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We break down the answers to some of the most common questions we get as divorce attorneys from our website in our second installment of Super-Lawyer FAQs.
Show Notes
In this episode
- I've been separated for a week can I get on tinder?
- We just got married on a week ago, it was a mistake, can we get an annulment?
- I've been living in NC for a while now and I need to change my custody order, but it is from another state. How do I do it?
- I think my spouse is hiding income during the divorce, how do I find out?
- There is no custody order in place but the other parent is with-holding the child from me. What can I do?
- I've been separated for a bazillion years and I want to file but I don't know where my ex is now?
- If I'm willing to separate and leave the home, should I take the kids with me?
- If I choose to leave the house do I loose the rights to my house?
- My divorce is final, but we didn't do anything with the house we jointly own. Do I still get my equity from the home?
- My soon-to-be-ex wants the divorce, they should have to pay for it, can we make them?
- Is cryptocurrency considered martial property?
- Do you have experience working with narcissistic behaviors?
- Have we seen an uptick in divorces since COVID-19?
Help your friends going through a divorce go from victim to victorious and bitter to better.
If you like The Ex-it Strategy, visit our website to subscribe for free, and you'll never miss an episode. And if you like the Ex-it Strategy, We'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two).
If you like The Ex-it Strategy, visit our website to subscribe for free, and you'll never miss an episode. And if you like the Ex-it Strategy, We'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two).
Creators & Guests
Host
Guest
What is Ex-it Strategy?
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson:
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Stevenson. I'm here with
Jennifer Bordeaux: my fabulous law partner, Sarah.
Sarah J. Hink: He Hello everyone. We're back. I'm back. I was gone for a minute. . But you're back. I'm back.
Jennifer Bordeaux: We are
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: the partners at New Direction Family Law. We have our sidekick. Jen Bordeaux
Jennifer Bordeaux: here today. Hello everyone. Yes. So what are we
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: chatting about today, Jennifer?
We're
Jennifer Bordeaux: oh, government name. We .
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Do you know that? I just recently heard that. I had no idea what that
Jennifer Bordeaux: meant. Does somebody use your government name? Uhhuh? Yeah. That's how anytime somebody says Jennifer instead of gin. That's what I think of now, but we're gonna talk about all kinds of things. So it's been a little while since we've done some frequently asked questions and it's actually right on point because the last time we did this, we said frequently asked questions with super lawyers, and you guys as super lawyers Announcements just came out today, so congratulations.
Very excited. So we're gonna do some more Super lawyers FAQs for listeners. Some different, more relevant topics that we just see come in all the time through our website form or when people reach out. Or with cases that you guys have had that we see some patterns and common questions. So they're in nor no particular order.
Nec not necessarily related. And we're gonna go rapid fire. All right. We'll give Sarah minute. . Yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: My brain. It's slow, but it's gonna get there. We'll get there. Yeah. The listeners, I was out, had a baby real quick. No, I'm back it.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Back. CS on 21 in college.
Sarah J. Hink: She's good. Yes. Yes. My brain is still catching
Jennifer Bordeaux: up.
Me baby. Yeah, we're still ready for her to come to the office. I know. I can't wait. Can't wait. All right, this one recently came up a question that an attorney was sharing with the crew . I've been separated for a week and I get on Tinder now.
You can,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: we would advise
Sarah J. Hink: against it. Yeah. Be careful. It's, there's a lot of other circumstances taken into consideration on how you're gonna move forward with dating apps and all that. If you haven't done anything during the marriage and you're separated, technically you're, you can go date someone, but there's other things to consider.
What else should they consider E. one if
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you have children might be a good idea to take a breath. Yep. Sit out a little while. Cuz your children are going through a lot if you've separated. So that's where you want your focus to be and not on starting a new relationship per se. I have very much, and I think we have this in a lot of our documents and things, is to just, when you're on, just don't do social media for a little while.
Cause as they say, , whatever you send, you want to think about that being read out loud, loud in court. And it can be twisted and turned. And so it's always better just to be
Jennifer Bordeaux: careful and sit quietly
Sarah J. Hink: for a little while. Yeah. And take a minute whether you have kids or not, just for your mental health.
be a little patient. I understand there's relationships where people feel like they haven't been in one for a long time, even though they've lived together. So it's understandable. And Tinder, I guess that's the quick and easy one. So maybe you're not looking for a relationship.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. And because and if you have a custody schedule and the kids. The other parent, then if you wanna date or go out, then that's when you would probably wanna take advantage to do that. Not when you have your
Jennifer Bordeaux: kids with you.
Sarah J. Hink: Another thing to consider would be financials. So if you might be on the hook for spousal support, we're gonna look all through everyone's financials and we'll see any charges to like match.com.
And if you're going on dates you know, are you saying you can't pay alimony to your wife, but you can go drop a hundred dollars dinner on a dinner exactly every other day for your girlfriend? There's just a lot of things to consider. Correct. So before you take that step, definitely talk to your attorney.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yes. Absolutely.
