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Deep conversations with underrated lawyers.
This is Horum with Horum's Quorum. My guest today is Heather Stevenson, who's the general counsel at Red Cell Partners. Heather's a fascinating combination of some seemingly opposing traits where she's been highly strategic with her career and yet open to wildly different roles. She has great ideas on being a better lawyer, but then she also has a strong focus on being a complete person. There's so many great ideas and stories packed into this episode.
Khurram Naik:Here it is. Heather, it's so great to finally sit down with you and this conversation. So I feel like we've been this has been the worst for a while, so I'm glad that we're finally sitting down to do this.
Heather Stevenson:Yes. Me too. I always enjoy our conversations and fun to record one.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you and I were talking in. I think just the most obvious place to start your story, I think one of the most interesting parts of your career as a lawyer or as a professional is the fact that you're offering a popular juice bar in Downtown Boston.
Khurram Naik:So I think a lot of the word fascinated with with that you left the practice law to do that, and then also returned the practice law. Think both are really interesting decisions to make. But so let's start with how does a associate in New York, a consultant in Conwell decide to open a juice bar in Boston?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. Absolutely. It's it's certainly a a unique situation. So I was at Sullivan and Cromwell for around three years as a litigator. I was doing mostly securities and shareholder derivative suits.
Heather Stevenson:And for the most part, I actually liked it. There are a lot of people who leave big law kind of like kicking and screaming about how horrible it's been or, you know, the sleepless nights that caused them to leave. For me, it was more a twofold situation of one, looking ahead at the next forty, fifty years and not thinking that that was necessarily how I wanted to spend my life, not because there was necessarily anything wrong with it. My colleagues were great, the work was interesting, but also the hours were long. And I wasn't finding it that rewarding.
Heather Stevenson:And then also being at a point in my life where trying other things really did feel like a possibility. I was recently married, but had no kids and really no financial responsibility beyond, you know, taking care of myself and, you know, my husband who also worked. So we loved food. We loved Boston, had family here, and saw this kind of market gap for a juice bar. And we had thought about other things like, you know, should we should I go to a smaller firm?
Heather Stevenson:Should I go to government? Should I try to clerk? But this felt like if I was ever gonna start a food business, which was something that was really interesting to me, it was the time. There would be no better time. And so I knew the law would always be there, which I don't think people always feel is the case, but I I felt confident I could go back one day if I needed to, and that I had this great opportunity to try something new that I thought Boston needed, and so I did it.
Khurram Naik:And then what was the calculus for was there something with the economics of juice bars that seemed was economics in the business important to you or just your personal passion? Of course, the intersection is important too. But, like, what did one factor dominate?
Heather Stevenson:Well, we certainly thought that we would, like, make a lot of money on the juice bar, but it wasn't like we thought we were, you know, starting the next Facebook or anything. It seemed like an opportunity to do something that mattered in terms of bringing healthy food to Boston, which is not necessarily known for having the healthiest food, although it has a lot of tasty food in a way that would, you know, create a lifestyle that we thought would be better and would also make, you know, plenty of money. But it wasn't it wasn't something that we started just for the money or even, like, with the attention of getting rich the way a lot of people do startups.
Khurram Naik:Was there, like, a decision point at which you remember this crystallizing your head like, hey. They because I think a lot of people have videos like this. Like, it's such a cliche for a professional, but, I wanna open a coffee shop or or whatever. Just, like, some something like that. Like, what what was it that made this crystallized to you?
Khurram Naik:Like, oh, no. This is, like, actually something I can and I'm going to do now.
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. I mean, so we joked about opening a food based fitness. We joked about a restaurant for years before we actually did anything, and it was never serious. Neither of us is a trained chef. Opening a full restaurant is very expensive, very challenging, not something that we were well positioned to do.
Heather Stevenson:And then we were training for
Khurram Naik:an
Heather Stevenson:ultramarathon and eating a lot of acai bowl, drinking juices and smoothies in New York and really loving it. And we kind of that's when we just noticed that there was this gap in Boston. We were living in New York at the time, but traveling home to Boston all the time as well. And so it was like a a gradual crystallization of, okay, maybe we could do a food based business. Maybe it could be a juice bar.
Heather Stevenson:And I don't think we really felt totally sure we could do it until we played around with some numbers in one of those, like, business plan prepopulated spreadsheet that supposedly helps you plan your business. And as it turns out, all the numbers were completely wrong, both in terms of costs. Our costs were way, way higher than we predicted, but our revenue was far higher too. So that was good. But I think it was when we really started playing numbers that we felt like maybe it was possibility.
Khurram Naik:Well, on that note, I mean, like, let's say you're in a launch of juice business today. Like, what would you do differently?
Heather Stevenson:Well, we saw this gap in Boston. And and now having run a juice bar in Boston, understand the reason for that gap. And at least part of it is that the winters here are brutal, and nobody wants a smoothie in the winter. I love smoothie. I don't even want a smoothie.
Heather Stevenson:Alright. You want a smoothie in the winter. Yeah. I don't I don't think I would actually do that much differently in terms of the startup. I think there were a lot of things we did right.
Heather Stevenson:There were things we did wrong along the way of actually operating it that probably could have made it more successful. But we also didn't end it just because it didn't do well financially. It did fine, but not well enough to be worth it. And yeah. I mean, there there were there were other reasons to to leave.
Heather Stevenson:We've talked about some of these before, but that it was a a drain, a stressor. You know, we had left Big Law to open this juice bar thinking it would maybe create a better lifestyle because eventually we'd have managers in place and we'd have all these stores and they would really run the day to day. And that was sort of true. But, like, when a pipe bursts, nobody cares about that more than the owner. Right?
Heather Stevenson:Even if the manager is doing their best, you really need to be available. And so some of the reasons for ending it weren't so much a business failure as realizing I didn't wanna be in the juice bar business. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:Okay. So it's just like where so it sounds like really a running thing so far has been that you have done a good job of tuning into yourself to figure out, hey. Like, how do I wanna allocate my attention and my professional talent?
Heather Stevenson:I think that's right. And I think what I've wanted has evolved over time a lot, which leads to the drastic changes that have happened over the course of my career from Big Law to Juice Bar to in house at, you know, in a smaller company at a media company, Boston Globe, and now to Inventor Capital where it's a much heavier demand on my time. And it you know, I I believe in seasons, right, seasons of life. And so I think surfs is really good for that season, and I feel really proud and happy that it really was one of the first to bring juice to Boston. There's a lot of juice bars in Boston now.
