Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. This episode contains content about marriage and sex that might not be suitable for some younger listeners. Let's get into the episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Welcome back to The Debrief. I am here with the Millers. Glad to
Brad Miller:be here. Thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you guys did baptisms this last weekend?
Brad Miller:Yes. We did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. And someone made a special request. You wanna share what that is? Uh-oh. They don't they didn't know I was bringing this up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. No. No.
Brad Miller:Yeah. So the special request was if we would baptize a cat.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I said when you text me, did you
Brad Miller:do it? No. We did take the opportunity to instruct instruct a little bit about why it's important that people have a different place in God's heart. Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Miller:Not that cats aren't special, but the cat wouldn't want to be baptized. Yeah. So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I think you should have said you should have let her do it and just watch to see what happens.
Tammy Miller:Scratch
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:bars. My gosh. So we were joking about this. And if the person who wanted the cat baptized listens to the show, we love you, but that was a little funny. We were joking about it and we were like, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what if what if Brad baptized the cat and then we all get to heaven, and it's the only cat in heaven? And Of which is not what we believe about baptism, but but we came up with a name for the cat. Do wanna hear it?
Tammy Miller:Yes. I love it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The little lion of Judah. I thought it was so funny, man. He's the little lion of Judah.
Tammy Miller:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The kitty cat in heaven.
Brad Miller:This is her best story. She's just all
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:of us and this cat that Brad baptized.
Brad Miller:Just keeps getting better.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh my gosh. Like, we were howling last night.
Tammy Miller:Extra little crown in or jewel in his crown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wife said, please don't bring that up in the sermon. So I committed to that, but she didn't say anything about
Tammy Miller:the About the debrief.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Okay. So we are gonna be talking about some marriage issues. And when you guys roll in here, it always gets a little intense. Spicey.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's why
Brad Miller:I wore my my flame socks.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, he did. Oh gosh.
Brad Miller:Oh my It's gonna get hot. I got my
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:nose my no show socks on.
Brad Miller:Yeah. Because you're already hot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, I'm
Tammy Miller:not ready. Oh, wow. See that? He just complimented you. Should I step out?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. No.
Brad Miller:It's great. I was talking about temperature. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Yes. Yes. Temperature. But those for for those who are listening, whenever I'm preaching, I look for Brad because he's so peaceful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's interesting. I never can find you. I know. I'm looking for peace.
Brad Miller:Darn it. I'm still trying to teach her how to be peaceful. Yes. It's a work in progress.
Tammy Miller:Oh, wear my my gosh. White wig. Oh, I just won't color my hair anymore. You
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:don't have to share that. That's too real. Yeah. All the young people are laughing. You'll get there too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. You will. We go. Let's get serious. This is from Sandy in Riverside.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, this is a great question. So Sandy, thank you for this question. What advice would you give a couple who are both divorced and now dating for marriage? We have taken the pre marriage class with Sandals. Thank you, Sandy, for doing that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's so important for all of our listeners. You have no idea what you're doing when you get married, so take the class. We have taken the pre marriage class at Sandals. We serve and attend church together and are in our in our and are in community groups. We read the bible together and separate.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's I like that.
Tammy Miller:Good fam.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We pray together and separately. Wow. We are really doing all we know that is right to prepare for marriage. We both have adult kids from our previous marriages. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is there anything more you can advise us in our relationship?
Tammy Miller:Wow. Wow. That's a big one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't you wish we had about a thousand more of these couples?
Tammy Miller:I know. Know.
Brad Miller:Working that hard.
Tammy Miller:They are working
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:really hard. You go big t.
Tammy Miller:Oh, big t? Yes. Well, listen to that. Yes. Congratulations at first to doing so well with really spiritually growing together and being good examples for even your adult children.
Tammy Miller:I would just say just because of the field Brad and I come from for counseling and coaching is making sure that you are getting through the all the possible problems Mhmm. That were in your first marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:Making sure you've worked through that. Now, you may have, and that'd be great. But Brad and I always talk about how the problems that you have today started before you ever met. Mhmm. And so that probably existed in the previous marriage.
Tammy Miller:Mhmm. So just making sure that you work through that individually, and then having a counselor or a coach that you could go to throughout your marriage that you could just check-in when things get a little rocky, making sure old triggers or issues or past things that you didn't work through. And I would say, otherwise, it sounds like they're doing great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Man, that's fantastic. So I've heard you guys say, you know, that your marriage problem started before you got married. And I was listening to a therapist on TikTok the other day, and he said, the reason that many marriage problems don't get solved is they're not marriage problems. They're single problems that you haven't dealt with.
Tammy Miller:Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so you've brought this into marriage and you're asking and expecting your spouse to deal with something you haven't dealt with and haven't processed and worked through. And I thought that was just really freeing to say, okay. These are some single issues that I have and it's affecting my marriage Yeah. Life.
Brad Miller:So The way that we build on that is we talk about that those things, those problems started before you ever got married Yeah. And being married just exposes those.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Miller:Absolutely. So a lot of times people want to run from those problems, but once they're exposed, we're we're encouraging people to press in and work through them. Mhmm. It's an opportunity for closeness, for oneness. I love what Sandy and her guy are doing, I think it's great.
Brad Miller:I would say in addition to what Tammy said, don't ever stop working on it because the you know, a problem we see often is people in the beginning of marriage are gung ho and they're all in and we're working hard on it and then it's the career and then it's the golf game and then it's the you know, it's always something else. Don't ever stop working on your marriage. That's so important. And again, just back to what Tammy said quickly and you mentioned it as well. We all have stuff that can be worked on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Brad Miller:You know, was trying to think this through kinda like a worst case scenario. Let's say the previous spouses that they were married to had affairs, and you think, well, that has nothing to do with me. Yeah. But there's still something to be learned there as in once that relationship started to break down
Tammy Miller:Mhmm.
Brad Miller:And there there was maybe signs or things that were missed, those are things that you would want to know for the future so that you cannot miss those again. So there's always something to be worked on, and that's why we would say keep working on it, stay plugged in, don't let your guard down. Marriage is so important, and we just can't let our guard down.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I mean, think that's the thing for any single person out there that I would say is the most surprising thing for me for marriage, is I had no idea how much work it would be to maintain a relationship. I think we we in our culture, we use the language we fell in love. Yeah. Well, but you have to stay in love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and how do you work at that and communication and, you know, dating is so self focused. Right? It's just me and you. Sorry. I'm looking at
Brad Miller:you. And I feel good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's the fire socks.
Brad Miller:Yeah. Works every But
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:but when you get married, now it's me, you and the bills. It's me, you, and the refrigerator broke. Then it's me, you, and the kid. Then it's me, you, and the kids. Like and so you're what you're doing is you're adding complexity to the relationship.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's what I don't think people think is, there's just this lie in our culture that we can keep adding without talking and changing. And so, you know, I remember when our kids were little, you know, we we we are church people and that's no I'm not putting anybody down out there, but for us travel ball wasn't that's that's not that's not happening because the weekends for us are God. And so my wife would always, you know, go out to lunch with somebody and oh, know, their their kids are in piano. I'm like, great. What do you want to eliminate for us to do that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because there's only so much there's only so much time, and so we have to and that's hard to to let go of something, but I just would say with marriage as things grow, and so I think they're doing great right now. But as when they get married, they're adding complexity. There's a new level of relationship and so, okay. What do we have to change? What do we have to talk about?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What do we have to eliminate? You know, who wrote the book Relentless Elimination of Worry?
Brad Miller:John Mark Comer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:John Mark Comer. Yeah. And so I I think the the great point of that book is just we constantly have to work hard to eliminate things. And we're actually doing a series, this podcast comes out in August. We're starting a series called Home And and and one of the things I'm talking about in that series is eliminating things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. You know, if you just think about the average couple, they have way too much crap in their garage. Well, that's actually a picture of our life and our culture. And what is it that we need to get rid of? And, you know, during COVID, we completely cleaned our garage three times.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because it just keeps you just keep piling stuff on. And nowadays with Amazon, you don't even realize Right. How much clutter is in your life. And so you can lose your relationship with all that clutter and how do we we find each other in that. So I would just say, and you guys, you know, you can comment on this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I would just say great job. Continue to press together and don't be surprised if you're surprised when you get married. Because I think that the the lull here can be as we've we know everything, done everything, we're ready for everything.
