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Naughty by Nature is a show about finding a god that accepts all of you.
Filmmaker, performer, and former-Evangelical Christian, Treen (Katrina Lillian Sorrentino) is on a mission to find humor and wisdom in all our spiritual journeys, whether we’re being born again or deconstructing from toxic religious relationships.
In this cheeky and subversive series about how to keep the faith, Treen talks with guests about how they processed their religious baggage and carved out a unique spiritual path for themselves.
Oh, and God will be there too, played by a different mystery comedian on every episode.
To join us on this hilarious ride make sure you follow the show, subscribe to our channel here YouTube.com/@nxnpod, and follow along on Instagram @nxnpod for more goodies!
Produced by:
https://www.rainbowcreative.co
https://www.verna.studio
https://www.treentreen.com
Treen: Welcome to the inaugural, virginal episode of the Naughty by Nature podcast. I'm Treen, and I'm your reluctant host on this vulnerable ride. This is a show where we confront what the Christian church told us was taboo through humor, storytelling, and a little role playing so that we can be born again on our terms.
In each episode, I've invited a different comedian to play ‘God’ to help us reimagine and relate to the big guy upstairs. And I'm using the word God intentionally. The word actually comes from Germanic pagan roots, and it was originally gender neutral until the Christians got involved, and it actually means to invoke.
So, God, are you ready to kick us off?
GOD: Episode 1, Baptism and the Real Meaning of Being Born Again.
Treen: God, it's so amazing to have you on the show. Uh, I've had so many questions for you, literally my entire life, and I've never had a chance to speak with you call and response. So welcome.
GOD: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. My first podcast.
Treen: So I guess it's a virginal experience for all of us today.
GOD: For everybody and I think that's exciting. Yeah.
Treen: Well, our guest today is Ruthie Lindsey, who is a public speaker, a coach, an author, and she supports others feel endeared to their life, body, and soul. Ruthie, do you want to say hi to God and to our listeners?
Ruthie: Yes. Can you hear and see me?
Treen: We can!
Ruthie: Okay! I didn't know if I was in! And if you want me to try to connect my phone, I can do that too. I'm so, y'all, I've been on my computer all morning. I don't know what the fuck is happening right now. God, can you tell me what's going on?
GOD: I, yeah, my, uh, my knowledge stops with ethernet. But I gotta say, you're doing great work, Ruthie.
Ruthie: Thank you. Oh, that makes my little heart feel so good, God.
Treen: Oh no, she disappeared. This is going to be an interesting podcast, God, if it's just you and me.
Before I kick off this episode, I wanted to take the moment to do a quick Vybes check.
One thing to know about me is that I have struggled with chronic fatigue since I was 28 years old and I'm addicted to coffee. I've recently discovered Vybes. They're an all natural energy drink. This one has passion fruit juice. Yum. It doesn't make my breath smell like a dirty little rat. So I'm enjoying drinking them.
Check out the Vybes. Vybes are good. The Vybes are good here in this can.
Treen: I wanted to share with our listeners that Ruthie and I actually met at a spiritual retreat called Widen through our dear friend Lindsay. And we met, uh, there, Father Richard Rohr was one of the lead teachers at the retreat. And Father Richard Rohr is someone who millennials sort of call the gateway drug to, uh, deconstructing from Christianity.
Uh, and we're here today to talk about our conversion stories. On my end, we're going back to about age 20. Ruthie, I'm not sure on your end where we're, where we're headed.
Ruthie: About 19.
Treen: Okay. What was your religious background growing up?
Ruthie: So I grew up Episcopalian, but in our home it was way more about being good and moral.
We went to church, but it wasn't like I didn't read the Bible. I knew about Jesus, but that wasn't like the driving factor. More so it was like, be good, be good, be good, be good. You know, that was the most important thing.
Treen: Hmm. Similarly, I was raised Roman Catholic, but it was more like a traditional cultural thing, being German, Italian. I truly didn't even know what the Holy Spirit was until I converted to Evangelicalism. I knew there was a trinity, but I was like, who's the other, who's the other person? And the only thing I remember being taught about religion was just do not have sex with before marriage. You could do a lot of other things, but if you had sex before marriage, you might be damned and punished.
Ruthie: It's interesting. So my parents never said that to me, but I ingested that message. And I, cause my parents were wild and crazy, like growing up.
Treen: Parents gone wild.
Ruthie: Uh huh. Oh, total hippies. Oh yeah. But I, ingested a lot of the cultural, like I just, I never wanted to get in trouble.
