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Candid conversations for the church. Host is Ardin Beech of Windsor District Baptist Church, Sydney, Australia. Co-hosted by Jonathan Hoffman.
And we are on fire. 2 in a row. This week at Windsor, we are back. Good morning, doctor j.
Jonathan Hoffman:Good morning. We're doing this at a different time of day, which kinda throws me off. I'm not exactly a morning person, but I do have my big cup of Starbucks.
Ardin Beech:So And this is morning. This is about as early as it gets.
Jonathan Hoffman:This is pretty early. We're pre 8 o'clock.
Ardin Beech:But we had to do it this way because we've got a guest coming up from the other side of the world.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yes. So stoked to have this guest. This is you're gonna hear an interview with pastor Lee Ekloff, pastor, author, speaker, also my old boss, Also, my former pastor, he was, the lead pastor at Village Church of Lincolnshire, which is the church that Joanne and I went to, when we when we were at seminary. And, I got to do an internship under Lee, and, yeah, I just really gleaned a lot from him and, his, you know, his ministry.
Ardin Beech:We're gonna have to change the name from this week. It winds into this week on earth just because we cover such a wide gamut.
Jonathan Hoffman:Well, it's a global brand.
Ardin Beech:You know.
Jonathan Hoffman:And if you're gonna have a global brand, you need to really push the market beyond Australia. Watch out, Spotify. We're coming. We're actually already there. We're just trying to just
Ardin Beech:trying to
Jonathan Hoffman:get a little hand up a little bit higher. Here we are. Here we are. You can find us. But having guests like Lee will actually go a long way toward that.
Jonathan Hoffman:Now we'll we'll put some links in the show notes, that have links to his book. So if there's, you know, things you wanna read. And as he said, if you subsidiary newsletters, Lee writes once a week for preaching today, and you can get his his thoughts and his insights there.
Ardin Beech:There's still plenty of stuff happening around the church, which is always great, but some sad news as well. We did lose a couple of members lately.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yes. We've, mourned the passing of, Enid Rothwell and Donna Crouch, and, it's been it was a real privilege to hold those memorial services here at WDBC. And I think for me, you know, it is different. We don't grieve like those who have no hope. And so it's been really, in a in a way that I think only makes sense to a Christian.
Jonathan Hoffman:It's been oddly comforting when we can come together and remember the the passing of these the these dear ladies. And what a what a great, you know, show up by the church to show, you know, how their support and to show their love and to show their care and to show that, you know, these women were intimately involved and part of our families. And, yeah, we see them as as family in Christ, and we look forward to the day we're gonna see them again.
Ardin Beech:It'll be like a the blink of an eye.
Jonathan Hoffman:That's right. That's right. Another reason that we're really excited to have pastor Lee on is just the way that pastors have shaped other pastors. And I'm really excited because, pastor Eddie, pastor Chris, and I have the opportunity to go away on a pastor's retreat. We're going way over the weekend over 30th June.
Jonathan Hoffman:Why are you looking at me with dagger eyes? You can't go live. What are you gonna do? What are we gonna do?
Ardin Beech:Is it just the 3 of you, or is it like a a Sydney Pastors retreat?
Jonathan Hoffman:No. It's just the 3 of us.
Ardin Beech:And and you just campfire? No food? No. You just gotta survive by your wits.
Jonathan Hoffman:This is not a wilder it's not a wilderness expedition. It's no. It's it's a time for us to, first of all, to take a step back, to have, you know, what, one of my supervisors calls balcony level conversations, to get off the dance floor as it were, get up in the balcony, and and sort of take stock of of things we see here in the pastoral ministry WDBC. It's a time for us to get aligned. It's time for us to to to sort of have a breath and a pause, and and really to come together before the Lord and evaluate maybe some of the bigger questions, some of the tougher things, that that really take coordination and better alignment.
Jonathan Hoffman:So, we're getting an opportunity to do that and and this conversation with with Lee just reminds me of, you know, that the strength of that dynamic when when you get time, you know, shepherd on shepherd, so to speak, to really encourage one another. It's it's quite a powerful thing. But don't worry.
