Clay Klima

jesseduke.net

What is Faith & Purpose?

Ordinary people who have been transformed by an extraordinary God tell their stories of what happened and what their lives are like now.

Cailin: Welcome everyone to
Faith and Purpose podcast.

Each episode of this podcast contains the
personal testimony of an ordinary person

transformed by an extraordinary God.

My name is Kaelyn and I'm
here to introduce this podcast

for my friend Jesse Duke.

Jesse is a husband, father, author,
life recovery guide, lay counselor,

and small group leader, but his
most important role is disciple.

As a disciple of Jesus.

Jesse created this podcast to help other
believers tell their faith stories.

We'll be hearing the personal
testimonies of all sorts of people

who have one thing in common,
Jesus has transformed their lives.

Jesus used parables because he created
us to learn best through story.

And as we listen to how God has worked
in others lives, we find encouragement

and inspiration for our own faith walk.

Whether you are already a believer or
just a curious seeker, we believe that

as you listen to these stories, you will
be encouraged on your own faith journey.

We are sure that God can speak to you
through one of these episodes and that you

will see that our heavenly father truly
works all things together for our good.

When we simply love and trust him.

If you are currently going through a
trial, we believe that you will come

to see that your troubles, heartbreaks,
and failures are not gravestones, but

stepping stones into new life in Christ.

Here's Jesse with today's guest.

Jesse: Welcome everybody to
Faith and Purpose podcast.

I'm very excited today.

I have my new friend, Clay Klima,
who's going to tell his faith story.

How are you doing today, Clay?

Clay: Oh, I'm doing really well, Jesse.

Thanks for having me on.

it's a real blessing.

Jesse: I've been looking forward to this
because I interviewed your wife, last

week and I'm going to have, your, her
episode and your episode, and then we're

going to have an episode with both of you.

So I look forward to that.

So tell us your story.

Clay: yeah, so my story starts in,
Arlington, Virginia, where I was born,

and I'm the oldest of four children.

I have a younger brother, and I was
born to two parents, obviously that

were, they're still together I was a
very scared child, a very anxious child.

And, we grew up in a good home
and it was, I was always afraid

even at a very young age.

I was afraid of.

my parents, if they would go off to
work that they wouldn't come home

or something would happen to them.

and just afraid of them.

something happening to
them or really you name it.

I had just I guess you could say
like sensitive, really sensitive.

person and I think I can remember,
at one point it was, I think the

desert storm war had just started.

And I remember it didn't turn
out to be much, but I remember

it was a war and I was worried.

and I asked my mom about God
and what to do about this.

And I told her I was scared and.

And I just remember her saying,
we can say our prayers and

we'd say our say, the prayer.

Now I lay me down to sleep.

I forget how to say it now that
if my soul before if take my soul

before I wake or something like that.

so starting off, basically,
I was really always scared.

And I had this, fear all the time.

and we were brought up as a cat.

We were Catholic.

I went to Catholic school.

and I remember, in those days that
I, I didn't really make a connection,

And so my parents, I wouldn't, nobody
really would talk to me about God the

way that I wanted to know about him.

I was, I, along with being very,
scared a lot of the time and

anxious, I was always very curious.

Like I wanted to know, the
nature of God at a young age.

And I, I can, I think.

Growing up the, I had a really
good childhood, and it was

like a storybook almost.

there was issues I had, we had our issues
and stuff, but, it was two parents and

me and my brother and we had, we would
go to church, we were involved in the

church, but it was part of the school.

And, at one point I was an altar boy,
but for me, it was never a connection.

like I didn't have that person to
give me the answer to the questions.

It was just like, this is what we do,
and the focus and I can remember the

focus in Catholicism a lot is on, rules.

And I would ask the priest questions
about God, I think one time I remember

the priest, We were learning about
confession and, our little second grade

teacher or whatever brought us over to
the school and, said, this is what you

do when you're, you're going to go in
this little room and talk to the priest

and he's going to forgive your sins.

And I just remember asking a question
like, Why don't I just talk to God?

And I think I was just a
kid, and I didn't understand.

I was just like, I just had a teacher.

I was like, can I just do,
can I just talk to God?

I, can I just ask him?

And I got in a lot of trouble that.

and I remember being really hurt by that.

And I remember that I did it anyway.

And I went in and I told him, my little
things is, Oh, I, got in a fight with

my brother or whatever it was, and
he told me to say, 10 Hail Marys.

so I came out of the confessional
and I just remember feeling

angry, just that's, this is it.

I just got to say this prayer 10 times.

And, and so it created
this kind of dynamic of.

and that anger I think just grew.

I, I was also I don't know.

I just struggled a lot.

I struggled a lot with people
and other kids and I didn't

want to follow directions.

And so through that learning process,
I got my young mind and body were just

learning about how, like, okay, I'm a
problem and I got to go when I asked

these questions like about God, I
think another one was at that time, the

Catholic Church was with the doctrine of.

if aborted, if a child's aborted, it
goes to hell is what they taught at

this church and I just, I remember
just not understanding about that

and didn't like, first of all,
didn't know what really, what did

even think about that, but I asked
questions about that, why would it be?

And I was just told that's the way it is.

So it created this,

basically this problem with authority
and also underneath that problem, like

by proxy, a problem with God, in a
sense, and so I just checked out at

that time and I know animosity against.

Our Catholic brothers or the church
there and at all right now, I just, this

is just my part of the part of my story
and the way things unfolded because my

personality, I was afraid all the time I
had this anxiety and also I was curious

and, rambunctious and just for whatever
reason it didn't click for me and, and

so my parents, we would still go to
church cause I would go to school there.

During the week and we go to church on
Sundays and I was in the Boy Scouts there.

So it was a lot of, I think it
was a lot of more of a social,

Jesse: Yeah.

Clay: it was more of a social activity.

and the religion happened to be.

a prerequisite for joining these social
groups, I think for my parents, and

so that's all to say that nothing
wrong with the Catholic church at all.

And anybody out there
listening, that's Catholic.

I love you.

And there's no beef there.

It just at all.

It's just that for me, no one took
the time to explain things to me.

In a way that I needed to be explained.

