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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This is a space to ask anything and get real answers for real life. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Welcome back to the debrief podcast. It sounds a little weird to say with Matthew Stephen Brown because that's usually what Tammy says, but it is me, and I am here today with my friend, John Martinez. And how long have we been talking about getting you on this podcast? I feel like every time I see you, I'm like, we're going to get you, we're going to get you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, think it's two years. Thank You're being very kind and respectful to your senior pastor. So I first met you, didn't know anything about you. Mhmm. So you were very well known before you worked at Sandals Church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Kind of tell us that story. I mean, I think the guy that interviewed you, Justin Knowles, was a little starstruck when he interviewed you. Absolutely. Are you the real John Martinez? So tell us who John John Martinez was, and then let's talk about what Jesus did.
Pastor John Martinez:So, basically, I was in a I was in a rock band for a long time. Okay. Me too. Never. But I wish.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. Yeah. No. You're in a rock band right now. We basically, was this this early two thousands.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:There was this this scene that came out. It was like the emo screamo scene. If you were born around or not born, but if you were listening to music around that time, you might know. And it was like an amalgam of just, like, emotional music, heavy music, punk rock, like, all blended together.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:Perfect ADHD music. Anyway, so growing up listening to lot of punk rock and heavy music, I gravitated towards that and just made a decision that I was gonna play music for the rest of my life when I was in high school, and it actually came into fruition. Like, I I played a lot. I I went from band to band to find the right group of people to figure out who was gonna help me accomplish this goal. Right.
Pastor John Martinez:Ended up finding some guys, and we played together and ended up actually taking off. We did a bunch of records. We toured the world, did all the things that you would think that you wanted to do as a kid, like what music would look like. You know? And it was it was awesome.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What was the name of your band? A Static Lullaby. Astatic Lullaby. Lullaby. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Super poet. So during that time, I was watching Disney channel with my girls and listening to Disney music. So that's why I missed I missed that whole genre. So
Pastor John Martinez:And we do that now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. I So I think I was into Miley Cyrus at that point in Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. When she was I think she was on that show. What was it called? Hannah Montana. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we were watching Hannah Montana.
Pastor John Martinez:Before the wrecking ball.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Oh, man. So, yeah. So you're doing that. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Things are going great, but you didn't have peace about it. And then something changed. What happened?
Pastor John Martinez:So I grew up in the church and, you know, part of youth group, like invested in all that, but then started focusing on taking off. I did that for about six years, and there was a point where my girlfriend at the time, she got pregnant. I was kind of like in an on and off again relationship. She got pregnant, and I grew without my dad Okay. In my life.
Pastor John Martinez:So I always had this, like, longing and void for that. My mom was around, but it was it was a thing that if you don't have something, sometimes you put more emphasis on the thing that you don't have. And so I grew up without him. And so I always told myself, if I ever become a father one day, that's, like, my focus. So I found out, I was on warped tour, and on the back of the in the back of the bus, and I got a call, and, you know, my girlfriend at the time told me she was pregnant.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. And it was the weirdest thing because I didn't. I had a peace about it immediately. I already knew what I was gonna do, which was I'm gonna stop playing music. Weirdest thing because this is this is my whole life.
Pastor John Martinez:Like, this is everything I ever wanted. I'm gonna stop playing music, and I'm gonna be dead. I I don't know what my future's gonna look like. I got a bunch of tattoos now. Like, I'm I it's that was part of the music scene.
Pastor John Martinez:That's kinda like the look. I'm like, okay. What am I gonna do? So I literally told my band the next morning. They were upset with me because it was like I was one of the writers in the band, and and it was hard for us to, like, manage that.
Pastor John Martinez:But I finished the rest of Warped Tour. Then after that, I was done, and I started figuring out what am I gonna do next. So I got a job in construction.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:Prima Donna, didn't know anything about that. Didn't grow up with a dad who was gonna teach me how to do anything. So I just had to figure it out. Couple years of torture basically from the guys I worked with. They just, like, hazed me forever because I didn't know anything, and then I stuck through it, but it because, again, I was driven by not having my father and wanting to give my daughter that.
Pastor John Martinez:If I was to keep playing music, the reason why I stopped was because if I were to keep playing music, I'd be gone a lot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:Like and I wouldn't at the time, there wasn't, like, a lot of ways to, like you couldn't FaceTime. You couldn't do those things. We were still using a Thomas guide to, like, travel.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hell, yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:The if you had a GPS, you were, like, bawling. You know what I mean? You were rich. So at the time, like, that's what we did. And so I ended up doing construction and and ended up finally my girlfriend at the time, we we didn't work it out.
Pastor John Martinez:We still have a great relationship and everything, but my I met my wife a couple years later, and Jana, and she's been amazing. She actually helped me understand a lot about myself, ADHD, different things that I struggle with. Had a bunch more kids, got my life back on track spiritually, and and then eventually got to this place where somehow I landed in ministry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So how did you how did you come to Sandals Church? Tell me that story.