Ardin Beech:We're not leaving you behind. I was not worried. You already planned a party.
Jonathan Hoffman:Put the Airbnb away. Well, that's the way. No. We're really excited because Nick Barber is gonna be coming. Nick Barber is a former pastor at Yassa Baptist Church.
Jonathan Hoffman:He does work now with the association. He's in the church consultancy. I'm actually gonna go see him later today. But Nick has kindly agreed to come and to be, sort of to lead the services on the 30th June. So very excited to have Nick.
Jonathan Hoffman:Looking forward to, yeah, hearing what he has to bring to our people.
Ardin Beech:Alright then. Well, how about we go to our guest now? I will let you do the introductions. He's coming to us live from the other side of the world, but he's an old friend of yours. You take it away, doctor j.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yeah. Well, I'm very, very privileged to welcome onto our show this week, pastor Lee Eclov. Lee, how are you?
Lee Eclov:I'm great. Now I'm great. I'm on the other side of the road. Like you said, it's, what, 12 hours difference or something like that? I heard it.
Jonathan Hoffman:That's right. Now, just a bit of context for those listening, and I probably should've done this in the actual introduction, but it argued you threw me for a loop there. Because you usually handle it. But but a bit of context for the introduction, so, Lee was pastor at Village Church of Lincolnshire, which was very near to the seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, where I, was training to be a pastor, where Joanna was working, at the time back in the early aughts, I think that's what they call it. Is that what the kids say?
Jonathan Hoffman:The early aughts?
Ardin Beech:No idea.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yep. Early 2000.
Ardin Beech:I'm not that cool.
Jonathan Hoffman:So so, back when we were there, pastor Lee, and his wife, Susan, were leading the ministry ministry there at Village Church and, very near and dear to us. I actually did an internship at Village Church under Lee. So, friend is a is a great term for me because this is someone I look up to as more of a mentor, you could say. But Lee, we're so so grateful that you're here. I I guess maybe start off with where are we reaching you at today?
Jonathan Hoffman:Where where are you?
Lee Eclov:Yeah. I retired, just before COVID struck us nearly dead. And, Lincolnshire is in the northern suburbs of Chicago. When I retired, we moved to the city of Rockford, Illinois, which is still within an hour of Chicago. So that's where we are.
Lee Eclov:And in retirement, I, preach here and there as I get the chance. I'm a writer for, Preaching Today, which is a branch of Christianity Today, publications. So I write a column every week that goes to thousands of pastors and church leaders. And, I kinda regard my primary goal is to make friends with pastors. So that's what I do.
Jonathan Hoffman:And you mentioned you retired just before COVID. Do you look at that as, wow. I dodged a I'm glad I was not in that chair when that happened.
Lee Eclov:Or Oh, absolutely. I just take it as an indication of how much God loves me and doesn't care about other pastors. I I definitely dodged that bullet.
Ardin Beech:How long would you say your career was up behind the pulpit?
Lee Eclov:I was a pastor. I became a full time pastor starting in December of 78, 1978. I didn't start preaching for 5 years. I desperately wanted to. I was an associate pastor.
Lee Eclov:I love preaching, but I really felt in even then, but particularly now, God had to train me to be a shepherd before he'd let me just preach because I wouldn't have been right. So I didn't start preaching, I when I became a senior pastor, lead pastor in a church in Pennsylvania in 1984. So I've been a pastor since 70, 9 basically. So close to 40 years. Yeah.
Lee Eclov:And I love the preaching the best.
Jonathan Hoffman:And you would have seen some ebbs and flows, I imagine, in that time. If you think back to when you started out and sort of what was what was in your heart, if you could go back and have a coffee with yourself, back when that associate was getting hired or when you were transitioning into that role, and you knew what was ahead, what would you say, hey, younger self, be sure you keep these things in mind.