So it created this problem with
authority and that kind of followed

me throughout that time period.

and so I just went along with the motions
and I think that's what my family did too.

we would, show up to church and then
I just, I remember I just love the

donuts in the hall and I would just
look forward to that and we would

even go to the seven 30 church.

Because that early in the
morning, they didn't sing.

And it was like, you get in and out.

And I remember that's the
framework that we had.

and my mom, she would, she was
involved in the church and she would

be what they called like a lectern.

And, so she would come up and read the,
scripture and I was the altar boy and

there were moments there where I felt
really I felt the presence of God.

And I had these moments of this is good.

Like my mom's here, she's
carrying the book down.

There's my dad, my brother in the
front row, I'm in the altar boy.

And so I had these moments and I,
but then I had these questions and

I couldn't, I never made this bridge
to, having that personal relationship.

I didn't feel like that was available.

I guess at that time.

and so we all just went
through the motions.

And I think at one point the church,
the priest said to my parents,

or he said, the priest said on a
Christmas service that basically the

priest said, the Santa is not real.

And that really sent waves through my
house and we, my parents were upset cause

we were still pretty young at that time.

And, for the priest is a person that, he's
involved in the school and everything.

So he's saying that Santa's not real.

It upset my parents, and they were like,
I don't know, not, they didn't just

stop going, but it upset that sermon.

It was like on Christmas Eve and.

It just seemed like upsetting and
then, I think, fast forward, I stayed

in the Catholic school and I got
confirmed and all of those things and

nowhere in there was Jesus a factor.

And so as I continue to tell my
story, I just want to frame it as

this sort of search for It was never,
it never ended up in a personal

relationship with Jesus Christ.

and so all I remember of my confirmation
is the sushi that they had afterward.

And it was the first
time I ever ate sushi.

My dad gave me this gold necklace.

And I was like, Oh, I
got a gold necklace now.

And that's all I remember.

I had no connection to the underlying,
I had no connection, to God and to

the, to, to what it's all about.

And it was all like I said, surface level.

So I do remember one time, I
think the first time that I

remember feeling God's presence.

I happened to go on this,
mission trip and it was on a

summertime and nobody else went.

None of my friends went.

It was just me and some of the
church people and the priest.

And we went to a very impoverished
area of Luray Caverns.

In, Virginia and I was all alone.

So I think my mom just, she needed me to
go because there was no one to watch me.

And so she was like,
you're going to this trip.

because there was something
else going on and I just needed

to have someone to watch me.

So here I am, it was like two overnight
trips and there was a bunch of people,

but I didn't know them, the other
people there, and we were putting tin

on the top of these people's roofs.

These like trailer homes that
they didn't have any, anything.

And I just remember like loving it.

I remember looking at the people in these
like really old people that couldn't

get out of their house and they were,
hooked up to ventilators and stuff.

and I just felt really good.

It was like the middle of
the summer and everyone was

complaining, but I just loved it.

I love the work.

And I remember talking to the family and
something happened to me on that trip.

Yeah.

And one, I think it was one morning
I was just eating breakfast and

there was the priest was in the
front making the announcements of

the day and what we're going to do.

And I just felt completely swept away.

Like this cool feel like feeling just.

God was just there and I just started
bawling and I just felt like I fell

out of my seat I was just eating cereal
little kid eating cereal I was like

sixth seventh grade or something like
that and I just felt God overwhelmed

me and I just remember even at that
age feeling like that was That this

was something and then people were all
over me and they were checking on me.

Are you okay?

And I just don't know what happened.

I just fell out.

and I just remember being overwhelmed
with tears of joy and I was just

crying and just Didn't know why.

And I think that's something that
sticks out in my mind, looking back

at an encounter, with the Lord.

And it was just a totally pure, good
feeling all the way around, a feeling of

being held and supported and belonging.

And it was like, I've never felt,
I never felt anything like that.

And I just remember that moment.

And then, the trip ended and came back
home and no one talked to me about it,

or I didn't talk to anyone else about it.

It just was this private
moment, this moment that

happened that was private to me.

Jesse: And how old were you at this time?

Clay: I, I must be like, I'd say whatever,
however you're old in like seventh grade.

Jesse: 12

Clay: Something like that.

10, 11, 12 in there somewhere

Jesse: Okay.

Clay: I just remember feeling like a
knowing like that was God and he came.

He loves me.

He knows me and he loves
me and I belong to him.

Jesse: Wow.

Clay: I just all of that happened
and it was over in a flash.

And then I forgot about it and
everyone else forgot about it.

And I never talked
about it until recently.

So that happened and then flash
forward back to this scenario.

So I finished out seventh grade,
still just going through the motions,

we're missing church a little bit more
because my parents are a little bit

disillusioned with the whole Santa thing.

And, when that foundation gets
shaken a little bit, all the

pleasantries in the outward.

showing up, the church life is, if it's
not rooted in God, it doesn't last.

If it's just a social thing, it
wavers like any social thing.

So I think that's what happened.

But then keep, keeping going.

I start, I've still have developed
this sort of Problem with authority

and not much connection, like
daily personal connection with

God, then nine 11 happened.

And we went to church that
day after nine 11 happened.

and we lived in DC, so it was really cool.

Like we actually saw the, we
saw the plane go over our house

before it hit the Pentagon.

and

I didn't see that, but my brother
did because he was going to school.

Where he could see it at that time.

I was, my parents were in DC at that time.

And I was at my, I was at that
time I was in high school and I

was going to a Catholic high school
and I was having a lot of issues.

but as far as my family goes, we went
to church that day and the priest, I

think, I forget what he said, but it
was something like, unfortunately,

all those souls jumping out of the
building went This is what he said.

I remember he said, if they, if
those people weren't saved, he was

like, say, talking about the tragedy.

And he was talking about the
people that we watched jump out of

the building and to their death.

And he was saying the real tragedy is if
those people weren't saved, they went, if

they weren't baptized, they went to hell.

And my mom just got up and left.

she, she grabbed my hand.

She.

Her and my dad and my
brother, they just walk.

As soon as he said that,
they just walked out.

they couldn't deal with that.

and then we never went back
and then church was just not a

thing anymore after that day.

never talked about it.

and it just disappeared from my life.

the Catholic church and what took
its place was this sort of angst.

And this anger that I had.