Jennifer Bordeaux: For sure. And MASH is not cheap.
Sarah J. Hink: No. It's not.
Jennifer Bordeaux: just as another expense looking into your financial
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. Whenever I see, yeah, exactly. Whenever I see like opposing party is, which dating site they're on, I like, think about how serious they are, like during the marriage and they paid for match, like every month for that long.
This guy was out the door that Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Pretty. and add something into
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: that.
It's not really, yeah, it's a little off subject, but I've had a couple of cases like this, that let's say you found someone on Tinder and y'all moved in together and this person is paying a lot of your expenses on a monthly basis. You're in there asking for alimony and child support. Anything that somebody pays for you on your behalf can be considered as a gift and can be added to your income.
It's a little, and I don't think people really, it's not something you would think of that's logical, but that's
Sarah J. Hink: how it works here. It's kinda if you, your employer pays for certain things like you're your car or your cell phone. That's considered it too. Cause it's not an expense that you have
Jennifer Bordeaux: to go cover.
Right, Exactly. and it makes a big difference. I had a case recently. , it was getting, he was living in a parent's house and in the rent we found out would've been like $950 for that house, and they added $950 into the supporting spouse's income. And it made a big difference. Yeah. Oops. Oops.
Oops. . Sorry. I digress, but no. I think to that point too, you're saying it, and when we say tender, It means any dating apps. Okay. We're not discriminating here. If you, in that same scenario, if you met somebody on Tinder and you're living with them for spousal support purposes, a lot of times, isn't it?
If you're cohabitating with someone, is that gonna affect spousal support for the de
Sarah J. Hink: dependent spouse? Spouse?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. It would, It would. But for the supporting spouse, if he moves them with somebody or she, you still gotta pay the other party. Yeah.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Okay. So again, just talk to your attorney,
Yeah, I'll your attorney. All right. Next up. We get this one more frequently than I'd like to admit, but we just got married, I don't know, we'll say a week, a month. Somebody just reached out, they got married on December 31st, and they're saying it was a mistake. Can I get an annulment?
Sarah J. Hink: it's not a time
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: thing.
No, it doesn't matter. You could be married 10 years and as
Sarah J. Hink: aspirin and Noman. Yeah. So it, it goes way beyond that. So they would have to call and have a consultation with us. They would,
Jennifer Bordeaux: absolutely. I think
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: that's a lot of factors that are involved in that. But time is not one of
Jennifer Bordeaux: them. No.
Sarah J. Hink: People say they made a mistake, like you said, 10 years down the road.
Oh, it was the worst mistake of my life. Like they don't get an enrollment either. I know. And Just in that, cuz I know laws obviously vary from state to state. So if, let's say somebody did like a Elvis Chapel wedding in Vegas they pulled a Britney Spears and they wanted an annulment. Does it matter that they got married in Vegas?
Jennifer Bordeaux: No.
Sarah J. Hink: It took somewhere they live. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Bordeaux: I didn't know if that affected it or not. Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: But it said things like I can't remember all of them in the statute, but one is I potency, if you can't consummate your marriage or never have, or you're, there's a mental illness or something like that.
So those are some of the factors.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yes so you think mistake doesn't qualify as ?
Sarah J. Hink: No, I wouldn't.
Jennifer Bordeaux: It'd be outta bit, we would not have a
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: business if mistakes qualified. , .
Jennifer Bordeaux: again, in that scenario, just spiral off to another question. If, let's say this person that got married on New Year's Eve of this past year if it doesn't qualify for an annulment, then do they have to stay separated for that year and a day still?
Yeah. Yeah, they get
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: divorced. Absolutely.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Separated longer than you were married. A lot longer than you were married. happens.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. You wouldn't have any other issues probably cuz you weren't married, but a day maybe or a month. There wouldn't be any property alimony, maybe some custody perhaps, but nothing else other than that.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Okay. I've been living in North Carolina with my kids for a while now, and I need to change my custody order, but the original custody order is from another state. What do I do?
Sarah J. Hink: We have to see you know, how long have you lived in North Carolina?
Where does the other parent live?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: the first step is no matter how long have you been here, go ahead and register. It's called registered in your Order in North Carolina, and that allows you to enforce it here. So let's say that, let's say dad lives in the other state, came and got the kids and didn't return them.
You gotta have the order registered here to enforce it here and have a judge if it's not like an emergency, which I'm probably. . But if you don't register it here, then you gotta go back to the original state to litigate anything unless
Sarah J. Hink: it's an emergency and make sure you have a copy of your order.
We correct people, come see us and talk to us and there is an order, but they don't have the order. And that's always hard for us. Then give them advice based on that. you know, if you move to a new state, you should register it. And register for enforcement. You can register for modification, right?
