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Building the Ultimate Flight Simulator: Inside Microsoft Flight Sim 2024 with Jorg Neumann & Sebastian Wloch
Join host Justin Seams as he sits down with Jorg Neumann (Head of Microsoft Flight Simulator) and Sebastian Wloch (CEO of Asobo Studio) for an in-depth look at one of aviation's most influential training tools. Discover how Microsoft Flight Simulator has evolved since its 2020 release, with groundbreaking additions like career mode, wake turbulence simulation, and photorealistic graphics that even fool experienced pilots.
In this episode, Jorg and Sebastian share behind-the-scenes stories about:
Whether you're a seasoned pilot, aspiring aviator, or passionate sim enthusiast, this conversation reveals the incredible dedication and innovation behind the game that continues to spark the aviation bug in millions worldwide.
Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
Episode 346 of the pilot to
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sporty.com sxmoffer hi.
My name is Jorg Neumann.
I am the head of Microsoft
Flight Simulator.
Very excited to Be here.
Hello, I'm Sebastian Blor.
I'm the CEO at Asobo Studio in France.
AV Nation.
What is going on?
And welcome back to the Pilot,
the Pilot podcast.
My name is Justin Seams and I
am your host today's episode.
I am joined by the head of
Microsoft Flight Simulator in York
and the CEO of Asobo Studios
and Sebastian.
They are coming on the podcast
to talk about one of our favorite
games in aviation, and that's
Microsoft Flight Simulator.
Now, we had them on the
podcast a few years back and there's
been a lot of change changes
to Flight Simulator.
We talk about what those
changes were, why they made those
changes, and we talk about how
great of a product this is and how
they prefer to play the game.
It's always fun to talk with
Sebastian and Jorg.
I really get the feeling that
they truly love this product and
they want to see the best of it.
And you can see it when
they're talking about it, how much
they love it.
And it's awesome to see
they've done such a great job.
And I truly do enjoy playing
Microsoft Flight Simulator on, on
Xbox.
It's.
It's been a lot of fun.
And the career mode that they
have is pretty, pretty cool.
I love it.
It' been great.
So shout out to Microsoft
because this has played such a huge
role in aviation.
As we talk about on this
podcast, there's one of two things
for a lot of pilots that was a
determining factor in them becoming
a pilot.
And a couple years ago,
decades ago, it was watching Top
Gun and now it's, well, I
played Microsoft Flight Simulator,
so it's cool to have a game
that can play such a role in people
becoming pilots.
Avia Nation, I hope you're
having a great day.
This is a great episode and
this is going to be an exciting week.
I'm planning the release of
the product that I have not been
able to tell you on Friday,
most likely Friday.
It's gonna be great.
Look out for it on Instagram
or the email chain.
However you pay attention to Pilot.
The Pilot.
It will be there.
There may be a surprise
podcast on Friday or maybe the podcast
the following Tuesday, but it
will be released.
AV Nation, thank you so much.
I hope you enjoy this podcast.
And without any further ado,
here's Jorg and Sebastian.
Jorg and Sebastian, what's
going on?
Welcome to the Pilot to Pilot podcast.
Great to be here.
Thank you.
Yeah, welcome back.
I should say not too long ago
we had you on letting everyone know
that Flight Simulator was
released and was gonna be back and
it was quite the release.
And since then we've seen
streamers, we've seen Instagram,
we've seen YouTube, we've seen
it pretty much everywhere.
I've seen a lot of people on
Instagram where they actually get
confused if it is real or if
it is actually flight simulator.
So, I mean, kudos to you guys
for really getting that.
That engine to where it needed
to be to create such great graphics
and to create such realism,
which is essentially what you're
striving for.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I love seeing particularly some.
I've seen some of some people
recording landings and reality next
to.
Yeah, reality next to the sim.
It's hard to tell which is which.
And.
I train my eye when I see
screenshots reality next to sim to.
To find clues.
Sometimes it's very hard.
Sometimes it's very hard.
Sometimes I sort of recognize
some of the lighting, which is a
bit different.
But yeah, it can be very hard
to see the difference.
It got worse, you know, in
2020 we had the little, you know,
those little silhouette on the
outside nowadays, I mean, so I was
just so the head of Xbox, his
name is Matt Booty.
He just sent me a video.
He's like, I love seeing these.