And I think that during that time, at
least on some unconscious level, I was

being fed by the spirit and connected
to the spirit through interactions

with the church and that kind of thing.

And friends that I had that were in the
church that were at different stages

of belief and different families.

And so when that ended, there was this
void and this sort of hollow feeling core.

And I just remember I started, I started
to really want to be somebody else.

I wish that I was somebody else.

I wish that I was more popular.

I wish that I had

more skills.

and

it, I really started to, I think as a
teenager, you really need that guidance.

in a way that is really paramount.

and although I continued going to
Catholic school, there, the mentions

of God and things like that were gone.

And it was just a school at that point.

And, And there wasn't that
lasting relationship that I had

with God that I could go to.

And so basically I just started
doing things that were really

out of my character.

I tried to start to, I would start, I
started to, I started getting fights.

I started to skip school.

I started to look for
that sense of belonging.

And although I never really felt like
I belonged anywhere, even before, I

think, like I said, on some levels I was.

But I started to look towards,

I started to hang out with
people that were doing a lot of

drugs, smoking a lot of weed.

I didn't fit in with the.

I never felt good enough to be
in with the in crowd at school, I

wasn't good at talking to girls.

I didn't have a lot of self
confidence, didn't have a lot of

self esteem or self compassion.

I had braces throughout most of high
school and it was just I was still growing

into my body and my body was bigger
in certain places, like it was just

weird and I obviously had all these
new hormones coming into my body and

interests and stuff and and I just
didn't really feel like I had a lot

of friends and I ended up looking
to through a friend of a friend.

I had this one friend and he was pretty
like, much like me, socially awkward,

teenager, just trying to get through
things and do well and, He had a

brother and his brother was in a gang
and through one thing or another, I,

we ended up sometimes hanging out with
his brother and his brother was heavily

into like drugs and gang activity.

And so

I just felt enamored with that.

I felt like that was that I was looking
for something else, someone else.

To be anyone but me, anyone but
this scared, awkward kid that I

was, and I was starting to have a
lot more conflict with my parents.

And my parents didn't have that same
social structure that we had where

all my friends were in connected and
that same social structure I had when

we were plugged into the Catholic
Church, it was different because they

could trust the people that I was
with and that was gone by high school.

And so they just, they didn't have that.

So they didn't trust me
to go out with people.

And so I was starting to
clash with my parents a lot.

Like I said, skipping school, hanging out
with these people that they didn't know.

And, I remember that I
started to smoke weed

and

that became delightful to it got me
out of my, it got me out of myself.

In a way, and so a lot of my life from
that point on was, it was a search

for God, but it was also a search
for something else outside of myself.

and so that kind of void and that kind
of churning angst, the weed gave that a

way to me a way to just forget about it.

And so slowly I stopped hanging
out with my one friend and

I started hanging out with.

His brother in this gang.

and then things got really bad.

And I started, I found that sense
of belonging in this group and they

were doing really bad stuff and it
things ramped up really quickly.

And, they were dealing drugs.

This was during the rave time.

so they were, there was ecstasy.

And, so I started to do a dual
dovetail, just on one hand, the

drugs gave me this, that sense of

God in a way it's you're outside
of yourself, you're getting these

experiences and these kind of really.

intense moments where you're like on
ecstasy or, your brain's flooded with

this, these chemicals and you feel
like that's, it's similar to God.

You think that, you think that, and I
wasn't thinking that at that time, but

it was just,

it was, that was that.

So I was starting to go
from weed to ecstasy.

And then at the same time,
they were doing these.

Gang conflicts that I got basically
they jumped me into the gang and

a bunch of them beat you up And then
you're like a part of their gang and

then I would do Stuff with them going
around harassing people getting in

fights on other gangs Really dangerous
stuff, and I just didn't care.

I just became more and more reckless
and You And I kept doing more and

more drugs, and then that led to the
psychedelic drugs, which now I know

that those open up demonic forces.

And make you susceptible to those, things,

but that the drugs took the place
of what I was searching for.

This, the game kind of gave me that
belonging that I was searching for.

And then the drugs gave me that, those
God like moments that I was trying to get.

And that's all we did.

We would fight people and do drugs and
sell drugs and, this kind of thing.

And meanwhile, I had my family back at
home who I had pretty much disowned and

I was acting like a different person,
dressing differently, talking differently,

cussing my parents out.

at one point, like a rival at one
point, a rival gang found out where

I lived and they attacked my house.

Jesse: All

Clay: and that was things
started to all spiral.

And then I went to jail a couple
times, was arrested a couple times.

went to jail and then finally I got,

I got, so much happened in this time, my
parents had bought me a car in the gang,

I allowed someone in the gang to race my
car and they totaled it and miraculously

I wasn't hurt, but then they fled.

So then I got charged with all the damage.

And, was lying to my parents.

I was just going out,
I was skipping school.

And then.

Finally, I got basically, I got caught
on school with weapons and I was, I

went into a very brutal fight with this
kid that I didn't like in my school

and I took a lock, a combination lock
grabbed it in my fist and I, went up to

him and I just started, we just started
fighting, but I wasn't fighting fair.

I had that.

And I don't know, it's shameful to talk
about, but this is part of what happened.

And this is, I just
have to say this stuff.

So I, I destroyed his face and
then I think someone else was

hitting me and basically I got
expelled for that incident.

And at the time I thought that was
a warranted, After that, then him

and other people were all still
chasing me, but I got expelled.

And then I, and then from there I ran away
and I went on a, I just left my house.

I just left my house, disappeared,
didn't tell my parents.

And I went with some other
member of this gang and stayed

at his house and did drugs.

and if for the love of God, one friend
that I told you that All the way back

in the beginning that his brother is
the one that I started hanging out

with that one friend knew where I was
at and he had the goodness to call

my mom and told him where I was at.

And so my mom showed up, took me
out of there, put me in a rehab,

intensive rehab, and that was
the first time I was exposed to.

Modern psychology, postmodernist thought,
thought forms of modern psychology.

And I was in this group setting and it
was a gestalt group for substance abuse.

It was an intensive thing.

And I got drug tested and, I was
on probation too, at that time.

And that really.

formed, something in me that I did
well there with the structure and

with the drug testing and everything.

I actually just stopped
doing the, those things and

got things more on track.