Heather Stevenson:That's great. Some of them do really well. Some of them are new every two years, and I think that's probably gonna continue to be the case for a while. I feel happy about all that, but also, you know, kind of glad that that part of my life is behind me.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. Wait. Remind me again when you launched Thurs?
Heather Stevenson:November 2014, which was the start of the snowiest winter in Boston's recorded history. Every Monday, it felt like we had a blizzard, and our trucks couldn't get through with the, like, fruit because you need fresh fruit all the time, or our employees couldn't get to work because the subway shut down. It it was a a challenging first winter.
Khurram Naik:Well, it it is so funny because because, you know, my professional history is actually, like, weirdly tied to yours because in the time frame you launched, I started going to Boston for a series of depositions pretty consistently as as litigator, and I was in Chicago. And so one of the things that we appreciate about Boston in part because of you is that there were more cheeseburgers proportionally than Chicago, which is a much larger city. And so that was something that struck me to say, okay. Boston might be a more attractive place for me to be than Chicago. And so then I did end up, you know, moving to Boston to to join a firm there.
Khurram Naik:So that's that's one bit of interesting coincidence. And the other bit of interesting coincidence, which I think we'll get into the significance of for you later, it comes from social media, which is I I really love you know, you'd yeah. One of your swings you had, there was this, like, mango oats smoothie, which was, like, just a really unusual combination. Those are two food groups that I would never think to put together. And, actually, my wife really loves your juice bar the most.
Khurram Naik:And so we were seeing each other long distance, and we would always go there. And so that was kind of the smooth out I was getting. And at one point on at Google, we had a blog have Google has a blog, and so I did contribute to it for biosimilars and which is a kind of drug product. And so we had profiles on a different contributor. That was a very active contributor.
Khurram Naik:Really enjoyed publishing there, and then enjoyed the active publishing as a lawyer. And so at one point, I was the featured editor, and so they have a little blurb about a little interview. And so I can't remember what the prompt was, but I decided to share this mango oat smoothie, which I pretended I'd come up with, but I didn't actually kind of came up with it. But, like, I just
Heather Stevenson:said Plummet.
Khurram Naik:That I like to make now, which I was making. But I I've learned from from Durkis. And so so then, like, I decided to get on LinkedIn and share that. Like, my my posts on LinkedIn were very vanilla or classic baiwa. Here's a firm update.
Khurram Naik:Here's a firm update, and that's it. Just never deviate on the lines there. This is the first time I ever decided to have some flavor on LinkedIn. And then I actually had a and more as I used to work with who reached out to me about this and said, oh, yeah. I love that that that comment you made about that smoothie.
Khurram Naik:So, like, it worked. Like, it got some of the attention that I knew. So in a couple of different ways, your your juice bar has influenced me professionally.
Heather Stevenson:I love that. I also love that smoothie. Our our version the first version was called the Peruvian pick me up. And I can't remember if you added this to your, but it also had maca, which I was a huge fan of at the time. It was supposed to help with, like, energy regulation.
Heather Stevenson:And when I made the smoothie for myself, I would add almond butter. But, yes, great smoothie. Right.
Khurram Naik:And I did the same. I would also add almond butter when I made the smoothie. Yeah. So so okay. So let's talk about the decision to leave then.
Khurram Naik:So then Sure. What what was there a you know, we talked about crystallizing moment. Was there a crystallizing moment for that for you?
Heather Stevenson:To leave first?
Khurram Naik:Yes.
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. So it was kind of phased. So in 2017, my son was born. And I initially had this plan that literally everybody told me wouldn't work, but I thought would work. I would be his full time caretaker, you know, while my husband was at a more traditional job, but no nanny or support, and then also keep Thirst running because we had managers.
Heather Stevenson:We had two stores at the time, managers in each location, and I thought this was a great plan. And, of course, it was a terrible plan. I was exhausted. I felt like I was doing a terrible job as a business owner and terrible job as a mother, and it it didn't work. So that was the first thing that happened.
Heather Stevenson:And my husband and I talked about it and decided that in around, like, December 2017, so our son was three months, that I would try and find a job around when he turned one year old. Because then we would be able to thirst is not kicking off enough money to pay for childcare, but I would be able to dedicate some time to that job, a little bit of time to thirst. Our son would be well taken care of. I was quickly realizing that in addition to my plan being a bad one, I was just not meant to stay at home full time. And so we had this whole whole plan, and I ended up just getting really lucky.
Heather Stevenson:And rather than when he was born and finding a job, I started kind of, like, poking around on what was available and found something, like, two weeks after we decided that I would go back to work. So in January 2018, I started as an in house lawyer at the Boston Globe. So I was doing that in addition to, you know, being a mom but with help, and also we were still running thirst. It got to be a lot. It was actually much better than trying to be, you know, full time stay at home mom and full time stay at home business owner, but it it was a lot.
Heather Stevenson:And Thirst was profitable, but also in this scary position where, like, a few bad months could have put us in the red. And so first, we closed our Weldley location because of kind of dis disagreements with our landlord. We'll just leave it at that. And then at the end of our Boston lease, which was in November 2019, we decided not to renew. And it was largely just because, you know, I had a full time other job.
Heather Stevenson:My husband had a full time other job. And thirst as much as we had loved it was causing a lot of stress. And it turned out to be a very, very just pure lucky decision because as you know, March 2020, Boston shuts down for the next, you know, eighteen months. Took them, I think, three years to get a new tenant into that space. But, you know, it was kind of a gradual decision and evolution.
Heather Stevenson:There was really no light bulb moment with shutting down thirst.
Khurram Naik:And so in making a decision, like, were there so, you know, you you ran into, you know, challenging issues with with management, with with with with, you know, counterparties like the landlord. Are there any principles from any of these that you like, hey. What what what this category of kinds of issues that businesses run into or, let's say, forms of conflict, if you wanna think in terms of, like, a litigator, What are they are there any enduring principles they use today? Maybe just beyond work or at work.
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of kind of lesson learned, some of which could probably be put into principles. One is you have to be really clear on your why of why you're doing something. And for Thirst, it was this combination of passion project, and it was supposed to be our job. And I think we should have raised prices a lot earlier than we did and probably should have paid our employees less than we did.
Heather Stevenson:Although, I would never have wanted to do that. But, you know, had we done that, we would have looked a lot more a lot like other similar companies in the area, and we probably would have been more profitable maybe to the point where it would have been worth the risk to keep Thirst open. I don't know. That's kind of one thing. I think in terms of the conflict planning for conflict, which is something we do as litigators anyway.
