The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader

A patrol gone wrong and being attacked by the Taliban! Travis Bader talks with his long time friend Jason Budd to discuss lessons learned while serving in the British Army. This episode builds upon Silvercore Podcast Ep. 34 "SAS Selection and Other Stories" and looks at key lessons learned from adverse situations which can be employed in any aspect of ones life.

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

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I'm Travis Bader
and this is The

Silvercore podcast.

Join me as I discuss
matters related to

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and outdoor pursuits

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This is the last week to
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If you want to be a
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this package is worth

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check out Silvercore.ca
for full details.

All right, I'm sitting
down with Jason

Budd, who is backed
by popular demand

from The Silvercore
Podcast listeners.

Jason, you know, this,
some of our listeners

might not, but you know,
we put the podcast in

the audio format for
people to listen to

while they're driving or
doing whatever they can

play in the background.

But I also put a version
on YouTube and you

have the distinction of
having our most viewed

Silvercore Podcast
with at current count.

I think we're about
23,000 views on the

last episode we did.

So congratulations,
Jason.

Well, you know, Trav,
um, I was getting

constant text messages.

Every time we moved
up a few thousand,

I think you're more
excited than I was.

Yeah.

I was pretty excited.

Yeah.

I, I don't know.

Um, the feedback
we're getting on, it

was fantastic too.

I mean, people were
listening through with

a critical ear and I'm
sure the subject matter

probably somehow hit
in YouTube a little bit

because we're talking
about SAS selection

and the, uh, the time
in the british army.

And, uh, talking
about that afterwards,

you had some other
pretty cool stories.

And then thank you very
much for agreeing to

come on back and, uh,
and share some of these.

One of the, um, questions
that actually came

up was about wearing
your own footwear

while doing selection.

And some guy's
like, no, that's BS.

You can't wear your
own footwear while

you're doing selection.

So yeah.

You know, you you've
talked about that one

aspect of don't anything
I went on selection with

was, um, I think the
Bergen and, and my socks

that were issued, right.

That's right.

Maybe the water bottles,
but one thing that I,

stood out for me from the
start with the British

army was that we actually
could purchase our own

gear and a lot of aspects
because a lot of the,

the British equipment
was robust and meant

to last, which meant
it was heavy, right?

So a lot of times we
could supplement that

with our own day socks,
um, our own altering our

wedding or belt kit or
alter even our Bergens

and things like that.

So, I mean, that was
quite common within

that I appreciated.

Uh, with going, you
know, within the British

temporary, in my regimen,
I know other regiments

are more stricter than
others, but it was

very common for me in
the Highlanders and

then forced squats.

A lot of what we bought,
we could use in the

field where I remember
being, you know, like

in, in the Canadian
army where that wasn't

necessarily promoted.

A little bit different.

Yeah.

A little bit different,
you know, and you know,

not, you know, I have
friends PPCLI and people,

you know, that's the,
uh, Princess Patricia

Canadian Light Infantry.

After I have friends in
the RCR Royal Canadian

Regiment, and those two
regiments are completely

different in from hearing
the stories of what

they were allowed to
use, issued, non issued.

And that brings up a,
a point drive, um, that

a lot of my friends and
family from the last

podcast that didn't
have the military

environment so that we
use too many acronyms.

So we're going to
have to try and, and,

and work around that.

So when I say PPLI, I'm
like, Princess Patricia

Canadian Light Infantry.

Right.

So I think we'll just
be mindful of that.

As we work on through.

Work on through it, yeah.

Well, you know, off
air here, we're talking

about a couple pretty
cool stories and I

think there's a way
we can segue into it.

If we talk about senior
brecon, so you were

on a platoon Sergeant
battle course that'd be

senior brecon is that?

Yeah, that's correct.

We talked about in the
last podcast where I

did my junior brecon,
which is this extra

commanders battle course.

And I also did senior
brecon, but it didn't

really get into it
too much, but both of

those courses are our
career courses for

the British entry.

And you can specialize.

You know, you can go to
mortars, you can go to,

uh, anti-tank snipers
recky and they all have

their section commander
courses as well.

But the gateway for
promotion and advancement

in the, in the infantry
really is the rifle

company junior brecon,
senior junior brecon.

Okay.

It is streamlined for
your career advancement.

Okay.

And it's actually
the quicker way of

going through it.

So a lot of the guys
that would go to the

support companies, which
is where the anti-tank

and mortars are, the
guys would come back into

the rifle stream to do
their career courses.

Interesting.

Back in, just like if
you went to the DEP,

I said, I went to the
Depot, which is the

recruit training school.

ITC Catterick, infantry
training's Catterick,

where that is, where
all the British recruits

for the infantry
are trained, that is

part of your career
advancement, really?

Because you need those
external write-ups, um,

reports on yourself.

But in order to get
there, you have to

do junior brecon.

So if you did section
commander course, and

let's say anti-tank,
that won't allow you

to teach at the depot.

Got it.

Right.

So it's the same for
us with senior brecon.

So I think it's about
20 it's 20 years

old now, but there
was a YouTube series

called battle stripes.

Okay.

And it's the old way
or the old course

for senior brecon.

I've seen that one.

Yeah.

So that, that was.

A lot of that,
that course was

just like realistic
and geared towards

like survival, like
surviving the course.

Um, the emphasis
definitely changed by

the time I was rolling
around juniors and senior

brecon where they were
really trying to educate

us and get that critical
thinking involved, but

still had the resilience
and the robustness of the

core principles of, of
that, of that training.

Right.

Okay.

So yeah, senior
brecon that's based in

Brecon obviously, we
call it, I, infantry

training center brecon.

And they run numerous
elements of this

career leadership
aspect of the training.

They run, as we talked
about the section

commanders battle
course, and they also

do the skill at arms
course prior to that.

So you do seven weeks
of basically being

able to teach every
single weapon system

in the British army.

So the subject matter
experts of that, and

then they move onto
their tactics phase,

which is junior brecon,
believe it's eight weeks.

Okay.

And then, then they go
back to the battalions

and they end up
usually in the depots

or wherever teaching.

And then, um, usually
after that that's a

two year posting the
take to the depots.

Then they're going to
do another, within the

next two years, they
usually end up going

to senior brecon.

So about anywhere
from two to four years

after you can end
up back down there.

But what's interesting,
uh, which was new for

me, in order to go on
these courses, junior

brecon and senior brecon
yet to do a pre-course

in your battalion.