Pastor John Martinez:So I was invited by my wife's parents.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:So when I met my wife, they they come here, and they've been here for a while, and since CU. And Okay. Yeah. So they've been around for a long time. And kind of in the back end, like they're they're they've been here.
Pastor John Martinez:They've been committed to the church and just super faithful on that end. And they invited us. We came. I loved it. I thought, man, this guy, pastor Matt, like, I I love the edginess.
Pastor John Martinez:Like, you were just edgy. I mean,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:come on. Yeah. No. No. I mean, that's you're reaching people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes I go over the edge. But yeah. Yeah. But you were reaching
Pastor John Martinez:people, and I thought, like, you got my attention. Yeah. And but I wasn't ready to, like, I wasn't ready to, like, jump into anything. So I was one of those guys that I intentionally stayed under the radar too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:I mean, as as best as I could. I mean, obviously, I I stick out, but at the same time, I did my best to, like, not have to sacrifice extra time of my life to do other things. So I was here. I was being fed, but I also wasn't, like, stepping out into other things. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:So we were here for about maybe six years of doing that. Like, potentially thinking about serving and helping, but, like, flying under the radar as best as I could, like avoiding it. Yeah. And so it got to a point where we bought a house in Beaumont. And because of the house in Beaumont, we heard that, you know, there was a banning campus that opened up.
Pastor John Martinez:And at that time, like, I didn't wanna shift. Like, knew I'm like, it's a smaller campus. I'll probably be approached by people. Like, people are like, not that Hunter Park, they didn't, but it's easier to kinda try to stay under the radar.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. For sure.
Pastor John Martinez:It's when there's more people. We went to the campus, and my wife wanted to go. And I was thinking, I'll just entertain the idea, but we'll end up going back to Hunter Park. My kids liked it. Like, so this is the thing.
Pastor John Martinez:Like, when people talk about, like, people making decisions based off of their kids. If their kids will go to church, you'll go to church. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know
Pastor John Martinez:what I mean? And so my kids liked it, and and I could see my wife that got her gears spinning, and I was like, okay, fine. We can just keep trying it. And then that's where everything changed. And I completely like surrendered to serving and being part of the church and actually stepping in and started serving in youth and kids and served every single week in both ministries, and just something happened.
Pastor John Martinez:I remember they tried to get me on the worship team. People found out I played guitar and stuff like that. Some of them didn't know that I played in the band. I kinda kept that, like, on the DL. Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:But they they knew I played music somehow, some way, and they tried to pull me on the worship team so hard. And I I just felt like God was saying that even though that's one of your giftings
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Pastor John Martinez:That isn't where I want you. You know what I mean? Yeah. This is and it was very clear. And so I just listened, and I served in kids and served in youth, and that's where a lot of the affirmations and things came from.
Pastor John Martinez:But that was a pivot that a moment of a real shift.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So the first time I and forgive me if we've met before, but the first time I remember really meeting you was in my backyard.
Pastor John Martinez:Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it was a night with all the youth pastors. And I met you, and you were like, I have ADHD too. And I was like, oh my gosh. Let's let's do l tyrosine together.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's is that the first time we met, or we had we met before that?
Pastor John Martinez:We we met, but that was our first time having a real conversation. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:So in my opinion, that's kind of like the first time we really met.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny. So, you know, Justin Knowles, he is no longer with us. He's at Vantage Point Church, great church here locally.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But he's like, dude, we have this rock and he was telling me all about you, and I was like, Man, I never heard of him. I never heard of that music. And then after you and I talked, I tried to listen to your music, and I was like, I felt, I literally felt like I was 90 years old. I'm like, I cannot get to it, because it's a lot.
Pastor John Martinez:It's intense.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, it's intense. That's a very specific word, intense. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So a lot happening. Mhmm. You know? For me, it just made my ADD like, I'm like, oh my gosh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, but
Pastor John Martinez:I remember you said, I went, I listened to it at the gym, and I felt like it was just it was so much. Yeah. Like, I felt like my brain was gonna explode or something And like I just laughed because it's it's not for everybody. It it is intense. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:So it just depends, like, on the person's style.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Think it's maybe So I think so too. Because I was never into punk in the eighties. Yeah. Like and then the shouting stuff back then. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In the nineties, you know, the Yeah. A couple of my friends were in bands like that, and I'm like, no. You know, I wanna understand and not be yelled at.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so what was your entry point into sandals work working at Sandals Church? Was it the youth pastor role? Yes. Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. It was a and that was a that was hard to begin with, just saying yes to that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So you go rock star, construction, used bastard.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. Every every every step of the way has been like an extreme of some sort, which has been like my entire life, and and a lot of unknowns, and saying yes to things that I just never Yeah. Thought I would. And so I I was there serving a lot. I had met different people that I became close to.
