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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Long Game Heat It Rivalry Podcast. My name is Decon and you might notice that Sylvan isn't actually here today. It's because he's working on a very special project. So instead we have Jen from the Book Refuge, who is going to join me for a little bit of a deep dive into the third entry in the game changer series, which is Tough Gang.
Jen, this is your first time reading this book, funny enough, even though you've read quite a lot of the fan fiction for Heather Rightway. Tell me like
Jenn (00:27)
Yes.
Declan (00:29)
what did you think of this book 'cause it's quite different from the first two.
Jenn (00:34)
Yeah. Yeah. I did not know what to think. And first off, thank you so much for having me for two reasons. Number one, I was just so excited to chat with either or both of you again. I'm so excited to be here.
Declan (00:46)
Right.
Jenn (00:47)
but two, I think it would have taken me a while to get around to this. It it already has. I mean, I devoured heated rivalry and the long game. And yes, I think now we're pushing 80 fanfics I've read. When we talked last I was at 60, maybe pushing 80 now. And so
Declan (01:02)
That's insane.
Jenn (01:04)
I know, I know. all the stories that I've read. So I feel like I know Ryan and Fabian a little bit, also just from other people's reviews, because I've watched so many reviews to like fill in the gaps between what's going on. So getting invited to do this with you really, you know, gave me a kick in the tush to get into it. And I'm really glad it did because my general thoughts were that this was really fun.
And I was drawn into it right away, though I will say kind of the two main things that stick out, at least for like the first honestly hundred pages of this, is that I was mostly drawn in by the teases of other people. Just being honest. Like,
Declan (01:45)
Yeah.
Jenn (01:48)
the teases of I mean not just, you know, our main boys, but honestly teases of Wyatt and teases of just the different games that are going on.
the different
Declan (01:59)
Yeah.
Jenn (02:00)
relationships that I know about from the long game. of like, ooh, where is this at? You know, because based on my math too, this is about 14 months after the cottage, but before the epilogue, it's like two months-ish before the epilogue. Epilogue
Declan (02:15)
Yeah.
Jenn (02:15)
happens around chapter 18 in this one. So I definitely, when I was starting it, was like my ears were perked because I did listen to the audio. My ears were perked for the
names of these characters and everything. but then very quickly I just really like these characters. They're very sweet. I'm gonna say that I'm gonna say the words very sweet so many times in our time talking about it because that is just how I felt. There were no assholes in this one. There are no assholes in here. Okay? They're just lovely.
Declan (02:43)
It's Yeah, it's so true. Like they are like I've
they are just one of the cutest couples, I think, in the entire series. I think it's because
Jenn (02:52)
So sweet. Mm-mm.
Declan (02:54)
like it takes a while as well to get to their sort of romantic connection whenever they actually become physical with one another as well. There's a lot of emotional buildup throughout the entire book. I think that's what
Jenn (03:05)
Uh-huh.
Declan (03:05)
makes these two quite k unique in a sense. Is that they don't just
Jenn (03:09)
Yes, yes.
Declan (03:10)
jump onto the physical and
There is like whole themes around Ryan's sexuality and how he views sex and things like that that we will get into. obviously you've only really read Shane and Ilya's story, so what was it like jumping into this couple now?
Jenn (03:26)
And yeah,
and Game Changer, as I mentioned, I did read Game Changer. That
Declan (03:30)
I'm game changer, yeah.
Jenn (03:31)
was my first one. I but I read it three years ago. And it wasn't encouraging, as I mentioned. I didn't continue because I was like, after I read that one as a standalone on its own, I was like, okay, I've read better MMs than this at the time. I
Declan (03:45)
Yeah.
Jenn (03:46)
feel like there was almost an elevation to the type of story she was telling. I think she took on some more complex things.
Not that there weren't complex things in Heated Rivalry, but let's be real, the sex takes you through that story. It's only upon rereading and rereading Heated Rivalry that I notice all the layers in that story that through the TV show I think Jacob Tierney picked up right away and put out there. If I had just read Heated Rivalry without the background of the show, I might not have picked up on those either and maybe thought it was along the lines of Game Changer as well.
Declan (04:23)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (04:23)
and with
Tough Guy, it really is like hitting the brakes. Even though this is a shorter book, even though it feels like we take so long to get to things, it still is moving relatively quickly. Their story is definitely still a lot shorter than the 10-year epic we were just in.
Declan (04:42)
Yeah.
Jenn (04:43)
but I think she really elevates what she's taking on. though I'm very excited to talk about different types of anxiety. I know you have that as
We'll get into because they're definitely like Shane definitely has anxiety. In my opinion, it's undiagnosed and unmedicated.
Declan (04:57)
yeah.
Jenn (05:00)
and that's where Ryan I think is more mature in that, in a lot of ways. so I think she really did grow a lot in the telling of the story because though I don't like when anyone just calls heated rivalry smut because it's
In my opinion, erotic romance. That's what heated rivalry is. The sex is telling the story. I've heard you guys talk about it, I talk about it. Their sex scenes are the progression of their relationship. This is the complete opposite of that, wherein
Declan (05:32)
Yeah.
Jenn (05:33)
the characters need an emotional base on multiple levels before they can get to sexual intimacy, which is a completely different type of story. And that is that takes restraint and skill.
To tell that type of story. And I think that's why this one isn't everyone's favorite. Because if you really liked how
Declan (05:54)
Mm.
Jenn (05:56)
she told heated rivalry, besides just falling in love with Shane and Ilya, which I think we can agree everyone is, this is a big gear shift. And it takes some patience and it takes some willingness to peel back those layers.
And there are parts that are frustrating about them, just like there are about Shane and Ilya. They're frustrating too. and that takes some patience. And again, I'm glad I read this for like a book club chat because I
Declan (06:25)
Yeah.
Jenn (06:25)
read it pretty quickly in two sessions. And seeing it as a full picture from start to finish, I think, is important. Because if I had drawn this out, I could have got really annoyed with some things. Whereas I didn't because I was able to see the full picture. So anyway, how about you?
Declan (06:40)
Yeah.
I quite like this one. I think this is definitely it falls in the category of these are the good books in this series. Like Tough Guy definitely does that for me. I think her focus on character and the sort of developing of them as people. because both Fabian and Ryan have to make like slight changes to who they are as people by the end of this book to be able to accommodate one another and also accommodate the lives they actually want to have.
I also think it's kinda interesting that Ryan as a hockey player kinda doesn't like playing hockey anymore. I think that was such an interesting choice for him. because obviously we went from two absolute hockey maniacs to a guy that is being assigned a job that suits his physical build but does not suit his personality whatsoever. And that's an interesting
Jenn (07:32)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (07:33)
conflict, especially when the person that he then meets in a romantic sense doesn't like hockey either.
And has pretty legitimate reasons for not liking it. and I think you do get a lot more criticism of hockey culture in this book that I think is appropriate because the first two only really went into it on like a surface level of like homophobia. But this one is like toxic masculinity. It's how
Jenn (08:01)
Yeah.
Declan (08:03)
the violence in hockey is is portrayed and celebrated and how
so many queer people are discouraged away from sports in general as a result of that. But
Jenn (08:14)
Yeah.
Declan (08:14)
yeah, I think in general she's just talking about bigger, better things than what she did with the previous couple of books, which were very much centered around the relationships only. Whereas this one is taking
Jenn (08:25)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (08:25)
like a broader approach to different topics. I think in particular she is sort of taking the reins with themes of mental health a lot more seriously in this one. Cause I
Jenn (08:34)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Declan (08:36)
think in the previous book
There are hints of Shane maybe being a little O C D, might be a little bit
Jenn (08:42)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (08:43)
of autism in there, but it's very subtle. Now, Jacob Tierney doesn't make it subtle whenever well, he does and he doesn't.
And I think that really lends a lot more weight to this story. I think I'm more invested in Ryan as a character, less so than I am in his relationship. Does that make sense?
Jenn (09:03)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what was coming to mind while you were talking too is that in the first two books, hockey is a almost physical barrier to the relationships. As in like I don't know another way to say that, but it is like a physical barrier to them being together in some way,
Declan (09:24)
Yeah.
Jenn (09:24)
where they can't be out publicly. And for Ryan, it's like and Fabian, because of his hang ups on it, it's
more of an emotional barrier and a unhappiness in it. It's causing emotional strife for them. Truly, it wouldn't have to be a barrier for them because Ryan isn't really, really hiding his sexuality. He gets even a little more okay with it as he's with Fabian. I think actually having a partner that he wants to show off that he wants to be with makes it even easier to
To say like fuck it to that, so it's easier
to do.
Declan (10:03)
Yeah.