My older brother got in so much trouble. So I just ingested like, be good, never get in trouble. Cause it's really bad news. If you get in trouble, like really bad news. So that meant don't drink, don't smoke, don't have sex, all the things.
Treen: Yeah. Um, God, you know, just because you're here with us, what are your thoughts on us being good, bad?
Do you care?
GOD: Good question. Good question for God. I think it is hard to define what good and bad mean. I think it's situational. And I think it's a matter of perspective and a matter of context, which we, uh, which we often ignore. And that's my diplomatic answer.
Treen: You are a very diplomatic god. I can see you at the UN.
GOD: By the way I'm running for president. Yeah. FYI.
Treen: Honestly, go for it because we could really use some fresh energy up in this. So Ruthie, what was your exposure then, growing up Episcopalian, what was your exposure to Evangelicalism, specifically?
Ruthie: So, I, died in a car accident when I was a senior in high school. And when I came out, I just needed more control.
It was something, you know, I became like a, I'd already had an eating disorder, but I wanted to control everything around me. And, everything felt so out of control. I had no tools. You know, I didn't do therapy. I had no understanding of the trauma that my body had just experienced. And then summer after my freshman year of college, I met all these Christians and it was like, Oh, that must be what I am because they don't drink, smoke, have sex, do drugs, and they are just wanting to be really good.
Also, we sang a lot of hymns about being broken, depraved, wretches and being bad and, you know, needing something outside of us. And I already felt like I was a piece of shit and broken and depraved. So that was like, that fits.
Treen: You're like, Oh, this tracks.
Ruthie: Yeah.
Treen: I didn't realize in your accident that you had a near death experience or that your. Okay. So your heart stopped. Wow.
Ruthie: And they had told me I had a less than one percent chance to live and a five percent chance to walk. And my friend who was in the wreck with me said that I was hanging over the steering wheel. He said he didn't remember if it was like three to five minutes. And it was actually interesting because it wasn't until maybe 2019 that I started having these like weird remembrings. And then I ended up doing, um, hypnotism and I remembered the whole thing. And I was able to call my friend and tell him certain things that he had never told me. About the wreck and because I was like outside of the car watching everything happen. So I had a real cool experience with you God.
Treen: Yeah. Seriously. No, wow. That was a rough initiation. Also, mine is going to sound really dumb in comparison.
Ruthie: No. Everyone's journey is perfect.
Treen: Mine was because of a boy. Well, typical. That's how God got me. Heartbreak.
GOD: It was a, it was a little uneven. I will say.
Ruthie: God, you had me sign up for some crazy shit this round, bud.
GOD: I wasn't thinking straight, but carry on I'm sorry.
Treen: So my story was grew up Catholic, didn't know what the Holy Spirit was. I was told don't have sex before marriage but when I was 20, I was one of the later people at NYU in my friend group that was still a virgin. And so I went to study abroad, lost my virginity and I, it was this, this whole shattering moment for me in my psyche because it was my first real experience of, of heartbreak. And I remember getting back to New York that fall and just crying, crying in the shower. I didn't know why I was in so much pain. And I thought then that, Oh, this is why you're not supposed to have sex before marriage. God is punishing me. I'm being punished for doing something that was wrong. That was sinful. And so I remember praying in the shower and I hadn't really prayed so much as a Catholic, but I was like, God, whatever I did, I'm sorry, please take away this pain. Send me a sign. I will go back to my virginal ways and I will stop this nonsense. Uh, and then I applied to leave New York again for another study abroad. That's where I met my ex husband who, I didn't know he was a Christian until we were leaving Cuba. We were packing up and I saw in his nightstand dresser, this really large annotated version of the King James Bible. And it was specifically impressive because we had a weight limit to get into the country. And this Bible was, I swear, 10 pounds. And so I was like, I was like, wait a second. Why did you, why was this one of the items that you had to bring?
Ruthie: This is the priority, okay.
Treen: And I learned then that he was a Christian and there was, uh, then there was this dance because I found out, you know, he was hesitant to be with me because I was Catholic and I was like, wait, aren't we the same thing?
So he was my gateway into cool hipster Christian church and Hell's Kitchen.
Ruthie: Wow boy, the boy.
Treen: God, you sent you sent a you sent a little a dangler.
GOD: A little temptation you might say. A little hipster boy who drinks IPAs and carries around the 10 pound Kim James annotated version of the Bible.
Ruthie: It’s so earnest.
Treen: Very earnest. I mean, God, for the record, were you, were you punishing us?
GOD: I don't have time to punish. I got a lot going on.
Treen: Yeah, what else do you have going on?
GOD: You know, writing a book myself. Speaking of which, uh, working on screenplays.
Ruthie: Bible 2.0?
