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The team from Force Technologies will be discussing all things obsolescence amongst themselves and with a mix of special guests from the industry.
00:00:16:14 - 00:00:30:14
Karen Salmon
Hi. I'm Karen Simon. I'm the CEO for technologies, and this month, I have the absolute pleasure to be joined by one of my favorites in the industry, John Barrett. So good morning, John.
00:00:30:17 - 00:00:35:18
Jon Barrett
Yeah. Good morning. Hello. It is a joy to be here and have a chat.
00:00:35:21 - 00:00:48:13
Karen Salmon
Well, it's actually the opposite way around that, because the last time we met, you interview me? Some eds. So, the the boot, as they say, is on my phone, but, so I get in trouble.
00:00:48:16 - 00:00:50:15
Jon Barrett
I'm in trouble now.
00:00:50:18 - 00:01:02:22
Karen Salmon
So maybe for a for the for sick, viewers, John, you can just quickly explain, what you do. In the industry, it's very exciting. And very worthwhile. So you just explain to us.
00:01:02:24 - 00:01:36:00
Jon Barrett
Yeah. Very quickly. My my qualifications are in product design. So I started in engineering, in automation and robotics. And then I ended up writing about engineering, where I've spent most of my, career and recently launched something called the Sustainable Engineering Alliance, to try and work with OEMs and introduce them to suppliers that can help them reduce the environmental impact of the products they design and manufacture.
00:01:36:02 - 00:01:42:21
Jon Barrett
This through best practice, design and production. So that's that's kind of where I am now. Yeah.
00:01:42:23 - 00:02:01:13
Karen Salmon
And how do you think, John, over the last few years, the OEMs are actually started to engage, with us and you and obviously the other people in the Alliance. Are they are they being engaging or are they just sort of putting their head in the sand, which is what they used to do?
00:02:01:15 - 00:02:33:19
Jon Barrett
Not now. Everything's changed. It's a new generation of engineers that, consider it to be part of their kind of obligation and role. And there's two forces at work. Well, number of forces at work, two primary forces. The goodwill of customers. So if you want, if you want to secure the goodwill of your customers, you really need to design products that are reliable, durable, energy efficient.
00:02:33:21 - 00:03:07:06
Jon Barrett
Yeah. The flip side is that for OEMs that have chosen maybe deliberately or accidentally to not follow that path, they're going to be facing levies and legislation. Like never before. Because society, has to take care of products that reach end of life. Maybe too early, or place, a, a drain on the sort of waste management systems, that are in place and that cost money.
00:03:07:08 - 00:03:07:17
Karen Salmon
Yeah.
00:03:07:20 - 00:03:37:23
Jon Barrett
Yeah. And and local authorities and governments, think that that's a waste of money, to be honest. And so what they're doing is they're nudging OEMs in the direction of, designing products, as I say, that last longer, require less input, consume less electricity, and at the end of their life can be dealt with, in a very efficient, way in terms of material recovery and reuse.
00:03:37:25 - 00:04:02:00
Karen Salmon
And and cycling. Yeah. So I know there's a big thing, you know, with, abi and people that recycle, we use on a system level. Obviously we are forced to on a component level, with our extraction process and and remanufacturing, but, yeah, I've, I've noticed that quite a few of our customers now are asking for longer term solutions.
00:04:02:00 - 00:04:12:21
Karen Salmon
They're designing for if you if such a word designing for sustainability. That and like I say, the reuse of it. So.
00:04:12:24 - 00:04:38:21
Jon Barrett
Yeah, it's, it's a quick example. So in the automotive industry, electric vehicles, they have very expensive, very elaborate battery systems and battery management systems. Now, the plan there, for example, is that once a battery, has served its useful life in a car where the demand is very hard on it electrically, it can be downscaled into less demanding environments.
00:04:38:21 - 00:05:03:04
Jon Barrett
So say a factory environment, factory robots, factory vehicles. When it's used, it's like they're. It could go into static storage, in, in businesses and in houses. And it's estimated that each of those life cycles is about a decade, if not more. Yeah. So, vehicle battery manufacturer today could have a usable life of maybe 30 or 40 years.
