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In this episode, we explore the realities of midlife—a phase often marked by deep reflection, unexpected challenges, and powerful transformation. Centered around the concept of the “happiness U-curve,” we unpack why many people experience a dip in fulfillment during their 40s and how this period can become a turning point toward greater authenticity and purpose.
Through candid stories and honest conversation, we reflect on how career choices made earlier in life can lead to misalignment with our evolving values, often sparking a midlife reckoning. We discuss the tension between pursuing stability and honoring creative or personal aspirations, as well as the emotional weight of “what could have been.”
Relationships also take center stage, as we talk openly about long-term partnerships, shifting dynamics, and the effort required to grow together rather than apart. We highlight how self-awareness becomes a crucial tool in navigating both internal struggles and external changes.
Ultimately, we reframe midlife not as a crisis, but as a recalibration—a chance to question inherited beliefs, embrace authenticity (even when it disrupts comfort), and intentionally design the next chapter of life.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.858)
Welcome back to the Shrink Down. Terry recently shared a post in our group chat that gave us all pots. Well, apparently, 47 is officially the unhappiest age on record. So since all four of us are in our 40s, we thought, is this really true? And if so, why is this true? So today, we're going to be talking about what we call the happiness U-curve. And basically, what that is is why midlife, there's this dip in our happiness. But before we get into today's topic, we're going to do our four-minute faves. And we're going to start with Terry today because
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:15.278)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (00:30.294)
You
Vanessa (00:30.98)
She needs to refrigerate her fave.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:32.526)
Ha
Teri (00:34.131)
Yes, mine is mush, the overnight oats brand. And I have made overnight oats for my kids and myself sometimes for years since they started eating. I don't know, Danny's 11. So I don't know, 10 years or so I've been making overnight oats periodically and they really like it. And I'll make it sometimes for myself. And then I found these and it's all simple ingredients. You can read everything and
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:39.73)
yeah, I've heard of that.
Vanessa (00:40.418)
I've had that,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:46.723)
Yeah.
Teri (01:00.356)
is a good way to hit your fiber quota. Because as we all know, fiber is the new protein. this year and part of fiber. And as a side note, you can't just bulk up with fiber, you need to be hydrating a ton. So you can't just be like fiber, fiber, fiber, you need to do fiber with a lot of water and hydration. But these I've been mixing with yogurt, or just eating by themselves and adding fruit like blueberries or strawberries in.
Wilhelmina (01:03.263)
Hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:03.47)
Hmm.
Yes, this year, yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:16.689)
yeah.
Teri (01:28.45)
And there's different flavors. There's vanilla bean, there's apple cinnamon. I'm not getting paid by them. There's strawberry. I have them all up. They have to go back in my fridge. And one time a while ago, Costco had them and I got them and I felt like I didn't like them like a year ago, but then I've been getting them at Whole Foods and I probably eat them for breakfast maybe like twice a week or whatever. But because it's oats and oatmeal, does really fill you up for a while. And it tastes good and it kind of mixes it up and I'm very pleased with them. So.
Vanessa (01:33.978)
Hahaha!
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:34.222)
You brought them all out.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:58.606)
That's fun.
Teri (01:59.0)
I like that, yeah. No sugar added.
Vanessa (02:00.302)
They have those at the airport. So you know at the airport, lot of the like, so the little, you know, the little, the little refrigerated section that has like all the healthy stuff. So they have those sometimes. So I've actually had them at the airport. So if you're ever traveling, you can look for them at the little airport refrigerated section. I am always scared. like, this could give me salmonella. I don't know. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:05.137)
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. It's better than the hard boiled eggs that are in that section. Same. No, yeah. Don't do it.
Teri (02:13.507)
Okay.
Teri (02:21.036)
I know. They're tempting, but you just can't. Mm-mm. No, no.
Wilhelmina (02:29.737)
I feel like the marketing person, maybe the name Mush, maybe could have been better.
Teri (02:35.172)
Okay.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:35.566)
Honestly though, that's what I think of when I, if you had asked me to guess what was in there, that's what I would have guessed. To be fair, I wouldn't have thought it was yogurt, you know? So yeah.
Teri (02:40.589)
Yeah.
Vanessa (02:40.706)
Yeah, overnight. I mean, is mushy. mean, it's. Yeah, it is mushy. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (02:40.905)
That's true, that's true.
Teri (02:45.196)
It's oatmeal oats oats. add it with I add yogurt to it. I see. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:48.918)
No, no, that's what I'm saying. Like it is in my brain. Mush is oatmeal. Not even though it's a yogurt package like the word mush makes me think oatmeal. So like for me, that would work.
Vanessa (02:53.316)
Yeah.
Teri (02:56.012)
Yes. And it's and it's sold in the section where yogurt is at a grocery store. So, yeah, so.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (03:03.372)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen it. just have never actually purchased. So that's good to know.
Wilhelmina (03:03.98)
it is. Okay. Okay.
Teri (03:09.55)
Do it, do it. Okay, that's it. How about you, Vanessa?
Vanessa (03:09.7)
Yeah. Tasty.
So today we're talking about midlife. So this is gonna come in handy for any of you who are in midlife. So we always talk about, I think you hear most often about like stuff for your face, like creams for your face, serums for your face. And I have recently been looking for something for like...
body to help with firming your body. And I've tried some expensive stuff and I'm like, I can't tell if this is making a difference. So I did a little searching and I had seen some influencer that I follow who also recommended this. But in my search, this came up as a low cost.
cream for your body that actually has really nice results. So it's Gold Bond. I don't if you ever tried this. So it's the Gold Bond Age Renew Retinol Overnight. So it's for your body. You can use it on your face. I don't use it on my face, but I it on my body. It's like, I think this is like, this bottle is what, 13 ounces? It's like $16, I think. So it's very reasonably priced. And I really like it. So like, if you're looking for like a good moisturizer, it's really good. It supposedly has, what was that?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (03:54.424)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Teri (03:58.553)
Hmm.
Teri (04:12.164)
Do you do it overnight since it's called overnight? Because I don't do.
Vanessa (04:16.61)
I mean, I've done it both. Like I do it at night, but I also do it in the morning. I'm actually like horrible with like nighttime routine. I am much better with like a morning routine. Like I try to do stuff at night, but I'm so tired that I'm not a good nighttime. I'm much more like my morning routine, put all the things on. So I've done it both and it's, you can use it. I don't know. You can use it during the day.
Teri (04:19.756)
Okay.
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (04:23.15)
Yeah, I do mourn it. Yeah, same.
Teri (04:25.996)
I do lotion in the morning.
Yeah, but.
Teri (04:33.922)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so I was wondering, because I'm not going to rub lotion on my dirty body at night. I shower in the morning. Unless you're a nighttime shower. Okay.
Vanessa (04:42.554)
much to take a bath. so yeah, so if you take a shower at night. But anyway, I've used it during the day too, but it's very moisturizing and the cost I think was really good. And it does have retinol in it. It doesn't say how much it does, but I looked it up and like some independent studies have looked like it has a decent amount. It's clearly not the same as like a prescription retinoid cream. Like it's $16. So don't think that this is a very good moisturizer is what I would say. So Gold Bond.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (04:43.189)
And same.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:02.732)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Vanessa (05:12.218)
It's a good one.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:13.166)
It's funny, it feels like things like that, like some of the things that have been, the brands that have been around for forever are the ones people are going back to for these kinds of things. Just like solid ingredients. Yeah.