Pastor John Martinez:You know, Matt and Erin Smith, who operations lead, and her husband served so much, and Jack Letham and his wife, Leanne.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:He's a pastor at Fresno right now. Yeah. And then just various other people that had Joelle Holland and Steve Holland, Yeah. They were Yeah. And she was she's worked she works here too.
Pastor John Martinez:And I just had different people that were telling me that they saw something in me that I didn't see. I was like, oh, yeah. I'm just serving a lot. Yeah. I see it.
Pastor John Martinez:Like, I just
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Do you not considered yourself a leader?
Pastor John Martinez:I I consider myself a leader, but I never would have considered myself a leader in ministry. Like, inadequate to do the thing that I grew up thinking only certain types of people do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:Right? Yeah. So just I'm thinking what I have to offer is, you know, my experiences as a kid, as an adolescent, like as in music and other things like that to hopefully invest in other kids. I have a bunch of kids of my own now. Like as a father, like, I care about the next generation.
Pastor John Martinez:So I'm thinking to myself, like, this is probably the the the way that I can contribute. Yeah. Not having to, like, go and teach anybody, just being able to be present, hang out with them, and just talk with them, listen to them, and stuff like that. So that's kind of where it was, but there were people that were seeing things that I wouldn't have saw Yeah. If, you know, if you slap me in the face with it.
Pastor John Martinez:Like, it just wouldn't I just didn't see it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Let me tell you a couple of things, and it's not in the notes, but a couple things that I love about you, for those of you who don't know John. You know, if I was a rock star at any point in time in my life, I probably would be a lot to handle. Think it would be a problem. You are one of the most authentic people I've met, and like specifically, when your wife challenges you, you listen, you take that, and she challenges you with some harsh things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. You know, she's not like a fan, she's a wife.
Pastor John Martinez:Yes. You
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know? And she said some harsh things to you. You've been challenged here at this church to grow in some areas, and you just kind of take that in stride. Where do you think, how do you think you got that? Because when I think rock star, I don't think, Hey, tell me where I'm wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think, I'm a celebrity, I'm a prima donna, and you don't have that vibe at all. So is that just the Lord's grace? Where did you get this idea that I need people to speak into my life? Because it's I
Pastor John Martinez:think it goes back to when I was a kid, and it goes back to those father wounds. It's like all that longing to, like, people please say yes, all the things that now I also know have to be countered and boundaries to be there and learn to say no and be okay with it. But back then, I just I cared so much about, like, not necessarily what people thought of me, but being misunderstood. And so I always was going out of my way to try to help people understand me. And and throughout my entire life, even when, like, I was doing cool things that I thought were rad and people liked, and you were being, you know, affirmed by their people in, like, your skill and how good you are and all these things, I, Yes.
Pastor John Martinez:Of course, anybody appreciates that, but it was deeper than just, like, I wanna be admired for my skill. It's like I wanted to be admired as a person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:And so I never really thought I was better than anybody. I think the ego comes from, like, thinking you might be better than other people at times. And when you are in that scene, it can it can get that way really fast. Right. And there was moments where I struggle with that too, but it's usually internal.
Pastor John Martinez:Like, I was always constantly, like, trying to be an advocate for people, or or I'm I'm a team player when it came to, like, writing music. I was always kinda like, oh, That idea, that even if I didn't necessarily, like, love something, I was willing to
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:Work with people. So going into that space now, I I just realized the importance of feedback. I I understand the importance of allowing people to speak into me because I didn't have that growing up, and I wanted people to understand me, and I feel like the the way that they would understand me I know that this now, but back then, I feel like the way that they would understand me is if I was willing to do the work to help them get there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:And that might have been to kiss butt a little bit. It might have been to just, you know. But you're
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:not just, because some people are like, yeah, yeah. You're not a yeah, yeah guy. You listen and you try to change, and it's truly an exceptional thing about you.
Pastor John Martinez:Thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think the thing that's surprising to me is like, when I listen to your music, I would not have said, John's trying to write a hit song. That's not what I get from your style.
Pastor John Martinez:It's art.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. It's but it's what you like, and if you guys don't get it, that's fine, but people gravitated to it. So that's what I'm saying. You're not a guy that was like, you didn't go into music to be liked, you went into music to perform and create.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes, And so that kind of person tends to blow people off. It's like, if you don't like it, whatever, but you listen, you care, you receive hard feedback, good feedback. Like, you just have such a humble heart, and I know that's hard to hear when you're on a show, but it's true. I mean, it's hard to hear because we all want to go like, No, not really. Uh-uh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But it's true, And so I'm just really proud of you to have you on the team. So if you want to listen to something very different, the name of your band is?
Pastor John Martinez:It was a Static Lullaby. Static
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Lullaby It's on a band. He still gets checks. Occasionally. You know? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Gets some occasional checks. So come on, debrief listeners. Let's download some tunes.