Tammy Miller:We're good. We're good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? So they might be. I'm not trying to scare you, Sandy. I would just say, I've been married to my wife for twenty eight years now and she still surprises me, you know, with how she thinks and the conclusion that she comes to and the the meaning that she attaches to my decisions. And I'm just like, wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and I she says that's what makes our relationship spicy is it's a new woman every day. But I'm like, you know, so I've been with the same woman for twenty eight years and I'm surprised. So I would say with you guys is leave room for surprise.
Brad Miller:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and that's okay. So any other thoughts?
Brad Miller:Couple things really quick. One is you talked about falling in love. I would call that infatuation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Miller:It's it's really a different thing. Yeah. And choosing to continue in love Right. Is a lot different than falling in love or infatuation. We also cleaned our garage.
Brad Miller:Wow. That's a that's a mind blowing experience for sure. Yeah.
Tammy Miller:I would probably just add that when you are what Brad and I talked about being exposed, like the problems that enter your life Mhmm. Don't add the what's inside of you that's coming out, those feelings that actually exposes what's already there Yeah. In your relationship. Mhmm. And so continuing to look at that as like, wow, don't blame each other.
Tammy Miller:Don't blame shift. Like, that's how you learn to to just grow together, overcome things together, to take ownership, and work through the things that you need to work through.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. So are you guys familiar with attachment theory? Absolutely. So I'm a dismissive avoidant.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Those are my superpowers, which means I run quickly away from problems.
Brad Miller:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, as I pressed into that, Sandy, I discovered that that's that that's the adaptation that I incurred as a child because I felt like I had to meet my own needs, had to take care of myself, I had to rely on myself, and that's why a lot of people like me are very successful, pour themselves into work because that's something mechanical that I can do and it's not intimate that's painful. And so, you know, Tammy would say early on in our marriage that, you know, people would ask me how's the marriage great? And she said, do you guys remember you guys are old enough to remember when people got married, they put cans behind the cars. And so and for those who who don't know, you would take like Pepsi cans or Coors cans or depending on, you know, your your moral compass.
Brad Miller:Whatever your jam was.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Whatever your jam was. And then she said, I feel like you're in the car driving and me and the kids are the cans in the Wow. We're being dragged along. We're with you, but we're being dragged.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, so my professional pacing has always been a problem for people close to me. Like today's my day off. We're in here doing this. I was at Lake Paris. I was in the water at 6AM.
Tammy Miller:Oh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. We were gonna surf this morning, but there's no surf. So we went to Lake Paris foiling. We me and my buddy from Sandals, we're the only two people on the lake.
Tammy Miller:So That's
Brad Miller:a good day. Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So it was a little concerning though because somebody drowned this weekend and I didn't wanna hit a bump, you know, like while I'm cruising through there.
Brad Miller:I know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That would wreck the day.
Tammy Miller:You think?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that was a little morbid. But Yeah.
Brad Miller:You'd come out you'd come out of that with a good story though.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. You would. Well, that's what I thought. I'm like, of all the people
Brad Miller:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know who's running over the body. It's gonna be me.
Tammy Miller:Because it's gotta be a stage story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I didn't. Yes. Yeah. I did have a fish or a bird drop a fish on me. Like it it it it caught the fish and then saw me flying on the foil and it dropped the fish on me.
Brad Miller:And if that was a sign from God, what would that mean?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He loves me. Okay. Alright. This is from Annie Moss, and you know what that means. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is gonna be a difficult question. Can you guys hear them okay, or do need mics closer? Okay. Alright. What should sex look like inside of marriage?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. I always hear about this is a great question.
Tammy Miller:I thought so.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I always hear about waiting for marriage, but very little on what sex looks like within marriage. Annie, you are preaching. Mhmm. Is watching porn together okay? What is too far in consensual sex?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like toys, style of sex, etcetera. Now Annie, the etcetera word is not helpful, but everything else is very very specific. And so I don't know I'm looking at you Tammy. I feel like you always get the tough questions.
Brad Miller:I'll take
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it. Yeah.
Brad Miller:Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let's start with you.
Brad Miller:It's a great question. Yeah. And and what I think we all love about a question like that is we know
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:There's a lot of people that wanna ask that question. So Annie Moss, thank you for asking that. I think it's interesting. I don't think we do a very good job in Christian circles understanding what God intended for intimacy Yeah. Physical intimacy, sex, and marriage.
Brad Miller:So we typically like to start from the place of what did God intend? You know, you were talking about love a month or two ago. What does love mean? We talk about marriage. What did God intend for marriage?
Brad Miller:What does it mean? Those questions are very important. So what what did God intend for physical intimacy? And every time we've studied that, looked into that, pressed really hard into that, I think the answer is for deep and lifelong abiding connection. Yeah.
Brad Miller:So that's the purpose for physical intimacy. Mhmm. So now instead of approaching it from a standpoint of what's permissible, which is another way of saying The rules. What what can I get away with? What are the rules so I know I can push right up to that line?
Brad Miller:Right. And it's not so much about rules, but it really is about that intimate, deep, abiding connection that God allows, not allows, God intended for a husband and wife, like, start there. So so if we start there, then the question about porn says, why would you invite somebody else into your bedroom? Yeah. Why why would you do that when God intended that as intimacy between a husband and a wife only?
Brad Miller:Yeah. Things like like toys, you know, there's a whole we could go down a whole rabbit trail with that. Yeah. But is is that adding to or taking away Right. From physical intimacy?
Brad Miller:Yeah. Another interesting thing is Tammy in the past has actually worked with some previous swingers.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:Yeah. In a professional Yeah. You know? And an interesting thing in the swinger culture is is the one rule is you can't do face to face. You can't kiss.
Brad Miller:Oh. Guess what humans do in intimacy? There's we get to be face to face, which promotes that connection, which promotes that intimacy, which promotes that oneness. So then you start thinking about some of these other things that that get in the way of that. Mhmm.
Brad Miller:So I don't know. I guess the way I would want to sum that up is sometimes we get so we get so focused on the orgasm Yeah. That we we focus on that and lose sight of the relational piece, which is the most important piece. Yeah. So you probably got a lot you wanna add
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:to that. Well, I'm gonna go then you go. So let let's parse this and what what that means is I'm gonna I'm gonna kinda chop up. Sorry. That's a biblical research word parse when you parse a sentence or a word you you take it apart, you know.
Brad Miller:One piece at a time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. One piece at a time. Thank you for helping me. Explain that to the layman. I always hear about waiting for marriage, but very little on what sex looks like within their marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would say, Annie, that's because, man, if if you put 10 pastors up on a panel and you ask them what was acceptable within marriage, I don't think that you're going to find agreement. There might be some things where, you know, they they say, yeah, yeah, that's off limits. But in terms of agreement on what is okay, it really really varies. And so so that's the challenge. You know, it's like why aren't there a lot of Christian books on second marriage?
Tammy Miller:Yeah. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. Well, the problem is the second marriage. And I know that our first question, that is your second marriage. That's the issue. It's pastors are so afraid of, hey, we're condoning this because the Bible says what God has joined together, let no man tear apart.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so you just don't get a lot of of help on this issue. So what I would say is, you know, sex is a reflection of the emotional, physical, and spiritual health of the marriage. So if you're if you're connecting on those levels, sex is gonna be great. If you're not connecting emotionally, physically, and what I mean by physically is the work the the physical work of trash, you know, like real life stuff. And then did I say emotional spiritual?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The spiritual side, are you praying together? Are you connecting together? I liked what the gal said, we're reading our Bibles together and separately. We're praying together and separately. Like, that's intimacy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's important. So so that's the issue. So is porn watching is porn is watching porn together okay? I would say no. And again, you might be able to YouTube and find somebody that disagrees with me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's why I would say it's no. It's because it doesn't matter what anyone else does. What matters is sex is the time between just you two and it's the most private thing you do. You know, like even if children are in the home. How do we create children?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're a product of sex. We don't invite children into the bedroom. Like you close the door, this is something that mom and dad do. You know, children, you know, they're excluded from that. And so even within the intimacy of family, this is a unique thing that we do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so pornography is saying, really what it's saying is either I have a hard time being aroused or I have a hard time being aroused by you. And I don't know what that issue is. So I need arousal from something else, multiple women, multiple men, whatever it is, something kinky, bizarre. And what you really need to say is, how can we be aroused by each other? And then I would go back to the physical intimacy, the spiritual intimacy, the emotional intimacy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How are we connecting? And we talked about that you guys haven't heard the message this week, but having a conversation about erectile dysfunction, it's a real issue. A lot of guys struggle with it. And and being able to have that conversation and say, like if you're the guy, look, I'm struggling with arousal. And for all of our ladies out there, you can have sex and not be aroused.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's unfortunately, you know, I've experienced that. It's not great. But but sometimes that happens, but a guy cannot. Like a guy cannot produce an erection if he's not aroused. And so and that could be age, it could be depression, anxiety, it could be it could be a whole host of things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So rather than saying, hey, let's look at porn. I would say, hey, let's have a conversation.