However, there are circumstances where you don't even have to register it to modify it. Talk to an attorney about all the facts of your case and what's gonna be the most cost effective, right? Because there's also instances where you might have to go back to the original state,
Jennifer Bordeaux: right?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: let's make sure you have permission to move. I mean, there could be some, I mean, that may open a big can of worms because you've move. , but there's nothing. Then you messed up the visitation or the custody schedule and the other parent may Yeah. Start coming after you for
Jennifer Bordeaux: something that's another topic.
Exactly.
Sarah J. Hink: We're recording today. Exactly. So if that, if you wanna listen to that episode to check that one out too.
Jennifer Bordeaux: with that. if somebody came to us and they were, wanted to register the order, can the other parent.
Fight that the order being registered here you can, yeah, you can. And then the court would have a hearing on it, determine whether it could be or not
Sarah J. Hink: be. Sometimes in circumstances we have the judge in North Carolina have to talk to a judge in a different state and have a conference, which can really prolong the situation because you have to look at two judges' schedules, and get in touch with a judge in New York and a judge in North Carolina, and somehow get them to talk together, the attorney's present. It can be a big mess. It can be mean. Yeah. talk to an attorney before you move. That's what I would say. Sure. Have your ducks in a row and try to make it as seamless as possible.
Even if you think that dad or mom is a deadbeat and not gonna do much about it, guess what they sometimes do. Do.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yep. Yep. Just for spite. Yep. Yeah. we've recently had somebody reach out to us, and it's not necessarily for registration of an order, but it is looking. The person that has relocated but they haven't been there for six months yet. I think they still have some properties here. And so where they're at now, they've spoken with local attorneys, but they also wanna speak with North Carolina attorneys to find out where it might be most beneficial.
Sure. To do it, to file for things and address things. Again, just always talk to your attorney, . Okay. Moving right along to the next question. We've recently, if you guys, if listeners have not checked out other episodes, our most recent one prior to this was with a guest named David Amos and we talked about business valuations and looking at income and financial statements.
He's gonna be coming in and doing a lunch and learn with us soon as well. Because we do face this a lot, so if somebody comes to you in the consultation says, I think my spouse is hiding income, how do I find out if they.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: First up is one, if you've got, you need to get some financial documents.
You need to get bank statements, credit card statements, that sort of thing, and start perusing through those. And then you can see money moving in and out. You may not know where it's coming from, but then you can see at least a part of an account. Right statement or something like that. You can do discovery, you can depose that sort of thing.
It really is
Jennifer Bordeaux: just calling through right, financial documents and doing a forensic analysis
Sarah J. Hink: of those documents. And it depends on what stage you are in the process, right? If you're still living together and you haven't separated you're gonna have to watch the mail, right? Sign into the accounts online since you're living together and just poke around and try.
I tell people to do that too before they leave. Absolutely. Go get it. Especially the spouse that hasn't been involved.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Find what you find. Make copies. Put 'em back where you found them and you keep your copies somewhere else in a safe deposit box or with your friend
Sarah J. Hink: or somewhere else. Yeah.
Yeah. And if you're like afraid to open the mail for whatever reason, it might A picture of it. Yeah. Take a picture of it. Okay. There's a mail from Fidelity. I know there might be a Fidelity account,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: So we could send out a subpoena. We don't necessarily need to know the account number and that.
Yeah. Now a lot of times people come in and they think that, but they're. Isn't anything right, but to be prudent and check your boxes, at least get some financial documents, for sure.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yep. Now, let's say in the situation you're trying to get financial statements, or we'll say bank statements. If your name, even though you're married, maybe the account was open during the marriage, but your name is not on your spouse's account.
Can you still get those records?
Sarah J. Hink: With a subpoena
Jennifer Bordeaux: you can't. With a subpoena, you
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: can't . No, I could. I couldn't just walk in and say, Hey, I want copies of my husband's bank account. If I'm not on it, they're not gonna give that to you. Figured as much, which then. Leads into talking about subpoena power.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Somebody comes into the consultation, there's no litigation started. Do, does litigation have to be active for you to get a subpoena for something? A
Sarah J. Hink: subpoena? Yes. Yes,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And if you file litigation in most counties now there are requirements of what you are to turn over. In local rules without having to issue discovery or issues
Jennifer Bordeaux: subpoenas.
Sarah J. Hink: I ordered the court so there's already an ordered, right? As soon as you're filing, you are under those court orders, especi wait six months of bank statements and credit cards
and income, all of that. And if you don't do it, then you get in trouble. By the Judge . Correct. And you might have to pay some attorney fees.
That's right. Yes.
Jennifer Bordeaux: I just, I thought about that cuz we do have folks that they call in and they are inquiring about services and they want to. Discuss obviously what their options are and they'll mention I wanna subpoena these documents and get these financials, but I wanna. you know, I don't wanna go to court, I wanna settle up.
