CR109: Season 5 Kick Off with Dave, Esmee and Rob

 We’re back! In this Season 5 premiere, the team reunites after their summer break to kick off an exciting new chapter. Join us as we catch up, share bold predictions for the year ahead, and explore big questions, like whether 2026 will be the year of the autonomous organization. Expect candid reflections, lively discussion, and a sneak peek at what’s coming up this season. 

 

We are very keen this season to establish a feedback loop with listeners, so will be doing shows exploring listener questions and challenges - something we are really looking forward to.  Please get in touch with us, via LinkedIn, Substack or [e-mail], if you have questions or challenges for us, we'd love to hear from you!

TLDR:

 00:20 – We’re back!
 00:35 – Catching up on what we did during the summer break
 10:48 – Planning ahead until Christmas: Microsoft Ignite, AWS re:Invent, an AI mini-series and cool guests
 20:27 – Tech talk: iPhone 17, deep democracy training, and the human impact of innovation
 32:10 – Will autonomous organizations powered by agents emerge within 12–18 months?
 40:45 – Reflections inspired by Jaws, climbing adventures, and Bruce Springsteen 
 

Hosts

Dave Chapman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chapmandr/
Rob Kernahan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-kernahan/
Esmee van de Giessen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/esmeevandegiessen/

 

Production

Marcel van der Burg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcel-vd-burg/
Dave Chapman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chapmandr/

 

Sound

Ben Corbett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-corbett-3b6a11135/
Louis Corbett:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/louis-corbett-087250264/
 

'Cloud Realities' is an original podcast from Capgemini

 

Creators and Guests

Host

Dave Chapman

Chief Cloud Evangelist with nearly 30 years of global experience in strategic development, transformation, program delivery, and operations, I bring a wealth of expertise to the world of cloud innovation. In addition to my professional expertise, I’m the creator and main host of the Cloud Realities podcast, where we explore the transformative power of cloud technology.

Host

Esmee van de Giessen

Principal Consultant Enterprise Transformation and Cloud Realities podcast host, bridges gaps to drive impactful change. With expertise in agile, value delivery, culture, and user adoption, she empowers teams and leaders to ensure technology enhances agility, resilience, and sustainable growth across ecosystems.

Host

Rob Kernahan

VP Chief Architect for Cloud and Cloud Realities podcast host, drives digital transformation by combining deep technical expertise with exceptional client engagement. Passionate about high-performance cultures, he leverages cloud and modern operating models to create low-friction, high-velocity environments that fuel business growth and empower people to thrive.

Producer

Marcel van der Burg

VP Global Marketing and producer of the Cloud Realities podcast, is a strategic marketing leader with 33+ years of experience. He drives global cloud marketing strategies, leveraging creativity, multi-channel expertise, and problem-solving to deliver impactful business growth in complex environments.

What is Cloud Realities?

Exploring the practical and exciting alternate realities that can be unleashed through cloud driven transformation and cloud native living and working.

Each episode, our hosts Dave, Esmee & Rob talk to Cloud leaders and practitioners to understand how previously untapped business value can be released, how to deal with the challenges and risks that come with bold ventures and how does human experience factor into all of this?

They cover Intelligent Industry, Customer Experience, Sustainability, AI, Data and Insight, Cyber, Cost, Leadership, Talent and, of course, Tech.

Together, Dave, Esmee & Rob have over 80 years of cloud and transformation experience and act as our guides though a new reality each week.

Web - https://www.capgemini.com/insights/research-library/cloud-realities-podcast/
Email - [e-mail]