Tammy Miller:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let's talk about what's going on here.
Brad Miller:Do the hard work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Do the hard work rather than the easy work. And and so what is pornography? Right? That's the easy work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I can click on to multiple websites until I find, you know, whatever it is that I'm looking for, whatever that is arouses me that ultimately divorces me of the intent of sex, which is intimacy. So so it's porn. What's too far in consensual sex? Do you wanna jump in or you want me to keep going? Because I can talk forever.
Tammy Miller:Right. Right. Great answers, both of you, actually. Thank you. And what I would add to it is just the idea of inviting porn and toys.
Tammy Miller:Yeah. You know, all all the different things she listed, they listed in that, then you're just saying, now we need to take it to another level. We have a need to take it to another level. Now it needs to get another level because eventually that'll become boring.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And now you've completely lost sight of God's intent
Brad Miller:Mhmm.
Tammy Miller:For marriage and and the the bedroom and the bed and the oneness, the breath to breath, eye to eye, mouth to mouth. Mhmm. And now it's it's you've completely lost sight of that. And actually, just ask your spouse or ask yourself, how many times do we actually kiss Yeah. When we're making love?
Tammy Miller:Yeah. Yeah. So many couples will stop and say, I don't know. Don't even know if we do anymore because it becomes all about the act and the arousal Yeah. And up and up and losing the intimacy.
Tammy Miller:So that would be my concern is that if you keep adding things to it, you need to keep spicing it up. I'm not against spicing up the bedroom at all. It's just you gotta be careful how that's done.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So this is a true story. I have not shared this with you guys, but I had a security guard on our security team years ago. He doesn't tend sandals anymore, so I'm gonna out him. But he kept he kept like like grabbing his penis.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, like when a guy adjusts? And I'm always like, okay. You can do that once, bro, but you do it twice. We could have a conversation.
Tammy Miller:Like a five year old boy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. What is going on?
Brad Miller:Don't do it in public. Don't do it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he's in the back with me. I'm getting ready to preach and he's adjusting. Oh, He's adjusting. And each and I'm like, what is wrong with you? And he literally goes, he goes, I got my penis pierced.
Tammy Miller:Oh. And he goes, and I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:think it's infected. And and he goes he goes, you wanna take a look? I go, yeah.
Tammy Miller:Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I looked at it and I went, bro, that's infected me. I was like, you need to leave church right now and go to the doctor. I asked him, I was like, this is the early days of sandals. I'm like, why why would you do that? And this is what he said, to spice up our sex life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And let me say this to every couple. God has already included all the parts Yeah. That are necessary for a great sex life. You don't need to add anything else. And, you know, it just it just creates problems and challenges, and that's a real story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's the early days of sandals where I just said what was ever But on my he was my friend and he clearly wasn't okay. And I mean he he could have lost his penis like Yeah. Like the infection was so bad because, right, it's sterile. And I was like, bro, I got my ears pierced when I was like 18 and I know what that infection feels like. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I learned my lesson. I don't wanna poke holes in other things. But that was just him saying and again, what I think his marriage was missing and he was married was intimacy. So what they thought was we need more arousal. And what I would say is no, you need more intimacy and that's where you need to press into.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'm not a big fan of of toys, you know, style of sex. Think it's conversations. And so here's where, you know, again, here's why I don't like pornography. So I had viewed pornography from about 10 years old to about 21 years old is when I, you know, my wife hadn't. So I have all these thousands of images Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Of positions, of styles, and and here's the thing is, all of those girls that were saying that things were pleasurable in porn, none of it was true.
Tammy Miller:No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Years ago, we had a ministry, I talked about this in my book, JC's girls, I was sitting in a room like this with a couple porn stars. And I just asked the girls. I was like, do you enjoy this? You know, was vigorous angry, you know, choking mean stuff. And they said, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We get paid more for it. And I said so wait, so you don't like that and to to a woman. No, it's awful. Yeah. But we make double the money and I just thought so guys, like, you gotta remember those women are being paid or they're they've got other issues and, you know, any sex that is violent, that is that is the act absolute opposite of what God intended.
Brad Miller:And then it just perpetuates.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Yeah. And so so it becomes a huge problem. And so what I would say, you know, what is too far in consensual sex, you know, that depends upon is there abuse? Like, you know, so I might say oral sex is great, but if your spouse has been abused and oral sex is painful or it brings up memories or Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It makes them feel unsafe, then I would say that's that's too far. You know, I said this in the sermon last week that, you know, you guys haven't got a chance to listen to it, but I said sex is meant to be oh, I wish I had the point in front of me. Basically, it's mutually enjoyable.
Brad Miller:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's it. What what what do both partners feel safe with and loved by with? And and and soon as you go outside of that, I think that's a real problem.
Brad Miller:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and you need to have and let me just say this to all the men. Whatever the guys are talking about they're doing at work, they're prob most of them are lying. Like they're not if there's one thing men are not honest about, it's their sex lives. Mhmm. And so don't bring the locker room talk home into your bedroom, but try to connect, you know, and again, try to focus on making love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm not saying it can't be enthusiastic or athletic, I'm gonna use those words. But but remember, you know, you're making love to a woman, and so what that means guys is it's not two dudes. So like you you you you have a woman there and and you need to be pleasing her and and making sure she's okay. And ladies, you know, you're you're not make love to a woman, you're making love to a man. What is pleasing to him?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And having those conversations and and again, love does not demand its own way. And so that's our Love Is series that we had that's so so important. But I would say talk about that. You know, I think things that are healthy issues are frequency, intensity, you know, the face to face, the kissing, I I feel like we're not connected. And guys, again, that's why I I'm a big big anti porn guy because when you watch porn and you reach orgasm, you have to go to another place Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In order to do that. And and so what happens in the bedroom is you have to go to another place to reach orgasm, and you're not able to be face to face with your spouse. And so that's why I don't I don't like it, and you know, I mean, there's there's a lot of things to not like about it. But what I tell my son is a lot of the young men in our church that, you know, are addicted to porn, and I you and I, we didn't grow up with cell phones. We didn't grow up with the access
Tammy Miller:The crack cocaine
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:of porn. The average 12 year old today has more access to sex than King Solomon. Like Mind blowing. Mind blowing. Mind blowing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And and how did Solomon's life end up? Yeah. Like, it's a total disaster and just just absolutely destroyed not only him, but the nation of Israel and his family. And so we we need to we need to learn that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, when I grew up in church, you know, Solomon was always his hero. And then as I became a pastor, I went, this guy's a mess. Yeah. You know?
Brad Miller:Yeah. He's a wreck.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Even though he was wise, whatever that means, he he was a mess. So any more comments?
Brad Miller:Yeah. Yeah. Just a couple things. One thing I would want to really impress upon men, any men listening to this is is the word tenderness. Yes.
Brad Miller:Because guys don't do that well Yeah. And when we talk about physical intimacy, sex, tenderness. Yes. It's not about the stuff you've seen in porn Yeah. Which brings up the other issue.
Brad Miller:I have did you ever see the Men in Black movies? Yes. They had a little they had a little device, think it was called a neuralyzer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:Do you remember that? Yeah. Do you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:remember what it did? Yeah. Wiped out
Brad Miller:your memory. Wiped out your memory. Like in the church, if we could get some neuralyzers and guys that have viewed porn in the past, wipe them out so that they start from square one and figure out what God intended instead of always trying to match that somehow in their married life. Mhmm. Because you can't.
Brad Miller:Yeah. It's totally different. So we need to do that. We need to invent neuralizers.