Heather Stevenson:It's almost funny to me some of the situations that we ended up getting into with Thirst because I know better. But, yeah, planning for the worst case scenario from day one. So, you know, assume that everything that could go wrong will when you're negotiating any agreement is also key. But a lot of it is just it's not so much, you know, a a principle or something went wrong. It's just like the the time came and went, and now it's over.
Heather Stevenson:At least it's how how I look at it.
Khurram Naik:Do you have a point of view on the boarders having side businesses?
Heather Stevenson:I think it's great. I mean, I think it's important to understand why you're having the side businesses. But I think being a multidimensional human rather than just a lawyer is really valuable both to people's happiness and even to their effectiveness as a lawyer because it's a lot easier to make kind of principled logical decisions when your whole identity isn't wrapped up in being a lawyer. You know, a a question that I always have when tell someone tells me about a side business is, you know, why? Do you do it for fun?
Heather Stevenson:Do you do it for money? Do you do it because you are planning an eventual exit? And then I think most con or concerningly, really the only one that's concerning, do you do it because you're unhappy and you're just trying to fill up all of your time so that you don't have time to sit with your thoughts? Which that one's concerning. The others, it's sort of like you you do you if you know?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. That's good. And then how did you how did a former litigator who ran a juice bar end up at as an in house lawyer at a media company?
Heather Stevenson:Randomly as it feels like my whole career has gone. So as I mentioned, December 2017, started kind of looking around what was available for Boston legal jobs. I had never practiced in Boston. I had only practiced in New York. So I really had no sense of even, you know, what the the market looked like.
Heather Stevenson:Things are just different. I knew I didn't wanna go back to a firm. And I'd been at actually, like, a political event, and a friend of a friend had joked, oh, you know, you should you should come work for me. He's a a GC of a local company. And we talked about it, and he ended up not having anything that was a good fit, but it got me kind of on the idea of exploring what it might need to be in house, which was really not something I'd ever given that much thought to.
Heather Stevenson:Like, even when I had initially left SNC and thought about other options, I hadn't really explored what it meant to be an in house lawyer. And so I saw this job at the Boston Globe that seemed cool. I mean, having grown up in Boston, the Boston Globe is a big deal. It's our local paper. It covers all our local sports.
Heather Stevenson:We care about it. And the job was actually not that interesting itself. It was, like, reviewing and negotiating all of their basic contracts. So everything from, like, the ink that they use to print their newspapers to, you know, more substantive licensing agreements and that type of thing. And so I was mostly attracted by the brand, and also the general counsel who I knew a bit previously.
Heather Stevenson:And so I saw the job on Indeed, I think. Was that what it was then? And reached out, and I actually had a connection to him. He had worked with my mom. And so I said, you know, will he talk to me?
Heather Stevenson:And she's like, I don't know. Sure. Let me see. So he agreed to talk to me, and his initial reaction was, I don't think you wanna do this job. I was like, well, what do you mean?
Heather Stevenson:Like, well, I just need somebody to review and negotiate contract. You're used to this, like, fairly complex securities litigation. You've been doing all this interesting stuff standing up your own business. I I I don't know if this is for you. And I was like, I I wanna do it.
Heather Stevenson:I will do it well. I can do it. I've been negotiating contracts for bananas. If I can negotiate a contract for banana, I think I can negotiate contract for ink for your paper and convinced him to hire me for, you know, significantly less than what you would pay to a first year associate, more like paralegal. But it was great.
Heather Stevenson:And I only did the contract work exclusively for about a month. I just kept raising my hand after that. And so the job that I actually did at the Globe, which was fantastic, and I I loved and actually never really planned to leave, was nothing like the job that had been described when I first applied.
Khurram Naik:And what did that job evolve into?
Heather Stevenson:So when I left, I was VP and deputy general counsel. The general counsel was by that point also in, like, a co business role where he was developing their new media arm. And so I was doing basically everything and anything that he didn't have time for. So that was everything from, like, public records requests to overseeing someone else who was doing the regular, you know, contract negotiations to employment work, to licensing. It was very broad and very interesting because the Globe was at such an interesting time in its history where the local paper in so many ways is dying, but the Globe is not.
Heather Stevenson:And it's finding ways to make sure it doesn't. And so being part of the team that was trying to do that was really exciting.
Khurram Naik:And how did you I mean, these are brand new practice series. Like, how did you pick up these new skills and the confidence to say, okay. Yes. I can take that on.
Heather Stevenson:I think a lot of it is came from thirst. You know, I had no business starting a juice bar. I had a lemonade stand when I was, you know, five, and somehow that translates into a natural goose bar. So a lot of it was once you've figured out that you know how to figure out random things, that becomes a lot easier. And then I also had some really good support and mentorship at the Globe, both from Dan, the GC, and they had some really fantastic outside counsel.
Heather Stevenson:Guy named John Albano, who basically knows public records work in Massachusetts as well as anyone and who kind of taught me enough that I could take that over, which was a really specialized but also super interesting field of work that I did a lot of and got into there where it was basically, you know, supporting the reporters in their efforts to get the public records from various government entities in the state. It's like state BOYA Yes. To which they're legally entitled, but which often the government puts up a fight, and that's typical. And you have to make all the arguments, and there's all these, you know, exemptions to deal with. It was super interesting, and John really helped me with that.
Heather Stevenson:And then, you know, at a certain point, you learn you know, I've learned juice bars. I've learned public records. I've learned licensing and IP. And at certain points, like, okay. There there are many things that I don't know, but I I know how I can learn things, and that made it a lot easier over time.
Khurram Naik:You feel like you like, is there a playbook you can share from how how you learn new things?
Heather Stevenson:If you have an expert to learn from, that is, I think, one of the best first or second steps. You know, take an hour with them and ask them how to learn that particular area. And that is what I did with John who gave me a bunch of briefs that had been filed with the court and said, you know, like, go read these, plus go read all the cases they cite, and you'll pretty much be able to figure things out. That was specific to public records. Right?
Heather Stevenson:But an expert in a different area can give you the playbook for that. Maybe it's reading aspects of the Delaware code, whatever the thing is. And then the other way that I learn is just from reading widely. Not everybody learns that way, but I do really well. I loved school.
Heather Stevenson:I loved, like, textbooks. And so I love things like I have practical law now. I think it is so valuable from blog posts. You know, you you have to get this initial very basic level as soon as possible, as soon as you know that you need to know something. And then it's just a question of starting to do.