GOD: Yes, yes. Working on, uh, an abridged version.
Ruthie: Okay.
GOD: You know, I feel like a lot of people have, uh, I've been putting words into my mouth and I want to get the truth out there. So again, I appreciate being on this podcast.
Treen: So then did you convert? Did you like re-baptize yourself in this new way?
Ruthie: Yeah, because I had been baptized like in the Episcopal church, you get baptized when you're a baby. And we did all the like traditional things with that. And, but absolutely, like I believed the Bible was the inherent word of God so you couldn't hear from God that was only in the Bible and you can only hear it from like, women couldn't teach, gay was sinful. And I just bought in completely because I already, you know, was just so, so, so unwell. And so if this is something outside of me, they're telling me this God outside of me could make me pure and clean and good. I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, sign me up. But I didn't have my own emotional experiences. I would just kind of take other people's experiences and absorb them as though, I would retell stories as though they were my own, because I did not have an actual relationship with God. I just wanted to be good. I would have called myself a Christian before, but then I was like, Oh, no, I wasn't a Christian yet. Now I'm saved. Now I'm saved. And it was very dualistic. Like we're the chosen ones within, in that denomination. They believed in predestination. So I was already chosen by you, God. Um, but all these other poor people weren't necessarily chosen. So a lot of people I knew were going to go to hell, um, unless they were predestined also. So that's really confusing when you're also supposed to like, tell people about Jesus, like, hope you are one of those chosen ones.
Treen: Right like I hope you got the scholarship.
Ruthie: Hope you don't burn in hell.
Treen: This relationship coach that I really love. He talks about how I think he got it from someone else, but Mark Groves talks a lot about how we are primed to either choose belonging or to choose self actualization, self expression, and oftentimes, the belonging will win over, obviously, you know this, because it's scary to be out on your own, uh, self actualizing, self expressing, because you're more vulnerable, you're apart from the tribe. When you're in the tribe, you belong, you're protected, uh, and I think it's really funny that, you know, at this really crucial moment when our brains were, you know, finalizing their, their development, we're becoming adults we fell into this community that felt really safe and loving.
Ruthie: Oh, for sure. I felt like I, you know, I hit the jackpot. I was, I mean, when I started learning from Richard Rohr, it made sense. It made so much sense when he talked about order, disorder, reorder, because I was like me and God and all the good chosen ones fit in this tiny little box. And that's, what's going to keep us safe. Those people out there, either we need to bring them along or they're dangerous, you know? So like they're other, and we are the ones that have all the answers. I mean, there were answers for, there was no spaciousness for mystery. Like it was like, these are all the rules. These are, this is what it is. This is, you know, and this is how you go to heaven and have eternal life with Jesus. And I was like, sign me up I don't want to burn in hell.
Treen: Yeah. Sign me up. There was no, there was no space for mystery, except sometimes, once I asked about dinosaurs and I feel like that really got skirted under the rug.
GOD: No, no, no. We're not, we're not talking about that. Uh, I have a question for both of you.
Ruthie: Yes God.
GOD: When you enter, when you enter into a new community, often it alters your relationship with existing communities or people. Did you experience that?
Treen: I know I did. Growing up, I always felt, I always felt different from the rest of kids. I could fit into all these different circles. But nobody really knew me because I didn't really know myself. So I was this chameleon. And in college, I had fallen into this group of friends who were great, but they were partiers. They did a lot of drugs. They had a lot of sex. And I knew that wasn't me. But I had had so much pain of not belonging in high school, of being the girl who would drive kids around drunk that I wanted to radically shift my reality and try something else. However, when I became a Christian, I did lose friendships. There was a roommate I had who when I chose my ex husband, she really never talked to me again. I fell out of touch with a lot of my friends in college, my filmmaking fellow friends at NYU because I think it was exactly what you said. Even if I wasn't doing it consciously, in order to be good and be right and be in control, I was like, Let me disassociate with this group because I don't know if they're God's chosen and I'm gonna go in this camp where these folks are definitely safe.
Ruthie: I can relate to so much of what you just said. I, it was interesting, I didn't know anything about attachment, attunement, any of those things, obviously, but I was friends with everyone. Like when I died in that car accident, I was in the hospital for about a month. My mom said that the amount of people that came and said that they were Ruthie's best friend, but no one really knew me because I didn't know me. Right? And so I was always the one I just wanted to be so good. So my friends started having sex in ninth grade. Most of them all drank. And I was always like you. I was like, I just felt different. And they respected me a lot. And I actually found pride and being the good girl that everyone looked up to. Like, you know, I got all the awards, like everyone and wanted their son to date me. And everyone wanted their child to be my best friend because I was like the best, most responsible. And so, yeah when I left high school, I barely, I didn't keep in touch with anyway, because I didn't have attachments. So I didn't, you know, they weren't surprised when I started working at a church and started doing, because I already acted like the goodest good girl ever. And then I started at LSU. That was my first year and a half and every, you know, LSU is a party school and I felt really lonely because I didn't, that wasn't my thing. And so when I met all these Christians, I was like, my people, there's other people.