And.

It just set the, it set a seed in me
that there is good possible, and being in

other people, being around other people
that were trying to get clean other kids

and the main therapist was really good.

I liked him and so it worked well
for me and helped me to get clean.

and then I finished that and
Was able to graduate high school

in this alternative program.

Basically just like where
all the bad kids go so that.

so that they can finish
school and get their GED.

So all that I went from all that from
that Catholic school and fell all

the way down and then public school.

And then I graduated from this
alternative program while I was

in probation and in therapy.

And,

I was still after that finished,
I still found a way to go back to

normal and was just still using drugs.

And still finding that empty part, that
emptiness, that fear, that I just couldn't

shake, that I wanted to do something else.

I wanted to be somebody else.

Still, I just never felt like
I was good and I was enough.

I never felt that way.

Even after all that,
even after graduating.

And by that point, all the things
that I had done just added to

the shame and the emptiness.

And it became this sort of it's
just like a hollow kind of core

that you're trying to get away from.

And you invent new personalities
to try to bolster yourself against

the emptiness inside.

you're also looking for God in a way.

And I got involved in like hip hop.

So I started doing, I started wanting,
I got involved in I was very, I was one

of those guys that was really confused.

I would, have the Che Guevara fist bump.

but at the same time, mommy and
daddy are taking care of me.

And,

Jesse: So let me interrupt for a
second, just for a timeline here.

you went to this treatment, and
you were able to graduate from

high school, and you moved back
in with your parents after that.

Clay: yeah, yep.

Moved back in with my parents and

Jesse: started back with
the drugs and seeking.

Clay: yeah, started back with the seeking
and the drugs and, I didn't want to go

to college, ended up going to college
at my parents behest, I'm noticing

the time now, so I ended up going to
college and I got really involved in

what I consider social justice, trying
to go and help oppressed people.

And all the time I was not some,
I didn't submit to any authority.

So I had this big thing against
the government and authority.

And, I went to so I went to
this college and they just

pumped me up with that stuff.

They have class, they have classes,
I pretty much got a degree in it.

Jesse: Yeah.

Clay: I think my degree
was political science, but

all throughout that thread of loneliness
and emptiness was there and I was more

forming myself against what I didn't like,

which was the mainstream establishment.

And at that point I had developed
a negative view of Christianity and

would bad mouth, Christianity and,

the ways that I felt like it
was holding up the system, or

whatever, or the traditional values.

And I had this connection with
Christianity and racism and

bigotry and all these things.

And I viewed myself as this open book
and I was in, got heavy into all these

philosophies of Nietzsche and other
things, and was really deep into all of

that sort of philosophical nowhere land
and I, that carried me throughout college.

And then I just, again, this feeling of
wanting to be somebody else to get away,

I decided to go to live in Thailand.

So when I graduated high school, when
I graduated college, I had 500 in my

pocket, I've got on a plane to Thailand.

And the next 10 years of my
life were spent overseas.

And I could do, I could talk
more and more about that.

but I don't want to waste the time.

So in, in Asia, what I did, what I did
was a lot of mainly just running away

from my family, running away from who I
was, running into trying to be somebody

else, trying to do something else and
being embedded in another culture.

And,

while I was there, I got involved in
Eastern thought, philosophy, all of

these things, Buddhism pretty much.

And I would go to these temples
and I had no idea what I was doing.

I just was.

Just sampling anything
that I would come my way.

any new thing, new experience, I was also
just trying to fulfill so many different.

Like lusts and desires and
other things, just trying to

max out on life kind of thing.

but I started to intake in those
Buddhist thought, and the thoughts of

reincarnation and the thoughts of, some
of the beliefs that the Buddhists have.

and I was meeting people in the,
in that lived by these beliefs.

and was embedded in a culture, a
collectivist culture that believed that.

And I really just embedded into it.

Like I became really good at being
like a chameleon, and I would just,

if I was whoever I was with, wherever
I was at, I would just pretend.

Because I felt like I was nothing, nobody.

so I learned Thai and later I
moved to Vietnam and I had a

motorcycle company there and sold
motorcycles and imported them.

and I was just doing life
at 150 miles an hour.

it was, I don't, I could go
more and more, but there was no

semblance or thought really of God.

It was just, Long binges of
drinking, crazy behaviors, I was

teaching at one point, I was doing
all kinds of stuff over there, but

I was not involved in my family.

long story short, the mafia in
Vietnam began to extort me for

the business that I had there.

And they were chasing by the time I left,
they were chasing me around with swords.

I also, I was just involved in a lot of
not good behavior, things that are, I'm

not proud of treating women not well.

and it all culminated and blew up
in my face and I had to go, and this

was like over a seven year period.

And I made, I think I made two trips home.

Jesus was nowhere in
the picture of all this.

I had to stay at a friend's house
that was in the embassy and my mom

and I called my mom and I said, mom,
I just need you to get me out of here.

And she bought me a ticket and
I left like a day or two later,

escorted to the airport, came home,
crash landed again at her house.

Then things were very
dark for a very long time.

I went into a deep depression.

I knew that I had to reckon with.

My life, I knew that I couldn't keep
living, doing whatever I wanted.

But I didn't know what to do.

I didn't know what guidance was.

I didn't even know what I had done wrong.

I wasn't really willing to like, it took
me a long time to do like inventory,

but for time sake, I'll just try to
encapsulate this is I ended up crash

landed back here by that time, my
parents had retired to Fernandina.

And we're living on the island.

That's how I ended up here.

So when I got back, I was living with
them and I was like, 30 something.

I had nothing, no, no friends, no car,
no job, no skill, no, no viable skill

sets that I could say anything about.

I had no concept of God.

I, Jesus was the furthest
thing from my mind.

I was full of.

bitterness, resentment, depression,
that empty feeling was still there.

That hole was still there
and bigger and darker.

And I knew by that point, I
knew I couldn't just throw

drugs in it and make it go away.

I couldn't throw alcohol in it.

And I just knew because I had done that.

I'd done that.

I couldn't just.

implant myself in a new group,
a new, a gang or a new culture,

I knew that wouldn't satisfy it.

My relationships with my family or
that were pretty much destroyed.

I had pretty much shunned them.