Tammy Miller:Well, I think what I'm gonna just go with what you just said. By looking at porn
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:You're actually wiping out what God intended. Mhmm. Losing sight of that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. And and again, you know, I'm not saying this is the gospel. You know, the apostle Paul in first Corinthians seven when he's asked about sex, he he he gives his opinion, which a lot of us have a hard time with that. And he's not saying this is from the Lord, but he actually says, he says, this is what I think.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so let me just say this. My answer to this question is I'm not saying this is from the Lord. These are these are the thoughts that I have. I'm not a fan of toys just because I think it's a it's it's a distraction from us Mhmm. Connecting together.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's not to make anybody feel guilty or terrible who involves those things in in their marriage bedroom. I'm just saying, you know, for Tammy and I, intimacy is a challenge. And so so we wanna work towards coming together with nothing in between us. Yes. And I want all the affection that shared sexually to be between me and her and nothing else.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That that's just my opinion and I might be old fashioned, but that's that that's just me. And so I'm not a big fan of that. And again, let me say, all the toys needed for intercourse, God put on your body.
Tammy Miller:I like it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There you go.
Tammy Miller:Well, think about if you spent all your time researching new toys Yeah. Versus reading about how to connect with your spouse.
Brad Miller:Yeah. And by the way, if you spend time researching toys, you're gonna come across some stuff that's gonna mess up as well.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, yeah.
Tammy Miller:Don't type I that
Brad Miller:remember one time I was gonna
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:get Tammy an outfit for laundry, and I was like five minutes into it. I'm like, okay, this is a bad idea.
Brad Miller:Can't do this. Can't do this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What am I doing? You know?
Brad Miller:Now I'm tapping out. Yeah. By the way, think it's it's interesting to note that one of the reasons I think God intended that oneness Yeah. Through sex or physical intimacy is because we need it to do life together.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. We need
Brad Miller:it to raise kids together. Yeah. We need it to preach the gospel together. We need it for all of those things. So not only is it is it you God's way of of creating kids Mhmm.
Brad Miller:But it's actually part of God's way of learning how to manage kids. We really need that oneness. We talk all the time to to parents that just need to come together and be one, and you know, sometimes we wanna say, gosh, you guys just you need a weekend alone Yeah. And bring that oneness back together, get on the same page. Not to be crass or or cavalier about it, but I I think that's true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. So let's go back to the one of one of the things I would say is make sure that you make time just to be lovers. I was actually listening to Tucker Carlson, and you know, he's been married to the same woman, he's extraordinarily famous. And he said he said, sometimes there are only things that can be solved in our marriage with a weekend away from the kids, butt naked in a hotel room.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He said, making love and talking about real issues. Wow. So it wasn't just a sex romp. It was
Brad Miller:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, we need to we need to get face to face and connect because the business of marriage, you know, people are always like, the church is a business. I'm like, yeah.
Tammy Miller:It is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Life is a business. Paying anybody that pays a bill, business. And so you got you've got to work on on coming together and and really talking about those issues and not being afraid. You know, I think the worst time to talk about things is a fight.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The best time to talk about things is, hey, tomorrow at five, I'd like to talk about these three things.
Tammy Miller:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Can you be thinking about that? Yeah. So alright. Jordan from Redlands. My husband asked for a divorce in November.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh man, I'm so sorry. Right. I've remained committed to saving our marriage and expressed the same to him. He has expressed no desire to do the same and has started dating someone new and has brought her around the kids. Yikes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He has stopped going to church and he is no longer taking the children. I've been praying for a miracle, but but how long do I hold on to a marriage when the other side has made it clear that he wants out? Mhmm. It's a tough one.
Tammy Miller:Oh, you guys are looking at that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Ready? Yeah. Roshambo.
Tammy Miller:Well, first, that's tragic.
Brad Miller:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And especially the part that really struck me is that he's
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:bringing the
Tammy Miller:girlfriend around the kids. That that hurts. Yeah. That's a lot. I would say that if you've been if you whatever God's calling her to do at this point Yeah.
Tammy Miller:Is that she want to hang on
Brad Miller:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:Then that's what she'll do. She wanna wait for him to say, I wanna divorce you? That's really what she needs to be thinking about. It's like, do I wanna be the one? Do I feel free Yeah.
Tammy Miller:From this? If you do, and you prayed about it, and you seek wise counsel in that, then then move forward. But you may be feeling like, no, I need to hang on. Yeah. Because there's miracles that could happen.
Tammy Miller:You never know. But so sorry.
Brad Miller:What's what's her name?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She's Sorry. It's Jordan.
Brad Miller:Jordan. Yeah. So, Jordan, I'm I'm sorry because that's a really really tough spot
Tammy Miller:to Thank be
Brad Miller:It is a really tough spot to be in. And I I want to say sincerely, Matt, I I was stretched a lot by your book, Everyday Miracle. Oh, thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and
Brad Miller:I think, you know, Jordan mentioned hoping for a miracle. Yeah. And I think sometimes we need to prepare ourselves for a miracle. Mhmm. You know, it's not us just sitting back and doing nothing and saying, okay God, it's all yours, you know, do do the miracle.
Brad Miller:We have to prepare ourselves for that and take steps, which doesn't take anything away from God. But I think in that season, Jordan, if you keep preparing for the miracle, be praying for yourself, getting whatever help you can to improve yourself, keep praying for your husband, pray that all of this glorifies God because that's the point the point with all of this anyway. But set yourself up for a miracle, and then, you know, there's there's the yes, you get a miracle, which is awesome. We love that. There's the no, which we don't like, and then there's the wait, which just feels like forever.
Brad Miller:Yeah. And and nobody can really decide, Jordan, outside of you if you how long is long enough or too long to wait for a miracle? I I don't know how to answer that. I really don't. But I would say if if you're looking for a miracle or hoping for one, set yourself up well
Tammy Miller:for share an encouraging story for her? Yeah. Brad and I actually have a couple mentors at the church that we're working with and training, and there's two different couples that actually divorced and remarried each other again and have these incredible stories. And it's it's that you just never know. And what is his rock bottom?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:What is his rock bottom? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I would say, Jordan, I think there are two issues. And so one is how long do you hold on for a miracle? And then two is when do you start to date? That's the thing I would say is the kids don't need this new woman in their life, and the kids don't need a new man in their life. And just because he's acting in a childish way doesn't mean that you need to act in a childish way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, messing up a kid's family and and and making it tumultuous or divided really affects children. It affects all children, and there's always, you know, people in our church. So I was raised by a single mom, and I turned out fine. Well, but you don't know how you have turned out had had they not gotten divorced. And so the data is 100, it affects kids in a negative way, and it's not good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Divorces that's why God hates it.
Tammy Miller:Generations affects. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Generations. And so so what I would say is as long as you hope for the marriage to be healed, I would say that's the Holy Spirit speaking through you to not give up hope. And so to try to be positive, and it's gonna be really really difficult. He's showing up, bringing this other woman around, you know. But one of the best ways to convict him is just with your attitude, and just, again, if if if you want this marriage to heal, and you're there's hope for you, I would say that's God speaking to you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. When there's a sense of, okay, this is done, and and your heart's moved on, then I would say, that's God speaking to you. But even then, I would say, go do the work, get in counseling, don't do what he did and jump from one relationship to another, because that just makes your issues more complex. Talk to a counselor, work through your issues, try to understand whatever your part was in the breakup of the marriage. A lot of times when I see a spouse cheating or leaving, I hear it's all them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I said, okay, that might be true. But usually both parties contributed to this and Contribution. Somehow and so even if it's 8020, let's figure out your 20% so that God willing, if there's another relationship out there for you, you don't take that brokenness into the next phase. And so Jordan, I'll be praying breaks for you. I'm so sorry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I hate it when guys do this. Mhmm. I don't like it when girls do it either, but I hate it when guys do it.