Treen: It's interesting though, what you're saying, because I feel as though it speaks to the way girls and women are socialized under this still puritanical patriarchal system that we're all living in. And it's interesting to be socialized under this umbrella character type where you have this persona that you're meant to step into, and I think it's really contrary to, you know, I mean, there are parts of me that are genuinely nice, genuinely sweet, genuinely kind, genuinely soft as a woman in this lifetime, but I also can I can rage. It's interesting growing up in a system where those parts of us are banished and not, not safe to express, and I think it creates a lot of actually false manipulative niceness. And I think, so that's the the outward sort of social manipulation that you're talking about and the fakeness. And then internally, it delays maturity. In my experience, it delays self knowledge, self actualization and creates a lot of pain and suffering.
Ruthie: Oh, 100%. We come here with like core emotions that we're not allowed to feel that we, you know, that every human that's born has. And most of them in my home weren't allowed. It's like anger. No. Sadness. No. Desire.You can, joy and excitement, welcome. The other things like, no, that's not, you know, swallow that shit down and it doesn't go away. And so then we create these inhibitory emotions like anxiety, shame, which are these like check engine lights that are keeping us from feeling the core emotions and then they turn them on ourselves. I'm bad. Shame says, I'm, something's bad and broken about me. So then when I joined a church and we sang hymns about being broken depraved wretches, I'm like, that fits I'm bad, right? And then we create these like numbing things because it feels so bad to feel so bad. So I'm like, I just sat in front of a TV and ate my feelings all day. And you know, that helped me not be here and feel how shitty I felt about myself. So it just fed all of it. It's like, you know, culture, church, family, we're indoctrinated with these stories of what's so bad and wrong. And that's why I've been so obsessed after deconstructing learning shadow work, because I'm like, there are no bad parts. I don't believe there's just parts that learn how to survive. That kept me fucking alive.
Treen: It was essential until you were ready, until you were ready to face it. Um, God, I want to give you a second to tell, talk to us about your shadow parts or your, your bad parts that you're integrating.
GOD: Well, I, uh, why did I ask for those uninitiated, maybe taking notes? Uh, Ruthie, how would you explain shadow work?
Ruthie: Oh, that's one of my favorite topics ever. I love Carl Jung. I always get the quote a little bit wrong, but he talks about until the unconscious becomes conscious, you have the same results over and over and call it fate. And so these parts of us that aren't our identity, like love is who we actually are, essence, love. We are extensions of you, God, period, right?
GOD: Thank you.
Ruthie: You're welcome. We're so awesome. I love us. But we have these parts that we learn like as bright as your light is, is as bright as your shadow. So I have lied. I have stolen. I have cheated. I have unconsciously used people. I felt jealous, envy, fear, control. I mean, fucking name it. If I can't stand it in someone else, it's because it sits in me too. But when I shame them and hate them, I become my own second wound. If I feel jealousy, and then I'm hating myself because I'm like, you should be a better friend. You should be. And actually, this is a cool story because I know Audrey is going to be a guest on your podcast. She's one of my best friends. And years ago, she was telling me about her now, husband. And I had been single at that point for probably like seven years after my divorce. And, and I'm so happy for her. I'd been praying for that for her. And yet I also felt viscerally jealous. And because we had this dynamic, I went up to her and I was like, sister, and I was crying because I felt shame for feeling it. Right? But because I'd studied enough about shadow work, I was like, I am so happy for you. And I am like green with envy. I am so jealous. And I'm so, sorry cause I know, I know that's about me. I know it's a story that there's not enough for me too. And she did something that I'm not kidding changed my life. She walked around the counter and came and looked me in the eye and said, Ruthie, I love that part of you, that part of you gets to be here too. Cause I love every part of you. And what I realized is all of a sudden shame moved, jealousy and shame moved from the driver's seat of that moment back into their little fucking high chairs. And love moved into the driver's seat because we never heal through shame. By learning to commune with these parts, and love on these parts, and feel these parts in our bodies, which that's all they want. Then they don't have to drive. They don't have to be the head of the table. Love gets to move back in, in its regular seat, but like all that shit's still in me. Like, I mean, I don't remember the last time I stole, but like, you know, all of these shadow parts, like for me.