I just want an agreement drawn up. And I'm like attorney's have to talk to you about that. . You don't need to talk to
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: your attorney about that.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yeah. Okay. Anything else with that? Nope, I don't think so. Okay. Another custody related question. There's no custody of order or parenting agreement in place, but the other parent is withholding the child from me.
What do I do?
Sarah J. Hink: Court order,
Jennifer Bordeaux: order . there's nothing in place. Yeah. I mean, The problem becomes who? Who's got the child? Has the child, you can't go on their property. The police aren't gonna come get this child cuz there's no order to enforce. So you really, your only option at that point if they won't cooperate, is you've got to file a complaint, start a lawsuit, and ask the court to determine what custody
should
Sarah J. Hink: be.
The sooner, the better too. Cuz some people will, it'll take months. Yeah, it will take months. Months. And also, if you sit around. It doesn't look good. Okay. I have people, obviously you
Jennifer Bordeaux: weren't too concerned about that.
Sarah J. Hink: I have people come to me and it's been like a couple of years, like she's been withholding the child for how long?
Oh, two or three years. I'm like, oh, and you're just doing something about this now. Now. That doesn't look good in the eyes of the court. Like as soon as this is a problem. And you wanna see your child, you need to go talk to an attorney file in court for custody and get the process lease started.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: sometimes it is legitimate. Attorneys can be expensive. Yeah. But at least in Wake County now they have a great thing. They got the self-help new program. So at least go and let them help you file the complaint and get things started. And then that'll give you time to maybe find funds to get an attorney to
Sarah J. Hink: help you down the road.
Yes. And they have the complaint you can fill out on your own right. And help you fill it out. And that just, even if you don't do it correctly, it show they'll be somebody in the court file least
Jennifer Bordeaux: shows that you were
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: in, that it was important to you to
Sarah J. Hink: do. Exactly right. Okay. And I feel like a lot of times when we see folks they, when they call in, they're, it's because they had a verbal agreement and things were going great.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Well, And then all of a sudden they're not
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Daddy, mom, daddy found a girlfriend and then didn't
Jennifer Bordeaux: work too well. .
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And same thing act quickly. Correct. Get a court order cuz this is something that's gonna probably happen again if it's already happening. And verbal
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: agreements are not enforceable in North Carolina.
I don't know where they would be enforceable, but they're not. It's great that y'all got. . But if every, somebody always say, if somebody's willing to do something, then they should be willing to put it in writing and have it formalized. And executed or whatever.
Sarah J. Hink: And us attorneys can't just call up the other person and be like, Hey, you guys agree to this , she should even do
Jennifer Bordeaux: this, this, this.
Yes or what? .
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: We can't make anybody do anything. I can tell you that.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. Do you guys ever
Jennifer Bordeaux: see, let's say mom? I feel like maybe we've seen it the other way a little bit more, but the dad gets remarried and so now stepmom maybe is like driving force of some changes for custody stuff or child support or
Sarah J. Hink: A lot of times it seems the dad or whoever's gotten remarried, they're, they wanna see the kid more all of a sudden, like the spouse, new spouse wants to be involved and wanna see that involvement.
Jennifer Bordeaux: But I do think
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And that does happen. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Yeah. It shows that stepmom or stepdad is really vested in this child, and a lot of times, especially dad, They get a bad rap sometimes. Things are changing, but still, yeah. Sometimes they just don't come forward because. That's just the way it is. I only get every other weekend.
Sarah J. Hink: And maybe just honestly they aren't good at managing time and , like multiple things and
Jennifer Bordeaux: Right. They still love myself,
Sarah J. Hink: but we love their kids and wanna spend time with 'em. And now they have a new spouse to kinda help them.
Helping help them. That's right.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: That's right. Or they have a new baby and they want the child to be more with them so that they now have this blended family. It's,
Sarah J. Hink: yeah, it's the reality of it's, and it's not gonna be shunned by the court for this, new family.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: No, but a lot of times the other party, there's feelings involved, gets feelings involved and not thinking about, oh, this is probably a good thing, but as you say, it gets all wrapped up in their feelings.
Yeah, Yeah.
Jennifer Bordeaux: in general, we, because we've talked about registering a foreign order, if there's not an order in place and one. Decides to leave the state? Not necessarily. I don't know. Maliciously, I know there's a lot of different scenarios there, but can that fall in the realm of emergency custody?
I'm sure
Sarah J. Hink: it depends. We should probably save that for our relocation.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yeah. We'll save that. A little teaser for another episode coming up. I like it. Okay. I've been separated for a bajillion years, , and I wanna file for divorce, but I don't know where my ex is located. What do I. Cry, , , I would say
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: hallelujah.
I'd had to see him
Jennifer Bordeaux: in 23 years. That'd be awesome. Yeah. Regret. That's true. The file sooner. People have reached out to us, they've been married or separated for 18, 20, 25 years and I'm like, you didn't think to make this final before now, , I was counting down. We had
Sarah J. Hink: to do a lot of things to find them.