Lee Eclov:Well, the biggest thing that hit me that I was unprepared for was I assume this should have been true where you are as well, but in the 1980s, suddenly churches started talking in what I'd call corporate speak. We started talking about vision statements, vision and goals, core values, stuff like that. That was absolutely unheard of when I was starting. And part of it, I think was that one phenomenon was the churches started to get big. You know, I would I don't know this for a fact, but I would guess in Chicago, the biggest church when I was in in the seventies and, you know, when I was in seminary and stuff, it was probably Moody Memorial Church connected to Moody's Bible Church.
Lee Eclov:I'd be surprised if there was a 1,000 people. Well, when you get churches in many places that are that big and bigger, they had to start thinking in somewhat corporate language, and it kinda took over. And the problem was for those of us who were 1 in smaller churches, but also just not wired for that. It was it was really hard. I it really drove me deep into a depression.
Lee Eclov:And, it was only reading all the books of Eugene Peterson and some others who spoke about the care of souls more than the metrics of ministry that I found help and, relief. But that was a constant, stressor in ministry for all my years. Our church in Lincolnshire was, under 200 people, so it wasn't big and it didn't really need all that to be effective, but that was the pressure and that was the hard thing to weather as a pastor because I'm kind of an artist at heart and I I didn't take to that. So that was, that was the hardest thing I think I faced in in just the ebb and flow of ministry.
Jonathan Hoffman:It's hard to see those those waves coming, I would imagine.
Lee Eclov:Right. Right.
Ardin Beech:What about on the other side? What about the best things you saw in those those 40 years?
Lee Eclov:The ministry, the pastoral ministry is not like any other work that anybody does. It's not like a doctor or a counselor or a teacher or a nurse or anybody. You live in people's front living room of people's lives and you know, it's day after day is ordinary, ordinary, ordinary, but along the way, you have watched people born, die, married, see come to Jesus, you see the changes those things make, you see these stressors, you see these saints who are extraordinary people, you can live with the the difficulties, the pain in the neck people that are part of every church except yours probably but, I think that drama that accumulates over the years and the the nature of the ministry is that you invest. I said I wrote some place, pastors are committed to getting rich slowly instead of getting rich quick. And, you know, gradually you do that.
Lee Eclov:I mean, Jonathan, to see you here after all these years, 20 years, and see you there and across all these miles, remembering you sitting in my office and we were talking about books and, you know, past training and stuff like that. This is enormously rewarding, you know, to have these Timothy's across the world. I had almost 25 interns just in my years in that church, not to mention a lot of other students who were in our congregation or I taught. That is so rich. That is so rich.
Lee Eclov:You know, I've got this heritage that I'm really grateful. This, Sunday in America is Father's Day. I don't know if you have that, but
Jonathan Hoffman:We do it.
Lee Eclov:And I realize September.
Ardin Beech:Yeah. It's usually it's usually forgotten. Mother's Day is the big one for us.
Lee Eclov:Yeah. Well here too fathers don't get a whole lot of credit, but I'm thinking about I'm preaching at this rural church Sunday, and I'm gonna talk about a grandfather's day message because of course there's no grandfather's not a father, but I'm particularly thinking about paul and timothy and This privilege that I've had of being a a father in a way to a lot of people, and I'm very grateful.
Jonathan Hoffman:I I can definitely attest to to the impact that, you know, that time had on my life. I can only imagine the, you know, the joy it is to see that from afar. I might probe a little bit about the preaching aspect because I know it's something that you loved. It's something you obviously write about weekly. Just a simple question.
Jonathan Hoffman:When you're listening to a preacher, how do you know if you're listening to a good one?
Lee Eclov:A good sermon is one that accurately helps us understand what a Bible text says. A fine sermon is one in my view that shows this pastor thought about this. He contemplated it. Eugene Peterson talked about contemplative exegesis. And there is a step that goes past explaining what the text says to contemplating it and kind of seeing how it opens within you.
Lee Eclov:It's almost like you take something in and it starts to kind of flower within you and you realize things more than the simple straightforward explanation of what these words mean. And then I have a love this is really extraordinary sermon, but I have a love for preachers who are really great with words and stories who kind of hook us with that gift. That is rare. I don't expect people that's something that you got it or you don't most folks don't have that But there are preachers who listen to you and go man What he just did with words what what he just did with that story. Oh, that was that was masterful and, that's a pretty rare thing.