Brad Miller:There there is there is nothing that that will melt the heart of a wayward spouse more than somebody deeply and authentically exhibiting the love of Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:So just keep doing that Jordan. Keep doing
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:that. Alright. This is a tough one. I'll go first theologically and then maybe you guys can tackle it from a clinical perspective. So this is from anonymous in Moreno Valley.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is it a sin for a married person to masturbate if you are not watching porn? I am I am not doing it instead of being with my wife. She has medical issues where sex can be painful, and I have not watched porn for a few years. Let me just say this. Thank you so much for this question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, there is not a clear cut verse in the Bible on masturbation. Onan's sin has nothing to do with masturbation. And for those of you who don't know your Bibles, Onan is supposed to sleep with his his brother's wife because his brother has died. And in the ancient world, social security was children. So if you didn't have children and you were old, you died hungry and alone.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he was supposed to have sex with his brother's wife who had died and impregnate her with a child so that his name, not Onan's name, his brother's name could continue. And oftentimes I hear this because what he did is he had sex with her and then he pulls out. So he enjoys the fun part, but he doesn't do his duty of actually finishing the act. And this is really hard for us because it's culturally something thousands of years ago, and you're just like, oh my gosh. And so just let me help everybody out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Bible is what I call progressive revelation. So God calls us to a level of obedience to that which he has revealed. So even though father Abraham is Abraham, even though there's Isaac, there's Jacob, there's David, there's Solomon, they didn't have Jesus. Jesus is the perfected word of God revealed to us. And if you wanna know what God's like and what God wants, it is perfectly identified in Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we we learned from Jesus, look, okay, we're not doing that anymore. But culturally back then they had that. So other than that, there's really not something that identifies masturbation. And so we have to ask why is the Bible silent on this? It could be silent because sexual sin was so rampant in the ancient world.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, people had sex with their slaves, servants, they would go to religious institutions. So a lot of the worship in those days was, you know, you you don't masturbate in your home. You go to worship the pagan God and you have sex with the man or woman or transgender person. They had those back then, whatever your liking was, and you did that in a religious manner. So it was actually very, very different from our culture where that's what you do in Vegas.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In the ancient world, they actually did it in their church. And so that's what made Judaism and Christianity so different. It's like, no, no, no, guys. You don't have sex with a prostitute. You don't you you know, you have sex within the context of marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So there's a lot of guys that have a lot of talking about this. And what I would say is, I would have this conversation with your wife and just, you know, because it what is the medical reason? What is going on? Is there abuse? What has happened?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would just say as a husband, hey, I really wanna be intimate with you. This is really challenging for me. I'm not looking at porn. I'm not lusting after another woman. I'm longing to be with you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There you go. And I would say this is a conversation for you to have as a couple. And because she needs to know your desires, you know, are you hiding this from her? Is this a secret life that you have from her? Or are you bringing her in on this process?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, the purpose of sex is is to come together. And so I understand that there can be some pain there. But what I would say is get a sex therapist or therapist, you know, the Millers might be able to, in the show notes, direct you in the in the right way. But I would say have this conversation before we just say, is it right or is it wrong? I would say that the purpose of sex is connection.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. It's connection. Now that's easier for me to say as a 50 year old man, you know, I probably would had very different thoughts on this at 25. But as a 50 year old man, I can just say that that's not something that I do. It's something that, you know, I reserve for my wife.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But when I was younger, my sexual appetite was more than what my wife was. But I was not honest with her about what I was doing when she wasn't around. And so even though you're not looking at porn, that's great. I I don't want you looking at porn because there's no way you can look at porn and it not be a sin and masturbate. There's no way because you're lusting after someone else.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I would have a conversation with that. And I would just say the Bible doesn't specifically address it. And so for singles out there, you know, masturbation become addictive. It can become problematic, and so you wanna make sure that you're not a slave to that. And so so I, you know, is it a sin?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is it not a sin? I would say it's not good. And so that means it's probably it is a sin, but I don't want you to, you know, beat yourself up or, you know, feel like you're terrible if that's something that's happening. What are your guys' thoughts?
Brad Miller:You talked about being addictive. There is a phrase that's not often used, arousal addiction. Yeah. It is a real thing and it really is when you understand the chemicals present Yeah. Oxytocin, serotonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine.
Brad Miller:When you understand the chemicals involved in that release, it is addictive. Yeah. So again, this is not to shame anybody. This is just to kinda peel back the science of it. But again, Matt, you said it so well that that this is intended for oneness.
Brad Miller:Yeah. And if this is getting in the way of oneness, or somehow circumventing the the work needed for oneness, then it's then then there's room for some improvement. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I would just say there's there's hard conversations to be had here as a couple, and I think I think the wife needs to be able to say more than I'm having medical issues.
Tammy Miller:I agree.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like I would say, okay, what what what's going on here? Because most vaginas can receive penises. It's that's what they were made for. So if there's a pain issue, what's going on? What's happened?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is there trauma in the past? You know, like like talk to me about what's going on. And and I would say this to a lot of the single women out there. I I would say don't marry a man unless you're you're intending on being an active sexual participant in the marriage. I I counsel so many women where that just never crossed their minds and I'm like, we had this one guy, they had had sex like two times their first year.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I just sat the wife down and I just said, what what can you help me understand what you're thinking? And she said, yeah, I feel like we we we do it, you know, once or twice a year. I said, that's not gonna work. Like, your your expectations are way like grotesquely, you know, inappropriate in a in a negative way. And she's like, well, how often we should we be doing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I said once a week let's start there. You know and and and I know there's some guys that are hoping for more than that, but I was like let's start somewhere. Because what I told her is I said you're not loving your husband. Like this is you know
Brad Miller:Intended for oneness. Yes. If that's not happening Yes. They have a little bit of oneness twice You a
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know, and then there's some guys that think it should be every day or multiple times a day. I'm like, You're not a partner here. Yeah. This isn't just about your physical release. That's probably about your addiction.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so I would just say, let's have a conversation. Let's get in some therapy. Let's really work through this. Let me let me just encourage you. I'm glad you're not looking at porn, man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just so grateful for that. And for anyone out there who has struggled with sex addiction, masturbation is not okay. I it's just not. So like if you it's like if you're, you know, if you're an alcoholic, how many beers are are enough? Zero.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So if you have an addiction, masturbation should never happen because it just, you know, it it's just like Yeah. It can completely derail your sobriety. So that's the exception where I say, you know, look, if you're a sex addict or you battle sexual addiction, you know, zero thing in there. But, you know, I I don't like to have secrets from my wife. We talk about everything.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So and that's uncomfortable stuff including the issue of masturbation. We we talk about those things.
Tammy Miller:I would just add that we're forgetting that she's also missing out on pleasure herself and intimacy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And I like that you said they need to have a conversation. Because if if she's missing out on these things, she may just feel guilty. Yeah. And just say do whatever you need to do Yeah. But not pressing in and saying, hey, I wanna know how will you receive pleasure that doesn't include pain.
Tammy Miller:Yeah. And who knows? I don't know. It could be a pelvic floor issue. I'm not I'm not quite sure.
Brad Miller:But,
Tammy Miller:you know, if she relaxes more, I'm not a doctor. I'm just saying I've actually worked with couples that have experienced this as Mhmm. They're just coming together and how could she receive pleasure. It may not include an orgasm Yeah. But that connection in it, it seems like he this is where we're just going from the question that maybe he isn't taking enough time Yeah.
Tammy Miller:Yeah. Yeah. To check-in with her.
Brad Miller:And even having those, like Tammy said, having those hard conversations, they're difficult.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Brad Miller:Pressing into those difficult conversations actually presses them into that oneness piece Mhmm. Which is what physical intimacy is intended for in the first place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Brad Miller:So again, we all as humans, I'm avoidant as well by the way, my brother. Yes. Yes. Let's avoid together. Let's avoid together.
Brad Miller:We can be stronger. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:As we flee.
Brad Miller:It it is it is natural for many of us and easier for many of us to avoid what's difficult, but it's always an opportunity to press into something deeper and better. So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And and for all the guys out there, our arousal is instant and often. So women's arousal is is is is less often and it needs to be not always, but encouraged. Women receive. So in the sexual act, right, they receive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So they need to receive your love, your affection, your And so the more into it the woman is, you know, the vagina is gonna change. In the same way, you know, and I hate to the same way guys, our penises change when we're aroused. A woman's vagina changes when she's aroused, and it can make room for bigger things. That's just the reality. So I would say let's let's get into some therapy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let's talk about this. And I and I don't want to just be crass here, but guys, talk about lubrication. There are things that you can buy at Rite Aid and Walmart that can help this process. And a lot of Christians don't talk about this. You know, years ago, we there was a couple in our church, they were using like lotion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm like, that's I'm like, stop doing that. Right. And it's they didn't know. And so, you know, and just because you're embarrassed to go into Walgreens and say, you know, where's the k y jelly? Like, bro, get over it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You need to get in there. You know, I've bought tampons for my wife and girls, man. It's like, look, this is my role. You know, you need
Brad Miller:to I have a woman.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You need some potato chips and some tampons. Here we go. All three. I'll get it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I'm proud to be a dad of girls. I'm proud to be the husband of my wife. Whatever she needs, I'm gonna do. And that that just doesn't embarrass me, you know. And and a lot of people don't realize this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A lot of the times, the reason they lock up condoms is because people steal them because they're embarrassed to buy them. Wow. Yeah. I mean, you know.