Heather Stevenson:I think doing early is important as well, although you obviously need to know something before you can do. But, yeah, I think those those are the biggest things. It does vary a little bit from area to area.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. And then, you know, you mentioned that you're well, I guess we can talk about the influence that your parents had shortly. But, I guess, you then started to build this name for yourself for you know, as someone who can pick up your areas within the globe. What how did you transition to base to be I I feel like I saw you on LinkedIn as someone who started to talk about the transitions you made. That's how I got to know you initially and and learn some of these parts of your story.
Khurram Naik:How did you come to start sharing your story on LinkedIn?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. So I realized pretty early on at the globe that I love being in house. I would probably be in house for the rest of my legal career, and that, you know, that was where I wanted to be. And I also realized that I love the Globe, didn't really wanna leave, but would probably never be its general counsel because Dan is only four years older than I am. And he also left the globe and will probably never leave it, which is great.
Heather Stevenson:I mean, having a team that is that loyal is amazing for a company. So but I had a problem because nobody in Boston knew who I was. Or if I did, they knew me as, like, the juice bar lady, not a lawyer the way people in New York had. So I initially started posting on LinkedIn along with going to local bar association events just to start to build a local network. This was pre COVID, so people, like, got jobs locally too and, you know, went into offices and all those things.
Heather Stevenson:So I I initially started just because I wanted people to know who I was, and I wanted to know who they were in the the legal world in Boston.
Khurram Naik:And then how did it kind of evolve over time? Because now I think you're very prolific and known for big picture ideas. Like, what what what what was the through along the way to to that?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. So I started just to to meet people locally, and it turned out that I was connecting with people, you know, kind of all over the country and really enjoying it. And that the posts that seemed to resonate the most and that I enjoyed the discussion around the most were really around the bigger picture thoughts. How do I think about being an in house lawyer? How do I think about transition?
Heather Stevenson:What's the role of failure and success rather than, like, what does this aspect of the public record law mean, or how should we interpret this piece of copyright? So it was fortunate because people liked the same things that I liked talking about, and so it kind of just went from there. I have experimented over the years with posting more often, less often, commenting more, less, But I'm kind of now at this cadence of once a week, which I find, you know, isn't enough that I think I'm still on people's radars, still getting the chance to have great discussions, try and get on there and comment on other people's posts and, you know, meet new people more than once a week. But also, I'm not giving a ton of my time or energy to LinkedIn. I'm using it as a tool to meet people and learn from people, but it's not really about LinkedIn.
Heather Stevenson:It's just kind of a way a way to learn and grow my community.
Khurram Naik:Do you have tips for other people who wanna become more active on LinkedIn than due to what you're what you just described?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. I mean, I think for most people, just starting to talk about their personal stories is a really easy, surprisingly effective way to start to build a community on LinkedIn. I think for most of us, our stories feel like they wouldn't be that interesting because we lived them. But if you actually start talking about it, you'll find that people are fascinated by them because of the similarities or the differences or whatever it is. So sharing about your personal experience, I think, is great.
Heather Stevenson:Sharing about how you think about things, I think, also is really interesting because it starts interesting conversations and allows you to build real relationships over time with the people who you're engaging with. It's obviously different for in house lawyers who are probably just looking to kind of meet people and grow communities than law firm lawyers who may be looking for clients. But for in house, just having these discussions and meeting people is fun, makes the practice feel more rewarding, and can have kind of unexpected benefits that you may or may not be looking for. So it's worth just starting to talk. You know, I I had said I was never planning to not never, but I wasn't planning to leave the globe anytime soon.
Heather Stevenson:And I ended up getting my current job largely because of LinkedIn. A woman who had helped me redo my resume for just like a side writing professor job I was doing, who I liked, and we talked from time to time, but not often. Knew my boss who was hiring at Red Cell, and he reached out to her and said, you know, I need an in house lawyer who has also been in big law ideally and run a business. She was like, oh, Heather's been talking about this on LinkedIn. Let me connect you.
Heather Stevenson:And it turned out to be, like, a really great fit that she she certainly wouldn't or wouldn't have been likely to think of me had I not stayed top of mind by talking about this so frequently.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I love that. And and then how did you size up? I mean, you love the globe. Great experience.
Khurram Naik:Yes. You recognize that, you know, you know, you're gonna be to see anytime soon. But how did you evaluate this opportunity whether it made sense for you?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. So when she first reached out, I looked at the website for RedZone. I was like, nope. Nope. Definitely not gonna do this.
Heather Stevenson:At the time, it looked very different than it does now, but it was a bunch of, like, men, former government officials with whom I didn't necessarily share political leanings, looked a little think tankish. Decided to talk to the guy who would be hiring me and completely changed my mind once I heard about what they were actually doing. So what Redcel does is build and invest in, you know, national security and health care companies that are using AI and tech. And what what's was so cool about it to me was that I did love Thirst, and I did love building a business. It just hadn't quite worked out.
Heather Stevenson:But this was an opportunity to help build a bunch of businesses as a lawyer. So that was one thing that was really big. The other was that as much as I love the globe, it could feel slow moving at times. There were places where we're racing ahead trying to, you know, innovate, and that was great. But, also, it's a, you know, 250 year old or whatever it is paper that has some entrenched processes can be a little slow, and I knew that going to Red Cell would be different than that.
Heather Stevenson:And then I did wanna be a GC eventually. I hadn't really planned on it as early as it ended up happening, but it just felt like kind of an opportunity I'd been looking forward to coming early. And so I decided to go for it. Telling Dan, my boss at the club, really was not fun. I felt terrible, but he, of course, was excited for me.
Heather Stevenson:But, yeah, in the end of it and once I understood the opportunity, it was an easy decision largely just because of the ability to participate in building businesses while also being a lawyer, combine the two things I wanted to be doing.
Khurram Naik:What did being a GC mean to you? Like, what what what was significant or important about that for you?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. So as not the GC, you're obviously doing legal work with, hopefully, you know, the business in mind, but you're not always in the room for some of the big picture business y business strategy decisions. As a GC, you are or at least hopefully you are. And I think that's just really fun, and it makes the role more rewarding. And it also takes out some of the frustration when, you know, you get to be there and share your view upfront, and you can at least sometimes avoid the business doing something that creates legal work that didn't make sense or legal challenges later, or at least people know about it, You know, when when they're doing something that's gonna create regulatory challenges or compliance issues or whatever, at least it's being planned for because you are in the room, and it's also, like, in your head so you're emotionally prepared for it.
Heather Stevenson:I also like managing and, like, mentoring people, and my team right now is very small. But I like that aspect of being a GC of getting to kind of, like, grow a team with me.
Khurram Naik:You know, I went and double blind to the globe. What was the biggest challenge for you when you moved into the the GGC role and and and had taken on? Like, at some point, you learned how to to learn all these new areas, But what was the biggest challenge you had to overcome in that transition?
