Theological Coffeehouse: God’s Sovereignty in Prayer, Suffering, and Salvation

Show Notes

For this summer discussion, Joel Brooks, pastor of Redeemer Community Church teaches on the doctrine of the sovereignty of God. Q&A following.

What is Sermons from Redeemer Community Church?

Redeemer exists to celebrate and declare the gospel of God as we grow in knowing and following Jesus Christ.

Joel Brooks: 00:00

I will, welcome to Redeemer Community Church's theological coffee houses. We've been doing this for 4 or 5 years now through the summer. And, the format, typically, that we do is, around 50 minutes of lecture, 50 minutes of q and a or so. I'm I'm gonna try to keep the q and a a little less I mean, not the q and a. The lecture a little less tonight, so you can ask some q and a.

Joel Brooks: 00:30

And, let me open this up with prayer. God, thank you for this evening for letting us come here. Thank you for the food you've given us. It reminds us of all your good gifts, and we give you thanks and praise. We ask that you would open up our hearts and our minds tonight, that we might receive truth.

Joel Brooks: 00:49

Give me clarity as I speak from your word. And we pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen. This is a really big mic. It's going to take me a while to get used to this.

Joel Brooks: 01:02

I recently, at last Friday, I had probably the most awkward dinner of my life, which is saying a lot. But my my brother had just gotten engaged, and we were having a meet, you know, her family kinda party. And it was, it was his fiance's, you know, family, like all of her sisters. It was it was all of my family, all of her family meeting. And, none of us knew each other before.

Joel Brooks: 01:35

And we're sitting down at this really long table in which, her dad is on the head of the table over there. And I'm at the head of the table here. And very first thing, he says, he goes, so I hear you're a Calvinist. I was like, oh my gosh. He's like, so, I mean, does that make me like a step below Mormon to you?

Joel Brooks: 02:01

I mean, that was the very first comment. And I said, well, I don't know anything. What are you believing? He goes, well, I'm not a Calvinist, so I guess I'm nothing in your eyes. And, it went it went down from there, actually.

Joel Brooks: 02:13

And everybody's just kinda staring at their plates, scraping, and I'm trying to bail. I'm like, you know, hey. Do you follow football? And it's like, so do you really think that stuff's worth anything? And, probably the most awkward point of it all is, I started explaining just some things because he was just really forcing me to.

Joel Brooks: 02:31

And he goes, yeah. So why does that make a difference? And so I explained. He goes, yeah. So why does that make a difference?

Joel Brooks: 02:40

So I explained. Yeah, so why does that make a difference? We went 4 times through that. Then he got up and he walked out. So I'm prepared for tonight.

Joel Brooks: 02:49

All right? There is absolutely nothing you could throw in my way. I mean, I had my trial through fire just a few days ago. Actually, I'm hoping we don't have any awkward moments like that tonight. My my goal is just a good honest dialogue through this.

Joel Brooks: 03:07

My goal is unity and worship. And, and hopefully, God will teach us more about himself so we get a better picture of the God we love and serve. Now, I've encountered a number of people who, when I've asked them their thoughts on the sovereignty of God, or on maybe election or on predestination, have been very quick to say, well, there's just some things we can never understand, and then just quickly move on, saying that they're not going to waste their time thinking about them. And I'm always a little saddened by that response, because while, yes, discussing suffering or sovereignty or election is difficult, and while there are some things that we probably will never know, not everything's that way. Some things we certainly can know, some theology through a lot of thought and prayer, teaching, dialogue, we can learn more about the Lord.

Joel Brooks: 04:16

Let me read you 2 verses. The first comes from Deuteronomy 29. The secret things belong to the Lord, our God. But the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever. And so this one verse here tells us the same thing.

Joel Brooks: 04:38

And so we're going to be doing that. And so we're going to be doing that. And so we're going to be doing that. And then there is other things He has revealed to us about Himself, and they are for us. And he's revealed these things to us through his word.

Joel Brooks: 04:59

So we can know many things. He has revealed many things to us through His word. And we are to hold on to those there for us and for our children. 2nd verse I want to read to you is 2nd Peter 3 15. This is Peter writing to the church.

Joel Brooks: 05:17

He says, our beloved brother, Paul, also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable will twist to their own destruction as they do other scriptures. And so here you have Peter, you know, the Apostle Peter, the, I'm going to build my church upon this rock, Peter. And he is hearing Paul preach and reading Paul's letters. And he's going, that's hard.

Joel Brooks: 05:55

That's really hard to understand what Paul is talking about. But he encourages the church to keep on trying to understand. He doesn't say it's impossible to understand these things. He says you've got to think about them seriously. They are hard to understand, but it is our responsibility to understand.

Joel Brooks: 06:16

So to me, when thinking about the issue of God's sovereignty and how it affects things like prayer and our evangelism or suffering, the question isn't, can we understand this or not? The question is, is God worth worth it to us? Is knowing him worth the effort it takes to take seriously his word and to put the effort and study into it? That's that's really the question because he has revealed these things through his word. And so what we're going to do tonight is want to look at a lot of scripture.

Joel Brooks: 06:55

I want to look at his word and, and hope that God gives us some understanding to these things. And I'm going to open up with a scripture reading from Isaiah 40. And just so you know, scripture is going to be our authority tonight. I'm not a philosopher, and I'm not going to go through any philosophical questions. I'm going to continually point us back to the scripture.

Joel Brooks: 07:18

That's my base assumption for us here in this room, is that scripture is going to be our guide and our authority. And to just get us on the right track, let me read from Isaiah 40. I'll begin reading in verse 12. Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains and scales and the hills in a balance. Who has measured the spirit of the Lord, Or what man shows him counsel?

Joel Brooks: 08:04

Whom did God consult and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice and taught him knowledge and showed him the way of understanding. Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket and are accounted as dust on the scales. Behold, he he takes up the coast lands like fine dust. Down to verse 18, to whom will you liken God, or what likeness compare him?

Joel Brooks: 08:41

An idol? A craftsman cast it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and cast it for silver chains. Do you not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told you from the beginning?

Joel Brooks: 08:58

Have you not stood from the foundation of the earth? It is God who sits above the circle of the earth. Its inhabitants are like grasshoppers. Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them like a tent to dwell in? Who brings princes to nothing, who makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.

Joel Brooks: 09:24

Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth when he blows on them and they wither and the tempest carries them off like stubble. To whom then will you compare God? To whom will you compare me? That I should be like him, says the holy one. Lift up your eyes on high and see who created these.

Joel Brooks: 09:53

He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name. By the greatness of his might and because he is strong in power, not one is missing. I think it's appropriate to read from Psalm 40. Actually, you could look at any of the forties if you want to look at the sovereignty of God. For 10 years of my life, I read a little bit from the Psalm or Isaiah 40s every day.

Joel Brooks: 10:24

And the reason I did is because a long time I struggled with the sovereignty of God. What I believe now is certainly not what I believed 20 years ago. God has taken me on quite a journey. If I had met myself 20 years ago, we would have had a knock down drag out fight. And probably the 20 year old Joel would have would beat me.

Joel Brooks: 10:47

But we would not have we would not have agreed. We would not at all seen eye to eye on this issue. And so this has been a journey for me. But it's one that I have thought a lot about. The question I want to start with when thinking about God's sovereignty is this.

Joel Brooks: 11:07

Who is governing the affairs of the world today? Who is governing the affairs of the world today? Is it God? Is it the devil? Is it man?

Joel Brooks: 11:27

Is it no one? Is it, kind of like professional wrestling? You know, it's a mix of of kind of everything. There there there's a loose plan, but there's still some some real physical involvement by multiple parties. Who is governing the affairs of the world?

Joel Brooks: 11:45

And another way that we can ask this is this way. Was the creation of the world the end to God's purpose in creating it? Was the creation of the world the end to God's purpose creating it? Or did God create the world in order to rule it? To govern it.

Joel Brooks: 12:10

Did God have a plan when he created the world? And if he had a plan, a plan can only be executed if he has control. An observer can't execute a plan. Only one who is in control of the situation. So did God have a plan when he created the earth?

