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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
KALEY OLSON:
Hi friends, thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here today with my co-host, Cailah Garcia.
CAILAH GARCIA:
Hey, Kaley.
KALEY:
Hi.
CAILAH:
I love every time I get to be on the podcast with you. It's such a gift.
KALEY:
I love it. I love it, too. And today, you're gonna give us a sneak peek- Yes ... about what we're gonna hear.
CAILAH:
Oh my goodness, guys. I am so excited because we have our very own Lysa TerKeurst here with us today. Open your Bibles to Matthew 26 because we are diving into a story that you might have heard before, but may get to see in a brand-new perspective, and we're talking about Judas today. Which, guys-
KALEY:
Like Judas, Judas.
CAILAH:
Yeah, like Judas the disciple of Jesus. . Betrayed him, all of that good stuff.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
And when I tell you I left our conversation thinking about Judas in a whole new way, I am so excited for you to hear this teaching.
KALEY:
Yeah. Me too. It was so good, and I, I love it. We're not just in Matthew 26.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
We hop all over.
CAILAH:
All over the Bible. There's so much good
KALEY:
So you know, you're, you're gonna get a real education today. But guys, before we let you listen to today's episode, if you also struggle with the idea of control or maybe you have a situation in your life that just seems relentless, we wanna encourage you to listen to our other podcast called Therapy and Theology.
KALEY:
It's available on all podcast platforms as well as the Proverbs 31 Ministries YouTube channel, where you can watch Lysa, Jim, Joel, and Shae in action. I highly recommend this podcast show if you haven't already checked it out because while the P31 podcast you're listening to right now equips you with biblical truth for any girl in any season, the Therapy and Theology podcast will help you work through those tough situations in life you are walking through.
CAILAH:
And if that is not enough to convince you to check it out, here's what one of our listeners recently said about how Therapy and Theology has helped her: "I have listened to almost every episode of Therapy and Theology. It's helped me carry me through some of my darkest days. Thank you for your work and ministry. You have touched the lives of so many."
KALEY:
That is so amazing, and what a beautiful testimony about how God is moving through Proverbs 31 Ministries. If you give to Proverbs 31 I want to pause right now and just say thank you.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
We would not be able to offer resources like our podcasts for free if it was not for your generosity. . So huge thank you from me, and Cailah, and the rest of us-
CAILAH:
Yes.
KALEY:
here at Proverbs 31 Ministries. But that's enough for now. Let's dive into today's episode with Lysa TerKeurst.
KALEY:
Okay, Cailah, we are so excited to welcome Lysa TerKeurst, our friend-
CAILAH:
Hey, girl
KALEY:
our president-
LYSA TERKUERST:
Thank you
KALEY:
our P31 bestie, to the show today.
CAILAH:
Honestly
LYSA:
I like bestie.
KALEY:
Bestie.
CAILAH:
Yes.
KALEY:
I feel like, well, Cai- what people don't know is that Cailah is also basically writes every single email that comes out from the ministry.
CAILAH:
I do, yeah.
KALEY:
And there have been some that have gone out recently about She Speaks and they start off with, "Hey, bestie", and I'm like-
CAILAH:
Or, "Hey, girl hey"
KALEY:
I truly feel like a part of the family whenever-
CAILAH:
I love it
KALEY:
we're around here. But, you know, we've been through enough together that I feel like we can use the word bestie.
CAILAH:
Yes.
LYSA:
Perfect.
KALEY:
And we're good. Um, okay, Lys. Word on the street is you have written a new book titled-
CAILAH:
We're so excited
KALEY:
Making Peace With What I Can't Control. I mean, like, the title alone has been both, um, a welcome title in my life and also a title that I really just sometimes am like- ... "Ugh, why? Why?"
CAILAH:
You're like, "Okay, let me sit with that for a sec."
LYSA:
Thank you.
KALEY:
It comes out on September 15th which is super exciting. Book number- I don't even know.
LYSA:
I don't even.
KALEY:
Do you even... Okay. We're- we've reached that level of books here. But Lysa, this is the first time we've even mentioned the title. Making Peace With What I Can't Control.
LYSA:
Wow.
KALEY:
On the P3 One podcast.
LYSA:
We need a drum roll.
CAILAH:
Ba da da da da da.