Okay.

And the pre-courses I
fell in a lot of times

were more demanding
than the actual courses.

So it'd be like two
weeks, like for example,

for junior brecon you
would be on this two week

course, you'd be taught
how to teach lessons.

You'd be taught how to
deliver orders at the

section commander level
and bumping one up to

platoon Sergeant level.

And, um, fitness,
a lot of fitness.

Sure.

Being evaluated, and
then you're evaluated.

So you could be on junior
brecon or the pre-course

for juniors or seniors
with maybe 20 other guys.

And you might
be competing

for three spots.

Okay.

And it's simply a matrix.

They basically
score everything

and they have the
recommendations of who

the top candidates are.

And then usually those
are the ones that get

picked to go down.

So it's a competition
from that point on,

in the battalion for
your advancement to

keep moving forward.

Right.

So you're competing
for those two to three

spots each regiment
has to go down there.

Sounds fun actually.

It's, actually can
be stressful, Trav.

So , you know, physically
demanding, but what's

interesting was, um, I
was actually deployed to

Iraq with my battalion
and a lot of times what

happens is that when
you're on deployments,

they still expect the
career advancements to

keep moving forward.

So they'll send guys back
to going career courses.

So I was up in Al
Amarah which is the

British sector of Iraq.

There's bazer al
amarah and Al Amarah

it's kind of like
the British sector of

the Marines Fallujah.

It's kind of like where
a lot of the fighting

wise and a really
intense place to be, but.

Uh, a group of us,
we had two companies

up there, delta
company, bravo company,

elements of that.

The senior section
commanders were sent

to Cyprus, the dura
pre-course with the

Royal Highland Fusiliers,
which was based there.

They were running it.

They weren't going to
run one in, in Iraq,

obviously kind of work.

So there was a group of
us that we were flowing

out of Al Amarah down to
Bazrah Bazrah to Cyprus.

And then we did our two
week pre-course with the

Royal Highland Fusiliers.

Okay.

And Cyprus is interesting
and editing phase it's,

it's a lot of elevation
gain where they train

brockie, lot of, uh,
prickly things, uh,

pretty robust terrain
to be training in, but

I was successful on
the pre-course and then

I was selected to go
down to senior brecon.

So, uh, the guys that
weren't successful,

they went back to her
and then the rest of

us were that were, were
sent down to do juniors

and senior brecon.

Okay.

So that's how I ended
up in senior brecon.

This time around I,
when I did junior

brecon was, I just
came out of Kosovo.

So it was a winter tour.

Uh, we did a
lot of walking.

Uh, the food was
a lot better being

on tour believe it
or not then when,

actually in battalion.

Yeah, because, uh, the
budget was higher and

it had that kind of
like a lot of natal set

meals versus when I was,
you know, back in the

barracks, we weren't
knowing as you know,

eating the best food.

No, you guys weren't, you
don't have a reputation.

We talked about
that didn't we.

We do, we did.

So that's one thing
I did suffer a lot on

was, um, my fitness
for junior brecon.

Okay.

The soldier
aspect, wasn't it.

But we would be doing
the two mile assessment,

five mile assessment,
eight mile assessment,

three mile assessment.

These are all with
like 35 to 55 pound,

um, gear at the end of
each training cycle.

Every Friday we'd have
to do an assessments.

You're tired.

You'd been up all night
doing your drills or

your, your patrols.

Right.

And then they expect
you to do a two mile

run with 35 pounds
in 21 minutes, right.

Through the training
area, right.

For example.

So I did struggle on that
aspect of it on junior

brecon but by the time
I hit senior brecon I

had a different mindset.

I had still had
my SAS fitness.

I also knew what
was to expect.

So that's one thing
that I did do on

junior brecon a lot was
Friday, Saturday nights.

I'd always stay
local with the guys

and we'd party a
lot, which doesn't

help your fitness.

It does not does it.

Help your fitness
at all Trav, right.

As we know, and as you
get older, it's harder

to process that, right.

But on senior brecon I
would do all my homework.

Would we be knocked
off Friday afternoon?

I would do all my
homework, all my laundry,

all my administration.

There is a kebab
shop in brecon that

is my favorite one
in the entire UK.

I'd get a kebab hit back
to my barracks and I'd go

to bed and in the morning
I'd get up and I'd go

run the SAS routes.

Up in the beacons.

Right.

And that'd be,
be knocked.

I'd be, I'd say
I'd be knocked off.

I mean, I'd be done my
training myself by, by

noon and I would shower.

And then my girlfriend
at the time stayed in

Tewkesbury, which is
just down the road.

So then I would pick
her up, go for dinner,

stay over, have Sunday
dinner with her folks.

And then I'd head back to
brecon Sunday afternoon.

And I would be in
bed 8:30, 9 o'clock,

ready to go for the
week's activities.

And compared to a lot
of the guys, like the

jocks or the Scots
would drive all the

way up to Scotland.

So they're rolling
in at like midnight,

Sunday night, trying
to get things done.

And then there, so
I had a different,

different approach
this time around.

So I was really enjoying,
I didn't really enjoy

juniors as much, but I
was really having a good

time on senior brecon
at the time, right.

So that's why I
think a lot of my,

my, my approach
was different paid

dividends on the course.

Um, the first part of
it is called LFTT, live

fire tactical trainer.

Okay.

Seven weeks long.

And that has to do
with, I mentioned the

junior and they do the
skill at arms course

first seven weeks right.

This course is geared
towards planning, running

and conducting live
fire movement ranges,

up to company level.

And this is
geared towards the

platoon commanders.

And the senior NCO's
you do know a lot of, we

call them templates, and
traces for, you know,

where the we're going
to set your ranges up.

And then there's a
lot of work to it.

Yeah.

I was glad it was done.

And then moving
into the tactics.

So the tactics is where
we call it senior brecon

and that's eight weeks
long and it's taught

by color sergeants.

Okay.

So we call them colors.

Yeah.

So it's not a derogatory
term for people of color.

It's basically a
rank that that was a

senior NCO that was
there to protect.

The colors are the flag.

Right?

Right.

So we call them.

So it's a senior NCO,
we call color sergeants.

So relating it to
Canada, for example,

would be a rank between
their warrant and, and

master warrant officer.

Okay.

So Brent actually has
a rank fork, right?

And traditionally, those
color sergeants are

either a CQ mess, company
quartermaster Sergeant.

