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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Long Game, a Heated Rivalry podcast. My name is Declan, this is Sylvan and we are moving on to part two of the Heated Rivalry book. So what we've been doing is comparing how the book is written compared to the show then. We had an interesting discussion last time about the first few chapters that are included in part one.
So this one is going to be a little shorter because part two is a shorter part of the book as well. So we're just going to get straight into it. Sylvan, what did you think of these few chapters?
Silvan (00:31)
You know what? I know we were critical of part one and we had a lot of discourse on our socials about some of the language that was used in part one and just the general development of these characters. And I so enjoyed reading all the comments. Part two is where I really get sucked into the story. I'm really enjoying this now. And I don't know whether it's again, again, I'm biased because we know the characters so well from the TV show, but.
I feel like it's found its rhythm for me in part two. What did you think?
Declan (01:05)
Yeah, this is definitely when the relationship starts to like emotionally develop properly. When you start to get a hint that things might not be quite as physical, like exclusively as ⁓ both characters have been trying to present up to this point. I think it's also when the angst really starts setting in for the fact that these two aren't really together properly. ⁓ Shane is really starting to question some of his
of attachment to Ilya about whether or not this is getting a bit too serious and he's getting all up in his feelings and that is where like all the drama in this book sits so that's always like the best stuff to read.
Silvan (01:49)
Absolutely, and we'll come to this a little bit later, but we get the infamous Vegas scene here in this part of the book. And I think that just builds so much, especially having watched the TV show. And we also get the bonus chapter that Rachel republished on her website that we'll also talk about from Ilya's point of view. that, ooh, I have notes on that, but we're getting ahead of ourselves.
Declan (02:08)
Yes.
Silvan (02:17)
So where we're at with part two is it starts at chapter nine. Now we get the introduction to Ryan Price here. Now I don't know whether Ryan is in any of the other books or he comes in a little bit later.
But the brief introduction we got to Ryan, I really like him.
Declan (02:40)
I'm glad you like him because he is the main character of the next book. So he is. So it's all the next book is all about Ryan and how he deals with his anxiety and how he deals with being like constantly traded, constantly moved about. He is a very complex character in terms of like his mental health and the experiences that he's had as a hockey player throughout his life. And
Yeah, you'll see a lot of them. I'm glad you liked them from your first view of him because he's one of my favourite characters in the series, so he is entirely. And I just think he is so interesting and there's a lot of really interesting themes that are set around his character and how he works. And he has a very interesting relationship with Ilya as well. Ilya very randomly collects some of these hockey players throughout the series.
as like these little, ⁓ and those little circus of monkeys that he will eventually, you know, bring together in some way that I'm not going to spoil for you. ⁓ but yeah, it's like just slowly introducing characters that we're going to see again and again. ⁓ there are other characters as well in this book that you're going to see that might end up getting possibly maybe a bit of extra, ⁓ know, showing in the other books, but
Yeah, Ryan has an interesting introduction here because he's obviously this huge big hockey player and his fear of heights or fear of flying is outrageous.
Silvan (04:17)
I like that you mentioned that in the next book that there's an introduction to his mental health difficulties because I Rachel Reed does a really good job at laying some of that down in this chapter here, albeit briefly. We see Ilya being very comforting towards Ryan and being very protective over Ryan, who has obviously got some anxiety over flying and we can see that very, very clearly.
You get this sort of protectiveness from Ilya that we don't see outside of his relationship with Shane really.
Declan (04:52)
Yeah, because it's a vulnerability within Ilya that he's afraid Shane might take advantage of because Ilya is so close physically with Shane and that as we can see from Rachel's sort of Ilya perspective chapter in Vegas, like he is really into Shane like scarily at this point where he is really, really vulnerable to
having his heart broken and to have this guy really take advantage of him. So obviously the shields are up for Shane, but it doesn't mean that Ilya can't show his softer side to other people or his kinder side. I don't know if I would necessarily call it his soft side because he's still quite abrupt and brutal about the way he does help people, but it does show that he has a kind heart and that kindness reappears throughout the books. And I like
that it's an element of his character that also grows over time. Elio likes to, you know, drop in every so often and do something very nice for somebody and then sort of draw himself out before everyone thinks, ⁓ my God, this guy is actually nice. So he's still pushing that bad boy persona, even to the people that he's helping. But underneath it all is just him sort of showing that he does have kindness and that he is a bit of a softie actually.
Silvan (06:16)
Yeah. And you get these moments where he sort of unveils that softer side of him or that protective side of him. And I was trying to think about, you know, from watching the TV show, we know that Ilya is very much a carer. He cares for other people. He cared for his father, you know, he cares for Shane and he definitely cared for his mother. And I'm wondering if there's certain people or certain...
qualities in people that elicit that from him, that very caring, nurturing, protective side, because we definitely see it here. And then a part of me is thinking, is Ilya a rescuer? Does he come in and try and rescue people? And I'm sort of in between those two.
Declan (06:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's an interesting point as well because is Ilya doing that? he basically trying to be a fixer? he, like you said, is he a rescuer? Is he someone that's trying to jump in and save people from things that nobody saved him from? Maybe. Because I do find that Ilya has an affinity for people that are going through two particular struggles. One is mental health and the other is in relation to sexuality and they're very much within his ballpark.
You'll notice that as the books go on that he does tend to gravitate towards these kinds of people and he's always there to offer the sort of kind and comforting word. Ilja is someone I think whose observational skills are underestimated. I think he sees things in other people that, you know, a lot of others don't. And so when he sees someone like Ryan who presents as this huge and massive guy, very intimidating, scary,
When his anxiety becomes clear to basically Ilya, he feels the need to step in and offer comfort in that situation. So I do think he finds an affinity with these kinds of people. And that is obviously something that relates back to how he has been going through his life, his struggles, even in relation to obviously we know from the show, the loss of his mother and his own struggles with sexuality and having to hide that about himself.
how society views out of him. So yeah, I do think that he empathizes with those people and he finds an affinity with them.
Silvan (08:37)
Completely and it just goes to show how they had no idea how big the TV show was going to be because had they known this in hindsight and they wouldn't have of course I Can see them having okay. You've got three series in the bag It's funded for get really creative because this is I would have loved to see something like this Even if it was like a brief one minute sort of scene, but had they had the budget and had they had the foresight
I have loved to see them have interwoven some of these sort of little Easter eggs for the next season, for example.
Declan (09:14)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it is a shame, but it's all I think it's ultimately placed in a more practical idea of how to run a show, which is if this is a success, I don't want to have to recast this character who will basically be taking on a main role from here on out. Just because I didn't have the foresight to, you know, wait and be patient. Obviously, it means that we miss out a little bit on that sweetness that Elliot does offer to people.
I mean, the only real time we really see it in the show is through his care for his father ⁓ and also through the sort of pull scene whenever he's playing with the kids and having fun with them. I feel like that's where they show strongest in the show. Whereas in the book you get more little moments of Ilya just doing a kindness for somebody just for the sake of it, even though he's still trying to maintain his bad boy image. But yeah, I do.