KALEY:
We do. Sorry to our, um, audio editors who do that for the podcast. But Lysa, with this being the first time we've mentioned the book on the podcast before we even get into what we're talking about today, why this book? Why now?
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
Will you tell our listeners?
LYSA:
I think the best way for me to answer why this book, why now- ... um, really is summed up in the subtitle of the book. So I'm just gonna read that-
KALEY:
Read it. I love it.
LYSA:
if that's okay. “Find relief from the exhaustion of overthinking, trying to fix others, and wanting to figure it all out”.
KALEY:
Ooh.
LYSA:
So, yeah, that one was a big one.
CAILAH:
Unpack that one for us, Lys.
LYSA:
Um, I write about what I struggle with. And so each time I have a book that comes out, it's both because I see a need for it but first I experience the need for it in my own life. So Forgiving What You Can't Forget, obviously that one very much on forgiveness. Um, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, obviously I'm not an expert on boundaries. I'm a woman who struggles with boundaries. And I'd never heard a biblical sermon about how to say goodbye though the scriptures say that, um, that sometimes restoration is possible and sometimes it's not.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
LYSA:
Um, and then right behind that, I Wanna Trust You But I Don't. So, you know, the, as you kinda look at the thematic flow of these past messages it only makes sense that control would be a topic that fits right in-
KALEY:
Totally
LYSA:
with that theme of healing and learning to, um, move through what we walk through.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
LYSA:
And I wanna do it from both a, um, armchair therapeutic way. Um, I'm not a licensed professional counselor, but I've been through a lot of therapy and have some experiential wisdom just based on what I've worked on.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
LYSA:
And then certainly deep study of theology. . So yeah, Making Peace With What I Can't Control. . I don't really consider myself a controlling person. But when something happens that I feel afraid of the outcome or how that's gonna play out or someone else not following through what they said they were gonna do. Um, or one of those type scenarios where I feel like I'm dependent on other people to make good choices, and if they don't make good choices, not only are they gonna suffer-
KALEY:
Yeah ...
LYSA:
but I'm gonna suffer. And most of us humans are very, um, averse to emotional suffering.
KALEY:
Yeah.
LYSA:
We don't want it.
LYSA:
We try to avoid it-
CAILAH:
Very true
LYSA:
uh, or deny it at all costs. And so I'm sort of in that camp.
KALEY:
Yeah. It's not a power thing for me. It really is a fear thing. And so a typical scenario is something makes me afraid. And I have not even, like, the split second before I wanna instantly solve whatever is the problem, fix someone who I'm concerned about the choices that they're making, or change things that quite literally are not within my ability to change.
CAILAH:
Yeah, that's so true.
KALEY:
Yeah, yeah. It is so true. And I think I remember getting early access to the book in, I think, January of this year. That's something that a good bit of our staff always gets to do-
CAILAH:
For sure ...
KALEY:
which is so fun 'cause we print out the book and, the book, and we read it as, like a document, you know. And I have all my copies from previous years upstairs. But if you're listening to this and you don't know how many words on average are in a book.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
It's, like, 60,000 words.
LYSA:
Yes.
KALEY:
That's a lot of words, and I think sometimes whenever we think about the concept of control there's actually a lot to unpack whenever you-
CAILAH:
For sure ...
KALEY:
get into studying and thinking through, like, what's actually beneath this? What are people struggling with? And so as I was reading the book, I remember flipping through and reading chapter after chapter and being like “this is so good”. And then I flipped to, I don't know if it was chapter eight in the book. It's somewhere around there, and I opened the chapter, and I read about Judas. Like, the Judas who betrayed Jesus. Not the oth- there's, like, another Judas-
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
who's, like, a good Judas in the Bible. But I remember being like, "What does Judas have to do with-
CAILAH:
Right. What are you doing here?
KALEY:
what does Judas have to do with control? What are you doing here, dude?"
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
Um, but one of the things that I appreciate about the way you write, Lysa, is that you really do think about a topic and unpack it 360 degrees around- and really let the Lord lead you in the study of that.
CAILAH:
So true, yeah.
KALEY:
And so I thought, "This is a fresh take on control." It's not surface level. Judas is not surface level.
CAILAH:
No, not at all.