Jenn (10:04)
But it's bringing up emotional problems, you know, and that's just a different take on it. Whereas for Shane and Ilya, it's a like physical distance. They're always having to
Declan (10:18)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (10:18)
compete against each other. It's a the media would have something to say about it. Like, sure, Ryan might get chirped, but also he could not that he would, because he's a gentle giant, but like he could beat anyone who says mean things to him and like
When Dallas Kent wants to give lip, he's like, hey, I'm queer. Shut the fuck up, bro. Like, he doesn't even have to say that. He's like,
Declan (10:36)
Yeah, have you got a problem?
Jenn (10:39)
Do you got a problem with queer men? Because, yeah. You know, all six foot seven of me or whatever. Like, you little, you little asshat. You got a problem with this?
Declan (10:44)
As he's like looking down at him like that.
Jenn (10:52)
and so it wouldn't have to be. It's more of the emotional toll, the physical toll in his body that it's taking that is what is.
hurting like it hurts Fabian to see him with that and then that's causing arguments and stuff. So I think that's a more elevated discussion on how hockey is a problem. Because yeah, there's still hovophobia, there's still those issues existing. Those do not disappear just because Ryan doesn't have to hide it. But it's also like it doesn't have to be an issue. It's more so
It's coming up because of who these guys are and their history with hockey. So I think that is cool that in this series, when you have series like this, particularly if they are a series, you know, you and I both know this, having read a lot of MM romance, when you're having these ones where it's either a gay for you series or a coming out one, or you're hiding who you are, the relationship how they get together can become very repetitive throughout the series.
Declan (11:59)
Yeah.
Jenn (12:00)
And
I think Rachel Reed does a good job of I think they're pretty different in each one. Just from what I've heard, having not read still the other two yet, from what I know, how those two get together is very different too. So anyway, very interesting.
Declan (12:13)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. I like that
we do start off with two out characters. I think that is
Jenn (12:20)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (12:21)
it's a nice twist to the formula that's already started because like you said previously, the past two books, it's very much been a battle for people to like at all admit or come out in any sort of sense, especially for Shane, he is in denial for the outmost of his book. but
Jenn (12:38)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (12:38)
then when it comes to Ryan and Fabian
I think it's very curious that Ryan's already out. But like he's out and completely invisible. Which is that to do with the fact that he is like traditionally hyper masculine looking? That no
Jenn (12:54)
Right.
Declan (12:55)
one suspects that, which is such a big contrast to Fabian, who most people would immediately clock as being queer because of the way that he dresses
Jenn (13:02)
Right.
Declan (13:03)
and presents himself. Like there
is such
Jenn (13:05)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (13:06)
a big contrast between those two elements of those characters that I just thought was very,
Jenn (13:10)
Yeah.
Declan (13:11)
very interesting.
But I wanna talk about the way that anxiety is portrayed in this book because I get the sense that Rachel Reed might have experienced some of these things herself because it's told with so much realism and accuracy that I was sort of like taken aback whenever I first read it. I don't know what you thought.
Jenn (13:39)
Yeah. I
I haven't had this type of anxiety myself. So I will admit that's not how I've experienced it or how I've lived it. I definitely have had a more creeping type of anxiety, a more like just insecurities in things. so I mean I definitely would love to hear your experiences with it.
to share with you know the audience and and with me because for me this type of storytelling is how I like gain empathy for people who go through it because it's not the like I have more anxiety around like my well being and health and financial insecurities and things than I do like these kind of I don't know the word the
the just kind of the the innocuous things that they all stack up in your head and you're kind of like drowning in it type of things that I've read about in books. Yeah,
Declan (14:47)
Like an overwhelm?
Jenn (14:49)
yeah. Like a I mean I definitely have had panic attacks, but they're usually around very specific situations. They're not something I live with in general. and I have seen it in my father has actually kind of come to this very late in life. He very much repressed a lot of things.
It's only in about the last five years that they've now he is medicated for it and works through it and he'll have attacks of it quite severely, especially around in the wintertime when seasonal depression kicks in, he'll get that. But it's not anything that I've ever had. And in fact, you know, having a parent who has it now, I definitely have gained more empathy for it because I feel like I can get in the opinion of like the things I get anxious about.
They feel very factual to me. To me, where I'm like, I need
Declan (15:42)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (15:43)
enough money for something. I need to be able to take care of myself. I need to do those things. And when someone's anxious about a thing, well, I'm like, but it's not happening. Why are you anxious about this thing? Nothing's actually hurting you. What's going on? I I try to have like, you know, your his mind is doing that to him, right? Like my d my father's mind
Declan (16:01)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (16:01)
is doing that to him. And I want to have patience and love for it. And so reading
it through like how he gets into a spiral and like how it's done. I think it was done in a really good way where this isn't a dark romance. This wasn't a panic thing. This felt very real
Declan (16:19)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (16:20)
what he was going through. So yeah, I would I would love to hear you talk on that. Because I don't experience it in that way at all. So
Declan (16:28)
Yeah, it definitely would have been something that when I was younger I used to experience quite a bit. just from like a paranoia of how you're being observed, how you're being watched, the sort of social expectations of how you're supposed to carry out a conversation. Like, believe it or not, like I was not very social at all when I was younger. Like I just couldn't speak to people. Like I just had really
Jenn (16:51)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (16:52)
bad social skills.
And so anytime I had to have a conversation, I would be sort of like terrified before it happened. and there's like a scene in this book where he is like pre-planning the conversation he's gonna have his in his head to order his coffee. And I was like, that is the most realistic depiction of that sort of anxiety that I could possibly imagine. And I thought it was
Jenn (17:16)
Yeah.
Declan (17:17)
like a a nice like sort of segue or gateway into
sort of his day-to-day thoughts the way that he like has to live, which is constantly overthinking everything and in a state of real fight or flight. and it's
Jenn (17:33)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (17:34)
interesting that as such a big guy, obviously very intimidating for other players and literally his job is to be like a bruiser, is to be this this big bodyguard of a guy. And
Jenn (17:45)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Declan (17:48)
his instinct is not like
Jenn (17:50)
Yeah.
Declan (17:51)
fight
It's like freeze. It's like I can't be here. I don't want to be here. This is really bad. I want to leave or I don't know what to do in this situation. and I thought that was a really curious way to take that, especially given his reputation. But I also
Jenn (18:06)
Yeah.
Declan (18:07)
like that this is something that he lives with every day and that he has managed now free medication. He goes to therapy, he is working through this. but it's sad also that
the inciting incident for him to finally seek out help was a very public mental breakdown, which
Jenn (18:27)
Right. Right.
Declan (18:29)
I think is very, very it's sad for him, but also it paints the idea that this can happen to anybody. So it could like professional
Jenn (18:40)
Yeah.
Declan (18:40)
players, doctors, nurses, like anyone you can imagine your life can have moments like this that they cannot control.
the sort of onset of panic and anxiety that that takes them. And I like that that's sort of the inside moment for him to go then and seek help and to seek medication and to try to manage those symptoms. But you really do feel sorry for Ryan in this book because
he
Jenn (19:04)
Yeah.
Declan (19:04)
holds back so much of who he is in himself and he's such a lovely kind guy that he seems to rely very heavily on this intimidating presence to, you know, keep him safe from
his fears or presenting his fears to the public in the way that it happened before, which I imagine was very,
Jenn (19:23)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (19:24)
very embarrassing for him.
Jenn (19:26)
Yeah. Yeah. I love hearing that. So I made kind of a an an observation, like I said, as on the outside of it, in kind of a comparison game too, because I agree the the very public incident is so awful. And I do wonder what percentage of that was him being p forced to have therapy, forced to get that help if he wanted to keep.
His job. I think they reference it a little bit, but it's it was a good thing. It it also is proving that like how much longer was he gonna suffer without a little bit of relief, right? Because who knows? We're seeing his head after he has medication and after he has therapy. What was he like before? That would be an interesting contract. But I made this note too here, based off your question. I said
I feel like Ryan is more at home with his anxiety, if that makes sense. he's already had this breakdown. He has a therapist, he's on medication, he isn't trying to run from it, he's figuring out ways to live with it. I don't think at the start he's fully come to terms with how hockey isn't conducive or healthy yet. He's just starting to get into that and we'll talk about it more.
Declan (20:45)
Yes.
Jenn (20:46)
But in contrast, because we can't help but make this comparison, like I said.
To someone like Shane, who is push, push, pushing it down right now. He controls, he ignores. And really, his only form of acting out is his vice with Ilya, which is what I would call it for a good portion of their relationship. Is like he controls everything else, but for his, you know, breakout moments with Ilya. That's
Declan (21:12)
Yeah.