Lee Eclov:But it's what I aspired to. I wanted to be that way. So
Ardin Beech:I imagine over the years, you would have had plenty of of really good ones. How do you know like, you finished your message. How do you know that you've hit the nail on the head?
Lee Eclov:Well, I think preachers have, in one sense, their own internal standards. I think I you know, that was a hard passage. I covered the text well. I got you know, when you're studying, you got all this, all this stuff sort of on your mind, in your desk. You got all these things that you could say, all these trails and everything.
Lee Eclov:And, there is a kind of satisfaction if you could put it together concisely that you had the guts or the discipline to put stuff away that you couldn't use. You know, I heard the expression you gotta kill your darlings for stuff that you just can't have even though you thought it was really cool. So there is that sense of a, homiletics, good preaching. That was a good sermon, but there is a sense of uh-uh more important sense of the spiritual impact and I don't always know that I don't think pastor can only I've had people say you preach the sermon such and such that changed my life, and I don't even know that I've preached a sermon. And I think the secret to that is, at first, it's were you faithful to the text?
Lee Eclov:Because the Bible itself is potent and it'll do its job just that. But I really think it's about how we pray in weaving prayer into the, you know, into the dough sort of the of the sermon. Our pastor here is starting a doctor ministry project and he wants to talk about write about how preaching and prayer interlace in advance of the preaching, in preparation of the preaching. And I think that's really a very important thing and it's hard. I always find it kind of difficult to, praying never came naturally to me.
Lee Eclov:It's always been a difficult thing. But I think there is this sense of something living when you have preached a prayed for sermon I don't think you always know what it does, but there's a kind of sense of satisfaction And I also know I'm gassed I'm tired When it's over I'm just emotionally tired I like to go home on Sunday afternoons and cut the grass because I could see the lines in the grass and I could feel something I could see was done. It was not working on the Sabbath. It it was it was relief to do something I could see because I was emotionally tired of the the wait as much as I enjoyed it.
Jonathan Hoffman:It's better than me. I would go home and watch Escape to the Country. That's about all I was good for if I had to cut to grass.
Ardin Beech:You'll be getting something for grandiads,
Jonathan Hoffman:though. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Well, what you may not know is Arden comes from a heritage of, he comes from a line of of ministers.
Jonathan Hoffman:Your dad what was your granddad's nickname?
Ardin Beech:Barbecue Beach. So, like, fiery words from the pulpit.
Lee Eclov:Really? Yeah. Yeah. Let us I was never that way. I I, my spiritual gift is encouragement, which I call grace giving.
Lee Eclov:And so I was generally aware that the folks sitting in front of me are there because they wanna be there. The people who you want to really blister aren't there. Right? And, I just it was the gift of God to me. I mean, I I don't take credit for it, but I've kind of wired for encouragement, grace giving to search out the gospel grace in every text.
Lee Eclov:I'm just getting ready to write where, you know, at the beginning where Jesus said at the beginning of his ministry, he gets up to read from Isaiah, the sovereign lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. And I was thinking about that at length a lot. I've been thinking about it. I thought, it's interesting that the stories that follow, none of them are actually about someone who was poor financially, even though they were all over the place. Of all the miracles Jesus did, none of them was putting money in somebody's pocket.
Lee Eclov:And the only really poor person identified in Luke, I'm not sure if I got this right, but that came to my mind was the story of the prodigal son. There's a guy who comes penniless, and that's part of the story. But obviously, we know it doesn't mean that there was really a guy like that. And I I thought about that as a, you know, writing to pastors that we're writing to people who are poorer than they know generally. And our job is sort of this weird thing of helping them see what poppers they are and then to say, how blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Lee Eclov:It's just kinda odd kingdom logic, I guess you'd say.
Ardin Beech:One thing that's really odd to us as Australians is the kind of evangelical political mix you get there in the US and just how politicized the whole thing is? What's what's your what's your stance on that?