And it was one of those videos.
Somebody's flying.
It looks exactly like the real world.
And nowadays we really sit
there like, is this ours?
This is a.
It's cool.
That's got to be the best
compliment, though.
I mean, if people really are
sitting there for.
It's like for minutes or
whoever long it is, and sitting with
their friends and they're
like, wait, that's not real.
That's actually flight simulator.
How hard was it to actually
come up with such perfection?
Because I'm guessing there
comes to a point where someone's
like, all right, this is good
enough, right?
Like, it's like, all right,
this is good enough.
It looks real enough, but
someone had to be there, be like,
no, we can do better.
We can make it more real.
Yeah, I mean, I think there's
two components to it.
One is data and one is then
the rendering tech.
Right.
On the data side, we try our
best to get as much data as we can.
We have multiple research teams.
We have partners at Maxar and Vexel.
So maxar makes satellite
imagery for the world.
If you ever see a CNN type of thing.
Specifically Maxar Excel flies
lots of planes over cities.
So we benefit from all that.
And those have been long term partners.
But to make it look real in a
game engine that's all in sepsis.
It's awesome.
Maybe talk about the lighting
or something.
Yeah, yeah.
So every, every, every time
there's new hardware, every, every
time there's new, we're
getting closer and closer.
So I remember I started video
games in the 90s, early 90s, and
it was, everything was just
really art.
Right.
We entered numbers and colors
and everything was just based on
the eye.
Now there's a lot of physics
on, on the lighting of the real world
physics.
Yet there's still some approximations.
Right.
We can't simulate perfectly
the real world.
We're getting very close, but
there's still some areas where it's
approximations.
And that's where still the, I
would say the artistic eye comes.
You see the photo.
We do a lot of this, right?
We exactly what people do when
they play.
Like we have also photos and
the sim side by side and we try to
see where there's still
differences and what is the cause.
So yeah, a lot of physics
analysis of the image.
But then also when, when it's
just the best we can get terms of
calculations, we try to add a
little bit of a human eye artistical
notch to make it feel more realistic.
Yeah.
And a lot has changed since
2020 or as well since the release.
Can you guys talk about a
little bit what into kind of continuing
to build this program and
continuing to build the flight sim
experience to make it as fun
and real as possible.
Yeah, I mean on the experience
side, the most, the biggest innovation
was the addition of the Korea,
which was something that people had
been talking about for a long,
long time in Avid.
So Flight Sim 10 back in 2006,
we had 30 missions in there, sort
of hard coded and you were
done with those.
And that was basically, that
was it.
And then you went back to free
flight here.
Given that we actually had
finally a real representation of
Earth, the full digital twin,
all of a sudden the problem was,
okay, now these missions have
to work everywhere.
And the team had to analyze
what are the rules to make all this
work.
You know, spraying a field in
Vietnam is different from spraying
a field in like Raleigh North
Car plan.
Right.
So I think that's pretty amazing.
And I, you know, I think that
I think the team did a great job.
You know, I do think
oftentimes, you know, when I think
about where we are now, where
we're going in the future, I think
we're right just at the
beginning of this.
You know, this is like V1 of
what a career is.
And I'm, I actually can't wait
for V2, but let's, let's, let's make
sure V1 works perfectly.
But I think the possibilities
there are endless.
So gameplay wise, I think
that's the biggest innovation by
far.
But technically, lots of
things went into it.
Yeah, there's a, I mean
there's, there's a lot of new things.
One on, on the physics side,
one, a big one is a wake turbulence
simulation, which is something
you, you really encounter.
I mean, I encountered once
when I was doing, you know, when,
when you fly, sometimes you
train just to do circles and turns
and stuff.
And I did a 360 and I run into
my own wake up.
Actually, I didn't know it was
what it was because at that day it
was very smooth and it was a
pretty rough bump.
Yeah, I mean, not dangerous,
but still you, you felt a bump and
the instructor told me, yeah,
that's, that's our week.
But in reality you don't
encounter it that much because they
separate, you know, intakes
off takeoffs and landing and airports,
they, they separate by a few minutes.
And so we now simulate on some
big airplanes it can be up to six
minutes of, of weight.
Turbulence.
Yeah.
On every aircraft in the, in
the simulation world.
So your own, but also
multiplayer traffic.
Everything that's, that's
having, that's flying or that's even
helicopters, when they're on
the ground, they're all emitting
wake turbulence.
And if you fly through, you
can, it's pretty realistic amount
of turbulence and you can, you
can feel it, you can even visualize
it in the sim.
That's one big addition.
Yeah, yeah.
I remember when I was going
through my 121 training to, to learn
how to fly 737.
Even previously when I was
learning how to fly Cessna Latitude,
it was.
They just made some new
changes in that massive simulator.
So because they talked about
how hard it is to mimic wake turbulence,
turbulence in general and
turbulence and how the airplane kind
of stalls up at altitude.
So I can only imagine how hard
it was for you guys to get everything
just right, to make sure it
looks and feels the same.
Because that's, that's the
goal of this, right?
To make, to have people have
the career and have the ability to
fly these planes and see what
pilots and what actually happens
at high altitudes.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Another thing is also the, if
you look at the career mode is, I
think the, the, there's a
mission where there's a, a category
of mission where you have to
bring, you know, people for parachute
jumping up in the air.
And.
And you would think that, hey,
these people probably will do like
a very classical flying, like
we would do.
Right.
You know, a circuit and all.
But in reality.
We work with people who
actually do this as a job.
Not at all.
Right.
They try to minimize fuel
consumption and time because they
have to bring people up, go
back down, bring people up.
And so they will literally
dive down, back to the Runway, completely
skip the circuit and just land
as quickly as they can.
And yeah, we try to simulate
the same.
In that mission type, you have
to really get quickly back down to
the Runway and in order to hit
the same sort of the turnover time
of a flight to.
To drop the people up in the air.
Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty
crazy when I have some friends that
flew parachute jumpers and
their stories are pretty wild.
Yeah, I mean them and banner towing.
Banner towing is pretty
intense too, because such a steep
dive to go after the toe and
then go straight up and it's a.
It's a different world.
It's.
It's very non.
Standard.
I'd say it's standard for
them, but for.
For another pilot, it is not.
I remember I was at an
airport, I landed, I saw a banner
to.
I thought the plane was
crashing because the plane just had
such a steep dive.
And I was like looking around
like, do I take my phone out?
Like, what's going on?
And then he pulled up.
I was like, oh, there's a
banner there.
That makes sense.
So, yeah, it's just such nonstandard.
So it's cool that you reach
out and you kind of do your homework
on what these pilots actually
do and how the airplanes actually
interact with those real life scenarios.
I mean, that's actually what I
was going to ask.
Oh, sorry.
It's one of the coolest
things, like I think when people
saw after we announced that we
got reached out to.
By the Coast Guard, I think
SOPO worked with the security.
In France, which is like the
European center for firefighting.
And those direct connections
are obviously awesome.
You know, like it's.
That's when you really get to realism.
Working with test pilots is
also really cool.
We talk about that a little
bit later when we talk about the
boom or something.
Oh yeah, that's cool.
That's North Carolina.
That's Greensboro, not too far
from where I am in Raleigh, where
they're headquartering everything.
Yeah, that's.
I just saw that announcement
as well.
That's.
It's gonna be pretty cool.
Obviously the Concorde did a
lot of Cool things.
And that was a long time ago.
And to think that we haven't really.
Well, there's so much good
technology out there, but we haven't
been able to fix supersonic
flying or supersonic boom or the
lack of the boom or how to
hide the boom, whatever they're trying
to do.
Right.
So the fact that we actually
have some excitement and some new
technology because we can make
flying as safe as we can and we're.
We're doing everything we can,
but we haven't improved the speed
in so long.
So it's awesome to see that,
that that's coming.
That's Blake's vision too.
Like, we made a little
documentary because we're.
We're really excited about
this one.
It's.
I think it's coming out next
week or something.
And yeah, when he talks about
it, like how we, how we stopped progressing
in that area for 50 years, if
you really think about it, it's crazy.
And I think boom is doing well.
Obviously the quest is coming.
Flying right now from the NASA
one with.
With Lucky.
Yeah.
It's cool stuff.
Yeah.
I interviewed the two test
pilots for the NASA one that they're
doing and it was just fascinating.
They're just how, how they
figured out they can minimize the
sonic like the boom.
It's just like who's.
People are so smart in this world.
Like I can fly an airplane,
but my mind cannot wrap around minimizing
the sonic boom sound.
So kudos to them.
It's awesome.
Are you.
Sebastian, you mentioned that
you're a pilot, York.
Do you fly as well?
I fly, I can fly, but I'm not.
I don't have a pilot's license.
Yeah, not yet.
Not yet.
We can fix that.
We can make that happen.
But is anyone else on the team pilots?
Is it important?
Do you.
Because in a lot of pilots and
stuff that they fly, a lot of times
it's perfected when it's
engineered by pilots.
Right.
Because pilots know what
pilots want.
Pilots know what pilots need
in certain situations.
Did you find it important to
find pilots to help code this, to
help build this, to help or
even just to ask.
There's such a network of
smart pilots out there that have
some experience with this.
Or was it kind of like we just
need the best coders?
I know what we can do and we
can make it work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we have a.
We actually started this a few
years before we shipped 2020.
So we.
Some PMP who did not, were not
pilot and have never flown an airplane
started ppls and then we also
hired a few people outside who were
actually already pilots.
And since then.
So I, I stopped at the ppl.
But some one person got a ppl.
Then a cpl, then instructor
license and then he, two or three
years ago he got a test pilot license.
Another person is only about,
I mean mostly about aerobatics.
Does a lot of aerobatic flying.
Yeah, we have a.
We have a lot of variety.
Trying to have specialists and
experts in different areas.
We also, we went quite a few
times helicopter flying, but that's
too long to get a ppl.
And also I would say a lot
more expensive than airplane flying.
Way more expensive.
Yeah, but it's actually very
fun and, and we went as far as to
really be able to at least
control the aircraft alone.
Right.
Without any instructor help
and just to get the feel of the aircraft.
Did a few auto rotation
landings and stuff like that.
But yeah, we have a different
area of experts.
Quite a few on York's team as well.
Maybe you want to comment?
Yeah, I mean we have one, the
real remaining team member From Flight
Sim 10, his name is Royal Winchester.
He is an F15 fighter pilot basically.
From back in the day.
So he flies us about everything.
Then our entire test team is
pilot testers of different ilks.
Right.
Some helicopter.
And we actually hire
specifically to that because that
connection is also important.
And then from a lot of the
planes that are in Flight Sim are
not made by or Microsoft.
Sobo makes some, but a lot of
them are made by other teams and
almost all of them are pilots
because otherwise they wouldn't get
it right.
Like for example, I and I
builds, the head of Ioni builds is
a 330 pilot.
And it's kind of like that
everywhere honestly, because we went
to where the expertise is
because some of to make a great plane
you need to really understand
it, have lived it a little bit.
And I think I would say at
least 50% of them are pilots.
Yeah, no, which is important,
like I said, to make a great plane.
Maybe you, you don't have the
expertise in a 737, but you have
an expertise in building a 172.
Right.
So it's nice to kind of branch
out and have other people that have
the ability to do that.
You did mention about boom.
And you mentioned about having
their supersonic test plane in there.
What was the, the process of
getting that to happen?
Well, how did that even kind
of form?
Was it a.
Hey, this would be really cool.
Did you guys reach out to them?
How did it work?
Blake caught Me.
So it was interesting.
So it was one of those days
when you get some random phone call
from someone.
You're like, he's like, hey,
I'm Black Shaw.
I'm the CEO.
Boom.
Like, okay.
So I obviously, I followed the plane.
And he loves Microsoft Flight Simulator.
Like, he actually grew up with it.
Kind of the story that you
told at the beginning.
He got inspired by it, that
fell in love if aviation became a
pilot.
And he wants to.
He wants his plane and
overture and stuff in the future
to be in flight sim because he
knows that we think about 50% of
all people who fly in the
world started with Flight Simulator.
But you ask pilots, that's
typically what they say.
And that is now a generation
of people that grew up with Flight
simulator are the CEOs of companies.
Cirrus is similar.
There's actually quite a few
relationships we have with people
like the aviation allies and
those types of things.
They started with flight sim
and they want to get back to it because
they know that's the flywheel,
where really new pilots will come
from.
People will actually take
aviation further.
So it's really cool.
And then just to say, because
we talked about pilots a little bit.
So the, the, the.
The pilot from that sepsos
mentioned the.
Francois's name.
He was just in Salzburg, like
I through two or three times talking
to Dario.
Dario is the test pilot from
Red Bull.
He actually built the Red Bull simulator.
And they have like,
immediately connected, right?
And we have like, we are very
proud of the new Red Bull that is
in.
So Air Race is now in Flight Simulator.
Right now it's on PlayStation
only, but it's coming as soon as
we ship SU4.
Super cool.
And when the test pilot says
it feels just right, that's when
you're like, okay, I think
we're there.
I think we've succeeded.
The same was true with Boom.
So their test pilot, his name
is Geppetto, he talked directly to
the two teams that worked on it.
So that was a combination of
Working Title and Flight FX working
together.
Working Title was doing the
avionics, Flight FX doing the plane.
They talked to the test pilot
they visited.
And now we have a boom that
actually feels like a supersonic
plane, right?
When Geppetto says it's one of
those planes that really feels happier
being supersonic.
And it's actually kudos to
Seb's system because by tweaking
the parameters, the plane
actually now feels like what the
pilot, because he's the only
one who ever flipped fluids, right?
He's the Only one who can tell
us, does it actually feel right?
And he says, yep, looking good.
So, yeah, that's, that's what
we're trying to do, right?
Yeah.
Can you imagine being the only
person to fly an airplane?
Like, you're the only person
that's gone supersonic in this airplane.
Yeah.
But, yeah, kudos to you guys,
Sebastian, and what you're able to
do with that because I'm sure
that was.
It's new, right?
I mean, like, obviously the
Concord is supersonic, but we really
haven't had anything since
then, so.
New tech truck to figure out
how to make it work.
What was that like for your
team to, to actually achieve that?
I mean, supersonic.
We, we did it with the very
first time on.
When.
On the F18.
And obviously we.
I mean, there was really.
Royale helped a lot, but there
was not much.
You know, you don't have a lot
of experience on these.
Yeah.
So it's, it's this one.
The first step we really took
just the physics and try to say,
you get the.
This is what it should do physically.
Right.
The simulation is now much
more accurate than it used to be
10 or even even longer ago.
Like, it's, it's much more accurate.
So we can sort of try to
simulate it as it should happen and
then, and then as soon as we
get pilot experience, we, we sort
of tweak it to get.
There's always a.
There's always a layer of
approximation because we can simulate
every molecule of air and everything.
Right.
It's way too complex.
So there's always some, some
formula which is supposed to.
Grab the whole, the whole behavior.
And the approximation leaves
always some percentage of space where
it's really the sort of pilot feeling.
Right.
Who is going to go come in and
get the last stretch of realism out
of the system.
Yeah.
I think that's a time with Red Bull.
I think the.
It all worked right, but it
didn't feel right.
And then Francois hooked up
with Dario, who actually, who was
one of the Red Bull pilots,
and, and that sense of weight and
control is now there.
And.
But it, it really took them
tweaking the numbers together and,
and getting it right.
Yeah, I mean, when, when
people sit down and play the game,
they don't think about how
many tries, how long this takes,
like how many hours it took to
just make this one part, this one
scene look good.
Right.
Like, people just want to.
They just want it to work
perfectly right then and there.
They don't realize how much
work went into it to make it happen.
Was there anything that you,
that people would be surprised that
took so long to get right or
that was just very difficult?
I know you talked about the
physics of lighting, I know you talked
about all that other kind of stuff.
But like, was there anything
that you guys specifically remember
that was just like so
difficult that maybe the average
game player doesn't really
realize would take a while?
I mean one thing you can find
in 24, which is different than.
So 2020 had a really realistic
atmospheric lighting simulation model.
But yet there was a few issues
like for example, this, the famous
line on the horizon which is
due to an approximation.
You know the, the.
It becomes tangent to the
earth's surface and there was sort
of a, in the GPU there's
infinity and then you don't know
what to do.
And so the team entirely
revoked this.
Now it's actually like really
tracing rays through the atmosphere
and sampling the clouds and
whatever is happening on the way.
And so it's pretty much a
rework from the ground up.
And in the end it looks almost
the same.
Right.
Because the previous one was
already a very good approximation.
It just had a few, I would say
issues in some, in some angles and
some situations.
And the new system doesn't
have these issues, is even more accurate.
But it took, it was very hard
to just get a.
Rebuild that system from the
ground up, make it more accurate
and solve all the, all the singularities.
And in the end.
Yeah, when you are 99%
realistic and then you become 99.9%
realistic, it, if you don't
have a, if you don't spend all your
day in the sim, you don't
almost see the difference.
Right.
If you don't have the eye.
And I clearly see the
difference now with the, with the
time but, but it's, it's the
last percentage of like sort of uncanny
valley thing where you, where you.
Where you fix the last notch.
That, that was very hard.
And there's, it's, it's like
that in all areas where we're always
fighting for the last little
percentage of accuracy and that often
can only be felt by a test
pilot or I would say really edge
cases of flight model.
When you, for example, for Red
Bull, that's the case.
That's stuff that you don't
usually do on a day to day basis.
You don't push the machine so hard.
And in those situations it's
hard for us to know like the simulation
says this, but then what
really happens in that moment and,
and only a test pilot can
actually know who flies because they
have a knowledge which is.
So every plane is different,
even every flight is different because
they keep tweaking.
But the test pilot sort of
knows the, you know, he knows what
is the family of situations he
can find when it's really within
the cloud of possibilities or
if it's out.
And he sort of has almost like
a feel, right.
He doesn't even think it.
He sort of knows when it's the
right thing or when it's not.
And a first test for us is
often when a pilot who really knows
the machine very well, who has
a lot of hours on the machine, if
he doesn't feel to like, if,
you know, if he can talk to us and
not even look at it and fly it
so almost like automatically, then
we think, okay, there's
something right here, because he
doesn't even have to think
about it.
And when it's not right, you
can see that they have to a little
bit more concentrate and
everything, and then they will tell
you, yeah, there's something not.
Not working here.
It's, it's.
It's different.
Something's off.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
I would say an area that might
seem easy, reasonably easy, but it
really isn't.
Is that what we call the
airport experience?
So what we do, we get, you
know, we get transponder signals
from Flight Aware.
So we know every plane, we
know what the model is and all that.
So while they're in the air,
everything is great.
We know everything about it.
And then they land, and then
we know nothing about them all of
a sudden.
And we need to go get them to
their gates in the right patterns
with the right hold short and
all that stuff.
And it's like.
It's like simulating a city.
And it's actually quite complicated.
And the same is true when
you're doing career missions.
The ATC in free flight and
Korea is actually a very interesting
intersection point and
something we need to, I think, work
on in the future, because it's.
It's actually hard.
It's not perfect the way it
is, but we'll crack it at some point.
It's definitely on our radar.
The airport simulation is.
The difficulty in that area is
just the volume.
Like Jorg said, it's like a city.
When you look at, like a Paris
airport or whatever, the number of
employees in these things, if
you look at the number of cars, like
sometimes you land, you know,
when you take a bus to get from the
plane to the gate, and it
takes forever.
And then there's how many
buses are There.
How many ground vehicles, how
many fuel tanks, how many Catering.
Catering.
How many?
And it's just.
It's.
And everything has to be
simulated, right?
Because when you fly, when you
do this AI thing and you don't have
any information and you want
to bring it to the gate, I mean,
if a taxiway is closed, if
there's a fuel tank, vehicle, if
there's something going on,
everything has to be there.
And it's thousands of things
which all of a sudden needs to be
simulated.
And in.
You know, in.
In.
In classical video games, you.
You sort of.
I don't know, if you don't
look at it at something, you just.
It goes away or stuff.
Yeah.
Here.
You can't really do that.
You have to simulate the whole airport.
Like, the.
The.
A big airport can be like.
There was a time when seven.
I talks like, man, why?
Why?
Started going out running faster.
I think there's 20,000 cell
phones, and.
There'S like, big House of
Sickity right there.
Miles.
Large airports, big as a city.
Yeah.
So when you're talking about
that, for me, going from flying private
jets, going to flying the
airlines, the hardest part for me
wasn't flying the airplane.
It was on the ground taxiing
and going to the ramp and figuring.
Because one of the most.
Some of the most stressful
moments is not in the air.
It's like, is that van gonna stop?
Is that catering truck gonna stop?
Is that gonna stop?
Where's the fuel truck going?
Is there.
It is a hot mess on the ramp.
Everything is so fluid and moving.
So we get.
We get obviously pinged a lot
from the real world, but for the
real world of aviation, and
there's probably two different areas.
One is the manufacturers, and
the other ones is the airports.
And we have a lot of airports
that ask us, can you make a perfect
airport simulation?
Because they all sit there in
their little airport tower holding,
you know, managing the ground, basically.
But nothing is really perfect.
And the interesting thing
about it is they're all totally custom,
right?
So you talk to, like, Rome,
and they have their set of problems.
And you talk to Sheepo.
They have completely different problems.
They talk to Lufthansa about
Frankfurt, and we haven't really
touched this yet.
But it's one of those areas that.
That might.
That might be a new frontier
for us here at some point to go after
the more specific ground.
Ground simulation.
We have it, of course, but not.
Not to the degree that they
want it.
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah.
I think you guys have done a
great job, but it is hard because
from.
If someone's not used to that
world, it.
Like you said, it's a city.
Every airport's different.
Different, too.
Like, JFK is different than lax.
LAX is different than Miami.
And they're all a hot mess.
Right?
Like, it's all just like.
And you have to know everything.
That's where the iPad comes in and.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's crazy.
What is your kind of getting
back to gameplay?
What is your.
You mentioned career mode, but
do you guys have a favorite airplane
you like to fly?
Do you have a favorite kind of
scenario you like to be in when you
play the game?
I'm currently in the bush trips.
I fly the Draco X, the plane
that doesn't really exist yet.
But, like.
But it's.
I mean, I saw.
I saw the original Draco in
Oshkosh, and we're like, man, look
at this beast.
And then.
Then Petey came up with the
Draco X, and we're like, we got to
get this thing.
And it's the fun, I think,
because it's easy for me.
It's like, it's super powerful.
Right.
Literally go anywhere that
thing can take off, like.
And so I love exploring the
world, so that's why that's my favorite
plane.
But right now, for sure.
I mean, my.
The thing I do the most right
now is helicopters.
Yeah.
But it's maybe.
I don't know if it's my
favorite or not.
I like a lot of different
experiences, but I do a lot of helicopter
flying.
In the area, mostly here.
Right.
Also, I check the weather
every time I fly.
If it's right, if it's always check.
I'm at the window, so always
check that.
But, yeah, I do a lot of work
helicopter to check round effect.
Like, a lot of the physics.
Always.
Always a lot of the physics.
And also, it's very hard.
It's easier with a helicopter
to check your own wake turbulence.
You know, just have to with
the plane.
It's.
It's.
It takes a while, you know, to
fly around and.
Yeah, yeah, but I like that.
I like smaller.
I mean, anything that you.
You can land anywhere.
And usually I like to fly.
The things I fly, I flew
myself because I can relate.
You know, I can compare to
what I see if it feels the same.
And so I've flown the Icon.
I've flown the Cessna, the Robin.
Robins.
Oh, yeah, Robins.
And the cab helicopter.
So those ones.
The ones I fly the most often.
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today@alworthairline.com what's what
would.
What's some.
Because there's been so many
people that play this game.
Has there been, I don't know,
like a celebrity or anyone that has
reached out to you or just
like feedback you've gotten that
surprised you in a positive
way that they're like wow, this game
is actually, I mean obviously
people say they want to be pilots,
but just any feedback that
really kind of stuck out from you
from either people playing the
game or people that have.
Worked on the game.
I'm not sure it's surprising anymore.
So I mean I talk people to
your control yesterday or they talked
to me and they basically a
whole array of pilots of various
ilks, right.
And they start saying we're
huge fans.
We think you guys are doing an
awesome job.
This is super realistic.
It's not so well known.
We worked with Boeing for the
last five years on their virtual
airplane simulator.
I mean it's basically powered
by Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020,
but there's a training program
that Boeing put on top of it.
And the Boeing engineers are,
you know, we did 7378 with them and
they think it's great.
Perfect.
I was like, okay, that's that.
I mean that the other test
pilot, Seb, you took on the, you
went on that tour once, right?
Where he goes went to a bunch
of manufacturers.
I think that's the thing that
happens celebrities.
I mean I think you know, John
Major and people like that.
You know sometimes there's the.
He is a big fan, right.
So I think there are people
that call in ever so often.
But it's more for me the
celebrities are the people that make
the planes like that that,
that is kind of what we're aspiring
to.
Right.
In many ways.
