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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Chris Bruno
Welcome back guys to the Restorative Man podcast. This is Chris Bruno and I am excited to be here today with my buddy Jesse French. Jesse, good to see you man. Good to see you too, Chris. Yeah. Jesse, I just got back from California, which is where two of my three adult children now live.
Jesse French
Glad to be with you.
Chris Bruno
And we have been empty nested for a year and a half now. Our youngest is now a sophomore. How does she get to be a freaking sophomore in college? Yeah. So she is a sophomore. My middle daughter lives and works in Washington, DC. So she's on the other end of the country and has been living and working there for a bit. Graduated college and now has a job, which is awesome. She's off the payroll.
And then our oldest, he's now 25 and he lived for three years in Texas and now lives also in Los Angeles, California, working there. So we just went.
Jesse French
all across the country.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Well, at one point we had somebody in LA, we had somebody in Texas and we had somebody in DC. So it was literally like stretched across different time zones. So now it was all four time zones at one point. We had LA, you know, Pacific mountains, central Eastern. Now we just have Pacific mountain Eastern as a family. So anyway, side note. So we were out there in California just to, for parents weekend, for our youngest, you know, college parents weekend.
Jesse French
Hang on. I'm going to out you right now because I'm going to out you. just so you know, the way that Chris Bruno does parents weekend, like for his kids at college, you know, parents weekend could conjure the images of, you know, so we're on campus and the university has these things to do, you know, I don't know, like brunches and snacks. And I actually have no idea what those things are, but
Chris Bruno
This is not heard there's
Jesse French
Yeah, would be the fun parts. And so I asked Chris before he left on the trip, I said, so his parents, can, are you going to do, you know, all the university stuff that they have for parents? Are you going to take advantage? And he looks at me he goes, no, we did that once for my daughter, Ella. And we said, this is stupid. We're going to do our own thing. So I'm just outing you and.
Chris Bruno
I welcome the out. Right. Because here's the thing. You guys go if you go to a parents weekend for one of your children and you will have plenty to go for all of your children. When you go to parents weekend, you're going to see your child. You're not going to listen to the dean and the advisor and then sit around and mingle with other parents and do the whole like, so where do you live and where do you and what does your child study and what does your child study? I don't.
Like, I came here to see my child not hear about yours. that makes sense. Thank Thank you. So no, we do not go to parents weekend. We use parents weekend as an excuse to go see our child. And then we swipe them away from campus and go do whatever we want to do in the surrounding area. So that's Yeah. And.
Jesse French
makes a lot of sense.
Excites. Good move.
Chris Bruno
So she's, it's parents weekend for her. youngest lives in LA, our oldest lives in LA, and then our DC daughter, she flew in also to, that all five of us could be together for the weekend. And it was so much fun. It was so great to be able to be with them. Cause you know, when, when we're usually together, they come here, they come home, they come to our house, but to be in a totally new place and explore a totally new area and.
Our son had just moved there and so we got to see his new place and not just like the place where he lives, but the surrounding area and all that kind of stuff. It was really, really fun to do. So that was my weekend this last weekend. job. It was really good.
Jesse French
Good job.
Saying, forget you, Dean. I'm going to go hang out with my kids. Good job. Deans need to hear that more often.
Chris Bruno
I'm sure you're an important person. And right now the most important person is my daughter. okay. Yes. And Jesse, you're in a little bit different season of fathering with your kids than I am. Like all of your children at home and none of my children are home. And so we're in two different spots as dads. And here's one of the things that happened this weekend was that I recognized that however much
Like two out of the three, you know, I joke, two out of the three are off the payroll. They're on doing their own thing. They're working, living, have their own places and they still need fathering. It's just different. It's a different approach to that fathering. It's a different way. Cause I don't know about you, but there's something inside of me that often is like, I need a parent right now. And I'm, I'm in my fifties, right? So I need a parent.
And I don't have a parent to go to. And I would love to even think about together today, like, what does it mean for us to be adults who still want parents? What is it we're looking for? What is it we are wanting? I still have, you know, my mom passed away a couple of years ago, my dad is still around, but I don't go to him for that parenting. So what is it that I'm wanting?
Jesse French
Yes.
Chris Bruno
Yes.
And it seems like what I am wanting now in my fifties is similar to what my children are still wanting from me in their mid to late twenties.
Jesse French
Yes. I'm excited to wonder and hear some thoughts.
Chris Bruno
Okay. So the thoughts that I have are this. I feel like there are three kind of main seasons, three postures, three categories, whatever you want to put the, you know, word to put there that we have as dads of what our kids need from us. The first season is the season that you're in. And now you're, slowly starting to get out of this season. Okay. You're right there on the edge. Yeah.