00:05:03:07 - 00:05:29:19
Jon Barrett
If it's designed well and can be looked after for that amount of time now. That's that's like two generations of engineers. Yeah. We're going to have to I'm going to have to look after that product. So it needs to be it needs to be designed well, but more importantly, it needs to be documented. Yeah. Well, that documentation needs to be shared via something like a digital product passport.
00:05:29:21 - 00:05:46:00
Jon Barrett
And the supply chain needs to travel with it. And so when a component, when a semiconductor does fail, which it will be just a manmade object. So the thing, there needs to be a supply chain in place to deal with that, potentially in 30 years time.
00:05:46:03 - 00:05:47:10
Karen Salmon
Yeah.
00:05:47:13 - 00:05:48:15
Jon Barrett
And that's what you.
00:05:48:18 - 00:05:49:06
Karen Salmon
Yeah.
00:05:49:08 - 00:05:59:20
Jon Barrett
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's why companies like force and other members of the Alliance, kick in with, long term tech management services.
00:05:59:22 - 00:06:25:00
Karen Salmon
Yeah. Yeah, we've definitely seen an up, up up demand, if you like, for our long term storage. And you and I talked about this eds about the my Titan building. My very my very posh portakabin. Yeah. But, you know, scarily enough, it's only been open a few months, and it's almost full. So I might have to persuade the chairman so I'd get another one.
00:06:25:03 - 00:06:44:00
Karen Salmon
But, yeah. And some of it is automotive as well. So we have got two automotive customers, parts in there only for short term. But to them, short term is two years up to us, two years is quite a long time. But they're taken up space. So,
00:06:44:03 - 00:07:04:28
Jon Barrett
Yeah, also, it's an interesting one because I'm about to do a post on this because a sort of thought experiment. And I will include reference to you guys in this, in Europe at the moment, there's a facility being configured to dismantle 20,000 cars a year. Well, but by by the manufacturer. Okay, so it's an automotive manufacturer.
00:07:05:01 - 00:07:36:05
Jon Barrett
And I calculated out that there are about probably, on average, about 100, PCB assemblies in a vehicle, right? So that's that's 2 million circuits. Just from one, just just from that one facility to deal with. Yeah. Potentially all of them could be if they're damaged, they could be repaired. If they've got valuable parts, like, components on the Adas boards, and on the battery management boards, they could be, maybe removed and put into storage.
00:07:36:08 - 00:07:54:21
Jon Barrett
Yeah. If they're damaged, they could be repaired with, with potentially new components or parts recovered from, other kind of like sports. Yeah. You know, 2 million printed circuit assemblies is, you know, that's that's that's a lot of work. Yeah.
00:07:54:23 - 00:08:14:06
Karen Salmon
And but also some of the, some of the parts on those boards will be obsolete as well. So yeah. So what happens when they come off. They're they're always have to do some bond management. Yeah. Which is you know, what we do. And then do the manufacturing, the replacement. Because to start redesign, then it's just going to be and I know you're very big on waste.
00:08:14:08 - 00:08:18:21
Karen Salmon
I mean, it's a redesign waste, isn't it? It's a complete waste of that time.
00:08:18:23 - 00:08:39:27
Jon Barrett
Yeah. You know, it's not just the. It's not just the design time. It's it's obviously the certification and re qualification. I was at an aerospace conference where, where person was talking about, the redesign of the flight system. That was going to be, that was going to take me about ten years and, and it's going to be millions of pounds.
00:08:39:28 - 00:09:07:02
Jon Barrett
Yeah. So so that one build. I couldn't actually believe the numbers they were telling me at the time. I thought the numbers were wrong. I couldn't believe it was going to take that amount of time. And that amount of money, it turns out, was true. Yeah. So yeah, anything you can do, to avoid a redesign in an industry that is, sort of covered with compliance requirements is to be applauded.
00:09:07:05 - 00:09:24:07
Karen Salmon
Well, I'm saying when we're in the aerospace business. So a lot of our projects are I've got to go through FAA compliance. By by the end customer. So we have to be pretty and we have to be sustainable. You know, one of one of the FAA's, conditions is you have to be able to prolong that product you have.
00:09:24:09 - 00:09:31:08
Karen Salmon
It has to be repeatable. So that's that was a new word I learned last week. I'll give that once you John. It's called repeatable.
00:09:31:10 - 00:09:31:29
Jon Barrett
Repeatable.