For seven years by that point and didn't
talk to them, have any understanding

of anything going on in their lives.

so I just knew I needed, I knew that
I, nothing I knew nothing that I

could do, but what I decided to do
was to learn how to do counseling.

And I thought back about that one group
that I did and decided to go for that.

So I put all my eggs in that basket.

And, it was more like I didn't
want to do it, but I just felt like

this is what you need to do this.

so I, what I did was I packed up
and I moved to Colorado, to go

to, this school called Naropa.

Naropa.

Which is a quote unquote
alternative school.

It was, they offered a master's
in mental health counseling.

And I had a good friend of mine that
I did that hip hop stuff with that

was living out there and had a family.

So it seemed like a good move.

so I went out there.

And this was,

early thirties and I just turned
40 just to give you an idea.

So this was early
thirties, to mid thirties.

And that world out there was a

different world.

It's a lot of light and love.

And you have a lot of people, in
Naropa, especially my school was

actually created by Buddhist monks.

And.

Like postmodernist thinkers.

So those are who made the school like, so
I would have chosen a different school,

now, but I ended up out there and you're
in this beautiful setting of the Rockies

Jesse: Is this in Boulder.

Clay: Boulder.

Yeah.

Boulder, it's hippie town.

Lots of trusts of far ends, lots
of, take over our fists and stuff

and all of that kind of thing.

but anyway, I went for it and

felt really good for a little while,
out there learning this stuff.

and then, some

kind of old demons came out.

So I started getting opened up to
all this sort of extension on Eastern

thought that I had, I said, why I
was drawn to that school is because

of all the time I spent in Asia and
they carry that into, mindfulness

training and, experiential counseling.

and

it is.

As far from biblical as you can
get, I'll say that in, that,

but it took a turn to me turning inward
and beginning to understand, beginning

to actually look at this hole that I
felt inside of me, because prior to

that, it had been driving my whole life.

Like not only my lusts and my desires and
my, passions had been driving me, but also

just that whole, trying to cover it up,
trying to fit in, trying to be enough.

And so for the first time with
that program, they made me as a

part of that program, I had to
go through counseling myself.

and that was a game changer because.

It really helped that was the first time
I was able to sit down with somebody and

be Me and although those relationships
weren't guided by biblical principles and

those counselors weren't christians They
were good counselors and they doing what

you're similar what you're doing here with
me right now Is they would listen and let

me speak Talk and help me to learn to be
still and observe my inner the working

pieces of Buddhism I got from the program,
the meditation part, the mindfulness part.

So in Asia, I was involved in
the fetishization of Buddhism

and, going to these temples
and taking selfies and acting.

Acting like different, but I
never actually tried it out.

So this way I was trying it out,
but I was also doing counseling.

And the school is, they promote
whatever you want to promote,

whatever you feel like is your truth.

That's what they're all about,
and so I got it heavily Embedded

in that and lost my way again.

No structure.

No submission No fear of the lord only
fear of people fear of who can accept me.

Can I do this?

Can I?

Finally, get my life together on my own.

And those practices, they all point back
to you that the truth is somewhere in you.

And if you just sit with it long
enough and learn more about yourself

and do enough shadow work and
do enough counseling that you're

going to, you're going to save you
pretty much is what they teach.

this is what modern counseling teaches.

Unfortunately, some forms of it.

and so that's what I was learning.

And I was learning that for myself.

And then I was learning that
to teach other people that.

so guess what happened?

I start looking at myself for real.

And guess what?

I saw a big old hole and
emptiness and not good.

And I flipped out.

I freaked out.

I went on a.

I went on a drug binge.

I got my hands on some, somebody's
ADD meds and some of those

dispensaries and I just went haywire.

I went haywire like at the time I was, at
the time I was taking care of my friend's

house and I just trashed the place and
he was away and then we had a big falling

out and then I almost failed out of school
and the teachers, obviously they can see.

so the lady in charge of my program,
this was like a year into it, the lady

calls me in and I just told her, I was
like, I can't tell the difference between

what's me and what's everybody else.

I can't.

And she was like, I can't basically
based on what I said to her, she said, I

can't ask you, this isn't going to work.

I can't in ethical standards.

pass you to go to the next level of this
master's program because you're having

this crisis or psychosis or whatever.

And, during that time I would take
all these ADD meds and stay up all

night and climb the mountains and
think I was getting close to the

high universe, power, the nature,
a lot of it is like nature worship.

and the you in the universe and and
so at one hand I'm going through this

psychosis, drug fueled, I'm smoking this
really potent marijuana that they have

out there that you can buy anywhere.

And I'm getting fueled with all this
look inside yourself and sit down and

meditate, find the truth in yourself.

I'm looking at that and seeing the
truth inside of me is nothing that

I really that I can find here.

That's worth a dime.

And then on top of that, there's all
this, spirit guides and find your

this, that or the other, whatever.

And so it just sent me into a spiral.

And then I ended up failing the
program and it was a huge, I was like,

I can't believe this happened again.

I didn't go through my whole story,
but there in between this time, there's

a few other launches and failure.

It's like getting back up and
then starting a whole new life.

And then an epic failure.

There's a few of those to get to this one.

And then this one happened and
something told me to just go home again.

Cause I had nothing, no
confidence or nothing to stand on.

I was just following whatever
everyone else was telling me to do,

whatever everyone else was doing.

I was doing that and it just
kept leading me to nothing.

So

COVID hit at that time as well.

And.

It was a convenient reason to go home.

And so I packed up live.

Basically that life exploded and I
went home, drove home because of COVID.

But the truth is not COVID.

What took me home was same

set circumstances.

And then I got home and
I had that to cover me.

And so now I'm like 36, 37 back
at home again, not with no degree.

And of course I wasn't
truthful with my family.

About why.

That the fact that I had almost, that
I've pretty much failed out this program.

And then I went out in the ocean.

I don't know what I was doing, but I
think I was on some kind of self destruct.

I took a surfboard out in the ocean
at hurricane force winds and tumbled

over and separated my patella.

So like one, one part
of my leg went that way.

The other part went the other way

Jesse: Oh.

Clay: and I pushed it back on together.

They're like.

Mel Gibson on the beach.

People were like, looking
at me like I was crazy.