So the first season I think is where dad is out front.
The second season is where dad is behind. And the third season is where dad is next to.
Jesse French
I like how you did that. Like they're all proximal things. Good job Chris.
Chris Bruno
There you
And I think it doesn't take a, you know, a lot of thinking to even imagine what it looks like for dad to be out front, dad to be behind dad to be next to. So the main thing I would say is that when dad is out front, you're like your kids need, you are the goose and you've got your, your Goslings that are following you around, right? They got to know where to go and you've got to lead them.
And you've got to give them direction and you got to say, we're going to go here. We're going to do this. Here's how we engage, you know, your friends. We're giving them a lot of that leadership and guidance. Right. And that's, that's a lot of what we do at restoration project too, is giving that like intentional thought to the journey that we're leading our children on. I am walking my son up the trail of manhood and he needs to follow me into that manhood or I am walking.
my daughter into her womanhood and I'm walk, like I'm giving guidance on what that means. So there is something about like dad's first on the trail and the kids are following. So the thing is where I say you're right on the, you're right on the edge is that as the kids hit that kind of mid teenager stage where they're increasing in independence,
They have a bigger sense of their own selves. They can literally do more things for themselves and manage their own lives at least to a degree. At least we're hoping. That movement from dad being out front, now you would think he would come next to them, but really he needs to go behind them because he's got to play the sweeper. He's the one that's like, okay, I'm going to catch.
your failures, I am big enough and strong enough to catch the places where you fail and catch you when you fail as part of the journey of growing you and teaching you and guiding you into who you're becoming. They have to be the one to lead up the trail and trip and fall and have you there to pick them up.
Jesse French
Yes. I'm like, Well, I, I've heard you talk about it before and I mean, it, feels like this total paradigm shift of you saying this is the time to be able to let them lead, to engage, to process the failures. It is not, you did not say continue to remain upfront. So they are insulated from failure and insulated from disappointment and pain. Like that is.
Chris Bruno
in your face. Yeah.
Jesse French
That is not the role. The role is to process that, to digest that, to allow them to lead and to move into those spaces. And that maybe because I'm right there, that does feel like the, you sure?
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Yeah, there is a level of risk for sure. There is a significant level of risk as a dad because you're wondering, I mean, you can see the failure around the corner that they can't see. For sure. And the challenge for us dads is at some point they're going to have to go around that corner and face that failure themselves. And here's the thing is that I would so rather have my kids
fail small while they're in my home, then fail big when they're not. And so that's the catching, that's the sweeping, that's the, and I'm here and you're gonna be okay. And I have the capacity to be able to pick you up and talk you through it and train you through it and help you anticipate the next time and all those kinds of things so that we're training our children how to navigate life, not protecting them from it. And I've said that before.
That's this middle ground that you're embarking on as you've got middle school and high school and like that kind of stuff happening in your home. And the hard part, Jesse, is they are gonna push the boundaries. They are gonna like curfew is meant to be broken. Sorry. News flash. And the only way that they're gonna know
Jesse French
Slash.
Chris Bruno
the edge of themselves where it gets to be like they can't press any further is for them to find the edge of themselves. Yeah. To feel the sting of some of their failures. And that is actually going to, what's going to prevent them is their experience of the pain versus you telling them about the pain and the consequences.
Jesse French
Yeah, which-
so much
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
And here's the thing like, yeah, our, and the hard part is that each one of our kids has walked through that and our youngest is still in that. She's just, you know, she's a sophomore. She is living on her own and she's just, you know, now for the last year and a half learning how to live on a budget and learning how to make sure that she's maintaining her sleep schedule while and maintaining her eating habits well and maintaining, you know, her going to work out time and like all the kinds of things.
that she's gotta manage. So she's still in that. The other two are outside of that and beyond that now because they failed before.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. I think some of what, what I would just say quickly, cause I want, I want to get to the next, the next posture, but I, some of what we've talked about in the past, which feels really central in this space, right? Is I think it can be so easy as dads to yes, want to like mitigate the failure, both out of care for our kids of this perspective of like, I don't want them to hurt. And so I'm going to insulate them from that. And there's also a piece of that of.
My child's failure can be a reflection on me. And so there's not enough groundedness in the father to say, my kids can fail and I'm okay. Who I am is not at stake and is not threatened by their failure. Right? Like that's some of, you know, yes, the side of it for our kids to be able to learn from that, but it also does require the dads to take this posture of coming behind to say, look, there will be failure and I can remain grounded in who I am.
And it is... that is not... not threatened.