To try to find them. Yeah,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you do. I mean you, the end result is you can publish an announcement in a newspaper. Whether they see it or not, it doesn't matter. Then they've been served. But before that, you've got to show the court that you've made great efforts to find this person.
Sarah J. Hink: And you have to file these affidavits saying that you did the process of a private investigator, you hired to look into it.
You've done searches online, you've talked to people that know this person mean it. It's not a quick and easy process whatsoever.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: it will increase the cost. But just cause you can't find him, you can still get divorced. It's
Sarah J. Hink: just not as easy.
Jennifer Bordeaux: And I could definitely see if the parties don't have children together, they've had no reason to communicate beyond the separation Correct.
So to speak, so that you could lose hutch. We actually had a really kinda sad situation recently. Somebody reached out to us about that and they didn't have any children or joint property together, so they went their separate ways. The person that was reaching out to us still had contact information for their former spouse's parents.
And so this person reached out to get contact information or an address to try to be able to serve her with the documents and found out that she had passed away like a few months ago prior to this. And I was like, oh, that's so sad. It made logistically, it made the divorce. Well, what I could tell you is if she
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: had any property or.
Person that called us gets, should go to them. That's another issue. Yeah. They need to talk to an They don't, yeah, they're still married.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Don't think giving them
Sarah J. Hink: you know, Elizabeth, don't get sad.
Jennifer Bordeaux: We're like, find the money. That's right. . But that, but
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: as you bring the down the rabbit hole again y'all could be separated for 25 years and literally if the other party dies and has a million dollar estate, it's gonna come to you.
If there's no will, and even if there is a will, you might get a part of that. I always tell people when they're separated, hit by a bus today, they're gonna get everything you got. You need to get your will, you need to get your wills in order. Mm-hmm. . And we can do, and we can help with that.
Yeah. True. Actually,
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yeah. And change your beneficiaries on like financial accounts Absolutely everything. Absolutely. So much that goes into it. Yeah. Which again, and these are things that, and you don't think about things and that's not your, that's
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: not what's your type priority at that moment. Yeah. But that's why you come
Jennifer Bordeaux: to us.
That's right. Yes, that's right. Okay, let's see here. Where do I wanna go next? If I wanna separate and I'm willing, or I'm going to leave the marital home, should I take the kids with.
Sarah J. Hink: Someone's gotta take the kids .
Jennifer Bordeaux: It depends. ,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: yeah. If you're leaving, nobody's at the house. You might wanna take your kids with you.
I don't know. It's just a
Jennifer Bordeaux: thought. Someone should watch them. I dunno. I dunno.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Let's put it this way, you can, whether you should or not is a factual conversation you need to have with somebody. But can you take them If there's no, there should be no order in place cuz y'all are living together.
Mm-hmm. . So yes, you can take them, but if you have no order or agreement in place and you take them to school the next day, the other party can go to school and get them right and take them home and you're not gonna see 'em. Maybe she used to have some conversations about that before you leave. Yeah.
Unless it's a domestic violence issue or something.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. This, a lot of depends on all these scenario for sure. That's just, yeah.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Can you? Yeah, should
Sarah J. Hink: you? That depends if you're going to a hotel just for the night. Like maybe let them stay in their rooms. I mean, Yeah, just be nice about it. Depends on how old they are.
Exactly. Consider your children's wellbeing. Exactly. Yeah. .
Jennifer Bordeaux: In the same realm here. If I leave without a separation agreement in place, will I lose my rights to my house? No.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you'll lose the right to come and go, but you don't lose your ownership or your equity in it.
Sarah J. Hink: It is harder. I would, I guess I would say to, if you wanted to keep the house, like you wanna be the one that would refinance and stay in the home, if you're the one leaving, like it's a little bit harder to get you back in there if the other party also wants to. Right, So in that scenario you talk to an attorney before you leave, but you, like Elizabeth said, you don't lose like money from it.
You don't lose equity to it. Gotcha. Right. You can't just come and go afterwards either. what if you do come back after, or not come back for, to like resume the marriage? But what do you mean by lose your rights to come and go? if the person that stayed doesn't care, then it's fine.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Fine. But if they, but if you leave with the intent to go, they can change the locks. You go in and that's domestic trespass. Yeah, it's criminal statute. Yeah. I mean, there's some issues that are involved in that. So if you wanna leave back the truck up, get where you want you know, cause you're not gonna get it. They don't let you back in. Sometimes people get petty about that. Yeah, they do. You know. They definitely do. In that same vein, I feel like we get a lot of questions about this during the intake process when people are calling to find out about services they wanna leave and they've been kind of developing a plan, but they don't wanna get slapped with abandonment.