Heather Stevenson:Within the globe from, like It's a good question. When the title actually changed, it didn't feel like anything because the role had kind of been evolving and the title followed. But it it was a challenge to figure out how to be strategic in a way that made sense. So I think I've talked to you more before about how I, you know, tried to get involved in business meetings and understand what people were trying to do and all that early on. And that's important, I think, in any role regardless of your seniority level or role as an in house lawyer.
Heather Stevenson:But as you move into more senior roles, you have to do that, but also in a way that is more strategic in terms of understanding the weight of what you're saying. So, like, if if legal says, oh, that's a good idea or that's a bad idea, it can be taken very seriously in ways you might not want it to. Almost like the CEO has to be careful about what they say. If you are a senior lawyer talking to a junior developer, you might just be brainstorming, but you have to be cautious about doing that. And then, also, as I moved into the DGC role, I was, you know, managing a team and helping to allocate their resources and time and make sure we were kind of focusing our priorities in ways that aligned with what the globe was trying to do, and that required coordination, obviously, with Dan, our actual GC, and with the, you know, broader team.
Khurram Naik:And then similarly, what was what was the the the biggest transition or challenge in beyond the the GC role at this fund?
Heather Stevenson:I'm more than two years in, and I still feel like I'm drinking from the fire hose. And I think that's kind of the nature of the business we're in. We keep doing more and more, but the challenge was was and continues to be appropriate prioritization. There is a lot of work that needs to get done, but we all have to be careful as, like, a whole legal team and even broader red cell team about making sure that we're also pausing to to think about making sure that as we race ahead, we're racing in the right direction. So I think that's one of the biggest things.
Heather Stevenson:And then there was also a steep learning curve at the beginning for just big learning about corporate government governance in Delaware c corps, and, you know, issuing equity and all these things that I hadn't really done. I've seen the backside of it when I was at Sullivan and Cromwell dealing with shareholder derivative suits and securities litigation. But there there was there were new areas of substantive law that I had to learn while also figuring out how to be a GC.
Khurram Naik:And then how do you allocate your attention between you you mentioned that there's this intersection of legal issues and business issues that you get to dive into. How do you allocate your attention between those two?
Heather Stevenson:I don't necessarily think of it as separate most of the time. I mean, there are there are times when I'm just sitting there literally like I was saying before, reading practical law or reading a new opinion that may change how we interpret something or learning about corporate transparency. Yeah. But for most of the time, when it's thinking about when it's thinking, it it's how do these pieces fit together? So it really you know, if we want to be able to use this IP in these three companies, but also be able to sell that company ahead of this company, how do we need to structure that?
Heather Stevenson:Right? And that is legal and business. And you can't really you can't you can't separate one from the other.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. And you you mentioned the globe is like this, like, very old institution, and Redtail is considerably newer. And by nature of the business, they probably have very different risk profiles. Like, how did you get comfortable with you know, like, how to advise on on risk, you know, comparing to the globe to today?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. It it it is very different. Right? So at the Globe, you know, we kind of had set amounts of risk we were willing to take on certain things, but we also weren't doing that many things that were all that risky, at least that I was involved in. I would say some of the new media work that my boss was doing probably did involve more risk just because it was newer and the law was less developed.
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. I mean, we are constantly talking about how to manage and balance risk at Red Cell and our portfolio companies. And there are some places where we will, you know, draw a clear line. We will not violate the law, which sounds like, yeah, obviously, Heather. But for example, we have this company that is now a platform for obtaining psychedelic assisted therapy.
Heather Stevenson:Only psychedelic assisted therapy that is legal in The United States, meaning federally and state. So right now, that's just ketamine. But figuring out, like, in the beginning of, well, what if we started an Ibogaine facility in Mexico? It's legal there. That type of thing was a real challenge, and we just have to weigh business upside versus legal risk.
Heather Stevenson:So, ultimately, some of those things we decided didn't make sense because it was hard to even with the with that example, even though it's legal to do that in Mexico, building that into our overall business strategy, repatriating that money was gonna be very challenging. Wasn't really, like, who we wanted to be as a company. We wanna be fully on the side of the law. But then when there's things like grayer areas, we just have to have discussions about it. There are certain places where courts haven't opined, where the law isn't fully developed.
Heather Stevenson:It's like everything around AI is new. And it's just important on aligning everyone, including our insurers, in some case, around what we're doing.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. You mentioned the globe. It was an institution that you buy into your group loving. And so there's, you know, that you had a certain level of business and consumed the business work product that way. Let's say with psychedelics, do you feel like it would be beneficial for you to consume a legal psychedelic to really understand the business?
Heather Stevenson:That's a great question. So what we're doing or what Tara is doing is ketamine assisted therapy for treatment resistant depression and PTSD because I don't have either of those things. No. If I did, I would absolutely give it a try. And we I mean, I I know lots of people who do, and it's say it's changed their lives.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. So at this stage in your career, like, what is the thing that you're most excited about in, say, the say, year time horizon?
Heather Stevenson:So, you know, I I'm a little over two years in, and red cell is totally different than it was one year ago and two years ago. And I I think we're gonna be something really different and really cool in another year. I am excited for how we are not just building companies that make a difference, which is so important, but from a legal perspective, we're starting to really think strategically about how the different companies can interact with and be set up in ways that benefit each other so that even if they are independent companies, we're creating this, like, you know, more powerful hold than the sum of the parts. And we haven't quite figured everything out yet, but we're going in that direction. And I'm really excited to to take it there and to see where we go.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. I guess at this point, do you feel like nothing about your career can surprise you at this point? There's there's no no career decision you can make given how how how disparate the different paths have been. Nothing you could use to would surprise us in the coming years.
Heather Stevenson:The only thing that would surprise me would be going back to the law firms. Yeah. Not nothing could surprise me. And I think that's cool. I mean, I I feel like I could not literally do anything, but I kind of feel the flexibility to do whatever I want.
Heather Stevenson:Having left the law, having left, like, a prestigious big law job for thirst, which is admittedly, you know, not prestigious, very risky, very, like, hands on dirty,
Khurram Naik:you
Heather Stevenson:know, like, covered in fruit juice all day. If you can do that, like, what what what can't you do? And so it's a really cool place to be.
Khurram Naik:Can you talk about that? Because we talked about the finances of making the decision. But, like Yeah. Talk to you about the status issue because that's so huge. Right?
Khurram Naik:I mean, like, you just saw up in Cromwell litigation in New York. You're in Manhattan. Beautiful office. You know, you've got your own office. All these trappings of success.