KALEY:
And I think it challenged me in the, in what I thought I knew about Judas. And I never would've linked Judas to control.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
And I was like, "Okay, for our podcast listeners, let's give them a sneak peek that's kinda, like, really deep, um-
CAILAH:
I love it
KALEY:
within this book." And so Lysa, I'd love for you to share that chapter in this podcast episode-
LYSA:
Yeah
KALEY:
because they're our friends.
LYSA:
Absolutely. It's actually chapter three.
KALEY:
Oh, three. Wow. It's very early.
LYSA:
So it's close to the beginning-
KALEY:
Really?
LYSA:
of the book. It is.
KALEY:
Oh my gosh.
LYSA:
It is. I knew when you said-
KALEY:
I was off there.
LYSA:
chapter eight, I was like, "I think it's earlier." So I just quickly-
CAILAH:
Yeah
LYSA:
looked it up.
KALEY:
There you go. And yeah, it's actually in chapter three. Now, I know you've probably heard the Easter sermon where Judas is included.
KALEY:
Yeah. People don't like Judas.
LYSA:
And the minute that you hear his name-
KALEY:
And they're like, "Oh, man"
LYSA:
a picture of a villain maybe-
KALEY:
Yeah, right, right. Sure
LYSA:
... you know, what pops in your mind. And so while I want us to learn from Judas, I want to clearly state up front right now, right here, I am not saying that we are villains in our stories. So just, let's just lay that groundwork. But I do, I do think it's important to look at what happened with Judas.
LYSA:
Um, because actually where we are similar is that we are trying to be the hero who saves ourselves and others from impending peril doom, worst case scenario from happening. And the part that is related to Judas' efforts is we're trying to control an outcome. Um, so again, I'm not saying that we're Judas. I'm not saying that we are villains in our stories. It's actually quite the opposite.
LYSA:
So let's do a little Bible recap quickly. It, the story is found in Matthew 26, and let's start in verse 14, and then I'm gonna unpack it as we go along. "Then one of the 12, the one called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests, to one of the chief priests, and asked, 'What are you willing to give me if I deliver him,'" meaning Jesus- "'over to you?' So they counted out for him 30 pieces of silver."
LYSA:
So that's the first thing I want us to note, that Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. And while greed probably it would make sense that you would think, well, greed certainly has something to do with part of his motivation, there's some other interesting facts that scholars have pointed out. . Um, and I really believe that we need to consider It's not so much the greed that was the driving force. I do think that, that the money had something to do with it. But Jesus was not taking action the way Judas thought he should.
LYSA:
So let's just let that sit on us personally for a minute. Um, have you ever been in a situation where you can clearly see the outcome, the good outcome that you feel like the good Lord should be steering things in, and Jesus is not taking action in the way you thought it should? So there's one place that we can relate to what Judas was actually dealing with.
LYSA:
Many believe that Judas, like other Jewish people, was desperate for things to return to the way things were during the time of the great King David. So basically, he wanted Jesus to be a military leader to help defeat Rome, because remember, Rome is the oppression that the Jewish people are experiencing right now, and it was pretty severe, um, the, the abuse and the way that the Jewish people were suffering. So he wanted Jesus to be a military leader to defeat Rome and become the reigning king, the physically, you know, physical reigning king over Israel. And Judas could clearly see that this would have freed the Jewish people-
KALEY:
Mm, that's right
LYSA:
from Roman oppression. And it would have solved what so many Jewish people considered their greatest hardship. So every day that Jesus refuses to stir up a rebellion against Rome probably created more and more and more frustration for Judas. . So in betraying Judas, I kind of get this feeling that he thought, "If I force Jesus' hand, if I, if I get him arrested, then it will make him rise up and fight against the Romans as the political Messiah, who would surely fulfill the Jewish people's hopes for liberation."
LYSA:
Okay? So that's the scenario of what's happening, and I think you know, bringing that into the context of this discussion is really important. You know, Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah, and he was sent to set people free, but not in the way that Judas thought was best. Judas had a plan for immediate relief. And if you're taking notes, as I see Cailah doing over here.
CAILAH:
Yeah, always.
LYSA:
I want you to write this down. . Okay, Judas had a plan for immediate relief, so write that down, and military victory Now, sometimes we have a plan that we want, not necessarily military victory but we do want immediate relief, and we want things to-
CAILAH:
So do we
LYSA:
work out the way that we think they should work out. Yeah. So that would be that victory part. Right? And Jesus did have a plan. So if you're taking notes, write down that. Like, Jesus, he did have a plan for eternal rescue and salvation. So when you compare Judas wanted immediate relief and Jesus wanted eternal rescue, had a plan for eternal rescue.