Joel Brooks: 12:33

Here's a few texts, and I'll try not to bog you down with just tons, but I do want us to keep pointing back to the word. Colossians 116. For by God, all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things.

Joel Brooks: 13:02

And in him, all things hold together. So here Paul is saying to the Colossians that God created everything, and everything was created through him or by his hand or by his word. And everything was created for him. And so God created everything for a purpose, his purpose. Ephesians 111.

Joel Brooks: 13:27

In him, we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. So here we see that everything that happens happens according to the counsel of God's will or according to His plan. The Psalmist say it this way. Psalm 115 says, our God is in heaven. He does whatever he pleases.

Joel Brooks: 13:54

Psalm 1356, whatever the Lord pleases, he does in heaven and on Earth and sea and in their depths. Matter of fact, that's a good definition of God. God is the one who could do whatever he pleases. And he does whatever he pleases. There is nothing that he pleases that he doesn't do.

Joel Brooks: 14:14

That's what it means to be God. Everything that happens, happens because God wants it to happen. Isaiah 46. Remember the former things of old, for I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is none like me.

Joel Brooks: 14:36

Declaring the end from the beginning and from the ancient times, things not yet done, saying, my counsel will stand. I will accomplish all my purpose. There God says, I start things. I end things. The in between is all goes according to my purpose.

Joel Brooks: 15:02

We'll just do one more. Romans 11, for from him and through him and to him are all things. That's it's a short but very comprehensive verse. From him, through him, to him are all things. All things.

Joel Brooks: 15:28

That means for your life came from Him. Through Him. Your life is through Him, which means He sustains every aspect of your life. And your life will be lived out in a way that He will receive glory. Glory will go to Him.

Joel Brooks: 15:44

So your life is from Him. It is through Him. And it is to Him. And all things are this way. The creation of the world is this way.

Joel Brooks: 15:55

Hurricanes are this way. Hurricanes come from God. God sustains them. And they end up glorifying him. All things from him, through him, and to him.

Joel Brooks: 16:12

Now not to put too fine of a point on God's sovereignty, but I thought maybe we could just walk through some of the things that scripture explicitly says that God is sovereign over. 1st, we'll look at the inanimate objects of creation. By that, I mean things like stars, rocks. God God put every star in place. He put the sun in orbit.

Joel Brooks: 16:41

He put the planets in orbit. He's the one who causes the rain to fall. God controls all the inanimate things. And there are just way too many verses to share concerning this. So let me just, I'll just point out one, because I love it.

Joel Brooks: 16:59

I have a painting of this at our house. It's of Jesus calming the storm. And Jesus is in a boat and he's facing a hurricane, an inanimate object, a force of this world. And he just says, be quiet and stay quiet. And it calms down.

Joel Brooks: 17:16

And Jesus can command the wind and the waves. And Jesus can still command the wind and the waves. If Jesus had wanted to, with Katrina coming or with own He never gave up that control. They're in his hands. 2nd, we'll look at how God is sovereign over animate objects of creation.

Joel Brooks: 17:49

Once again, there's just so many. The plagues of Egypt, you know, He causes the locusts to come. He causes the frogs to come. He causes ravens to come and to feed Elijah out in the desert. My favorite example of this is, he he tells Peter to go and catch a fish and get a coin out of it so he could pay the temple tax.

Joel Brooks: 18:09

So, you know, he uses even fish, for his purposes. Jesus himself says that not a sparrow falls to the ground. Not a hair of your head falls to the ground apart from his command. 3rd, we see God is sovereign over calamity. Let me read to you from Lamentations 3.

Joel Brooks: 18:36

Who has spoken and it came to pass unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the most high that good and bad come? Isaiah 45, God says this. I form light and create darkness. I make well-being, and I create calamity.

Joel Brooks: 19:03

I, the Lord, do all of these things. An example of this that you can see is throughout the book of Amos, where God tells Amos, I'm the one who withheld rain from you. I'm the one who struck your crops with blight and mildew. I am the one who sent you pestilence. And I am the one who killed your young men by bringing in another nation to slaughter them.

Joel Brooks: 19:29

So I'm even using an entire another nation to do this evil act all because it is according to my purpose. I'm in control of this. Now, this could be a problem for some people, God causing wars or God causing natural disasters. But if you read through scripture, there simply is no wiggle room around that. It it it is is clear as you can be.

Joel Brooks: 20:02

For me, I I personally find that a great comfort that God is in control over calamities. I lost my dad when I was 20 years old. He died of a heart attack. And, he was at our house. He was in our driveway.

Joel Brooks: 20:23

My mom had called the paramedics, and the paramedics wouldn't come. And so she and other people, neighbors over there, and they're all trying to call the paramedics. The paramedics would not come. So after about 20 minutes of continually calling, being on the phone with them saying they're on their way, they're on the way, we just we know something's wrong because the paramedics are less than a mile from our house. That's where they are stationed.

Joel Brooks: 20:49

The fire station is less than a mile from our house, and yet they still wouldn't come. So some of our neighbors actually went and physically got the paramedics and brought them to our house. And when they got to the drive, 30 minutes later, my dad died as they got there. And so there were a lot of things that play there. And at the funeral, some very well intentioned people would come up to me and say, you know, God just we know that God would not would not ever do this.

Joel Brooks: 21:30

And they would mean that as a way of comforting me. And so, so I don't wanna be too hard on them because they were they were saying that as a comfort. But I wanted to say, alright. So so you're saying God, he he couldn't were his hands tied? I mean, he he couldn't get the right switch and the telephone to work.

Joel Brooks: 21:56

God can't do that. And yet you're asking me to place my eternal soul in his hands and trust him for all of eternity. And he gets his wires crossed on telephones, that is no comfort. The comfort is knowing that in that situation in which it seemed like things were being thwarted and thwarted and thwarted, God was in complete control. And he's got a plan.

Joel Brooks: 22:25

I might not understand it, but he was in complete control, governing every situation. And I can rest in that knowing that God is good. And I can still trust him. There is your comfort. So the sovereignty of God in the midst of terrible situations, it shouldn't make you shake your fist and be like, why couldn't you do anything?

Joel Brooks: 22:45

No. You trust. He is doing something even if you don't understand it. Let's look at I don't know what number we're at. We'll say 4, 5.

Joel Brooks: 22:59

God is sovereign over men or humans, sovereign over women, too. This is the one that usually gets the most objections. It's interesting. You could talk with people. And they're like, does God control the stars?

Joel Brooks: 23:16

Absolutely. Does God control cattle? Absolutely. Does God control the wind and the rain? Absolutely.

Joel Brooks: 23:24

No. Go on to everything. Does God control you? No way. There's no way.

Joel Brooks: 23:28

And there's this we we kind of want to bow up against this. I bowed up against this. I'd fight you tooth and nail over this at one point. Let me read you just a couple of verses. There's many, but I'll read you just a few.

Joel Brooks: 23:44

Proverbs 211, the king's heart is a stream of water in the hands of the Lord. He turns it wherever he wills. And so here, they're using the king as an example, because if God can just kind of do this with the king's heart, moving wherever he wants, he can do that to you. Proverbs 1921 says, many are the plans in the mind of man, but it's the purpose of the Lord that will stand. So go ahead, think, plan, do whatever you want to do.

Joel Brooks: 24:18

But you know what? God's will is going to be done. All right? And so here we see that God is sovereign over our will. And this is something that can be hard to swallow, that he's over our will, because it seems to eliminate free will.

Joel Brooks: 24:39

And free will is something that we think we almost hold synonymous with being human. To be human is to have free will. And we could talk more about this in the Q and A time. But let me just say this, that free will is not talked about in the Bible. It's a presupposition we bring into the Bible.

Joel Brooks: 25:03

But it's it's not spelled out for you anywhere there. It might be right. It might not be right. But just know that that is something we carry into it, not something that's taught. Also, I would say that no one no one here ever makes a decision that is free.

Joel Brooks: 25:26

Every decision you make has external pressures, the your health, where you were born, the types of parents you have, all of those things are forces at work in your life leading you in different ways. So you can never be free of those forces. You can't. You can never truly be free. And that like, well, it's like those things never happen.