Chris Bruno
Yes. And all of this is probably the hardest part. Yeah. And I just want to name to Jesse that that hardest part is likely because failure was not an acceptable space for us when we were boys. That there wasn't an opportunity for us to have both love and failure simultaneously. So that being loved is dependent on my success.
or being loved is dependent on my not failing, however way you want to put it. And so there is something that when my child fails, then the reflection is that I failed. Well, then I'm at risk of losing love again.
Jesse French
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That image of love and failure being able to exist at the same time. Coexist. That is, yes. That is something to ponder.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Which is exactly what we want our children to learn that even when they fail, they do not fall out of my love. Right. Outside of the realm of my love. So we're wanting to have that for them. Can we have that for ourselves as well? That's good. So the third posture that I learned a lot about this weekend was that my kids still want my parenting. They still want my fathering.
And they don't want me to fix their failures and they don't want me leading, but they actually want me next to them. They want me shotgun. And I saw this with my son who had just bought a new car and he doesn't want me to drive his car. Literally. Right. And show me his new car.
Jesse French
Really sit in.
Chris Bruno
And that part felt so much like I am being invited into a space of, know, tell me all about this car. Tell me all about what it was like. How did you go about buying it? What, you know, and the beautiful thing is that he invited me into the journey of looking at the car. didn't physically, I mean, he's in California, I'm in Colorado. So I didn't get to physically go with him to look at it or inspect it or anything like that.
He just invited me into, here's the car that I'm looking at. What should I be thinking about? How does the process of buying a car go? This was his first car he's ever bought by himself. So he wanted that. But then for me to sit shotgun and be like, and here's my car, dad. It was, he needed me to be next to him.
Jesse French
What do you think that being next to him offered him? Like, what did that give him? What did that convey to him that he was after?
Chris Bruno
⁓ I think it conveys a sense of his own success, a sense of my being proud of him, a sense of friendship and brotherhood and adult to adult peer relationship. And the sense that even though I am obviously his father and older than him, we can be in a different kind of relationship.
to sit together and be two men together.
Jesse French
I love that image, but that's possible.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, and it was a beautiful experience for me. I would say it was a healing experience for me. And I don't know what it felt like for him, but what it felt like for me was like, ⁓ this feels so good in me because this is what I have longed for. This is the kind of parenting that I still long for as a 52 year old and I have never had. So there's something about this, like this man that I respect also respects me.
Right? This father that I respect, the father also respects the son. Same thing for my daughter. It's not just a male thing, but you know, she's, she flew in from DC and there was a sense of like, I'm just going to sit and play cards with her and be friends with her. And at some point we were sitting at my son's house and whatever, and she snuggled up to me on the couch, you know, and she, she just needed to be held for a few minutes.
by her dad. So she got small in that moment and then immediately like was back to the woman that she is. Yeah. And I feel like that space is that next to that we get to be next to each other. We get to wonder about how many taxes are we going to pay this year. And we get to wonder about what's happening in the administration. And we get to wonder what, you know, we get to collectively as the adults, you know, what are we going to do? What do we all want to do for the holidays?
It's not me determining that anymore. So there's that like collaborative collective movement now of being with them as adults. And there is still this sense of like, and they want to know that I respect them. Yeah. That's the next two.
Jesse French
Chris, do think some of the, maybe an internal narrative or, or one of the thoughts that can play or does play for you is something on the lines of like, look, my kids are out of the house. They are launched. They are setting off and charting their own course. I don't really have anything to offer. They don't really need me anymore. Like my work here is done. And I say that not from a like relief standpoint, but more from like kind of the internal judgment or criticism space of like, ⁓ I don't have anything.
Chris Bruno
I
Jesse French
Nothing else is needed. what you're saying actually instead is no, absolutely still have needs and desire for me to be with them, to be next to them. I have so much that I can and need to give them.
Chris Bruno
parenting never ends. It just changes. And the intensity of my parenting around for them right now is far less than the first stage when they were, you know, little kids in my house. but they still want dad. They still want mom. And I'm thinking, I'm listening to what we're saying through the years of potentially some of the people, you know, the listeners right now. And that is like, well, my son doesn't want me.
My daughter doesn't want me and she might be five or 15 or 25. Like I, like they don't want me. And the curiosity that I have is as a dad, then what kinds of postures would you like to then bring to them that may be different from the postures you already have? Are you bringing your respect? Are you bringing your awe? Are you bringing your
curiosity about their lives. Are you bringing a sense of wonder and all that? And I bet that when that starts to happen or happens more, that something inside of them will also begin to blossom and bloom and turn towards the light that you're offering.