Pastor John Martinez:They they're they're wild songs, and, again, it was back in my secular days. It wasn't a Christian band. Cool thing, though
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:I do wanna share is about a year and a half ago, we had some people that reached out from some other bands, and they were putting this festival together that they do every year. And they encouraged us to get back together and play reunion show. And so I was I was I checked in with Ron, and I'm like, Ron, should I even do this thing? And he was like, dude, go be a light. And so we played this this show, and it was the weirdest thing.
Pastor John Martinez:Like, I didn't, like, promote it online. And I because I I wasn't I didn't want it to be about me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:I I had this weird feeling that I was supposed to go administer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Pastor John Martinez:And what and that's exactly what happened. It was the craziest thing. So we we played this concert. It's called, like, California's for Lovers Festival or something. It was one of those emo driven, screamo driven shows, if you like that kind of music.
Pastor John Martinez:That which is weird. This that that whole genre is making a resurgence right now. It's, back. Okay. And I thought it was a gimmick, but it's, like, actually back.
Pastor John Martinez:And so we played that show, and I got to see all of these people that we used to tour with and play with. And they were asking questions like, so what are you up to these days? And I'm like, oh, I'm a pastor at a church. And they're like, what? Yes.
Pastor John Martinez:They were like dropping f bombs like Yeah. That's crazy. You know what I And and I'm and they're telling me, yeah. I haven't been to church in a long time. I did grow up in the church, and I got hurt from this or that.
Pastor John Martinez:And I got to, like, literally be the person they knew me to be, but now this different version of me. And I had the most amazing conversations. Fans from back in the day were like, what are you guys doing now? What are you doing? And people that used to I remember going to all of our shows all the time.
Pastor John Martinez:And this was this show was outside of the call. It was at the Coliseum. Okay. And it was, like, the coolest thing. Got to go play this big show, and I got to have a couple of our friends, like, come and see us see me play.
Pastor John Martinez:I got to have a couple of my kids go up, and they were just like, dude, there's people, like, moshing to your music and singing the words. Yeah. Yeah. And it it was crazy. But I I had a I had a couple people be like, why would you do that?
Pastor John Martinez:Secular man. And I just told them I said, if I didn't think that I could go into that space and be covered, have my armor on, know that I'm good, then I wouldn't have done it. Yeah. But I knew that God was gonna use me in that space, and I was just dropping seeds all over
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the
Pastor John Martinez:it was the coolest thing. Even my wife, we were driving home that night, and she was like, that was the craziest, like, evangelistic feel that you could have been in. Like and people wanted to hear what you had to say because they knew you from the four. And so it was just really unique and and special. So I got to do a couple reunion shows, and that was fun.
Pastor John Martinez:And they're they're gonna still play. Those guys are gonna keep playing. I I was I'm like, I I'll be willing to teach someone else my parts. I don't care. I just don't have the capacity to Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:To continue to do stuff like that. It doesn't align with where I'm at right now. Yeah. So I felt like I did what I was supposed to do, and that was it. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah, it was cool.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think that's a great, I think for somebody out there who's like, how can you be light in such a dark place, as long as you realize you can pull out whenever you need to, I think it's a good thing. When it becomes more about having that exposure and being in that scene than Jesus, that's when the problem Yeah. Becomes. I have a a good friend of mine, Claude Hickman, you know him. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, he's big into BMX all around the globe, and a lot of people criticize him, and I'm always like, go, be a part of it. Right. You're going to be in places that no one will ever listen to my message or the debrief.
Pastor John Martinez:That's what Ron said. They're not gonna have that. That's a space that nobody else can get in, and you got to do this. Some people not to cut you off, but I just wanna share some people actually started coming to Sandals because of those shows that I played.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen.
Pastor John Martinez:Crazy. So there's a couple from that went to Anaheim, and there's some, like, maybe, like, four or five people that came to our campus because of it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, that's incredible.
Pastor John Martinez:So it's So I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:would say as long as you can be the light, be the light. But if you're becoming more like the darkness, then you need to get out. And every person has to walk through that in and of themselves. When I went back for my ten year high school reunion, I call it the apology tour, I just had to let people know, Hey, I'm different, and I made some mistakes. And I just wanted to make sure that if anybody ever heard, hey, Matt Brown became a pastor, everyone would know, yeah, he repented.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's changed. Yeah. Jesus changed him, and he can change you. So I wanted Jesus to have the glory for my change, and people not to assume that I just changed jobs, but didn't change as a person. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think it's important. Alright. Let's jump into this first question. Cool. Things people don't realize about working as a megachurch.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So no pressure, but your job is on the line. So
Pastor John Martinez:I got this. What are the
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:most rewarding parts, and what are the most challenging parts being a part of such a huge organization?