CR109: Season 5 Kick Off with Dave, Esmee and Rob
[00:00:00] Welcome to Cloud Realities. We are back for season five. I'm Dave Chapman. I'm Esmee van de Giessen, and I'm not ready.
Welcome to Cloud Realities, an original podcast from Capgemini, and we are back for season five. Yeah. I'm Dave Chapman. I'm Esmee van de Giessen. [00:00:30] Rob Kernahan and with us on Mike, we have our special guest today. Marcel Van der Burg. How are you doing?. I'm really well. How was your summer? Ah, just returned. It was amazing.
Not to Bonaire. I mean, I left my island, another island. Yeah. People are crying now. So I How are the government there doing with the underfunding that's being caused by this bankrupt, bankrupt department for education's collapsed. Yeah, yeah. [00:01:00] No, we went in a sort of a tour, three Europe with a car and the dog.
How many I, I, I actually know this answer 'cause we had dinner the other night, but how many miles did you do? 5,000. I mean, sorry, what? Seven countries? Three weeks, just cruising around. Uh, I mean, you only meant to go to two. He got lost and had to go through another five. Yeah, buy, I keep driving around these mountains, but, uh, it's not miles, it's kilometres, so.
Oh. You see, that's what the Europeans they do. They'd always make it try and look bigger and you're like, [00:01:30] miles. Okay. Rob's here everyone. Hello. How you doing, Rob? I'm all right. Not too bad. Do you have a good time? Over the summer. Mm-hmm. It was good. We had a good summer holiday exams went well. Yes. Second generation nerd off to university.
Very proud of that. So there you go. Looking forward to hearing more about that in a second. There's me. Yeah. You are here. Yes. How are you? Good. Good, good, good, good, good, good. Online? Yeah. I've spent my holidays, uh, mostly offline. You detoxed? Yeah, I detoxed. Yes you did. Yeah. [00:02:00] You went into, into the mountains, did a trekking holiday, I think.
Yes, I think, yeah. Lovely. So what was your. Biggest digital detox takeaway that surprised you? So not ones that you thought would be good, like more time in the day to read, but like what surprised you about it? Well, I think if you're biking offline and you're so used to getting like apple maps or Google maps, but then just, you know, yes, looking around, you go back to paper.
Uh, no, not [00:02:30] paper. Just following the signs. The signs, yeah. And just go with that. And that was actually, yeah. You're, you're far more aware of your surroundings. Yeah. How many times did you get lost? Well, my partner's really good in navigation. Oh, right, okay. So I didn't get lost. I just lost charged responsibility.
So you didn't get that. I love it. I love it. There you go. The biggest issue with the science is there's sort of a, a trail two hours, but that's done by an athletic. Yeah. Guy who lived in high in the mountains. So it's four hours. Always [00:03:00] double. Double the double hours. Yeah. Now where you were going for like place to place with a trail each day?
Or were you like camped somewhere and doing like loops? To be honest, we just went from hotel to hotel. Yeah, yeah. From there we went not camp camping. Oh, it's, no, it's voluntarily. It's holiday camping. Why would you even, no. And did you. And you gotta say this without crossing any of your fingers or anything.
Mm-hmm. Did you definitely not do digital when you got to the hotel on the evening? [00:03:30] Uh, no. We did digital Yeah. And all. And also I took pictures. Yeah. Standing in front of the magnet. Then you do grab your phone. Hmm. So what was the detox bit then? Well, not, not being online too, too much Be being social.
Yeah. Not being on social. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Did you miss it? Uh, sometimes yeah, because you wanna share, but that's weird, right? Like, why do I wanna share where I'm at? And I, I have a. A different relationship with social. 'cause I definitely don't do that much sharing. Social, I [00:04:00] don't post, I just watch. I mis input.
Oh, you are just like a In Dutch we say, you're like, that doesn't sound flattering. Can I be honest? Well, kimono just in the pronunciation of it doesn't sound right. It's like, that sounds bad. You're an rg. You're peaking. Is it peaking? You're, you're just like. Just, well, yeah, I get a lot secretly watching. I just, I, I watch it, I consume it, but I, I don't like to put stuff out there.
I dunno, I don't share. I, I don't feel a great [00:04:30] urge to do that. No, I don't feel the need to share, but I really do miss, like, reading that stuff now I generally, my general gist on socialist, but because something to like music and films and stuff, and I like to read about those subjects. But these days though, I realized the other day that.
I'm hardly seeing any of that. No, it's, it's changed hasn't. It's a lot of AI generated rubbish out. Yeah. You know what's good? Reddit is becoming the last place you can go for like, relatively good content. And there's a, there's a great, um, one A [00:05:00] IO, which is, am I overreacting? And then people tell a story and then they let the community, uh, play out and they're, they're like fantastic, uh, stories to read.
And then this drama unfolds in the thing. Invariably, there are some very humorous responses to people's serious issues. And it's like this whole, the internet comes together, but at the end of it, generally the community comes in and advises, mm, and that's a great place to go. Am I overreacting? But then still you're not responding.
You're only watching. I, I the [00:05:30] only, so the only social platform I respond on is actually Reddit. Because somebody asks the question, I go, I know the answer to that. And reviews. Let's not review reviews. I do reviews, do review reviews. I do reviews on Google, don't I? So your, in your online persona is actually Rev, McDonald's reviewer Rob one.
One. McDonald's. I review. It just happened to get 5 million views. You, you gave it a good review. I did. What was the distinguishing factor for that one? It was just a boring, dull picture. Yeah. Yeah. And it just, [00:06:00] it just, I keep getting notifications. A hundred thousand, 200,000 million, 2 million, 3 million. I still get posts about Can you monetize it somewhere?
Dunno. Well, Google probably have Yeah, that's right. They've used me. I've been used. Yeah. You have, you've been exploited. Robert, I've reviewed the restaurant we went to last night. Oh, did you? Yeah. Go on. Smash Burgers. Yeah. Five Ace. Is that, was that it? You didn't have any, you didn't put any kind of narrative underneath?
I did. Uh, it was slightly off the beaten track. Yeah. Surprisingly great atmosphere. Mm-hmm. The food is outstanding service. Really [00:06:30] good. Did you do a little thumbs up emoji? Uh, no. I didn't do a thumbs up emoji and I took a picture and sent it up. So it's on, uh, it's on Google. You can review it and you'll see it.
I mean, that's terrific. It's a social good though, so I'm always for social good as you know. I know, I know. I'm just giving back to the community. It's quite important. So. And do you have a tip of a burger? The, the dead hippie burger, uh, was especially good. I dunno why it's called that, but it's like got a white onion thing going on and it's very good.
Oh, very nice. So the [00:07:00] exams aren. Well that's a big relief, isn't it? It's both Children through exams. Congratulations. A Levels and GCSEs is the 16 and 18-year-old thing that goes on in there, aren't they? I, my first eldest child went through GCSEs this year. A very anxiety driving day. And, and he did fine.