Jennifer Bordeaux: I know we've touched on this on, I think, some of our original episodes, but is do people really sue folks for abandonment? What does that look
Sarah J. Hink: like? It's not really like how everyone thinks it is. It's, yeah, I don't think
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: courts really don't care anymore.
Sarah J. Hink: No, it's not. It's more like, and this is what I tell people, it's if you know, I'm at home and my husband makes all the money, like he pays all the bills, right?
And I'm at home with the kids and he just disappears off to Hawaii. I learn and he has a new girlfriend out there and he's not paying for any of these bills, not communicating with. , that man straight up abandoned me. Right.
Jennifer Bordeaux: And it's a factor's extent. Yeah, it's
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: a factor for like spousal
Jennifer Bordeaux: support.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. For marital misconduct. But this whole like, I am I abandoning the marriage or the house? But if I leave and you just go across town? No. So it's like a very, in extreme
Jennifer Bordeaux: circumstances,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: People. But that's a really good point. I don't, I think 99.9% of people ask me that question.
Yes. All the time. It's been so there's some misinformation out there somewhere about that. Yeah. That people
Sarah J. Hink: are terribly afraid of. Or
Jennifer Bordeaux: that they want to, the person who stayed, who's not leaving. Wants to pursue abandonment towards the person who has chosen to leave I think there's misconceptions on, on those sides
Sarah J. Hink: there. No, I agree with that. You can feel abandoned. Yes. It doesn't matter. , you said
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you're gonna
Jennifer Bordeaux: sue
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: me for abandonment. No. The law doesn't leave room for emotion. in the same vein with property my divorce is final, but we didn't do anything with the house that we jointly owned.
Jennifer Bordeaux: How do I still. Am I part of the equity or the money from the Ho House? How does
Sarah J. Hink: that work?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: U you got a
Sarah J. Hink: big mask going on. . . It really depends on how amicable you still are. This other person you could
Jennifer Bordeaux: still agree to sell it
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: and still agree to split the proceeds, but once you get divorced, it's a weird concept.
when you're married, E each of you owned all of the house a hundred percent each party, which is weird. Then you get separated. Each of you only own half the house, so you could partition it all half the house, . It just, it's a mess.
Sarah J. Hink: There's, There's a reason. There's these marital laws out there.
Mm-hmm. and they provide, access for individuals to figure out how to deal with these circumstances. But once you go through a divorce and there's no pending claims for anything. You lose your remedies under these marital laws. That's right. That would apply
Jennifer Bordeaux: to you because now you're not married
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: anymore.
That's right. And so if one party doesn't wanna sell that nothing's gonna happen with that house. It's unless you
Sarah J. Hink: partition it, it's like me and Joe bought a house together randomly. We're just two people that own a house together. Are you married?
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yes. ? No, we're not married, we just, he's married to somebody else.
Yeah, no. If we just that is a mess. Oh my gosh. Yeah. As a joint
Sarah J. Hink: venture, I mean, and that's, in that scenario, his wife would own a quarter
Jennifer Bordeaux: pretty much.
Sarah J. Hink: I'd own 50%,
Jennifer Bordeaux: correct?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. Correct. So what I can say is, and this is very important if you have not filed a claim for equitable distribution, which is dividing your property, You need to have that done before you get divorced.
It doesn't have to be taken care of. It just has to be filed hard. Cause once you're divorced, you can't, the court cannot help you divide your property.
Sarah J. Hink: No. Then you have to go file for the petition to partition. Right. Which is a mess. A mess. I'm mean, I have a one case right now, it's just so messy.
And they've been separated for, I don't know how. Remarried and they still are both on this one property and Right. I've had this discovery being done right. And it's just not
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: fun. you know, you can use it as leverage, oh, you want me to sell this house? Okay, fine, but I'm gonna get 90% of the equity and you can get 10%.
Yeah. You're not gonna be, because
Jennifer Bordeaux: that's the only 50
Sarah J. Hink: 50 unless you agree. That's the only remedies That's right. To sell the house. That's right. So if you're the one in it and the, your other spouse wants it, It's gonna get done. It's done. Mm-hmm. , And you're kicked out and you're selling the
Jennifer Bordeaux: house.
Yep. Now, you mentioned filing a claim for equit distribution before filing for divorce, but does a separation agreement that addresses that the property, does that assign separation? Yeah, it's
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: goes, you get divorced, the separation agreement still remains in place. Okay. Yeah, we
Jennifer Bordeaux: get that question a lot too, right?
We, that's true. We do
Oh, this one happens. This goes back to feelings. . My ex want or my soon to be ex wants the divorce. They should have to pay for it. Can we make them? We
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: can't make them do a damn thing. ? No. A judge might be able to make them in certain circumstances,
Sarah J. Hink: pay for the divorce.
Just the divorce. Absolute divorce.