Pastor John Martinez:I think that, well, we we as a as a church, yes, we're a megachurch, but at the same time, our our church is different. We are doing something where we're taking what could normally be misconstrued as, like, all about us, doing our thing, big thing. Yes, Hunter Park is a bigger campus, but it's never been about like all come to here. The reason why we plant all these other campuses in, some of them old church buildings, some of them revitalized like churches, is so that we can be in our backyards. And so I have people that come to our campus that are shocked that we're part of something even bigger.
Pastor John Martinez:They they're they think that it's this, like, smaller, nice setting, even though we've doubled in size since COVID, which is crazy. But at the same time, it still feels smaller than you would you would think, you know, it's definitely smaller than Hunter Park. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:So people come and they think like, oh, this is a nice church. There's good stuff going on. It's not super small, but it's not massive. Then you let them know, like, we're part of this many campuses, fourteen, fifteen campuses, whatever. And and they're just like, wait a minute.
Pastor John Martinez:What? So this is a megachurch? Yeah. And I think for us, we get the benefit of being able to articulate a really special vision. And I think our vision of being real with ourselves, God, and others, it goes it aligns with where we're going as far as reaching people, being able to be have people from our backyard come to our campus, community context, all that stuff.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. Like, we're able to do all of that instead of, hey, we're doing this thing. Everybody just come here
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:To one spot. Right? If it was just one big stadium, and it would it would just be much different. But we're trying to do what we can to to to go to people. So I feel like our even with missions work now, it's like we're doing all sorts of stuff that we're going to people.
Pastor John Martinez:And I I believe that personally, I believe we're doing the megachurch thing the right way. Yeah. We're trying. And it's not perfect, but we're doing our Yeah. I would imagine it'd be a lot different if we were in another setting, but I think I think we do a pretty good job at managing that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think the secret sauce of Sandals is your testimony. Right? It's easy to come to Hunter Park and blend in, and not step up and step out, but when you go to a smaller campus, people notice you, they connect you, and I realize for you, that was a little wobbly because you were a rockstar, but I think that the smaller campuses allow, and just so you know, my whole childhood, went to church, I never went to a church as big as your campus. That's difficult, yeah. My church growing up on Easter Sunday, counting the guy lost in the parking lot maybe was 200.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know what I'm saying? It was church Yeah. Before we were like- Yeah, yeah, yeah. So your campus is much larger than anything I ever experienced. It's just the church has changed in terms of how big it is, and a lot of that has just to do with cost.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Takes more people now to actually run a church than it did when I a kid because people tend to give less money and give less time. You could run a church with 100 adults when I was a kid. You can't do that now because, know, let's say 50% of those 100 adults were tithers when I was a kid, and that paid the bills. Nowadays, man, you got to have $2.50, three 100, four 100 to pay the same pastor that you did in 1980. I mean, it's just, it's a challenge.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think that's a good word, and I would just say, again, you know, if Hunter Park feels too big for those of you who come to Sandals, go to one of our other campuses, it is so much easier to get connected. Such amazing campus pastors there, like John, whose job primarily is to lead and love you. To lead you Yeah. To become the disciple God's called you to be, and to love you, and you can just have eyes, and your team can have eyes on the people in a way that we just can at Hunter Park, and I think that's fantastic. And we are one church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't care if you go to Banning or Hunter Park or Redlands or East Valley, I just care that you go to church, and so I know we still have some listeners. It's been five years since COVID, they're still not attending, and so if there's a real health issue, that's fine, but if it's just habit, man, let's break that habit, and let's connect with God.
Pastor John Martinez:I would say with Hunter Park too, Hunter Park's amazing. I would say if you live near Hunter Park, go to Hunter Park. I would say like the thing that we want is people to be in community, and so how are you in community? By going to the campus where you live. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:Like your vicinity. So I I it just depends, I think, where you are, but also if you're looking for something smaller, we have that. Yeah. And there's some other campuses that are nearby that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:are Yeah. No. I think that's great word. And where you are is one of the fastest growing areas in all of Southern California.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. Beaumont, Banning
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Pastor John Martinez:Cherry Valley, all that, like the Mountain Pass area.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It is every time I drive out there, it's thousands and thousands of new homes. It is unbelievable.
Pastor John Martinez:It's crazy. We have the smallest sanctuary
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know.
Pastor John Martinez:Out of all We're
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:trying to fix it. It's Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:Hey. Open hands. Open hands. I swear, we're we we have the small sanctuary, but we're but we have 400 plus a week. And that's not everybody that calls at home, and it's just like, god's moving, and we're just you have we have to adjust and figure out what we have to do to accommodate those people, and we're gonna do our best we can.