LYSA:
Judas wanted immediate victory through military efforts, and Jesus said, "I bring victory, but it's in the form of eternal salvation." Um, so I think that when we take a step back, I can start to see for myself how I'm more similar to Judas' desire than what I even really want to admit.
KALEY:
Yeah.
LYSA:
Um, and I think it's important for us to think through that as it relates to control. So you said, "I don't know, how does Judas relate to control?"
CAILAH:
Yeah.
LYSA:
This is how, right here, he wanted to control how things played out right now. And Jesus had a plan for right now certainly. But keeping the bigger picture in mind. And sometimes that's the same in our story as well. Um, it's not that Jesus is doing nothing. . It's that he is doing something. But when it's not the something we want, we can be blind, unaware, and even ignore what might be happening um, in, in the midst.And also, we can't, uh, forget to factor in the mystery of God, too.
CAILAH:
Wow.
KALEY:
Yeah.
LYSA:
Um, there is a interesting- Fun fact, not really fun fact, but an interesting fact that one scholar pointed out, and I'm just gonna read this to you because I think it's important to think through. So if you look at Luke 22:38, this is when Jesus purges the temple, and it says, "When Jesus purged the temple instead of the Gentiles and kept military spending down to two swords, that was the final straw."
LYSA:
So let me explain what's being done there. Um, it, it was when Jesus cleared the temple and there wasn't the need for people to continue to buy more swords, and Jesus kept the military spending down to two swords, Judas was infuriated. Because Judas had been ready to commit his life to holy war.
CAILAH:
Wow.
LYSA:
So Jesus turned out to be a charlatan, and Judas took revenge on him for causing this disappointment. So remember, this is a co- a scholar saying this. Or perhaps he even contacted Jewish authorities in hopes that their action against him would force Jesus to finally set up kingdom events in motion.
LYSA:
And this is the part of the quote that really grabbed me. If so, he may have fooled himself, Judas may have fooled himself-
CAILAH:
Wow
LYSA:
Into thinking he was helping God, not betraying Jesus.
CAILAH:
Wow, wow, wow.
KALEY:
Oh.
CAILAH:
Wow.
LYSA:
So I'm gonna let that one sit on you personally, too. It's not that we wanna help God out until we do.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
LYSA:
And, you know, so it, it also, the line saying Judas had fooled himself into thinking he was helping God, not betraying Jesus. You know, the narrative that we start to tell ourselves that helps justify wrong actions becomes very, very powerful. And often it's not, it's not that ... W- where our thoughts should be is convicted for doing something wrong.
LYSA:
But when we're building a narrative that spins it- ... and makes it seem justifiably-
CAILAH:
Right
LYSA:
... right, that's where we can really get into trouble.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
LYSA:
And I think that that's probably ... I think the scholar is spot on. Um, so the idea that Juda- Judas may have fooled himself into thinking he was helping God, not betraying Jesus, that's really, that quote really stopped me in my tracks because it makes me think of how often I, too, can get fooled into thinking I'm, quote-unquote, helping God, especially when I'm afraid of an outcome that he may be allowing. Judas did not want to trust the outcome to Jesus. And sometimes I don't wanna trust the outcome to Jesus. Judas did not wanna be a faithful steward of the position he'd been entrusted with. He wanted to be a catalyst for creating the change he was determined to bring about.
KALEY:
Wow.
LYSA:
And we even get a glimpse of this at the Last Supper, when we read about the Last Supper. Mm. Um, Jesus revealed during the Last Supper that one of the disciples, um, that they were gonna do something shocking. Mm. And the verse here is Matthew 26:21-22.
LYSA:
"And while they were eating, he said, 'Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.' The disciples were all very sad and began to say to him one after another, 'Surely you don't mean me, Lord?'". And so you can imagine sitting at that table going around, and one disciple after another after another, "Surely you don't mean me, Lord?" "Surely you don't mean me, Lord?" Right?