Joel Brooks: 25:58

Well, I'm a guy. I'm white. I was born in America. Those things happen. They are.

Joel Brooks: 26:05

It's not like I can ever be free of those and those guide the way I live and I make decisions. And you know what? God controlled every one of those things. God controls all the forces that influence my decisions. Sometimes he controls my decisions indirectly, sometimes directly.

Joel Brooks: 26:26

Let's go back to scripture. One of the things we do see clearly in scripture is whenever God's will meets man's will, God wins. Whenever God's will meets man will, God wins. You can see this in stories like the parable Jesus would give about the rich man who kept building barns after bigger barns. And he says, yes, I'm going to make my plans.

Joel Brooks: 26:59

And God goes, no, you're not. I'm killing you right now. That man had a will. This is what I'm going to do. And God goes, no, you're not.

Joel Brooks: 27:09

God's will, man's will collide. God wins. We see this in James and his letter when he says, come now, you who say today or tomorrow, we're going to go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit. Yet you don't know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life?

Joel Brooks: 27:29

You're just a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, if the Lord wills, we'll live and we will do this or that. That's the mind of man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps. That's all that is right there. Why would you ever make a plan?

Joel Brooks: 27:50

You can't accomplish anything unless the Lord actually wills it. It doesn't matter what you will. It's what the Lord wills that counts. Let's move on. Let's look at God's sovereignty and our salvation.

Joel Brooks: 28:09

God is sovereign over our salvation. Once again, this is a collision of wills. If you don't want to be saved and God wants you to be saved, are you going to be saved? The answer is yes. Yes.

Joel Brooks: 28:34

An obvious example of this, and it's so obvious you almost don't want to bring it up, but it's the Apostle Paul. Paul wasn't looking to be saved. He wasn't looking to find Jesus. He was looking to kill people who believed in Jesus. And God just meets him on the road, saves him.

Joel Brooks: 28:55

His will met God's will. God's will won. And, I would bet if I were to sit down and talk with each one of you, you might not have. Okay. We probably all wouldn't have as dramatic of a conversion story.

Joel Brooks: 29:11

But I bet you would describe something very similar. You would say something about how God showed himself to you. I don't know. God just he became real to me. I heard the same things over and over, and there was nothing.

Joel Brooks: 29:33

But one time I heard it, and you know what? God just showed up. And He said, here I am. And He forgave me. And He saved me.

Joel Brooks: 29:43

Now did you just was this just a cognitive thing that you just eventually came to? Were you just pursuing God for so many years and then he happened to stumble into him or did God find you and to God save you? When conversion happens, we say that God changes our hearts. He draws us to himself in something I would call irresistible grace. This is what John or Jesus talks about in John 6 when he says, you know, that no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.

Joel Brooks: 30:21

And that word draw is drag. It's the same word that was used to describe Paul after he was stoned and he was dragged out of the city when he was unconscious, thought to be dead. No one comes to God unless grabbed and pull towards him. God saves. And I think when I when if I were to sit down and talk with you about your salvation you would you would agree with that And I bet if I were to ask you how you pray, I bet almost every person here would affirm that as well.

Joel Brooks: 30:58

And maybe we could define the terms Calvinism and Arminianism later. But I found that everybody praise like a Calvinist. And what I mean by that is praying like God's will wins. If you have someone, a friend who's lost, I bet you pray this way for them. God, change their heart.

Joel Brooks: 31:23

Well, what you just prayed is, God, I know what He wants to do or she wants to do. I know what His, her will is. But I'm asking you to override it. God, change your heart. God, draw this person to yourself.

Joel Brooks: 31:38

God, I know what they want to do. They want to run that way. But I'm asking you to grab them and pull them towards yourself. I'm asking you not to honor their free will, not to honor their decisions. Instead, I want you to override those things and pull them to yourself.

Joel Brooks: 31:50

You're praying very Calvinistically. I don't like to use that word, but as if you believe God is the one who saves, that he is sovereign over salvation. And that's just that's a natural outpouring of our heart when we pray that way. I believe God set up salvation like this. If you want to turn to 1st Corinthians, I just realized I've been reading having got you guys to turn anywhere.

Joel Brooks: 32:18

1st Corinthians 1, verse 26, Paul says this consider your calling brothers. Not many of you were wise according to worldly standards. Not many were powerful. Not many were of noble birth, but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise. God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong.

Joel Brooks: 32:50

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And later says it says let the money boasts boast in the Lord. And this is why God set up salvation this way in which he chooses. He set it up where he was going to choose weak people, pathetic people. That's who he was going to choose to be his children, his choice.

Joel Brooks: 33:21

And he set it up this way so that nobody can ever boast and say, look what I did. And so he did it to promote humility so that we would be quiet in the praise of ourselves, but we would be open up and we would our lips would rejoice and praise the Lord. We would boast in him. That's why God set up salvation this way. And let me tell you what, when Jesus thought of this, I I I love this verse.

Joel Brooks: 33:49

It's in Luke 10. I brought my wrong bible here. Do y'all have, like, your special bible that, you might not know the verse, but you know where it is on a page? I've got that. Left it at home.

Joel Brooks: 34:03

Luke 10/21. Says in that same hour, this is Jesus here, Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit. And they stop right there. Only time in scripture Jesus says this. Nowhere else is he ever described as being full of joy or rejoicing in the Holy Spirit.

Joel Brooks: 34:29

So something has happened that tickles him pink. That just has made him giddy. And so he is just delighting in this. What is it? I thank you, Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and the understanding and you revealed them to little children.

Joel Brooks: 34:55

Yes, father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my father and no one knows who the son is except the father or who the father is except the son and anyone to whom the son chooses to reveal him. So you know what makes Jesus like just giddy here is when he thinks of what Paul thought about in 1st Corinthians 1. He's like, didn't choose the mighty, didn't choose the strong, didn't choose the intelligent, but just chose little kids. And I chose them to be saved.

Joel Brooks: 35:37

And they're only saved because I chose them, And he rejoices in that. He laughs. I tell you what, for longest time when I thought of those things, God's sovereignty over salvation, it did the exact opposite. It made me want to curse God, not rejoice in him. I actually came to believe that very begrudgingly.

Joel Brooks: 36:04

I can remember being on my knees and saying, God, all right. I believe this, but I don't like it. I don't. But it's scripture was it was like this avalanche of scripture and it overwhelmed me. And God began changing my heart more and more to I would say there is nothing I would rather ascribe to God than his sovereignty and salvation.

Joel Brooks: 36:27

Nothing produces joy in me like that. Now, of course, not everybody's going to agree with this view. There there's many, probably a number here who would believe that they would either believe this, that when man's will and God's will hit that God that man's will can prevail, you can resist God and not give God his way. Or there might be some who believe that God voluntarily restrains himself in order to give man the upper hand, Maybe to to let man do what he wants, and God will take a back seat. That's called Armenianism.

Joel Brooks: 37:13

Do I need to I mean, this is up to you all. We could do this either in q and a, or I could take time and do this now. Do you want me to define Calvinism and Armenianism for y'all? Would that be helpful, not helpful? Are y'all alive?

Joel Brooks: 37:26

It's like I've never seen a zombie thing before, but I'm starting to believe. All right. Well, just real quick, I'll go through. There's 2 major camps of thought when it comes concerning God and salvation. We'll start with a man named Jacob Arminianus.

Joel Brooks: 37:46

Yes, Arminianus. He died in 16/09. And his followers, he spearheaded this. But then his followers really formulated something called, they wrote something called the remonstrance, which articulated 5 points that went against what the Church believed concerning God's sovereignty and salvation. So the church had been believing this.

Joel Brooks: 38:12

And he said, I disagree. These are 5 things I disagree on. And I was in 16/09. And he was from Holland. And the 5 points were this.

Joel Brooks: 38:24

They're an unusual order. Let me see if I can remember the order. I can't remember the order. First man is not completely fallen, that there's still not only some good in man, but man can choose to do good, can even choose God. That would be 1.

Joel Brooks: 38:47

2nd, there is no such thing as election. God does not choose a select few. God's choice, His predestination, you will, depends on his foreknowledge. And so election works this way. God can see into the future.