Jennifer Bordeaux: People, they of divorce is the full process. The whole kit caboodle. Yeah. So just the whole separate communication
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: process. Is there a way for a judge to order? My S sob X to pay for my attorney's fee. Sometimes
Sarah J. Hink: I need more facts here. Um, you know, it, it comes up in cases, um, well, I say I'm awarded alimony. Statutory cases would be alimony cases, right? Post-separation support, which is like the temporary alimony you can get, right? Custody cases, they will consider attorney's fees in some circumstances in child support cases, not property.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: So if
Jennifer Bordeaux: you Or the
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: divorce. Or the divorce itself.
He's not gonna pay for your divorce unless he really wants to get divorced.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yeah. Kind of thing. And if
Sarah J. Hink: you're waiting for the other person to pay, you're gonna be on those people we just
Jennifer Bordeaux: talked about. About just still have the damn house you gotta sell,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you're
Jennifer Bordeaux: divorced. Yeah.
But, and we talked about this some and the legal fees episode that we did all kinds of questions about legal fees in that we can't have your soon to be ex call us and pay for your consultation fee or pay your retainer fee. they can pay you directly. Correct? You can pay us, correct.
But we can't accept the funds from them because it would be unethical. And
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: sometimes we put that in separation agreements too. The other party will pay the attorney's fees. So they, if they agree to do it, absolutely.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. Yeah, of course they agree. When the judge orders it, it's after the fact. So you're l you still have to pay for your fees upfront.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And sometimes it's not all of them or it's paired $50 a month for the next 25 years. So you can't be guaranteed just cause you have a right to ask for. You're not guaranteed to get them.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And if the other party's asking for them, you, I counsel my clients based on what I've seen in court, the likelihood of them getting attorney's.
But it does happen. And you wanna make sure if there's financial documents that they want and you have them, that you're giving them over. Cuz a judge that's the case is where they look at just you know what, yes, you pay the attorney's fees, this is the rules that we're under. You need to, yeah, you're gonna pay the attorney's fees.
Right, right. And sometimes it's a lot of money. So , I've seen some big, big
Jennifer Bordeaux: dollar bills. Big dollars . All right. I'm almost done throwing questions at you guys. I'm just a few more here. this might be a short answer. Is cryptocurrency considered marital property? Yes.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. Like any
Jennifer Bordeaux: currency? Yeah. Even
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: though it's just floating out there it's 10
Jennifer Bordeaux: or it could be a, it could
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: be a debt.
I
Jennifer Bordeaux: don't know. Do you guys under, I don't even know what it is. I know the, I guess the general, or I just know Bitcoin and
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. There's different kinds. And it's like you, they could fluctuate in just like any other currency, right? Yeah. But it's
Jennifer Bordeaux: digital. Yeah.
It's just abstract in my mind. It's like it doesn't exist. All right, and let's see here. We, when we most often see this question or related to it, whenever people fill out the website, in their description that they want an attorney that has experience working with someone that is narcissistic or has narcissistic behaviors.
Elizabeth and Sarah, do you guys have experience working with Narciss narcissistic behaviors? Of course, , if you're
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: working in family law, you have experience. Yeah. Whether you understand how to work with someone that is a narcissist or who is on the other side is.
Sarah J. Hink: Question. Yeah. I mean, we've dated narcissists.
We've had friends that are narcissist, probably have family members, NA members that are narcissist narcist, and we see it a lot in our cases. And we've had clients to be the person that. Right. Oh, absolutely. A lot of times there's couples and both of them demonstrate those traits. Of course we're not medical professionals.
Right. And I think
Jennifer Bordeaux: people throw that
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: term around a lot. Mm-hmm. everybody who's an A-hole is not always a na a narcissist and vice versa.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. They might just be operating incredibly selfishly and You have to understand like what they're going through. That may be their reaction to being hurt.
Right. Or something like that. Right, right. You, but people are selfish in general. I'm sorry. Everyone
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: out there, if you're going through a separation, you're very much in a self-preservation mode. Yeah. Which can exhibit as narcissistic traits.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And you can pick up on it. And when there's domestic violence or just overall, some kind of abuse in the relationship. Financial abuse. Emotional abuse. Then we know to look further and what else is going on. Right, right. Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Which one is. Such a prime example as to why we refer out to mental health professionals all the time to correct navigate that.
In addition only speaks to the importance of having a great legal team in your corner because you guys are removed from the situation, can recognize those behaviors, but can still. Provide obviously guidance and advice on, okay, cool, yeah, this person's an ass, but legally this is still what's gonna happen.
they can't control this, they can't do this, or these are your rights kind of thing too, the
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: other issue is you're not gonna change 'em for the most part. You got kids, you're gonna have to learn to deal with that narcissist. Yeah. And so that's why, that's where you come in, Jen, by going out there and building those networks for us that we do, I.
We got a great, we're deep in therapists. We've got some great folks out there that can help. We really do. Sure. And there's some good reading material out there too with co-parenting, with narcissists. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Bless, bless mental health professionals. I know. . Okay, last question, and I thought this would be a one to wrap up with because it's just obviously been something that has affected everyone globally to include the family law world.