LYSA:
But when Judas spoke, he said something different, and you can find this in Matthew 26:25. When he spoke, he said, "Surely you don't mean me, Rabbi?" So why did Judas call him Rabbi and not Lord? Rabbi, when I did some research, is a teacher. Lord means he's the master of your whole life. Um, now if you wanna really nerd out, I don't know, are y'all in the mood to nerd out this time?
CAILAH:
Oh, yeah, I love nerding out. Let's do it.
LYSA:
Okay. So the Greek term kurios, which I hope I'm saying that right, but it's spelled K-U-R-I-O-S. When we translate that, Lord, it has in mind a king. The problem with Judas is that he didn't want this kind of king. He wanted a king like David from the past. So when he called him Rabbi and not Lord, I think it's Judas' way of rejecting the kingship of Jesus.
KALEY:
Oh, my gosh.
CAILAH:
Wow.
LYSA:
You know, he, he really wanted him to help Judas solve this problem.
KALEY:
Yeah.
LYSA:
He did not want Lord of his life. King over my thoughts, king over the outcome, king over the way things play out. And there's such a big difference here between Jesus being a teacher and Jesus being Lord. And this, again, makes me pause. So do I consider Jesus a teacher in my life? Or do I consider Jesus the Lord over my life?
LYSA:
The King, Lord Jesus, over my life. If he's only a teacher, you see, then I can stay in control.
KALEY:
Yeah.
CAILAH:
Wow.
LYSA:
I can learn from him. I can respect him. But if he's only my teacher I still stay in control. And he has an influence in my life, but I'm still the one who determines what I do and where I go. If he's Lord, then my job is to be obedient to him, and his job is everything else. If he's my Lord, then I acknowledge that I am safe to turn over to him that word safe is really important, that I'm safe to turn over to him that which I cannot control. And if he's my Lord, I realize his outcome might look different than mine.
LYSA:
But it is never void of his deep love and compassion for me. And if he's my Lord, then I know he is in control, even when my circumstances or people in my life that are making choices I don't agree with, even if those things feel out of control. If he's my Lord, then I believe he already sees the good that can be worked out through every situation, and that I will never face any one of my tomorrows alone. And if he's my Lord, then I trust he may, and this one's hard he may allow heartbreak right now. He may allow that. But if he allows it, it's possibly to prevent something even worse from happening in the future.
CAILAH:
Wow.
LYSA:
So, woo, that's a lot to take in, girls.
KALEY:
Deep breath.
LYSA:
So in the end, Judas taking control and trying to force Jesus to defeat the Romans. Um, the question is did it lead to the outcome he wanted?
KALEY:
No, but God used it, and that's the crazy thing-
CAILAH:
Right ...But still God used it
KALEY:
is that he still used it.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
And I think it, and I do have something else I wanna unpack, but in some ways, this teaching gives me hope for the moments that I do mess up.
CAILAH:
Right.
LYSA:
Yes.
KALEY:
And I do take control, because I'm human, and I will.
CAILAH:
Right.
KALEY:
And-
CAILAH:
And we're so imperfect.
KALEY:
But it, but sometimes it, it almost gives me grace for the moments that I go in with a complete misunderstanding. And I've missed God in the midst of feeling like this is what I'm supposed to do and what I'm supposed to help when maybe he only asked me to be still.
LYSA:
Now, here's a really interesting point that you're making here, Kaley. Um, the way Judas' story plays out is very, very tragic. But I want you to again see the threads of control. Instead of going to Jesus or getting a message to Jesus or just falling on his face, "Lord, I have messed up." Like, "Forgive me. Help me," he again, when he feels convicted, when he realizes what he has done he again tries to stay in control.
LYSA:
So basically what happens is it led him to destruction and devastation, um because he was very, very, very much wanting to undo what he had done. I think it would be good for us to turn to Matthew 27, verses 3 through 5, and it says this: "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and," and here comes- like, his choice to still stay in control. "He went to return the 30 pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders," and he admits to them Not to Jesus. He admits to them, "I have sinned. I have betrayed innocent blood”. And they replied, "What is this to us? That's your responsibility."
LYSA:
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left, and then he went away and hanged himself. Now, the ending of that is so incredibly heartbreaking. And there is a lot that does not and should not apply to us in that story. . But there's still something to consider. I know what it's like to push toward what I think is best.
LYSA:
Anybody else wanna raise their hand?
CAILAH:
I mean, I'm raising my hand right now.