Jenn (21:13)
his only real vice, right? And I think we see that too in the fact that he
sees it as very shameful whenever he gives in to spending time with Ilya. I think that's more than just like internalized homophobia. I think it's also like the one place he gives up control to. and I think that's why when we get, you know, when we see Shane later in his life too and no and his relationship with Ilya is no longer his vice, we see him even getting tighter and tighter in other parts of him now because his relationship with Ilya is
Declan (21:41)
Yes.
Jenn (21:43)
no longer the release valve that it was.
He has to be intentional and kind with how he's spending time with Ilya. It can't just be that. Anyway, sorry, jumping ahead. But my point is, back to Ryan here is that he's in the process of realizing that he doesn't fit with hockey. And it isn't until he meets with Fabian again, you know, discussions with Wyatt as well. I know we kind of jumped this, but one of my favorite characters in this one is Wyatt. I think he's such a great friend. who helps, you know, helps him chill out a little bit.
Declan (22:14)
Yeah.
Jenn (22:15)
that that doesn't have the tension of like a sexual expectation, which in the beginning with Fabian, it's kind of like, well, I need Fabian to know that there can't be anything with me or something like that because there's so much pressure there. and then eventually to the volunteering with the kids and being asked to the hockey camps later at the end of it. Yeah which gives him the opening that like there's something other than hockey that you can be good at. So
I think we're seeing him in the beginning of this book that if he hadn't run into Fabian again, I think it could have taken a serious injury to get him out of hockey instead of him getting to do it for a positive reason. and that's kind of how I see the arc of his anxiety in this book as an observer of not like having the same anxiety journey myself, maybe.
Declan (23:07)
It's also a good way of showing, as well, that if you don't have adequate support or a support system around you, your anxiety can grow to much higher levels, and you'll find yourself
Jenn (23:17)
Yeah.
Declan (23:17)
sitting in it longer than you perhaps need to. I think
Jenn (23:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Declan (23:21)
the fact that Ryan's only real new friend that he's made in so many years is now Wyatt. And Wyatt kicks him out of his comfort zone. He but he's there with him when he's doing it. He is making
Jenn (23:31)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Declan (23:35)
the effort, he knows that Ryan.
seems to be a good guy, but he's a little shy
Jenn (23:39)
Yeah.
Declan (23:39)
or he's a little anxious. And so he makes a really strong effort in this book to include Ryan
Jenn (23:45)
Yeah.
Declan (23:45)
and to be part of Ryan's life and to give him someone to be himself around. and obviously Fabian
Jenn (23:52)
Yeah.
Declan (23:52)
is playing that role too. Now, the issue with Fabian though is that sometimes he just makes it a bit about him. And it's not really it's
Jenn (23:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Declan (24:01)
kind of not the moment, not the time. And so he doesn't quite get the same
No strings attached support that he does whenever he's with Wyatt. And I I like that that connection's formed in this.
Jenn (24:13)
Yeah. I think I've found the character in the series that I'm the most like. And it's Wyatt. I think I'm the most like Wyatt. I think I'm that that straight person who fits in with the queers the most of everyone. I think I'm a Wyatt who's like, Yeah, I'll help you build your furniture. Just feed me. That's totally
Declan (24:25)
Yeah.
Jenn (24:29)
me. I literally just did that last weekend for my friends who are moving in. I was like, I'll help you
Declan (24:31)
Yeah.
Jenn (24:33)
put stuff away. You just bring the pizza and I'll help you put together your furniture. but also with the like
you're gone. I'm inviting myself over. That's also me. Like I said, I'm very extroverted. So I
Declan (24:43)
Yeah.
Jenn (24:46)
I think that well we don't bring up, but lockdown really, really took a lot of that out of me. Cause I used to invite myself over to my introverted friends' houses all the time. Cause I was like, you'll never invite me over
Declan (24:56)
Yeah.
Jenn (24:56)
to hang out because you're too shy, but I know you want me to come over and hang out. So I'm just showing up with beer and coming, yeah, I know. I'm like, let me in. We're gonna play a game
Declan (25:00)
By the a matter tour.
Jenn (25:06)
and like you're gonna have a great time. And then when I leave, you'll be like, I'm glad she came over.
So I think I'm Wyatt probably because I'm not
Declan (25:13)
Yeah.
Jenn (25:13)
quite as much of an asshole as Rosanoff. So I'm I'm probably more of a why. But anyway,
Declan (25:16)
Yeah.
Jenn (25:17)
side side note. he's one of my faves. But yes, Fabian, Fabian. what a sweet man. But also, yes, I like the point. He he has a journey to do too. And I think that, yeah. Should we get into some of that? Should we get into some of that? Or
Declan (25:33)
Yes, 'cause
Fabian I think is one of the most interesting characters in the entire series because he is like
Jenn (25:40)
Yeah.
Declan (25:40)
the antithesis of the majority of the players. He is unapologetically queer. He is feminine and androgynous in the way that he presents himself. And he is not this athlete. He is an artist. He is someone who
Jenn (25:54)
Yeah.
Declan (25:56)
is at home, completely removed from that world.
white still maintaining comfort in who he is and the way that he lives his life. Compared
Jenn (26:07)
Yeah.
Declan (26:07)
to all these other repressed, hyper
Jenn (26:10)
Yeah.
Declan (26:11)
masculine guys that just can't struggle to
Jenn (26:13)
Do you think sorry?
Declan (26:15)
function.
Jenn (26:16)
Inter interruption. Sorry there. Do you think
Declan (26:18)
Yeah.
Jenn (26:18)
that Fabian is kind of what she was wanting to do with Kip, which she was too afraid to go too feminine with Kip to start with? Because
Declan (26:25)
I I think so. I do think so.
Jenn (26:27)
Kip Kip is still so sweet. I love love sweet Kip. But also Robbie has taken over what Kip looks like in my mind. And we all know the Kip from Game Changer is still a bit more like a bit more of a player than the one we see in the show. He's a bit more
you know, if you're not paying
Declan (26:44)
Yeah.
Jenn (26:44)
attention to me, I'm likely to go sleep with someone else while you're gone for a little bit. and that's not who the kid on the show is. let's be honest. Let's be honest.
Declan (26:55)
bit more cute meat
or me cute in the T V show so it is
it's not quite as grey.
Jenn (26:59)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. so I honestly that's kind of what I was getting is I was like, I I feel like she made Kip still like so sp like more sporty and game changer. But yet he doesn't play sports, but he's sporty, but still an art major and stuff in that. so anyway. Yeah, but maybe she wasn't ready yet, you know. So
Declan (27:21)
Yeah. There was a missed opportunity, yeah. I think like it's mm
I think also I think a lot of MM romance readers have this like obsession with like seeing two big burly men together instead of like any sort of representation of more like femme men, femme gay men. like
Jenn (27:43)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Declan (27:48)
They're actually still quite uncommon in most romance books, I find. like if
Jenn (27:52)
Yes.
Declan (27:53)
I was to give you a ratio of like very masculine, both characters being very masculine, it's like eighty to twenty. Even though
Jenn (28:00)
Yeah. And it's not women
writing them. Very rare even more rare is the women riding a morphem gay man. It's usually men who will do it. Yeah.
Declan (28:06)
Yeah, yeah.
I yeah, I actually do find that to be true as well. I do find that queer men writing are more likely to make more
Jenn (28:16)
Yeah.
Declan (28:17)
queer presenting characters.
Jenn (28:19)
Well, anyway, I I can't fully speak on that, but part a good part of it is I feel like women are worried about the fetishization of that of like miss doing that. But at any time women writing gay men are gonna get accused of that anyway, even though there aren't enough men actually writing a mem romance anyway, as you've talked about, I've talked about we know if you wanna write it, write it, guys. Go write them then. And they're some of my favorites.
Declan (28:40)
I've made that argument before. Like guys if we got a problem, if you want it, go write them. Go write them exactly.
Jenn (28:49)
There's some of my favorites, but not enough of you are writing them. So then I end up reading women doing it. But anyway, but yeah.
Declan (28:53)
Yeah. I mean I use
the examples of Tal Bauer and T J Cloden, two
Jenn (28:59)
hi baby.
Declan (28:59)
of the best romance writers out there. my god, if you haven't read any of their books, I highly recommend that you do. If
Jenn (29:06)
I told you.
Declan (29:06)
you need a male writer for a different perspective or you want to support male writers, then start with those two. They are incredible.
Jenn (29:14)
You everyone,
you and me by Tal Bowers in my top ten books of all time. It is fantastic.
Declan (29:21)
I have
not read that book yet.
Jenn (29:26)
Shut up That's right, you told me that before because I've talked about before Declan.