Joel Brooks: 39:09

And he looked into the future and let we'll just use me as an example. Says, hey, Joel's going to come to know Jesus as his Lord and savior. And since I can see that he will choose me, I now predestined him to choose me. That's Arminianism. So I would not choose because I'm predestined.

Joel Brooks: 39:30

It would be because I choose God now predestined me. So he switched. Does that make sense? He switched the order of those around. So God's predestination is based on his foreknowledge.

Joel Brooks: 39:44

3rd, God, when Jesus died on the cross, that that redemption is for everybody who believes. I shouldn't find Calvinists really don't believe anything different than that, but we'll look at that later. His 4th point was that grace can be resisted. Often we do resist God. And the final point, some of those debate as to whether he really taught this or not, but that you could lose your salvation.

Joel Brooks: 40:16

It's kind of a logical deduction of the others and most think he did teach this. But basically, if salvation was up to you, so if you're the one who got your salvation, you're the one who could lose your salvation. If it is at any part up to you, you got it. You you know, think of it as a lifeline. If you could if you're the one who has to reach out and grab onto the lifeline, you can also let go of the lifeline.

Joel Brooks: 40:37

You simply can't believe in what saved always saved if you're Armenian. So the Church reacted against that and a fancy council they call the Synod. I don't know why we don't do that anymore. The Synod of Dort. And they came up with their own 5 points against these 5 points of Arminianism.

Joel Brooks: 41:02

And what they were doing was reaffirming what they considered to be the gospel, what the church had believed. So Jacob Arminius had departed from it. And now they're these 5 points are the counterpoints to that. And as known as the 5 points of Calvinism, Just know that that's a reaction to Armenianism. It wasn't come up first.

Joel Brooks: 41:24

And it spells TULIP. T would be total depravity, which means that, hey, you are dead in your sin. Actually, your spiritual condition is you're blind. You're deaf. You are dead.

Joel Brooks: 41:37

And so you cannot choose God. A matter of fact, choosing God is a work and you're not saved by works. God has to be the one that gives you faith. And so, Ephesians 2 is is crucial in that in which you are saved by grace through faith. And it is not of yourselves.

Joel Brooks: 41:57

The faith you have is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. You would be unconditional election, and that just means that God predestined some to salvation a certain fixed number. L, which is a horrible name for this, but limited atonement, which basically means that on the cross, redemption was purchased for a limited number of people not for everyone. Y'all can ask me more about that if you want to know the difference the real differences between limited atonement and Armenianism and Calvinism.

Joel Brooks: 42:38

4th, whatever we have to eye irresistible grace is that when God draws you, you come. Yeah, you can temporarily resist His will. But when it comes to salvation, when your will hits God will, God wins. You know, just a verse, act 16. I I like this when it says, the Lord opened up Lydia's heart to respond.

Joel Brooks: 43:05

It's like she probably resisted, but then all sudden, boom, opened up, changed heart. She now responds. And then finally, perseverance of the saints. I like to say preservation of the saints. And that's whom God chooses.

Joel Brooks: 43:20

Those who are saved, God will preserve until the end. Once saved, always saved. Alright. So those are 5 points, Armenianism, 5 points, Calvinism. It's a very brief description of those.

Joel Brooks: 43:32

I would consider myself a Calvinist on all of this. Let's take a break here because it's already 753. And, and that gives you time to think about some questions. And, we'll just we'll just take a few minute break. And that way, we have a good hour of q and a.

Joel Brooks: 43:47

All right? I I hope now that y'all have all gotten your second margarita or beer that the discussion is spirited. I'm I'm a step down intellectually from, doctor Mark Gillette last coffee house. So you could be kind to me. There's a lot of things I didn't get to address, because I knew that, I mean, you guys would be thinking even as I was talking through it.

Joel Brooks: 44:20

Yeah. But what about this? Or, yeah. What about this? And so I wanted to give time for us to ask those, yeah.

Joel Brooks: 44:25

What what about this verse here? So if there's, a certain passage of scripture, a certain verse that, that you have a question about, you know, ask about that. If you want anything else explained more fully. You know, whether it's one of the points of of Calvinism, just, you know, explain that more or, sovereignty of God in prayer or the sovereignty of God in evangelism or, are there 2 wills with God or or anything like that? Just feel free to ask.

Joel Brooks: 44:55

If I don't know the answer, I promise you, I don't like hearing myself talk. And so I will just say I don't know. That's a great question. Because I haven't mastered any of this by by any means. But if I can help in some ways, I'll I'll try.

Joel Brooks: 45:14

So, you all have any questions right off the bat here? I'll repeat the questions. Is it everybody. So So it's kinda along the lines of why do I get up and get out of everything? Yeah.

Joel Brooks: 45:58

Yeah. The the question is about choices and tell me if I get this right, is you know really what's going to motivate me to make any any choices? What's going to motivate me to do things? And I guess I can answer that in particular in a number of ways, you know, like what what will motivate me to evangelize if, you know, people are already it's already set. What what motivates me to pray if, well, God's will is already set?

Joel Brooks: 46:28

Similarly, I would compare that question with when people used to respond to Paul, well, why do any works if you're saved by grace? I don't get it. Give me a motivation. Otherwise, I'm just not gonna do any works because people needed something other than God saying do good works. You know?

Joel Brooks: 46:52

And so honestly, Jesus saying, go into all the nations and make disciples, he commands us. That should be enough Or that He tells us to pray, that should be enough. But realizing that we're humans, we like to have some motivation other than God's explicit command. And I guess I guess the question is, do our choices matter even in a sense? And I would say yes, they do.

Joel Brooks: 47:20

You know, Proverbs says, you know, the mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his step. What's the other one from Proverbs? Is, yeah, turn to Proverbs 16. There's 2 in Proverbs 16 that I just think are helpful. The Bible, when it comes to us making choices and predestination is is so nuanced.

Joel Brooks: 47:44

It is far more complicated than any other religious or philosophical system out there. So Proverbs 16:1 says, the plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. And then we read, you know, also just 9 in verse 9, the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. And here he's saying, like, the choices you make are your choices. They're yours.

Joel Brooks: 48:19

But also know that it was determined by God. Now, how in the world did those 2 things meet? I'm not sure. A great way I see this is when you look at the difference between Matthew and Mark and when Jesus was led out into the wilderness, Matthew says Jesus was led out to the wilderness by the Spirit. Mark says Jesus was driven out into the wilderness by the Spirit.

Joel Brooks: 48:43

So one is, oh, he heard God's call and he followed. The other is he was pushed out there. Which is it? It's like, well, it's both. It's like Jesus chose, but why did he choose?

Joel Brooks: 48:57

Well, it's because he had a heart that, you know, for us, if that was our situation, a heart that God gave us that wanted to follow him. And so ultimately, like we freely chose to do this. Why do we freely choose to do this? Because God changed our heart to do that. And so that's the only mode like the motivation.

Joel Brooks: 49:15

Like why do you choose things? Well, your choices do matter. God still does get glory out of those things. Let me see if I can somebody will probably ask this, even unpack this concerning evangelism. Why share your faith if it's already determined?

Joel Brooks: 49:38

That's a question that early church never struggled with. It's a question the modern church struggles with. Actually, some of the best missionaries, the earliest missionaries we had were, I mean, they were calvinists to the core. William Carey, you know, father of modern missions. David Livingston, you know, who you have on his tombstone.

Joel Brooks: 50:00

There are other sheep that are not of this fold. You know, and he was a Calvinist. And I would compare it this way. And if you've been part of Redeemer, you've heard me share this before. Think of it when when after the flood, God promised Noah this, said, Noah, never again am I going to destroy things with a flood.

Joel Brooks: 50:22

There will always be a springtime. There will always be a harvest. You have my word. There will always be a harvest. Now Noah could have said, great.

Joel Brooks: 50:32

Got out the lazy boy, kick back and be like, God just promised me a harvest. But instead he took God's promise to go to work. First thing he did was he picked up a plow and he planted a vineyard. That's how you see evangelism. And that God has promised and declared that there's some out there.