KALEY:
I'm raising my hand.
LYSA:
But I'm reminded in this story that I am not equipped to be in full control of my future. I am not equipped to be in full control of the way that I should untangle the, the way that things are playing out or even what I have done. I so wish in this story that Judas, instead of returning the 30 pieces of silver, or maybe he needed to do that, and that's fine, but instead of admitting to them that he had sinned and trying to undo it himself that he would have acknowledged before the Lord "I have sinned. I need you, Lord. I have done something terrible." Like, "Please, Lord, give me, um, some sense of your forgiveness and I fully acknowledge and own what I've done." And that's very hard to do, but it is so very necessary.
LYSA:
So I think that this is a lot to think about, um, but I think at the end of the day, we have to, even before we get ourselves into those scenarios where we feel a little bit panicked to try to take charge, control, um, you know, manipulate things into going the direction that we think is best, I think the time to work on what we will do in that moment is this moment.
LYSA: And I think that's one reason I was so passionate about writing this book Making Peace With What I Can't Control. Chances are some of us are in situations right now where we're trying to control.
CAILAH:
Right.
LYSA:
But there are other situations that are coming down the pipeline, and there's no better time than right now to go ahead and make peace with the fact that we can be responsible and do what only we can do in the scenario. Like, you can, you don't wanna have a baby and put it in the crib and say, "Well, I'm taking my hands off here. I've learned I don't need to be a controlling person." No, you need to be responsible to do what God has entrusted you to do. You go and you help that baby and you take care of that baby.
LYSA:
But regarding the outcome, the ultimate outcome of how things play out in the future, um, that's where we have to trust the outcome to the Lord. The big difference between someone who's in a control mindset and someone who is in a responsibility stewardship mindset is, like I just said, the one who is in the responsibility mindset I will do what I can do. I will manage what is within my ability to manage. I will be responsible with the task and responsibilities that I've been given. But regarding the outcome, I will trust the Lord.
CAILAH:
That's good.
LYSA:
If you're in a control mindset, then you're gonna exert a whole lot of effort with the mindset of I'm only willing to accept the outcome that I think is best, and I'll do everything I can to steer things in that direction.
KALEY:
And I think the biggest thread that I picked up in this whole teaching was the heart posture of someone with a stewardship mindset, I think is a lot more open.
CAILAH:
Totally.
KALEY:
Even if it's hard to say, "Lord, you do what is yours to do, and I'll do what-" but it, the control, it's closed fist. And even like that, if you close your fist right now, you're not, there's no openness to it. And I think that the two are linked. But even if I learn, learning about Judas, it gives me compassion for him because I can see, oh, man, he, like, he was so close to Jesus. But he was still so far.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
Like it
LYSA:
Close in proximity ...
KALEY:
close in proximity-
CAILAH:
Right
KALEY:
... but didn't take in any of what Jesus was saying, 'cause he was so-
LYSA:
And he may have taken some of it in.
KALEY:
Right.
LYSA:
We'll never know. You know? We'll never know. But he viewed Jesus as Rabbi. Not as Lord of his life. And so, yeah, you know, the- The entanglements of what can happen when we get very, very attached to solutions of our own making. And how we can be so blinded to the bigger picture.
LYSA:
Um, but in the end, I think we have to remember, we're gonna mess up. We are. It, we're, we're not gonna live this out perfectly. But we don't stand condemned. We stand convicted to go to the Lord and fall on our face, and just say "Once again, I need to practice surrendering this to you."
KALEY:
Right.
LYSA:
"I'll do what I can do, but beyond that, I have to trust you with what only you can do." Um-
KALEY:
So good
LYSA:
.. and not sit in condemnation and try to again, come up with a solution of our own making.
CAILAH:
I, I love what you guys kind of alluded to, which is this concept of, um, the wrongful view that we can sometimes have of God in our lives, and the wrongful view we can have of ourselves. My dad's a pastor, and he often talks about this concept or this visual, um, image of a throne existing in our hearts. And who sits on our throne is the thing that owns and controls and leads our lives. And oftentimes we sit in, on the throne in our hearts, and we try to steer the ship, and we try to keep ourselves away from the rocks to make sure that, you know, we don't scrape the edge or knock ourselves off the boat in the meantime. But I think- What we're trying to unpack here today is the concept of that throne was always meant for Jesus.