So they look after the
gear and the logistics

of the company.

But in the infantry as
well, there are also the

senior instructors, so
they train junior brecon

senior brecon platoon
commanders course, and

other courses like that.

And it's really important
in your advancement

that like I went to
the depl as a section

commander, I needed
that external writeup.

Two years.

If I continue in the
British army, I would

have had to take, or
should have taken, um,

a two year as a colour
sergeant instructor.

And actually I was
recommended to come back

and work on the platoon
commanders course.

Okay.

Because I had a really
good disposition

of, um, working with
the officers and.

People liked ya.

You're a likable guy.

Yeah.

Likable guy.

So I think I had interest
to go work and I think

it's really important
to actually focus on

our platoon commanders.

Cause they're actually
the leaders of, of

our platoons and I,
as a sergeant, I took

it upon myself that
I had to mentor my

platoon commander.

I didn't have to tell
them what to do, my

job was to mentor
him and develop him.

And I thought that
was really important.

But one thing that I had
a hard time mentoring

was that if I had
an arrogant officer.

Right.

It was really hard
to mentor and I'm

just like, yeah.

You know, carry on.

And you let them
fall on their face.

But, but I, there are
few and far between, like

I had some phenomenal
officer's as platoon

commanders, bosses,
right in my time.

I guess the ego can
kind of get away

on some people.

Yeah.

At some point and
then it's, uh.

I mean, we all
have a bit of ego.

Yeah.

Right.

I think as a section
commander we're expected

how that ego, but platoon
Sergeant definitely,

you need to have that
ego, but I think it's,

it's, it's healthy, but
then it's also important

to be humble right.

And maybe that ego is the
confidence that we have

in our professionalism
and ability right.

And I'm not taking
anything away from the

non infantry, because
they will judge us

and just think, you
know, the infantry

is this and that.

But we also had that chip
on our shoulder that we

were the infantry or the
bayonette or the spear

of, of the army right.

So, um, and I was
proud of that.

Like I remember on senior
year senior brecon, we're

getting we're on the
parade square and we're

loading our packs up.

And honestly, by the
time you had all your

gear and your Bergens,
probably 75 pounds

to 80 pounds easily.

Like I couldn't
pick it up Trav.

I had to sit on the
ground, put my bergen on,

roll over to stand up and
then walk to the truck.

And then they have
these all alarms

skill at arms courses.

So, you know how they had
the infantry guys going

on the skill of arms?

Well, they have
alarms, so the core

guys were going to
R do these courses

so they can teach.

And I can remember this
Sergeant, maybe he was,

um, an engineer or maybe
he was like, REME which

is the role electronic
mechanical engineers.

And he was going by and
he just stopped and we're

helping ourselves get
up and he's shaking his

head and goes, guys, I
don't know how you do it.

And I'm like, I
don't know how I do

it either because we
actually left that

point and we did a 16
kilometre insertion tab.

W which is a March.

We, it tab is a tactical
advanced battle.

Right.

Across an impact area
and impact areas where

the artillery and
mortars land and it's

grass and it's wet.

And we're walking
through this with 75, 80

pound packs on, right.

Wow.

You know, so that
was kinda like,

I'm a, I don't know
how I do it either.

And you know that the.

But you just do it.

Well, the joke is, you
know, now people are

dealing with VAC, which
is Veterans Affairs,

Canada, or wherever,
and they're trying

to relate maybe knee
or ankle injury isn't

related to our service.

And it's like, the meme
is showing like this

infantry men with an
80 pound pack, right?

Yeah.

I think it's going
to have an effect

somehow later on in
the life, for sure.

Sure.

Yeah.

Like I'm deaf as
a doornail, right?

As we know.

Yeah, I cracked
your audio here

at the beginning.

Oh Trav, I got
hearing aids.

Oh, sorry mate.

Yeah, I think we were
talking about ego and I

think just to summarize
that, I mean, part of

it is, is healthy, but I
think within moderation

to be that humble,
quiet professional, I

think goes a long way
for, for me in how I

respond and responding
to others right.

Yeah.

And learning as well.

Yeah.

I do think it's
important though, to

have, you know, like
the section commanders

and platoon sergeants
to have the confidence.

So I think a lot
of people mistake

ego for confidence.

And I think maybe that's
the connection we're

missing is that you're
confident in your ability

and your skills and,
and, uh, your trade and,

and your leadership.

And I think
that's important.

And a lot of
times that can get

mixed up with ego.

So I think maybe
that's you know.

That's a good
perspective.

And I guess confidence
to the point of not

accepting any other
options or outside

opinions or reasonable
persuasion, that's

probably when it
turns into ego.

You know, for sure Trav,
and we can, we've seen

that a lot and we've
talked about a lot of

that, what we've seen on
social media and people

with their experiences.

But, um, you know, it,
it, this, this isn't

new and for me, and this
actually came to light,

like when I did come back
to Canada, I, I, I was

applying for the RCMP.

And I was applying in
the fire service and

people say, you know,
with the RCMP is like,

why are you going to
the fire servers was the

number one part of my
resettlement training.

They actually
covered a lot of

the training costs.

So I did that, but I
remember the RCMP saying

like, why are you in
the fireproof test?

And I said, well, I need
a career when I come

back, what happens if you
do for me, then I need

to keep moving forward.

And he's like, Oh yeah,
that's a fair one.

But that did come up.

Like I had, like a
lot of my confidential

reports were really,
um, positive and, and,

and showed me after
boots that I achieved.

A lot of my references
indicated, you know,

great leadership
and skills.

And, but they kind of
looked at that with ego.

Right.

And I had to explain to
some of my references

is to say, well, it's
very confident in his

ability and skills is
different than ego,

but I don't think they
could relate that.

So it was hard.

It was a hard sell.

Well, it's a different
background too, and this

is a different skill set.

And so when he, when
he comes across, when

somebody looks at that,
um, I guess in some

ways, and I'm not saying
that people looking at

that we're a number two
person, but a number

two person can look at a
number one person and be

intimidated and attribute
confidence to ego.

I know where you're
going with this Trav, eh.

You're talking about
the recruiting teams.

I get it.

Yeah.

Let me, well.

I'll tread lightly
on that one.

You know, Trav,
um, and I agree.

You know, they, they look
for like-minded people

and then long story
short, I, they deferred

me for a year and they
said, we're going to

defer you because we
think you need more time

to adjust coming back.

And, um, you know,
we find maybe

your approaches to
military right now.