See that it would make sense for Jacob Tierney and the showrunners to make that decision to not include that scene with Ryan because they would have to call the actor back or recast the actor with somebody that is like strong enough to carry the entire segment of whatever season he's going to be involved in because Ryan's story is so interesting that there's absolutely no chance in hell that they're not going to do it. His mental health struggles the way that he, ⁓ you know,
who he meets and who his partner is as well. That is definitely a story that Jacob Tierney is going to want to look into because it is layered and answers some questions and criticisms of Shane and Ilya's story and Scott and Kip's story that ⁓ basically gets addressed through this book and through this character and through his relationship with this guy that we don't know about yet. So, yeah, just keep an eye out for that.
Silvan (11:11)
I feel like Declan's proclaimed his early predictions for season two.
Declan (11:17)
Yeah, yeah, I I genuinely think that. I don't know how they're actually going to do it now, because he would essentially need to squeeze four books into one season. I don't think he's going to do that. But it would mean that. Other story and also Williams are not going to be the main focus of the show. ⁓ It will be taken over by.
like a different lead cast and they would be like reoccurring characters. ⁓ Which considering how famous they're getting at the minute that might suit them to just be reoccurring. ⁓ Because committing to a full time show you you have people like Zendaya who like when Euphoria started for example she was a well known but ultimately not like A-list star but as soon as she took off like Euphoria fit their schedule around her schedule.
the entire show, just they include her in it and keep her in it because she was such a big part. I would imagine something similar is going to happen with Hudson and Connor as well. But that lends to the actual flow of the story. Like, it would be nice to have, ⁓ you know, maybe main characters for like half the season and then they switch to the other books main characters. And then you have Shane and Ilya coming in and doing little cameos within it. ⁓
Silvan (12:14)
Yeah.
Declan (12:42)
I would imagine that's one version that you could do that or she's going to work with Rachel Reed to write more content for Shane and Ilya that relates back to how they're loving their lives whenever all these stories are sort of happening in tandem with each other. So yeah, it's an interesting thought now that we're going through this book and I'm like, how are they gonna slot all this into like EBE version? That'll be interesting.
Silvan (13:10)
Yeah, I think we can have a whole episode on our predictions alone, because it sounds like there is just so much. And I know there was chat before about even having the long game, the book split into two. And so I don't think anyone really knows, at least from the fan side of it. We can speculate and that's part of the fun, but having to cram everything in, I'm not sure that I want them to. I don't know whether they'll pull a Scott and Kip and just do a standalone episode.
their whole book for example. that would be having not read it, I don't know if that would do their story justice and knowing that it's your favorite character, I almost feel like you want an entire season of them.
Declan (13:54)
So I could easily have like maybe not a full season, but like half a season dedicated to Ryan and his soon to be partner Fabian. ⁓ And also to Eric and Kyle, are the couple that follow in the book after that. But my favorite character is actually from the fifth book, it's Troy. He is my heart, my heart breaks for Troy. It's made for Troy.
per troi. ⁓
Silvan (14:24)
Okay, I will be kind to Troy. I've already been
accused of being very harsh with Shane, so I will be kind to Troy.
Declan (14:35)
To be fair, Shane brings criticism on himself a lot of times, so, know, it ends whatever. But yeah, there are really lots of great characters to come up. So I'm really looking forward to finishing them all. And then we can have like discussions about the wider verse. So, yeah.
Silvan (14:42)
And yeah.
And
if anyone is listening, this is my responsibility. I am being very slow with this. Declan has read it multiple times and even the book club has surpassed me now. So it's I'm the one who's going at a snail's pace, but it's for good reason, I promise. And you also talked about sort of how big some of the actors have gotten and everything. And we just saw over the past weekend, the Met Gala, and we saw how much fanfare there was for
for Hudson and Connor and how much attention they got and not just media attention, but other celebrities talking about them in terms of attention. And I can see them pulling almost as in day or where their schedules just get very complicated because they both got like half a dozen sort of titles coming out in the next few years. And that's gonna be interesting to be scheduling for their agents at least.
Declan (15:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like it will be a case of like trying to work around them at this point because they will be getting the big offers now. They'll be getting Disney offers. They'll be getting Universal Paramount. Like they will be getting everything thrown at them and they're basically going to the pick of the crop, whatever they want to do and whatever projects they want to work with. They'll be getting attention from the big actors, the big directors, big producers, because everyone can see how immensely popular and liked they are.
even within the Hollywood sort of sphere, they seem to have like, they had an unusual following from like, so many different important figures within the industry. So these guys, like they are going to be as NDA. So they are, they're not going to, this, this little show might've started them off, but they're going to shit into the stratosphere and they already have. So it'll be interesting to see how their projects turn out after this.
and how it's going to sort of affect the scheduling of the show because ⁓ I can't imagine the show is going to be much longer, maybe in our, maybe two seasons more. You could probably squeeze out of it. Yeah, I hope they do actually just commit to, ⁓ you know, finishing the show in a proper way, not just sort of disappearing whenever it's like, cause this is the one that got them the
Silvan (16:59)
Yeah, I think that's what they have scheduled.
Yeah.
Declan (17:18)
start. It's a high quality show as well. I do hope that they do stick with it and that they do sort of honor the vision that was originally started and that they wrap it up in a way that's satisfactory for everybody.
Silvan (17:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, don't pull a euphoria where you have like four years between seasons or something like that. I don't watch euphoria, but I just know from TikTok how much drama there is with euphoria. But can we take a moment of appreciation? I don't know if you saw the photos from the Met Gala, but the shoulders on Connor's story in that little halter top, like good Lord, both these guys looked so, so good.
Declan (17:39)
my god.
Yeah, yeah, honestly, if acting doesn't work out then modeling is 100 % up to their alley for both of them. I think they're also not afraid to go for like a unique look and that seems to get everyone excited as well. Like all these different designers that were like, how would I style them? How would I do this? How would I do that? There's just such a buzz about them and I'm actually really happy for them that both of these guys, you know, came from not a lot.
and had been working as waiters before the show took off so you know their success story is actually you know a real positive and some fresh blood it's not the sort of usual inherited sort of roles and yeah Neppo babies. I think that's also why they're so popular as well as they're just sort of homegrown, felt with the earth, authentic yeah and that seems to really
Silvan (18:47)
Napple Baby.
authentic?
Declan (19:02)
know, jail with people.
Silvan (19:04)
Yeah. Speaking of new characters, there was something that Ryan does in chapter nine. And this is probably why I resonate and I'm really starting to like the character of Ryan. But Rachel Reads talks about Ryan sort of shaking his leg. I don't know what the name of that is, it's something that I do. Yeah, but I do that like all the time, not when I'm anxious or anything. I just do it.
Declan (19:25)
self-saving.