And I walked home and then
ate dinner with my family.

And later my knee was like this.

So I had to go to the hospital.

And then I was, and then I was basically
chair bound at my parents house

during COVID having failed out of this
program, not having told them that

with nothing, no girlfriend, no family,
no friends, and a bunch of addictions.

And I just remember
feeling like I want to die.

I guess this is it.

Like all the time too, I
realized I'm mad at God.

I'm angry.

My heart is hard.

It's hard to the world.

I don't know what love is.

I don't know what intimacy is.

don't know my, here I am approaching
40 and I've done all this stuff

and nothing has satisfied me.

Nothing has helped me with this
emptiness, this nothingness that I feel.

Even drugs at that point, Drugs,
different relationships, girls,

different countries, different jobs.

I got really good at pretending
and lying and doing all that

stuff and none of it helped.

And so I just felt like
maybe I just was a mistake.

I was a mistake.

Maybe I just wasn't supposed to be here.

So I got in that frame and I was
just Also forced to stay at my room.

So I couldn't just run
out and do activities.

So I was like forced to be alone
in this room with all of that.

And I just felt again, I had to do it.

I just felt this like wind come over
me and I was like, okay, I'm going

to just get my life together again,
but I'm going to do it for real.

And I'm going to stop everything,
So I stopped trying to smoke weed.

I stopped drinking.

I stopped all that stuff.

I started exercising and at
the time I had no constraints.

my, I was living under
my parents roof again.

so I didn't have to find, I didn't have
to support myself so I could spend the

whole time just like diving into myself.

So I started doing that.

I was.

I started listening to Jordan Peterson
and Wayne Dyer and, some of these other

like kind of people, and Wayne Dyer
in particular, I got latched onto.

And he really, I remember this
one part where he actually takes

the book of Matthew and brings
out this phrase of the I am.

So he takes the scripture, rips it from
its context, removes it from God and

then packages it as this special gateway
that if you just say, I am whatever

you say after that's going to happen.

So I started getting into this.

And it started working on some level.

I had all these, I started filling up
my room with these statements, it was

like, I am great and I am successful.

And I, this, that, I am whatever.

And

I started to get into the new age.

So I got sober and then I started
to do, instead of going to God,

I went to this other realm.

And It's all about the universal mind.

So instead of looking at God and
finally collapsing into God's

arms, I went to these people and I
started to think I was doing, and.

Things got a lot better for me.

I got, I was sober.

I started doing yoga daily,
and really getting into the

breathing practices of yoga.

And I would, sit in meditation
and, I really started to feel some

changes and I even started to, pray.

I would pray to the universe, like dear
universe, thank you for this day of life.

thank you, et cetera.

I also, started getting
crystals and all that stuff.

And I'm starting to think Oh, and I ended
up getting back into that program and

Jesse: Naropa.

Clay: at Naropa, I did all that Wayne
Dyer stuff is that I am a counselor

and somehow I got back into the
program and I was doing it online.

And I, so I really believed
like this stuff was working.

And then all of a sudden I got like
a 5, 000 grant from the school.

They just gave me 5, 000 out of nowhere.

and I was like, This stuff really works.

if I just align, line up, tune
up my chakras to the universe and

say the right things and get my
head in the right place and just

hold onto this positive positivity

at all costs.

mentality, I can do it.

I can heal myself.

I can do it.

And I started seeing this psychic
online and she would do these

practices from Alistair Crowley
where they fill this bubble of light

and fill it with all these colors.

And all these people mentioned
Jesus, all these people talk about

God and they are so far from it.

It's scary to look back at it now,
because they do what the devil does.

They do what the devil does.

And they took what God made for
good and they rip it out and they

bend it for their own purposes.

And that's exactly what I was doing.

But the most dangerous
part is you feel good.

you're doing yoga, your
six packs coming in.

You're, Thigh muscles are blowing up.

you're looking good.

You're breathing.

you're clean.

You're not doing any drugs.

you're on the path of love and light
and the universe is lined up with

your chakras and you're humming.

If you hum enough hums, you're going to,

that's where I was thinking,
really, and it was working.

and then I went through school like that.

And a lot of good happened.

A lot of good happened, from
the, from that part of my life.

And I thought I was really close
to God, but I didn't have Jesus.

Jesus was the one to me at that
point, I had opened up to Jesus as a

philosopher, as a, a teacher, right?

The one way that we're not supposed
to look at Jesus, I was open to that.

And so people get cherry pick and
talk about Jesus and Oh, that's nice.

that's great.

if that helps you get closer to
your truth, I didn't know him

I was getting closer to God.

And I believe that now looking back,
I believe God works through our lives.

Even when we're not a believer,
even when we don't have faith,

he's working in bringing us closer

Jesse: he's drawing you.

Clay: They're drawing you.

Jesse: Yeah.

Clay: What happened was I got involved
in dating my wife, my now wife.

Everything was going great.

I hear it is this beautiful woman now and
I'm like, oh wow, this is really working

I'm gonna keep going to the universe like
you keep you know, lucky number seven.

Just

Jesse: You manifested
that beautiful woman.

Clay: exactly.

I manifested right?

I literally felt like that because
I prayed on a shooting star that

she was a shooting star and it's

Things go well.

And then Casey's involved
in all this stuff.

And so we're clicking on this level, and
then one day Casey just stops everything

and everything.

We talked about everything
that we were connecting on.

She just wasn't doing it anymore.

And then if, a couple of days later, a
week later, she says, I'm a Christian

and I was like, jaw hit the floor.

I, okay.

What?

Okay.

do you want to go do this?

Like tarot thing real quick?

And she's I don't do that anymore.

So all of a sudden, and
I really love Casey.

And it's the best thing that's happened
to me in my life up until that point.

And automatically, almost automatically,
I was like, I can't do that.

I don't believe in Jesus.

She's, I don't believe
that he, Are you serious?

Like I believe some crazy stuff about
rocks and crystals and spirit guides

and all this and reincarnations, but to
actually believe in Jesus, that was the

most thing I could not believe, right?

To believe in the Bible and Jesus
was like, no, I just can't go there.

So we started clashing

at the same time.

I got fired from my internship
that I was doing because I was

doing school long distance.

And I had gotten an internship for
the last part of my school at this

place in local mental health place.