Brad Miller:You brought up another important point too, which I think is foreplay. Yeah. So you know, guy Tell
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:me what foreplay is because I'm 25.
Brad Miller:It's it's between three play and five play. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're playing golf Did
Brad Miller:you get that? Yes. It's between three and five. Okay. Sorry.
Brad Miller:Foreplay is, you know, guys can get warmed up really quick. Yes. Women, it typically takes them a little bit more time. Yeah. Which would frustrate a lot of guys except that we can take that as an opportunity to deeply emotionally, physically, spiritually connect with our wives.
Brad Miller:So again, you were talking about the vagina's changing, penis is changing. That part of that happens through foreplay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:Give it some, you know, give things some time to warm up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:Which means don't start working on that five minutes before you're ready. Start working on it that morning or the day before or
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Brad Miller:All week for crying out loud. Yeah. But that's a that's a real thing too.
Tammy Miller:Yeah. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. And it takes work. Yes. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Absolutely. And I think that's one of the things guys that I found frustrating. And and and I don't mean this in a negative way, but some things that arouse my wife on Tuesday do not arouse her on Friday. And that I don't understand that, but Sorry. You know what?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's like, hey, we did this on Tuesday, and you don't like it on Friday. Right. We don't like it on Friday. But if you wanna have a good damn time on Friday, you do what Friday wants. So whatever that's the three play.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. That's We did four plays on Thursday.
Brad Miller:We do three play on Friday. Five plays coming. Five plays on Saturday.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'm just happy to play.
Tammy Miller:Yes. I'm happy to be the game. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so guys, look, it's frustrating. But again, here's the thing that just drives me crazy. We don't talk about this in our marriage. Let's let's have the conversation and not in a critical way to say, hey, I want to please you. I I I want to I want to satisfy you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I want to be wanted. How do I do that? How do I do that? And the porn stuff's all fake. It's all fake.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. So how do how do I how do I do that?
Brad Miller:We always say that I'm sorry. We always say that the the porn that gets sent to all of our email inboxes Yeah. Is actually some fat Russian guy that is not The paperwork. Is not at all the pictures that you're getting.
Tammy Miller:Yeah.
Brad Miller:Anyway, that's. Okay. This is
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:from Charisma. Oh, you wanted to go?
Tammy Miller:Oh, I was just gonna I forgot what I was gonna say.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm sorry. Something amazing. Yeah. Was incredible. It gonna change every man's
Brad Miller:life. Yes.
Tammy Miller:Actually, now I do remember.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, there we go. See There
Tammy Miller:we go.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My humor brought back.
Tammy Miller:Exactly. Brad and I will ask couples a lot of time, like, what is it that will let you help you to feel safe, especially to wives. And she'll say more things as far as the foreplay goes. Some will say a kiss on the forehead.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy Miller:Feels very tenderness, this safety Uh-huh. The coming up behind her and and just wrapping her arms or his arms around her.
Brad Miller:Yeah. I did that this morning. Yeah. I did. Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And men, they want to feel desired. Mhmm. You know? So women actually touch, you know, especially on the the back of the head and the and the neck, you know, that's actually very important to men. And so those are very tender ways to have the foreplay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I would say this too, guys. We're gonna go a little we're gonna go right up to the red line here. You know, because one of the issues for women is if a man finishes too soon. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so you need to have that conversation, you know, because there are other things that you can do to allow your wife to orgasm, you know, because a lot of guys struggle with premature ejaculation or it's just not they they can't hold it as long as they would like to. And you need to talk about that because if a woman gets discouraged, the woman, the wife gets discouraged, then then why would she wanna have sex if it's just all about you? So have that conversation so that it can be pleasing to both partners and and don't don't take it like critically, just say, okay, this is good feedback because I care about you and and and I, you know, this matters to me. And so I would just say that. So great
Brad Miller:great point. And again, think if the as disappointing as those moments can be, if all about orgasm, then it's a failure. Yeah. If it's about oneness, there's a way to recover.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I think the greatest compliment a husband can ever hear after sex is if a wife says, just felt like we were one.
Brad Miller:Mhmm.
Tammy Miller:I felt loved.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I like, we were just like, that that's a great compliment. So shoot for that one, guys.
Brad Miller:Mhmm. So Here it is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Carissa from Las Vegas. For the longest time, I prayed for my husband to find God. Recently, my husband made a mistake that hurt me deeply in our marriage. However, due to this mistake, my prayer was answered and he opened his heart to God. Unfortunately, now I find myself upset with God and I'm ashamed of it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:As silly as it sounds, I'm upset because my prayer was answered in a way that broke my heart. Wow. How should I move forward? Carissa, I don't know what your husband did, but God didn't do it. So Romans eight twenty eight, God causes all things to work for good for those who love him and call are called according to his purpose.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A lot of Christians read that and they say God causes all things. That's not what the verse says. God causes all things to do something. So the the purpose of that verse is what is God doing? No matter how bad someone does, God can take it, even the death of Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? He can make it spring into eternal life. And so God did not cause your husband to do this. Here's what I would say is God answered your prayer in spite of what your husband did. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's how good God is. And so we gotta get we gotta get really, really careful here that we don't blame God for people's sin. And so I'm sorry that your husband did this. I praise God that this opened his eyes and woke him up to God, but I am saddened that it hurt your heart. But we gotta be really really careful when we blame God for people's choices.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and let me just say this, Carissa, it might be easier for you to be mad at God than your husband. And I
Brad Miller:would say
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:your husband's the one that needs to to feel this.
Tammy Miller:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what do you guys think? Mhmm.
Brad Miller:I I like what you said, Matt. That makes a lot of sense. And I would say also, this is not God's fault, whatever bad thing happened. And also, Carissa, it's not your fault because you prayed for something to happen, most likely your husband's heart to change, that doesn't mean you were somehow a part of whatever bad thing
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:happened. Mhmm.
Brad Miller:It was that, you know, your husband wouldn't easily come back and he chose to do whatever he did. And God, like Romans eight twenty eight says, God used that for good, but you didn't cause it, God didn't cause it. Mhmm. So that's that's a that's a really tough tough thing to wrap
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:your head around. Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And allowing all of her feelings to coexist, she sounds it sounds like she got her miracle answered
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And she celebrated. Then her heart was broken, and she's sad.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And there's all other phases of grief that she's in, she's mad.
Brad Miller:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:I agree. Mad at God, and I appreciate her being so vulnerable. Yeah. I really do. But redirecting that as well.
Tammy Miller:But actually letting those emotions coexist, you don't have to just feel one emotion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. There's a
Tammy Miller:lot going on there. You're
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:lot. You a therapist?
Tammy Miller:Play one on She just she just
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:saved the show.
Tammy Miller:I play one on day t Yeah. Yeah. Daytime TV. Yeah. No.
Tammy Miller:Just I think that it's okay. Let those feelings all coexist. Keep moving through it. Because we work so much with fair recovery and betrayals, let me just it might be that that she's talking about or things that he was doing. Let him start to transform.
Tammy Miller:Mhmm. And you can then be mad at your old husband. Mhmm. As you get a new husband. And then hopefully, you'll be celebrating more.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So give me the emotions again. That was so good. So first, she's
Tammy Miller:The stages of grief. I mean, talked about the miracle was answered.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Miller:And she was celebrating that. She was glad. Uh-huh. She was glad. And then her heart was broken, and she was sad.
Tammy Miller:Mhmm. And then she was blaming. And then didn't she say something about silly silly to ask this question or something? I think she said something about that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She said as silly as it sounds Yeah. I'm upset because my prayer was answered in a way that broke my
Tammy Miller:heart. So guilt is also another one. So she's experiencing grief. As I was listening to you read each other, I'm like, well, there's grief. And it's okay.