Silvan (19:33)
And don't even realize I'm doing it until somebody tells me to like stop. And I'm like, I'm not anxious. I'm not self-soothing. It's just like a leg thing that I do. And I wonder if anyone else, if anyone is listening, who else does this, but isn't necessarily related to their anxiety or anything, because it's become such a habit for me that I literally will not realize I'm doing it.
Declan (19:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like a little fidget, so it is.
Silvan (19:59)
Yeah, and the only time I'm very conscious of not doing it is when we're recording because I don't want the screen to flutter. So I have to really check in when we're recording to make sure like I'm not bouncing my table up and down.
Declan (20:14)
Yeah, the whole place doesn't look like an earthquake's happening on the other end of the camera.
Silvan (20:18)
Literally, so if you're not watching, I literally have a hand on my leg pressing down to stop me from doing it.
So I wanted to get your thoughts on how likely it is for Ilya in this stage of his career to be an assistant captain.
Declan (20:35)
Not likely. it's... I suppose whenever you have an extremely talented player, you might want to groom them for that role. But at this point, what age is Belia supposed to be? Like 20, 21 or something?
Silvan (20:36)
Mmm.
Yeah, I don't even know at this point, but they're still very young.
Declan (20:57)
Yeah, like obviously very early 20s. Most captains, you know, you're sort of your 30s like you're an experienced player. I don't know how realistic that was, but Shane's no different as well. I mean, I think by the end of this book, like Shane and Ilya are both captains of their team. I know for a matter of fact that when Ilya, after this book, know, Ilya is definitely captain.
I remember that now from rereading them. yeah, seems that it's Rachel trying to push this idea that these are prodigies and that they're both on equal standing with each other and that they're not your standard go-to players. And that feeds into this idea of the rivalry is that you have two essential geniuses of the sport being able to compete with one another. So you don't just have one, you have two.
And that sort of feeds into that idea that, my God, who's better? They must hate HR. They must be so competitive. Like what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object sort of thing. So yeah, I think it's just a big up the idea of their skills and stuff, but I don't think it's actually realistic to have someone that young be captain of the team. I think it usually requires a more experienced player.
Silvan (22:19)
I agree. And I was wondering about how that plays into the power dynamics. You can't have one be a captain and not the other, because they're essentially very equal throughout the whole series. So you're right. think making them, or at least for Ilya, making him an assistant captain, a bit far-fetched from Reddit.
Declan (22:29)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (22:39)
And one thing that stood out for me in this chapter is, right, Shane buys an entire building just in order to have sex with Ilya. Like, I know these boys are raking it in, but wow, that's a lot.
Declan (22:40)
Yeah.
So I told you this last time that the difference between Shane's commitment to making a space for them to be together in the book is insane. That's an insane thing to do. Go out and buy an entire apartment block just to have sex with your sort of casual fling that's been going on behind the scenes. That's a crazy people thing. That's a crazy people thought.
no, he tries to paint it as like this is an investment and this is a blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, an investment in your future relationship. No, not in your finances. ⁓ yeah, it's. I think it's like an early sign of how ridiculous Shane is. I think it's a, that might be an early sign of his neurodivergence as well, that he just sort of sees a perfect answer to an obstacle, despite the fact that it's a bit. A bit out there and he just sort of runs with it. Not really questioning the idea. ⁓
So I would sort of chop it up to that. yeah, compared to the show where it's sort of made clear that Shane, you know, has bought this out of practicality because this is what Shane does. He is smart about his investments. He's very put together. He's very adult. Where as Ilya is running around in fancy cars and he's just enjoying his money and obviously spending quite a lot of it to
home as well to help his father and his brother. But yeah, I think that's such a funny detail and it's only become so ridiculous to me now since the show we sort of made it look more sensible. But also it just goes to show that Shane is head over heels, whether or not he knows it. Imagine buying an entire apartment block just to have a grinder hook up. That's essentially what he's done. He's trying to say, no, I don't really have feelings for this guy.
Yeah, okay buddy, whatever you say.
Silvan (25:03)
right? And I know Yuna doesn't really play a manager-type role in the book, but I can't imagine what Yuna must have thought with Shane being like, I think I'm just going to buy the whole building. I mean, you know, for shits and giggles.
Declan (25:19)
Why not? Yeah, have you noticed that Yuna isn't in the burger march at all?
Silvan (25:24)
Not at all. And in fact, think up until what I've read in part one and part two, David has more lines than Yuna does.
Declan (25:33)
Yeah, exactly. Like she, I think the decision to make her more involved to give greater context to the sort of family that Shane's coming from was really smart. And they ended up creating a much different character that just works, like works really well, adds a bit more emotional weight to Shane's coming out. But yeah, it is kind of missed in the book now that whenever I was rereading it, I was like, Oh, you know, it's not really like you know, it's like an iconic character now from the show.
But in the book she's just like a nobody character.
Silvan (26:07)
She's barely in the periphery. mean, you're right. She doesn't really hold much of a role in Shane's life from the book, whereas the adaptation was just so good in developing you into such a complex character and a character that also aids and resolves Shane's guilt and shame that we see in episode six. Like that is such a pivotal scene.
for the whole series that if you didn't have that in there, I don't know how Shane gets that resolution.
Declan (26:43)
Yeah, exactly. it's lens more into the idea as well that Shane is in withholding himself because of the external pressures being put on him by his family, which there is sort of an idea of context to you in the book, but it's definitely it's subcontext. It's not as obvious as in the show where you literally see momager at her at her strongest. Like she is.
setting all these expectations for how she thinks her son should be living his life. And she isn't doing it in a malicious way, but she's still doing it. Whereas in the show or in the book, rather, it's more Shane's own internal dilemma. Like you get the idea that his father and mother don't really care whether or not he'd be gay or not. It just seems to be like an extra element to add more sort of
stakes to Shane's coming out in the show, it makes a bit more sense. I think it also helps cover up for the lack of an inner monologue that we get from the book compared to the show. ⁓ It's enough in the book because we understand how agonized Shane is over all of this. We understand his anxieties about coming out and what it will do to his career and all these other things which are harder to communicate on screen because it's all happening in his head and that's the only reason we know it is because he's thinking it.
⁓ so I think it makes up for that loss as well by having like an external visible thing that shows a reason why Shane might not want to come out because, you know, his parents are like, they have an idea for how his life is supposed to go. And he is contradicting that and Shane likes to be perfect. He likes to be the perfect son. And so it creates a very complicated, you know, like emotional storm inside him.
that doesn't get resolved until that final episode so yeah it is I suppose in hindsight you know it's one of those things hindsight it would have been nice to have Yuna's role expanded more in the book and I do think it does happen but in the long game just not in this one
Silvan (28:55)
Yeah, I agree. I know I was a little critical of the spiciness of the sex scenes in part one, but does Rachel Reed make up for it in this part? yes. This, was, so I went to a wedding ⁓ over the weekend and I was in an Uber reading the book and I was getting a little hot and flustered reading the book in the Uber.
Declan (29:25)
Yeah, it became a this is for the home kind of book. This is not for reading on the train anymore. ⁓
Silvan (29:35)
No, no, I will
not be taking this on public transport.