He was bang on prediction. Yeah. Still very, it's a tense moment, isn't it? But it's still very, very tense. The big one is, um, the, the, did you get into university or not type Yes thing. Yes. But you get the email telling you if you're in or route before you get your results. Mm-hmm. So you get this [00:07:30] email that says yes or no, and then you know, you've got a good predictor on if you've done your grades on not Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's, that's, that's that synchronization's off. It is, but the um, uh, you know, second generation, but you don't get a phone call. No, sorry. Because that was like the personal part in the 1960s teacher, actually we still do that. It's your teacher calling. They still do it. You get an email that says, welcome to the University of X, Y, Z or unfortunately, here's the link for clearing in your results.
You have to go to, uh, the school portal [00:08:00] and then, then they're up on the school portal at like 8:00 AM and then you, you can choose to go into the school and get your. Printed version. Yeah. That's a social thing. The emotional, the emotional support of your teacher. You can go into school and teach, speak to them, but yeah, but like a hundred percent of kids will have had their grades before going into school.
It's good example of where digital can be quite cold. Yes, that's what I'm saying. A hundred percent outta sequence. Email arrives. It's you, you know, a call from your teacher from the last five years saying. Oh yeah. Ooh. [00:08:30] Cheering. That's the, the out sequence. That's a nice moment, I think is the most egregious.
It all starts at eight, so the, all the systems just fire at eight. Yeah. And that's it. But, but surely it would make just total common sense for the, the university clearing. System to fire at eight 30. No, I dunno, maybe. So, at least you a chance to like absorb your situation before you get good or bad news.
I prefer it the other way round. Because actually the whole point of the day is, are you into [00:09:00] what you want? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a binary result, right? You're either out, it doesn't matter if you've got one up, one down, you're bang on. And that's really the bit you're interested in. So that's the it just tell us your straight away.
It's like ripping the plaster off, Dave, ripping the plaster off. But a second generation nerd off to do, uh, compute science, artificial intelligence, they're quite proud of that. Yeah. God help us. I'm creating another one. God help us, Robert. There you go. When's he gonna be available for podcasting? Uh oh.
Well, uh, three years. Three years. Okay. Let's, let's, let's, let's wind back on that in three years then you're actually seeking. Somebody who's like me to come [00:09:30] on double trouble. That's, I don't mean, I'm not, oh, what did you say? As well as, um, instead off, are you gonna replace your instead off? That's, that's harsh.
I'm just thinking different demographic. Same rob, different demographic. Yeah, same. I mean, it's like, it kind of an amazing thing to have like, you know, as you put it, second generation nerd coming on different demographic view. Gen Z. So instead of a digital twin, we all have just like a, a real, sort of a generic, yeah, a younger genetic twin genetic twin.[00:10:00]
And by then there'll be a Rob bot as well. Rob Bot. Little Rob. Yeah, little Rob. Little Rob and Little Dave might be replaced. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the whole idea idea. That's a gener generational podcast. I think that's the whole idea to have kids, eh? So they're copy of yourself plus another something extra.
Is that your parent and advice there? Yeah. Yeah. Just have kids, no robots. Is that gonna be your new feature on cloud realities for season five? Like Marcel's parenting tips? Yeah, I think that'd What a section, I mean, can you imagine. Like, you know, [00:10:30] our viewership would, our listenership would just be through the roof with that, through the roof.
It's like just, we'd become an agony aunt type, uh, pod where people could write in with their problems. And Marcel solves 'em for 'em. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, come on. That sounds good. Kids left already the house for 10 years. Let's, let's go and workshop that. Marcel. Yeah. Yeah. We'll do that. Yes. Right. So let's move on to some of the subject matter for season five.
So. Big season ahead. Yeah, as usual, we have got a number of different threads that are, I think, something we are going to, uh, focus on. [00:11:00] So as usual, glad to say that between now and Christmas we'll be doing Microsoft Ignite, which is in San Fran this year, and we'll be, uh, kind of as per usual covering AWS Re Invent, which is back in the Venetian in Las Vegas.
Looking forward to those casino bows. Rob, I can see it in your face. I can see your eyes have gone hollow and you've got like a long stare. If you calculate the amount of time we've spent in that city and it's, it's quite a good, fun place to go. Yeah. But you know, when you've, you've done it, seen it, got the [00:11:30] t-shirt several times.
Yeah. And you know, all the secret agent routes through the casinos to get to where you need to go. You've probably been there a little bit too much. I do feel like I know it quite well. Yeah, you do. You do though, you know, uh, yeah. It's um. It's intense as well. Yeah, and it's good. You go, you get the sense, you meet lots of people.
There's a social side to it that's very good and we, we hear lots of great content, but this is nonstop in it nonstop. So we'll come back to what we think might happen at those with a little bit of trend prediction later on that Rob in particular is feeling very confident about, I think he said [00:12:00] as didn't he.
Well, yes, but he goes like, he goes, David, make sure on the opening session we are gonna talk about trends. 'cause I am gonna hit the nail squarely on the head. So we're looking forward to that I think. Yeah, absolutely. But he was also referring to a futurist who actually said, well, one thing I'm sure is that only half of what I'm saying it's true actually be true.
True. Yeah. And I think that's generous for a futurist as generous for me. You know, there's one thing that we do know for sure, and that was something that I. It was, was very surprised when I just joined the team. It's not [00:12:30] that we know the guests yet or that we obviously know what's gonna be announced on those huge big tech com uh, events, but we do know what we're gonna eat.
Oh, yeah. Because all the reservations have been made already. Yeah. To go to the restaurants topnotch producing by Marcel. That is, that is one of the things about, um, a place like Vegas is once you've been there a few times, you know where to go and there's a really nice subculture. Yeah. Uh, where you can go to great places and they're not like the, the standard or casino hotel stuff and you [00:13:00] sort of have to find those more sold to them.
Yeah. You have to, it's more sold to them. Have to find those places. It's very good. Just doing the thing that would be great for a 48 hour stock once in your life gets pretty tiring. The 10th time you've been. Yeah, because like there's really high, high-end restaurants in the casinos, but. It's a restaurant in a casino.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're, we are, despite Rob being a bit of a downer about it, we're Oh, come looking forward, really looking forward to those. Um, the other things that we're doing this season, uh, excited about, we're gonna have, between [00:13:30] now and Christmas, we are gonna have, uh, mini series on. AI where we're gonna look at it through the lens of, uh, a series of C-level guests responding specifically to a series of common questions.
So we can try and get a track on where we think the state of the AI boom is at the moment. So we're gonna try and put a pin in that. And we're gonna do that with 9a colleague of ours called Craig Suckling. He's been on the pod before any who has been on the pod before. So we're gonna look looking forward to welcome Craig back and Craig is gonna join us for [00:14:00] each of those episodes, uh, as part of the presenting team.
