looking forward to that. But part of it is I've, I've enjoyed building into [00:34:00] professionals here, but I, uh, but I've also enjoyed going out there and working with principals around the country, and I want to be able to spend more time doing that.
Um, so through p- principals training and strategic planning and, um, those type of resources. So that's the next phase of where I'm heading. So I, I-- Benjamin, like you, I think I've got enough going on that I'm not gonna drive my wife crazy in or out the house all day. So, uh, it's exciting. Well, I can see the excitement.
[00:34:32] Sandesh Joshi: I can feel, you know, as you talk about your second book. So congratulations and good luck on the launch- Thank you ... of your second book. Uh, and you said May, isn't it? End of May. Yes, end of May. So about a month from now, it'll be up on Amazon ready to go. Awesome. Uh, Winning Work, um, you know, looking forward to that, uh, copy of the book.
So congratulations and good luck once again. Um, I'm wondering in today's times, uh, you know, one big buzzword is [00:35:00] AI. Um, how does that, you know, how's that going on in your circle, your, your company, your community? Wondering, you know, maybe Tim, if you want to talk about what does AI mean to you or your company?
How's that going on? Yeah, I think, you know, our industry's interesting in that in my experience, and I'm pretty sure as long as there's been architects and engineers, there's never been a breakthrough technology that created massive competitive advantage for firms in our industry. When I came into the business, we were, and I, I know I'm dating myself here, but people were on drafting boards, and AutoCAD was just starting to come in and, and there was about a five-year period where if you got ahead of it, you could have some advantage with AutoCAD versus the competition, but [00:36:00] people adopted it pretty quickly.
[00:36:02] Tim Griffin: And then r- more recently, building information technology has come along, and it was the same pattern. You could get ahead for a little while, but people adopted it pretty quickly. Um, AI, I think, has the potential to really disrupt our industry in some positive and potentially negative ways. Um, in particular, the, the, the positive way is the biggest challenge that our industry faces has to do with the war for talent.
When I came into the business, there were more engineers and architects than firms needed. That it was a commodity, and that's why when things slowed down, they could just lay them off en masse. Well, boomers have been retiring for years. The am- the size of the population coming into the industry is smaller and there's less architects and engineers, and the demand for architects and engineers at the same time is going up.
So you don't have to be a rocket [00:37:00] scientist to know that it's gonna continue to get harder and harder to find and keep good people. I think that that's going to force us as an industry to adopt AI faster than we typically would because, and Benjamin, you're dealing with the, you know, the older people in our industry are going, "We don't-- What?
We can't touch it with a 10-foot pole." I, I, I think that out of desperation, people are go- our industry's gonna embrace it quicker than we normally would. The other thing I think that we're gonna embrace, Sandesh, is, is, is what you're involved in. There's wonderful resources overseas that people have, uh, been hesitant to utilize, and that need is increasing, and I think the smarter firms are gonna, uh, learn how to embrace that more as well so that they can continue to deliver value to their clients.
Now, one of the potential negative things, [00:38:00] um, in, in a lot of industries, your giant firms, your Microsofts, your GEs, they have competitive advantages over the smaller firms- In our business, that's never really been true. I, I-- If, if I'm competing against a large firm like a Jacobs on a project that's in my wheelhouse, I, I have no problem winning that project.
They don't have a cost advantage over me based on their scale. AI could change that because big companies that can spend millions of dollars investing in small internal, uh, language models and can invest millions of dollars in very intelligent IT departments may be able to figure out how to squeeze down cost at a rate that is going to be harder for your smaller and mid-sized firms to keep up with.
So it's gonna be interesting times ei-either way, but [00:39:00] I think that AI is, um, gonna have a bigger impact on our industry than any previous technology by far. Great. I mean, that's a great perspective. Thank you. Um, what do you think, Benjamin? Well, I, I agree, uh, with him on, on this. Um, you know, I must have been a savant because about five years ago, right after I took o-over, uh, as CEO, um, a brilliant young gentleman was introduced to me, uh, who has a computer science background, coding, very personable, very smart, very innovative.