And then the next phone
call was Vancouver

fire hire, hiring me.

So, um, and I,
I'm very thankful.

I believe our
journeys are the

way they, they go.

Um, when our, when
the RCMP team reached

out to me in a year,
instead of I still

just go to the Depot,
I said, no, thank you.

I found a good career
choice for me, which

actually allowed me to
move into the outdoor

field, which I love so
much and therapy and work

toward being a mountain
guide and maybe looking

at some adventure therapy
programs down the road.

That'd be fantastic.

I had, I had a, um, I
thought the other day

of all things Trav I
was making a I tikka

masala, homemade naan
bread, nice salad,

making some cheesecake,
a little bit of toppings

and whipped cream.

And I'm like, man, one
of the best things a

fire service taught
me was how to cook.

And I go, had I gone
to the RCMP I probably

be making craft
dinner right now.

That's right,
peanut butter and

jelly, craft dinner.

I don't know, maybe not.

Maybe not.

But I was just like, I
mean, that's something

that I, you know,
even in Afghanistan,

I, I will put up one
of the pictures was

that, you know, we were
on hard rations for

seven, eight months.

I can, after a month
I couldn't do it.

So we were buying
potatoes, onions,

and the locals oil,
we're making fries.

We were buying flour,
making pancakes.

We were doing anything
we could to supplement

our, our food.

And they're out.

There's one picture of
me cooking, like spam

onions and potatoes
over a mess tin.

Hey, spams not bad.

I was diehard against
spam until I went

to Hawaii and they
have a spam musubi

as they call them.

And it's actually
pretty good.

They do, they deep fry
it up in the sauce and

put rice, but that's a
little bit off topic.

Well, I mean, I mean
the Brits have their

corn beef and hash,
which was horrible.

Well, that reminds
me of cat food.

Not that I know cat
food tastes like Trav,

but it was, because
that's why we were

supplemented our meals.

You know, but yeah.

So coming back to senior
brecon the tactics phase

is seven weeks long.

Yeah.

And because I was in
that training cycle, I

was in, we have to do
a, we call it so that

we have the SAS special
air service to British

special forces fan
dance, which is that 24

kilometer over the Brecon
beacons down the Roman

road, back over, you
have four hours to do it.

Well, there's also a
senior brecon fan dance.

And it's around the
same distance, slightly

different route.

And that was a
very important

assessment for people.

And simply it's also an
assessment in physical,

a bit ability, but
you also, for the

potential leaders to be
in a leadership role.

And I remember one of
the colour sergeants

from my regiment, Tony
Raulson, big shout

out to Tony Ralston.

So late entry major
Nell's done really

well, but he was one
of my first platoon

sergeants and mentors
in Highlanders.

He was our colour
Sergeant down there.

Not my personally, but
he was in my, my company,

senior guy, and he said,
Jason, you got to get

in a leadership role.

And as luck would
have it, I was in

leadership role.

I ended up being 51
mortar men, number two.

So I had a satchel,
the mortar satchel I'm

like, how am I going to
excel here really hard

because they'd have
the platoon commander

appointment, platoon
Sergeant appointment,

the, uh, section matter
appointments to icees.

I'm not in leadership.

Well, I'm just getting
assessed on my fitness

and I think the
weights at 55 pounds.

Okay.

We've ordered gear
for this and we set

off and I, and I'm
the platoon commander.

What's interesting
about seniors is that

even though it's for
the infantry, within

the British army, the
SF go on it as well.

So there'll be guys
from the SAS on it,

Pathfinders on it.

So the platoon
commander was allowed

from Hereford, one
of the SAS slots.

And, um, he had a guy
assigned to him as

the platoon signaler.

So he had his 55
pounds plus the platoon

radio does every
radio that he's got

and within 500 meters
of setting off this

platoon sigler drops.

Okay.

Uh, he just
couldn't do it.

Yeah.

So I run over and I
grabbed the radio and

I throw it on my pack.

I'm like I got it.

So I still have my
51 kit, the mortar

kit, and I've got
the radio and I'm on

with, with the platoon
commander SAS slot.

And off we go and I just
stay with him and we

start climbing the fence.

He had an up there
and numerous times I

had guys, Hey, Jason,
I can get the radio.

No, I got it, I
got it, I got it.

I just stayed on the
radio, stayed with me

and I just stayed up with
platoon commander and

we both knew could, we'd
been up there so much.

We know the routes
and we're just leading

both him and I are
navigating the platoon

through the checkpoints.

And then about halfway
through you end up having

to go up this three
kilometre, like you've

come down the penny fan.

Yeah.

You crossed over and
I don't know the name

of it, but it's like
three to four kilometres

straight uphill.

And they introduce
the staff, introduce

a stretcher.

I believe the stretcher
is 300 pounds.

Okay.

So it's a stretcher with
tank tread on it, tank

track to get 300 pounds.

So that's part of it.

Now you need to get,
the platoon needs to

get this 300 pound
plus all the other

gear up this, right.

Yeah.

And, um, we also had some
other platoon weapons.

We had, uh, uh,
the general purpose

machine gun in Canada
the C6, UK GPMG.

We also had the light
machine gun weapons.

So in UK it's a minimi,
Canada it's a C9.

The 51's in there.

So the platoon gets
a stretcher and the

platoon commander goes
to music, Jason, don't

get on the stretcher,
you got the radio.

I'm like, okay.

So that's fair because
I've had the radio

the whole time.

And as the platoon
starts, moving up, guys

are dropping off and
the color sergeants

yelling, no weapon
systems get left behind.

They move forward
with the stretcher.

So I looked back, one of
the section commanders

has two rifles and
somebody has a the the,

minimi or C9, extra now.

Because there's guys
fall back, they can't

keep up the weapons.

You got to keep
coming forward.

So I started taking,
like, I took a C a C9

or minimi off one of
the section commanders.

I took a rifle, I think
ended up with the 51.

So I had, uh, I had
a minimi, my rifle,

another rifle and the 51.

Yeah.

And I'm doing this job
because I had still had

this SAS fitness and
I'm, and I'm training

on the, on the, on
my weekends for it.

And now I'm actually
like, uh, well, we

can't use his name
and you'll be, you'll

beep that out eh.

Yeah.

I'll beep it out.

So, so the platoon
commander he

jumps on, right.

And now I'm actually
leading the platoon

up and there's one of
these, one of the, the,

the lead colour Sergeant
in my platoon was from

one para and he yells
up and he's like, Budd!