And we'll get his perspective too, from a career in, uh, data and ai. So that's gonna be exciting, worth looking forward to. Additional to that, we have got a series of episodes around very complex industries and very complex uses of digital Rob. Yes, absolutely. So when you think about digital transformation, um, being a, uh, a, a tough thing to do, and then you go to an industry which might be aerospace and [00:14:30] defense, and you think about they build the most complicated things in the world and they're secure and regulated for good reason, how does that all come together?
Yeah, so we've got, as a series of conversations with people in those. Industries who are gonna talk to the problems that they face and how they're overcoming them. 'cause they understand that cloud is unlocking all the benefit for them as much as anything else, but it's just doubly hard to do it in their environment.
Yeah. High high regulation, sometimes mortal threat, huge security. Very, very difficult. Very, very difficult circumstances to, [00:15:00] to transform experience in and things like that. But interestingly, the parallels from general commercial use Yeah. Are visible there. Yeah, but the implementation of them very, very much more difficult.
So, so much harder to do, isn't it? And the whole, um, sovereignty debate comes into it and you compile that on, so it's a, it's a plus, plus plus type environment. Yeah. So yeah, exploring the very deep complexity of that. Very good. So lots to look forward to. Hopefully there might be the odd one and two outside of that, but I think that'll probably get us a.
Solid [00:15:30] run into Christmas. Um, at Christmas we hope to have a previous guest back to join us in the Christmas episode, our traditional attempt at Big Thinking for Christmas. So, uh, look, attempts being key word for us attempts attempt it was, was in bold and italics. Yeah. Yeah. We, we try our best. We'll give it a go.
Pay our best. So. We've all had nice, relaxing summers, done some interesting things, got off the grid a bit, been through some exam anxiety, got lost in three countries that [00:16:00] I, when, when he was telling me about it, you know, reminded me of Chevy Chase and European vacation. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. And you did actually drive around the act of triumph.
Yeah, of course you see the bit on European vacation where you can't, off the roundabout. Yeah. Can't get off. Can't get off the atrium. 5,000 kilometers round the, or the Triumph apparently set a new record in France. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're still talking about it on television. Yeah. Dave, how was your summer?
Oh, thanks for asking Is, um, it was also very good. I went through exam [00:16:30] anxiety like Robert did, and thankfully, like Robert, everything went actually very smoothly, but it didn't stop an unbelievably anxious day. And then we had a nice run of things where we'd booked a series of things like over the course of the 12 months running into the summer without really thinking too much about where they're gonna land.
And we had like about 10 weekends in a row where we had. An amazing thing to do, which is Oh yeah, but that's, it takes it outta you though, doesn't it? You want down out, you want downtime. [00:17:00] Ideally you want it every other weekend. Yeah. And less than, considerably less than 10. So we did. We did GLA at the beginning of the summer.
We did Bruce Springsteen concert. We did Formula One, which was great. Silverston Silverston. And we did Oasis, which I think musically probably the, the story of the summer, would you say? It's definitely created a lot of noise. Mm. But yeah, they've been very popular, haven't they? They've come back. I think it's amazing how zeitgeist have ended up being.
Yeah. Because I honestly thought they'd come back. There was a much [00:17:30] higher chance they would come back. Mm. And it would be frankly, a fairly basic old men onstage. Well, haven't they reunion? But that, you know, you know why I think it's been so popular though? Because the nineties when they were big, like 95 through to the early noughties, that was a period of huge optimism.
Mm. And Brit pop had come out. Everybody was going, it was a global sensation. Everybody. I I, it feels like society was happy that time. And I think that's, people going back to remember the good old days. I feel it is proper good old days [00:18:00] rose tinted view of the world. But, but the, so I think there's an element of that.
You, you'd be silly to deny it, but I think the, the other thing that's amazing is like the. The demographic of the crowds that go to those shows. Firstly, it is all genders. So you would, you, you might leap to the conclusion that it might be a fairly male crowd, but that's not true. Equally, it's there's a massive age.
They're still quite downtown city there popular, aren't they? You know what that is? Yeah. That's going on. Marcel's 5,000 Mile journey and Oasis is playing [00:18:30] in the car and the kids are in the back and they go, oh, I know this music. Yeah. There's an element of that I think that just like it's seeped into them from their parents obsession, but they, they were very, very good indeed.
Like they'd be, I could do a whole other episode on why they were very good and I, I was surprised by it. I kind of felt, I, I wasn't that into the idea of a reunion, but I was really quite impressed that very briefly though, my other. Thing of the summer, which has been a relatively late summer and recent thing.
It's a bit like you'll get off the grid thing. Tai Chi Robert. [00:19:00] Oh, don't talk to me about Tai chi. Tai chi. What? Why? So I fancy just, why I fancy doing, I fancy doing it for ages. 'cause I quite like, I quite like the idea of like meditation and things like that. And a slow moving martial art feels more doable than a fascinating martial art.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there was a, there was a clear selection criteria going on, so it wasn't gonna be kung fu or, or TaeKwonDo. I like the idea of kung fu, but yeah, no, it's, that's live back [00:19:30] to your days in the seventies with like, yeah, I like the idea of it. And then once you get good at it, you can walk the earth.
Uh, the, yeah, but it's like, so I've only, I'm, we've only, I've only just started it and we've done the first three movements of what I think ends up being like, about a five or 10 minute sequence that is like what, you know, kind of you work through a series of movements. It disturbs me that I might walk in on you one day and you're all zen and doing weird shapes.
Do a bit now for you. No, you're all right. I [00:20:00] think, I think they'd probably, uh, we were filming this. We could, I could take you through together. Maybe, maybe that. Should we do Marcel, the first time we film the pod? If we do end up filming the pod? You need to have Dave doing Tai Chi at, at the beginning.
Well, you've gotta do it with me though. No, it's a, it's a communal thing. No, you are not dragging me into your, your, your crazy scheme.
So enough with all of that, [00:20:30] there's a lot of it. We're back and feeling rested. Some of us are doing stuff for their mental health and, and physical wellbeing. Robert. Yeah. You're just stopping eating bread. Yeah. No, I did. Yeah. No, I'm, uh, yeah, I did a bit of a, you know. Calorie control thing. It worked very well.
And EZ is detoxed. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm detoxed, but we've had quite some You're detoxed, retox. Well, you like about to get an iPhone 17, so you know like Right, right back in. Oh, what? Right back in. [00:21:00] We're not doing the Android apple thing, are we? Are we going there? I, I, I, I am so out of pace with what's going on with Android.