Teri (05:13.166)
funny, it feels like things like that, like some of the things that been, the brands that have been around for.
back to for these kinds of things. Look at the solid ingredients. The reviews on both, Target sells it, Amazon, it's really impressive. How many reviews, thousands and thousands of reviews and good numbers. So you're looking for a good moisturizer for your body, I'd say GoFundMe. All right, who wants to share now?
Vanessa (05:20.952)
Yeah. I mean, if you look at the reviews, yes, the reviews on both like Target sells it, Amazon, it's really impressive. Like how many reviews, like thousands and thousands of reviews and good numbers. So if you're looking for a good moisturizer for your body, I'd say Goldblum.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:41.326)
you think.
Vanessa (05:42.2)
Yeah. All right. Who wants to share next?
Wilhelmina (05:46.354)
go. So I am going to recommend a book that I read over spring break. It's and the reason I'm recommending it is that it's coming out with a TV show in a couple weeks, May, May 13. So it's called The Deal by L. Kennedy. The show is called off campus though. So it's a different name for the show. This is
Teri (05:51.396)
that I read over spring break. And the reason I'm recommending it is that it's coming out on the TV show in a couple weeks.
Wilhelmina (06:17.043)
Just fun. It's just fun, fluff. It is not, it's nothing my book club is going to be reading. It's nothing intellectual. It is literally just fun. I would say I described it to a friend who reads a lot of like fun rom-com romances. And I was like, it's not as like good as like an Emily Henry, but it's better than like if you, if anyone knows like Tessa Bailey, cause Tessa Bailey is like really.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:42.54)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (06:45.461)
It's in between there. So it is about, it's set in college and it's about a music major and the star of the college's hockey team. And they join up for some tutoring. It has two of my very favorite romance storylines. are at the enemies to lovers storyline and the fake dating storyline, which of course then transitions into.
Vanessa (07:07.598)
Yeah.
Teri (07:08.736)
and the fake dating.
Wilhelmina (07:14.207)
true feelings. So it's got both of those. And what I like about it is that I'm really, picky with like sex scenes and books. And if you are adding words, I know if you are adding words that I'm like, no, describing things with other words, and you like you can't really talk about the sex in like a way that you're like an adult woman. I don't like it, turns me off. And this is like the right level. It's not too much. It's better than like
Teri (07:32.749)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (07:43.08)
Shades of Grey or, there was something else, but yeah, Shades of Grey was just like the ultimate like, the wording of that. Too much. So very fun. Had to put it down at night, like wanted to keep reading it. The deal. And then, and as it's going, yes, the show is called Off Campus.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:45.933)
Yeah.
Teri (07:49.603)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:51.438)
too much.
Teri (07:58.464)
what's it called again? The deal? Got it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:04.353)
but the show is something different.
And it's another hockey storyline. Wow, very popular.
Wilhelmina (08:10.491)
So that's what's funny is it is it is another hockey storyline.
Vanessa (08:12.223)
Yeah.
Teri (08:16.184)
Someone cranked that out. Hockey's hat.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:18.072)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (08:18.965)
May 13th, Amazon Prime, the deal, the previews look very promising. I think they're kind of looking for something to fill the summer I turned pretty void. Now there is a funny, it's funny you mentioned that it's about hockey because I did see someone saying like, when people are comparing like this show or this book to
Vanessa (08:20.748)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:29.193)
I turn pretty.
Vanessa (08:29.37)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (08:41.589)
He did rivalry is a little bit like saying the summer I turned pretty is like saving private Ryan because they both have beaches So and I'm like, I'm not sure it go that far but they are very different They're just just happen to have a hockey player as yes So yeah, very fun. Very light if you're looking for something to go into the summer that you can like combine with the show It's a good
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:47.552)
got it, got it. That's funny. Element. Yes.
Vanessa (08:48.64)
Yeah
Vanessa (08:57.474)
I think.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:02.35)
That's.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:08.814)
It's fun.
Teri (09:09.316)
Cool. Appropriate for teenagers? Appropriate for teenagers or tweens? No? Okay. I only ask because sometimes parents when I do dyslexia evaluations are asking, is there any upcoming books paired with shows or movies that would maybe pique my child's interest? Yeah. So I just was wondering, but okay. Sounds like the sex part, probably no.
Wilhelmina (09:10.505)
Lauren. so.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:25.512)
I always recommend that. Yep.
Vanessa (09:27.194)
Mm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:29.794)
I'm like stuck on Percy Jackson. can't recommend anything else. I'm like, well.
Wilhelmina (09:30.1)
This.
Teri (09:33.622)
I know.
Wilhelmina (09:33.705)
The sex is a bit, maybe an older teen, like there's for sure, like there's like a rape storyline then and some, the sex does get pretty graphic. So yeah, I'm like, yeah.
Teri (09:37.453)
Okay.
Teri (09:42.592)
okay. Nope.
Vanessa (09:45.37)
I'd go with no. That's a no.
Teri (09:46.616)
Hey.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:48.942)
I'm going to say no to that.
Wilhelmina (09:51.261)
Like would this have been something I read as a 16 year old? Maybe. Like, you know what I mean? Like should I have been reading it? Maybe not, but like.
Teri (09:55.641)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:56.3)
Yeah, but broad recommendations probably. No, probably not going to go down that route.
Vanessa (09:59.715)
Yeah, by your therapist? Probably not.
Wilhelmina (10:01.749)
Probably not, no.
Teri (10:04.3)
No.
Wilhelmina (10:05.029)
I told Maddie, cause she wants to see the show and I told Maddie that I would watch the show first because I'm like, you never know how much they're going to play up or play down the sex. So I was sort of like, if it feels like it's not too much, then she can watch it with me. But I was like, if they do it, if they do the book, if they align with the book, then there's going to be a point where it's going to be like, Exactly. If they're going for the summer, turn pretty, then they're going to dial it down a bit.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:10.862)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
Vanessa (10:24.834)
Yeah, depends who their target audience is. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:28.088)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (10:28.792)
Okay.
Vanessa (10:31.565)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (10:33.95)
Lauren, what about you?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:34.062)
Sounds fun. So I am recommending, I wanted to show it to you guys, but I'll of course send the link. A puzzle box for gift cards or money. So Jack just actually the day we're recording, it's Jack's birthday right now. We just celebrated his birthday with my family yesterday and my parents have the last few years for each of the grandkids as part of their gift, put some money in a some sort of like puzzle box.
Teri (10:53.056)
Aww.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:03.096)
that you can find them anywhere. my parents have been scouring Amazon and finding some really fun ones. And the one yesterday was a lot of fun. the grandkids from four to 12 were all trying it out. Even the adults were trying it and having fun with it. it's a, I don't know if you guys can see it, it's like an egg. It's a 3D egg and you have to twist and turn it. That's the maze. So picture you're doing like an actual maze on a piece of paper.
Vanessa (11:22.595)
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:32.974)
but you're doing it in your hand to be able to open it and then get the, you know, the prize money inside or a gift card or whatever. Um, so I'll send the link, but it was a lot. This one was a lot of fun. My parents have done different ones over the years. And this one, the kids all had a lot of fun with. And like I said, even the adults, so it's a fun way to sort of add to a gift, especially if you don't know somebody very well. Um, so like think of all Terry, you were talking before we started recording about like,
Vanessa (11:37.05)
That's cool.