And I go, yes, colour.

He goes, do you
want any more gear?

I go, I'm good colour.

Right.

So I go up, I lead
us up and we, when we

level off, we can see
the checkpoint and it's

about 500 metres away.

And the boss platoon
commander, it goes,

Jase, go check us in.

So we'll just
roll through.

So I ran, still got all
the gear, I ran, checked

us in, got us a signed
in to that checkpoint,

got the new grid.

We were going, gave it
to the boss and off we

went and we finished it.

So I actually got, they
get a grade for it.

I got it.

They usually, they
don't grade, like

as an appointment,
they don't grade

you, they just grade
you on your fitness.

Sure.

But I got a
grade, an A grade.

Okay.

We're doing the fan
dance, which is rare.

Usually they just
say pass or fail.

If you weren't in a
platoon commander,

platoon Sergeant
role and ended up

getting an A grade.

So that was a rarity.

I got an A grade for my
fitness and leadership.

Sure.

Within that.

So that was on
the senior fan.

So pretty emotional, but.

Yeah, it'd be a heck
of a lot of work.

The, you know, we
were talking about the

training that you did
in senior brecon and

how regimented it was
and how proper it was

and the advice that you
got from Robbie Gilmour

yeah.

So I guess leading
into this Trav was

that all the ranges
in the UK were booked

because at the time
when I was on seniors,

I believe 2007, January.

So they run courses three
times a year, January,

March, and then July
or something, right.

So I, luck would
have it here.

I am again, in January
on whales, right?

Yeah.

Um, but all the ranges
are booked because UK is

in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So that takes priority.

So what was happening
was, there were taking

the final exercise of
seniors in the platoon

commaders battle
course and taking us to

either Malawi or Kenya.

Okay.

So our final exercise
is four weeks long

in the bush, so
it's kind of cool.

Considering you could
go to brecon or you end

up in Malawi, Africa.

Yeah.

So prior to us going
to Malawi Africa,

they brought in a
subject matter expert.

The company
commander did.

Right.

And when I say, when
we talk about the

orbat which is the
organization, how it's

structured, there'd
be three platoons in

senior brecon and a
three, three platoons

would have roughly
about 30 guys each.

So there's 90 of
us and the staff

in this auditorium.

And as I, they didn't
tell us who the

guest speaker was.

So as I walk in, I,
you know, visualize,

check everything out
and I see that there

is this civilian
gentlemen sitting there

and he's older, maybe
not at, you know, the

fittest he could be.

Not the prime
of his life.

The prime of his life.

And I'm just
sitting there going.

Man, like what is this
guy going to teach us?

Who is this guy, right?

And when the company
commander stood up

to introduce him and
introduced him as

Peter McAleese, and
he wrote the book,

No Mean Soldier.

I've got that book, yeah.

And it's interesting book
for the guys to read.

And a quick summary
of, of Peter was that

he joined the British
Parachute Regiment,

British SAS, and then he
went to Zimbabwe, which

used to be Rhodesia and
he fought, I believe in

the Rhodesian SAS and
he wrote a book about

his time and he ended
up in after the war

ended, ended up in the
South African forces

and then out and about,
and I believe he was

involved in that movie
that came out about

taking down Escobar.

Right.

He was at a bad Delaware
crash and not to divert

from that, but I was
like, wow, I read his

book and this is Peter.

So this is going
to be great.

To learn from
this, right.

Totally.

And you mentioned Robbie
Gilmour and Robbie

Gilmour was a Canadian
soldier that went and

volunteered and joined
the Rhodesian forces

as well and Peter was
his platoon Sergeant

and there's a book or
in his book, there is

Robbie Gilmour standing
there doing paperwork

after an attack.

And I'm like, that's
Robbie Gilmour.

So as a young guy, I was
17 years old on my basic

training here, robbie
was my platoon warrant

on basic training.

And I remember him
telling the platoon that

when you do this for
real, this platoon or

bot or organized it'll
fall apart, and it's

not going to matter one
section, two section,

three section, it's
going to be you group, do

this, you group do that.

And this needs
to happen now.

And that stuck with me
as a young 17 year old

wide-eyed listening
to Robbie Gilmour.

So bringing it back
to senior brecon.

Peter did his
presentation talked

about some of the bush
fighting he did, and the

bush tactics, he really
focused on that element,

not anything else that
he did after right.

Um, but at the end of
his presentation, all

the colour sergeants
were surrounded him.

Right.

And chatting.

So I kinda like started
to sneak between them.

Yeah.

Right.

And I could see Peter
looking at me and the

colour sergeants are
looking at me like, okay,

what's this guy doing?

And I just
said, Hey, sir.

Uh, my name is Jason
Budd and I'm from Canada

and Robbie Gilmour was
my old platoon warrant,

our Simba, my regiment,
and his eyes lit up

and the connection.

And he was like, Oh, like
the connection was really

phenomenal to have that.

And he's like,
how's Robbie doing?

I said, well, you
heard he's doing this.

And I heard he's doing
that, doing well.

He's all.

That's great, great, can
you pass on my regards?

Small world.

Another shout out
to Mark Lundy from

the Seaforth year.

And Mark got a message
to Robbie said, Hey,

Jason just met Peter
at a presentation

prior going to Malawi.

And you know, it
was very, and Robbie

said that it's
very small world.

Totally is.

Yeah.

Small world.

When you push yourself
hard and you start

working your way up, the
food chain, the number

of people that you can
look side to side, your

peers will definitely
start to, to narrow down.

So, um, th these are
some, some bigger

names in the world of
professional soldiering.

That's for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

So Malawi, so two, three
days prior to going to

Malawi, we were still
doing our range training.

And it would be, it was
snowing, sleet, wet.

We're doing a tac
range and I'm in a

river and freezing.

And then three days
later, we are in

Malawi, Africa, 55
above and raining.

12 hours to climatize
and the hanger, catch

up, sleep and you're out.

But it's interesting.

Before we went out,
the Sergeant major

said, guys, I've put a
barrel of DEET in the,

in your laundry room so
go dip your combats in.

You go over to Malawi.

Yeah.

So I do it.

And as I walk in, my
eyes are burning from

this DEET and I dip
it in and I'm like,

this can't be good.

And I started doing
research on DEET, agent

orange and all this
stuff from Vietnam.

So I washed my combats
about four times.

After that?

After that.