Khurram Naik:You know, and you went to Columbia. Some of your peers are like, almost all of your peers are in political institutions, and that's your entire reference group. How did you get over that status hit to to watch this, like, no name juice bar in Boston?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. So I'll tell you. When I when I was first making the decision to do Thirst, I didn't really think about it, and I couldn't tell you why. Like, I the saddest thing just didn't occur to me. I started to feel it as former colleagues would come in to say hi and support us, and we're completely there and being kind and in no way judgmental.
Heather Stevenson:But they'd be there in there, like suits, and I'm there in my baseball cap and oversized T shirt. Or we would do catering orders to some of the Boston firms, and I'm literally going in through the service entrance with, like, my cart of juice. And that was briefly hard, but also I was doing what I wanted to be doing, and I knew that. And I was kind of too busy for the first year to worry about that or to think really about much of anything other than getting through the day. I mean, I was I was exhausted.
Heather Stevenson:It wasn't like a a healthy place to be long term, but it's kind of the the nature of starting a business. It was no no. It was fine. It's just not where you wanna be for years and years. So that by the time, like, things started to calm down, and I wasn't always the one, like, running across Boston with a cart full of juice, I was over it.
Heather Stevenson:Right? It was like, okay. I've done that. I have delivered to these people. I have worn my baseball hat around my, you know, colleagues in their fancy suits, and it it's okay.
Heather Stevenson:So I I don't have a really good answer other than, like, you just do it, and at some point, you realize it doesn't matter.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. And I I think what's interesting is I think that would be such a different story post pandemic where people's values change. And every and every aspect of that story, who's walking around in a suit that way? So if it's like everything about that story would be completely different post. So I really admire your turn during that, you know, pre pandemic.
Khurram Naik:But I feel like the if you were if you were going through that experience three years later or whatever, very different experience.
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. I I I think that's totally true. I think there are a lot of people who value the line more with doing something like thirst after we experienced the pandemic. And I also think and I can't, like, put a weight on how much this matters, But I never started with a chip on my shoulder or anything to prove when I went into law. Like, from a very young age, everyone always told me and society told me and my parents told me, like, you'll you'll be whoever you wanna be.
Heather Stevenson:You'll do whatever you wanna do. And so nobody was, like, surprised when I got into Columbia or went to SNC or any of those things just because of, like, the opportunities that I had had growing up. And I think that that made it easier for me in some ways to do something different both because I hadn't it's not that I haven't worked hard as hard to get there, but I'd always expected to get there.
Khurram Naik:Yes.
Heather Stevenson:And because I always felt like I can go back.
Khurram Naik:Yep. That's huge. And that that's the part of the story that I want that I alluded to earlier that I'd like to pick up because you mentioned your mom's lawyer. Your father's also as well. He talks more about those influences because, like because that easily could cut in both directions.
Khurram Naik:Right? I mean, it could cut in the direction of, like, oh, this pressure. Like, my parents, they've got entire careers out of this. Why am I different? You know, you could have felt all this pressure.
Khurram Naik:Tell me what was it about something about how they parented? Is it something that you observed along the way? What was it about that influence that had the outcome that you just described?
Heather Stevenson:Yes. Gosh. So many things. So my parents are both lawyers, as you said. My mom was a litigator.
Heather Stevenson:We are very or is a litigator. She's I won't tell you how old because she'd be mad, but she's old enough to be my mom, and she's still practicing. And she, like, loved work and loved trial work. And I watched that, and we're very similar. And growing up, I thought, I think I wanna do that too.
Heather Stevenson:That seems really cool. And they never pressured me to be a lawyer. They always said, like, you go do what you wanna do. If you wanna do this, that's great. You wanna do something else, that's great too.
Heather Stevenson:You know, I did teach for America after law school. At one point, I thought I do something related to urban studies, which was my undergrad major. They're fine with whatever. And then I got to SNC, and I was a litigator. And I was a litigator, but what I was doing was so completely different than what my mom was doing as a trial lawyer Boston where, like, the the relatively big cases actually go to trial, whereas these multibillion dollar securities litigations don't typically go to trial.
Heather Stevenson:And, you know, you would think with access access to lawyers and my family and my social networks, I would have realized this difference before I got there, but I didn't. So that was a a funny surprise. So that's one thing. When I told my parents that I was gonna leave Sullivan and Cromwell to start a juice bar, I think a lot of parents would not be pleased with that decision. My parents paid for all of my education.
Heather Stevenson:They paid for my undergrad and my law school. And they were just like, really? Are you sure? And I said, yep. I'm really sure.
Heather Stevenson:And they're like, okay. How can we help? And my dad, who was retired by this time, walked over and bought a smoothie almost every day. And and it was great because I got to see him, and he'd come in even when I wasn't there. And our manager would, like, text me pictures of him being like, dad was in.
Heather Stevenson:And my mom would cater smoothies for her practice group lunches. And, you know, I'm I'm lucky that way, but they've just always been super supportive. And I think that made a lot of these decisions easier. And, also, you know, I was talking before about the the value of not having your whole identity wrapped up in your legal career. And I think the fact that they never told me it should matter really helps too.
Heather Stevenson:I think a lot of people grow up hearing like, you're gonna be a doctor when you grow up or you're gonna be a lawyer or whatever the thing is. And they get there or they don't, but that's some they it's almost ingrained in them by that point that that's some key part of who they are or the key part, and I never felt that way about my career. It's one thing that I'm doing. Whether it's a lawyer or not, it is something. It is important.
Heather Stevenson:It is valuable. It is not the only thing.
Khurram Naik:You've you probably observed a lot of things about lawyers growing up that maybe now as a experienced lawyer, you can reinterpret those experiences. What are some interesting, like, reinterpretations of observations you made? And which was, you know, maybe certain aspects of practice have changed over time or or dynamics among lawyers have changed over time. But is there anything interesting there that you, like, look back now like, oh, I saw it this way back then, which was interesting itself, and actually I reexperienced it differently now that I experienced law?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. I mean, it's it's funny. Something that is kind of the the same but looks so different now versus watching, like, my parents and their friends growing up is how tight the legal community can be. And so I remember growing up and, like, seeing them have dinner parties with lawyer friends and judges and, you know, that was always a weird thing to me. And it's still a weird thing to me that lawyers and judges are allowed to be friends.
Heather Stevenson:Although we we know that the ethical ones have all sorts of disclosure obligations and accuse themselves and stuff like that. But looking at that then, I thought it was so weird. The all these these friendships. I thought that it was like a forced thing that lawyers had to hang out outside of work. And that's, like, the perspective of a a child, basically.