CAILAH:
Was always meant for God. It's a place established and ordained before the beginning of time to belong to the Lord. He made it. He made us. And it always was meant for Him. And when we place Him in His rightful place it allows our perspective to shift out of our circumstance and shift onto His goodness and His grace and His mercy, and onto the character of who He is which is faithful, which means we can trust Him then with the outcomes because we trust in who He is to us 'cause we've seen it.
LYSA:
That's right. And- I have a visual that goes right in tandem of something that happened.
LYSA:
So vulnerability moment.
KALEY:
Go for it.
LYSA:
Um, you know, I write this book, and I was about halfway through writing it, and I went to see my therapist, and I was processing something I was facing, and he was like, "You know, Lysa, what we need to work on is, um, how you like to manage things." And I was just like, "Well, that's-"
CAILAH:
You're like, "What do you mean?"
LYSA:
that is just the dime store word for control." And so, you know, I ... You know, while I was writing this book, I kept seeing control sneaking in. And me wanting to manage things sneaking in. And I think part of it's because I'm a highly responsible person. But the problem sometimes when you're a highly responsible person is you can kind of live with this thought process is other people are not responsible like me.
KALEY:
Right.
LYSA:
So-
CAILAH:
I can't trust them to handle anything
LYSA:
... exactly. Right?
CAILAH:
I'm like, "Oh, my God, my heart's beating right now."
LYSA:
Yeah. And so at the end of the day, um, if things fall apart that is not a suffering I'm willing to do. So I'd rather do the extra work of managing this person. And it's okay to check behind somebody, you know, and ask them a question.
LYSA:
But here's how I know I'm in ... It's like I ask and I ask again, and I ask again. . And, and heaven forbid, if they've dropped a ball, it just reinforces in my mind-
CAILAH:
I can't trust you ...
LYSA:
like I can't trust you, therefore I, I have to be in control
CAILAH:
Right. I have to step in. I have to step in
KALEY:
This is how we know Lysa has cameras in our house as she's writing books- ... 'cause I'm like, did she, she knows. She knows at this point.
CAILAH:
Oh, for sure.
LYSA:
And the amount of mental energy we spend trying to-
KALEY:
100%
LYSA:
... not just solve our problems, but the problems of everyone else we do life with, it's, it's a lot of mental energy. And then we wonder, why am I so tired?
CAILAH:
Right.
LYSA:
So my point being, it happened in the middle of a book, big revelation. Yikes. I'm still falling into this. And then I turn the book in, it's all edited, it's ready to go to print, and the book had barely gone to print when I found myself in a situation that I was undone by my ability to control anything about this one situation.
LYSA:
And it, it really sent me spiraling. And normally when I have a spiral session Chaz stays level. And it's like one of us spirals and the other keeps the other one level. In this scenario, we were both spiraling.
KALEY:
Oh, no .
CAILAH:
And you're like oh my gosh, what do we do now?
LYSA:
And we even acknowledged it, like, "We're both spiraling here." Like one of us has to take on, but neither one of us could. And so Chaz was like, "All right, we gotta set this aside. We need to go out to dinner. Like we're gonna, we're gonna talk about something else at dinner." And so, which is a great tactic.
LYSA:
Set a timeframe. If you're gonna spiral give yourself a few minutes and then change your environment and go do something else and think about something else. So I wasn't sure it was gonna work 'cause this felt pretty consuming. But regardless, we went out to dinner. We were down in Florida, and we were at a restaurant overlooking the ocean.
LYSA:
And all of a sudden, out of the corner of my eye, I see something that is unusual. So I turn toward the outside to look out the window, and it is the most vivid rainbow I have ever seen.
CAILAH:
Oh my goodness.
LYSA:
We are talking ROYGBV.
KALEY:
Amazing.
LYSA:
Like truly all the colors in that order.
CAILAH:
Oh my gosh.
LYSA:
Right? And if you don't know what ROYGBV is, it's a little acronym to help you remember the colors of the rainbow. And so the rainbow was definitely beautiful and caught my attention. But what was even more astounding to me was- One side of the rainbow, it was a beautiful, stunning, gorgeous day. Sunny and everything. The other side of the rainbow, and the rainbow, you know, it's, it's not, like, this massive thing. It's a distinct thing, though. On the other side of the rainbow, storm clouds, gray, dark very ominous looking. And I mean, it was in the same- ... window frame, right?