Pastor John Martinez:Like and so you just Yeah. You just have to stay open handed, I think, and just let God Yeah. Make a move.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So if anybody has land in Banning Beaumont area or a large building in Banning Beaumont area, we would love to take that off your hands
Pastor John Martinez:Oh my gosh. Because we
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:need some room. Yeah, we do. So it's it's great what you guys do out there. I I just absolutely love that place. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So let's talk creative blocks Yeah. Versus spiritual dryness. You've been both a a creative musician and a pastor now. When I say those two words, creative blocks versus spiritual dryness, how do you see those two things working together, working against each other? What's your just thoughts when
Pastor John Martinez:I throw that out there? Creative blocks, I think, are just moments that you feel like you can't push through when it comes to something that you're, like, normally good at or something that you feel like should normally come easier. You notice those blocks because if you you feel slowed down. Mhmm. And spiritual dryness is like something where you just there's something happening in your life, and it's a block that you definitely aren't gonna see sometimes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:And you need other people around you to kinda speak into you and things like that. So I feel like they're they're two different things. Sometimes they can if maybe some of your creativity is involved in ministry and things like that, you kind of sometimes they can also come together and affect each other. But I think spiritual dryness for me is just, it's when I'm kinda doing things on my own, I'm depleted. Right.
Pastor John Martinez:And I'm not allowing other people to speak into my life. And and, you know, your inner circle. Right? Jesus had his inner circle, you know, and and we should all have that. And we have people that can see and sense when you are when you're dry.
Pastor John Martinez:Mhmm. Most of the time, they see it before you see it. And I think that or or you're not seeing fruit. There's usually signs of, like, becoming more depleted and and drier, I guess. But creativity, I feel like the most of my creative spark comes from when I'm I'm honestly spiritually healthy.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. I feel like I'm I'm more motivated. I'm more alive. I feel more creative than I ever was even in the past. Like, I still write songs now.
Pastor John Martinez:When I decompress, I pick up my guitar in the middle of the day, and I just play noodle around for thirty minutes. And it's like and I just feel so good when I do that almost more than I ever did when I played music for a living. But it's because of where I'm at spiritually. So I sometimes they they can kinda come together, but most of the time, think they're a little bit different in that way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Agree. You're more aware. I would say that creative blocks versus spiritual dryness, I would say they're similar and different, and I would say both are solved with two issues, struggle and Sabbath. And so a lot of people fall into a creative block because of the struggle, but it's out of the struggle that creativity comes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's why garage bands have this huge success, right, and the enemy of success is success. Then all of a sudden, you're rich, you're in five store hotels, you're eating caviar, nobody wants to listen to your music, dude, because it's not coming out of a struggle. And that's why bands lose that ability. Success is the greatest enemy of success. It's that desperation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Then I would say spiritual dryness comes from stopping. I haven't been stopping, I have been Sabbathing. I have to disconnect and rest, and I just think we don't realize, especially in Southern California, we're always going.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we're not Sabbathing. We're not stopping. Have you been to Israel yet?
Pastor John Martinez:I'm going actually this next summer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. So it is truly an amazing thing to be in Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. I would just encourage you, if there's any way to walk down a street where nothing is happening. Yeah, that's right. The first time I ever went to Israel, we got lost and ended up on the freeway, and we were the only car.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was on Sabbath. It was like the rapture happened. We were your only car in both It was bizarre, and we were so lost and hungry, trying to find a restaurant to eat. So it was crazy. We had to go where the sinners are.
Pastor John Martinez:That was a COVID man. Oh, man. That was great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So let's talk about this is a good one. How about living out faith without being performative? I always hear that with, you know, people that that lead music. You know, is it about the performance, or is it about God? So so how do you live out your faith without being overly performative when you were a performer?
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. I mean, now, you you could kind of think of it as like if you're on a platform. I mean, because you would know, like, you're teaching, you're
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:in
Pastor John Martinez:front of people. It's easy to get to a place to where you're just going through the motions and doing the thing that comes natural to you and being performative because you have to execute, you have to do the thing that people are expecting you to do versus actually doing it from the place where God is in control and using you as the vessel and conduit for it. I think that there are moments. Like, if you're going back to being spiritually dry, if you're spiritually dry, you can get to a moment where you're just performing. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:And you're just doing the thing. And I think for me, I I'm lucky because well, no. Not lucky. I'm blessed. There we go.
Pastor John Martinez:Because I have people around me that just have seen me, have learned me, understand. They know, like, who I am. I've kinda wear my heart on my sleeve naturally. And they they're able to help me, like, hey, man, I love you, but you're not really being yourself right now. Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. And that really happened with when when learning to teach. This is like the best thing ever because I had people around me that were willing to say, hey, You're doing better. You're getting better, but you it looks like you're trying to be pastor Matt or pastor Claude or or pastor Fredo or
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just so you know, I used to do that.
Pastor John Martinez:Well, that's what I'm saying. And so because for me, I never really man, even saying yes to being an associate pastor and then becoming a campus pastor Yeah. I never because of Sandal's model, it was like your your your focus is mainly on shepherding. Right? And there's a difference between teaching and pastoring.