Lee Eclov:Well, my own sense is it's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. Blasphemous in some cases. I mean, I don't remember anything in my life where among Christian people I have heard overt blasphemy like I have. That is attributing something divine to somebody other than God.
Lee Eclov:It has been dreadful in some places particularly. I don't think I can't imagine there's a city or a town in America that hasn't had division and people leaving churches and starting churches. You know, right at the beginning of COVID, I was, I happen to be reading maybe well, it's probably in May of that spring. I was reading in, Deuteronomy. I was retired.
Lee Eclov:I'm just sitting here. I have nowhere to go. I'm in a new city. I don't know anybody. It's like retirement on steroids.
Lee Eclov:And, but I read in Deuteronomy 8 where Moses is remembering, he's nearing his death. He says, remember how God led you all the way in the wilderness to see what was in your hearts. And I remember thinking, oh, that's what's going on here. And when you add up the the whole COVID thing and the mask fights and all that, then we had race just blow up in our faces because of the incident in minneapolis and then we had the election with all that that did I mean that was wrenching in churches. We saw what churches were made of and some were beautifully loving and patient and prayerful and grace giving to each other because these things are really hard.
Lee Eclov:I had a conversation yesterday with one of my oldest friends and we are just on opposite places and you know, I came in and I was sitting in the car when I was talking to him I came in and I was upset I was in turmoil I was sad and I thought that's what's happening and we handled it I mean we we know we're mature people. We have a good friendship, but we it was just, you know, I'm thinking how can you think like this and he's thinking, oh, Lee, how can you think like this? And I I just think it's really showed churches for what we were. And fundamentally, churches didn't depart from the gospel per se. They didn't love each other.
Lee Eclov:That was the problem. That was the number one command that we violated. And some did it great. Some were wonderful. And there were churches, you know, every church was kinda knocked off its feet.
Lee Eclov:You know, we were like staggering sailors, you know, and some got their footing right away, you know, in their prayers and just remember what was important, but others didn't. And, well, in a way, I mean, as sad as it is, now we know. Now we know what was in the heart because we were pretty complacent about how good we were and how nice we were and all that, and all of a sudden that was all thrown up in the air and we found out.
Jonathan Hoffman:I I wanna come to the the Australian context in a moment. But before I do, I think as someone who's been watching from afar, literally afar, the other wave I feel like that's hit the church is a wave of scandal, and a lot of Yes. You've seen a lot of public, leaders in ministry, who have falls, or been removed or been, you know, stepped down. I'm wondering, can you give us your perspective on that? I I would imagine you know, and I guess your perspective, what's your emotional reaction when you see these just as a pastor to pastor?
Jonathan Hoffman:And then what's your what's your reflection as someone who's who's been in vocational ministry for a long time? What's your reflection from a wisdom perspective?
Lee Eclov:Yeah. I just heard another one this week, and I was like, oh, just heartbreaking. When I was a young pastor, we had moved to the church in Pennsylvania, and I was in conversations with my best friend about co pastoring. And then it became known that he had failed in a miserable way in his ministry. And I was terrified, like, deeply frightened.
Lee Eclov:I became fatalistic. If it can happen to him, it can happen to me. And, I had in my mind a a mental picture. There's a famous, battle scene in America from the Battle of Gettysburg during the Civil War when the Confederate troops under Pickett, general Pickett, storm the union troops to try to take this hill, and they almost make it, but they just get mowed down, mowed down. And then I remember thinking that's what the ministry is like, you know, this guy might get this far, somebody else gets that far, but we're all this is just a a job where we our weaknesses are just too exposed.
Lee Eclov:And it it was really a bad time. I I was depressed and I was it was just, like I said, fatalistic and somehow in the mercies of God, I came on, Jude, now to him who's able to keep you from falling and present you before his presence without with great joy. And I started praying that way because I was exceedingly aware of my own weakness. And I think we have seen, in some cases, what we have seen in terms of these, very public failings were pastors who had never been accountable or were not introspective. Some were young when they kind of vaulted to leadership.