Treen: Might want to give it a whirl.
Ruthie: Yeah, maybe that'd be fun. But to be a wholehearted being, is whole, is all of me. That includes my shadow and my light. And I have so much fucking shadow in me, and I have yet to meet a fully enlightened being in this life and so, I'm gonna have shadow parts until the day I die. And like, but I know that they only grow and come out sideways when I shame them and hate them, period. And that's so much of what the religion I was a part of taught me is they were bad, dirty, sinful, and they have to go away. They don't fucking go away by hating them. It's why like so many preachers who teach you like you can't have sex end up fucking their congregate, congregation members. Yeah. And it's, I'm not even like shaming that I'm like, of course, because that shadow drove, you know, does that make sense God?
GOD: Hold on.
Treen: God is now, God is now in the notes app. He's got highlighter and annotations. It like of looks like my ex's King James Bible, I think, at this point.
Ruthie: God, I feel like that's what you've taught me.
GOD: Fantastic. I'm glad I taught you something. Another question, you talk about acknowledging those shadow parts of you, again asking for a friend here, how do you discern between emotions that are, I guess, true to the moment and those that are rooted or bound by trauma?
Ruthie: I love that question so much. And from what I've studied and learned, our limbic brain doesn't know time. So they say when our responses are hysterical, they're always historical. And it's so old. It's, a lot of times it's even pre-verbal, right? And so it's like, when you, we've all know the experience of like, a partner or a friend says something and we explode on them, and it wasn't that big of a deal. They're just scratching the surface of a scab that never healed. And so that wound poured out because that had never been healed. That's like, you know, I died in that car accident. I could drive past that spot where I died and my body would tense up and feel because, because my body doesn't. My limbic brain doesn't know time. It doesn't know that I'm safe now, that I'm okay. But the beautiful thing is because our limbic brain doesn't know time through EMDR, through breathwork, through plant medicine, through so many different things, because you created our brains so fucking perfectly, God, we get to go back in and rewire it and create new neuropathways. I can go, I have gone back in and taken care of that little girl. I have gone back into the hospital and taken her off life support and taken her chains off and pulled out every wire and I have picked her up and I've danced with her and I've looked at doctors and said, take your fucking hands off her and don't touch her again and carried her out. And my neural pathways in my brain, because my limbic brain doesn't know time, it doesn't know that's not exactly how it happened the first time because it doesn't know time. And so we were created for healing. Just so many of us weren't taught that in this life. And we get to go deeper and deeper and deeper into it. So you really created us so masterfully, God, and you signed us up for some crazy ass shit.
Treen: Yeah, this is a real, a real roller coaster, I will say.
Treen: Ruthie, I heard you say you had chosen this community, but you didn't really have a personal relationship with God. You weren't talking to, yeah, what was your relationship with God like at the time?
Ruthie: Performative. I went to every Bible study. I went to RUF once a week. I went to church every Sunday. I sang. I loved singing. I've always loved singing, but I was also like singing louder and bigger than everyone else was. Because then I would be the goodest good girl Christian, right? I wanted to serve people, but then I'd go home and just binge all night and feel really shitty about myself. But no one knew I was suffering. I thought if people knew me, they wouldn't be like me anymore. So I kept people unconsciously at a real distance. No one knew I was suffering like that. It wasn't a personal relationship until after I deconstructed.
Treen: I actually had really, uh, mystical, transportive, psychedelic experiences in worship at church. So I, that's why they got me because I had out of body experiences where the first time I was in prayer, I could see myself floating above my body. And I, I remember like trying to hold onto the ground because I was floating above my physical form and it scared me. I had other times in worship where I would close my eyes and I would feel like I was 50 feet tall with a balloon head, um, which is maybe tangential, but it feels important. And I was in a, I was in a choir of thousands of people. And so I had these moments in prayer and in worship that, um, I had never felt before. I thought like I was receiving my ticket to Hogwarts. But because I was experiencing it in this container, I of course called it Jesus. And then when the conditions of that became oppressive to where my soul was going, obviously my deconstruction then was really scary because I thought that deconstructing would take me away from the magic that I had experienced at, at church.