Declan (29:40)
Yeah, no, definitely not. Wouldn't advise that one. ⁓ But no, there is definitely like an increase in the quality of the writing of more of them it seems. She just gets better at it, which thankfully dolls carry free to the other books as well. ⁓ And yeah, it's just, it's just got better.
Silvan (30:02)
mean, when she writes about Shane coming hands free, was like, ⁓ I felt that. Like, I imagined it, I felt it. I was like, that's realistic, actually.
Declan (30:18)
Depending on what Ilya is doing. Yeah, she's just, I think she took on maybe a bit of criticism from the first book and she seems to have just gone, well, I'm going to try and do this right then. Yeah, it's just a massive improvement in her writing. And it means that you actually look forward to those scenes more.
Yeah, I think that the criticism from Game Changer has definitely like changed her style, you could say. So that she's more aware of how dragged out those scenes were and she's tightened these ones up now. So you're actually looking forward to them instead of like dreading them and skipping over them and whatever.
And because they're also tied into the emotional development between the two, it makes them that much more satisfying as well. yeah, massive improvement. Thank God.
Silvan (31:14)
Yeah. And speaking of satisfaction, there's a different level of satisfaction I get from the TV show, not because Connor and Hudson are just beautiful, but even in the way they have the kiss on the stairwell when Ilya's leaving, there's a softness and an intimacy when they did that on the TV show that I didn't quite get the read of when I was reading the book. And I understand like completely different mediums and everything.
Declan (31:29)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (31:42)
But
there was just something a little bit extra that I got from watching these two actors do it on TV that I didn't get from these two characters in the book.
Declan (31:54)
Yes, and this was a criticism that I brought up in the last episode in part one, which was there is not enough small moments of sort of emotional intimacy between these two for the first half of this book. I think it's lacking. think it doesn't help with the build up. You know, you're supposed to be really rooting for these characters to want to be together. So you need little instances, even if you're not going to go fully all the way.
of just showing that these two actually like each other more than this and that they might make a nice cute couple. And I think that's what you get from TV show. You get the idea that there's like an emotional intimacy between these two that's quite possible and something quite sweet beyond the sort of spice of the whole thing. So yeah, I do feel like in the book, Rachel Reed probably just from a lack of writing experience at this point in her career. ⁓
doesn't include these really important little moments of emotional catharsis. And that's a shame because you can see how effective and meaningful they can be when looked through the lens of TV show. I don't think it's just that. Hudson Williams and Connor's story are gorgeous, but I don't think it's just that. I think it's just the fact as well that those emotional and the same moments are just sort of lost in the book. They're just not as frequent and they're sort of needed.
to make this relationship a bit more believable.
Silvan (33:25)
Yeah, exactly. And I know a lot of people have made comments about how on the TV show that kiss is actually quite improvised in the way it's been done, not the kiss itself, but the style of the way they've kissed is as that was improvised and that was kept in. So it just goes to show how you can write a script, but unless you've got good actors to play it through, it's not going to come across.
Declan (33:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, they have good instincts. they do. what it's just two actors that really understand their characters and understand the dynamics starting between them and who, you know, they've lived lives as well. They've had intimate and emotional relationships like they understand wherever you're trying to convey a certain emotion, what happened in their life that helped convey that in a meaningful and direct way. And the choice to do that kiss like that.
could have been anything. Literally it could have been a peck in the lips and you're gone. ⁓ But they decided to show it as a moment of something is connecting these two now. This is changing the dynamics. Not the same. It's not just this physical thing. It's becoming something different.
Silvan (34:35)
And I like that you talk about the kiss and because there are so many different types of kissing and, and in a way I'm glad that they really tap into that because no one kisses even if it's the same partner the same way all the time. You know, you've got the quick peck, you've got the long romantic one, you've got the softer one, the more aggressive one, the sexual one. There was so many different types of kisses that that's not explained in the writing, but that's definitely conveyed through the acting.
Declan (35:06)
Yeah, yeah, 100%. ⁓ It leaves a little bit of freedom for them as well to express what their characters might be feeling in a way that they feel works because obviously they're playing them, they're living in their skin for however many months. So yeah, I think it was a right decision to allow them to improvise in that scene. ⁓ I get the idea as well that Kick Up Touring actually allows quite a lot of improvisation, whatever he's doing in shows.
Um, like a lot of heated rivalry, um, free out the show. There are scenes which the cast and the crew will say a lot of this was improvised and we just sort of ran with it. We had an idea of what we wanted. We wrote a little bit and then we just sort of let the guys do what they felt was best. Um, so almost allowing a little bit of self direction, but stepping in just to sort of tweak and improve and change things about like a lot of that credit goes to the entusiai coordinator as well.
who apparently had quite a bit of freedom to do what she felt was appropriate and what looked good and sure the scenes are incredible throughout the show. you know, it's...
Allowing talented, creative people to be talented and creative turns out that it's actually a really good idea instead of strangleholding them with an idea of what you think they should be doing. So...
Silvan (36:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that intimacy director or coordinator rather is Charla Hunter, who if you don't follow on Instagram is really prolific on Instagram. So go check out her page and somebody who I've managed to have conversations with. I know she did an interview with the Looncall podcast, which was such a treat to listen to actually. ⁓ And you're right, there is a flexibility in Jacob's style of
of directing and writing that allows actors to make some decisions about how they're going to portray this. Because when you get other TV shows like Gilmore Girls, I'm a huge Gilmore Girls fan, but the way that it's written and the cadence of the writing is how Amy Sherman-Paladino wants it. There is no improvising on that show. You say the lines as they're written.
I understand why that might be the case. Like she writes in a very specific style and she writes a lot. She writes, think it's like double the amount of pages per episode. So the actors are constantly going through them. Like I think it's like 80 pages or something. It's a lot. And so with a show like that, there is no improvisation. Whereas with this, you can see glimpses of it and we hear about it afterwards. So it's such a nice treat to.
to get that inside when you have these sort of interviews with Jacob or with Charlotte, for example. Now, one thing I think they did really well, so we're coming on to chapter 10, and this is, you know, the Sochi Olympics. I hope I said that right. I don't know. I can't remember anyone saying it, so I hope I pronounced it right, but the Olympics. Now, one thing I felt that they got really well is in the book is the amount of pressure that Ilya is facing.
not just because it's one, it's his home country, there's pressure. They talk about sort of amalgamating this team from different sort of teams and them not necessarily gelling because they don't really play together. And that that pressure is on him to be able to perform and win and they don't. And from a non-professional side, having the pressure from Ilya's father.
I thought they did that really well in this chapter and I could, I really felt for Ilya, I felt the pressure, I felt just the weight of it on him and I really, really empathized with him in this chapter.
Declan (38:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a hard one for him. He's having to deal with quite a bit at this moment in time. I think in this chapter as well, you sort of get the idea that his father isn't like completely well. So it's tough for him. And what's funny is this idea of bringing together this sort of talented group of individuals, but they can't play it well. It's bad team dynamics.