Pastor John Martinez:Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Pastor John Martinez:Most most of the time, people think they're exactly the same thing, but they're different stuff. Yeah. I agree. And and so when I found out that I was gonna be teaching roughly, like, every six weeks, I'm like, man, this is the time that I'm like, okay. Here we go.
Pastor John Martinez:I gotta learn something and get better at something quickly. It's like in my mind, right? So I did this cohort with Claude, and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it was amazing. He's a great teacher.
Pastor John Martinez:Oh my gosh, so fantastic. Claude, you were talking about, BMX bike, he teaches at sandals all the time too. He taught an amazing message today that everyone's Good. I haven't heard
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it yet.
Pastor John Martinez:It's so good. Good. What I will say is that in the very beginning, I was being performative. Mhmm. And people saw that, but it was like right away they were able to say, man, that was good, but you can tell that you were trying to be something that you're not.
Pastor John Martinez:And I'm like, okay. Thank you for the feedback. Now, I mean, I share my my notes with people. I I'll teach in front of, like, a couple different people to set and I just I've noticed that every time I teach, someone goes, man, you're being more yourself. Oh, you're being more yourself.
Pastor John Martinez:And I remember I was watching a podcast. It was like the art of teaching or something podcast. It was like a couple different pastors. They were on there. And I remember them saying something like, well, they said, you know, I realized when I was teaching, I was worried so much about what I would say and what they would think if I said the wrong thing.
Pastor John Martinez:And then I realized, dude, these people are for me. Yeah. They want to see me do well. They want to see me succeed. They know my heart, so I could say the wrong thing or misquote scripture, and they're going to know that wasn't my intention.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Pastor John Martinez:And I thought about that, and I was like, man, that is so that is such a good word because I know the people at my campus, like, love and support me so much that they're just rooting for me so that if I, like, if I stumble on my words or just like, whatever, they're they're they're not worried about that. They're just they're just so grateful that I'm saying yes and working on my craft and doing my best to be myself up there. And every single time I get better because of the fact that I know they have my back. I know you have my back. I know our church has my back.
Pastor John Martinez:I have the most amazing amount of support for being one of the, like, the not I'm not the youngest on the team as of our pastors, but I but I'm one of the earliest in ministry. Youngest in ministry work and teaching and things like that. So I just felt so supported to be me and from my church, from you guys. And so I just feel and you've been such a support for me. You're just, like, always checking in.
Pastor John Martinez:Are you good? And, like, how was your teaching? Are you feeling and and I know, man. Like, I know you're a critique on teaching. Like, you because you care very deeply about it.
Pastor John Martinez:So the fact that I'm even trusted to do this blows my mind still to this day. So Yeah. I had to work really hard to stop the performative part of things. Yeah. And so, yeah, I had people around me that are just constantly letting me know when I'm when I'm when I seem like I'm not being myself Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:And then when I feel like it sounds like I'm being more me. Right. And and there's the fruit that I've experienced from people sharing their stories and responses to my teachings where I was being myself. Yeah. Most of the time, stories where I'm throwing myself under the bus left and right, those are the things that people really, really relate with because nobody people don't wanna feel alone in their struggle.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. I love that. And I appreciate your humility. Okay. One last question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Handling critique from church people versus music people. What do you think about that?
Pastor John Martinez:Church people? That one hurts. Yeah. Is that you think it's because you care? It's because I care very deeply.
Pastor John Martinez:Yeah. I'm a or, like, I'm I'm I'm a high I'm a seven, but my four is like two points underneath that. Okay. Yeah. So I'm such a four, creativity, but I'm also such a feeler.
Pastor John Martinez:So like I said earlier on, I have this fear of being misunderstood. And so when I get critique, in the beginning, it really did sting. And this is before even being a pastor. It was just like more so just leading ministries and trying to figure things out. And when you carry deeply and then someone says something, and they don't understand where you're coming from, or they don't even try to understand, they just kind of paint this picture of what they think you're doing, that hurts.
Pastor John Martinez:That hurts a lot. But in ministry, you kind of have to suck it up, and you have to figure out a way to get beyond that. What I've figured out is that when you're willing to solicit feedback and critique as often as possible, you are like you have your glove on. You're ready to catch the things that are thrown at you, and it hurts much less. And then you realize and you kinda get it's to me, I feel like it's like an addiction to learning how to get better in life and and find my weak spots.
Pastor John Martinez:Mhmm. And so you solicit it enough, and you just learn that that's just a way to grow. And you're being very proactive in wanting to grow. So you also it it also helps with humility. Right?
Pastor John Martinez:We outdo each other in humility. So when I'm talking to somebody, I'm I'm absolutely, like, trying my best to live that. So when I'm sharing that with somebody, they know that, like, that's what I do, and it it's so helpful. But feedback stings. Critique stings.