I wouldn't even know where to start. Well, 'cause it's like dramatically better. You're like miles away. You can't see it. Has it got a plateau, Rob? No, it hasn't. And quite frankly, that design choice, no time for it. What? What? I love it. I can guarantee you they're all gonna have plateaus in about six months down.
So we've created a consumer tech device as a serious design flaw and is awkward. What we're gonna do is make a marketing point about it and call it something and then try and sell it off the back that it's got one. Someone said that's genius. [00:21:30] Well, some would say that was desperate. Let, well, let's see.
And it's actually in very old words, right? I know. Plateaus as, uh, women's shoes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it generally represents the, if you plateau, you've stopped getting goods. Yeah. It's like literally their market reached plateau. Yeah. In transformation. Yes. We've now reached the plateau. Can we say that, uh, the, the organization might have maybe lost its design way.
It's the same thickness as the iPhone six, which was a quite nice phone. Yeah. Yeah. So they've just gone back to where they were. It's like a nice cycle [00:22:00] occurring. Thick, thin, thick, thin, thick, thin, thick, thin, thick, thin. Yeah. Don't we all go through that? Unfortunately, isn't it like It's very true. Thick, thick, thicker.
iPhone six. I was definitely in a different shape. Alright, so over over the summer then during, during these periods of rest and recuperation. Uh, what I do like about it, especially when we do the show, um, it's fast and furious when we, when we're making one week, especially in [00:22:30] an industry that is moving as fast as we're putting shows out a lot of the time.
Um, so it can be quite hard to just take a moment to reflect. And we did that at the end of season four, where we tried to bring a few of the threads of that season together. The start of a new season, the breaking of a new dawn. Exactly. But also new ahead has gone. Over the summer period. Yes. And, and what are you thinking?
So Ez let's start with you. What, like, what, what's, what's percolating? I might bit, I'm actually might be a bit [00:23:00] provocative. Its, it's gotta be grand. So bear with me. Bear with me. Gotta be grand. I'm expecting something big here. Uh, so alongside, uh, hiking, I actually went to deep democracy training. Oh, wow.
Yeah, so I did that. Mm-hmm. Uh, for two days, level one, to be honest. So it's just the first basis. Are you trying to subvert, um, like a government or something? Is that, is this where this goes? No, no, no, no. You're gonna topple. No, no, no. The Netherlands. So it's about, you know, learning the Lewis method. Uh, which is very hands-on, stepping into conversations, noticing the voices that aren't spoken [00:23:30] and practicing how to bring them in.
So it really is deep democracy and having very broad carried decisions with the group. So not the ah, so it's not democracy, as in I voted it's democracy as in the group. Yeah. Deep working in a Democrat. Ah, I was, I did not know I'm, I'm being educated because you're never doing it, Rob. No, that's never been inclusive in my own.
Never felt the, never felt. Autocracy autocracy is the way forward. Yeah. That it's the rule of Rob. The rule of Rob. So, and for me, it's actually another [00:24:00] way of exploring transformation. So not just through systems and technology, but through the way we actually connect as humans. Uh, so that's a Lewis method, and it's actually rooted in the idea that reality isn't linear.
Like Newton actually said, but it's with Quantum and that was interesting 'cause we were talking about quantum, everything's connected. Energy uhhuh. If you touch a certain item at one place on the earth and then across the other side of the world, that same item is actually moving. 'cause then they actually showed that it's big quantum on that.
Yeah. Quantum everything is [00:24:30] energy. Is that like a, is that like a. A bird flaps its wings in China and then there's a hurricane in Indiana sort of thing. No, the paired, it's the p the, it's the balance. Everything is connected. It's the balance. It's all together. Yes. It's not so dramatic as a hurricane that rips, destruction.
I love the way you went straight for destruction off this. Yes. Sort of things are connected. Yeah. I'm trying, I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to connect these things out. I can't quite work it out. Keep going. Keep going. Uh, if you think about it. So then evolution, both human and technological seems to follow that same pattern.
So [00:25:00] maybe it's not a coincidence that we're making leaps in technology. At the same time we're learning as humans to sense and work with those invisible fields of connection. So my prediction, which is pretty weird on our podcast, but I think the next big innovation will won't be online. It'll be offline.
We'll be doing more retreats and maybe even more Tai chi or whatever sense. Come on. And then yes, I'm, I'm, I'm kumbaya by. Yeah, I know. This world does not need you doing Tai chi, mate. I think you need to move on. And then [00:25:30] presence will beat pixels every time. It'll be about circles, not screens. So the real leap forward will be eye to eye, not screen to screen.
That would be my prediction. Wow. So loads in mass. That's a deep, I know. Just let's, before we go into it though, let's wind back a little bit to the beginning of your piece there. Yeah. Deep democracy. Just, just define that a little bit more for me, just and how it connects to the quantum point you made.
Yeah. So [00:26:00] usually what you see is when a huge decision needs to be made in a group. Of people, they go for the majority, which is obviously okay. Uh, but you do not hear the voices that are not being spoken out loud. So how can you actually enrich that decision? Mm-hmm. Of the majority? With the knowledge and the intelligence of the unspoken voices.
Mm. Uh and that's what you actually do. So you connect that so everything can be there. So it's not either or [00:26:30] it's end. End. Yes. And that's also with the quantum leap in tech, it's, and in transformation as well. Yes. We have people that are very excited and there are people that are anxious. It's not, you know, you're not, it's objectifying also so that everything is possible and everything can be there.
So that's that. Yeah. So I think, and this is, this is, does that make sense? I, I'm still wrapping my head around it. Let me share with you what's been going on in my head and let's see if there is some connective tissue in it. 'cause I think there might be, [00:27:00] but, but I, you be the judge. So what I've been thinking about is, uh, AI and I've been responding a lot to what looks like the plateauing of LLM progress.
Mm. Mm-hmm. At one point, depending on how much you understood or not about LLM, what it looked like was that we were on the route to something very profound in terms of the [00:27:30] creation of an artificial intelligence of some description. And I think we might have achieved that. But what I don't think we're on the route to do, or maybe anywhere close to.
Any, any, any type of real consciousness? No. So I think you can create, are we at a point now where the Turing test could be passed by? Oh, it's easily passed. Like, I mean, easily passed the Turing test. Orders of magnitude passed that. Right. [00:28:00] So therefore, I think you can just declare. You know, we we're doing pretty well with this at this point.
It's definitely much better than would, you know, we would've perceived two, three years ago. Yes. So there's been that leap in transformer tech that's allowed it to, to work the human interface. Great. But the intelligence or the consciousness is miles off, wherever that is. That'll be a federation of lots of things.