Teri (11:41.431)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:59.15)
birthday parties and I feel like all I'm doing nowadays for kids birthday parties if I don't know the kid well as a gift card. Like this would be like a nice way to like make it a little bit more interesting than an envelope. So yeah, it's like a little maze. It's it's called like 3D maze puzzle box mystery egg. So it's just kind of fun added to the excitement of getting some cash, you know to be able to open it. So yeah. A good one.
Teri (11:59.992)
Mm-hmm
Wilhelmina (12:00.853)
Hmm.
Teri (12:04.238)
Same.
Vanessa (12:04.346)
Mm.
Teri (12:08.843)
I love that.
Wilhelmina (12:10.697)
Yeah, that's a great idea.
Vanessa (12:12.634)
It's cool.
Teri (12:24.401)
I love that.
Vanessa (12:24.546)
I have to say, Lauren, when you posted that picture, I was like, he is your mini. Like, I always thought he looked like you, but now I'm like, my, he's like, cause I was older, like, yeah, he's like your mini. Yeah. Yeah. my goodness. Yeah. He's your mini.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:30.221)
Yeah, yeah.
Teri (12:30.52)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (12:32.082)
It's so true.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:35.182)
Yeah, because, well, yeah, because he's, yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. Yeah, he's got a lot of my genetics there. Not the height piece. is, he is passing me in height very quickly, both of them. But yeah. Yeah.
Teri (12:41.294)
Yeah.
Vanessa (12:52.812)
All right, so one, we got into our topic for age 47, this unhappiness tip. We started kind of passing around things that we found online and I thought a good way to start this conversation was sharing a quote that Wilhelmina sent to the group and it said, in your 40s, there will be a moment you realize the life you're living was designed by the 22 year old version of you who had no idea what they were doing. It's very important to give the current version of you a vote. What are your thoughts on this idea, this lady?
Wilhelmina (13:19.029)
you
Teri (13:22.936)
really hits home.
Wilhelmina (13:24.659)
Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (13:26.33)
For a lot of reasons, I think we can all agree.
Teri (13:29.38)
For a lot of reasons. I think any woman in her 40s, mid 40s, late 40s, maybe early 40s, like I don't think I it would have hit as well for me even two years ago. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know if you guys would agree with that. There's so I don't know if it's hormonal. I don't know if it's just life on this earth. If it's your kids aging and approaching puberty. don't whatever it is. It.
Wilhelmina (13:44.437)
Mm-hmm. I agree. I Like.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (13:48.354)
Yeah.
Teri (13:57.72)
definitely resonates and it's like, huh, you're right. Your career, where you live, maybe your partner. Think of all the different domains of your life, the different buckets, and you're sort of like, this was a lot of what I planned for, what I worked really hard for, what I've been working towards, that, especially the career choice piece, but that was all chosen by our very young selves.
Wilhelmina (14:25.855)
Yes.
Teri (14:26.188)
are very young, inexperienced selves.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:26.296)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (14:28.74)
Well, I mean, we're forced to, mean, let's start with career. mean, that's something that we are essentially forced to decide when we know that our frontal lobes are still developing. So you have this like, you lack life experience, you'd have this not totally developed brain. And now we're told to pick what you would like to do for the rest of your life, you know? And sometimes the stars align and you continue to love that. And then other times, I think, and we've talked about this for different reasons.
Teri (14:31.822)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (14:38.953)
Right.
Teri (14:40.035)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:49.326)
Yeah.
Vanessa (14:57.09)
we would have picked a different path, you know? And so I do think that some, all those things that you talked about, you're like, I don't know if it could be this or that. I think a lot of those things contribute to this feeling that we have at this age. But yeah, picking your career when you're, you know, so young, I think it's bound to a certain percentage of people who would just say, don't, this is not what I would have chosen.
Teri (15:23.588)
The unhappiness peaking at 47 tracks in some ways because it really, think truly is a midpoint for a lot of people in those different threads of their life. I think you can evaluate, you know, am I going to live like the last couple of years have been very similar, right? Once you're sort of in a mode. And so do I live the same year 40 more times and call that a good life? Right.
Vanessa (15:50.21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (15:50.668)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (15:52.409)
Well, and I sent you ladies this podcast episode that I had listened to a couple of years ago. I don't know when it came out, but whenever it came out, I listened to it. Okay. Okay. And it is a Huberman episode. It is what is the actual number of it. Okay.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (16:02.102)
was 2024.
Vanessa (16:03.578)
2024. Tell everybody what it is.
Teri (16:03.886)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (16:13.016)
It's, I have it here. It's how to find your true purpose and create your best life.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (16:14.156)
I just.
Wilhelmina (16:16.949)
Yes, with Dr. James Hollis. And I kind of stumbled upon this episode and started listening to it and was blown away by what James Hollis was saying, which talks to what we're discussing right now. And he's saying that like the first half of your life is a react. Your whole first half is reactive, reactive to your childhood.
Teri (16:16.974)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (16:18.83)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (16:45.321)
to your family of origin, to cultural settings, to expectations. And he's like, we make a ton of major life decisions in that first half of reactive, like for reactive lives, our partners, our careers, all of these things. And he's like, and then we hit this point. And oftentimes, if you're even aware of it, you, if everything's worked out, great. But for a lot of people, you hit this point where you're like,
I have achieved all of the things I've wanted and why does it feel flat? Why does my life feel a little bit like, this is it. I'm gonna play this day over for the next 40 years and then I'm gonna die. that's like, and Dr. James Hollis goes into for him, he had a career path that was all lined out and he was, he had achieved it. And then suddenly had this like crippling depression which like landed him
Vanessa (17:27.096)
Thank
Teri (17:28.305)
Ha ha!
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:41.048)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (17:42.196)
like completely derailed that version of himself. And he changed career paths, he went into psychology, and now he's like, he's written books, he's like clearly like a very, he's a very well known psychologist. And that wasn't even his first choice of career, that was his like midpoint shift. And it just, the things that he was saying,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:49.87)
you
Wilhelmina (18:08.425)
definitely resonated with me and had me sort of exploring. And I think it was already in that place. So it was just hitting at the right time for me of that midlife point, looking at career stuff, friendships, marriage, all of that. And really kind of having this reckoning of like, this is the one life, right? This is it. Like the things you don't do, the things you don't change, that's just gonna be it. And then that's it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (18:16.813)
you
Wilhelmina (18:37.385)
You don't get a do-over. don't get a, next time I'm gonna do this. Next time I'll do this. Next time I'll choose this path. This is your time. So if you wanna change it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (18:41.678)
Right.
Vanessa (18:46.692)
So if you guys had to go back in time, who would have chosen the career path that we're in right now? And who would have changed it? Glorin would have, and I believe you.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (18:55.446)
I would. So, but here's why I was thinking about this. was thinking about this and this whole conversation, the link that Wilhelmina had sent the podcast and sort of the little quotes and the piece about 47. So, so much of those early years of our adulthood are goal oriented. And if you don't include values with your goals, then I think you get to this point. This is where we're assessing our values. This is where we're trying to figure out what our purpose is.