Where a lot of guys just
took it out, dried it.

They were dipping it
in barrels Trav, right.

DEET works awesome.

Don't get near plastic,
it'll melt your plastic.

Oh, I know, I
had a watch.

Oh did you?

Back in the day melt
to my hand, right.

Plastic watch, the
vacuum, the old Timex.

Yeah, melted to my hand.

Woke up, but the DEET
on my hand, yeah.

So I washed that
out and they also

put us on Laurium.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And it didn't work for
me, like put us on about

two weeks prior to going.

It did not work
for me at all.

Yeah.

I was like the guy I'd
be standing on my cot

or in my bunk, in brecon
at 2:00 AM thinking

I'm swat, bad dreams,
swatting at birds in

the room and stuff.

And I just think,
but he did.

So I had to go off that.

I went on this other,
this other meds.

We can probably
talk about that

at another story.

It's great.

The meds they put me
on is quite funny.

Yeah.

But yeah.

So then we, we ended up
in Malawi and the final

exercise is four weeks.

Two weeks blank fire.

Okay.

Training and then two
weeks live fire training.

So it's pretty intensive
final exercise.

And we're mostly
working in our, in

our platoons during
patrols and attacks

and deliver patrols,
fighting patrols.

And then at the live
fire, we start coming

together more as a
company and doing

more or company level
attacks and everything.

Um, But I remember
like one of the

first few nights
being in our harbor.

And I think we talked
about, we haven't

done that podcast yet.

We talked about, about
the, uh, the lion

circling the harbor
at night, and there'd

be like one rifle.

One of the colour
sergeants would have one

rifle with live rounds
and that would be it, in

our group of 30, right.

For example.

But the, we had
a pair of flares.

On the century
positions the fire at

the lines if they got
too close, but they're

literally circling,
circling our harbour.

Just waiting eh.

But yeah, we had lions
and tasty and all

types of things going
on in, in Malawi.

Um, one of the things
that that really stood

out for me was prior to
this, you know, train in

the UK were very natal
orders and natal broke

breakdown over platoons,
but in, in Malawi,

for example, when it's
55 above and raining,

that promotes the grass
growing and the grass

is like six feet high.

So it had these open
areas called gambles

and the gamble would
be anywhere from one

to 200 meters wide,
depending, even more.

And then you have
the forest blocks.

So you might be tasked
to clear the gambles,

but you're not actually
allowed to set foot

in the gambles.

Okay.

So you have to, or about
your platoon so that.

It's on either side
of the gambles.

So now traditionally we
had the, we call it orbat

that's the organizing
your platoon, you know,

in a platoon would have
the boss or the platoon

commander with his group.

Three rifle sections
of eight guys, the

section commander and a
platoon sergeants group.

And that was like
the standard natal

format, but that didn't
necessarily work in

Malawi because you
needed to clear both

sides of the gamble.

So we would experiment
with like, maybe you have

the platoon commanders
group two sections

on the right between
Sergeant group of one

section on the left.

And you're, you're
working on far supporting

each other, but you'd
be expected to clear

the gamble without
setting foot in it.

You clearing the
woods beside it.

And if you ever
crossed, you'd fail

your appointment.

Auto-fail.

Yeah, you'd be
automatically

you failed it.

So that was really good.

That was a really
good teaching point

for me was that yeah,
you follow the natal

format, but be flexible
the way you organize

your, your group.

And this really
became apparent for

me in Afghanistan.

Um, because I mentioned
in the last podcast

that I went out and was
attached a Zula company

for five commander
as a continuity NCO.

NCO, non-commissioned
officer.

Basically the,
the British have a

really good system
where they put the

incoming organization.

They send some of the
NCO's and officers to be

on the ground and be as
continuity, the handover.

So I think I mentioned,
like I had to learn

the new 338 to teach
our sniper debts.

Right.

And then just
learn the ground.

And, um, so I had already
been on the ground and

by the time my platoon
came down, uh, this

was going to be one of
their first operations.

Okay.

For them to go out this
night into an ambush.

And the area we ran
was called garmazeer

and there was, um,
very static, robust.

Um, it was the furthest,
uh, I believe it was

south that we could
go to the Pakistan

border and they had
that one hour golden

hour for the flight.

So we weren't, it
was basically the

British weren't allowed
to advance anymore

because it'd be more
than that one hour.

So it was really dug in.

Right.

And the Taliban
would use this area

as a training area.

Sure.

They were coming across
from Pakistan and then

they would train it
10 days and they just

bypasses in the desert.

They bypass it down,
but we had this like,

four kilometre frontage.

And there was a Melman
one side called JTAC Hill

and the Hellman river
running that side and

then there was a canal on
the left side, the four

kilometres, there's an
old russian bunk house.

Okay.

And, um, we are
basically beefed it up.

The engineers built
it up to be a fighting

fortification.

So how we did our
structure down in

here as a company
level, a platoon would

man JTAC Hill and
bellaclava checkpoint

we called this area.

And half the platoon
would go to one and the

other half do the other.

So platoon Sergeant
would go one and boss

would take the other one.

And I always ended up in
bellaclava checkpoint,

which is fine.

Sure.

And we'd be there
for seven days

cycle, in a rotation.

But what was happening
was in the mornings,

the Taliban would always
come in and I call it

an ambush, but they
would do a shoot on

bellaclava every morning.

Sure.

So the company
commander wanted to

counter ambush this.

So this is going to
be one of the first

big operation for this
company, new company.

Like I said, I've already
been on down six weeks

or as it was, so I'm
pretty familiar with it.

This was going to be one
of the first operations

for the company.

And my platoon
was a little later

arriving too.

So this is that this
is their first thing.

So what was supposed to
happen was w w one of

the platoons was going
to man, the checkpoints.

Another platoon was
going to actually man,

the primary ambush site,
to ambush the Taliban.

Right.

That tries to ambush us.

Yeah.

My platoon job was the
cross the canal, which

actually was, um, the,
our field engineers

were going to put
an empty footbridge

in with our help.

We're going to put this
empty footbridge, cross

the canal, and then.

The ambush group
would go to theirs.

And, uh, we talked about
JTAC Hill was a mound

that the British made
from one of the first

Anglo Afghan Wars.

Right.

150 years ago.

Right.

And it's probably a
hundred meters high.

Well, they made a
bunch of these mounds

and there was a
couple other mounds.

Now on the other side
of the canal, one

was 300 meters away
called little brother.

Okay.

And then there was
another one that was

pretty big, probably
as big as JTAC Hill.

That was a hundred
meters high, I think

hundred meters high camp.

It was a big mound
called Taliban Hill.

Okay.

We call it Taliban Hill.

Our job was to go to
little brother and

protect the ambush
site, that was our job.

So we had, I believe
three rifle sections.

We had a right, uh,
fire support section.

So we had attachments
from, you know, we had a

couple of machine guns,
snipers, anti-tank,

all attached to this.

And I had my group
platoon sergeants group.

I believe I had
the 51 mortar.

And, uh, um, I had
a foldable stretcher

that had one of the big
guys carry in my group.

So we would be doing
the resupply and

casualty evacuation
if we needed it.

And the platoon commander
had, I believe he had

a, um, some attachments.

You had a couple
engineers, uh,

platoon signaler.

So we have this
big group, Trav.

Sure.

Right.

And then the platoon
commander sets off

leading us out.

So imagine now
I'm going to be

bringing up the rear.

I'm doing the
release point and

it's nighttime too.

I didn't, I don't know
if I mentioned that.

Nah, I was gonna ask.

11 o'clock
midnight, right?

Night vision.

And this is when Taliban
. Want to advance as

well too,is nighttime

?
No, they, they'll
probably coming in

first light-ish.

Okay.

Four.

Okay.

Right.

We just need to be in
position before four.

That's the goal, right?

4AM.

They didn't, they
didn't really move.

They like to move around
too much at night.

Okay.

Without the night vision
of thing, we did, a lot

of, most of our patrols
were done a night for us.

They have us the
advantage, right.

They did a lot of their
action, it was during

the day I found our first
light, first light, last

light during the day.

And then the hunker
down during the night.

Just like
hunting, animals.

We're all animals
I tell you ya.

So as I'm setting
off Trav, I'm,

I'm looking right.

And I'm like, Oh, there
his little brother and

we're not going there.

Oh, I see the platoon
heading off the

Taliban Hill, which
is a kilometre away.

Oh no.

And I'm like, Oh, and by
this time, like I radioed

up to the boss and.

And we just kind of adapt
the plan and we're going

to the Taliban Hill.

So we're a
kilometre away.

New plan.

Yeah.

It's like, it's kind
of like, um, I think

it's, uh, I think it
was hamburger Hill that

line, like you're in
the wrong ambush site

or maybe platoon, but
that was in my mind,

like we're in the wrong
ambush site right.

Um, but so off they
went and the engineers

were there to clear
up because I know the

Taliban in the past
had put anti-personnel

mines in the top.

And some of the
Royal Marines got

caught in that.

And so engineers
go up the clear it

and our guys go up.

So I'm down in the
bottom and I'm securing

at the base of it.

We call . It the FRV
or, uh, it's like

a release point.

Okay.

So this is the rally
point that everybody

they're going to
come back to it.

So I need to secure
that and our guys go up

for them for the night.

Sure enough, 4:00
AM, our guys, cause

you have 110 guys.

We bring them with us
because they have the,

um, the javelin site,
which is thermal imaging.

So they can actually see
the Taliban moving so

we can see them moving
into the ambush well

before the actual ambush
site, but they're coming

from a different, I
believe they were coming

from a different area.

And um, we got told
to spring our ambush

on the Taliban.

So we did, and this
happened around.

You know, firstlight
are just still

dark right there.

Just kind of moving.

And traditionally,
when you spring an

ambush, you withdraw.

Okay.

But we didn't get the
order to withdraw.

So we held in position,
I think for another hour,

I think, I think what was
happening, where we were

just, we were trying to
feel out what was going

on and maybe we can draw
more Taliban in, right.

Right.

So by the time we
got the order to

withdraw, I think
it's like 6:00 AM now.

Have we been
here a long time.

And, uh, and just prior
to the order though,

like I could tell things
were, were getting

really tense, right.

And then I had one of
my, um, one of the 51

mortar men, and then one
of the stretcher dudes,

um, doing rear security
said, Jace, Jace, there's

a couple of dudes here.

And I go, what?

He goes a couple dudes
here and I, I look back,

I basically, the grass,
this field is shoulder

height and rolled down.

I stand up and I look
and there's, I like to,

I hope they're farmers
Trav, I don't know.

Sure.

But there are 50 metres,
less than 50 metres away.

And we both look at each
other and it was like,

like, you know, like.

Like deer in headlights.

Deer in the
headlights, both ways.

And it was like, if
they had anything that

resembled a weapon.

It would have been like.

Over.

Go, but I just
thought no farmers

and we both get down.

And I think the
farm, I think they

were just nosy.

What was going on?

Maybe they're a recon
party, I don't know.

They didn't have
any weapons, but if

they had anything, I
would have been like.

Yeah.

Go time for us, right.

But so now the order
comes through withdrawal

and, um, And the platoon
starts coming down.

But prior to this,
the platoon commander

is like, Sergeant
Budd, I need you to,

uh, plan a withdrawal
route that doesn't go

the way we came, for
obvious reasons, right.

And I'm like, I, sir,
400 metre run across

the open field, get
in the canal and we go

down the canal bank,
he say, yeah, yeah.

So I remember one of
the snipers being one of

the last off, and he's
like, they're coming.

And the next thing I
know RPGs are lending

indirect around us and,
and, and they fired

the RPGs indirect fire.

Right.

Like in the air and
creating a beaten

zone, I guess.

And they actually, far
as I know, occupied a

little brother, which
we should have been at.

Where you guys were
supposed to be, yeah.

So let's just
start moving right.

Theplatoon commander
already has half, I

believe he had himself
and maybe half the

platoon with him in the
open field, moving to

the canal, we're just
going like on, on a

straight angle to it.

And then I believe they
opened fire or small

arms fire peak campfire
seven 60 fire now is

firing at us in the open.

I still have half the
platoon with me in FRV.

And the boss had
the other half

platoon with him now.

They actually made it
through the open field

and then the other
they're there across now.

And there, there was
this like a, a four

foot retaining wall at
the canal and they're,

they're putting a,
uh, fire support base

in and like, Platoon
separated dome.

Totally.

And I know that like
from our training that

the Taliban can, can
flank within 10 minutes.

I'm like, we gotta move.

We gotta get out of here.

We gotta move, move,
move at, bear in mind.

This is my platoon
first movement.

And I'm throw like,
all right, guys,

we're gonna peel.

Let's just start
doing a big peel,

fire maneuvering.

And I don't know if
they can hear me,

but nobody's moving.

And I'm like, okay.

Aye.

Y'all everybody
thow smoke and

nothing's happening.

Oh man.

But I think we're spaced
out and everywhere.

Sure.

And then, um, I'm like,
you know what, Jay,

if you get up and run.

This is my mind.

They're all
gonna follow you.

So I did, I got up and
I started doing the

400 metre run across
this open field.

Yeah.

And I, I can, I can
hear the rounds singing.

And there was a section
that was pink, like that

was out in the open there
ahead of me and Trav,

I was moving so fast.

I passed them and
I have the platoon

Sergeant radio.

Like I motored past this
section and it was just

like, nothing, no work.

And I'm like, they'll
follow me right.

We had a good fire
support base coming

in from the wall.

And I remember the like
rounds hitting the wall

as we dive over the
wall and, and right

below where the guys
are firing back right.

And, um.

Geez.

Would you believe Trav,
not a single guy got hit.

Everybody got over
the wall got in, but

the entire platoon
now is mixed up.

Right.

And they're firing back.

They're firing back
little brother.

So now we have like
that everything's gone.

And the platoon commander
is trying to get a fire

mission, but which if
our mission would be

from the desert in,
we had 105 guns in the

desert artillery support.

But, um, he, and no
fault of his own, but

he was giving the wrong
coordinates because

he meant he was mixing
up little brother and

Taliban Hill right.

Got it.

Yeah.

So he wasn't getting
the fire mission.

I'm like, boss,
we're going to move.

We gotta move.

And he's wants to get
this fire mission,

which is, which is
fair, let's surpress.

But I'm like, my concept
is they're going to get

in the canal on flait
us and we got to go.

Right.

So I like the platoons
. Go on and in terms of

the orbat and it was
basically you group

here, fire support, your
group are going to move.

You're gonna move
first, move now.

Right.

And next group,
you're next to move.

And I just grabbed the
boss and I put them

in a group and we just
started doing this big

fire maneuvering down
this canal for probably

a good kilometre, the
boys nicknamed it and

the Mogadishu mile right.

So well, it was
interesting as well

Trav, was that the Afghan
police have a checkpoint

in the ma in the middle
of the town and they have

a sanger built on the
top of their building and

they're probably 600, 700
metres away in the town.

So lesson learning here
is that we should have

had maybe an element
there to control them.

So they started
firing at us as well.

Oh man, from that,
they don't know what

they're firing at
and they have iron

sights and, you know,
they're just firing.

So we didn't know we're
actually getting where

we're taking fire from,
but we were taking fire

from both sides, the
Afghan police and, and,

uh, the Taliban in there.

And we did this, uh,
this basically fighting

withdrawal down this,
down this canal.

And I kind of be the
platoon Sergeant I

called the regroup is
where we get everybody

back together about a
hundred metres short

of the company that
was holding the empty

footbridge, right.

Cause I didn't want to
come in there looking

like a big rabble.

So I did an, I did a
regroup, uh, you know,

not really a reorg,
but a quick regroup.

Right.

We got everybody
back now into our one

section two, section
three, section boss

platoon sergeants group.

And I had the boss go
first and lead it in.

And then the
concept was we look

pretty professional
coming through.

I didn't want
this big, this big

Mogadishu mile coming
through the company

checkpoint, right.

A good team
player as well.

And then, you know,
handed it back.

Sure.

And off we go
across right?

Yeah.

So that, that was, um,
that was a lesson that

I learned from Robbie
Gilmour is that when

you do this for real,
as not going to matter

one section, two section
three section, that's

great if you can keep
that integrity, but often

it's going to fail and
it's you group do this

and you group do that.

Yeah.

And Trav, as well, not
to cut you off there.

Yeah.

I realize why we
do that two mile

run when, fuck it.

I'm like, this is who
runs down a road, like,

like an idiot with
35 pounds on and, and

in 21 minutes, right.

In full gear, I told him
it totally makes sense,

I know why we do it.

In hindsight, yeah.

Any future soldier,
current soldier, this

is why you do it.

You know, Jason,
every time I speak

with you, there's.

Always some great
stories and I always

get some greater insight
into you as a person.

And the more that,
uh, you share with

everybody else, you know,
that I really respect

what you're doing.

I mean, it, it takes a
lot to be able to sit

down and, and talk about
these stories and talk

about the transition
from military into

civilian life and sort
of the next steps.

And I think you should
write a book or you

should, uh, you should
probably get your own

podcast at some point.

You Trav, and maybe, you
know, it's interesting

you talk about this.

I was re I was listening
to a podcast on the

way over and the one
thing I really enjoy

our times together
is how much we laugh.

And one thing in the
UK that that really

stands out is the
British sense of humor.

Right.

When times are tough
they have a box of humour

and everything else.

And, and this is
podcast I was listening

to, he was talking
about mental health

during the pandemic
and how it's suffered.

And they were
talking about PTSD

and everything else.

Sure.

But one thing that they
said, you know, one of

our, our stress reflex
is one of the way we can

manage it is laughter.

Right.

And the British
are really big

for it, banter.

And you have to be
careful because too

much banter becomes
criticism and picking

on people, but.

Sure.

But that's one thing I
really appreciate with

us is that we have a
lot of fun and laughs

during these podcasts.

And I think that's
really important.

And I think you hit
on, you know, some of

the areas that I would
like to go down the

road and it might be
writing my memoirs.

A lot of people have said
that, um, and relating it

to my journey, my journey
back here, my journey

in the fire service,
my journey with my own

struggles with mental
health, um, and how the

outdoors is, has nurtured
and helped me heal.

And you know, how much
passion I have for

adventure therapy.

Right.

You know, so yeah.

You know, Trav,
like I wouldn't mind

doing a podcast down
the road that is

maybe geared towards
adventure therapy.

Who knows?

Ya know.

Well, why don't we
ask the listeners, if

anyone's listened all
the way to the end here

and they want to hear
about adventure therapy

and the journeys from
the military through

fire to civilian life
and dealing with the

struggles and mental
health, let us know.

And we'll, we'll do
that podcast, if you're

game I'm totally game.

Yeah, for sure Trav.

Okay.

More time to laughs and.

I love it.

Spend some time with ya.

Jason, thank you very
much for coming back on

The Silvercore Podcast,
I really appreciate it.

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