Tammy Miller:All of that could coexist. But don't give up. Let the transformation happen in him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I just, Chrissy, you did not cause your husband to do this because of your prayer. So that's what I would say. So if you're feeling guilty, you didn't make him do this so that he could come to God. But God used this because of your prayer and allowed him to come to God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's it's it's it's it's a subtlety, but it's very, very important that we understand. You know, James is very, very clear that God does not sin and he does not tempt us to sin. I mean, James is it's one of the clearest for because God is holy. So he doesn't cause evil so that good may abound. Now, he may allow it because of love and free will.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Free will. But he's not he is not the instrument of that. Yeah. So
Tammy Miller:And it sounds like there's a confession there, which is a good thing. Mhmm. That if he came to God, he felt, I need to confess. Yeah. So it's a good thing.
Tammy Miller:Just hang on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. This next question is from Esthera. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly. But Esthera from Redding, California.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Do you think a husband and wife should agree, be on the same page on all theologies of the Bible?
Tammy Miller:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Because, man, I'm not even on my same page with myself on all theologies of the Bible.
Tammy Miller:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:good. I'm always like, I believe in that. I'm like, well, think about that. And so so so here's what I
Tammy Miller:So good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Here's what you know, we had Mark Driscoll on the show years ago, and and I what I appreciate about Mark is he said there are closed fist issues and open hand issues. Now they're all issues. But the closed fist issues are the Bible's the word of God. Jesus is the only way to be saved. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You gotta repent and believe in Lord Jesus Christ so that you must be saved. We cannot compromise on that. Otherwise, we are not a Christian. But there are open hand issues where people disagree and people have different opinions. So this issue that you're asking me about is an open hand issue for me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I have pastors that agree with your husband here, and that I have pastors that agree with me on this issue. And for me, it is a secondary issue. And so here's the danger when we make open handed issues, closed fisted issues. We just get further and further apart. And so here's why churches do this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, the criticism of Sandals Church is it's not deep. Okay? Well, maybe that's a fair criticism or not. What Sandals does well is we reach the lost for Christ. What most churches do is they can't.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what they do is they lure Sandals people with secondhand issues, and they say it's a closed hand issue. Wow. So that's how they get them to go to their church. They never make a convert, they make a transfer. And that's what happens with a lot of churches.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And sandals is not just grown sandals. We've grown a lot of churches Mhmm. Because people get saved here and they go, oh, this secondary issue is a closed fist issue and they go to that church. And so we gotta be really really careful with that. You know, now I have some closed fist issues that other churches would say, that's an open hand issue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like for me, same sex marriage, that's a closed fist issue. I do not believe that a church that condones that is is preaching what I believe is the word of God. It is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. It's mentioned in the New Testament all throughout it. And so I've said, that's a closed fist issue for us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And for, you know, a lot of churches are saying that's an open hand issue. And I'm saying, okay, that's that that for me is a deviation from Christianity. So do you think a husband and wife should agree on all theologies? No. You know, this is an election year.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My wife and I don't agree on, you know, all the candidates and all the issues. We we talk about them, but we're individuals. You know, she's not my clone, and she doesn't have to agree with me on all things. Such as should a woman preach in church. My husband thinks God doesn't want women to preach and teach in the church based on first Timothy two twelve, to him, it sounds like a direct command given by God through And I would say, yes, it does sound like a direct command.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The problem is we have Jesus. Do you know who he is? So we have Jesus, okay? And he's not receiving a command from God. He is God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he tells and this is consistent in all four gospels. The first women to preach, the very first sermons that are preached in Matthew, in Mark, in Luke, in John, in all four gospels, the first sermon is preached by women.
Tammy Miller:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's the announcement. Yeah. What do we do with that? And who do they preach The disciples. The men.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Men. The men. They tell the men. Lego, the word Lego, not just like Legos. Lego is go and tell, and it can be translated preach.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's announce. It's tell. It's share. When we go to the book of Acts. So there are two passages in the Old Testament where the Holy Spirit falls.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In the passage on Joel, it falls on men and women. There's another passage in the Old Testament, we'll put it in the show notes, where it only falls on young men. Why did the Holy Spirit inspire Peter to say in Acts chapter one and two that the Holy Spirit fell on both men and women who all prophesied, who all proclaimed because men and women did it. We have Jason's four daughters in the book of Acts who are all virgins, interesting detail, but that's what they are, unmarried women, and they prophesy. Even in first Corinthians, which is another challenging passage where women are to be silent as is the traditional, all the churches is a very confusing passage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And in my humble opinion, it's an insert. It's a moving verse. And a lot of people don't know what that is, but sometimes it occurs in fourteen thirty two, sometimes it occurs in fourteen thirty six. Why is that? Scholars weren't sure where to put that verse.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think it's a scribal entry that eventually got translated in. That's my humble opinion. There are pastors that disagree with that. But when you read first Corinthians 11, if women are to be silent in the church and not communicate for God, why do they have to wear coverings over their head when they prophesy? Like, if they're in their homes, why does why does it matter?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Paul's talking about when you gather together. That's the issue of the Lord's Supper. Some of you are drunk. Some of you are eating too much. Like, the the whole issue is public worship there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:For me, preaching is a spiritual gift. Ephesians four twelve, God gave first to be apostles, some to be prophets. Oh, I gotta get them in order. Apostles, prophets, pastors, teacher or forgot evangelist. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and pastors.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So to me, Ephesians four twelve is about giftedness, spiritual giftedness. The the position of elder at Sandals Church, we believe is a male position. Men should lead and do lead. However, the gift of speaking is a spiritual gift like the gift of singing. And if women have the gift, they should be able to do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's my humble opinion. Not everyone agrees. It's an open hand issue. For some people, they point to and and and here's the thing that's unfortunate. And I think Gordon D.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Fee is the first person that I read who said there's a problem when we call first and second Timothy and Titus pastoral epistles. Because what we think is it's a letter to pastors. It's not a letter to pastors, it's a letter to a pastor. And I want everyone to listen to this. Paul writes the requirements to both Timothy and Titus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Titus isn't on an island in Crete. Timothy is in Ephesus. Ephesus has a cult of Diana, strong women, only women could be pastors there, and if you were a man and you wanted to serve in that religion, they cut your testicles off.
Brad Miller:It's a painful second time I've So heard that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it is a female dominated society. Mhmm. Paul tells Timothy, no pastors there. Right? Because they're coming out of paganism where women dominate.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I believe the verse translated have authority over is mistranslated. It should be translated dominate. Women are not to dominate over men. And so then he goes into the creation story in first Timothy. Why?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because Adam was created first. In the cult of Diana, they had it backwards. A woman was created first and then the man. So now I could be wrong. We don't know that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But here's the thing. If it's universal Mhmm. And this is the teaching for all the churches, why didn't Paul tell Titus that as he went over the qualifications for elder and Titus? It's almost the same teaching, but he does not give the prohibition of women. To me, if it was universal and Paul was teaching it everywhere, he would not have said in Corinthians, hey, ladies, cover your heads.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. He would have told Titus, hey, just like I told Timothy, women can't teach or lead. And in Ephesians, he would have said in Ephesians four twelve, these are gifts for men. But he did not say that. So then we go back to Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We go back to the Holy Spirit descending upon the church. Women have roles and women do lead. It does not mean I'm not an egalitarian. I think you and you and Brad are awesome, you're not the same. Okay?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're a dude, you're a woman, you can make babies, it's your superpower, you can try all you want, it's not So we're different and we have different roles and we complement each other. I call myself a soft complementarian. But there are pastors who feel like I've compromised God's word. And and here's really the criticism that I hear from pastors after we have this conversation. They say, well, the Methodist church ordained women, and then they went soft on gay marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Well, that's a whole another issue. And and you really can't you really can't argue theology. So if we disagree on a, then you're gonna go heretical on b or c Yeah. Or d.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have to deal with one issue at a time. Right. What I ask is, you know, I had a guy quote to me, second Timothy three sixteen, all scriptures inspired by God. I said, okay. So when Paul wrote that to Timothy, what was scripture?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was the Old Testament.