Ruthie: Yes. I actually love hearing that story because I mean, even in you asking about doing this podcast, like the last thing I'd ever want to do is make fun of people's experiences. And like, I have friends who have the most. powerful. My best friend, Katie, is in a relationship with the divine. Like her relationship to God is one of the most beautiful, precious, true, earnest things. And it's in the, I mean, she's a mystic, but it's under, you know, the veil of Christianity. And I'm obsessed with Jesus, obsessed, but I'm also obsessed with Mother Mary, you know, and Quan Yin and Buddha. And I love Isis. Like, don't even get me started. Sex goddess. But like, I. I know, you know, thankfully, and like, Father Richard Rohr, I mean, there's so many Christians that I have, I'm like, this is, it's so beautiful and real and it's not my place to judge how you connect to God. It, that, you know, that framework doesn't fit for me anymore. But like, as cheesy as it sounds, like I am so fucking obsessed with God. Like every day I'm like, just use me, like use me, like give me your voice, give me your eyes, give me your words. And I, even before, like when I was deconstructing, if I heard me say that, I would have wanted to punt me to the fucking moon because I had to throw everything out, the baby with the bathwater until I had a like mystical experience with plant medicine so it was a psychedelic, psychedelic experience, but I was like, God is real he hasn't abandoned. Like when I lived in a bed for seven years because of the wreck stuff, that's a whole other story, but I believed there can't be a God, if there is fuck you, because you must hate me. You must hate me. My husband left me a wire, pierced my brainstem and I lived in a bed on every drug for seven years. I just, I felt so abandoned by God, by life, by everything. And I had not had those experiences yet, you know, and now I'm like, it's what drives me. I mean, I want to be so human and so accessible and I love being irreverent and all the things, but like God is, yeah, I think you're here for all of it God.
Treen: Yeah God, how do you feel about Ruthie being obsessed with you?
GOD: Well, first of all, don't tell people, uh, uh, that you want me to use you out loud.
Ruthie: But I do!
GOD: Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Treen: Use us.
GOD: Nope. I don't consent to that. Uh, first of all, shout out to Katie. Love you. I love it when, uh, when people declare their obsession for me because it, it indicates a healthy obsession with themselves. That's the way I see it.
Ruthie: Oh, that's my favorite thing you've said today.
GOD: Or at least an attunement, an attunement with, uh, with themselves. And that's a relationship. That I think should be honored and should be platformed because I think a lot of people have a disconnection with who they are. If that's the outward projection of the love and honor you have for who you are, then I can only encourage it.
Ruthie: Why does that kind of make me want to cry God? I really hated myself for so long. And like, I literally tell my friends, I'm like, I get to experience God because I get to sit across from Katrina because she is an extension of you. And like, wow, what a privilege. What an honor. We just forget. We come here and we forget that we are extensions of fucking divinity. And we get so bogged down by the denseness of, and the illusion of separation, right? And we just forget. And I think the whole journey of earth school is come here, we forget, and we go through all the trials and all the suffering, and we don't all learn it in this life. But then the journey is remembering.
Treen: Recently, I've just been tapping into the preciousness of this moment. And without wanting to sound cheesy or trite, but truly I wake up every day and I'm like, tomorrow is, is not promised, is not given. And I've been feeling that, uh, resonance of how special this moment is right now and how insanely odd it is that we're all on this planet, flying through space that is constantly expanding. Like if we just take a second to think about that, it's way more than we can handle. And at the same time, we've created these structures and systems that prevent us from feeling the magnitude of that. And that's why I wanted to have these conversations on this show. God, did you, was this planned or was this an accident? Can you talk a little bit about your intention?
GOD: And I mean, it's the universal story of creation, right? Like we set out to achieve a vision or an idea, and sometimes it takes life of its own in unexpected ways. Take “Lost”, for instance.
Treen: The show? From 2007?
GOD: Yes.
Treen: I loved that show by the way.
GOD: The critically acclaimed television series, “Lost”, really, really strong first couple of seasons. They had an idea, right? And then it, then it got away from them. And it became something entirely different. And then when you ask the producers and writers what the show was about, they have no idea. That's kind of where I am right now in my, in my journey and my relationship with all of you. I have no idea what's happening.
Treen: Or it sounds like we're all on the same bus.
GOD: But that's the point, right? That's the point.
Treen: We're all lost and therefore we're all, we're all found.
GOD: Hold on. I'm writing that down.
Ruthie: For Bible 2. 0.
GOD: So, I am curious, practically, what are the mechanics and what does one do or experience uh, in an Evangelical baptism? And what are your thoughts about it? Is it cool? Is it…
Treen: The water is very cold, at least in my experience. Uh, Ruthie, did you have a born again baptism?
Ruthie: That wasn't a thing in the PCA. No, you didn't have to get baptized. I mean, you were born again, metaphysically or whatever, when you accepted Jesus, right? That was a born again, I guess, baptism of its own, right? But you weren't having to, like, we actually, in ours, we kind of made fun of it.