Lee Eclov:They were not ready. This is this is a role where every weakness you have is going to be known whether they know it specifically or they see the effects of it. They cannot they don't know every secret but, it's just such a vulnerable job and you have the enemy on your tail and you have, the these pressures. Our people have no idea how hard this job is emotionally and spiritually. It's not that the job on the surface is harder than me to get over the salesman or whatever, you know.
Lee Eclov:I'll tell you brothers, I lived in the shadow of Samson my whole life, my whole career. I always thought about Samson. I thought Lee, you've been given some real gifts, They're remarkable in certain ways. They're gifts from God. They're strengths.
Lee Eclov:It's they're not talents. These are things that are sort of they just happen when I do things, but make no mistake, you know, you can get your hair cut off before, you know, what hit you. And I I'm grateful so grateful to God. I mean, my last congregational meeting in the church in Lincolnshire, I told them about this. And I said, I know there's years ahead of me, but at least I've made it this far without being a disgrace to you and to the lord.
Lee Eclov:And I hope I can make it, but I suppose the number one thing is a sense of humility and vulnerability that puts us on our guard. But when you're when you're under enormous pressure, this is true for anybody, faster or not, pressure pushes us to find some relief, some relief belt and sin offers variety of relief belts.
Jonathan Hoffman:Mhmm.
Lee Eclov:You know, one of my good friends, it was gambling, Internet gambling. I never heard anybody doing that. You know, it can be I knew a guy hit his anger. It was just his anger. So it's not always, you know, sexual relationships.
Lee Eclov:It's just it's vulnerability. And, you know, if there's not somebody, this friend of ours that was involved in gambling, we were in a small group of pastors together. We met every other week. I remember one of the guys saying to me, you know, how do you think Bill is doing? Is he okay?
Lee Eclov:And I thought, yeah, I think he's okay. I don't know. He wouldn't tell us. Right? If you want to keep a secret, you can keep a secret.
Lee Eclov:It doesn't matter how good the friendships are, you can keep a secret if you want to and, I'm just grateful for where I am in light of who I am.
Ardin Beech:As a global church, what do we do with that sort of stuff from a purely pragmatic sense? You know, we're we're called to expel, you know, such a person, valid point, but we're also called to forgive, also a valid point.
Lee Eclov:Right.
Ardin Beech:What are we supposed to do with it after such an event? So, you know, certainly, some for some, a very public large scale event.
Lee Eclov:Well, you know, the the public of this, the the fact that we hear about somebody who lives in another city that we've never even met. I mean, there's nothing I can do about that except if it comes up in conversation to admit it and, you know, not to pretend that there's nothing wrong. I think the thing that's been the greatest scourge has been sexual abuse that seems to the world to be unaddressed, that people are, you know, ministers are protected, that this doesn't come out. That is worse than anything because it just shows suspicion and, you know, it used to be that a pastor was, you know, the most respected person in town. Mhmm.
Lee Eclov:Well, now it's not that way. And,
Jonathan Hoffman:I think we're near chiropractors, so I think is sort of where we're at. On the scale. I think that's just the
Ardin Beech:trust scale.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yeah. The trust scale. We're near chiropractors, But yeah.
Ardin Beech:Well, that was cool. A very different perspective on church, on preaching, on pastoring. Yeah. Nice chat.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yeah. It was really I was encouraged. You know, you can tell he's a very gentle man. He's a very, warm, encouraging man, and, I really appreciate the depth that he thinks about the ministry. And one of the things I really resonated with was the his point about, you know, this job exposes your weaknesses.
Jonathan Hoffman:And I I felt that personally. Like, this there's nothing to hide. It's just warts and all, and so, you know, it's gonna if you got cracks, if you got if you, you know, if you got things, flaws, it's gonna it's gonna get manifest in that. And then that not just manifest like, hey. Oh, this guy has flaws, but, like, they will actually get worked into the fabric of the community.
Jonathan Hoffman:And so it's just all the more encouragement, you know, for me to, you know, to do what the scripture says and watch your life and doctrine closely. It was
Ardin Beech:really I was really encouraged. And we will
Jonathan Hoffman:do it all again next week.