Declan (29:30)
It's like
I have like a list of long books that I I am making my way through. It is on there. I just haven't got the time yet to to commit to it.
Jenn (29:42)
I'm giving you
I'm giving you my evil eye right now because that is a sin. That's a sin actually right now. But anyway, anyway.
Declan (29:50)
I know, I know.
Jenn (29:52)
I'm rereading enemies of the state for one of my for my Patreon right now. So I but I love Talbot. Yeah, I've read the I read the first three about but anyway, side track.
Declan (29:55)
I love that. Enemies of State is really, really good. Yeah. my god, we we completely got off topic.
Jenn (30:06)
But anyway, the feminization or or Fabian being feminine.
we don't see enough
Declan (30:10)
Yes.
Jenn (30:11)
of that. And yeah, I well, so my note on this, because yes, I wrote that I really liked how comfortable he was in himself. I liked how he dressed, I liked that he wore makeup. I love that we get scenes where he's wearing lingerie. I like that there was toys being used that he was testing out for his friend. Love all this stuff. I think
Declan (30:28)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (30:28)
that toys need to be shown more in male male romance, and they're not. Anyway, just me saying that. maybe part of this I made a note though was that the male narrator doing this.
Has a really masculine voice too. So I wasn't like overly feminizing him, even though I know that's how he is written. I still was just like, well, this is just Fabian. Like, he's great. I love him. and I just, he was just great. Like, he as a character was just fun. And so those those elements don't bother me. And so I don't know. Again, I look forward to your thoughts on this. I think that sometimes.
And this is where I mean, I think sometimes when authors, whether a male or female author, chooses to write a more femme gay character, they go over the top and it feels like you're reading a caricature instead of how they would still act. Because even a femme gay man, he's still a man, if that's how they are.
Declan (31:27)
Yeah.
Jenn (31:27)
And they're not every part of them isn't just, I've just made you a woman, but he has a dick so that this can be MM, right? And that's where I
Declan (31:34)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (31:35)
think it can get like
Okay, but you're not writing a a a trans woman. You are writing a gay man and those are different. Like they're they're very different and both
Declan (31:44)
Yeah.
Jenn (31:45)
stories exist and are important. But if you're writing a femme gay man, I think those have often been just lost in some stories lately. just my opinion, not trying to be controversial. I just think that
Declan (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (31:57)
they get mushed at please don't crucify me everyone. I truly I just think it's important that all be represented and femme gay men in MM romance are
Very important too. So
Declan (32:08)
Yeah. I I do think there is like a trip to that. I think there is a lot of you could say hesitancy around writing more feminine gay men into books because they are afraid of making them into a caricature. which is fair because if you look at media throughout the years before sort of the push for equal right to marriage and
Jenn (32:35)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (32:36)
you know, more normalization of queer representation TV shows and books and films. the gay people that you would have seen on TV, like they were typically like a caricature of a gay person. Like they were very presented
Jenn (32:51)
Yeah.
Declan (32:51)
in this one type of way. and they were typically like they have to be comedians or they have to be the body of the joke or they have to be the one that's the sassy one to come in and
behave in a certain way,
Jenn (33:03)
Sure.
Declan (33:03)
make everyone laugh, and that was the acceptable way of having like a gay person in your media. And so
Jenn (33:08)
Right.
Declan (33:09)
I think there might be a bit of an overcompensation for that now, to just present them as like masculine men who just happen to have sex with other men. and I think then a large portion of the queer community doesn't get presented at all in that sense then. So I am glad that Rachel Lee did choose to p take this book and to introduce a more
feminine presenting
Jenn (33:33)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (33:34)
character because if this was all just hockey guys and they're equally hockey ish behaving boyfriends, I don't think it would be as interesting and I don't think it would be a good sort of representation of, you know, the variety of queer relationships and the
Jenn (33:52)
Sure.
Declan (33:53)
way in which like I know a lot of like masculine gay men who like only want to date like very feminine presenting men.
It's
Jenn (34:03)
Right.
Declan (34:04)
I think it's just a very it's a good time in the series, I think, to show a different perspective, show a different type of gay person and not just
Jenn (34:16)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (34:16)
this hyper macho masculine version that we've gotten for the past two books.
Jenn (34:23)
Right, right. Well and is this and again I haven't read these yet, so but isn't like so I think she kind of will have representation for kind of each area, right? Like is Kyle written more as like a twink, am I correct? And then we also have that Har
Declan (34:38)
Yeah.
Jenn (34:39)
Harris is supposed to be a little more like a plus size body type. Is that correct? Like am
I right in that?
Declan (34:44)
That's true, yeah. So
the following sort of
Jenn (34:48)
I haven't read those
yet, so no.
Declan (34:51)
Well we'll get around to those as well. but you are you
Jenn (34:55)
Yeah.
Declan (34:56)
are right. They do take the opportun well, she takes the opportunity now to introduce just like different versions of gay people that are not just athlete super hot jock. And one of them is Kyle. Kyle is definitely he's a lot more he would be a twink. That's sort of the way that he's described. this
Jenn (35:16)
Okay.
Declan (35:16)
artsy, very sex positive person.
and then you have Harris then from the fifth book. and he is like yes, you get the idea that he is not the ideal body type or whatever anyone wants to say.
Jenn (35:30)
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Declan (35:34)
but he is also incredibly sweet, very honest,
Jenn (35:37)
yeah.
Declan (35:37)
and just an incredibly down to earth person and and funny enough, just not a personality that we've seen in this book so far or in this series so far.
Jenn (35:45)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Declan (35:47)
And
so yeah, she does definitely get encouraged to have a bit more variety in her partners throughout the rest of these books. I wonder if that's also why none of the partners going forward are also hockey players?
Jenn (35:59)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (36:01)
Because obviously Shane and Elliot
filled that category, so I don't think there's a need to to add in another that's basically the same.
Jenn (36:05)
Yeah. Well, and
and they're like so and they just take up so much of the air in the room. Like, let's be honest. Like any mention of them just takes up so much space. And if you have another couple that was both playing hockey, they would just be compared to them. Like there's already enough comparison going on. And
Declan (36:30)
Yeah.
Jenn (36:31)
if you have another couple that's also
On the DL in the NHL.
Declan (36:39)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (36:40)
they would just be getting compared to them, right? So I think having there be different comparisons of like, you know, we have Ryan who's getting out of it and he's gonna be doing whatever. And we have Eric who I think he's retiring to, right? Or will, I don't know. I've not trying to jump ahead of everybody, but I'm like, we have them as hockey where they're either like
Older in it and they're out, or they, you know, will be out, but their partner isn't. And none of them are gonna have as much scrutiny as Shane and Ilya either, just because of the like
Declan (37:13)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (37:14)
we're alone at the top type of thing. so I just think it's really smart, and I think she enjoys showing different aspects of it too, because of just how much she loves how you know, and I really love we didn't even mention this. Like, this book is dedicated to her husband too.
Where she says, like, my husband hates hockey. And this book, she says, like, this is dedicated
Declan (37:35)
Yeah.
Jenn (37:36)
to my husband, even though you hate hockey. And the first line of chapter one, not of the prologue but of the epilogue, says Fabian Salah hated hockey. You know, and I was like,
Declan (37:43)
Mm. Yeah.
Jenn (37:46)
that's definitely to her husband. So I like that she, you know, gets to show all of those aspects of it and what it's like to, you know, what it'd be like dating one of the top people in the NHL to someone who gets traded every single year.
like the reality
Declan (38:00)
Yeah.
Jenn (38:01)
of that and like there's just so many different aspects to that. and another note about his femininity before we move on from that is that what still felt kind of masculine about Fabian to me is his confidence in
This is how I'm presenting myself. And I think that's something that he had to go through so much shit to get to it, that he
Declan (38:26)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (38:27)
still has that backbone now where he's like, I've surrounded myself with the people, I've made it through this, I've put myself in places where I feel safe so that I don't have to deal with this icky part of it. And that's a choice that a healthy adult can make. Because yes,
Declan (38:45)
Yeah.
Jenn (38:46)
there
Is always gonna be people who don't like you who are going to be against you, whether it's really like dangerous kind of hate or just hate that's bad for your mental health, right? Like there's certain privileges we can all have, but there's still always depression that people can have too. And you can choose to put yourself in the healthiest place for you. And I think that is one of the strengths of Fabian and what is able to make him feel, you know, so.
strong and be able like he's a touring musician at by the end of this. Like he's so badass. And I think that's what makes him this like almost like femme slash androgynous slash like what makes him so attractive to Ryan because that's what Ryan is seeing that like he lacks, that he's this burly, tough, strong person and inside he is like just a ball of like, I don't feel put together at all.