Tammy Miller:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So would he have included judges in that? Yes. So what do we do with Deborah? God picked a woman to lead Israel. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she serves as prophet and as king. She's both. Awkward. Yeah. It's awkward.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And by the way guys, Esther Esther, when you read Judges, tell me which was the good judge in Judges. There's only one. Mhmm. And it's Deborah. None of them were good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like I used to love Gideon, and then I became an adult and I read the story. I was like, this guy's a disaster. Yeah. Samson, he had a lust issue. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like these people were broken. And and Deborah is like Samuel. She led the people spiritually and authoritatively. Sam Sam Sam led us He both prophet and wasn't king, but he really was. Because he's like, Israel, here's your king.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like he's he's telling them who it is. So so I would just say to him, it sounds like a direct command given by God through Paul. Sure. I humbly disagree. You know, I'm the spiritual leader of my home.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's what Tammy wants. That's what we've agreed on. But I don't rule, you know, like, you know, there's been two times in our marriage where I've asked her to submit. In both times, it was to something that we had agreed upon. We had both gone to the Lord.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We had got an answer together as a couple, and she changed her mind. And I I was like, well, we prayed about this and we can't we can't undo what God said. And so my job, right, and that's what Adam gets in trouble for, both Adam and Eve knew what God said, and Adam didn't say, no. No. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We heard the Lord say, let's quit talking to the snake. So that's the only time I've asked her to do that. And and Tammy reluctantly submitted on those issues because that's not fun. Submission is never about when we agree. It's about when we disagree.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And somebody's gotta make the decision and say, two times, twenty eight years of marriage. So I'm not a chauvinist. I I I value my wife's opinion, and the biggest mistakes I've made in my life are when I didn't listen. So we are both devoted followers of Jesus. We both want to listen to what God is asking us to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He is pretty upset that we don't see eye to eye because he thinks we can't both be right. And if he is wrong, that's not okay. And if I'm wrong, that's not okay. I would say it's an open hand issue. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And there are amazing people that I know and love, and some agree with him, and some agree with me. Some go further than me. They're total egalitarian. Like, it's it like, there's no difference between men or women in because Galatians what's the verse? We're no longer male nor female, for we are all one in Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't I don't think that's at all what Paul's saying. I think you're still a woman even though you're saved, and you're still a man even though Yep. You're I don't think that's Paul's point. There's there's unity there that's a different issue. So so I would just humbly say, listen to my arguments, invite the Holy Spirit in.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's the thing is we can disagree, and if you don't agree with me, read when Paul and Barnabas both prayed about Mark, they're both men of God, and they split and went different ways. And so unfortunately, there are some issues where we just don't agree. But what you guys have to decide as a couple, is this a closed hand issue or an open hand issue? And if it's a closed hand issue, you probably do need to be on the same page. If it's an open hand issue, then I would just say you need to have grace for each other.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would encourage Christians to have more open hand issues. So convictions are dangerous things. Any thoughts?
Brad Miller:One quick question, and I ask this genuinely and sincerely. You're our pastor. So isn't there a hermeneutical principle that says something about not building a theology off of one verse. You're you're kind of looking at the whole picture.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. So there really are it really is one verse and it's it's first Timothy two ten through 14. And so people cite first Corinthians thirteen thirty two through 36, but I would go, okay, but that's a moving text. And so, you know, like we we we now, to be to be completely transparent, we don't have any manuscripts without that verse in it. That that a woman should be silent in the churches as is the habit in all the churches.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:See why it's an important verse? Mhmm. But it makes no sense to me. And there's a I I just actually bought a book from a PhD student from Oxford and I haven't read it yet. But it's she's talking about how we misunderstand what Paul's saying.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She actually thinks he's being rhetorical. Like we may not be, you know, two thousand years later we might we we you know, like when years ago I got in trouble because I said to Sermagas, don't you just hate Jesus? Well, now if you read that 2,000 from now, that's not what I meant. What I meant was, doesn't he just get you?
Brad Miller:Yeah. It's hard.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we may be misunderstanding what what's being said there Yeah. And so because it may not be. Yeah. The you know, we could be interpreting it exactly the opposite and it's a very, very difficult thing. But at the end of the day, I go to the gospels.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What what does Jesus do? He tells women to preach. Yeah. I gotta figure he knows what he's doing. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So
Brad Miller:Yeah. So I think that's all very very helpful. And I would just add on a practical level, something Tammy and I will teach a lot is that it's an important distinction between understand and agree. Yeah. And for a husband and wife, those often feel the same.
Brad Miller:Yeah. We have to be in agreement to understand each other. It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. So we'll always point out the distinction, and you wanna always seek to understand.
Brad Miller:In other words, in this situation, hey, I want to understand. I I sincerely want to understand why you think that, and I want to understand your rationale behind it, and because you're important to me, then your your views are important to me, but that doesn't mean we have to agree. Those are two different things, and anybody who's been married for more than about three minutes knows that you're not going to agree on everything. It's impossible. Yeah.
Brad Miller:It's there I said it. It's impossible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And and recently, who's the woman with a huge church in Texas? She's had way too much Botox and
Brad Miller:Oh. Joyce.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Joyce Meyer. Joyce Meyer. Again, don't mean that to insult Joyce at all. But my wife really hears from God from her, and it really speaks to her.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't particularly enjoy Joyce's teaching, but I'm not a woman. My wife loves it and it encourages her and inspires her and I'm grateful for that. Yeah. You're I want yeah. I want my wife and and that's and that's why 65% of sandals is is women.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we don't we don't have a female we don't have a woman talking to the church about what God is saying through her, like we just we divorce, you know, ourselves from that and, you know, a lot of churches that believe that women should be silent, they they have no answer for for how does a woman prophecy in the church. Because I well, you can go the route of John MacArthur. He's a cessationist, and so he says the gifts have all ended. And I just like, once you once you go there, I'm I'm done. I'm like, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's lost you. We don't need the gifts now? Like, I'm like, come on, bro. Like, I think we need them more now. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I I just, you know, and you guys know I wrote a book about praying over a dead kid and he came back to life. So that wasn't me. It was a gift. So that's just me and so but but I love John MacArthur. There's a lot there's a lot of his teaching that's just so good, you know, on the issues of the gifts and women teaching and I think Jesus made real wine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm sorry. I don't think it was grape juice. Mhmm. That's just that's just me. You know, but but there's a lot of people out there that just, no no no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was grape juice. I'm like, okay. Okay. You know. What do
Brad Miller:you have?
Tammy Miller:I was just gonna add that it's it's tragic that it's creating tension between them. And I'm hoping that they could have take this opportunity to dig in deeper and have good conversations and maybe compromise. Maybe they need to Mhmm. Plug into two different churches where they're each going to ones that they they like until they land in a place where they feel that they can settle.
Brad Miller:And then bring those different views back together for the conversation. Oneness and conversation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And a lot of it is, honestly, is, you know, I hear that wokeism is making its way in the church. You know, I don't know when wokeism started, but, you know, and I've heard different answers from my friends. But Amy Temple McPherson Mhmm. Was the pastor of the largest church in Los Angeles in the nineteen twenties. She she's the first mega church in the world.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. So this isn't a woke issue. This people have thought that, hey and think about all the people that were saved. It's not Billy Graham, but it's oh, he just died. Stanley.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Charles Stanley was led to Christ by a female woman pre female woman? By by a female pastor preaching. Like Yeah. So I mean, you think about Charles Stanley.
Brad Miller:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like the Holy Spirit can use women to save us. And and what I would say is we need everybody preaching. Yeah. We need everybody proclaiming. We need everybody sharing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I can't imagine God cutting his team in half. Yeah. That's so good. Just the dudes speak.
Tammy Miller:Yeah. So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:good. So so we need that. And I mean, the reason that China has a 100,000,000 Christians today is because of a woman named Lottie Moon. And why did Lottie Moon go to China? Because no man would.
Tammy Miller:Mhmm. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she is the founder of the Chinese church, like.
Tammy Miller:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she died. She died. Because she refused during the famine in the nineteen forties when when China was going communist, she refused to eat to feed her congregation and she died. Wow. So Story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I mean, there's just a lot of great women out there who have done amazing amazing things and we need to hear them. And as soon as we get chauvinistic, we we we prevent the Holy Spirit from speaking through half the church. So that's my humble opinion. You can disagree.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'll be praying for your marriage.
Tammy Miller:I love I love that you said, why would God cut his team in half? Yeah. So good, man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So good. Okay. Thanks for checking out this episode. You can always submit your own questions to the podcast.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let's give a shout out to the Millers, Miller Time. And let me say this, if you're not involved in the marriage ministry at Sandals Church, you should be because we have all stars here, right here, amazing, the greatest couple I know in the world. So Woo hoo. Yeah. Anytime you wanna send in a question, go to move.sc/ask or go to the Sandals Church app, and we will see you guys next time.
Brad Miller:Thank you.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at give.sc. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
Scott Schutte:If you enjoy this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief listener.