LYSA:
It's like the same, I mean, it's like all so close together. And this was the thought that popped in my mind. What sits between the beautiful things in life and the stormy things in life always should be the promise of God. And so it was such a good visual picture. And when we saw it, Chaz and I were like, "Okay, the Lord could not be more crystal clear with us." And we both kinda had a moment where we laughed, and it's like sometimes God whispers. Sometimes he shouts from-
CAILAH:
He's like, "Hey, guys"
LYSA:
... rainbows in the sky.
CAILAH:
"I need your attention right now."
LYSA:
Like, like, "Do you see this?". "Do you see this?" . There's, there's beauty on one side. There's storms on the other side. Those are always gonna be the push and pull of life. But what sits in between the two are the promises of God.
KALEY:
Wow. So good. I just ... Lysa, I'm so grateful to learn from you. I'm so grateful that you're real.
CAILAH:
Yeah.
KALEY:
'Cause I think there's, there's the temptation to believe that when you write books on Reactions and Unglued, uh, Using Your Time Wisely and The Best Yes. Um, m- setting good boundaries, and then even this. Uh, Making Peace With What I Can't Control. There is a temptation to believe that Lysa's written the book, she's mastered it, she's moving on. But I think there's The reality is, is this is a tool to help us do life better as humans who love the Lord.
KALEY:
And every day there's probably a reset button on control, and every day we wake up, when our feet hit the floor, we have a choice to go “Okay, Help me. Help me, Lord. Search my heart and help me not be controlling today”. Or have those moments where you have that split-second choice like you talked about. So thank you for another tool.
LYSA:
You are welcome.
KALEY:
To help us learn how to be-
LYSA:
I'll give you one more word picture …
KALEY:
how to be good friends. Do it.
LYSA:
Since you just said-
CAILAH:
Give it to us ...
LYSA:
like, um, I, you know, wrote the book. So surely I've mastered this. No. This is the word picture. I've cooked the meal. But now we all have to sit at the table and eat it together. And so just because I wrote the words doesn't mean I also don't need to sit down at the table, ingest them, digest them and make it part of who I am and how I live.
CAILAH:
That's so good.
KALEY:
Yeah. So good.
LYSA:
Right alongside you. Right alongside you. So we're in this together, ladies.
KALEY:
Yeah. We are. If you have a copy of the book, or you will soon, then you're a part of the control freak club too. Right? Here we are.
CAILAH:
Welcome to the club, ladies.
KALEY:
Here we are. But you know what? That's okay. I'd rather be in it with you guys than than anyone else. But friends, like we said at the very beginning of this episode-
CAILAH:
Yep
KALEY:
... this book does not release until September 15th. And so if you're listening to it right now, you can still grab the book, and you get lots of freebies whenever you get the book now. So many good things. Chapters of the book immediately available to read. I can't remember what else, but it's a lot of really great stuff. And so you wanna go ahead and get that now, because then whenever it comes out, it's, like, on your doorstep-
CAILAH:
Right. Immediately ...
KALEY:
usually, like, immediately, which is amazing.
CAILAH:
Yes.
KALEY:
Um, so we linked that for you in the show notes below. And then, Cailah, I think you have one more announcement real quick.
CAILAH:
I do. So guys, if you wanna take this an even step further we have to recommend Therapy and Theology. . Because I'm sure you've heard us rave about it before. It is the best thing. I love that we take therapeutic and theological concepts and really unpack them in a way that is helpful for your life right now, the things that you are walking through. We help you work through them, and we come alongside you too. Just give you a little encouragement along the way. And we'll be releasing a brand-new season all about making peace with what I can't control. And I'm so excited.
CAILAH:
So if you wanna take what you're learning in the book a step further subscribe. Subscribe to Therapy and Theology on any podcast platform. . And subscribe to the Proverbs 31 Ministries YouTube channel, where you can watch Lysa, Jim, Joel, and Shae in action, ready to kind of come alongside you in this journey together.
KALEY:
So, so fun. All right, friends. That's all for today. Thanks for joining us, Lysa.
LYSA:
You're so welcome.
KALEY:
And thanks for being my co-host for today-
CAILAH:
Yes
KALEY:
Cailah. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.