⁓ That idea returns in later books for Ilya and he has a chance at redeeming himself from this catastrophe that is this team, which I think is a really nice nod to this moment that he's having and his early career. But yeah, it's a lot of pressure and Ilya's, like we said, he's young. He's very young to be the captain of this team. ⁓
I think it's also the idea of having experience and having a sense of maturity and able to lead people in a sense. Like he not only has this pressure of performing as one of the top athletes in the sport, but also the pressure of the leadership of presenting his national team. All whilst this team is also, you know,
from a country that is deeply homophobic. While Ilya is also trying to maintain this secret relationship that he has with this other guy. Like, Jesus. If you come into my therapy office and tell me about all that going on, I'll be like, well, where do you want to start? Because you can't be doing all that. So yeah, it's a lot for him to be dealing with at this moment in time as well. And there's a lot of deeper layers to what's going on within Ilya too.
that's sort of brought more to the forefront in the long game. That is also a play during this moment in his life as well. yeah, really, really tough for him. And unfortunately, ⁓ Shane receives the wrong end of the stick. He just sort of becomes a little bit of a target for Ilya at one point. And I don't know if that's out of like a moment of panic because he doesn't want to be seen with Shane or if that's like a moment of
venting his frustrations at the wrong person who just happened to be there, but either way it has a real detrimental effect on their relationship at that moment in time too.
Silvan (41:45)
Absolutely, and you can see it. I'm so interested in this relationship that he has with his father. Like I have been from the TV show, but I think it's done so, so well in the book. You know, the way, you know, Rachel writes about Ilya's father inspecting him and Ilya thinking, I've got the right tux on, everything's perfect. And yet the what it's, he knows there's something coming.
Declan (42:12)
you will find something.
Silvan (42:13)
And he does, he's like, your hair is too long. And it's like, God damn it. really? You couldn't let one thing slide, but it's, goes to really demonstrate the type of relationship they have and the type of person that Ilya's father is. And there's this almost, yeah. And I know his background is in the police or something like that, but it almost feels very army-like when you're standing to attention and you're being inspected head to toe. and I imagine.
But I can't even imagine what that must have been like for Ilya to grow up like that, to be so accustomed to being inspected that you sort of expect that and you have to almost do a double take just to make sure nothing is wrong with what you've done. And, you know, we do, like you said, we do get that sort of inkling that his father has dementia here when he talks about his mother or something. And Ilya has to remind him that, you know, mum's dead kind of thing.
Declan (43:12)
Yeah, just
keep going, yeah.
Silvan (43:14)
and he brushes it off and that's very similar to the TV show, but gosh, you really get this here with them. And that to me is, that's the relationship I'm really interested in.
Declan (43:28)
Yeah, because what sort of dynamic does that create between a parent and child whenever a parent is hyper critical of the child, regardless of what they do. And I think this plays into a lot of the idea that Ilya likes to win. Ilya doesn't particularly care what he's winning at, but he likes to win. And I think a lot of that does come from his father. It comes from that push, constant push that hyper, you know,
critical voice that's constantly in his head. He has to be hearing his father whenever he's talking himself down. It has to be that voice because who else could it be? The way in which a child's development is strangled by a parent like this, it really can't be underestimated. It's so bad for their development to constantly talk down a child's accomplishments and to make them feel smaller than they are.
Obviously it's important that children know that when you fail you have to pick yourself back up again, but this is taking that to an extreme version where nothing is ever good enough and you're never succeeding. For him to come out as this confident person who is big talk and actually very high performing is a testament to him as an individual that despite having a father like this, despite this being his primary
caregiver by the way. He isn't as cold as he is made out to be as he presents himself. He's actually warm and he's kind and he's affectionate. But he does have hangups as a result of this and he is still trying to please his father despite the fact that he's an agro man. So that trauma is obviously deeply ingrained in him and I can't imagine how complex that trauma becomes.
whenever we know his father passes.
Silvan (45:29)
completely and how many children can really identify with that because on some level we all want to, at least for some of us, not all sorry, we want to make our parents proud or please our parents. And you will adjust your beliefs and your attitudes sometimes in order to achieve that. I'm even thinking about Ilya's mum, know, even when a parent is dead, you still want to make them.
Declan (45:45)
Yeah.
Silvan (45:59)
You still want to act in a way that, know, for Shane, in Shane's case, wouldn't bring Shane to their family. But for Ilya's case, you know, you want to act in a way that honors his mom, that emulates his mom. And that's where this protective, this caring, this warmth comes from for me. Whereas with his father, it's like, I'm getting the, this is where his diligence, his discipline.
Declan (46:07)
Mm.
Silvan (46:28)
comes from in order to be good at a sport like this.
Declan (46:33)
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely an interesting sort of contrast between the mother and the father as well. One is centered around kindness and respect and the other is centered around competition and winning and hyper, you know, that sense of like hyper criticalness. Yeah, not great parenting role models to have, very complicated for him. ⁓
And this has delved in deeper in the long game as well, by the way. Ilya's dynamic with his parents is something that's looked into in a lot more detail. And I'm glad that Rachel Reed is sowing the seeds here. Like there's no doubt whatsoever that this is going to be a really interesting element of Ilya's character and that it does present in his behavior as well. But then getting the extra details, getting...
Getting the secret sauce in the second book is really rewarding as a result of that. yeah, she does lay a lot of seeds ⁓ in this book and I'm glad that she does return to them then. ⁓ So while you might encounter stuff in this book as well that don't get fully resolved, it's because the story isn't done yet. ⁓ So yeah, just keep an eye out.
Silvan (47:55)
that makes sense because there have been a lot of comments from the listeners about having Eliza, who's the trauma therapist we had on for a few episodes, come back for the long game specifically. And they're like, I don't want to give you any spoilers because you haven't read the book. And I'm like, I got it. Thank you. And like, thank you for not spoiling it. But and from what you're saying, I'm like, this is probably why they want Eliza back. So I'm hoping she'll come back. She's so lovely. And we had such a good time recording with her.
Declan (48:04)
Mm-hmm.
We're
Silvan (48:25)
So yeah, we'll definitely keep that in mind for those of you who have requested it. And this sort of marries up, you know, there's, feel like there's something, there's something coming and I'm, I was going to say I'm looking forward to it, but I know it's going to be a tear fest. So I'm not sure if I was looking forward to it as the right word.
Declan (48:44)
Yeah, there are a couple of moments in these books that make you want to cry and a lot of them are in long games. So yeah, be ready for that book because you're invested in these characters. I can already tell. So you're about to get slapped off the base.
Silvan (48:59)
And this part has really ramped up this investment. Obviously you see more of the emotional investment from both these characters in part two of the book. But when we even come to chapter 11, this is, you know, the, and they say it's the NHL awards. That's what I'm going to go with, but I know it's different than the TV show. and you know, at this point, you know, they haven't spoken and Shane and Ilya haven't spoken to each other for like four or five months. So I can't even imagine what that must've been like to have.