Heather Stevenson:But I I now see that there is this huge value in having relationships with your professional community and that I think lawyers are actually really good at that. And post COVID, some of that has moved online. And I actually think that's some of what I've gotten from LinkedIn is all these relationships with other lawyers who I may or may not see regularly. I I have some friends now who are, like, lawyer friends who I bounce ideas off of who I've literally never met in person. And that is kind of a both a similarity and a difference.
Heather Stevenson:And then just like an an interesting thing that I have observed that I think is a shift is that I do think lawyers used to wrap up more of their identity in who they like, in in being lawyers. And lawyers would often, you know, go to one firm and stay there for their whole career, and that was typical. And that's just not what it means to be a lawyer anymore. There are some, but there are so many more options. And so watching the the evolution of the profession has been interesting.
Khurram Naik:You know, I I think there's an interesting connection to make between two things that you've really underscored, which is the value of connections with other lawyers with separating lawyer from identity. Isn't that such an interesting combination of things to both believe in? What how do you connect those two concepts?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. Totally. Well, just like I don't think you should have one set of friends. Right? Like, I I think that we all have these different interests and strengths and weaknesses and needs.
Heather Stevenson:And one of those things that is in need and can become a strength is having a community of like minded people. And if you are currently a lawyer, a a good place to find at least some of that is with other lawyers. But, also, if that's all you have, if you lose the career or if you change your mind, then you're gonna be in a really tough place. So I don't think that it's contradictory. It's just different aspects of kind of, like, who we are and what we need.
Khurram Naik:And, you know, you you've talked about this concept of of lawyers should you know, it's good for lawyers to not have the entire identity wrapped up into their work. What happens when they do?
Heather Stevenson:You know, I have heard a a LinkedIn post about this the other day, and some of the reactions were really fascinating to me. I think when they do, they're in big trouble. A couple people said, and they didn't say it of themselves, so I I would like to talk to these people. But a couple people said, I have friends who live, breathe, love lawyering, and it's all they have. And if they lose one job, they'll find another.
Heather Stevenson:If they lose one case, they're down, but they're back up. And it's what makes them happy. That is interesting maybe to exist. I think more typically, it makes you make you unhappy and make makes it harder to make good decisions. Because if you think that fundamentally who you are is just a lawyer and then you take a hit, you lose a case, you lose a client, it's really hard to deal with.
Heather Stevenson:If you get to a point where maybe the position you're in no longer makes sense, it's harder to let go and say, maybe I should take a break from this role, take a break from lawyering. So I think it's a really risky position to be in, and I feel that way about just being almost anything. It's not just lawyers. Like, I would be similarly concerned about somebody just being a doctor.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. And how what were do you feel like have prescriptions for people for how do you, you know, not have all their identity and sense of self worth or attention or how any of those categories of things in being aware? Like, how are there is there a playbook or rules down that people can use for, you know, diversity in their identity or how how how else you frame that?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. I mean, I think it's at least two pieces. One is, like, the mental, how you think about yourself, and the other is what you actually do with yourself and your time, and they're related but not identical. So on the how you spend your time piece, because I think that helps with the mental, like, go do other things. If you don't have any hobbies anymore, well, what did you like to do when you're 10?
Heather Stevenson:I'm not the first person to say that, but literally, like, spend half an hour a week drawing or riding a bike or whatever, just doing something that brings you joy or you find interesting or that you're bad at but could be fun. Just to to be something other than, I mean, just a lawyer. And then the the mental piece, I think so much of it is just how you talk to yourself about yourself. So, you know, if you tell yourself you're just a lawyer, that's how it's going to feel. But, like, are you also a partner, a parent, a friend?
Heather Stevenson:Are you a member of certain communities in, you know, like, I don't know, church groups, political groups, civic groups, whatever it is, team. And, you know, identifying those things and just telling yourself, oh, yes. I am you know, I'm a lawyer and a mom. And for me, like, I'm a lawyer and a mom and a wife and a friend and a runner and someone who likes to travel and someone who likes to cook and all these things that go beyond just my professional identity, I think makes it a lot easier when any one thing, whether it's career or the some other thing isn't going right.
Khurram Naik:You mentioned yeah. I guess, essentially, you mentioned, you know, try things that you're not good at, which reminded me of of of, I guess, a core question I think I think about and for myself and others is, how do you think about your strengths as a lawyer? Like or excuse me, not as a lawyer, just professionally, generally. Like, what do you think about your core constantly? How do you think about that?
Heather Stevenson:Like, what are they, or how do I identify them? Or
Khurram Naik:Yeah. Like, how what would you say are your core competencies as a professional and say, hey, you know what? This is what is attributable to my of course, with luck, all that kind of stuff, privilege, and that stuff. The things that you have done that have generated success, what do you say? What do you think are the one or two or three things?
Heather Stevenson:Got it. I think a combination of approaching everything with a sense of curiosity and also willingness to work extremely hard. Putting those two together is a a key strength. I think one without the other doesn't definitely get you all that far. Because if you're curious, but you don't do anything about it, you're not really any better off.
Heather Stevenson:And if you're just grinding, you'll probably be an okay, like, junior to mid level person, but you'll never really progress because you always need someone to tell you exactly what to do. And then I think of myself as really good at kind of reading and reacting to and dealing with people. And I think that's important because so much of how we make huge strides as an organization, any organization, is as a team. And so by being able to kind of, like, be a good team player but also reactive to others can really add a lot of value there. And then I've said this before, but just, like, willingness and ability to to learn new things, I think, is key.
Khurram Naik:And we you know, you you kinda broke down the last one and and you're player there. Future anecdotes for the first two. Like, what are what are moments that can illustrate those conferences of yours?
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. So in terms of the combination of curiosity and willingness to work hard. I think an example without going into too much detail was recent not that recent, but, like, a year and a half ago structuring question where we had, like, a plan for how we did things, how we set up companies, you know, all the early stage stuff. And someone mentioned to me the way that a different company, a different incubator was doing it. And so I said, oh, that's interesting.
Heather Stevenson:Read something, saw something similar to what they were doing, and kind of one started going got curious, started learning about the different options, going down this rabbit hole. And then two, found a few good options, like, that that seemed to me could be work could be worth exploring more and actually put in the time to understand what they were, lay it out in a way for my colleagues that was understandable so they didn't have to, like, redo all the work I had done of learning about them. Pros, cons, comparison. And we ended up changing something about how we structure things in a way that should make our investors a lot of money.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm.