Wilhelmina (19:19.209)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (19:25.334)
And so if we achieved all the goals, but we didn't really have the values behind them. So I always knew that I wanted this career for a multitude of reasons. A primary piece being, I really valued the idea of making my own schedule and being able to be a mom when I wanted to be a mom and really be able to have that flexibility in doing so.
Wilhelmina (19:39.497)
Yes.
Teri (19:40.247)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (19:42.634)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (19:46.327)
And so now where I'm at with regard to the career and the mom piece, I feel like there's like such a perfect rhythm for me. And that doesn't mean the day to day isn't like we're all in May right now. And it is like, I'm like, ha, there's so many things going on in the month of May and like the day to day scheduling piece, but I can do it. I don't have to say like, I'm stuck in a certain kind of career with a certain kind of schedule and I don't have ownership over an
Teri (19:53.252)
.
Vanessa (19:59.963)
Thank
Teri (20:09.986)
My boss won't let me, yeah.
Wilhelmina (20:11.795)
Yeah.
Vanessa (20:12.794)
But I think that's different. Like you're talking here, what you're saying is that like working for yourself, right? Like in being able to have flexible schedule. I mean,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (20:19.818)
I valued that and I valued the idea of being able to help others. I came up with my career based on my values. And so then I set goals to accomplish the career, but it was all values driven. So that's why I would say yes to your question of like, am I in the career I wanted? Because even before I understood what values were, like now we like learned it along the way.
Teri (20:25.432)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (20:25.816)
That's what I'm asking more is about being a psychologist.
Teri (20:31.289)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (20:46.892)
With regard to actual like therapeutic work, think of acceptance and commitment therapy act, like, you know, a cognitive behavioral approach of like, yeah, if you're actually like working toward values, you never actually achieve them, right? It's working toward goals that you achieve that then you can end up and be like in that depressive state of like, wait a minute, I achieved everything I wanted to now what? But if there's values behind the goals that you achieve, so for me, that worked out from a career perspective. That doesn't mean everything, but.
Wilhelmina (21:14.789)
Well, and I think it also means that you were aware of your own values because I think sometimes people think they're aware of their values, but they're really their family values and they're not their own values.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (21:20.716)
Yes. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I'm going to just interrupt you really quickly, Wilhelmina, because you hit the nail on the head for me when I was in high school, my senior year of high school, the amount of people that told me I should be a doctor. You should be a doctor. You're so smart. You should be a doctor. I heard that a lot because I was very academically driven and like gifted in that way and very blessed that I could do that. But I didn't want to be a
Vanessa (21:26.682)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (21:38.932)
Hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (21:50.883)
Like I'm talking primary care, like a physician. I had zero interest. And if I had listened to all those people and there were a lot of voices, a lot of adult voices that were saying that at the time, I just knew that that wasn't what I wanted to do on a day-to-day basis. But you are right about, sorry, sorry to interrupt, continue, but that is exactly what it is.
Wilhelmina (21:53.222)
MD, MD, yeah.
Wilhelmina (22:09.331)
No, no, that's, and I think of the example of like religion and how we grow up in homes and often, obviously, like if you grow up in a religious household, then you take on that religion for yourself. And I think there are points where, especially as an adult, you go, does this religion actually fit with
Teri (22:11.278)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (22:37.028)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (22:38.493)
my own values. And sometimes the answer is no, you know. And so there's an example of something that you just like you grow into and some people just keep going with it and don't even question it. And some people sort of have this like, is this what I want? Is this what I believe in? Is this does this go along with my own values? And that that was an example that I could think of, of like a lot of people have this from a very young age, and then they maybe make a point of do we continue in the same path? Or do I make my own path?
Vanessa (23:07.898)
Yeah, well, I, well, I, answer my, question that I threw out there is I don't think I would have chosen this career path. I definitely did not have the foresight at 18, 20 that you had Lauren. But I do think that my choices were definitely driven by what I was hearing from my family. So I had really wanted to go to art school and I, yep, I had my application. I was going to apply and, you know, I,
Wilhelmina (23:08.231)
of like.
Wilhelmina (23:17.222)
Hahaha
Wilhelmina (23:26.942)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:31.15)
always forget that. Yeah, right. Yeah, remember that.
Vanessa (23:37.443)
Also, you know, I also had straight A's in high school and I was also really smart and I got the message that like, I would be wasting my time doing that. And what was I going to do going to art school? And, you know, so I went to college because that's what I was supposed to do. And, you know, kind of got out of there with a degree and, you know, I was like, I ended up with a bachelor's in psychology. And then I was like, then now what do I do with this? You know?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:40.268)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (23:45.621)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:53.09)
Yeah, the shoulds.
Wilhelmina (23:55.541)
You
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:00.898)
Yes.
Vanessa (24:02.582)
And so I, you know, I was a caseworker for a year before I went to grad school. And, you know, interestingly enough, my mom is a psychologist. So that's not why I went into this though. I, as a caseworker, I got to see people doing therapy with real, like the clients that I was working with, the kids on my caseload. And that was how I said, okay, I want to help people. And while I thoroughly enjoy helping people,
there is a part of me that just wishes that I had done something more creative. And so I constantly am finding myself looking for that outlet. Like while I enjoy my work, I feel like I have to find a creative outlet for me to kind of feel fulfilled, to feel fulfilled. So yeah, so for me, the answer would be no, I would have chosen something else. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (24:54.835)
I think I would have chosen psychology because there's certain aspects to it that I was drawn to it very, very early. just once I kind of discovered even what psychology was, I was like, that's what I want to do. I've always been fascinated in people and kind of I feel like I have always been drawn to, well, I want to know more, tell me more. Why do people make the decisions they make?
Why do they choose different things? Why do some people turn out this way or that way, whatever. I think what, and I also Lauren, just similar to you, I always wanted to sort of be my own manager of my time. I hated from a very early age being told like scheduled and different jobs where I just, have to be here, here and you don't get to say when you get to be off or whatever. just like.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:38.328)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (25:40.708)
same.
Wilhelmina (25:52.914)
react to it viscerally. So I sort of was like, I'm going to be in my own private practice. Like I sort of had that direction early on. I think the thing that has come to full circle now is that I did get to the point of like opening my own private practice and being the boss and all of that and realized, wait, there was actually a lot of aspects to the business side of this.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:53.485)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:58.393)
Figure this out, yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:15.31)
I just want to be my own boss. right, right, right.
Vanessa (26:16.922)
yeah, that's my motto.
Wilhelmina (26:19.669)
I just want to be my own boss. I don't want to be the boss of anyone else. And that has been a like a, well, like I just did all of this and got it achieved it. And I mean, this is what James Hollis said. I am aware of it, but now it's a little like.
Vanessa (26:27.986)
Laughter
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:33.848)
But you're aware of it.
Teri (26:34.404)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:38.092)
Uncomfortable. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (26:39.669)
Can I get back into my DeLorean and just go back a few years?
Vanessa (26:39.684)
people who've done that. But I and I know people who I do know people who are in private practice who, you know, expanded it had people they work for and they were like, this is not working for me and they reeled it in and now they're just back to themselves. So you can always do that. I mean, and honestly, that's why I people always ask me, do you want to expand your practice? And I say, Absolutely not. I do not want to be in charge of anybody. Because there are things that come along with that.
Teri (26:46.37)
Mm-hmm. Same.
Wilhelmina (26:48.871)
Mm hmm. Yep.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:49.667)
Yeah.
Teri (26:52.462)
same.
Wilhelmina (26:53.469)
yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:53.656)
Yeah.
Teri (26:58.5)
No.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:58.666)
I know, same.
Wilhelmina (27:01.343)
Yes.
Well, you, Terry, you told me this for years. You told me this for years. I should have listened. I should have listened.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:06.934)
Yeah.
Vanessa (27:07.0)
laughter
Teri (27:08.1)
I never wanted to say I told you so and not to sound like a naysayer.
Wilhelmina (27:13.287)
No, you don't, you did not need to. It's like definitely like I hear you.
Teri (27:17.358)
But, and you guys know I'm pretty open with you guys, but I had the advantage of working at a large group practice for a couple years that you did not have, Olamina. And I saw firsthand behind the scenes all the good, the bad, and the ugly. And my advice to you is coming from that place. And so I was able to make a different type of informed decision just having that lived experience.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:17.578)
No, you were aware. Well, let me know. Yeah, yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:25.654)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (27:29.299)
Yes, yes.
Wilhelmina (27:39.38)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:39.608)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (27:45.61)
Well, and I thought I was gonna build it differently, which I did, but then I was like, but that doesn't make money. And I don't wanna have to be the keeper of other people's time. And I don't want to ever, just let, like, I just don't. So that is a realization of like, I would still choose the path. I wouldn't choose this last bit of it thinking, and it's something I thought I wanted the whole time.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:45.763)
Yeah.
Teri (27:56.44)
I know.
Vanessa (27:56.536)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:57.379)
Hmm, that's interesting. Yeah.
Teri (28:10.606)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:13.453)
Yeah.
Teri (28:13.572)
Right. And I'm 50 50. So I'm right with Wilhelmina where I fell in love with psychology. I loved it. Even in high school, knew I was going to major in psychology in college. My plan starting college was to try to get into graduate school and go through and get my doctorate. So I was very focused on that and I just loved reading about it. I felt really passionate about it. I was very curious. I was always a very avid reader growing up. And I think that if the climate, when I made that decision,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:22.894)
Yeah.
Teri (28:43.544)
This was 25 years ago and the field of psychology, I thought I was entering and I was preparing myself for, if that was still the current reality, I think I would be 80 to a hundred percent satisfied. I think the climate working, especially with kids and teens with technology and social media and just the proliferation of so many, just the way our society is currently, I don't know if I would have signed up.
Vanessa (28:53.167)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (29:12.11)
to be in a helping service profession in the current climate. I had known, but if things were how they were 25 years ago and I wanted to enter psychology and had a little bit of work experience, I think I'd be much more satisfied. I think there's so much that we have to manage and navigate that is really challenging. And, on the other side, I'm right with you too. I always hated having a boss. I always wanted to work for myself and be my own timekeeper. So there's some really good advantages.
Vanessa (29:23.064)
makes sense.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:36.749)
Yeah.
Teri (29:41.87)
to this degree and having this profession. We can go teach if we want, we can work in a hospital, we can be self-employed. There's so many different avenues you can take with a PhD in clinical psychology that that aspect I feel very satisfied with. I can scale up my work, I can pare it back. So, you know, I feel like I'm 50-50, but I don't wholeheartedly encourage young people to go into this profession unless they know pretty much what they want to do.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:44.248)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (29:49.198)
flexibility.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:55.352)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:07.138)
They really don't understand it. Yeah.
Teri (30:07.64)
And if they really know, and do you really need this, what type of advanced degree do you need? Can you stop at a master's? Do you really need a PhD? You what do you actually want to do with it? So I like I'm 50-50.
Wilhelmina (30:08.191)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:20.28)
But I think with career, like answering that question specific to that Vanessa asked specific to career, as with anything, it's interesting to me, like the flip side of that question of like, why did we think or why do people think that when you make a decision like this, it has to be forever? Is it because is it is it like evolutionarily, like we didn't used to live this long? So like, we didn't question decisions because you were dead at 50? Like, is that what is?
Teri (30:38.41)
the invest, I think it's the investment.
Vanessa (30:45.562)
Yeah. I mean, think part of it's an investment how much time you invested in like your education. I mean, again, obviously this depends on what you do for it, right? What you're like, some of it could just be like, oh my gosh, if I start all over again, like how much money like, am I going to have to put into some other, you know, that could certainly be, it. The fear of
Teri (30:46.904)
Well, I think that's part of it. The investment, the time, the money.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:51.148)
That's true.
Wilhelmina (30:52.159)
money.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:54.54)
Yeah, that's true.
Teri (30:59.929)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:05.346)
And that's probably true of things more than career investment and all sorts of different life choices.
Teri (31:07.34)
Yeah. And say, well, yeah, what about other aspects of our lives?
Vanessa (31:08.942)
Thank
Wilhelmina (31:11.827)
Well, marriage. I mean, you marry someone in your 20s and then you are with them. Yes, 20s are, you marry someone earlier. You're right. That's, but like, and then that's a long, that's a long life.
Teri (31:15.822)
Sometimes, yeah. Right.
Vanessa (31:23.63)
Well, that's one of the things, you know, it's so funny. So Dr. Hollis mentioned this, whoever, like you really need to listen to that podcast. It was excellent. It's really long. I actually want to go back and listen to it, but that was another thing that he brought up. And it's funny, well, I mean, when I looked back through our texts, you mentioned this. And when I was listening to the podcast, I was taking notes on things that he said that just like really like, he just has like such a pleasant.
Teri (31:29.794)
Mm-hmm. Very good.
Vanessa (31:46.713)
Like he has like the voice of like what I, if I envisioned like what a psychologist sounds like, like that is the voice. And so he, so he, he talked about the marriage, the 50 year marriage. So he said, you know, he would not applause immediately a couple who has been married for 50 years because he would want to know what that actually looked like. What, what does, do these people look like?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:47.085)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (31:47.144)
I know.
Teri (31:47.683)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:49.484)
It puts you to sleep.
Teri (31:52.323)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:54.562)
That's funny.
Wilhelmina (32:07.882)
Yes.
Teri (32:08.396)
Hmm.
Vanessa (32:11.418)
as individuals and he even talks about the soul death that these people may be experiencing. And I just went, I never thought of that. I think what's the divorce rate right now? Is it 50 %? So thinking about it, like 50 % of marriages, a divorce. So now we have 50 % left and of that, we cannot assume that these people are happily married, which...
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:25.931)
yeah, at least. Yeah, yeah.
Teri (32:26.232)
the list.
Wilhelmina (32:26.355)
I think it's still, yeah.
Teri (32:39.042)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:39.235)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (32:41.064)
I'm sure everyone, I'm sure the four of us, we each could find a marriage that has lasted the X number of years. And you look at them and you're like, I mean, I think they're just, they're just, they're just in it. Like they're just literally like, this is their life. And.
Vanessa (32:51.29)
Why? Yes. Yes.
Teri (32:52.044)
Is it quality? Well.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:56.878)
Well, it's, it's interesting. I've helped people, but I've worked with people before where parents have chosen to stay together until the last kid graduates high school. And those families have more difficulty. Those kids, those young adults struggle more at that point than it because ultimately
Teri (33:05.251)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (33:11.96)
Gas!
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:17.398)
Everybody says they all knew that like their parents were in an unhappy marriage. And then it feels like even though they knew that their parents were lying to them and then it was just because of them that they stayed, it all feels very cursory and it's confusing. And even though these are like 18 to 20 year old young adults, it can actually be more harmful to everybody involved than to make that, you know, that shift, that life choice.
Vanessa (33:19.226)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (33:19.401)
Yes. Yes.
Teri (33:40.612)
I've had the same experience. I could probably, if I had to name how many families I've worked with over the last 20 years, 10 plus probably, where parents waited till they were in college and that ended up being more stressful for the family dynamic. And it also, you know, I think about marriage, I think about all relationships, even friendships, you start to have a loyalty to the history of the relationship that might not exist anymore.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:46.829)
Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:55.608)
Yep. Yep.
Wilhelmina (34:06.633)
Yes.
Vanessa (34:10.36)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (34:10.562)
And I think we can prune away, I definitely think people prune away friendships as they age and then add in different ones. And I think when you have a long-term marriage or friendship, you have to think about the history is what got you to this point, and there's a loyalty to that history, but what currently still works and is that still working? And because what matters is the present now. Like it's great, you can recognize that history.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:31.256)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (34:32.373)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:36.504)
Correct.
Teri (34:37.698)
But you certainly can't maintain friendships just out of pure history. I've had some personal experience with that where I'm like, this is just all history-based and this doesn't make sense anymore. That's obviously a lot different when a marriage is involved, but I think the same applies to a marriage. What role does the history of the relationship and the life you've built together, because you go with a marriage from creating and building a life together to maintaining that life.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:46.008)
Yeah.
Teri (35:04.962)
And that's the shift that I think I'm starting to feel is that we've built the life we have now. We've hit those markers. We're still building, right? Like our kids are eight and 11. mean, Tommy will be nine next week, but we're now shifting into more of a maintenance mode instead of building. Like, where do we want to live? Let's, should we try to have babies? You know what I mean? Like what's going on with our careers? Like we've shifted away from that into the next, into the next level.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:05.358)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:10.732)
You've hit all those markers. Yeah.
Vanessa (35:13.241)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (35:26.436)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:30.862)
Well, it does. It shifts from all of that. It's so goal focused when you're younger in your young adulthood. Goal. I mean, you are focused so heavily on meeting certain goals. And as we know, values are not goals and they're more of like like compass, I think is one of the words that's used in ACT and acceptance and commitment therapy that values are the compass and goal is like the spot on the map. So it's like a direction. But if you don't have a sense of the direction it is, it's like, are you growing together or growing apart?
Teri (35:35.172)
Yeah.
Teri (35:41.337)
Hmm.
Teri (35:49.059)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (36:00.931)
Are you moving in the same direction or not? Because some of those spots on the map have been fulfilled. And so figuring out like, yeah, are we using the same compass or not?
Wilhelmina (36:12.671)
Well, and James Hollis talks about that, right? Like he talks about the the let's evaluate our like a mid point evaluation of a marriage and be like, OK, do we feel like we're growing together? Do we feel like we have similar values and we want to kind of like we want the same things and we're willing to work on and change the things that aren't working in our marriage? Or do we feel like we're now heading in different directions?
and it's not working. It's not serving either one of us anymore to stay in this. But he said that takes so much kind of internal awareness and it takes, yes. And, my gosh.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (36:50.67)
Conscious, yeah
Vanessa (36:52.546)
If every couple did that, like literally was like, Hey, let's just have like a conversation, like, you know, like a very, I just can't see it.
Wilhelmina (36:57.972)
Right.
Wilhelmina (37:02.019)
I know. I don't see it happening, but how many more marriages would be like probably better served whether they ended or stayed together for having that conversation?
Teri (37:05.849)
Do you know the-
Vanessa (37:11.545)
Yes.
Teri (37:12.516)
Do you know what one of my, one of my, biggest takeaways I got from that podcast episode, which I echo what everyone else is saying here is it was such a good listen. It's lengthy. So over a couple series of listening sessions, chunk it out. He said, I'm, I'm, what's sort of paraphrasing. Thank you, Paramount Plus. so I'm word retrieval. I'm paraphrasing.
Vanessa (37:14.754)
I completely agree with you completely, 100%.
Vanessa (37:23.364)
So good.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (37:26.446)
Do some chunks, yeah.
Vanessa (37:27.47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (37:33.55)
paraphrasing.
Wilhelmina (37:33.791)
paraphrasing.
Vanessa (37:34.01)
Hair freezing.
Teri (37:40.836)
He said something like, if you really want to dig deep, ask your partner in terms of thinking about what you can work on or assessing yourself, ask your partner or someone who knows you well, if you're not partnered, what do you think I should deal with that I haven't faced and be willing, be willing to hear their response because they, can tell you 10 things that I think Dan should face, right?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (37:59.023)
I love that question.
Teri (38:08.29)
I'm sure he can tell me 10 things that he thinks I should face, am I willing, but be ready to hear it. And, you know, I think it's interesting because I thought about it when I listened to it, I'm like, I should ask Dan that. And my second automatic thought, I was walking the dog was not right now, maybe later, like maybe months from now, years from now, I don't have the bandwidth for that right now.
Vanessa (38:08.399)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:11.701)
But are you ready to hear it? Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:13.706)
Yes.
Vanessa (38:27.524)
But I also feel if you think...
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:31.992)
Right?
Wilhelmina (38:32.159)
But do you know what he'd say? You know what he would say. You know that the reason you don't wanna ask it is because you know yourself a little bit, which means you kind of have an awareness of it, right?
Vanessa (38:32.442)
But I bet you if you think about it, that's what I was about to say, Willem. I bet you, you would know what he would say.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:39.158)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:43.5)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Teri (38:43.744)
Right. I don't think Dan does. I think he, no, maybe he does. Maybe he would. Of what I would say to him. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:46.466)
Yeah, but I was going to say we're having this conversation and we are all very heightened in our awareness of these things. So it's a little there's a little advantage or a disadvantage there one way or the other.
Teri (38:58.477)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:59.711)
So I will say this, and I told you girls at the beginning before we started recording that I was gonna share this. And I was like, don't worry, nothing I've said. I've said all of what I'm about to say to Owen. So it's gonna sound like maybe mean, but I think that not so specifically, Owen and we've been having those conversations in the last couple of years.
Some of the stuff that I've been working on has then kind of forced him to sort of face some things that he hasn't worked on. And so we have been kind of both facing these things. And I have said to him, if we were in a place where I asked you to work on these things and you were like, you married me as I am, and that's, you know, like, I don't have to do that. I'd be like, we would be divorced. Like we would, this, our marriage would end.
If you were still the same person you were at like 19 and 20 and 25 or 26 when we got married, I was like, and you wanted to stay that person, we would not be married. And I've just been very transparent about that in a way that says like, I've so appreciated that he's been willing to do the work and to grow. Because we are both very different people than we were when we married. And if we hadn't...
been intentional about sort of like having those conversations. And we've had a couple rough years where it's like, this, who, who are you? Why did I make this decision? Like, I was making this decision because you were, I was reacting to other internal things for me. And what I thought was calm was actually you just like shutting down and like, and.
Now I know and now he knows and we've worked on it, but it has not been easy and it has definitely been a rough couple years. But the key is we've had the conversation and he has decided and we have both chosen to sort of work on our shit and work on our shit together. Yes, yes.
Vanessa (41:05.314)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's what's hard. Like, you know, what Terry was talking about, like going to your partner and saying, like, what do need to work on? Or even sitting down with your partner saying, like, is this relationship working? I think it's really hard because it's really hard for people to be able to really, like we all kind of deep down know, well, I think, I don't want say we all, I think a lot of people have a good sense of like what their, shit is that they need to work on them, but to be able to actually
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:05.4)
psychological flexibility.
Teri (41:07.17)
It has to be an active choice. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:10.722)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:24.622)
and I'm out.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:28.438)
their stuff.
Vanessa (41:33.019)
be very honest about it, to face it and do something about it is extremely hard. It is extremely hard. And we're saying that and we're psychologists. So imagine someone who's not in the field and doesn't really understand how much that affects every decision you make in your life, everything you do, right? I think it's really challenging for people to be able to do that. It is so hard.
Wilhelmina (41:33.395)
Yep. Face it. Fully face it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:39.437)
Yeah.
Teri (41:41.238)
Yes, very hard.
Wilhelmina (41:41.428)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:45.564)
yeah.
Teri (41:57.988)
Change is so hard, especially for adults. It's so hard to change, to translate the internal experiences you have into actual behavior change and to do that with someone else that you're sharing a life with. And it's not just a romantic relationship at this stage of life. It's a business partnership. It's co-parenting. It's the romantic relationship is like way down here and you have to keep trying to like bring it up at this stage of life at least depending on.
what you prioritize and what you value. There's so much other noise and so many other layers to it. It's truly more of a business partnership than a next phase of a romantic relationship, which is what I think we all think marriages when you're younger, you're like, it's like the next phase of the romance. And it is until you're, you have kids and then, or I mean, you're sharing finances and you're caring for a household together. I mean, it's truly like a business partnership.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (42:44.546)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (42:56.755)
then you're dealing with raising kids, you're dealing with aging parents, you're dealing with your own aging body, like mid-career, like it's amazing, it's like, it's a lot of stuff that you're just.
Teri (43:00.248)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (43:06.496)
I know. It's all it's all happening. I mean, I think there's so many seasons to long term relationships. And I've gone through periods of time where I've said, I think without a doubt, if I met Dan right now and he asked me out, I would go on a date with him, you know, and like, etc. And then I've gone through seasons where I'm like, I we met so young and we married young. I don't know if I still would be with you. Like, I still don't know if.
Vanessa (43:07.448)
Yeah.
Teri (43:33.602)
Like you're like, I really think it ebbs and flows, but I think that would be weird if it didn't. I think to just blindly say, okay, this is my husband. I love him. I married to him. I've never wavered. I like that's weird. And I wouldn't expect him. Yeah. Yes.
Wilhelmina (43:33.845)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:44.846)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:47.317)
I've never wavered. Never wavered.
Vanessa (43:49.209)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:51.885)
You're either not being honest or you're not being aware, which could be, listen, we've said before that people that have a lack of psychological awareness in some ways are much happier than most people because they just kind of stay right here. I don't know. Well, happy might not be the word, but yeah, like they just kind of hang out. but yeah, no, I think you're right, Terry.
Vanessa (43:53.262)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, one of the two, yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:53.459)
Right.
Teri (44:01.764)
Ignorance, ignorance is but ignorance is bliss. Yeah.
Vanessa (44:04.718)
Yeah, it can be a plus. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, think there's just, you know, adding on to that, there's just so much stuff going on in your life. Like if you've decided to have kids, and that was one of the things he brings up, he's like, you really need to have a partner who believes in true reciprocity if you are both working, like if you both have a career, because if they don't, like,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:21.954)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (44:22.324)
Hmm
Teri (44:23.225)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (44:28.413)
resentment just builds. Yeah.
Vanessa (44:29.082)
So much resentment. Like if you are constantly working on someone else's goal and you're never like it's so much easier to like Give up something if it's a goal you're working on together, but if you're just giving giving to some goal, that's not yours Like it just starts to wear on you and so you add into that like, know Terry you kind of touched on this like all the things that we're experiencing changes like at this age just like Physically like and I don't just mean like the wrinkles in the gray hair. That can be a big thing, right?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:30.702)
100%.
Vanessa (44:58.542)
but even just forgetting things, right? Like don't get up too fast because if I get up too fast, my actual body and like just all these things, like hormone, I mean, there's just so many things going on. It's really hard to then be like, okay, now what do I need to give to you in this moment? Because you can't make that choice with your kid. You have to give them what they need, right?
Teri (45:02.19)
Sober.
Teri (45:23.416)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (45:26.082)
And so then you're like trying to do you and then now you have this person that you're trying to like fill their cup to, right? And it just, it can become a lot. And so I can see why people struggle so much at this like phase in life because there's just, there's a lot going on.
Teri (45:37.974)
Mm-hmm. It all makes sense. All these, yeah, all these things that women do that when we were younger and you would hear about women in their 40s and 50s or even 60s changing careers, getting divorced from a seemingly happy marriage, moving across the country, going on a solo trip. You know, what was that movie that was really popular when we were younger? Yeah. E, Pray Love. And you're sort of like, OK, midlife crisis lady, like whatever. But I get it all.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (45:58.375)
eat, love.
Vanessa (45:59.033)
Be free love, yes.
Wilhelmina (45:59.402)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (46:04.679)
And now I'm like, I get it all. I get it all. I get it all.
Teri (46:07.224)
We get it all, I mean.
Vanessa (46:08.558)
Well, I was reading this thing and said, instead of thinking of it as midlife crisis, you should think of it as a midlife recalibration. And I really thought that was. That's, I think that's what we're all doing.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:14.114)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:14.207)
Yes, I like that. I like that.
Teri (46:15.236)
I like that. Right.
Wilhelmina (46:19.113)
Well, because I, last year, and I was just saying this to Owen this weekend, I said, last year, I was definitely going through this place where I kept thinking of like, I'm never gonna have that again. I'm never gonna have this or that, right? Like I was thinking like romantic stuff even like a first kiss, right? Like a first kiss when you like really like that person and you're just like super, and I was like.
Teri (46:33.892)
trying to go back. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:46.935)
I mean, guess if all goes well, right? Like all goes well, there's no like, like, I won't ever have that again. Or your first, think of all the firsts or the new things that are exciting of your like young years. And you're sort of like, that's all behind me now. Like all of that's behind me. And there is sort of a sadness in that of like, that's just it. Like that's.
Vanessa (47:09.498)
Well, and also the things that you never got to do. mean, I don't think we really talked like we've talked about the choices that we made, but then there's also the choice, the things that we never got to do. And I know that there's this like, well, of course you can still do it. And yes, while I think that there are things that you could probably still do, I think there are things that once you get to this age, like you really can't do anymore. know, like they think you just, because it would be weird or silly or like for a thousand reasons. Right? So I do genuinely think that there are things that once you get to a certain point in life, like you're
Teri (47:10.904)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (47:13.45)
I mean.
Teri (47:18.318)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (47:27.465)
Right. Yes. Yes. I've.
Teri (47:39.374)
Like the road, right? Like the road never traveled. I mean, I would love to live on the East Coast, New England, and you know, like on the coast. And that's never gonna happen. I just, I could, but I don't wanna be an old, but I don't wanna be an old lady living there. I wanna be, right? Yeah. Like I want to like have little kids in Halloween costumes and trick or treat and live in New, you know what I mean? In the fall, like.
Vanessa (47:39.511)
You never did them and you're not.
Wilhelmina (47:46.441)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (47:52.538)
You don't know that, I mean you could retire and go there. See that's one of those things that you could.
Got it.
Wilhelmina (47:59.044)
Hahaha!
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:07.659)
Mwahaha
Teri (48:08.628)
It's a whole existence that will never happen. It's like that movie La La Land. Like if anyone has ever had, it's such a good movie. mean, Tread.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:13.9)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (48:14.226)
I just rewatched literally in the last two weeks.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:17.314)
Yeah. it's so good. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (48:17.464)
I've never watched that. I know, I know. remember, Wilmina, you told me you like, you really need to watch that. Like, yes, I know, I know. And for that reason, I have not. That's why it happened.
Wilhelmina (48:23.453)
You do really need to watch that.
Teri (48:27.428)
I mean, it really if you've ever had and if you've ever had any type of other romantic relationship besides the person you've ended up with, it will stir up a lot. And it's so well done. But it really is like the path that could. So I think it's different. think there's a life you. Yeah, there's a life you lived. There's the path that just is never going to like it's just that ship is sailed. It's not going to happen like Vanessa was saying. But then there's that middle ground. And that's where people it gets really murky.
Wilhelmina (48:27.668)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:27.733)
Ah-ha!
Wilhelmina (48:38.173)
It will.
Wilhelmina (48:44.649)
The path that could have been, the path that could have been.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:51.586)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (48:56.004)
where it's the path that could have been because what if you had not like, what if you hadn't married somebody else? What if you had gone somewhere else for grad school? What if you had chosen a different college major? What if your parents chose to raise you in a different city that, know, on and on and on? What if you decide not to have kids? What if you decide to stop at one kid? What if you decide to have five kids? Like, you know, it just never, I don't know. There's so many could-ofs, versions of your life.
Wilhelmina (48:56.533)
Yeah, it does.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:10.935)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (49:21.173)
Well, I think that, you know, you guys know that I love Minneapolis, Minnesota, the Twin Cities. And I always thought I would go back there, always. Like, just sort of was like that. Like you guys all were like, yeah, you're gonna go back there. And I remember when we bought this house and I just found out I was pregnant with Griffin and we closed on the house. within a week, I was like, I think I made a mistake. Like, I think we should have moved.
Teri (49:35.961)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:36.578)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (49:48.322)
I remember this.
Wilhelmina (49:49.694)
And I was like almost in like a full, obviously it was hormonal too, but I was like, I remember like almost having like, it wasn't a panic attack, but it probably was close to that of like, I think we made a mistake. should, this was the, this was it. This was the point. And.
Vanessa (49:53.824)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:54.156)
Hahaha!
Teri (49:55.076)
I'm sorry.
Wilhelmina (50:08.255)
I mean, I do think it was. I do think it was the point. And I've stayed here. And I do look back at that and think that was it.
Teri (50:18.03)
that that's when you could have moved.
Do you think a-
Wilhelmina (50:22.493)
And I will forever, yeah, I always like, if there's like a version where you're like multiverse, where you're living different like versions of your life, like there is a version I am living in Minnesota, I'm living in the Twin Cities. Like, I feel that so strongly. And I remember Owen said, let's make a five year plan. And that made me feel better. Because I was like, well, Maddie will be still young, Griffin will just be starting elementary, we could easily move and it wouldn't be that disruptive to their lives.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (50:29.066)
Yeah
Teri (50:29.495)
Yeah.
Teri (50:34.35)
Aww.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (50:36.28)
Mm.
Vanessa (50:50.767)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (50:51.259)
And we hit that and flew past it because it was like, I mean, COVID and all that. And now I'm like, I can't disrupt their lives at this point. Like, Maddie's in middle school. I'm not going to do. I could, but I'm not going to. And so it is that path, that path that didn't get taken. It does. We were looking at houses. We were literally looking at houses.
Teri (50:55.51)
Life just takes off.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (50:57.39)
Yeah.
Teri (51:05.774)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (51:11.534)
But it feels within reach because you can picture it, you know it. Yeah, exactly. It feels close.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:18.35)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (51:22.261)
James Hollis had a thing that he said that when you get to this midpoint and do this evaluation, and he kind of said, keep in mind, you look for feelings of like flatness in your life. Like if you're feeling sort of like, I've gotten everything, but everything feels a little flat. It doesn't feel like the way I thought it would. Kind of pay attention to that. If you feel like you're living a life of shoulds. And I liked what he said was,
At some point you may realize you're just not living authentically for you and for your life and for what you want. And he said, because to live authentic authentically is not a life of comfort. He's like, authenticity is often a disruptor. He's like, if you are living your authentic self, you're not conforming to societal expectations or the expectations of your family. You're living for you. And sometimes that can go right along with what
Vanessa (52:06.806)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (52:20.649)
the shoulds, but it often doesn't consistently go with the shoulds. And so if you can get comfortable being uncomfortable, you can actually start to move in the direction of living more authentically for you. But you have to do those things together. Because if you're not comfortable with with like anxiety or kind of a lot of doing something that, yes.
Vanessa (52:37.53)
you
Teri (52:45.506)
Unfamiliarity.
Wilhelmina (52:50.759)
Sorry.
Vanessa (52:50.818)
So I was just going to say, so I mentioned at the beginning that we were going to be talking about the happiness U curve. And so we focused a lot on the of the bottom of the U, which is your 40s. But the good news is that the research shows that as you get out of that phase, it actually, your happiness goes up and it increases even more so than your 20s and 30s. we're going to end on a good note, a high note.
Wilhelmina (53:01.717)
You
Teri (53:02.19)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (53:15.118)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (53:15.157)
So you're saying that in August I will hit rock bottom at 47, but there is hope. There's hope.
Vanessa (53:18.842)
when you turn 47. But there is hope because it's, it'll, it's gonna, your happiness will go up there and it'll be, you'll be even more happier than you were in your 20s and 30s when you had less responsibilities. yes. That's.
Teri (53:19.672)
Yep, when you turn 47 this year, yeah.
Well, you're the f-
Teri (53:29.348)
And you'll be our guinea pig since you turned 47 this year, Wilhelmina. And my friends in their fifties, I have a few friends in their early fifties and they seem more, and they'll verbalize that as well, seem definitely more content than they did in their late forties. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (53:31.957)
Yes.
Vanessa (53:44.612)
I mean, the research backs it up. mean, this research backs it up that in fact, when you get to your like mid 50s and then even like into your 60s that that happiness increases partly to do with your change in your responsibilities.
Teri (53:55.672)
I also think you just don't feel as obligated to other people anymore. I think you're just sort of like, you really can hone in. Yeah, and be like, I'm gonna do what works for me. If that aligns with what you're gonna do, great, let's be together. Let's hang out. If not, then I wish you the best.
Wilhelmina (54:00.691)
Yes. Authenticity, you don't care. You're like, hmm.
Vanessa (54:03.342)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (54:06.485)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Right. Right.
Vanessa (54:12.783)
Yep. Well, good talk, ladies. Well, thank you for joining us today on the Shrinkdown. Please join us next time.
Wilhelmina (54:15.924)
Yes.