Yeah. Coming together. And it probably won't be designed, it's not one tech, it probably won't be designed it be, yeah. So chaotic. We'll create it in within that then within that slight reframing of it, which is like, [00:28:30] let's not worry too much about. You know, kind of the, the terminate version of the future because, you know, something's springing up that's got a consciousness that then gonna make a series of decisions.
It's probably quite unlikely. I mean, it's, it's not unlikely that a bunch of automations might go mad and something might go wrong. That's well within the capability of the current set of technology. Um, but I think a conscious artificial intelligence is probably not gonna be here soon. You know, there's, there's a prediction, but the, um, [00:29:00] what I do think is real though.
Is that the, even within the limitations of the technology that's been developed to, to today, like September, 2025, we have got at least a 10 year adoption lag. Both as individuals, humans, organizations, and society, to use this technology as effectively as we possibly can. And that's assuming it doesn't progress from now, which it of course will.
I don't think it's a, yeah, I, I agree. There's an adoption [00:29:30] lag. I think the adoption lag though, will create the failed companies of today and allow the future companies of tomorrow to rise. So it's not a. They're just not going to be able to tackle it effectively and somebody's gonna shoot stripe past them.
Yeah. Slingshot, you're gonna see a load of corporate slingshots. I, I think that's right. I think also though, within that adoption period, I think it is also true to say that it will have very significant ramifications, whether it be on organizations or workforces or whatever it might be. [00:30:00] And that's here already.
It's like we, we might not have got to it yet, but even without consciousness and fully functioning a GI we're in that. Zone already. You've, you've strayed into the area of my prediction. So you, you're on the fringe. Hold, hold it though, because I'm not done yet. Okay. I'm not done yet. And I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and bring it back around to, and then we'll go to your one.
So, so I was thinking, well, you know, beyond that. Well is one, is that enough? Mm. And that is the, the move from like information age businesses and [00:30:30] the way that we function as individuals and societies to intelligence, age businesses, and the way we function as individuals and in society. What does that look like for the human?
Mm. And actually, where I got to was relatively close to what you were saying. I think es, which is. Is it more interesting to say that if in the information age what we've effectively created with this first generation of true AI is giant information calculators? So [00:31:00] like when the calculator was introduced to basically accelerate maths, what did, what did that do?
Well that allowed people to remove that toil and go on to do greater and greater things. And we've already seen in kind of in the early implementations of ai, the ability to remove days and weeks of toil. Of information aggregation and therefore potentially get on to do greater and greater things, so as humans.
Is there a potential for a new Renaissance? That's the [00:31:30] Star Trek vision where technology and every society came together. We've got lots of time to go do the right thing. Isn't it your positive future? It is Possibly that not dystopian. I was probably thinking less. Yes, exactly. Not dystopian future joy.
Dystopian future technology gives us joy. It is the, yes. Technology gives us space to have joy. And that space creates the human connection that you talked to. I think so too. Yeah. Are you going Dave? Can I just say I also do tie achieve? Are we actually agreeing all three us? We did actually agree. I will say that was But Rob hasn't.
Rob hasn't gone yet though. No, no, no. Hang on a minute. I was gonna say that was a very long [00:32:00] way to come back to the connective tissue, but it didn't actually work. So there you're welcome. See what you did there. This is not my first rodeo. Go on. So this is a this, this is me saying in and around 2026. So we're not gonna get to, you know, a GI or whatever that's still five, 10 years out.
However that is. Do we actually want the conscious a GI dunno, not sure Moral point. There is, uh, jury's well out on that. The, is [00:32:30] the level of automation and integration has got to such a maturity with what gida do in MCP, all that. Um, A two A that actually we will see the first. Autonomous organization. Ah, which is, is your organization alive?
Yeah, exactly. David. It's gonna come true. So autonomous finance, autonomous hr, autonomous workforce, lights out. Mm-hmm. With somebody, two or three people over the [00:33:00] top just monitoring what the org's doing. And it is totally automated. Now. Probably be a startup. And they'll do something significant. The agent first organizations already.
Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. But the, the, I reckon the threshold will be 2026. They're actually going to make it work. Really? Yeah. Yeah. That's like real close, huh? Uh, I think it's that close. So the idea of a whole department defined as a configuration agents go and do it. And you just watch what the organization do is coming and when that happens, there will be an almighty scramble [00:33:30] and organizations will go, ah, if we don't do it.
We're out. Yeah. So we have to do it. Yeah. And it's that scramble point I think's gonna occur in 2026 and everybody suddenly goes, oh my God, it's actually happening. Cascade effect. Rob, is that running on a plateau Telephone? They're all gonna have iPhones. No, but the, the, the thing is that, so when you realize you can build an entire organizational department.
As a configuration. Yeah. As Syngen and it can interact and it works. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, [00:34:00] okay, so how many departments do we have actually have five, six. Create those, connect them. Bang, you're off. I. Absolutely think that's, that's completely viable within the next 12 to 18 months. People, people build lights out warehouses.
We've got autonomous vehicles coming, you know, the whole thing. It could be physical as well, which is, you know, end to end. And there was a big organization that fired 8,000 HR people there. Replaced by one bot. Exactly. That's a whole department. Yeah. So there you go. I'm not, I'm not gonna comment on that.
You do that with the [00:34:30] others. Yep. And then you can build an organization that's massively more efficient and effective. Overnight to challenge this. Right? So now we also had co-pilot and it's gonna do amazing stuff. And we also talked about the adoption lag. Is it gonna be like, okay, so big enterprises actually see that, that autonomous organization, and then they're gonna decide, okay, let's do that.
And then well, so this is the thing. They're gonna want to do it. Yeah. But they won't have the people, the capability or the structure to do it. Yeah. And that'll cause going back, which is why I was saying you're straying into my point, which is [00:35:00] we'll get the corporate slingshot. I, I think that's, I think that is right.
Yeah. Now. The only, the only thing I think get, get in the way of it is humans traditionally have been quite bad at implementing technology on the whole Yeah. Um, you, for example, there are, I, like I, five or eight years ago, I. Was banging on about the cloud native enterprise, on cloud busting. The show that came before this, the, and I thought the cloud native enterprise, which would all be product centric and [00:35:30] you know, kind of inverted, empowered hierarchies and all of that sort of stuff.
You thought it was gonna happen. I, I mean, I was quite optimistic about it. The organizations that have done that, organizations do exist and they do operate like that. Yeah, that's right. Are very successful. Very successful. Yeah, exactly. So yes, I think that the only thing I think that's gonna stop large scale organizations moving are the humans in those large scale organizations own in from moving faster enough is to be that own inertia that kills it.