Joel Brooks: 50:50

Now go get them. And we have the confidence to do this. Another example I would say is in acts 27 when Paul was in the boat that was about to be shipwrecked, an angel went to Paul and said, Hey, Paul, just so you know, not one person here is going to die. So he had God's word. Nobody's gonna die.

Joel Brooks: 51:10

So Paul could have just kicked back and gone to sleep, but instead he actually takes over. He's like, alright guys, I need all of you to eat. I need you to get your strength up, you know, for the big swim. Roman soldiers are about to kill people to the, slaves. He goes, No, if you kill one person, they're all gonna die.

Joel Brooks: 51:27

Where do you get that from? You know, God just promised nobody's gonna die. And what he was doing, he was taking God's promise, God's sovereign promise, and it was enabling him with confidence to work, to make choices. If God was not in control, could you imagine how crippled you would be when you got up and you thought everything depended on your choice? Because let me tell you what, you screwed up a long time ago.

Joel Brooks: 51:54

And if your life is amazed that you have to try to figure out, you're hopelessly lost. Okay. Good question. Marty. Yeah.

Joel Brooks: 52:27

The draw near to God and he'll draw near to you or I mean you could go into any command but God Choose you this day whom you will serve. You know you make this. If you don't choose this then I won't love you. If you do choose this, I will love you. I mean there seems to be so much that's dependent upon our action.

Joel Brooks: 52:44

And and I would see it this way and I'll we'll go to a text. You you go and turn to first second chronicles 30. If you wanna look there, we'll look at that in just a second. It's very similar to Jesus telling the guy with a withered hand, stretch out your hand. He was incapable of doing it, but through the power of God.

Joel Brooks: 53:04

And when God says, Follow me, you're incapable of doing it. If it wasn't for the power of God, it's no different than when Jesus told dead Lazarus come forth. He's dead, but he came forth. And so there's still the command for you to do, but who enables the command? Who warms your heart to do that?

Joel Brooks: 53:25

And so Saint Augustine described it this way because he realized he was a guy who was com most people don't know but he was completely and totally addicted to sex. He was a sex addict. He was enslaved to it. And he knew God's law. He knew what God was commanding and he knew he couldn't do it.

Joel Brooks: 53:42

And so he said, God command what you wish, but give what you command. So God, if you're gonna tell me to follow you, give me the heart to follow you. He understood he couldn't do it unless God gave him that heart. So let's look at, second did I say second Chronicles 30? This is the one that popped in my head.

Joel Brooks: 54:04

It's a good paradigm, for thinking through these things. Let's let's begin in verse 6. Plus if you all know me, you know I like pulling out some obscure text. This this is during the time of Hezekiah and let me we'll just read it. So couriers went throughout all Israel and Judah with letters from the king and his princes as the king had commanded saying, oh people of Israel, return to the Lord.

Joel Brooks: 54:37

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. That he may turn again to the remnant of you. Sounds very much like draw near to God. He will draw near to you right there. Verse 7.

Joel Brooks: 54:50

Do not be like your fathers and your brothers who were faithless to the Lord, God of their fathers so that he made them a desolation as you see. Do not now be stiff necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the Lord and come to a sanctuary which he has consecrated forever and serve the Lord your God that his fierce anger may turn away from you. For if you return to the Lord, your brothers and your children will find compassion for their captors and return to this land. For the Lord your God is gracious and merciful, and he will not turn away his face from you if you return to him. Draw near to God, He will draw near to you.

Joel Brooks: 55:25

If you do this, he will return to you. Very conditional language. And if that's all you would have, you would think like, okay there's this great, you know, pressure. Okay, we gotta do this. Then you read on.

Joel Brooks: 55:38

So the couriers went from city to city throughout the country of Ephraim and Manasseh and as far as Zebulon, but they laughed them to scorn and mock them. However, some men of Asher and Manasseh and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. Verse 12 is key. The hand of god was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the Lord. So there's that conditional language.

Joel Brooks: 56:07

You gotta return. Draw near to God, he'll draw near to you. They can't do it unless what? The hand of the Lord is upon them, enabling them to do that. And so you always see that nobody comes to the father unless the father draws him.

Joel Brooks: 56:21

And so you should see Joel near to God in that light. Good question. Yeah every everybody could turn there. 1st Timothy 24. There there are certain, I guess you would call them pillar Armenian text.

Joel Brooks: 56:51

That would be one of them. 1st Timothy 24. You you also have, well, I might get to that 2nd Peter 39 and Ezekiel 18. Alright. First Timothy 2 24.

Joel Brooks: 57:09

Let me read it. My bible is not where it's supposed to be. 24. Thank you. I'm like 224.

Joel Brooks: 57:15

There we go. Alright. I'll go back 1 to verse 3. This is good and is pleasing in the sight of God, our savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Couple of ways I want to explain this.

Joel Brooks: 57:31

First is just go over to to second Timothy, where there is the parallel 2nd Timothy 2 versus 24. Because that's the same phrase here. Let me just make sure I have this right. 2nd Timothy 2. Yes, 24.

Joel Brooks: 57:58

Says, and Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but be kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness, God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. So here you have in 1st Timothy saying that God doesn't wish that anybody should perish but all should come to knowledge of the truth. And then in 2nd Timothy it says, God himself may grant that to them. So recognizing that God is the one who gives it to people. Alright.

Joel Brooks: 58:25

So even right there, this is the same thing as we just saw on 2nd Chronicles 30. God is the one who has to initiate this. But whether you're a Calvinist or Armenian and just looking at that text, or let's say 2nd Peter 39, I have it right here. God is not willing that any should perish, but all should reach repentance. Or Ezekiel 18, I do not delight in the death of one who dies, says the Lord.

Joel Brooks: 58:52

So turn to me and live. Whenever you look at any of those texts, whether an Armenian or Calvinist, you have a problem because an Armenian is going to look at that says that God does not wish that any should perish and you would ask them do people perish? They'd be like, well, yes. They don't believe most Armenians and Jacob Armenians didn't believe that everybody went to heaven, everybody was saved. And so what you have to say is, okay, well, God apparently wills something more than He wills that none should perish.

Joel Brooks: 59:27

What does he will more than that? You what you're gonna do is you're gonna have to break up God's will into 2 wills. And whether you're Calvinist or Armenian, you have to do this. And Arminian say, okay God really wants to do this, but you know what he wants more? He wants us to have free choice.

Joel Brooks: 59:43

And so he'll honor free choice more than he will honor wanting everybody to be saved. And a calvinist would say, well, you're right that God does want something more than wanting all people to save. What God wants is for his glory to be displayed in both wrath and in mercy. He wants both of those things demonstrated. And He wants that more than all people saved.

Joel Brooks: 01:00:07

But you have to divide up God's will into 2 different things. There's God, he's capable of a lot of emotions. Just Just think if everybody here in this room were to pray to God right now, God can hear every one of these your emotions, multiply that by the world and so you have 100 of millions of people praying to God at the same time. And yet he's weeping with those who weep and he's rejoicing with those who rejoice. He's capable of all these things.

Joel Brooks: 01:00:33

Psalm 7 says that he is angry with sin all day long. Yet he rejoices when people come to repentance. So he's angry all the time and he's rejoicing all the time. God God's he's not like you were me. All right?

Joel Brooks: 01:00:48

He has very complicated emotions. And God can have 2 wills in which God can will something here. I wish none that perish. But you know what I will even more than this is this action here. And for instance like even in the Ezekiel, let me read that again.

Joel Brooks: 01:01:07

Ezekiel 18 says I do not delight in the death of the one who dies. We looked at this when we studied the life of David. In 2nd Samuel 2, Eli's sons, it says, the Lord delighted to put them to death. I mean, it's the exact same word as you find in Ezekiel 18. Here God doesn't delight in anybody dying and here's like He desired to put them to death and He wouldn't allow them to listen and repent.

Joel Brooks: 01:01:35

So you have these 2 wills of God. Sometimes he's willing this and sometimes he's willing that. The theological terms for it are the revealed will of God and the hidden will of God. Or the moral will of God, like do not murder, yet murder happens. Why did it happen?