Treen: Oh goodness, well, it wasn't cool because let me tell you what happened in my church. So it would only happen like when enough people were ready to be baptized because you can't pull out the kiddie pool inside of a historic church in Hell's Kitchen every Sunday. It's a whole affair. You have to like put down a tarp. You got to get the kiddie pool out. You got to inflate it. You need towels on standby. And I decided, that day, I'm not sure why, to wear a white t-shirt because I wanted to be pure and reverent looking and holy. And so I remember that I, uh, got on stage and I sort of blacked out a little bit because I've never been a really confident public speaker, shared my testimony, and then they dipped me in the water. And all I remember it being was frigid. So cold. And when I came out, my nips were, were pokey. And so I just remember, yeah, like it pierced someone's eyes in the back of the room. So I just remember going like this and just kind of walking off stage. Yeah, I feel like honestly, I honestly feel like that was maybe my initiation, my descent into, into reclaiming all the shame that I've had. You don't walk out with rock hard nips from a baptism and remain unchanged. I'll say that right now.
GOD: I was like, she's in.
Treen: God. You said that this show has sort of, sort of surprised you, um, you know, in terms of what humans are up to and what we do, what, uh, what do you love most about us?
GOD: I appreciate the care and thought that goes into reflection, and I'm humored by anxiety as much as it is a nuisance, is also fascinating to observe the stories and context that we create and think about when we're reflecting on our lives and our history and the way Ruthie, for example, in almost a celebratory way, reflects on that near death experience.
I think it is acutely human to be able to observe that with that level of clarity. And then, more so, share it in communion with others. And that's true wisdom.
Treen: That is wisdy. When do you feel most connected to us?
GOD: I think, I guess when they're self sufficient. There is a security in knowing your child can take care of themselves. When they've learned what they've needed to learn, and they don't need constant reassurance or validation from you. Every so often they check in, but you trust that they are living their own life. That unconditional love, I think, is the purest form of connection.
Treen: That really speaks to, I think, the importance of deconstructing from these constructs so that one can think for themself because when we accrue that autonomy and that agency, we're able to meet God as an equal versus as an inferior, inferior being. Uh, cause if we are God and God is us, how beautiful and how essential would it be then to step into, uh, our programming, our, you know, inherent programming as autonomous beings, a part of this whole constellation.
GOD: Exactly. And this doesn't apply to the dinosaurs, FYI. We're not going to talk about that.
Treen: Yeah, the dinosaurs.
GOD: No, no, no, no, no. We're not going to talk about that. Thank you.
Treen: There's no time to talk about the dinosaurs today, but I do have questions about them.
GOD: Yea I gotta go.
Treen: Ruthie, I want to know what you see now as the meaning or purpose of someone being born again. We could look at it symbolically in, in the church of like, okay, here was this moment that in Christian church, they told us we were reconciled to Jesus. But if we take that metaphor further out, what do you see as the purpose of someone being born again as a Christian and then born again as a deconstructed Christian and then born again as a mystic, etc.?
Ruthie: I mean, I think it's all this perfectly planned experience. It's like my greatest teacher around it, like we said earlier, earlier is Father Richard Rohr and he talks about order, disorder, reorder, and you can't jump from order to reorder, but in order we fit in this teeny little box. It helps you feel safety, right? Like, us and God have to fit in there. And so to be saved, you feel like, okay, I have all the answers. I'm going to have eternal life. I need to behave this way and everything's going to work out for me because me and all the good people are going to go to heaven together. And there's and heaven is this after experience, you know, instead of the metaphor of heaven and hell. Um, and then that doesn't fit for everyone. Some people never leave that part in this life and that's exactly, their little soul's journey and there's nothing wrong with it. And then the next step, like for people like me, who my world imploded in nine million ways, there was so much hell that I left the church, threw the baby out with the bathwater. Cause I'm like, fuck this. I did everything right. And now my world's upside down and horrific. And that's when I moved into another dualistic thing. And it was actually just dressed up in a different outfit because then, which I can still dance there, just hear me, I can still dance in a lot of disorder, but when you move into disorder, it's still this us against them Because then I was judging all the people in order and being like those close minded idiots, you know, they're just so conditioned and they're so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and now I'm free. And a lot of people, a lot of us, I mean, again, I dance there a lot don't leave that place in this life. And then the third phase he talks about is reorder. And that is when you begin remembering the oneness that like, it's all, I can't, I can't jump from LA to New York. Like I had to go through every part of it. Like for a while, if I heard someone sing a Christian song or speak a Christian language, I just would be like. I mean, I'd smile because I wanted to be a good girl, but in my head, I'm like, I don't want to put you in the fucking mood. Like it was so activating for me because I was in disorder and I hate, you almost have to hate it to have the strength to leave it. To have the strength, you almost have to despise it to have the strength to leave that thing that you felt so much belonging in. Right? And so I then was then parked in disorder for a long time. And that was me in a bed and hating everything and feeling so separate and all alone. And then, you know, that's when I, the third phase is this non dualistic phase when you have moments of remembering that every, there is no, it's an illusion of separation that I am connected. I am an extension of God. I'm not separate from you. And I had these things to experience that ultimately invited me into coming back home to myself, to remembering the oneness that God is so obsessed with me and God is so obsessed with you. And listen, like we said earlier, I forget all the fucking time and I will like, want to die and just be like, but like, it's also so interesting because I did die and I that gave me this freedom and remembering that, Oh, I know hell, but that's here. That's in my illusion of separation. That's in that story that I am all alone, that I am broken, that I am depraved. And like, I believe that it's this metaphor. I believe we can create heaven on earth. I've had moments of just pure bliss and joy, but I have to let myself feel and experience it all. I honor that journey of people in order that, you know, they're perfect. Like I can go to my brother's church now, I won't sing the part about being a broken depraved wretch, but I'm like, Oh, this is beautiful. And all these people coming together that want to, you know, earnestly serve and worship and honor God.
Treen: It reminds me, there's this, uh, scientist at Columbia University who has located in the human brain, a, a space, a location for spirituality. Now, spirituality could be just humans in our connection with nature, humans connection with their own bodies themselves. But we are quite literally programmed for reverence and, um, to recognize the miracle of being in this experience. I think for me, what I learned about being baptized was humans have been engaging in ceremony and ritual since the beginning. And what I think ceremony and ritual does is it demarcates time, like even though, like you said, our limbic brain doesn't understand, have a concept of time there is another part of us that experiences time. And so I think by demarcating time, we can put an uh stick in the sand and be like, this is what I've learned at this moment. And if I learned that here, then this is where I can arc towards where I'm going. And so for me, it was really funny because my baptism in a way was sort of the beginning of, uh, my dark night of the soul. It was this last moment where I felt so held and so connected to that previous system. And from there, it was like, Oh, now we're gonna, now we're going to go on this journey and deconstruct.
Ruthie: Which is a brave journey.
Treen: Yeah. But I do think what Jesus says about being having a childlike mind is not dissimilar to what people are talking about with, you know, reprogramming the subconscious. I think what Jesus was saying actually has a lot of validity. If you want to experience a new reality, you have to audition a new personality. And how do we audition a new personality? We have to deconstruct all of the things that we think make us ourselves. If we want to just have a different ride on this on this boat.
Treen: Today's guest again was Ruthie Lindsey. Ruthie, how can folks find you? How can they work with you? How can they support you?
Ruthie: Yeah, um my website ruthielindsey.com L I N D S E Y I have a newsletter that you can sign up for that, lots of juicy stuff talking about shadow work, deconstruction, you know, how to come back to ourselves, sacred sexuality. I love to connect to God through sex. What a dream.
GOD: I heard that. Um, yeah, it's, it's really beautiful. Um, and I, on my Instagram is Ruthie Lindsay, same L I N D S E Y. I do a lot of, um, I do one on one coaching. I probably like half my clients are therapists and coaches, so I get to hold space for a lot of space holders. But then there's people on every place in the journey, you know, and it's very much individualized to each individual person. And then I also lead circles for women. I have a sacred rebel circle. I thought you'd like that term, God, sacred rebel. Um, and I lead retreats and workshops, but you can find all of it on my newsletter. It's called Love's Invitation.
Treen: Thank you so much. Wow. And today's God today's comedian was played by my friend Alan Kolenovich. Alan, do you want to tell folks what you're up to how they can support your comedy?
GOD: Yeah. Well, thank you for inviting me. This was a lot of fun. Ruthie. Thank you for sharing your stories. Yeah, you can find you can find me on Instagram. That's where I post most of my updates. I perform, uh, improv comedy in Los Angeles and Orange County. And, uh, don't hesitate to reach out.
Treen: Amazing. Thank you so much. Um, that's episode one. Stay tuned for more episodes of this podcast. And until then, just please stay naughty.
GOD: That's right.
Treen: Thank you so much for listening to the Naughty by Nature podcast. Did you like that and want to enjoy it all again? Well, we've got visuals, baby. Watch and subscribe to our YouTube channel at nxnpod. Also hit the follow button here to be alerted to following episodes and take one tiny second to tell us what you think with a rating or review.
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