00:09:32:04 - 00:09:54:19
Karen Salmon
Repeatable. Yeah. So that's an aerospace term. And and change management, we, we have to show that if we are going to change it, how are we going to change it? Yeah. So but yeah, I mean, it's I think it's definitely ramping up. And you're doing a great job out there pushing it through, through the industry.
00:09:54:21 - 00:10:13:17
Karen Salmon
And. Yeah, well, it's young engineers. I mean, I'm not the oldest in the company. I'm the thanks to the second oldest, but we've got young, young people coming through. I mean, we've got young George, who's who's a graduate. So we have to have a sustainable company for them and a sustainable, solution for our customers.
00:10:13:19 - 00:10:15:22
Karen Salmon
So, yeah, it's.
00:10:15:25 - 00:10:43:02
Jon Barrett
It's just that, Canterbury. Christchurch, University, other kind of student end of year, event where I got to sort of, not not judge, but, kind of take a look at and score some of the entries. You know, there wasn't really much there that didn't have some aspect of sustainability, okay, integrated into it. And, you know, it's funny, it's the, you know, the at the moment, there's kind of a lack of engineers.
00:10:43:02 - 00:11:09:21
Jon Barrett
There's a lack of young engineers. Yeah. So, so in very in many respects it's a kind of buyer's market for them. And, and they have actually got a choice. They can say, do I want to work for a company that is knowingly not doing everything it could to minimize the impact of its products? Or do I want to work for, for a manufacturer that's embedded this as best practice design into their corporate infrastructure?
00:11:09:23 - 00:11:11:01
Karen Salmon
Yeah.
00:11:11:03 - 00:11:32:21
Jon Barrett
And a lot of them are choosing that as I talk to them. And, and the and they're enjoying it. And from a company's perspective, this, this legislative process, you know, I think I think next year, you can't sell a mobile, electronic products unless the battery is easily removable.
00:11:32:23 - 00:11:33:26
Karen Salmon
Oh, really?
00:11:33:28 - 00:11:45:05
Jon Barrett
Yeah. So, so that's flipping that industry on its head. The French have introduced a product reliability and repairability index.
00:11:45:12 - 00:11:45:26
Karen Salmon
Okay.
00:11:45:27 - 00:11:56:25
Jon Barrett
So when you go to buy an electrical appliance that, you know before you've bought it, how how long it's going to last and how easy it will be to repair.
00:11:56:28 - 00:11:59:07
Karen Salmon
Okay, good. Well, so we've got the right repair bill anyway.
00:11:59:08 - 00:12:03:29
Jon Barrett
So the right to repair is coming through. And I volunteer at a repair cafe.
00:12:04:02 - 00:12:07:08
Karen Salmon
I was going to say, how would you. How is your repair cafe going?
00:12:07:10 - 00:12:28:15
Jon Barrett
Trust. Trust me, for a long time. OEM have thought very little about, product disassembly and repair. They thought an awful lot about product assembly. Yeah. But the problem is, optimizing for manufacture is often the opposite of optimizing for disassembly.
00:12:28:17 - 00:12:30:05
Karen Salmon
Okay.
00:12:30:08 - 00:12:48:03
Jon Barrett
You know, clipping something to clipping an enclosure together in a way that it can't be unclipped. Yeah. It's a bit it's a bit of a head scratcher when it comes to repair. So, but trust me, we have a queue at the door. Good people. People love their products and want them repaired.
00:12:48:09 - 00:13:07:21
Karen Salmon
We have one in our local, as well, so it's. It's definitely thing. I'm running out of time now. But, obviously on a person note, thank you so much for coming to our open day. The the, keeping up with this sustainable thing. I hope you enjoy the tour of, our new test lab. Yeah.
00:13:07:24 - 00:13:26:19
Karen Salmon
And and I'll see my Titan building. So, we'll be, we'll be supplying customers for another 40 years, hopefully. When my youngest is come through. So thank you very much for coming for that. It's a our pleasure. Thanks for talking to me today. And I will see you at the next show.
00:13:26:21 - 00:13:28:01
Jon Barrett
Fantastic. See you soon.
00:13:28:03 - 00:13:30:03
Karen Salmon
So thanks very much for listening, everybody.