Joel Brooks: 01:01:52

Well, it was according to the will of God. Now let me just use one example. More example. Hopefully flesh that out. Look at the death of Jesus.

Joel Brooks: 01:02:01

Everything that happened to Jesus was evil and wrong. Every blow to his face, every spit, every nail that was driven through it. And when Peter gets up to preach and acts 4, he says, everything here happened according to the predetermined plan of God. So one hand God says, That's wrong. That's evil.

Joel Brooks: 01:02:21

And then the other hand, He planned it all. So he has these 2 wills. This hidden secret will that he's working behind his revealed will. I know that's complicated. Once again, this this isn't easy.

Joel Brooks: 01:02:34

It doesn't matter if you're Armenian or Calvinist. You gotta understand those two things about God's will. Hopefully, that made sense. Alright. Corvo.

Joel Brooks: 01:02:46

Sort of. I just wanna hear you yell because I never have. Okay. The perseverance of the saints with seed falling on the soil. Okay.

Joel Brooks: 01:03:11

Is that is that the the question there? Alright. Well let me just most people completely misunderstand that parable to the start. Because when you ask them, okay, so who's the Christian? Like what is the Christian?

Joel Brooks: 01:03:25

Well the Christian is the one with the good soil, period. And what the gospel does is it reveals what is good soil. The Christian isn't like there is not the plant that grows. No, that's the fruit that grows. The Christian is actually the good soil and all the the gospel when it spread out is it is it reveals which is good soil.

Joel Brooks: 01:03:48

And whichever is the good soil is gonna have the lasting fruit. And so that's how you should see it. It's very similar to, when Jesus says, my sheep hear my voice. They don't hear his voice and become his sheep, which is how an Armenian would say it. You hear, you respond, then you become.

Joel Brooks: 01:04:08

No, he says, no, they're actually out there. They're sheep And when the gospel goes forth and they hear my voice, they follow me. And it's the same thing here. The parable is there's different types of soil. You throw the gospel and you know what?

Joel Brooks: 01:04:22

The ones that land on the heart that's been prepared, the one that I've changed responds appropriately. And so there's only one there that's the Christian and that's the one that's the the good soil. Does that make sense? Okay. Matt.

Joel Brooks: 01:04:40

My question kinda notes with the songs you've got and sent. Okay. Yes. What does our own evil desires mean? Yeah.

Joel Brooks: 01:05:12

And you're you're gonna get at all of us are fallen and have inherited these evil desires. Now your evil actions can be ordained by God. Let's let's look at the crucifixion. Now if Pilate and Herod were doing those things in order to fulfill God's word, it would not have been evil, but it was the inclination of their heart and why they did it that made it evil. Alright?

Joel Brooks: 01:05:39

And so the action itself, it was the heart behind the action. So God had to ordain the action, but but the man's heart was was all on them. The the mind of man plans his ways, but the Lord directs the steps. He's going to use those actions, But but your heart and what you're thinking there, that's that's gonna be on you. It's your fallen and it's your sinful nature there.

Joel Brooks: 01:06:03

And you see God a number of times, and this is really it can disturb a person when they first read it. And I'll go back to for those of you aren't part of redeemer. We've been going through the life of David. We'll use David as an example. Alright.

Joel Brooks: 01:06:18

When David took the census in, 2nd Samuel, we'll say 28. That's a guess. Sorry. This wouldn't be 2nd Samuel. Yes.

Joel Brooks: 01:06:31

It's 2nd Samuel 28. It says that God sent a spirit. What's the language? I mean, you could look it up there. An evil spirit or a spirit basically to give them the desire to take a census.

Joel Brooks: 01:06:48

And it came from the Lord. And then when you get from the account of 1st Chronicles, they ascribe it to the devil because they didn't want God doing it, because certainly God wouldn't send a spirit like that. But it certainly seems like that God, like he hardened pharaoh's heart. He did that with David. And what I would say is God can do that.

Joel Brooks: 01:07:11

How it all works out, I'm not sure. I do know when David repented, he didn't point the finger at God. He said, I had sinned. And it's a very similar argument that you find in Romans 9 when Paul is explaining election and how God predestined that some people would would choose or not in your life. But but how can God hold him responsible?

Joel Brooks: 01:07:31

And he steps back and says, Who are you to talk about to God? So like is there's no injustice with God. But then he doesn't really further his answer. And you hate that, But God can, if he wants to, keep you from ever sinning again. There's times he does keep people from sinning.

Joel Brooks: 01:07:52

Genesis 20 when Abraham tells Sarah, his wife to lie and say, don't say you're my wife. Say you're my sister to King Abimelech because I don't want him to kill me. And so King Abimelech takes Sarah because he thinks it's Abraham's sister, gives Abraham tons of gifts, takes Sarah to be part of his harem, but yet he doesn't sleep with her. Why? He takes her to be part of his harem.

Joel Brooks: 01:08:14

He doesn't sleep with her. God says, Abimelech, I kept you from sinning. I withheld you from doing this. Basically, you wanted to. Your will was doing this, and I withheld you.

Joel Brooks: 01:08:29

And we do, a benediction like that all the time. That's just the benediction of Jude 4. Now to him who is able to keep you from falling or or stumbling, that's Genesis 20. I mean, that's what it is. God can keep you from sinning if he wants to.

Joel Brooks: 01:08:44

Go ahead in the back, Tammy. Okay. Yeah. I would say yes. Both.

Joel Brooks: 01:09:10

You certainly have Moses being a picture of of God interceding. You have Abraham interceding for Sodom and Gomorrah. And it's certainly a picture of interceding Christ interceding on our behalf. When we pray, and I think we had this at a q and a time at Redeemer, which just means God really in his sovereignty wants to reinforce this in you. We don't we don't change God's mind to some new action.

Joel Brooks: 01:09:43

We have already read a number of things like that. Who has been God's counselor? Isaiah 40, Isaiah 46, Romans 9. I mean, it just talks about who counsels God. So if you think of your prayer as counseling to God, hey, God, you know what?

Joel Brooks: 01:09:55

It'd be a good idea to heal this person. God, it'd be a really good idea if you did. I mean, that's how we think of our prayers. We spend a lot of our time giving him counsel. But then God says, nobody gives me counsel.

Joel Brooks: 01:10:06

I do what I want. So you can't see prayer that way. And if you could change God's mind, why the heck would you ever want to? And we looked at this that God's mind is our minds are changed for three reasons. 1, we can have a change of heart.

Joel Brooks: 01:10:28

You know, I could tell Lauren, honey, I'm sorry. I mean, I was a jerk. I didn't mean that. Yes. You know, you could go.

Joel Brooks: 01:10:35

I'll watch the kids while you go off or whatever argument was. I had to change your heart. 2, I came into some new resources. I was limited in my power, but all of a sudden I got new power, or new money. And so now I can buy that car I wanted, whereas before I couldn't.

Joel Brooks: 01:10:54

So limited by, by our our goodness. We could be limited by our power, or limited by our knowledge In which I didn't know all the details. Maybe I punished Caroline falsely because I didn't know everything. Then all of a sudden Natalie comes forward says, Daddy, she didn't do what I did. It's like, Oh, gosh.

Joel Brooks: 01:11:14

Well, in light of that, I'm so sorry. I gained new knowledge. So we change our minds all the time. God's not affected by any of those. God is always good.

Joel Brooks: 01:11:25

God has all the power and, and God knows everything. So why would we ever wanna change that? And and you've got to quit thinking of prayer that way. I I mean if you think of Lau really would like to change that even though he has all those things, then you're just dumb. I mean really.

Joel Brooks: 01:11:42

I mean that's just the that's just the dumbest thing. Instead, we want to ask God's Spirit to agree with him. God, lead us in this prayer. And sometimes we don't know his hidden will. We only know his revealed will.

Joel Brooks: 01:11:57

And so we pray his revealed will. For instance, if we're going to pray if God heals the sick, well, we know in heaven there is no sickness And that God took our infirmities on the cross. And so that's his revealed will. So we're gonna pray, God heal this person. We could passionately pray that because we don't know if his hidden will is, nope, I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna heal them here.