And I had work, was working there.

And right about that time, they,
I was doing They had told me not

to do this stuff with what is it?

What is it called when
people look at the stars?

Jesse: Astrology?

Clay: yeah, yeah, They told
me don't do that at this job.

And I didn't listen.

I was doing whatever I want to do.

And I was doing this astrology thing and
someone complained and all of a sudden I

got fired on the spot from my internship.

At the same time, Casey, I got fired.

Was like, I don't do any
of that stuff anymore.

All that stuff that we were doing with
the universe and the manifestations

and all that, I don't do that anymore.

I don't do any crystals.

All that has gone out of my life.

I love you, but I'm not
doing any of that anymore.

and that was like a huge hit to me.

And then I got fired for doing
astrology stuff on the spot.

They were like, clean out your office.

You're done.

And I was like, what about my school?

And they were like, you're done.

So all of a sudden my school, they
were, I told my, I had to tell

my school what happened and they
were like, you can't graduate.

I was like months from
finally graduating this long.

like, sorry, you gotta
start all over again.

And by then I was a hundred something
thousand dollars in debt from going to

school to this school, which all seemed
like it was going to be for nothing.

And then.

So all of a sudden, in a
week, I lost everything

and the manifestations train
came screeching to a halt and my

little alignment with the universe
had been knocked off somehow.

And I was lost.

I was dark.

I started that emptiness came up,
everything came up again, and it came

time for me to go out and graduate.

And there was a possibility that
I maybe would be able to graduate

because someone at this internship
was felt bad for me and they.

Because I had done enough hours and they
were like, basically they said that they

weren't going to sign the papers, but
this one lady said, look, I'll sign it.

I know you did the hours, so
I'll sign it that you did it.

So there was a hail Mary chance, like
this, that these papers would be accepted

and I would get, I would graduate.

So I got on a plane to Colorado
to graduate and get my master's.

And right before I left, Casey was
like, I don't think we can do this.

Like we can't be together.

This isn't going to work.

We don't, I just felt like it's not
going to work with her because I

don't believe in Jesus and the Bible.

So I felt like I lost her.

And then I felt like I was lost my school.

and I left for Colorado

the day before I was supposed to graduate.

Out of just depression and sadness,
I wandered up into the mountains

and all the way there, Casey had
sent me a playlist of worship music.

She was like, listen, this one meat song.

And I was like, okay.

I was like, no, I don't
want to listen to this.

But then I finally just
let it into my heart.

I was like, okay.

maybe we won't be together, maybe not,
but I'll listen to this music and it

was a playlist of worship music, put
the worship music on, put it in my

earbuds, start walking up the mountain
aimlessly, just pondering how my life

had just gone from great to not to like
black hole again, somewhat suicidal

even thinking, and the playlist, the
music just starts coming in my ears.

and I'm just like feeling moved,
like I want to cry, but I'm

not, and I just keep walking.

I'm not really listening to the music,
but I'm looking around at nature.

It's a beautiful day.

And I somewhere, somehow I end
up at this pond still completely

still no one around on the very
far side of the pond is a bench.

One bench I didn't know where is
in the middle of the mountains.

There's nobody around There's a pond
completely still and on the other side

of the pond is a bench No one's sitting
there and I said I gotta go sit there

so I walk all the way
around and then sit there

and I just Ask God I say God
if you're there If you're

real, I don't believe in you,

but can you help me believe?

I don't know what to do, but I don't
want to, I don't think I want to

be here anymore on this earth And
on the water, I just saw Jesus.

Out in the middle of the
water, but he wasn't coming.

He was, he was there and I, my
heart just felt electric and I start

like what's going on right now?

And I just remember like
Jesus saying, I'm here.

I've been waiting for you your
whole life, but you have to want me.

you have to let me in your heart.

and I look down and I'm just crying.

Like I've never cried before.

I'm just sobbing and sobbing.

And it's all coming out of me.

And I was like,

I, I believe in you.

I will open my heart.

And at that moment, I just felt
he just came closer and went

from, That into like into my heart

and I looked around and it was
nighttime and I was like, I went up

there at eight in the morning and
I don't even know what happened.

I don't know what happened.

I don't know how long that happened for.

And all I remember is this feeling
of like my heart just got like

from this like brittle, hard clump
of stone to just crack like that.

And he came in it was like that, similar
to that first feeling I told you about,

it was like that feeling, and I just
felt like he'd been, he's been waiting

for me to do that my whole life, all
this stuff, all this pretending, all

these drugs, all this trouble, all
these, running and hiding and fighting.

Feeling like not enough and so

so I accepted Jesus in my heart that day.

I literally did and I felt it Tangibly
and my life has never been the same since

then and he's been there since then he's
there right now and His Holy Spirit lives

inside of me and I believe On him and
that he died for me and he was resurrected

for me And that's all that matters now.

And that's what's that's what I
stand on now And so now I rest in

christ and I have my struggles.

Things like that

right there and there is the
fullness Of god and I wanted to

share a scripture to talk about
what my life's been like since then

Jesse: sure.

Clay: This is second Corinthians,
therefore having second Corinthians,

four, therefore having this ministry
by the mercy of God, we do not

lose heart, but we have renounced
disgraceful underhanded ways.

We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper
with God's word, but by open statement of

the truth, we would commend ourselves to
everyone's conscience in the sight of God.

And even if our gospel is
veiled, it is veiled to those

who are perishing in their case.

The God of this world has blinded the
minds of unbelievers to keep them from

seeing the light of the gospel of the
glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

For what we proclaim is not ourselves,
but Jesus Christ as Lord, ourselves

as your servants for Jesus sake.

For God who said, let light shine out
of darkness, has shown in our hearts to

give the light of the knowledge of the
glory of God to the face of Jesus Christ.

That's exactly what happened to me.

And it changed everything
about everything, Jesse.

And I know that we don't need these
things, but just so I can tell for the

listeners, that day, that night, by the
time it was night, I got back, there

was an email from my teacher, and he
said, I decided to let you graduate.

Because I feel that you
deserve to graduate.

So you're going to graduate.

So I didn't think I was
going to even graduate.

I thought I was, everything
was lost, but I felt like I got

everything because I got Jesus.