[00:39:41] Benjamin Gardner: Um, and he was working for an agricultural company, uh, figuring out how to automate their irrigation systems and, and this. And, uh, so I really liked him, and I thought, "Man, I better hire somebody like this because w- the technology that's out there right now." [00:40:00] And my peers thought I was crazy. Uh, but he has developed and he has helped us to understand, uh, automation and AI and the other tools in a way that puts us a little ahead of our competition, at least the competition and the CEOs I've talked to, uh, in terms of our systems.
Um, he's our director of advanced technology and has really become integral in everything that we do, and teaching old dogs like me the tricks of how to incorporate AI into our workflows in a way that makes us much more effective, uh, and gives us a little more speed to market and responsiveness, um, and also, uh, opens us up to new ideas that, that we're, that we hadn't thought of before.
Um, that said, I think it's gonna be a, a, a valuable tool if we can figure out how to use it [00:41:00] properly. Um, and I say use it properly because we're still a craft-based industry. There is a craft in what we do, uh, that's beyond just, uh, making a widget or making something. We have to figure out we're problem solvers, and that, uh, we need to figure out how to use that tool to help us, to help us create, uh, solutions to problems, um, and be c- very cautious about not relying on it to, to, uh, think we've solved the projec- process that may have implications, uh, way beyond us and way, and for our clients.
[00:41:47] Sandesh Joshi: That's wonderful. I mean, what I admire and I think I, uh, notice, uh, in your description is that I think you're anchored in the old way of working. Y- I mean, you appreciate the paper value of, you know, the art, [00:42:00] um, i- in the, uh, it being a craft. But at the same time, you're also embracing what's coming up, which is AI, technology.
So we, uh, as true leaders, we all have to, you know, keep, uh, our eyes, uh, you know, wide open, uh, welcome change, uh, and experiment, maybe cautiously at times, but still experiment with new things. Um- Yeah So- Well, I st- I still highly encourage people to draw As we talk about the future, uh, what challenges come to your mind, um, that you see in the industry that, you know, we need to be prepared for?
You know, we talked about AI, but I'm just wondering anything else that comes to your mind. What I can think of that not everybody has yet fully been aware of is, uh, we have a, a gap in professionals moving through the pipeline. And it all goes back to what, when Benjamin s- started, it was during the Great [00:43:00] Recession.
[00:43:00] Tim Griffin: Well, about 2008, uh, we stopped hiring engineers and architects, and we didn't hire engineers for about five years, and for architects it was longer. So, you know, how many of us now really need people with 8 to 15 years experience? We, we all do. But they don't, they, they don't exist because we weren't hiring ei- 8 to 10 years ago or 8 to 15 years ago, and where that first hit our, our business is the need for PMs.
It's about to hit the level where it's the need for principals, and closely behind that, it's people to buy out the people that are retiring. So that gap is going for the rest of my career and Benjamin's career, and for everybody that's now a project manager, is gonna be in the system, [00:44:00] and it's gonna continue to impact our industry.
So just being aware of that's important, and certainly just with the demographics, um- The people side of what we're doing is becoming much more valuable and much more difficult to manage and much more competitive. So I, I really think everything around that issue is going to continue to be the most challenging thing we have to deal with.
[00:44:28] Benjamin Gardner: No, and it's, it's not the future. It's happening right now. I mean, I mean, we're-- you're exactly right. That gap from, uh, 2008, uh, is, is prevalent every day in our- We did it to ourselves ... testing project. Yeah, in our- Right ... succession planning and our project, uh, development, um, that's where we've really put a focus in our firm on, uh, Decker U.
Having our own in-house learning program. We invested [00:45:00] lots of money to make sure that's robust and that we can pe- bring people in that may not have the, the, the skills, but quickly get them, uh, um, up to a skill level that we need, uh, to do it. And, and you're, you talked about the management program, uh, earlier.
You know, investing in stuff like that is, is vital as well. Uh, figuring out all the different ways people are learning is the big challenge. Uh, and the future is gonna be to, to, uh, figure that out before people start using AI themselves to do architecture. Uh, and- You know what, what is interesting, though, AI could actually help our hiring situation because it is devastating the tech industry, which has been...