And I was trying to read up some stuff separately from this on it too, but in you guys as professional and personal opinion do you think we've seen an uptick in divorces since 2020 and. I don't know.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: I don't feel like there has been, we see
Sarah J. Hink: divorces every day, so I don't
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: know. I think that's what I think people will more likely say that's why they're getting divorced.
I think they probably would've, anyway. It just took, it just happened a little sooner.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah I remember like sh probably like 20, 21. Year after it when people started working from home and there'd be relationships where that person used to be like out of the house, travel. Correct. Working. And now they're home all the time.
And now they're like, I really just hate him and I can't do it anymore. Right Before he was out of the house all the time, and I can manage right. The feelings didn't change. She never liked him, but now he's just there all the
Jennifer Bordeaux: time there all the time. Yeah, I'm married to you. I never liked you, but , but no, but it's true.
I'm
Sarah J. Hink: sure they liked each other one day at one point,
Jennifer Bordeaux: but yeah
Sarah J. Hink: I would hope so. And people went through a lot individually through covid and everything, so that could change someone's personality. I know that there was an uptick in like alcoholism and people staying home a lot.
So those individual things could have impacts on relationships.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: You come to the conclusion life is short . Yeah. You
Jennifer Bordeaux: know, I could be dead tomorrow
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: But I mean now it's like, oh gosh, really could happen. Yes. Why am I doing this?
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yeah. And then everything that I read Honestly wasn't super conclusive
I was like, okay, I'm spinning wheels here. The only thing that really played out in every different article that I was reading, trying to find reputable sources was that divorce rates didn't really increase, but marriage rates did decrease, which would then Linda itself to less divorces.
Sarah J. Hink: That makes sense, because it does make sense.
No one was getting married cause he couldn't gather. So there was like a big slump in that first year
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: But what might be interesting is to see like 10 years down the road, what the statistics are because one, you had, you couldn't get married. So you had to, and you were stuck with this person.
So did you have a better understanding when you, when you did get married in 2023, y'all had already, you already know the good, bad thing, ugly. Instead of getting married in three years in finding out the good or bad thing,
Sarah J. Hink: getting separated. Yeah. And then also financial reasons people might have held that because a lot of people were hit financially. Right. Depending on what kind of sector of the employment you had. True. True. Also, people who worry about money, sometimes they hold off on separating
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Especially older folks do. I think especially if you have retirement age,
we had made all these plans to retire. Mm-hmm. now I'm only gonna get half my retirement. That's gonna be a problem.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Sometimes they save
Sarah J. Hink: healthy, sorry, . Absolutely. And we have clients who are like in their 70 eighties and they're like, I'm done. No one's done.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. I mean I've had, that's so funny. I've had a, not a lot lately, but it seems like a little more, I think.
Jennifer Bordeaux: That was a thread throughout just divorce statistics, that gray divorce, what it's term. Right, right. Gray divorce has been on the increase for the last couple of years. Right, right. And I. It'll be interesting to see because in this data there's so many variables that can go into research and studies, but one thing, a lot of these, stats are pulled from courthouses and filings.
Right? Right. So that's not gonna include people that are just separated. True. But what you're also seeing is that if you're older, and you get separated. Women are not getting remarried cuz I'm tired of taking care of themselves. . Yeah. But men ha are more dependent and so they are looking to get remarried and women are just going hell though.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: I'm good. I'm, I'm good. You keep your house off, keep mine and we can. You come to my house three nights a week, I'll go to yours, but I'm not getting married. You have
Jennifer Bordeaux: A custody schedule with your dating relationship . Exactly. Week on, week off. I love it. . So I think it'll be interesting as maybe in this, in the educational world, if they do, like in the sociological field, if they do something that's more.
Qualitative combined with quantitative, looking at more factors than just, oh yeah. The filings that are for divorce to find out. that'll be a few years down the road for sure. But, I'm done. Those are all the questions that I have for you. Anything else in general you guys wanna throw out there for an f FAQ from Super Lawyers?
I'm rising. I feel like
Elizabeth A. Stephenson: it just is like I'm a one L and I've just been here. The
Jennifer Bordeaux: professor this I know,
Sarah J. Hink: and I'm a still rising super lawyer. ,
Jennifer Bordeaux: rising ups young. You're not old like me, . No, I think
Sarah J. Hink: I'm, I don't know. When. When do you start? I don't know. I think
Jennifer Bordeaux: stop rising. I think 40. 40. Then
Sarah J. Hink: you start going down.
I'm like,
Jennifer Bordeaux: okay. You're a falling star.
Sarah J. Hink: Star. Yeah. Falling star at that point. Yeah. Starlet. All right. Thank you, Jen. Thanks, Dan. Great.
Jennifer Bordeaux: Yeah, you're welcome.
That's some shit,