And I love that. So
Declan (39:46)
I like the way that the two of them do mirror each other in a sense. Like Fabian has
Jenn (39:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Declan (39:51)
everything that Ryan wants. Like he wants his confidence,
Jenn (39:53)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (39:54)
he wants his surety, his confidence in his sexuality, his ability to just sort of walk into a room and deal with any situation and the absolute certainty he has in the career that he's chosen and in his passions.
Jenn (40:09)
Yep. Friend group.
Declan (40:12)
Brent Group, like the whole
experience of Fabian is incredibly attractive to Ryan. And I
Jenn (40:18)
Yeah.
Declan (40:19)
think that's so curious because they couldn't be more opposite. Like where
Jenn (40:22)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (40:23)
Fabian is confident, Ryan is anxious. Where Ryan is huge, Fabian is small and described as like more petite. And I like that she has drawn that comparison between the two because they each have something to offer. I think Fabian does have his flaws though.
I think he can be a bit of a drama queen. I think he can make situations about him. Yeah, let's talk about some of these. I honestly
Jenn (40:46)
Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about some of
Declan (40:51)
throughout this book there was not a moment where I was like annoyed with Ryan because I could fully understand Ryan and appreciate
Jenn (40:59)
Yeah.
Declan (40:59)
what he's going through. I can understand that he was in denial about his career and what he wanted to do. and
Jenn (41:05)
yeah.
Declan (41:06)
that he was just someone who was stuck between a crossroads of I
don't want to keep doing this. I used to like this. It's
Jenn (41:14)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (41:15)
just not working for me and it's so unhealthy for him. And I could fully understand him. Nim Fabian, his problems seem to be that he sort of lacks impulse control and he
Jenn (41:28)
Yes, mm-hmm.
Declan (41:30)
struggles to regulate his emotions in a different way from Ryan. to the point where he will get like very upset over a perceived slight or like
A perceived thing about Ryan, and he will sometimes make Ryan's problems about himself when they're not what they really do with him. Like there'll be a situation where Ryan is literally unable to to walk away from hockey right now. It's just it doesn't work for him at that
Jenn (42:00)
Yes.
Declan (42:01)
moment in time. He knows that there's a problem, he knows that there's an issue, and he is trying his best to sort of work through it, but then Fabian is just
Making that really already very anxious situation for Ryan worse by withdrawing
Jenn (42:13)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Declan (42:15)
his support and being like, I can't, I don't think I can deal with this. This is too much for me. This is too much. I'm like, Well, how do think he feels?
Jenn (42:22)
Yes.
Declan (42:23)
Like you're not helping Ryan in this moment in time. You are probably increasing
Jenn (42:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (42:27)
his anxieties. And at those moments I was getting annoyed with Fabian. I was like, You need to really check yourself and stop making this about you.
And there's a certain element of self awareness that he does have where he is like, I know I am making it about me. I'm like, Okay, then stop making it about you then. If you know you're doing it, then stop.
Jenn (42:45)
Yeah, yeah.
Declan (42:47)
And so there were elements and times when I was getting annoyed with Fabian. I don't know if you were having the same experience.
Jenn (42:53)
Yes. No, you you put it into words. Cause I mean, I was definitely going to agree and say with the like their opposites in Ryan as you mentioned about like the coffee order earlier in our discussion about how he's literally like, well if they don't have what I want or like this could be embarrassing or like, I'm afraid of this or whatever. Ryan would never have like like he thinks about it like ten times before he goes to the show for fabying. He's like, and he's not gonna wanna talk to me and
I'm just like I'm gonna make it awkward. Like whereas like sometimes Fabian's like impulse control is great because it helps make Ryan feel comfortable. Where Ryan would be like, I really stepped in it. I'm so embarrassing, or I'm just big and ugly. And Fabian's like, my gosh, you're here, you can just see me. And like just makes him feel so welcome. And so sometimes it's so nice at the beginning of their relationship.
And those things where he's like, well yeah, just come in and sit down and and and talk with me and like I don't care. Like
Declan (43:50)
Yeah.
Jenn (43:51)
he doesn't have any you know, and like I said, as someone who's an extrovert, I really appreciate those parts of it. But and this is something with age too, is like my extroversion. I also have like, you know, you're tempered a little bit as you get you get older. And the thing is is that based on like they're the same age, I think they're t they're t twenty nine, right? Is about what they are in here.
Declan (44:12)
Yeah, I think so.
Jenn (44:13)
Because I think they're the same age when he was there. So they're like 29, 30, whatever they are. There are some parts of Fabian where I'm like, you should be doing a bit better with this. And one of the
Declan (44:24)
Yeah.
Jenn (44:24)
things, we kind of skip this. I don't think his friend group always helps with that. I really love Fabian's friends. Okay, I do. I do. He has some great friends, just like Rachel Reed always packs. Like one of them always has the best of friends. Like, let's be honest. But there's
Declan (44:38)
Yeah.
Jenn (44:40)
some parts of his friend group. Like I think his friends, they give great advice about Claude.
Okay. Love the advice I give about Claude whether like this person's
Declan (44:46)
Yeah.
Jenn (44:46)
toxic. And I even love some of the discussions about them being like, hey, maybe could you think about this from Ryan's perspective? Like we like that. But then there's other parts of their friends where I'm like, okay.
If you guys have thought through and realized that Ryan has anxiety, could you not embarrass him all the time? Like it's one thing to be
Declan (45:03)
Mm.
Jenn (45:04)
cute about like toys or whatever in front of someone, but could you not embarrass someone with anxiety at every opportunity you get? Like, sorry, I was getting annoyed with them, and maybe that's just me. But I'm like, I know this is cute with you guys. This is great, but like, can we chill just a little bit? Like, sorry. I know.
Declan (45:20)
Yeah, like give a little bit of breathing space.
Jenn (45:24)
Like maybe the third or fourth hangout. Now you can bring out the sex toys in front of Ryan, okay, fine. But give the guy a second. The guy was performance anxiety and they're like whipping out the dildos in front of him. I was like, gosh. I know this is funny.
Declan (45:38)
God, here we go.
Jenn (45:40)
But I also was like, just give Ryan a break. Cause it was also embarrassing Fabian in front of him too, which anyway, sorry. Again, I love his friends, but there was some parts where I was like, Are you just purposely like I don't know s
Declan (45:51)
Yeah, it's like pulled together.
Jenn (45:53)
So like she does great with friends. But anyway, where was I going with this? so yeah, there would be times with it where I'm like, this is a thing where like Ryan and you need to talk this through. And I know Ryan wants to talk things through over and over and over again because of his anxiety, but maybe you could give him time to talk it through with you, talk to his therapist at least once before you're demanding
Declan (46:17)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (46:18)
he like make decisions that will affect his entire future.
And then like, yeah, like he has one injury and you're like, You gotta quit. It's horrible for you. Where I'm like, I know it hurts to see your partner hurt. I absolutely understand.
Declan (46:32)
Yeah.
Jenn (46:34)
But if you like pulled a muscle playing your violin, would you expect him to tell you you gotta give up playing? Or if you couldn't come up with a lyric that you needed this day, would you expect your partner to say, you can't write songs anymore? You're awful at it. You can't come up with what you need.
Declan (46:49)
Yeah.
Jenn (46:50)
Like I know they're very different and hockey has high stakes. I also think Ryan should stop playing hockey because it's not great for him. But you literally broke up with him, a man who's like very anxious and trusted you with all his secrets. And you just were like, if you can't give up hockey right now, like we're done. And that was hard. Like I don't have problems with the third act breakup when it makes sense. Like I don't. I just have problems with that how Fabian like did that.
to Ryan and his reasons for doing it. That was a issue for me.
Declan (47:20)
And yeah, and his friend
his friend calls him out for it as well and is like, Why would you break
Jenn (47:26)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (47:27)
up with him over this? Like you're expecting him to just like dump
Jenn (47:30)
Thank you.
Declan (47:30)
his career and do this and I was like, my god, thank God. my god, voice of reason. Someone is finally coming in
Jenn (47:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (47:37)
and putting him in his place because he was just getting so like this is all about me and this is what I want and what I need and I'm
Jenn (47:46)
Yeah.
Declan (47:47)
not compromising 'cause you need to compromise for me and
I can't watch you do this to yourself, like ugh. And then accusing him of being addicted to prescription medication. I was like, whoa. It's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He hit he is serious he is badly
Jenn (47:59)
Yes. I forgot. I forgot about that.
Declan (48:04)
injured. He is doing physiotherapy. He is like, why why are you accusing him of being addicted to opioids? Like it was so Yeah.