Jesse French
Yeah. In the example you give with your son around his new car, like that interaction looks very, very differently if you jump in and you say, you know, consumer reports said that this car was actually a better deal and you should have thought about this when you did the financing. Like if you were in the out front type of mode, right? Of like, man, I know what's best and I need to be able to engage from that posture. Like I'm sure your son.
It's one whiff of that and it's like, okay. Yeah.
Chris Bruno
No, thank And the unfortunate reality is that that is the kind of engagement that I have received from my father. It's evaluative of my choices, not honoring of the choices. And then there's the reality too, Jesse, that there are adults, children who have crises or have moments where their capacity for their own containment is lost and they do need someone strong to come in
and hold and rescue, fix, be, stand, whatever it is. you know, intervention wise or, you know, we got to get you the help that you need or you need to get away from this bad marriage or like there's things that happen that they do need that stronger dad to step in. But the stepping in of that stronger dad has to be on the back of the kind of like awe and respect and honor relationship.
to begin with. Otherwise, you're just moving in as a tyrant and steamrolling them in a place where they have not yet invited you.
Jesse French
Chris, what kinds of things are happening or need to be happening internally for dads to be able to make these shifts in postures with their kids? Like in their own lives, what are some of the ways of being the things that they, yeah, that they're engaging internally that allows these shifts in posture?
Chris Bruno
So I have not thought about these terms before this moment. I say that because the analogy, the metaphors might break down, but I would say what needs to happen internally for when the dad is leading is that he needs to flex. Okay. When the dad steps behind in those middle teenage years, younger teenager or whatever that middle ground where he's behind, he needs to clench. Okay.
Jesse French
Hot off the press!
Chris Bruno
And then the third posture is he needs to release. So there's something about like, okay, I'm gonna have to flex. I'm gonna have to take the stand when we're leading our kids up the, you know, I'm gonna carry the heaviest pack while we're going down the trail and give the direction. This is where we're gonna stop. This is where we're gonna camp. And I'm using that as a metaphor, both literally and metaphorically, right? This is the direction that we're gonna go. And y'all are gonna come along and I'll make sure that you're okay and you have water.
Okay. Good idea. Okay. So there's that. The clench is like, I'm going to have to hold onto my own self as I face the risk of letting them try some things to step into those things. And I'm going to have to just clench a little bit and be like, is it going to be okay? Are they going to come back?
I don't like that. And kind of just hold responsibility for my clenching and not make them responsible for my clenching. Okay. Because they've got to go see, they've got to try, they've got to test.
Jesse French
Yeah. So that's directed towards yourself in terms of like yourself rather than outward to your kid.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. You know, and even when back in the first one, when you're flexing, it's like, we're not complaining that we're carrying the heaviest pack. Right. You all are such a burden, right? Like, ⁓ I can't barter. You know, look at me. I'm the best dad in the world because I am suffering the most of all of us on this trail. No, that's not what we want to do. I got to hold my flex. I got to hold my clench and I got to hold my release. That's my responsibility. And then the release is like, I get to be
one adult among many. I get to show up, I get to ask some questions, I get to offer some thoughts, I get to play the cards, I get to sit shotgun, I get to do whatever, and I'm releasing. All three of them require our responsiveness, our attentiveness, our attunement to our kids in a way that is like, what is happening for you, what is happening for you, what is happening for you? So, I don't know, does that answer your question?
Jesse French
No, that is helpful. Like that offers some good language of, of what is needed kind of from me for me. Right. Like, In order for me to engage in this way with my children, there's the awareness of what, how I need to be able to be within and inform itself. It's good. Thank you. Thanks for the.
Chris Bruno
Well, it's a fun weekend. Here's the thing. I'll end with this, Jesse. I mentioned that I played cards. I don't play cards. Just like I don't do road trips. I don't play cards. Okay. A couple of years ago, our son, played this game, this card game with his friends. He brought it into our family. And now like every time we're together with the family, we play this one card game. And...
I swear it has been 500 games, right? 500 hands that we have played over the course through the last couple, like a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. Two, two times I have won the hand. Hey, you didn't get set out. Two over 500, what is that? That's not a good record, so.
Jesse French
Nope, no goose egg! Good job!
That's not an amazing percentage and good job for still playing the game. Good job.
Chris Bruno
you. Yes.
Jesse French
That is gosh, all the math people that I know that listen to this are gonna like roll over in their grave, but it's this is like point four percent not four percent point four percent I think is two out of five hundred so
Chris Bruno
Wait, wait, 0.04 % or 0.04?
Jesse French
No, no, it's not. It's not 4%. It is point oh 4%, I think.
Chris Bruno
Okay. So, yes. So thank you. Thank you. I take the trophy. you. Talk to you later. Jesse.
Jesse French
Good job, Chris.
Always. Adios!