You know, this, I'm going to call it an argument. might not have been an argument at the rooftop, but then to go four or five months, no contact completely. And then to literally meet again on a public stage, quite literally when you're presenting an award, like that would wreck my head. And we can see that for Shane. can see that in this chapter, how he's like, what the fuck?
Declan (49:47)
Yeah.
And it's, this is like the crux of this whole thing is that they don't realize that both of them like each other just as much as the other one. And I think the way in which Shane is reacting now to Ilya and like, he's obviously been like torn up about this. He's thought about it like four or five months on, like, are you serious?
At that point you're in love with that person. You don't feel a grief and a pain like that unless you have something that's been lost. What I find interesting is because of this additional chapter that Rachel Rea brought out from Ilya's perspective, we know Ilya is feeling the exact same way. He literally says in that ⁓ extra chapter that I have thought about him every single day since we last met.
My brother in Christ, you are in love with that man, and you're gonna need to do something about it. And thankfully, you did.
Silvan (51:01)
So damn bad, so damn bad.
And I know we've talked about that communication not being very well. And I almost feel like five year olds could communicate much better than these two men can at this point or boys because they're acting like boys, you know, in that, don't know if you ever did this when you were in school or maybe it's just a movie thing where you say like, do you like me? Yes, no, maybe kind of thing. I feel like that kind of communication is probably what they needed to do. Like check a box ⁓ because these five year olds have that communication down.
Declan (51:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like they're afraid that the other person will get one up on them if they met or give like an inch of what they're thinking or feeling. And that's a really common trope whenever you're dealing with like rivals to lovers and all sort of romance books. That's always a big sticking point is like you cannot concede to this person because if you concede, it means that they're winning and you're losing. And how many relationships have fallen apart because one person
Like both people within the relationship just don't want to lose, even though in the end they both lose anyway, because nobody is winning in a situation where you can't come to a consensus. So yeah, it's definitely that. It's, their lack of experience. It's their inability to navigate through this emotional maelstrom that they've started. ⁓ and because their feelings are so intense for each other and they're not fully cognizant of the fact that they are so strong.
⁓ they just don't know how to deal with it in a way that is mature because they have no experience of it.
Silvan (52:48)
Yeah. And you talked about the Vegas chapter and we will get into it, I promise. But before we do that, what I found really interesting in this chapter was that Rachel tells us that Ilya's team, I think they call the Boston Bears in the book, wins the Stanley Cup. So whilst we get a chapter from Ilya's point of view as well as a supplementary thing, this story of him winning the cup
isn't told from Ilya's point of view. And I thought that was really interesting because Shane talks about sort of like shedding a bit of a tear, getting teary when he saw Ilya win the cup and how proud of him he was and everything. But I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in what was going on for Ilya to be able to win that league, to be able to, let's be honest, win the competition, prove that he's the best. He's the best on the best team in the league.
Declan (53:39)
Yeah.
Silvan (53:46)
That's what I'm interested in. I'm interested in why in the book when he wins, he says like, fuck you, fuck you all or something like that. Whereas in the TV show, it's like, I did it for you, mom, or this is for you or something like that. I want to know about that. I don't want to see it from another point of, from another character's point of view. I want to get inside Ilya's head because I think
Declan (54:04)
Yeah.
Silvan (54:15)
For me, Ilya is the more complex character for me right now and is the character that I'm more interested in. Yes, the story is driven by Shane's arc, like we said in the last episode, but Ilya's layers to me are what I'm interested in.
Declan (54:32)
and you will get them, you just won't get them in this book. And that's the thing. It's also important to remember that this is a romance. So the main focus is on how these characters do one another and how they're developing ⁓ and emoting in a way that suggests that they're getting close. So having a focus on Shane and Shane's reaction to see Ilya winning tells you more about the relationship than perhaps it does about Ilya and his past and how he's feeling.
which I would be interested in hearing and seeing as well and how he was experiencing that because he has such an interesting psychology, but ultimately it's about this relationship blossoming between the two and Shane's reaction to Ilya winning the cup isn't filled with animosity and jealousy and anger. It's filled with pride and love and a joy on behalf of Ilya.
And that goes to show you just where we are with these two at this point in time. Like Shane is in deep. He cares deeply for Ilya, cares for his achievements. He wants him to be happy. He wants him to succeed in life. And yeah, that's important for the romance.
Silvan (55:51)
I know, and I know this is a romance driven book and I get that. But you know how when Twilight came out, after Twilight came out, Stephanie Meyer wrote a whole, she wrote the whole book, I think, from Edward's point of view. I almost want that for Ilya. I want to see more of Ilya. I want to see more of Ilya's inner thoughts, the complexities.
Declan (56:07)
Yeah.
Silvan (56:16)
what's going through his head, why he's doing the things that he's done. I almost want the whole backstory for Ilya right up until before his mum even got sick or died. I don't know if she was sick, I'm sorry. You know, that's what I meant. Rachel Reed needs to pull a Stephanie Meyer and write the whole book again.
Declan (56:36)
You could do, yeah. And to be honest, I think she would enjoy writing it because there is a bit of a bias, I'm going to say. And some people might disagree with me, but I do think that Rachel Reed just really loves writing Ilya. And there is a tendency to make him very, very interesting while other characters sort of end up a little lackluster, you could say. ⁓ But I think in terms of
this book. We kind of need to focus on Shane a bit because if we don't, it's all going to be the Ilya show and it's going to be really unbalanced, even though he might make for the more interesting character. And I think that's kind of the issue here. And this happens a lot in M.M. Romances where an author will be writing with two main characters, two point of views, and one of them will be way more interesting than the other. And that is always
complex thing to have to deal with. when you've struck gold with one character and you're like, oh my God, this guy is so interesting. I've written such an interesting backstory. He's fascinating. He's entertaining and engaging. And I love writing the dialogue for him. He's so witty. He's this and that. And then you get to their other partner who is sort of like a blank slate and doesn't hold up to the shine of that other more interesting one. And there is a little bit of
that in this. ⁓ Ilya is just sort of iconic in this series of books and so you just can't help but want more of him over the other characters and even though Shane I still do quite like and I do like his journey, Ilya is just the brighter shining star in this and I'm sorry for all you Shane lovers but he really is like the best part of this book.
Silvan (58:32)
Yeah, yeah, I can totally see that. And I'm even trying to think of other M.M. romance books that I've read where that kind of happens again, but I'm going to hold my thoughts before I butcher some of their names. But I want to talk about the sex scene, the Vegas sex scene, the infamous Vegas sex scene. Now, from the book perspective, it very much marries up with how it was portrayed in the TV show. It's very
There's a very dumb sub dynamic here and we can see that. You you can, you can feel the coldness or the detachment from Ilya in the book chapter. And I preface that by saying book chapter.
One thing that I didn't realize how important it was coming from the TV show was the chair drag from Ilya from the living room to the bedroom. Like, I did not realize how hot that was until it wasn't in the book.
Declan (59:32)
What a missed opportunity I know. Terrible, it?
Silvan (59:37)
And
the no sniffing of the underwear. I'm sorry, but how does Illia not sniff Shane's underwear? Like, good lord, like give us something.
Declan (59:49)
See, now we're getting into the real meat of the story at this point. These are the important details that we need to discuss. Honestly, a disgrace. ⁓ Travis did. Rachel Reed really needs to check herself and her lack of underwear, something in her books. But I think, again, just the improvement from book to TV show in terms of writing and stuff and just the little decisions being made is so clever. That chair drag.
Silvan (59:54)
Literally.
You
Declan (1:00:19)
I feel like that had to be improvised, that had to be like a Connor story thought. It just feels like it would be, because it just works. It's just a little element of reality that just sort of makes it feel more realized. So yeah, I get what you mean. I get where you're coming from. But it's interesting as well that generally speaking, most of this is the exact same in the TV show, which just goes to show how well the scene was written originally in the book.
Silvan (1:00:25)
Hmm.
Declan (1:00:47)
It just works. It works for what's happening in this scene, which is Ilya is trying to create distance. So he is trying to separate himself from Shane in some sort of way to show that he is the one with the power in the situation. What he ends up getting instead is confirmation that he has lost control of the relationship and that no amount of subdomed sex is going to change that at all.
Yeah, from this point on there's something sort of inevitable about these two.
Silvan (1:01:22)
I am so excited that you talked about the control because you see this sort of battle for control in a way in the scene in a way that we don't necessarily see in the TV show for me. In one of the notes that I annotated the margins on page 135, I wrote, who has the power? Because you automatically assume that the dom in this dynamic is the one
with the power because they're telling the other person what to do, where to go, how to do it and so forth. But I actually think it's the sub. So it's Shane in this chapter who holds the power, at least for me. Yes, he's asking Ilya and he's begging for very dirty things to happen to him. But there's a performance aspect to what Shane does.
Declan (1:02:07)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:02:20)
And there's a little bit of a battle of a power when Shane's like passing me the lube. Like he, there's a testing, I think that's what I'm getting at. And there's a testing from both these characters. And I don't think the sub Dom is as straightforward as it might seem otherwise. I think there's more layers in this and there's more complexities and this battle for the power because I don't think it's obvious who holds the power.
Declan (1:02:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think you could argue that Shane is sort of manipulating Ilya in a sense. He's giving Ilya the illusion of control, but really Shane is driving it forward. He's driving what he wants. He knows the right things to say. He is deliberately performing in a certain way that he knows Ilya is going to like and that prompts Ilya then to take action. yeah, there is definitely something here where Shane is definitely manipulating things a little bit and he is
getting his way. Like he gets what he wants in the end, so he does. So whatever he does, works.
Silvan (1:03:23)
As he should. Is it
in this scene in the TV show where we get, and I'm going to say the actor's name, we get Hudson Williams' famous back arch, or is it a different sex scene?
Declan (1:03:38)
I don't know. I'm not sure. ⁓ my god, it's been months.
Silvan (1:03:42)
We'll have to,
I know I haven't rewatched it in a while. I'm sure if you're listening, please let us know, is this the infamous back arch scene? Because I can picture in my head, but there is one specific scene that almost broke the internet when that episode was released. And that's all my friends are talking about.
Declan (1:03:51)
Yes.
Silvan (1:04:04)
I really do. And the one thing we talked about a couple of things that were missing from this chapter that were in the TV show. Now, you talked about this way back when we don't get the we didn't even kiss text here in the book. We have it as a narrative, we didn't kiss or something to that effect, but we don't get as a text. And I think it's so much more powerful in the TV show that it's a text.
Declan (1:04:20)
No.
Silvan (1:04:31)
That's deleted because it's almost like he's taking it back for Shane.
Declan (1:04:36)
It's really clever storytelling, so it is. It's working well within your visual medium. What a perfect representation to show that Shane is feeling this way, but he's withholding it from Ilya. He's taking it back. He can't let them know how hurt he is because they can't fucking communicate. They are really bad at it. They will not allow either of themselves to be fully vulnerable with the other.
Silvan (1:04:57)
Nope.
Declan (1:05:06)
And that's what causing all this angst and all this shit because they are just not at level of trust and maturity yet to open up like that. it's to their own detriment. Like it makes them both miserable, but they just can't seem to stop it. The only thing keeping them together is the fact that they're already in love. And that's the only reason why they're still going on with this really hurtful situation is because they can't let go. And if not for that, then these two probably would have called it quits like
a few years ago maybe even. Definitely after that break they would have called it quits but yeah it is it's interesting that little element was left out and yeah that had such a significant impact on the show.
Silvan (1:05:49)
And it was heartbreaking to watch. Like you really got plunged deep in your heart. Now, the extra chapter. So this was something that one of our listeners commented on, on one of our socials. Like, are you going to cover the extra chapter? And I'm like, hell yeah, we're going to cover the extra chapter. Like, and I hadn't read the extra chapter until I got to this part. So I was almost, I was saving myself for it.
Declan (1:05:55)
and
Silvan (1:06:17)
And I know you have read the extra chapter, and so have I now. And this is very much from Ilya's point of view. So in a way, maybe Rachel Reed does pull a Stephanie Meyer and gives us extra content from Ilya's point of view that we've been asking for.
Declan (1:06:33)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (1:06:34)
But I wanted to ask you, what do you think the motivation was in releasing this chapter? Because it's not in the book, it's on her website for free, essentially. So what's the motivation? And it was released, I think, last year on the fifth year anniversary of the publication of Heated Rivalry. So what do you think the motivation behind this chapter is? Is she responding to criticism? Is she realizing that there's something
that's lacking in that scene? Like, what do you think it was?
Declan (1:07:10)
I think it's like an explanation as to why Ilya would be so cold with Shane at that moment in time because we see that Ilya is very careful about other people's feelings throughout the books and particularly in the long game you learn a lot more about Ilya thinks and what he feels and his true sort of his true representation of who he is as a person and it doesn't gel well with that scene it doesn't
bit like him. It feels like a different version of him. So I think this offers a bit more context as to what he was actually thinking when this was all going on. And it turns out that he was fucking head over heels and it scared the shit out of him. And this was his way of coping, basically. Like even justifies it to himself that the way he's treating Shane, it's teasing something out of him. He loves it when Shane is angry or pissed off at him. Like he
He literally talks about how even if he can remember that face, that will be enough to keep him going. He is so in love with him. It's ridiculous.
Silvan (1:08:19)
and you can see this from his point of view. And in fact, and I get really passionate about this chapter because from reading the book chapter, feels very distant, it feels very cold, it feels almost very manipulative in a way. But when you read the extra chapter on the website, I read it with a whole different tone. Like it feels more playful, it feels more like teasing, like you said, it doesn't feel like he's emotionally distancing himself.
or detaching himself or punishing Shane for any reason. It very much, it reads like a complete, it reads more warmly. And so for me, this is what the power of who's narrating the chapter does for me. And this is why it's so important that when you talked about in our previous episode about some of the inconsistencies over the language that was used by Shane in describing himself.
and we got a lot of comments on it. So thank you for that. But this is why who's narrating it is so important because it sets the tone of how we're reading things.
Declan (1:09:31)
Yeah, ⁓ because for Shane, this is like an agonized moment. It's like he's upset. it's emotional. It's it's really hard for him and doesn't understand why Ilya is doing this. And for Ilya, he's playing. He's toying with him. He's he is doing it like you would like with a long term partner. You just affectionately like tease each other. just you say bad shit.
but you're doing it from like a place of affection and of a knowing sort of teasing. ⁓ And it's like an expression of your love in sort of like a different form. ⁓ But for Shane, it's terrible because he doesn't understand Ilya's motivation behind it. And Ilya's motivation is that I really like you and I can't help but tease you because every little thing you do, whether you're angry, happy or sad, makes me happy or makes me love you more. It's crazy.
Silvan (1:10:00)
Right?
It is, it's messed up, but that's how they're communicating with each other right now. And you do see this longing that Ilya has for Shane in this chapter. And it completely almost redeems that scene for me in that, ⁓ Ilya's not as much of a dickhead that we think he is. Like actually, you know, and we see that in the, in the award scene from the extra chapter that, you know, he's very much panicking before he goes even.
on stage with Shane because it's been so long and how are they, what's going to happen. And, and so you see the sort of vulnerability for Ilya before he meets Shane, because it means so much to him. You wouldn't be panicking if you didn't give a shit.
Declan (1:11:16)
Yeah, and it's, he goes on a little bit of monologue before he sees him again. It's like, maybe this time I'll see him and I won't be there anything and it'll be fine. Wait, now he sees him. He's like, yeah, no, that was never going to happen. and that again, I think also reflects the idea of the power dynamic, not actually being in Ilya's hands because Ilya is the one that is, would do anything for him at this point. He's spiraling. Yeah. And his attempt at trying to regain control, like you just.
Silvan (1:11:28)
No.
He's spiraling.
Declan (1:11:44)
seen straight away that well that's just gone to shit straight away as soon as he sees them again. So yeah it's such a it's a fun little addition I think to the book and I think it really works in giving more context to you know the thought process behind it for both characters and it's interesting as well to show that two different perspectives can be seen from the exact same situation ⁓ even if the same events are unfolding so yeah it's a clever little bit of writing.
Silvan (1:12:14)
Yeah. and you can really see how much Ilya is down bad for Shane, because even when he's taking those selfies on the stage as part of the bit that they're doing at the awards, he doesn't actually have to take a photo. He's taking those photos deliberately. His hand is brushing the back of Shane's neck deliberately. Those are probably the only photos that either one of them have have of them together.
And that's so meaningful and so important for Ilya. He's the one facilitating that. And the way that we know how...
Declan (1:12:42)
Yeah.
Silvan (1:12:49)
Ilya is longing and yearning for Shane is in one of the quotes and I want to read it. It's from when they're finished and in bed. And Ilya says he didn't want to leave the bed because when he did, this would be over. Hollander wouldn't be smiling at him. Gorgeous and spent. He'd get dressed.
he'd leave, Ilya would be alone.
Declan (1:13:12)
Sad, isn't it?
Silvan (1:13:13)
It's so heartbreaking. And it just goes to show for me that Elia has more heart, I think. I think Elia's in it more than Shane is at this point.
Declan (1:13:26)
Yeah, I think the idea that I think they're both in love with each other. I just think Ilya is much more aware of it than Shane is at this point. Like, that's like sad. And it's it's a reoccurring theme for Ilya, his loneliness, his isolation, his like his lack of support, his lack of family. And this is just another sort of nail in the coffin. They sort of express that. It's the fact that he lets him go anyway, which is...
the saddest part because I know for a matter of fact that if Ilya offered to Shane, Shane would have stayed. At this point Shane is so in his feelings that he would have taken him up on the offer but they're just both so inexperienced that it just doesn't materialize so yeah, a sad little moment.
Silvan (1:14:10)
Yeah.
And there are two more quotes that the English literature student in me is wanting to pull up because it so perfectly demonstrates what you've just said. So Ilya says, why does it have to be you? He said aloud in Russian, why are you so perfect? It's fucking awful. And then later on in the chapter, he says, Ilya dropped a cigarette butt into Hollander's not empty vodka glass, watching the ash turn something pure and perfect.
into something dark and ugly. Goodbye, Hollander.
Declan (1:14:45)
Well, if that isn't a metaphor for how he viewed himself.
Silvan (1:14:50)
right? Like that is some good writing there.
Declan (1:14:52)
Yeah.
It is, yeah. And it's no coincidence that this writing is happening after this book, whenever she has years more experience of writing. And this just goes to show if you are a writer out there and you weren't happy with what came out first, maybe you got up on a criticism for it, keep writing. You get better over time. The more you do something, the better you'll get at it. So let this be a bit of encouragement for you because genuinely they are some of the best lines that Rachel Rees has written for her characters.
and it was done as like an extra that she did for an anniversary piece so it's yeah keep at it you know if you're writing follow your aspirations keep going
Silvan (1:15:34)
Yeah, and we'll be nicer, I promise. Well, maybe. ⁓
Declan (1:15:38)
Yeah. You deserve
it. No, we will be. I swear.
Silvan (1:15:43)
Yeah. And I think it's such a lovely way to tie in this extra chapter with the book. I'm so glad we got it at all because she didn't have to write it. Even if she wrote it, she didn't have to publish it. And I'm so thankful that we did get it because it does give us this whole new perspective.
Declan (1:16:04)
Yeah, yeah, it's a really nice thing that she did and I'm really happy that it's been added on as like an addition. I would almost be tempted to slot it under the original book, but you know, that's just me.
Silvan (1:16:16)
See, I had a thing, I felt that too. wondered why, because she had to reprint the books because of the demand. I'm wondering why she didn't put that chapter in there as like a bonus material, as an incentive to pay for people to even buy the book again.
Declan (1:16:22)
Mm.
Yeah. Maybe I word you a second edition.
Silvan (1:16:35)
Maybe, maybe we'll get a whole book on just Ilya. I live and breathe in hope.
Declan (1:16:41)
Maybe you will get that. never know.
Well, that's us for part two. I hope everyone enjoyed this. We really, really got into some really interesting moments from the show and the book within these three chapters. And also that extra chapter from Rachel Reed was just sort of the cherry on top. We're really enjoying discussing this. So if you have any questions for us or you have any thoughts, make sure to leave them in the comments. Don't forget to like and share this as well.
whatever social media she happened to be on. And also check out our book club, which is Long Game Podcast on Fable. At the moment we are on the fifth book, which is actually my favourite book out of the series. So I will be going into some discussions as well on Sunday ⁓ to sort of go into the details of that. But yeah, thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time for part three.