Heather Stevenson:That's an example. On the second one in terms of people, it's often you know how meetings can, like, be going really well and then suddenly they just, like, get off track and you you're not quite sure what happened, but, like, everybody's angry and frustrated? A lot of times on the second one is just being the person to literally say, like, okay. I think that we're all feeling frustrated. Here's what I'm hearing.
Heather Stevenson:Like, who hears something different? And it it it's not really a a special skill now that I think about it and describe it. It's more of, like, a a habit of being the person to be like, hey, guys. Let's pause. This is okay.
Heather Stevenson:We're together. How can we move on? And I think anyone can learn to do that. It can feel scary at first to be the one to kind of take control of any room, but you have to be able to do it, like, in in various situations, including sometimes, like, where there's power dynamics. Like, I'll do that even if I'm not the most senior person in the room.
Heather Stevenson:But just getting meetings back on track regularly is a good example of how being able to kind of, like, work work well together can help you turn, you know, what was gonna be a lost hour back into a productive one.
Khurram Naik:That's really good. And it seems like part of the I think it connects to the curiosity. I think it connects to the indifference to status is, like, what you just described about being indifferent to seniority, who's in control, whatever. Recognize that as not relevant to connecting people and and being a leader in that way. So that that's an interesting theme as well in in in your your professional approach.
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. And I actually think being the one to help, you know, in that specific event where you're just talking about getting things back on track is a great place where sometimes more junior people really can add value. Maybe they're not gonna stop a whole meeting and say, hey, guys. Everybody's frustrated. But to when it comes their turn to speak, just be the one to say, you know, I'm feeling like there is some confusion.
Heather Stevenson:Can I can I say back to you what I think I've heard so people can help correct me? And it's not really that they necessarily need to hear back what's been said. They're giving everybody the opportunity to kind of reframe, hear where things have been set out of frustration versus what's really meant, and get back on track.
Khurram Naik:That's really good. I like that. Well, this is awesome. I'm curious about, yep, how do you feel about in any given in your career or for other people, do you feel that people should have focus on their strengths, or, you know, to what extent should people show up weaknesses? Like, how do you how do you think about that?
Heather Stevenson:That's such a good one. I think, ideally, you should get into a role that allows you to use your strengths, not just because you're gonna be better at it, but because things are more enjoyable when you're good at them. You're gonna enjoy your core role. But then I think, again, depending on the role, there's a lot of value of going from bad to okay at the things that are weaknesses. And, it depends on your role.
Heather Stevenson:But I think if you can get into a place where you are this is for in house lawyers, really. I think it's different if you're in a firm. But for in house lawyers, you can get to a place where you the role really relies heavily on what you're best at and then increase the things you're bad at. You're much better positioned to be an overall advisor to the business, which is really what you want to be as an in house lawyer. The reason I think it's different for law firm lawyers is I think there's a certain value to being the absolute best at one random little piece of the tax code where you know people are gonna call you and maybe everybody's only calling you for one hour, but, like, you're adding a ton of value just to that.
Heather Stevenson:There aren't very many in house lawyers who can be that specialized, which is why we need to work on our weaknesses.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. That's great. I'm I'm also doubling back to something that's we we you you mentioned a little bit ago. You know, you mentioned this this post about lawyers identities and and some of the, you know, some of the surprising comments to that. What would you is there a LinkedIn post that you are most proud of?
Heather Stevenson:So I don't think it's necessarily, like, the best written post, but I have one that excites me the most, which is this post I first wrote several years ago. I don't normally repost my post, but I repost this one that starts, there's no such thing as two ninth to be a lawyer. And every time I post it, it gets thousands of reactions. It's gotten millions of views over the year. And I love, love, love that so many lawyers are like excited and agree on this idea that there's no such thing as too nice to be a lawyer.
Heather Stevenson:I definitely always wanna be a kind, respectful person who's, like, doing everything I can even when I am fighting with somebody who's not being nice to me to to to, like, be a good person in my work and in my personal life. And that's what the post is about. It's talking about how, you know, you can be nice while also negotiating very hard for your client. And you can agree to extensions and all sorts of things that make your counterparty or opposing counsel's life easier where it doesn't hurt your clients just because it's a good thing to do, and it's easy to say no, but you don't need to. And I love it because I like the idea of, like, a warmer kinder legal profession where we are respectful of each other even when we are in tough negotiations.
Heather Stevenson:But I also like it because I think a lot of the reactions are about how, like, lawyer anyone can be a lawyer. There's no set type of person that has to be a lawyer, which is, I think, really different than an idea that a lot of people grew up with of a particular, like, stiff man in a suit as what has to be a lawyer. So, yeah, that's probably my favorite of my posts.
Khurram Naik:Is there a post that you're surprised by in terms of how popular it is?
Heather Stevenson:What was it? I posted one the other day that I was surprised people like so much, but now I can't think of what it is. You know, I can't think of one, but I'll tell you. LinkedIn feels so random to me. A lot of the time, it is so hard to tell what resonate, but I'll run experience experiments so I don't repost a back post.
Heather Stevenson:But I if something seems weird and gets a lot of traction on a particular theme, sometimes, like, couple months later, I'll try again with that theme, And it works again. And it's so I I don't get it. But yeah. Oh, I remember the one, the recent one. It was about lawyers or service providers.
Heather Stevenson:And when we say, like, you know, let me know if you have any questions. You know, we have to mean it. And it was just funny how many people reacted to it. And I had posted something similar before and been surprised, and so this was a bit of an experiment. But, yeah, I don't know.
Heather Stevenson:I love starting conversations.
Khurram Naik:You mentioned, like, you so you wanna, like, process your fingers and no one's gonna follow-up on that. That's that's that's totally fantastic thing that no one talks about. But, yeah, that's that's what we'd be able to say. Let me know if you have any questions. Like, please don't bother me.
Heather Stevenson:Yeah. And people had all the thoughts. And, of course, a bunch of law firm lawyers be jumped in being like, of course, I'm open to questions. This is not for you because you like, most of you are billing hourly for those questions. This is about everybody else.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. Totally. Well, you know, I I'm really glad we took design to sit down because I think just your your worldview is so fascinating. I think you're such a warm and open person. So, I mean, I'm glad that I found you on LinkedIn.
Khurram Naik:I think you are one of my favorite people to follow on there. And I just think that you have such a fresh perspective, and I think you really are a vanguard for how people approach their careers, not just in the decisions you make, but even how to present it and share it with people. So I really appreciate you in that way.
Heather Stevenson:Oh, thank you. I love your posts. Love talking to you. Love this podcast, so thanks for having me on.
Khurram Naik:Sure.