Jenn (48:12)
That which is already a huge fear, which is
already a huge fear because and then that other guy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, where he has to go to a funeral
Declan (48:21)
Bunkers.
Jenn (48:22)
alone because you've broken up with him, and he has to run into which I mean, of course, he's happy to run into Ilya at a funeral, great, love it. But no, you're totally right. So
Declan (48:30)
Yeah, although you know.
Jenn (48:34)
the other thing to mention too is that I like how they both had journeys they needed to have, but one thing I think was missing.
Not to critique her wonderfulness, but I think we needed a scene where Fabian talked through his issues with his parents a little bit. That is what would have showed full
Declan (48:51)
Yeah.
Jenn (48:52)
growth. Where was our scene where he's like, you know, maybe his sister, because his sister, right, who's pregnant and married.
Where was a scene where he's like, Yeah, I made it back because I wanted to see and they're like, we haven't seen you at holidays. And he's Yeah, it's cause it's tough for me to be here. Like, why can't there just be like
Declan (49:08)
Yeah.
Jenn (49:08)
four lines back and forth with his family about
Declan (49:12)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (49:12)
why he doesn't show up for stuff? Like, where was that? That
Declan (49:16)
Yeah.
Jenn (49:16)
would have shown the growth for Fabian I wanted to see, besides him
Declan (49:20)
I think
Jenn (49:20)
just being like, I need to talk to Ryan anyway.
Declan (49:23)
It was it was definitely a lost spread. I feel like she she set it up initially as like character backstory for Fabian to explain his dislike for hockey. But then not
Jenn (49:33)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (49:33)
going then taking the opportunity to address it, it does feel like a missed opportunity. that's the best way I would sort of view it as a criticism. And it would have been so interesting to have that moment of
Jenn (49:45)
Right.
Declan (49:45)
like catharsis where it's like you prioritize hockey over everything, you prioritize it over me.
You make me feel uncomfortable in my own home. Like do you not realize what you've done to to me in general? Like our relationship, like I'm not here all the time because like you make me feel crap about myself when I'm here. Like you you don't want to hear about me. And the funny thing is he's so talented
Jenn (50:10)
And they
right, right. Sorry, I I did just forget something as I have said that too. Like his parents are the ones who like accuse maybe that Ryan could be addicted to something. So maybe that's why he doesn't try to bring up anything. Because isn't it at the table that the parents are the ones saying, like, he's a who do they say is violent at the table? Isn't that at the holiday table that his parents like say something?
Declan (50:34)
He Yeah, yes. Yeah, they they make the
they imply that Ryan might be a little weird or a bit off or a bit a bit crazy. because obviously Ryan had that
Jenn (50:40)
Yeah. So maybe that's why. Maybe that was supposed to be that, you know. But he should have confronted him then.
Declan (50:47)
Yeah, yeah, of course. It's funny, Fabian has all the confidence in the world whenever it comes to confronting Ryan, but when it comes to confronting people who genuinely deserve it, all of a sudden he's very meek
Jenn (50:53)
Exactly. Yeah.
Declan (50:57)
and he doesn't want to w doesn't want to have to do it. But
Jenn (50:59)
Right, right.
That's why yeah. Anyway, continue, sorry.
Declan (51:02)
Yeah, well we'll we'll try not to run too far into the the Fabian hate train 'cause I do actually quite like his character. But the their
Jenn (51:07)
I know, I know. Well, and I
I I love him, but but but the thing is why I have that is it's the same that I have for like there needed to be that close of that arc because he is such a good character.
Declan (51:19)
Mm.
Jenn (51:19)
He's so good for Ryan. And you know, maybe we when we tap in especially to Ryan's like sexual struggles, Fabian's a star with that stuff. That's wonderful.
Declan (51:29)
Yeah,
that's
Jenn (51:30)
But their emotional
part of their relationship, because that's what even makes Ryan feel comfortable enough to have sex, is how great Fabian is in that regard.
Declan (51:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (51:39)
But then it's the like they just needed to close that loop to show that Fabian had to learn something too. Cause this isn't just Ryan who had to grow. But I think in the same way that Rachel Reed kind of has, you know, we talk about this of like.
He did rivalry is is like Shane's journey and the long game is like Ilya's journey. And maybe this one was supposed to be Ryan's journey and there wasn't enough done with Fabian, but there should have been, 'cause he's great. So
Declan (52:06)
Yeah, I think it's almost a case of like picking the wrong thing to focus on in terms of like
Jenn (52:13)
Mm.
Declan (52:14)
where are we taking Fabian's character development. I think what she chooses to do is to make it about like his almost selfishness, his like self obsessiveness
and his and his a little
Jenn (52:27)
Sure, sure.
Declan (52:29)
bit of ego maybe where he is not being entirely considerate of Ryan and he's not being able to see from
his perspective, he's making everything very much about him. but
Jenn (52:39)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (52:39)
the way that that's ends up resolved is just Vivian apologizing. which feels a bit okay, I suppose. Like suppose we've wrapped that up a little bit. Whereas the inability to confront his parents, his hang ups about hockey and having issues with hockey,
Jenn (52:58)
Yeah.
Declan (52:58)
I would have loved for him to have that confrontation with his parents and following that confrontation
Coming to accept his dislike of Hockey and setting it aside to be with Ryan and make that the conflict. and have it resolved in that sense then he
Jenn (53:12)
Right. Because Ryan changes everything.
Declan (53:15)
changes everything. Fabio didn't change at all.
Jenn (53:17)
This is exactly one, you know. This is the same, this is the same level of the star of Boston willing to move to Ottawa. This is the same situation where it's like Ryan's like, you know what? I do hate it. I'm leaving. And Fabian's like, are you sure? And I'm gonna travel with you while you see to your dream, you know?
Declan (53:35)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (53:36)
so it really feels like Ryan gives up at all. and I'm not saying it's bad because I think he'll be much happier and it's much healthier for him. I just mean
Fabian is like, no, you should keep doing it And Ryan's like, Just kidding, I'm giving up everything for you. Let's go. Like it's kinda what it feels like. Which is okay, but
Declan (53:52)
Yeah,
it does seem like he comes to the conclusion not just
I suppose there are more layers to it that she's added on that it's not just
Jenn (54:05)
Yeah.
Declan (54:05)
about his health. It's not just about not liking it anymore. It's not just about wanting to pursue something different. it's also about
Jenn (54:12)
Yeah.
Declan (54:12)
wanting to have this relationship. And I I really don't like when characters give ultimatums to each other. I don't like it in real life either. And that really did
Jenn (54:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (54:20)
feel like that's what Fabian did, and it obviously had a strong
Jenn (54:24)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (54:24)
influence on the decision that Ryan then made. Whereas if Fabian never gave him that ultimatum and instead
He was like, I've accepted the fact that you're a hockey player, I'm gonna support you no matter what. and we'll we'll get through this. And then Ryan can make the decision to go, actually I'm actually quitting, so you don't need to do that anyway. And I'm going to
Jenn (54:45)
Right.
Declan (54:46)
I'm gonna figure out what I want to do in my life and I wish they had it developed a bit more into the idea of the coaching and maybe had that become a bigger element of it and then that becomes like Ryan's new thing. But it feels like I could I could have an R book of Ryan and Fabian, I think. I could
definitely have
Jenn (55:00)
Yeah.
Declan (55:01)
a a part two if Rachel Reed would be interested in that. because I would like to see where their relationship follows after this. And obviously they do show up again in other people's books and they're in the long game too. But I think I
Jenn (55:13)
Yeah.
Declan (55:14)
would like to see where that relationship develops often too.
Jenn (55:17)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we just don't get like enough of them, especially since Ryan leaves hockey. We're only gonna see him at like the camps and stuff until he ends up somewhere like you know, it'd be really cool if he was like doing like a youth hockey like like program or like a I don't know, like at a high school or at a whatever. I think he could be good there and helping kids at a younger age where there's no fighting.
Where there's none of that stuff going on at all and
Declan (55:49)
Yeah.
Jenn (55:49)
helping them at a young age. I think he'd be really great. He's so patient. He's so kind. And I wish that that was his takeaway from helping Wyatt, not just that he's then willing to help like
Declan (56:01)
Yeah.
Jenn (56:01)
at the game changer camps. I wish his takeaway was more like, I should do this full time. so
Declan (56:09)
Yeah. I should lean into
the parts of me that are the kinder, more
Jenn (56:13)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (56:14)
patient, quiet kinds that give people like a nice space.