[00:45:54] Tim Griffin: It's particularly for engineers, but I think for architects too that have been pulled into the graphics [00:46:00] part of that industry and the gaming industry. AI is able to replace a lot of that, and, you know, we've-- for years, we've heard, "Well, you know, if I work at Google, I get a massage, my lunch is free, I get to bring my dog to the office."
Well, Goo- they're letting go of people. A- and in some ways, that's making our industry more attractive because it i- it, it is a good industry, and it, and it is a much more stable industry than when I came out of school, and you could definitely can have a fantastic career there. So, uh, y- there's, there's a silver lining around AI with the hiring too, I think, so.
[00:46:39] Sandesh Joshi: Great. Um, as we wrap up for today, you know, the purpose for this podcast series is really to share leadership stories for the benefit of, uh, especially to be leaders. And I'm wondering, as you think back, uh, what comes to your mind in terms of a, let's say, if I ask for a 30-second advice on, [00:47:00] uh, for a mid-level career person, you know, what is a leadership advice you would give, um, how to climb up the ladder?
[00:47:08] Benjamin Gardner: Be open, be curious. And meaning being open is open to advice, open to feedback, open to challenge. Uh, that is number one, you know. And for my hiring scale, and I don't do a lot of the hiring, our president does most of that, but, um, the give a damn scale was, uh, what I use. You can teach the skills, but you can't teach the attitude, uh, and the, the, the, uh, thing.
So the other one is be responsive. Uh, you talked about the millennials and, uh, uh, I forget what it is, the Gen Z stare- Yeah ... now, uh, thing. Uh, be responsive. When somebody reaches out, tell them, uh, that you can. And old school again, for me, pick up the damn phone when you have an [00:48:00] issue. Uh- I can't do it ... I, I mean, yeah, my, my own daughter tells me, "No, I just, I hate the phone."
And I'm just like, "But you can accomplish so much so quickly." Uh, and the message gets crystal... You can make the message crystal clear. Um, contribute to the solution. So be a partner, be a collaborator. Build trust, uh, and I see that a lot of trust issues with the, with, with younger staff these days. Connect and create.
Uh, like I was saying, uh, that I wish I would've done earlier was do a lot more connecting, uh, with people. Be out there. Uh, provide opportunity to each other to, to learn, to, uh, build on it. Think ahead, which is that, I think for me, I was always anticipating what I had to do next. Or if I got stuck, I was thinking ahead about, "How do I go [00:49:00] around this and accomplish something else till I can get my question answered from somebody without bothering them?"
Uh, and then biggest thing is have empathy. Be kind. Well, that's good stuff. Sandesh, I had, uh, three things and, and, and studying principles in our industry over the last 30 years, I've noticed there's three things that if they do these things, their careers really tend to take off over time. First one is, uh, power comes to those who bring in work.
[00:49:32] Tim Griffin: So learn how to bring in work. If you, if you can bring in work, the power in your organization will go up because it's some- it's a skill that's very valued, and that's what the book I just mentioned is talking about. The second one is power comes to those who fire effectively, and the reason that happens is 'cause very few people in our industry can do that.
If you're building a team, you have to, to get rid of the dead [00:50:00] weight that can't get it turned around- Or your stars and your superstars will get frustrated and leave. But if you can continue to call that team, you can really build a high-performance team. And the last one is power comes to those who learn to lead leaders around them.
Not just leading followers, but leading leaders. Because there's an exponential growth impact if you can develop leaders around you who then turn around and do it and it keeps getting repeated. So invest in your leadership. Get leadership resources to learn how to be that leader that can attract people and train them to be leaders who can repeat that process.
You can do those three things, your career is really going to take off. Awesome. Power to you. That's what it, what you're saying if you can do that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so very well said. I mean, you have given both of us, you have given a lot of food for thought. You know, I really appreciate, uh, both of you being on this podcast series, so thank [00:51:00] you for your time.
[00:51:01] Sandesh Joshi: You know, Indovance, um, uh, the tagline is Let's Grow Together, and in that spirit, you know, thank you, both of you, for sharing your stories to help us all grow together. So with that, thank you once again, and have a wonderful day.