Joel Brooks: 01:12:21

But we always are trying to join in with God. And, and prayers the the way he accomplishes those things. He brings us in and he allows us to be a part of that. I hope that makes sense. Go ahead.

Joel Brooks: 01:12:59

Alright. The question is is trying to systematize thinking through his theology. Is that a way of, kind of diminishing what it really is? If I heard that right. Or you can't be a theory, I guess.

Joel Brooks: 01:13:11

Okay. We we have to use language to try to try to understand and under explain things. Language is is always going to fail us. Thinking through those issues and trying to come up with categories and systems for them has been a huge help to me. In my prayer life, in my evangelism.

Joel Brooks: 01:13:34

My evangelism exploded when I came to believe in the sovereignty of God and salvation, once I was able to think through those things. So I I I don't really have an answer for that. I I don't know. I think there's ways you can present it which are wrong. There's nothing more annoying than a new Calvinist.

Joel Brooks: 01:14:00

Sorry if there's new Calvinist out there. But because all of a sudden everything is Calvinism. It's like, I mean, everything is. You know, you're saying the blessing, God, thank you that before there was time, you ordained that I would have bread here in front of me. And you're like, give it a rest.

Joel Brooks: 01:14:19

But I'm trying to think. If you put Calvinism or, just using that loosely, we'll just say predestination in its proper place, man, it leads you to worship. And how I would do that is I would walk through Romans. And it's how John Calvin did in his institutes of the Christian religion. Most people don't know, Calvin's institutes of the christian religion is like 1500 pages long, less than 40 talk about predestination.

Joel Brooks: 01:14:46

It is the most devotional, beautiful work. It's very, very little about predestination in there. And yet it's all labeled him. And he organizes institutes like Paul organized Romans. And so when you're talking to people about God, and this is how you should systematize it.

Joel Brooks: 01:15:02

Romans is Paul's systematic theology, if you will. You start off with God created everything. He created everything good. We fell. We're all sinners.

Joel Brooks: 01:15:12

All fall short of the glory of God. But you know what, God provided a way. God justified us through Jesus. And now God is growing us in sanctification and that's where you're getting, you know, your Romans 6 and your Romans 7. And then you get and it's all gonna result in God's this glorious future.

Joel Brooks: 01:15:30

Those whom he called, he is certainly going to justify. He's certainly going to glorify. And so you you get all of the gospel and even our future glory all up to this point. Then he hits Romans 9. He hits predestination election.

Joel Brooks: 01:15:44

Because the question comes up, how can I be sure of that? How how how do I know I'm I'm not just gonna fall away? This is, well, because God's the one who saved you. God saved you. And then understanding election leads to Romans 12, which is about worship.

Joel Brooks: 01:16:05

Worship doesn't happen until Romans 12. Romans 9 through 11 are all about election. And so when you understand predestination, you understand election, it humbles you and it creates the proper posture or I would say the explosion of worship afterwards. And so and so if you follow that kind of system and thinking of it the way you would think of Romans or as Calvin did in his institutes, I think it's a very helpful system there. Just don't put predestination at Romans 1, you know, when you're talking to somebody.

Joel Brooks: 01:16:34

It's just not how you would do it. Good question. D. Yeah. I mean, like for instance, God would call the Israelites who stiff neck people always resisting.

Joel Brooks: 01:16:58

And so, yes, there is this. We're always resisting. That's not what irresistible grace is about. It's just that God, when he wants to, can do what I would call a sovereign grace. And it cannot be resisted.

Joel Brooks: 01:17:15

And that's when he, you know, he pulls you to himself. And, I love the way that Augustine described it. He called it sovereign joy. And and basically, God just also put this sovereignly. He put joy in his heart, changed his heart.

Joel Brooks: 01:17:29

And and Luther and Calvin both picked that up, that expression.

Connor Coskery: 01:17:48

Yeah. So what does that

Joel Brooks: 01:17:52

relationship the question is what what is the between God and like the the evil kingdom and what they're doing? Satan is a unwilling pawn. You should never ever think of like God and Satan are duking it out as almost equals, which is very unfortunate is how people kind of, think of it this way. I grew up reading this present darkness. Did y'all read those little fiction things?

Joel Brooks: 01:18:19

I can't remember who's the author of them now. And I remember very vividly the scene of there's a there's a car that's driving. It's about to go over the cliff. And it says that all on one side there was demons pushing it. And on the other side, there were angels pushing it this way.

Joel Brooks: 01:18:36

And it was all determined like who like if we could get enough people to pray, then the angels, good angels would win. And, I'm like, Oh, I got to pray. You know, I'm just you're you're it's like, what a what a sham. That that is not at all the biblical spiritual world there, in which everything Satan does, he's God's instrument. Job, you know, he did all those things to Job, and yet Job appropriately Lee said, though God, you slay me, though he's God slays me, I will I will trust you.

Joel Brooks: 01:19:12

So Satan did all the work, and then Job rightly ascribed it to God. God was the one who did the slaying to him. Basically, God used Satan as his tool. And, and I would say that Satan is always God's tool in that. He doesn't believe it.

Joel Brooks: 01:19:27

He thinks he could still fight for it. He thinks he could still win. He's utterly deceived. But there is no equal forces battling one another. I don't know if that's what you're

Connor Coskery: 01:19:41

I mean,

Joel Brooks: 01:19:47

But in

Connor Coskery: 01:19:47

terms of, is there any

Joel Brooks: 01:19:54

Yeah. Yeah. All that unleashed evil. I mean, we would go back to, you know, Lamentations. So just even like the well, the good and bad, everything comes from the mouth of Lord or Isaiah.

Joel Brooks: 01:20:13

I bring prosperity. I bring disaster. That word for disaster or calamity is evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. And, so God himself is the one who orchestrates and brings those things in.

Joel Brooks: 01:20:26

And what we need to do is look at him with a wide angle lens. When we look at it when that little narrow, we just see all this destruction because we don't see the ultimate plan. You know, God's point, he gets that way back there and it's like, oh, that's not devastation. That's surgical. You're making a little surgical incision here.

Joel Brooks: 01:20:44

When you look at the grand scheme of time here, you're healing or you're making this overall. You're working your plan. And so now I would say God is in control of all the evil that's unleashed. Never for a moment is God out of control. Anybody else?

Joel Brooks: 01:21:10

Okay. Okay. Okay. So the question is, how does it give God's glory to not grant salvation to everyone? Well, it's showing every facet of who God is.

Joel Brooks: 01:21:37

And so he is showing I mean, well, we could just read Romans 9. Let me read there. Because he he answers that exact question. Alright. When it talks about, okay.

Joel Brooks: 01:22:13

Here we go. Has not the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and one for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called. And so and he says, like, this is what God did. He he made some that, you know, will serve a dishonorable purpose and some an honorable purpose in order to just show his entire character, to show how how much he hates evil and how much he can be gracious here.

Joel Brooks: 01:23:01

I mean, he's I'm not God, so I'm not the one who sets us all up. And some, like, you know, a Carl Bart would disagree and say, no, everybody is saved. Wrath, which is a part of him, a part of his character. Wrath against evil. And he wants to be glorified in the demonstration of that.

Joel Brooks: 01:23:29

Go ahead. Okay. Yeah. I would say great joy. Because for 1, you're thinking that if you think that just like if you bringing something independent of God can somehow add to His joy, then you're not worshiping God because you're worshiping God who lack lack something or who can be added to.

Joel Brooks: 01:24:07

God can't be added to. You can't add joy to him. And so that's where you get the from him, through him, to him are all things. So even your ability to love him comes from him. C.

Joel Brooks: 01:24:19

S. Lewis wrote about this even when he, you know, the 6pence none the richer made into a song. It's like even every gift we give, well, that actually came from God's bank account. And so well, I can't. You can't compare it to that, because I'm not the highest good, but God is.

Joel Brooks: 01:24:44

I can be added to. My joy can increase, but God can't. And the moment you say things like, you know, he created man because, you know, he had just so much love he needed to give or because he wanted to receive, you know, all this love. You're saying, well, God was lacking or that we can add to him. And that is just not the scriptural definition of who God is.