Jenn (56:18)
I should mention this, that it's really good I read this one because I this book honestly gave me such a good picture of the characters that are not Ilya, like of Wyatt and of Troy and of that because I was mixing Troy and Ryan in my head so much. And so seeing actually what a dick Troy and Dallas were together as a pair.
was a really good to realize what a turn that is for later. cause some of the stuff like Troy's actually the one who's like, I bet they're fucking. Let's mention a couple of these notes. Troy's the one, I bet they're fucking, and Dallas is like, ew, Rosanoff, whatever, would never, but I bet Hollander's a queer or something, is what they say. And I'm just like, Wow, wow, you're disgusting. But also
Declan (57:06)
Mm, mm.
Jenn (57:08)
You're clocking it but in the most disgusting way possible. I hate you guys. I hate you so much.
But my like favorite like scenes that I like clock to, we like didn't mention those are the like his moment where he's like,
Why do we even fly between these two? It's such a short drive. And I'm like, between Ottawa and Montreal. Well
Declan (57:31)
It's like twelve hours or something.
Jenn (57:34)
no, between Ottawa and Montreal, he's like, Why do we even fly? We don't even get in the air. It's such a short drive because it's only a two hour drive. I know.
Declan (57:40)
Yeah. We don't even get on to that about the the
the the flight anxiety that he has, like the really, really intense
Jenn (57:48)
Yes.
Declan (57:49)
flight anxiety. Like everything
Jenn (57:52)
I know.
Declan (57:53)
about this job for this man is just not for him.
Jenn (57:56)
I'm so
glad I'm I'm honestly like so this was why two why was getting him confused with Troy because doesn't Troy actually have flight anxiety too?
Declan (58:06)
He ends up with it, yeah.
Jenn (58:08)
Or is it Wyatt? Or okay, because of the the ride, I thought one of yeah, the scene.
Declan (58:12)
The scene, yeah.
Jenn (58:16)
because I was like, is it I was like, I was like, no, this will be horrible for Ryan. And then I was like, wait, Ryan's never on that. Like I just have them all mushed together. I know he never ends up on the Avengers team, but it's okay. Because he
Declan (58:26)
Ryan quit at the right time. That's okay, yeah.
Jenn (58:34)
would literally like for real quit.
For real.
Declan (58:37)
Yeah.
So another
thing that I want to mention just before we finish up, is a big thing that plays into obviously Ryan's anxieties as well again, is his performance anxiety in the bedroom, which
Jenn (58:52)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (58:53)
I find very curious for Rachel Reed to to decide to go down because a lot of the time people read MM romance for like the
hot scenes, it's the fantasy, it's the
Jenn (59:06)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (59:07)
the wish fulfilment. What you get here is like it's not that, it's actually a a form of sex and intimacy that is a bit more complex. It's a bit more difficult for Fabian and Ryan to navigate around and it takes empathy and patience and no small amount of motivation to sort of make happen. Why do you think she
Jenn (59:32)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (59:33)
chose to do that?
Jenn (59:35)
Yeah. I okay, so obviously not speaking as a man here. I'll have to be careful how I say this because one of the notes
Declan (59:45)
Yeah.
Jenn (59:47)
I made, one of the notes I made to talk about this, I do really want to talk about this, but often in MF relationships that I'm reading,
Declan (59:55)
Okay.
Jenn (59:55)
there are lots of stories where women have this issue. And women are able to fake it. Women are able to fake it.
Declan (1:00:02)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:00:04)
And
I've read plenty of stories and one of the like romance cliches, whether you want to call it cliche or not, though I wouldn't call it cliche because oftentimes once you are with a partner who is compassionate and tuned into you and willing to take their time, whether you're a male or female or anything in between, is that things go a lot better when you're not feeling stressed and when you can just go with the flow. But however, again, with a woman, you can fake it.
And whether you fake it till you make it or you're just faking it, you don't have to there's no giveaway, as it were,
Declan (1:00:43)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:00:43)
unless someone's really paying attention. Let's be honest.
Declan (1:00:45)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:00:46)
You can whatever. and what's interesting and a whole nother level to take on is in an MM romance, you one of you can't really fake it. So
Declan (1:00:59)
No, there's no such thing.
Jenn (1:01:01)
Yeah, there's no smoke screen you can really put on. And yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Declan (1:01:04)
And I think that is like yeah,
but I think that's that's what causes the anxiety to worsen. It's because
Jenn (1:01:11)
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Declan (1:01:13)
I suppose for a woman most of the time they might not they they're not gonna know unless I want them to know. Whereas with two men, there is no hiding it. Like if something isn't happening, it's just not going up, it's that's it.
Like there is no way around that. So the idea of that
Jenn (1:01:28)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:01:30)
happening and the embarrassment of not being able to perform for someone that has like chronic anxiety, like clinical
Jenn (1:01:37)
Yeah.
Declan (1:01:37)
anxiety, like it actually is perfectly in character that this would be a problem that Ryan would have. And I really like
Jenn (1:01:43)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:01:45)
the way that she goes around, you know, like resolving this without actually like fully resolving it. Like because this seems to be something that Ryan
Jenn (1:01:53)
Yes. Yeah.
Declan (1:01:55)
suffers from.
And Fabian
Jenn (1:01:57)
Yeah.
Declan (1:01:58)
is patient and attentive and does everything. Yeah.
Jenn (1:02:01)
Before he needed medication too. Like
he shared like he always had anxiety around it. And
Declan (1:02:07)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:02:08)
now even if he can, you know, get it up, it's whether or not he can finish or not because of his medication. And he if he gets rid of his medication, then he's anxious and has problems there. And if he's on
Declan (1:02:20)
That never happened, yeah.
Jenn (1:02:21)
his medication, he's not finishing, even if he's having a great time. So I I like she brought it up. And again, especially in contrast.
After the two young bucks we just had who could get off from a stiff breeze where they've been doing it for a decade.
Declan (1:02:35)
Okay.
Jenn (1:02:37)
although again, to also make a comparison is like we may see that be a challenge later on too as our characters get older and possibly be having some medicine involved for Ilya's depression later too. Anyway, sorry, I know I bring them up all the time, but I'm just saying
Declan (1:02:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Jenn (1:02:55)
that could be another phase of a relationship as well. But
Point being, I love that this gets brought up. And I like that we see multiple scenarios with it. You know, there's one where
Declan (1:03:05)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:03:05)
he's alone and it's an issue. Because I've read in other books too where like on their own they're fine. This happens with women too. On their own, they're fine, but it's with a partner that they have a problem or whatever. No,
Declan (1:03:16)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:03:16)
even when Ryan's fully wanting to, he's watching his favorite porn star, he's got everything going, he still can't do it because.
his body, his mind, his medication, all of it has to be in the same thing. And he can't do that with hookups, which again, I haven't been on gay apps or even regular dating apps, but I know just from friends and from the culture that a lot of that is hookup. straight
Declan (1:03:41)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:03:42)
and gay. So I'm not casting dispersions. That's just what the culture is. And then you add in that he's a hockey player who a lot of people
maybe wanting to hook up with him who might know who he is, have expectations of what he might be like. because maybe they're a puck bunny, male or female, there can be puck bunnies. and they're, you know, as he mentioned, he had someone who expected him to be this Dom who wanted to throw him around and spank him and throw him, choke him or whatever. And he's like, that's never gotten me off. He's
Declan (1:04:11)
He said he was no. Yeah.
Jenn (1:04:14)
like, no, I don't want to hurt you at all.
It's just a recipe for disaster. So him, you know, I completely understand why, you know, this kind of goes to our other discussion too. Like what if if he's an out hockey player who's not hooking up and not dating anyone, what does it even mean that he's gay? What does it even matter that he is a gay man willing to date men when he can't get with them and he can't fuck and he can't date or
'Cause he's too anxious. Like, what good is him being gay doing him? You know what I mean? Like, he's just a struggle, man.
Declan (1:04:49)
Yeah, and is is that is
that the reason why he has flown under radar this entire time? Is because like
Jenn (1:04:57)
Definitely.
Declan (1:04:58)
for him it doesn't matter to his own because he can't pursue anything because he is terrified that it'll be revealed
Jenn (1:05:04)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:05:05)
that he can't get it up or that he is like quite like less adventurous in bed in in certain s in certain ways. It's Yeah.
Jenn (1:05:14)
Yeah, yeah, right.
It's so interesting that she did this. It's
Declan (1:05:19)
It's such a curious thing to right. Yeah. That's
Jenn (1:05:21)
so interesting she did this with him, right? Because sorry, but let's analyze this. Let's line up the hockey players that she's showing us, right? We have Ilya, who's bisexual, he can fuck whoever he wants to, right? We have Shane,
Declan (1:05:32)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:05:33)
who is gay, and he's only fucking one guy, let's be honest. But he's hiding it. If he were to come out.
It would be a problem because he's our idol. He's who we look up to. He's been gay
Declan (1:05:43)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:05:44)
this whole time. no. What we have Scott Hunter, Captain America, who comes out by kissing someone in public and it's like, shove it up your ass, everybody. This is me. And they just have to accept it. and yay, he becomes the banner boy, literally, for LGBTQ
Declan (1:06:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:06:01)
in the books, and there he is.
but that doesn't necessarily help Shane or Ilya out because of the rivalry they have going on, everything.
Declan (1:06:08)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:06:08)
And then we have and then we have Ryan who he's not really hiding who he is, but he's also not the most popular. Hit him being gay isn't really helping andor hurting. So the league doesn't really give two shits if he is, because he's not being promiscuous, he's not out hooking up with people in public or causing
Declan (1:06:25)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:06:26)
problem. Cause even Ilya hooking up all the time sometimes could get him in trouble
Declan (1:06:29)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:06:30)
if it was with women too.
Right? Like it isn't just gay hookups that can get people
Declan (1:06:34)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:06:34)
in trouble, right? So she's really showed us like who you're sleeping with or not sleeping with can really cause problems all across the banner for being a celebrity in any way, right? It's just for Ryan. He's just looking for love though. And that's
the thing.
Declan (1:06:51)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:06:51)
Is like being an out gay hockey player, the only
love he'd be getting is probably from puck bunnies and that's not who he's able to fuck because that's an anxiety inducing thing. And so
Declan (1:07:02)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:07:04)
it doesn't do him any good. Like his notoriety would only hurt him because he's not gonna be able to offer them the sexual experience that they want. And then
Declan (1:07:11)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:07:11)
he finds this sweet, femme gay violinist who doesn't want a hockey player. So it's kind of the perfect one to start wooing, I guess.
Declan (1:07:22)
Yeah,
Jenn (1:07:22)
So anyway, that's my analysis of that there. But anyway.
Declan (1:07:23)
exactly. A guy who doesn't
like hockey players, yeah, and is
Jenn (1:07:28)
Yeah.
Declan (1:07:29)
loud and proud and not afraid to hide it. Like, it's
Jenn (1:07:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:07:34)
such an interesting choice to take it. I actually initially read Ryan as being demisexual. So I did because there is like an element of this story where
Jenn (1:07:40)
Thank you. Yes. Okay. Yep.
Declan (1:07:44)
he seems to need like a strong emotional connection with someone to
Jenn (1:07:47)
Yeah, that's what I would have said too. Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:07:51)
you know, actually be able to carry out sex with them. But obviously he is attracted to men in general. Like you can tell that. That's why I wasn't like a hundred percent sure, but it would be like a nice detail
Jenn (1:07:58)
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Declan (1:08:03)
if that was sort of like a a reason behind why he was struggling so much in the past and now that he has Fabian, Fabian is this very secure partner to have, that it might be a good
Jenn (1:08:14)
Right. And I think
Declan (1:08:16)
indication of that.
Jenn (1:08:18)
Yeah. And I think to your point of like if we had another book about them, I think their sexual experiences would get smoother and I hate saying faster because that's not sexy, but like that they would become easier to engage at times
Declan (1:08:33)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:08:34)
because there's already almost that like warm up happening already where he's already very attracted to his partner and he knows he's gonna be safe and he knows that they like the same things. So I think that
that like I don't know that forty percent of things for Ryan that need to be in place with his partner are like already gonna be there when entering a situation with Fabian that aren't there with a stranger. So I think if we got to spend more time with them, we would see that able to happen. And if not, then his boyfriend would just perform for him and he'd be happy with that too. So liked seeing that. But let's
Declan (1:09:12)
Yeah. Yeah. All I'm hearing is
we need we need part two, Fabian Ryan. I think. I think there's there's too much left undone. I think we need to to check in
Jenn (1:09:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Declan (1:09:22)
and see how things are going.
Jenn (1:09:24)
But before before we move on for it, sorry, because I got way too on it. But what did you think of how Rachel Reed had them like warm up to it? How do you think Fabian did in sharing like how like soothing Ryan's fears about it and, you know, sharing what he was okay with happening? Like, how do you think that Rachel Reed did in like setting the scene for their intimate scenes, getting it going? Like, how do you think that was written? I thought it was
My opinion it was very sweet. There it is. It was very sweet. It was very well done. and it got sexier as it went. I really loved all of that, but just wanted to know what you thought as how it was represented.
Declan (1:10:04)
It's
she was doing a very good job of creating a safe space for Ryan and presenting what a safe space looks like in the bedroom. Like communication
Jenn (1:10:15)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:10:16)
is king in the bedroom and not just in the sense of like you can have better pleasure if you're communicating with your partner, you can pursue things that you suppose wanna do, but also in expressing what's gonna make you comfortable and what makes the other person comfortable.
Jenn (1:10:30)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:10:31)
And I think taking the time to like
warm up and not just jump in. This isn't like this isn't a heated exchange. It is it's measured, it's patient, it's
Jenn (1:10:38)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:10:42)
built up. So it is there there's buildup. So like there's proper buildup and not just in an emotional sense but in a physical sense too. I think that really works for this relationship in particular because so much of what makes these two good as a couple is the emotional buildup that they have before anything really happens. And
whenever they're having their sort of sex scenes and they're having their moments, it's almost like a microcosm of the wider relationship. Of like, we need to build up the emotional security first before we go into the more physical, which is exactly what the overarching thing that's happened with the book and their relationship in general. So it's almost like a tiny version
Jenn (1:11:20)
Yeah.
Declan (1:11:20)
of that happening in that moment. But she's done it very well and she's
presented a version of sex which I think is underrepresented in MM romance. Which is something that considers
Jenn (1:11:30)
Yeah.
Declan (1:11:31)
safety, considers taste and you know, security, emotional stability.
Jenn (1:11:38)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:11:39)
Like there's lots of really important stuff that she's included in those scenes that I think really
Jenn (1:11:45)
Yeah.
Declan (1:11:46)
really looks well for her. I think it it shows that she is a a considered
Jenn (1:11:49)
Yeah.
Declan (1:11:50)
writer. Yeah, I think this is the best written so far.
I think it's better written to Ravery to be honest.
Jenn (1:11:57)
Yeah. Yeah. I really think that and I think it was intentional, even though it was our earlier book. I mean, Ilya and Shane are just dumb kids. They're really just dumb kids. They do a lot of dangerous situations. They have very like honestly kind of risky sex in some scenarios too. Of like I mean, I know it's all consensual and fun, so like that's all good, but truly they have some pretty like risky situations and things that they do and they're kids. Like they're kids, and it's a little
like more forgivable when your kids because nobody's really like hurting anyone in that.
Declan (1:12:32)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:12:33)
and so it makes sense that these two again like 30-year-olds who've been through stuff are being more diligent. And I think in the case of Fabian being more experienced and knowing what he likes and
Declan (1:12:44)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:12:45)
really liking Ryan really helps, you know? because he's able like he knows what he likes and he also knows that he
is really into this guy and he really cares about him. So he's willing to like walk through these things with him and and truly ease Ryan's anxiety and just be like, hey, there's
Declan (1:13:06)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:13:07)
literally no rush with this. And if all we do is like fool around, like that's fun. So there's no end goal to this. And I think that even in that's like a warning in like for the reader as well that like the setup of the scene is different than what you're getting out of other ones, you know.
one of the the first time they fool around is like a many page scene and it's very sexy, even though it's not the typical
Declan (1:13:34)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:13:35)
scene that you have. And I love that. I think she does it really well.
Declan (1:13:39)
Yeah, yeah. That's a nice spot as well.
everyone, thank you so much for joining us. Jen, thank you in particular. It's been really, really great having you on again. Would you like to let everyone know where they can watch you, see your content?
Jenn (1:13:54)
Yes, absolutely. So I am the book refuge on YouTube and Instagram, mostly on Goodreads too, but those are the main places that I am. And yeah, I'm a hundred percent focused on romance, all types of it. and lately it's been a lot of heated rivalry fanfiction, as you know. so
Declan (1:14:12)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:14:12)
that's what I talk about on my channel. Yep.
Declan (1:14:16)
Perfect. Well, everyone, thank you so much for joining us. just a quick shout out as well to our book club on Fable. It's the Long Palad book club. At the moment we are reading Echoes of Us by Alex Cross.
It is a
volleyball romance and it is very, very good. I recommend giving it a try. But everyone, check out out there. Thank you so much for joining us. Don't be afraid to comment, subscribe, or share this around with anyone you think might enjoy it. But again, thanks to Jen and we'll see you next time.