Pastor John Martinez:Music, again, early on, like, it might have mattered because I was trying to get somewhere.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:But once I was already going and I was doing the thing and I've actually was somewhat successful, I I it stung less because I was just like, well, if this song's not very good, I can write another song.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. If this
Pastor John Martinez:song's not very good, I could write another song. But I also, know, kind of like you mentioned earlier too, the music itself wasn't like I'm trying to write this, like, super crazy radio hit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Pastor John Martinez:So it was more artistic to begin with. So in my mind, not everybody was gonna understand it to begin with.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:So it was more like a musician's Yeah. Like, kind of thing. Like, I felt like I wrote music almost for musicians or people that understood music
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:Sometimes more than people that were just, like, listen to the radio. Right? I love every style of music, but that's just the thing that I gravitated to as far as what came natural to me. Mhmm. So yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, I think what you just said is just so important for anybody in ministry. You said with music, some people just aren't going to get it, and if we could have that attitude with the gospel, because there are going to be some people that just don't get it, and so like when I grew up as a church, right, church was church people focused. We were very religious, and what I mean by that is like Catholic, right? So you knew exactly, if you knew when to church, you knew when you were just going to sit up, sit down, you knew where the hymnal nut was, you knew what the sermon was, you knew when it was over. It was very insider focused.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then we had the seeker movement, so Bill Heibels, Rick Warren, and what they were trying to do is reach people that were seeking God, but weren't religious. And so I think that was a beautiful thing, but then it got weird. We started trying to reach people that weren't interested, and so then church became not church, and that's when we got messed up, and so I think that the healthiness of a church model is, and I call it double barrel preaching, so I'm trying to preach to the Christian and to the lost person who's seeking, but I'm not trying to win an argument with an antagonist who's sitting in church or watching my clip online. I'm not going to convince them. I'm not going to I can't do the Holy Spirit's work, so my job is preach to the sheep and to reach the seeker.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I try to be focused on that, and then just know, sandals is not for everybody, I'm not for everybody, and that's why God has thousands of churches.
Pastor John Martinez:Yes. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And a lot of Christians that maybe don't like sandals, they don't get sandals. It's like, well, God's created a church to reach somebody like John Martinez, and he's created your church to reach somebody like you because God cares about all these sheep, and so I wish we would start encouraging each other more in different churches, in different denominations rather than critiquing. But I think that was a beautiful word Such from
Pastor John Martinez:a word that you just shared. That is so important to me. I'm in the middle of right now just developing a bunch of relationships with the other pastors in the Mountain Pass community right now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep.
Pastor John Martinez:And even this weekend, we're, like, gonna go do a prayer and worship in this park in Banning, and we have, like, a bunch of we had that event not too long ago where it was like a was it better together? It was a church community kind of thing that we put together, giving people ideas and things that worked for us and haven't worked for Sandals, and we're doing something similar right now. And for me, it's what if someone comes to Sandals Church and they're like, this is not for me. I can't get beyond not hearing the pastor in person every week. I can't get beyond this.
Pastor John Martinez:I can't get beyond that. Well, like, what what do we do with that person? Right? If I can say as a shepherd that, you know what? I know some other pastors in the community.
Pastor John Martinez:They have some other churches that that are that have Yeah. Great doctrine that maybe maybe check it out. Yeah. You know? Or or you can go to Hunter Park.
Pastor John Martinez:There's live teaching generally a whole time. So my thing is is, like, yeah, we're part of this bigger thing. And and if someone's not into me as a leader, I'm not gonna my my my feelings don't get hurt anymore. I'm like, I'm just not gonna be the person that they're gonna connect
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor John Martinez:It might be that like that with even people at our church. Mhmm. I might not be the guy that they that will reach them, the Lord will use. So maybe they need to talk to one of my ministers. Mhmm.
Pastor John Martinez:And I just got a handful of new ministers that are were nominated and approved by you guys. And and and so now I have all of these different people to like, hey. Maybe you could talk to this person or talk to this person or
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:talk to
Pastor John Martinez:this person. So I I think we have to be okay with not being the person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, amen. Amen. And allowing other people to minister. Alright. Thank you so much for listening today.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is John Martinez, and just such an incredible leader, incredible pastor. His Sandals Campus is in Banning in the past, and if you haven't been out there, you need to go out there, because it is not dirt anymore. It is thousands and thousands of homes. So for those of you that listen, please send in your questions. The show is only as good as your questions, and we want to answer those.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's the thing is there's no dumb questions. The only dumb question is the one that you needed answered that you didn't ask. And so let me encourage you to send that in. And here's the thing. I learned so much, John, through their questions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Man, there's stuff that I've missed in scripture for years, and you guys are like, hey. What about this? And I'm like, I don't know. I gotta study.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So send in your questions, and, again, we love you guys. Grace and peace to you. God bless.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.