I think that's the thing that's the big, the big thing to watch out for, to the big message in what you're saying. Yeah. So, [00:36:00] um, and so when that happens, huge disruption. Mm. Like we, we thought AI and. LLMs, were gonna do that. And it has, but now I think this is gonna be actually, people now see, well, it's the application of it.
It's the application becomes mature enough to do something significant there. But isn't that the promise that we've been seeing throughout the years? Like from an archeological perspective, that's it's always, oh no, this time it's really gonna change the, the bit that triggered it in my head and why I, I now predicting [00:36:30] this is, um.
Software development started out by, I'll give you an agent and I'll make you more productive. That was the first application of ai. And very quickly, six months after that's been maturing, they're now creating one lead software engineer over 10, the humans outta the loop, and a two week sprint becomes two days and the results are coming out.
So if I can take a, something as complicated as software delivery lifecycle. And al almost completely make it agen. I can make a finance department do that. I can make an HR department do that. I can make a [00:37:00] supply chain do that. Yeah. It's just a reapplication concept. They've taken the most complicated part of something creating software.
Yep. And they've, they've automated it to such a level you go. That's incredible. The, the other thing that occurred to me when I was doing a bit of work over the summer is a notion of democratized automation. So let's got all the words in that. Dave, go on. Keep going. Right? Brace yourself. I like it. I like it.
Are you ready? Hold onto your chair. So thi this notion right of one thing we've been rubbish at like for the [00:37:30] last 30 years of it is giant size implementation of end to end processes, right? Mm-hmm. Just constantly a ation factor the whole time. So there is one application of what you're saying, Rob, that says.
Okay, let's do big program approach to understanding our end-to-end, whatever it might be, HR processes or the kind of financial processes and going, right. Let's now try and work out what automation of that looks like or what you could do. Is you could [00:38:00] make available a series of agents or automations that then you, in your day-to-day job just then start to use.
So over time you get like an organic automation happening. Yeah. And that feels more implementable to me than kind of large scale and that it's going to be a federation of lots of little things. Yeah, exactly. That come together that's gonna make it work. Yeah. And there'll be a marketplace for, uh, your, your, your HR department doesn't go out and get a human to do it.
They just go to a marketplace and get the agen in and you rent it for two days or whatever, and it does [00:38:30] what you need it to do. I think that's it. It's gonna be ex, it's gonna be excited to see which industry and what type of companies, you know, will be the first ones doing this. And I'm going for supply chain.
Are you? Yeah. Yeah. I say 'cause you've got the, the business value's so high. Yeah. Yeah. The business value high. So you've got lights out warehouses already. Huge automation, the physical good shipping. You've got autonomous vehicles. We already see auto autonomous delivery robot. It's also autonomous organizations.
That's probably the whole thing is like you interact, is your organization alive here? Yeah. But. You interact and the [00:39:00] drone drops your parcel. Now we know the two ends of that are already hugely automated. Your, in your, you know, digital interface and the, the, the transport, I mean, the bit in the middle, it's like getting very close.
So that gives us a, a pretty. Interesting series of dynamics that we're gonna explore over the course of the next number of months. And let's face it, probably years. And uh, and if that mention is wrong, and it doesn't happen in 2026, it was Dave who told me all about that. And he told me to say this on the pods 'cause he, he [00:39:30] wasn't sure, you know.
So what I was gonna say though. Is last night over dinner when we were talking about, Hey, what should we do for the opening episode? Rob's all cyborg. There's yes. Cyborg that, oh, that's the other thing. Where's the cyborg shit, Rob? Well, well, we're gonna become cyborgs. That's it's future. We'll leave that for another start.
That's a wholly different show, but that we, that is our future, I reckon. So we won't be the cold ai fuse with technology. See, I prefer the, the, the detoxed. Quantum reality of deep democracy [00:40:00] in Tai Chi. I mean, that's, that's the world I wanna live in. It's the world I want to live in. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, unfortunately, I don't think that's the world we're going to be living in.
Yes. Maybe because of tech. Because of tech. And we've always put tech in our bodies, cochlear implants, pacemakers, um, you know, sort of augmenting the eyeball. Don't stop, don't, don't, don't go into the tech you put in your body, Rob. Uh, almost. And anyway, going back to where we should be going. Um, it's just gonna continue.
It's coming. Look, it's coming. [00:40:30] Oh my words.
All right. So let's just wrap up the show by doing something a bit different in the spirit of human centricity. And being inspired by things over the, over the summer period. And maybe go a bit broader if you want to, but in recent, in recent months, what has been the sort of the big [00:41:00] creative thing that's inspired you?
For me, uh, we got out to Cape Cod. Mm. And a great film. I love, ah, this is a great one. A jaws. Absolutely brilliant choice. Uh, and, uh, they've had, it's the 50 years. Mm. So I was keen to go. So I went to Martha's Vineyard and all that where it was shot. Yeah. And there's a museum there and there was a big exposition on about awesome jaws.
And it had, it was really cool. They had, um, iconic shots. And they showed you where in the island it was. They had behind the scenes [00:41:30] photos. They sort of talked through the story. You learnt what the, um, the extras were doing now and the From the Islanders and how they responded. Yeah. Because other than the main cast.
They were all the islanders right in. Yeah, they actually involved the islanders in the filming and they talk about them and their experiences and there's a load of audio. It's really well set up. Of course there's the big giant fake shark, but you learn a lot about how the shark did and it was, it was really cool.
The shark kept breaking down, Bruce, which is why the shark features less in the film than you might have thought because it was always broken and these are all [00:42:00] fact. It was, it was really nice. And you'll be pleased to know Dave, I went to the exposition. With my Jaws T-shirt on. Oh, I know you did it. I applaud.
I applaud you for that. That's good. So I could have easily chosen jaws as well, actually, actually, because I went to, I went to the IMAX screening of Jaws 50. I would've gone anywhere, but it's even deeper meaning, 'cause it's my youngest son's favorite film and it's been his favorite film as long [00:42:30] as I can remember.
He's only 14. Yeah. And he probably saw it. Let's say maybe a bit young. He's started at about six or seven and he is ob, he's been obsessed with it ever since. Collects posters, t-shirts for jaws. It's classic, so we generally watch it once a summer. And this year because of the 50th, we went to sit on IMAX and it was absolutely Bri, like really brilliant, incredible sit.