Joel Brooks: 01:25:09

We can never add to him. And so the only way that we can ever you still freely choose to love God. And that's kind of a misconception about Calvinism. What happens? You always your will.

Joel Brooks: 01:25:22

You do what your heart wants. Now apart from God, your heart always wants to sin. That's the result of the fall. It always chooses sin. But then God changes your heart, and then you joyfully respond to him.

Joel Brooks: 01:25:37

So you freely are choosing your hearts what your heart wants to do at that moment. And so what happens is Calvinists and Arminius, they they've got the order swapped and things. And Arminianus says, you choose God, then God changes your heart. Calvinist says, God changes your heart. Therefore, you joyfully choose him.

Joel Brooks: 01:26:00

And you would see that like the Lydia when accessing God opened her heart and then she responded. Well, certainly God received glory from that even though it was the Lord's work that opened up her heart and enabled that. So I mean, I hope that helps that in God we it's he doesn't ever benefit as we would ever think of benefit from our love. The only benefit he is getting is his love is shooting from him, from him, through him. That's him working in us and back to him are all things.

Joel Brooks: 01:26:33

So the best love that he can ever receive is the love that he himself has given. And that's just what it- what happens is you see it's a reflection of the trinity. Right there, which is just this eternal giving of love around and around within the Godhead. Stephanie. Yeah.

Joel Brooks: 01:27:01

How does that make you feel? The question is, and my wife would be so happy you mentioned Edith Shaffer, by the way. Talks about the goodness of man like that that's a, what did you call that? A remnant? Yeah.

Joel Brooks: 01:27:16

Total depravity isn't that there isn't good out there. It's just that we're our our depraved state is such that we can't have faith and and remember apart from faith it's impossible to please God. So apart from faith everything's really sin. But you can still do like good things out there. And actually I would say, to a large degree there's more good things outside of the church than inside of the church.

Joel Brooks: 01:27:40

Because Jesus came to save sinners. So he came to save the pathetic. It's those who are actually really good and moral. They're the ones who think, I don't really need Jesus. And so a lot of times the church has the horrible people in it and it's the people on the outside of the world are the ethical.

Joel Brooks: 01:27:55

It's it's until sanctification, you know, gets it work and hopefully the church gets its act together. But, that's not what total depravity means there. It's it's that we're of the fall was complete and that there's not like even a part of us that can reach to God. So Romans 3 says, there is none who does good. No, not one.

Joel Brooks: 01:28:15

And by that it means or and there's none who seek after God. So it's connected to that seeking after God there. Because you can help a little lady off the street and it could be seen as a good thing, but if it's not out of faith and act of worship, it's not. So it's both good and it's both not at the same time. Good question.

Joel Brooks: 01:28:37

Alright. We're getting near the end. So y'all been hanging in there. This better be a good one. Okay.

Joel Brooks: 01:29:06

What what room for diversity of opinion in this area? That's a great question. Sorry. I didn't mean to inflate you up there. So I was talking about Yes.

Joel Brooks: 01:29:18

No. Jacob Arminianus was never burned as a heretic. He wasn't. He was actually what he thought he was doing was trying to reform the reformed church in his mind. And and the church is always saying that those who believe let's see in that Armenian position.

Joel Brooks: 01:29:41

They might in the way they articulate the gospel, articulate that Armenian position, but like I mentioned in prayer, none of them pray, God give that person their own way and please grant them their free will, because otherwise it really wouldn't be, you know, loving you. Nobody prays away. So like the gospel has reached them and in their heart, they kind of they kind of know these things. They might not be able to really articulate these things. Calvinism is trying to put that system to it to articulate it.

Joel Brooks: 01:30:13

So I I think Armenians really understand more of the doctrine of the sovereignty of God than they might be able to articulate, for starters. 2nd is yes, there's room for diversity. Because I put it in Paul's order in Romans. I don't put it in Romans 1. I put it in Romans 9.

Joel Brooks: 01:30:34

And I can share the entire gospel, which is what we need to agree on, before I ever get to the sovereignty God in election there. But I do think it is necessary for fuel for worship. It sets the proper posture. So hope hopefully that answers. One more.

Joel Brooks: 01:30:58

I'm gonna do Kristen. Right. Yes. Well, I mean, I or the the question is and when there is devastation and Chris had mentioned like my dad dying, how do I mean, how do we respond? Like, believing in the sovereignty of God, how do we?

Joel Brooks: 01:31:54

And I I mean, I can speak to that firsthand experience. At the time my dad died, I was the only person in my family who believed, who was a Calvinist, reformed in my faith. I'm the only one who wasn't devastated. My mom still is not there, but she cried probably for the first every day for the first 7 or 8 years after it happened, especially because of the way it happened. It really was that Lord, if you had been if you had only been here.

Joel Brooks: 01:32:28

And it just devastated her. And God, fortunately, I had just been working through this right before. I mean, I just been working through like, put under me a rock. It's like, God you're in control. It's like, and you can never ever doubt God's goodness when you look to the cross.

Joel Brooks: 01:32:52

Never. You know, and that's why, you know, Paul says, how we not with him, he will freely give us all things. When we look to the cross, we know that every good thing we need, he will give to us. Like we never have to doubt God's goodness when we look at the cross. And so in light of those two things, like God is in control and God is for me.

Joel Brooks: 01:33:15

I mean, because he didn't even spare his own son for me. I can never doubt that he's for me. That sustained me. I could not imagine going through that like my mom, you know, my brother and my sister went through it and thinking, why couldn't God even get an ambulance to our house and I'm supposed to worship him? I'm supposed to trust him.

Joel Brooks: 01:33:41

I mean, I couldn't even imagine going through that. And, and so I've had to work through that. I'll end on this kind of funny, just a funny story because we've been heavy. So my mom still believes that adamantly. John John Piper had come over to her house for dinner and, my mom was there this time.

Joel Brooks: 01:34:06

And, well, they're very different people. And, so my mom said the comment at the dinner table, because it was right after Katrina, this time, it's right before he had spoken to UCF, as he said the same thing at UCF. And my mom was like, well, we know that, you know, God wouldn't cause that. I'm like, oh, my gosh. It's it's coming.

Joel Brooks: 01:34:37

I mean, and that and that's what Piper like gets here. He's like, I mean, this is like intense moment. He goes, I will. If he goes, if Jesus still can't tell tell the wind and the waves to be calm, I will not worship him. Like crickets chirp, you know, as, you know, as you're here at the the dinner table.

Joel Brooks: 01:34:57

And my mom was just like, who the heck is this guy? You know, and he was just getting very passionate, you know, and worked up over that. And, if Caroline was here, I could embarrass her. Piper got so worked up and passionate over that. Caroline, who was little, screamed and yelled, daddy, tell it to be quiet.

Joel Brooks: 01:35:22

Which which is how many Calvinists are treated. And, and so I was like, I bet you don't get that much because you'd really be surprised. But anyway, I I just remember just very vividly that moment when those those worlds colliding there. And, and certainly Piper had a rock that my mom did not have. He he didn't have the tact, but but he he had he had the rock.

Joel Brooks: 01:35:50

Well, let me, let me close this in prayer. Thanks. I hope this was helpful to you, and I hope it was, not too terribly confusing. And, I love talking about these things. And, and, hope if you are confused realizing things are a process.

Joel Brooks: 01:36:05

All I would say is just keep going to the scriptures. I wanted to fight a guy tooth and nail when I was first exposed to this and he wouldn't fight me. For one he says, if I fight you, it goes against everything I believe because I believe God's the one who changes your hearts and not me. I was like, and he would say, just go to scripture. And I just kept going to scripture and God beat me down, and really changed my heart.

Joel Brooks: 01:36:27

So I'd encourage you to do that. Let me pray. God, we do acknowledge and confess that you're the sovereign Lord of all and that you are a God who saves. That is why we are here is because you have wrought salvation in our lives. We thank you that you have drawn us to yourself.

Joel Brooks: 01:36:45

And Lord, we know that you are able to keep us from stumbling and falling and I pray that you would do so. That you would allow us to live lives holy into your glory. Thank you for this time, and we pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen.