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We chat with Larry, who presented at the 2022 Healing Together conference. We share with each other about our grief over losing therapists, and talk about what healing looks like after. We share about the impact of grief on our sobriety recovery.
Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Welcome to the System Speak podcast. If you would like to support our efforts at sharing our story, finding stigma about dissociative identity disorder, and educating the community and the world about trauma and dissociation, Please go to our website at www.systemspeak.org where there is a button for donations and you can offer a one time donation to support the podcast or become an ongoing subscriber. You can also support us on Patreon for early access to updates and what's unfolding for us. Simply search for Emma Sunshine on Patreon. We appreciate the support, the positive feedback, and you sharing our podcast with others.
Speaker 1:We are also super excited to announce the release of our new online community, a safe place for listeners to connect about the podcast. It feels like any other social media platform where you can share, respond, join groups, and even attend events with us. Go to our webpage at www.systemsbeak.org to join the community. We're excited to see you there!
Speaker 2:Larry Ruehl is a visual artist and author of Breaking the Rules, a memoir which explores the process of recovering from childhood sexual abuse, addiction, and complex trauma. He has spoken at colleges and retreats to increase awareness of sexual abuse, is a member of the RAIN speakers bureau, and an annual presenter at the Healing Together conference. Today, he shares his story publicly to help others shed the shame and stigma associated with sexual abuse and addiction. His website is breakingtherulesruhls.com. You can also follow his art on Instagram at l Ruehl Studio.
Speaker 2:Welcome our friend, Larry Ruehl.
Speaker 3:It's nice to see you for a minute. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm good. Thank you. I so appreciate you coming on and talking with us. People just loved what you shared and it resonated with so many and just your story, way and also talking openly about the therapeutic relationship I think was so healing for so many. There are so many of us especially with DID only because treatment is so long term who have either negative experiences or really positive experiences and I feel like we often don't get to talk about that relationship either way.
Speaker 2:It was just very powerful thank you so much
Speaker 3:thank you
Speaker 2:excellent I think it will be great I just have tried really hard to keep the podcast very organic and so yes So that's one thing I was excited about interviewing you or talking with you because I felt that even in your presentation. So just for listener for us to get started, for listeners to get oriented to the sound of your voice, if you wanna go ahead and introduce yourself however you want to.
Speaker 3:My name is Larry Rule, and I'm an artist and a writer. I live in the Hudson Valley in Upstate New York, and I'm in the process of of trying to move to Portugal, a big life change. I'm also a survivor of complex trauma childhood sexual abuse, and there is no doubt that I fall onto the DID spectrum, and feel very honored to be part of this incredible community. And my work now and everything I do now is with the hopes of helping others to feel heard and to know that they're not alone in their healing journey.
Speaker 2:We just heard you at Healing Together recently, a couple months ago now, but it was fantastic and there was such a huge response. What was that like for you?
Speaker 3:It's funny. The presentation that I gave at Healing Together was really focused about the therapeutic relationship. But unfortunately, the lead up in the conversation, as you know, was about the loss, the sudden and abrupt loss of my therapist after working with her for sixteen years. So to be totally honest and transparent, I was literally not sure that I was up for it and going to feel prepared to share that intimate relationship and that story in front of everyone. Jamie, who started the conference, really urged me from the beginning, saying that she thought that the story would resonate and that people needed to hear it.
Speaker 3:Emotionally, I was a little bit, concerned and but I, I called upon my therapist to guide me from wherever she is now, and, it was a very moving experience to to not only talk about the commitment that she and I had made to one another over the course of my trauma recovery, but also what happens when that relationship comes to a sudden end. And in this case, it was eight weeks from the time that she was diagnosed until the time she died. And we had just entered a new phase of our work. So it was a devastating moment and really took a lot of work to remain grounded as you can imagine, Emma. I mean, know.
Speaker 2:I cannot imagine. I had a therapist that passed away from COVID but we had only just It was nothing like sixteen years. I, I have had experiences of therapists that I loved where something went wrong in therapy, boundaries or transference issues that were not resolved or attended to or something where I then grieved that therapist but they didn't die and leaving was the right choice. Had therapists where I sort of outgrew what they had capacity to help with. There's so many different leavings but to have something that was good and to have such a sudden loss, that's a big deal in a trauma survivor.
Speaker 3:Yes. And, you know, it's incredible how it took me a few it took me a few weeks to to understand and to really allow it to soak in that because of the work that I had done with my therapist in in an emotional detachment from my mother, that my therapist in so many ways by what we had worked on and done had given me the tools to navigate her own death. So, you know, it was a it was a really tricky time because I when I started to understand that and when I started to really look at that, I really there was part of me that resented it, that just thought, no. I don't I don't wanna use what you taught me for the loss of you. Sorry.
Speaker 3:I'm getting a little choked up even now. You know, it was it was a real moment because it literally went from we had our last session and we should you know, my my therapist was so on time. She was meticulous. She was just you know, I think in sixteen years of working together, she maybe canceled a session at short notice maybe three times. And so I received a text saying that she would have to reschedule our session.
Speaker 3:It was the day before. And at first, I thought, uh-oh, maybe something happened to her dog. And then by Saturday, I had a very deep suspicion that something else was going on, and I I sent her a rare text. We were not texting. We did not have a texting relationship where our boundaries were very much in place, and she responded.
Speaker 3:And I I just said that I I wanted her to know that I was thinking about her, and when she responded with I know you are, dear Larry, I knew that something was very wrong, and the next day she sent out the first email saying that she had been diagnosed with stage four cancer. And that was it. You know, there was no opportunity for closure. She had stage four pancreatic cancer. There was no time for anything.
Speaker 3:There wasn't another session. There was there was nothing. And I think that that is going to stay with me forever, that loss. And you you used a really good word and something that we have to talk about openly or I have to acknowledge openly too with transference. And, you know, at first I remember thinking like, you know, the loss of of Linda, my therapist felt, like, the most significant loss I will face other than my partner of twenty three years.
Speaker 3:And truthfully, it's like I Linda and I, anytime that transference came up, we worked it through. This this was something different. This was the loss of someone so deeply meaningful, not only to my recovery process, but to my life. She she allowed me to continue to live by helping me to work through very significant and difficult periods of suicidal ideation and fantasy. So, you know, it was it was definitely in my in my trauma recovery the hardest thing I've had to face.
Speaker 3:I think Linda would disagree with me saying that. I think she would say that facing my childhood was harder, but I will tell you that since this is raw and still relatively new, it's not yet a year, this does feel, even harder some days.
Speaker 2:My experience was so completely different in therapy loss, but in that parallel grief, I have said the same thing that the loss of that therapist was much worse than what I went through in childhood, And completely different circumstances, so I don't at all mean to speak to or over your experience. Just sharing in my own, have felt that same thing, that this was way harder than anything else. Yours your therapist was quote quote good right the air quotes of good was not a behavioral betrayal and there's still betrayal in the absence even though also you were equipped to handle it and it's just so much. Just to come up for air a little bit, I wanted to backtrack and how, what is your story of building that relationship that was good? And the reason I want, I'm asking is because we have on the podcast recently been talking through some very difficult therapy experiences and the response has been huge that this is such a common thing.
Speaker 2:But I also think that's part of why good therapists are so valuable because those relationships that are built when they are healthy and good and helpful and effective and all the things make such a difference. So what made Linda so good?
Speaker 3:Oh, that is such a great question. You have moved me to tears. You know, I when I first started with Linda, I I went in and she asked why I was there. And, you know, I very much wanted to control how the sessions were gonna go. You know, I I had I had not yet fully recalled memory, but the flashbacks I had had been experiencing and the panic attacks I had been experiencing were informing me that something was very dark in my past.
Speaker 3:And when I first went in, she asked me why I was there, and I actually said I wanted to learn to be a better child to my parents. I almost just slipped and said a better parent to my child. So there in that Freudian slip, it gives you a sense of the dynamics. I was sexually abused by my father and my mother, of course, not only knew but was was mentally ill, undiagnosed, and extremely volatile. So so I think that from the very beginning, Linda sensed and saw something in me that I wasn't ready to face and to see.
Speaker 3:And her motto right from the beginning of slower is faster is something that infuriated me and frustrated me. I wanted to do things quickly, and she slowed me down. Every session, was just a slow going process, and there was never any rush. And I think one of the things that built our trust over so many years is that Linda rarely asked me any specific questions with regards to what happened. She allowed that process to happen organically and for me to speak when I was ready.
Speaker 3:And anytime I challenged her back on that, she always said, when you are ready, I know it will come. And and I think that that alone built a history of trust. The other thing, the other important piece here is that Linda's boundaries, I said this before, but Linda's boundaries were very clear and set. There was not a lot of room to understand much about her private life or who she was, and even when I needed to feel safe with her, she chose carefully what to share with me. She didn't totally block it out, but she chose very carefully what she shared.
Speaker 3:Over sixteen years together, whenever I was really struggling or having a difficult time with a specific piece of my story or my experience, she'd often share a personal detail that would allow that trust to go deeper, and I was so grateful for that balance. But overall, and I'd say her boundaries remained in check throughout the history of our working together, and that really set a solid foundation. And even in the end, you know, those some of those boundaries were extremely frustrating to me. It's like how how could I not have this opportunity to say goodbye my way? You know, I often have said that I didn't have the opportunity to have closure.
Speaker 3:Well, of course, I've had closure, but I've had to create the closure on my own. I've had to identify the kind of closure I need as a survivor and as someone who just experienced this loss and deal with it that way. The fact that there was a closure on my terms, you know, that's for me to work through. But I'd say that, you know, I have heard stories, horrifying stories of therapists with clients. And, you know, I I wish this were different, but I know it is difficult to find to find the kind of therapist that I had with Linda.
Speaker 3:I I do know that that's that it's hard, and and I think it makes this loss even more impactful and more significant for me.
Speaker 2:It is such a valuable thing. It's interesting to me that she has already become memorialized in a way not just because of your talk but because of the nature of the relationship that you shared and described and honored and celebrated with us at Healing Together, Linda has become slain now for a good therapist. And I just love that this has happened in the community. So the podcast has a lot of listeners all over the world and one time we had a guest on who was talking about reenactments. She was a clinician and so she didn't want to use any client names or anything so for all of the examples that she gave she called all of them Kelly.
Speaker 2:And so it became a thing to refer to previous therapists like when you have a series of bad ones right? Like to call all of your therapists, refer to all of them as Kelly. So for about two years in the community people will say well my previous Kelly da da da da da or one time I had a Kelly who da da da da da but what I have loved is how you have transformed or she together you have transformed that cultural experience so that now I hear people saying well, that happened to me once, but now I have a Linda.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I just think that is so beautiful. You
Speaker 3:know, I I wasn't gonna say this, and and, again, I can say it without breaking any confidentiality because there are no names attached. But one of the most incredible, incredible experiences was after that talk of healing together. I can't tell you how many people approached me arm in arm and said, this is my Linda. And I was so moved that people were there with their therapist and introducing them that way. And in the emails that I received afterwards, I mean, couldn't believe some of the responses and some of the things that people were saying.
Speaker 3:And and, you know, I mean, what what better gift? And I know I know Linda would be thrilled by this. And and, yes, I mean, it's just it's just incredible. Now now I'm smiling, so I'm very grateful for for what you just shared. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. Therapy can be so brutal. Therapy is hard enough anyway. But when you're doing therapy for trauma and dissociation, like it's just so much work and it's exhausting and your brain, your brain literally does not have capacity. Like, you're building capacity actively to handle what it has already said.
Speaker 2:I can't handle this right now. Like, it's just exhausting work. It's so so hard. And so when something goes wrong in therapy or when there is trauma in therapy itself. It just makes it that much harder.
Speaker 2:And when you're looking for a therapist and you have to interview so often we have to interview if we have the privilege of choice. But I mean, I'm so aware that that's a level of privilege. But we have to interview and interview and interview and try so many different therapists to find someone who can actually help with trauma and dissociation. But when you get a Linda, yeah, it just feels different. And, yes, the work is still hard, but because there is safety in the context in which you're doing it, there's also some kind of relief relaxation that comes with that even though the work is still hard.
Speaker 3:I I couldn't agree more. And you you know, you just I was just thinking back to some of those sessions, some of the the hardest sessions, and Linda created this way. You know, we had we shared a love of cooking. Right? So at the end of particularly bad sessions that were incredibly triggering and stirring up a lot of memory, there's a lot to process.
Speaker 3:You know, just her way to transition me back into the real world was to gently turn the conversation to food. And it was, you know, it was such a titrating tool that we use that I came to rely on. And there were other times that if I had had enough, if I had just had enough, then I could say, did you check out this new Middle Eastern cookbook that came out? And and she would know that I had had enough. And, you know, that was part of that was also part of the trust that we established and our ability to navigate what was coming up.
Speaker 3:She also knew when to push, you know, she knew and I so deeply respect that instinct of hers to know when it was okay to push me a little bit further. And, certainly around specifically around DID, in the last, year of working together is when without even specifically naming it, we were doing parts work and it was very hard. I mean, was hard work. And there were times that I would just have to say, you know, let's talk about a movie or a recipe and ease out that way. But that was part of the gift of working with Linda was, you know, knowing that that freedom to do that was always, always there.
Speaker 2:What was that like for you learning about trauma and dissociation?
Speaker 3:I so deeply honor both Linda and the prescribing psychiatrist who worked in tandem with Linda. And I don't know if your other listeners have had this, opportunity. I'm sure some have, but, you know, I gave the official permission for Linda to speak openly to the psychiatrist and vice versa. So there it felt like I had this team in place where they were working on my behalf, and they both were of the belief of not throwing diagnoses at me. It was years before I heard PTSD or complex trauma or general anxiety disorder or dissociative identity disorder because their belief was that the work and the process was going to be the same.
Speaker 3:And that is true. I continue to see the psychiatrist who I saw, especially in the beginning, and she still concurs and that's her way of practicing. So, you know, in terms of dealing with dissociative identity disorder and trauma and getting into those topics, I mean, was it was really, really hard and very, very painful. And I would say I couldn't safely say that it was probably ten years into working together that I fully before I fully started to understand what was attached to some of those diagnoses and just how much they applied to me. And when I started in more on understanding dissociative behavior, I was really able to look back and to see how in many ways it had given me many tools to navigate what I was going through and what I was recalling and what I was dealing with in terms of my family of origin and and to understand it better.
Speaker 3:And and especially in the last year of of working with Linda, there was some real opportunity to go in deeper and it was work that I will forever cherish.
Speaker 2:That's so powerful, the part about not pathologizing the experience and a response to trauma. We just released a workbook and in that we call it dissociative identity response instead of disorder. Yes. It's just there's something about normalizing the process of what our brains are doing instead of thinking like if I could just do therapy better or if I could do it right or if I weren't failing life. Our brains are doing exactly what they're supposed to do and there's something empowering about recognizing that and I also love that you address the continuum.
Speaker 2:I know that my personal lived experience is with DID and so we talk about that a lot and the podcast is about that but also there are other dissociative disorders and OSDD and just quote regular dissociative disorders and yesterday I was reading a website about quiet borderlines and this dissociative process on the continuum, we all share that common experience and treatment does follow a similar process in lots of ways. And so I just, it's so much more humanizing to look at the and so much more inclusive, whether it's of parts or of peers who are also struggling to to recognize that, I think. What was it Yes. What was it like to talk about these kinds of issues with your partner?
Speaker 3:What a what a great question. You know, I this is something I don't talk about as much, but there I would say the majority of the work that I did with Linda, it was like, if I was slow to reveal things to her until I felt safe enough, I was even slower to reveal things to my partner, Jeff. I in addition to feeling safe, I was also very protective of reactions, and I was concerned. There were there were and especially in the beginning, I was concerned that he would think less of me or that he would judge me or find me disgusting. So so I've I've I shared details with him sporadically and almost, I'll say this as is sort of in terms of what it the whole spectrum, but as necessary.
Speaker 3:You know, when and there were times that Linda actually had to ask for him to come in because if I was suicidal, she needed to know that he knew the truth. So so sharing those details were it was it was definitely a process and hard. You know, now I think that talking about dissociation and talking about dissociative identity disorder. It's funny. I also don't like using disorder at all.
Speaker 3:But, in talking about it with him, it actually has helped. You know? It's it's been we have a very open, wonderful relationship. We've been together for twenty three years. He has he has stayed with me through through all of this, and and I too stand at his side through things that he has gone through.
Speaker 3:So so we have a very healthy balance, but talking specifically more about DID has been a personal conversation, and it has taken me a few years to reveal to him the extent of of what that has been for me. And I think that many survivors can relate that that's what worked for me and that's what felt safest to me. I have to share those details when I feel absolutely ready to deal with whatever comes.
Speaker 2:That has been definitely our experience as well with our partner of very carefully, slowly, but also somehow trying so hard to connect and share, but him not understanding what we're trying to share because we're not saying it explicitly and so it took the same thing. It took several years for him to really understand what we were saying and a therapist actually saying okay this and this and this and this are examples of DID and what DID is. And then by then at that point, like we were so scared he was just gonna leave. Like, is the end of it here. That appointment I thought we are not going to survive this appointment and once he finally understood what it was and what we were talking about then he was like oh well that totally makes sense I just didn't know it had a name.
Speaker 2:It's like why were we working so hard to try to be careful if you're just cool with it? Thanks a lot. But then at the same time we are not like a super overt system where we just introduce ourselves all the time to him. Like that that does not happen. There is very much a covert presentation not not in deceptive but in the same thing like you were sharing that it's just, there's so much internally going on and because safety has been so difficult to find and trust is so hard even inside, anything that we share reveals something else about others too, you know?
Speaker 2:And so it's a really difficult dance. How do you that happens on the podcast too. Like people thinking they know so much about me or us, but there's just very few of us that participate in this. So there's there's such a in some ways, some of my listeners know me better than I know myself, and in other ways, they don't know me at all. How do you handle that being so public with art and speaking and writing?
Speaker 3:That's a that's a great question. It also brings me more to the present because I to be totally honest, you know, with the exception of, sharing my artwork on Instagram and my website and having my story out, you know, I'm I'm finding myself at this stage, like, wanting to, healthily isolate more, and isolate is probably the wrong choice of words, maybe hibernate or become, you know, just spend more time alone. And I think that that's one of the lessons in the loss of Linda is getting more comfortable, especially in dissociation, getting more comfortable with solitude and the concept of solitude. So I've been doing some of that work for this last year, really spending some time alone and seeing how that feels. But in terms of, like, dealing with, what comes up publicly, you know you know you know how this goes sometimes.
Speaker 3:Sometimes you're met with some really challenging views on on how people perceive you or what they think or maybe sometimes they think they know better. And sometimes that can be really challenging. And and now I find instead of instead of reacting or or questioning myself or going in, I I'm finding myself going quiet a little bit more, and that's been really helpful. Especially, you know, and I know that I know that I'm not alone in this, and I know that people will understand, but especially in the loss of my therapist because what a solitary grief that's been. You know, there are few people who would understand the depths of that relationship.
Speaker 3:So I chose very few people to share that with and while that was happening because I knew that very few people would get it and understand it. So that sort of led me into this more solitary place that I'm finding to feel very comforting and very healing. So that's that's kind of I hope that answered your question, but that's kind of how I've been dealing with some of the perceptions of of me and and what I'm doing. It's funny. Also, I will share with you that, you know, some of my artwork is is really speaks to the community of of of survivors and trauma and DID, and then there are the other people, you know, other people in the world who who may not who just don't get it.
Speaker 3:And I always just sink into this knowing place of, yeah. You know what? My people in my community, they understand. I don't even have to say anything, and they see it and they know. So so that's a really wonderful thing too.
Speaker 2:I have had, again, such a parallel experience where after sharing particularly vulnerable things and even even with good boundaries or with consent of insiders and that balance, Jamie Merritt talks about the balance between vulnerability with boundaries and transparency but structure of self and and all of these things and I I have noticed that same tendency to withdraw after. In a I think initially there was some vulnerability hangover of learning how to share what or when I was okay sharing something but now it's more like it just takes so many spoons to be that authentic yes in the presence of another much less an audience yes That after that I really just need rest and recovery. So I am learning that and then the other thing that you talked about about being alone and people understanding or not, there is something about losing a therapist whether it's because of circumstances like what you went through or the therapist I lost with COVID or, when something goes wrong with therapists and a therapist you love you can't see anymore for whatever reason. When you lose a therapist for any reason really, there is such a disenfranchised grief because of that very thing you spoke about, about no one else understands the depths of this experience or the the specifics even of that experience, much less the impact it has internally.
Speaker 3:Yes. I mean, you just spoke directly to my heart with that. You really did. It was, you know, all I could do was to find ways to keep Linda close, to my heart, especially in those early days. And I as much as I know I should meditate should, I don't like using should, but as much as I would benefit from a more consistent meditation practice, that's all I could do.
Speaker 3:And I chose to I chose specific songs to sit with every day, and it was my time with Linda to honor the fact that she was dying and, to just sit with that energy. And when the day came, when the email came that she had, died, then it became a new form, a different form of grief of knowing that that it was final, but that peace was final. Because you can imagine it was I sat with and there was some comfort of knowing she was still alive even though we were not in contact. I I made the choice to to thank her and to say what I needed to say in some handwritten letters that I mailed to her, and that was, again, something she taught me to do. And then when the finality of of her death became real, that was another that was another grief process that was completely different.
Speaker 3:The one thing I I have to say is that the psychiatrist that I mentioned who, you know, prescribed me in the beginning and was consistent in my in my process for a number of years, I had gotten off of most of the medications and was down to just one as needed antianxiety medication, but she stepped in. She knew that she expected some calls from Linda's clients, and we had set up a session, and she made it clear that she would not become my therapist, but that she was there for me, for medication and to check-in as I needed to navigate this. And without missing a beat, we got on our first Zoom call. It was still Zoom at the time. And she went down a checklist asking about my parts.
Speaker 3:And it was the first time she ever used that language, and she actually said, where are the dark parts? Are they are they coming up? And and it was a very moving experience and one that caused me to to just understand the enormity of this entire trajectory of of trauma recovery work and the relationship with Linda and then sitting there in facing the loss and the grief of of losing Linda. But I just wanna jump back and just touch on something that you said earlier about speaking publicly and about what that meant. So at the conference, at the Healing Together conference, I was up there in front of that audience talking about everything that we've talked about today and grief and the loss, and I underestimated the amount of recovery time that would be required for me in the aftermath of doing that.
Speaker 3:And it was a real lesson I had to learn that I could not have anticipated. But I will tell you honestly and truthfully, it took me a few weeks to get my chemistry back to feeling somewhat level, to get myself grounded. And for the first four or five days after that conference, I just wept. You know? And I haven't said this to anyone.
Speaker 3:I haven't told Jamie who started the conference. I I've just kind of kept it close, but it was a very, very challenging time right after, and I I know from my heart that you understand what what I mean.
Speaker 2:It really is something that is so tender. Like, it is not something that is wrong or bad or oh that was too much and I shouldn't have done it. It's not that kind of feeling at all. It's literally like my body catching up to what it took to do that. Right.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about what you just shared about your psychiatrist asking those questions for the first time.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I'm also a clinician. I don't know if you know that. I'm also a clinician. And what that tells me is how well, I mean, she's doing you said she was at the right pronoun?
Speaker 3:Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2:I apologize. You said that she had that information that was tending to you, but also with the good boundaries that she's not your new Linda. There that Right. That this was still about medication and coping, but that she was doing such a good job in that moment of caring well for you, even with the good boundaries, like talking about that explicitly, which is so important with, trauma survivors. But also it tells me what a good job Linda did preparing her to be able to do And so I'm just thinking of you in those weeks with that song, whatever your song was.
Speaker 2:Don't ever tell anybody what your song was. But
Speaker 3:I won't.
Speaker 2:I won't. I had a song too, so I know. But, in those weeks, in those weeks with your song and feeling already in an anticipatory grief kind of way her absence. And yet even in that moment, she was actually spending that time caring for you. Yes.
Speaker 2:And there's just something very powerful about that. That's very special.
Speaker 3:There really is. And, you know, I mean, it was there were some real gifts that that came out of of all of it. And I I think, you know, I'm I'm bringing us full circle, and one of the things that people have come to me with, and this is this is a challenging hard thing, and I and I and I very much keep my reaction in check as much as I can. But, you know, people said early on and have continued to say, have you found a new therapist? And I have to tell you that that I definitely, you know, react to that a little bit.
Speaker 3:I think I think, well, a, I'm so not ready. And b, I just I wish you wouldn't ask me that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Seriously. Seriously. I I I had a very deep therapist loss under completely different circumstances and it took me two years to start trying to find another therapist and it took me eight months of interviewing therapists before I found one where it's like, okay, I think this is a thing. I think this is working.
Speaker 2:And then it took six months before I would even talk. Yes. Because it's it's not going to be the same. I couldn't go into it thinking it was going to be the same, and I had to deal with that trauma first.
Speaker 3:Like, I
Speaker 2:was like, I need some EMDR for trauma therapy specifically before I even do anything else. You know? So so whatever your process is, I love that you're respecting it. I don't mean to to even dig into that right now. It's not anybody's business, but I I just I feel that of
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:I'm doing my best here. Okay? In the ways I can. I'm honoring what was good about everything in therapy by trying to still make meaning in the world around me. The podcast is happening.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. It got dark for a season, but it was a dark season, and we have to honor that.
Speaker 3:Yes. One of the things that the psychiatrist said to me when I when I started to see her and I check-in with her about once a month and it's been amazing. She and Linda were colleagues for many, many years, and she has her own experience with loss. And again, as boundaried as Linda was, the psychiatrist is even more rigid in her boundaries. She is she is amazing.
Speaker 3:And but she was the one that handed me this early gift, and she looked at me and she said, you need a year before you even begin to think of anything. Give yourself this gift of a year to just be. And it really sunk in. It really resonated, and I thought, yes. I thought, yes.
Speaker 3:She's she is right, and this is what I need. So, you know, I it's it's really hard. I I just hesitated because I wasn't sure if I felt prepared to share this, but I will because I'm so grateful to you for this conversation. But next Thursday marks a year since my last session with Linda. And and I'm finding, like, the approach of that day very moving and I'm very emotional, and I'm just trying to find my way to honor the day.
Speaker 3:And so it does feel like an entire full circle moment is happening. And, you know, it's it's really profound, and it's there there are parts of me that are still deeply grieving, and there are parts of me that feel feel grounded in the fact that I stayed strong. And I what I'm really saying when I say that is I didn't mention this early on, but I'm an alcoholic and an addict as well in recovery. And through this year, I did not relapse. And that has has said a lot to me and and my parts in terms of what I've had to rally in order to to stay focused on what I've needed to and to really honor my my work with Linda.
Speaker 2:It's sacred, really. It's so sacred. And I know for me and my experience, the loss of my therapist coincided with the pandemic starting. And so by by default I was very isolated other than being surrounded by children but that's a different story. I was I was very isolated and it was, like I said earlier, it was absolutely the worst experience of my life and I I don't say that lightly.
Speaker 2:As as someone as a trauma survivor, you understand I don't say that lightly. And at the same time at the same time, that time alone, I wish I had known that that's what was happening. In my situation, the boundaries were not good, and so things were blurry. And I thought I was waiting, but I wasn't waiting and and trying to figure out things like that. I wish I had more pieces in place, but there's nothing I could do about that.
Speaker 2:And now in hindsight, what I know I have learned is that that experience, as awful as it was, I learned for the first time to feel my feelings to tolerate them. I could not do that before. And I am also in recovery, ten and a half years. Wow.
Speaker 3:And my
Speaker 2:partner said, well if you can make it through a pandemic, homeschooling these six kids with disabilities and the loss of your therapist, like you're sober for good now. And I was like, you don't understand buddy.
Speaker 3:Right, I know, I know.
Speaker 2:Like, because if I mean, if there was ever a time I could have justified it, this would be now, but that doesn't mean I'm in the Like, I you can't get cranky about it. That's not how it works. Is there anything else that you want to share before I let you go or anything that you feel was unsaid or that you needed to express?
Speaker 3:Let me just think about that for a minute. I think I think that one of the one of the things that's harder to talk about, and you just really helped me by by sharing what you did and and feeling our feelings. It's like I I never ever anticipated or anticipated feeling grief this way. And part of that came from Linda herself because she very much made it known to me that she had no plans of retiring and that our work would continue, as long as I wanted it to. And, you know, you know, that's that's tricky.
Speaker 3:You know, that was that was and and it was something that I really believe. So it felt like the carpet got pulled out. But I think that the thing that I was thinking when you were talking about that is that, yes, I this was a grief that knocked me flat, and I didn't drink or use, and I have continued to create, and I continued to show up, and I went to the conference and I honored our work in the process of trauma recovery. And I feel like, not to sound too out there spiritually, but I do feel like Linda's work with me is ongoing and continues. And that is really what I try to focus on because that's the gift in all of this.
Speaker 3:There are certainly some difficult moments where parts wanna protest and be like, no, you know, this isn't this isn't fair. But I really try to make a very strong effort to stay in the positive moments of healing and recovery and finding ways, especially creative ways to continue to heal. Because I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this healing process is is my and many of our it's our life work. It doesn't there is no graduation date. It will continue for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 3:I used to fear that and maybe resent it a little bit, and now I actually take great comfort in it, of knowing that healing will continue to deepen and change and morph into new things.
Speaker 2:I think that that is so beautiful. I have felt times where something was happening, maybe even that was good, where I really had this urge to connect with my previous Kelly, as we say, and she's still alive. It's not like Linda that we lost. We, the whole community has lost Linda now. A procreation of grief.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:But but, and and so she's not there, but but in the same feeling of that therapist would be so stinking proud of me if she could see this right now. That therapist be laughing so hard with me right now because she's the only one who understood the significance of this or those kinds of feelings that come up. Also it feels like in some ways for me, kind of like you said spiritually, it feels to me, and I wanna be careful here because it could be twisted really easy or and I don't want it at all to be harmful to anyone. In some ways for me it parallels with my parents, my biological parents. They are both past, both of my parents have passed away.
Speaker 2:My father died of cancer and my mother was killed by a drunk driver. And so that was a very sudden grief. And even those relationships were difficult, there are times, and that difficult, like the understatement of the year, right? But there are times where I think if they were who they were without all of their own trauma or addictions or anything that got in the way that caused the trauma that happened to me, like trying to salvage both sides, trying to hold both at once, right? Seeing the gray.
Speaker 2:If that person who they were underneath all of this, like maybe it's true for them too. Not in, I don't mean in a false hope or in a trying to make up kinds of ways, just in an acceptance of a parent and a child and what that is supposed to look like or what that could look like or what that can look like. And somehow in a weird weird way finding a lot of peace in that even though everything else was hard, and I don't at all mean to deny or minimize things.
Speaker 3:You know, you just said you you just settled so much. Right? And I didn't mention this, but my both of my parents are still alive. And there was a period where I really questioned, like, how is it that my mother is still alive and Linda has died? And but what that turned into and I really noticed the anger that came up.
Speaker 3:What that turned into was deeper forgiveness for my for my parents. And I don't know how that happened. I truly don't. I'm very grateful that I have no relationship with my parents, and I'm very grateful that I I don't wish them any suffering. It's I feel like through this process of grief with Linda, I've come to a better acceptance of of the fact that my parents are alive and may they not suffer.
Speaker 3:And may I not have to ever see either of them again.
Speaker 2:I think holding all of those layers is absolutely okay and so valid. And I think forgiveness is one of those, like not one of the things that I never expected we would talk about today, right? But I think that it's an example of things that get so, so twisted because forgiveness is not about saying what happened was okay. It's not saying this doesn't impact me anymore. It's about saying I'm not gonna carry your stuff.
Speaker 3:Exactly right.
Speaker 2:Your stuff is just your stuff. I've I've
Speaker 3:no work on my own. Exactly. Yeah. And and to acknowledge that they have their own relationship with whatever beliefs they have, and they have their own god of their understanding or whatever that might be, and and that's for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. What what a powerful conversation. Thank you so much for spending time with me today.
Speaker 3:I would spend time with you anytime. Oh, that's so kind. Anytime. Please. I'm so you just made my day.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm I'm weeping in the best possible way and I'm incredibly grateful to you. So thank you.
Speaker 2:I I am so grateful. I'm I'm my hands are together.
Speaker 3:With you.
Speaker 2:I am so grateful. I I loved your presentation. It brought so much healing to me. I, the vulnerability and the authenticity and the topic of what you shared was at first when you started, I was like, mm-mm, I am not ready for this because I am coming out of this therapy trauma, But it was so, so beautiful and helped me reclaim some of what was good and I feel brought some balance. And I also, I love Jamie.
Speaker 2:There's not a lot of us who have DID who are holding events and podcasts and things for the community and so we get to know each other as we collaborate on different things and I love her and I trusted her and so I very skeptically trusted you very cautiously.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:And then you started sharing, and I saw your heart. And I just I love you so much. I'm so grateful. And
Speaker 3:Thank you. It's very mutual. Thank you so much. And I look forward to talking to you again anytime.
Speaker 2:Sure. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon and join us in our new online community by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned, it's that connection brings healing.
Speaker 1:We look forward to connecting with you!