It's like the Dolly shot, the Dolly Zoom shot. Yeah. Classic, all that sort of stuff. I, I think that, that, I honestly, I, I, a whole series on [00:43:00] jaws probably, but just to pick. Thing. It is the, it's the three-way dynamic on the orca and the, the, the bit that was very difficult to film, like because of the sea levels changed and the weather changed and all that kind of stuff.
But the, the, the, the shot precision. From Spielberg of that last section of Jaws with that like absolutely iconic three-way kind of dynamic. I, it is just, it, it's amazing to me that film it is. And it, uh, it was really nice to see. It's still well remembered, well loved, [00:43:30] and it was this, uh, Spielberg's big break as well.
So if it was massively over budget, loads of production issues, it might have not happened, but the studio did actually invest in the art and saw it coming. I, so there's a, you might be interested if you hadn't seen it already. There's a documentary on Disney Plus called Jaws at 50. Ah, yeah, yeah. It'll cover some of the same ground, but it's also got Spielberg today reflecting on Jaws.
And one of the things he, stories he tells about the how just unbelievably stressful it was as a 27-year-old to hold all of that [00:44:00] together and then deliver a work of genius. He says like his, he used to have an office on the universal lot. In Hollywood, which is where they have universal studios like the theme park.
And they had the jaws ride there. So as part of the Jaws ride, they brought the, the orca, the ship that they go out on to catch Jaws. They brought the orca over to, um, universal Studios and they, they had it there. And Spielberg in this documentary says that he used to go number of times a [00:44:30] week, and he goes, I would sneak onto the.
You know where the ride was and I'd go and sit in the orca, you know, around the table. Yeah. And he goes, and I would cry. And he goes and he goes, I did it for a number of years. And it was like, it was like his, his way of getting the pieces dealing with the stress and the trauma. Yeah. Geez. Yeah. Mad. So yeah, jaws look, took substantial effort and sweat to get through and made it.
It was this big break though, wasn't it? That film went nuts and that was it. It was it. It was complete work of [00:45:00] genius. Absolute work of genius. Yeah. What's your big inspiration? Well, we actually went to mind Mystery. It's in the south of the Netherlands. Mm. And it's all with optical illusions. Oh. So you, there's even, uh, street paint.
So they already set out where you should put your cameras or your phone, so you know Exactly. Ah, very cool. And the buildings are upside down. So if you stand there, it looks like you're, uh, going through the air. And, uh, it was actually quite. Simple. Mm. It [00:45:30] wasn't that tech loaded, but it really was. But it's a, it's a, it plays with the, uh, yeah.
The way we perceive things. Yeah. Mirrors and, yeah. I like it. Walking around. Really good. That's fine. Really good. I would like that. Yeah. It does sound good. Yeah, that does sound good. Yeah. I was talking to a colleague of ours called Pepper, the shout out to Pepper if you're listening. And she was saying that she went to a piece of theater recently where, um, you go into a, uh, a shipping container.
And, um, there's only two people at any one time [00:46:00] going. It's an immersive piece of theater. You won't be express here. You put on VA VR headset and you become, uh, like a, a baby, but speaking in a different language to you, and you go all the way through to being an old person and then walking down towards a light.
She said it was like mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing. That was a good one. You should have alcohol or other stuff. Like I, uh, I didn't inquire. I didn't inquire, but the, that's, I [00:46:30] can imagine from a sensory perspective, that's quite significant. Right. Quite, quite a thing. And she said you'd looked out and your hands were old and.
You know, you had a walker. So the, the, the, the theater, it's like the movie with the, the, the famous movie when he turns up. Oh, Benjamin Button. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. It is a bit like that, like living that through. So yeah, stuff that alters your p perceptions and things, your, your thing reminded me of that.
Yeah. Masa s. Um, yeah, that was into going into nature climbing. I did, uh, in June, [00:47:00] uh, a couple, almost a week, climbing with my daughter and, uh, son-in-law. And that's not like a, a soft play area? No, no, no, no. Just so the audience got No, no. Real, real steep, real, real challenging. So, uh. Yeah, that does. You sent a picture, Ron.
It is one of those ones. If you turn down its side, you're like, you know, yeah. Really Well, in my younger days I did also ice climbing and other stuff, and then being back in the mountains, uh, uh, [00:47:30] detoxing from, from it and just enjoying nature and, yeah. Amazing. But during that climb, I thought, oh, maybe I need a personal AI butler.
So that, that, that was really a weird combination. You went from, I'm climbing to, I need my robot butler. Yeah. No, no, no. I, this is a, this is a brilliant insight into how Marcel's mind acts shilling works. You went from climbing to robot Butler in an instant while standing less than 30 seconds. It wasn't hundreds [00:48:00] and hundreds views in the telling, but it's more about, so if if I do more AI butler planning, then I have more time to do stuff.
Like, oh, that's it. That's, that's the point, isn't it? Technology gives you space. Yeah. Yeah. So, so planning stuff and, uh, maybe your financials, maybe planning trips and Yeah, just use more sort of AI butler who really knows me and my family, and, uh. So, yeah, that, that's a weird combination, but that, that really sums up Marcel.
There you go. So come on then. Dave, [00:48:30] what was your, uh, um, big experience? I'll go with, uh, a lot of the, the gigs and things that I talked about earlier this year were quite big in my summer, so music was played a big part in my summer. It typically does anywhere. I'm quite into it. So I'm gonna go with the Springsteen's Tracks two box set that came out at the beginning of the summer.
So how was that Horrendous amount of tracks? This is like. I think it might be unprecedented. So 80, just about 80, he had eight odd, eight odd tracks on us. Yeah. [00:49:00] Now the amazing thing about it is like, um, the, the tracks span from like about 1983 through to about. In the main, there's one that's later, but in the main through to about 2000.
So that's sort of period of time, whatever that is. 15, 18 years, something like that. With the bulk of it from, from the nineties. And he said that during COVID, he had the time to sort of go back to all of this, so just edit it through what would be a ton of Yeah. And he sequenced it all into seven. You know, standalone [00:49:30] albums, so it's not just like he's a data dump of like a ton of stuff that I did.
It's like seven brand new unreleased albums released at one time. It is in a boxer, and I, I always hoping when you were gonna say you discovered that jump by Van Haer was the greatest song, but you've come from Springsteen's masterpiece. I was just, I was hoping there was a little bit of me inside. He's gonna say jump.
He's gonna say jump. He's gonna say jump. Still have time for that. Rob. It it one day you'll realize it's a happy song. Yes. Well, on that note.
We are back for season [00:50:00] five. Stick with us if you would like to discuss any of the issues on this week's show and how they might impact you and your business.
Please get in touch with us at [e-mail]. We're all on LinkedIn and on SubStack, so we'd love to hear from you. Feel free to connect in DM if you have any questions for the show to tackle. And of course, please rate and subscribe to our podcast. It really helps us improve the show. A huge thanks to our sound and editing visits, Ben and Louie, our producer, Marcel, and of course to our listeners, see you in another.
Reality next week [00:50:30].