So I didn't even care at that point.

At that point, that was the most the
most floored I've ever been in my

whole life to have finally have Jesus
Christ and believe him in my heart.

I felt like I had gained the world.

I really did.

So I didn't point, I didn't even care.

I was like.

I didn't care about school, but I got
home, I got back and there was that

email all of a sudden, randomly, the
teacher just said, I feel like you should

graduate, so I'm going to sign your
paperwork, get ready to graduate tomorrow.

And in that moment, I knew
that I would marry Casey.

So I knew, I just knew, I was like, I'm
going home, I'm getting a ring and we're

going to get married like that day.

Like I am going to go marry that woman.

I have Jesus.

Now, and that's what I did.

I saw, I walked across the stage and
I went home and I married my wife and

my life has never been the same since.

Jesse: Let me ask you a question.

I've heard you say, several times that
all your life you have, you were trying to

fill this emptiness, with various things,
All your activities and drugs and moving

around and philosophy and all that stuff.

And that hunger, that emptiness
remained until, until he came in.

Am I getting it?

Yeah.

Clay: It did.

It did.

And it does.

And it is the, it's the best thing I've
ever, Jesus is a real and living and alive

and it's the gospel and the scripture
I've encountered nothing like it.

It's real.

It's practical.

It's effective.

And it never lets me down.

It hasn't let me down.

I tried so many things.

I tried, I tried so many things
and there is nothing like this.

And I feel that I came close to God, but
I could never find him without Jesus.

and I never really could
get God until I got Jesus.

And in order to do that, I
had to let him in my heart.

It's I don't know if you've ever
rescued an animal or something,

like a wet cat or something, and
they just Fight and scratch and and

you're like, I'm trying to help you.

And I think that's what God
did for me most of my life.

And most of my life I was
scratching and then finally I just

didn't have any more fight left.

Jesse: That's a great image.

I want to hear so much more, but that's
why we decided to do a third podcast

with you and Casey together, and I
want to hear what happened after y'all

got back together, y'all got married.

I want to hear that.

Clay: Yeah.

We can't wait to tell, and I'm
sure that listeners will be sick

of us by then, but that's okay.

it's a true story.

Jesse: Let me just ask you, If there's
one little bit of advice that you

could give to somebody out there,
who's like you, who is searching in all

the wrong places, what would you say?

Clay: Don't kill yourself.

Don't do it.

just turn just a fraction.

If you just open your heart just
a tiny bit, I know you're hurting,

and I know you don't see any hope.

If you just turn a little bit and
forget yourself for just a second.

and suspend your disbelief,
you'll be amazed.

Jesse: It's all about belief, isn't it?

I liked the way that you asked Jesus.

To give you belief.

To help you believe.

I like that.

Clay: huh.

I still do.

I still do that.

I still say that prayer.

Because, if we could get into this
more, I think that what happened that

day was I finally stopped fighting God.

And instead of fighting
God, now I just fight God.

The enemy, but my fight got a
lot more concise, so it got the

basically the real fight started,

and so that's what I look at that as
I finally didn't need done didn't need

to fight anymore with God or question
him then that just leaves the devil so

so things get the Christian walk is.

difficult and without fellowship and the
unity of the church and being in scripture

constantly where I'm at in my Christian
walk it makes Everything else, everything,

all the other stuff I've went through, it
makes it look like a sandbox child's play.

but I'm grateful today, Jesse,
that I don't have to fight.

I don't need to fight with God anymore.

I can just obey him.

I have a father who loves me an
earthly one and a heavenly one.

And his commands are right.

And what I've found is by
following them, I get the best.

That I could possibly get by
just believing in the gospel

and doing what he commands me to do.

It frees me up to be, to glorify him
because in the end, it's not about

God giving, fulfilling my desires.

or my felt needs or giving me a wife
or any, it's not about any of that.

It's just that I can now glorify him.

And if you, if we can I
wrap up with a prayer?

Jesse: That's what I was just getting
ready to ask you to do, so let's do that.

Clay: this is a prayer that it comes from.

Ephesians 3 and it's Paul's a prayer
that Paul prays in Ephesians 3 and

I want to pray this over you and
me and everybody listening right

now and everybody in the world.

And for this reason, I bow my knees
before the father from whom every family

in heaven and on earth is named that
according to the riches of his glory,

he may grant you to be strengthened with
power through his spirit in your inner

being so that Christ may dwell in your
hearts through faith that you being rooted

and grounded in love may have strength
to comprehend with all the saints.

What is the breadth and length and height
and depth and to know the love of Christ

that surpasses knowledge that you may
be filled with all the fullness of God.

In Jesus name, Amen.

Jesse: Amen.

So stay tuned for the third part of this
story when I get Clay and Casey together.

So thank you, Clay.

We hope you've been
blessed by today's story.

In case you haven't noticed, there
are no advertisements on this podcast,

and we hope to keep it that way.

So if you've heard something that you
think could help someone you know, please

share it using the link in the show notes.

Also, if you will give Faith and Purpose a
positive review on your podcast platform,

you could help more people find it.

You will probably never know how
that small effort can make a big

difference in someone's life.

But our heavenly father knows.

Speaking of sharing, if you know a Jesus
follower with a story to tell, please send

them a link to Faith and Purpose Podcast.

It may encourage them to tell their story.

That person may even be you.

Our only criteria is
that Jesus be glorified.

Most Christians don't share their
faith because they mistakenly think

their story is not interesting enough
or that it's self centered to talk

about themselves or that they are not
competent to explain the gospel correctly.

But none of that is relevant.

If Jesus has changed your
life, you have a story to tell.

All of our stories are completely unique.

No one has a story like yours.

And you may be the only one
who can reach someone else

through telling your experience.

So don't be intimidated.

A story is just that, a true account
of your own experience, and no one

can disagree with your experience.

When we tell what Jesus has done in
our lives, we are being obedient to his

command to go into all the world and
preach the gospel to every creature.

It's not about theology, and it's not
about how interesting or special you are.

It's all about Jesus.

So when you're ready to tell how Jesus
has impacted your life, you can let Jesse

know at his ministry website, jesseduke.

net.

There you can download guidelines
that will make it easy to

prepare to tell your story.

Thank you for listening today and Shalom.