And when they call and say
something nice that makes.
Feels awesome.
But yep.
So.
I mean I, what I really enjoy
is, I mean it's, it's over 40 years
old.
So sometimes you see people
who, like, I'm 80, I'm still flying
flight sim.
And yeah, it's, it's.
I mean, not a lot of.
I mean, people who are 80
don't play a lot of games, right?
But this is, this is something
which I think still brings people
into.
Into, I mean, joy, first of all.
And, and also when they say
how fights come, like, I mean, I
also played in the 90s, right,
when it was just a wireframe.
And, and it's the same
experience, the same feel.
I mean, at the time, I was
fully, completely, completely crazy
to be able to fly in 3D and everything.
But, I mean, sometimes people
haven't touched the flight simulator
for 30 years or something, and
they can't just come back to it right
now and they're like, whoa.
What is.
What has happened?
It's, it's, it's completely different.
And yeah, yeah.
So that's, that's, that's very interesting.
Also, everybody knows it, right?
Even my kids from school, like.
The other kids at school.
No Flight simulator, right.
So my kids say.
Yeah.
People have told me the.
I mean, it's weird, but when
you talk.
I don't know if you ever do this.
Like, sometimes there's a
mailman coming, and I open the door
and he's like, do you work on
Flight Simulator?
And then you're like, yeah, I
need to go back to work.
And he wants to talk about it.
Like, okay, so it's, it's, it's.
I mean, it's.
It's kind of an.
It's an honor.
We always say we.
We feel like we're standing on
the shoulder of giants.
And it's not some joke, right?
Like, people, like very smart
people have worked on flight sim
for decades.
And yeah, we stand on what
they've done.
You know, we've learned from
what they did.
Some of the code still runs,
but they made.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I mean, when you talk about,
like, the mailman, you work for flight
sim.
I mean, when, when, when
pilots go to parties, like, a lot
of times all people want to
talk about is flying in aviation
and that stuff.
So what you're doing is you're
giving access to the everyday person
that maybe doesn't have the
ability to go fly an airplane, but
they get to.
To get as close to the real
thing as possible, right?
So they get to fulfill their
childhood dream, albeit whether it's
on a computer, on a PS5, on
whatever they're playing on.
But it's as close to the real
thing as you can possibly get.
So you're helping them and be
able to say that they, not necessarily
they aren't really flying the
airplane but they get to see what
it is like what it's like to
be a pilot, what it's like to be
on the ramp at Amsterdam, what
it's like to be on the ramp at Paris
de Gaulle or Charlotte or whatever.
Airport Raleigh a little bit easier.
But they get access to us into
a world that is kind of hard to get
into.
Right.
I mean it's, it's cost prohibitive.
It's very expensive to become
a pilot.
So you're doing a great job there.
It's got to be awesome.
You say that like so we, we do
a few things like this.
Like for example, there's
something called Alaska Day.
So Alaska Airlines puts this
up every, I think it's twice a year.
They bring thousands of STEM
kids in and, and we, and it's really
cool.
Like it's just the joy of the
kids playing.
It's just something else.
Right.
And, and there was a, there's
a story like I talked to the, the,
the flight lab in the National
Air, National Air and Space Museum,
like the, the, the, the Air
Force Museum and ignore where it
is but there's this three
gentlemen, they're 70 something years
old and they run this app and
they told me the story of like hey
Jorg, we're running this lab
and the kids come in and can you
tell us when you do SIM updates?
I don't know if I even told
you this.
They're like, because our
computers are down the data SIM updates
and we need to schedule that.
And the reason why I say that
is it's a, we touch these kids lives
and in this case these three
volunteers that are in their 70s
trying to teach kids to fly.
But what we do and how we do
it actually affects people in the
real world quite a bit.
And I think it's just.
There's nothing like this in
computer gaming at all.
This is very interesting.
Great learning.
Yeah.
And I think we're still learning.
One of the main things,
obviously I know you guys are busy,
we can wrap up here soon.
But one of the most important
things that I could see Flight Simulator,
Microsoft Flight Simmer
turning into is truly a training
product for pilots.
Right.
Like the technology is getting
there obviously with VR headsets
with the ability to do things
like you can make it as real as possible.
As real as an actual simulator
with physical buttons and your, you
Mentioned the Boeing I've read about.
I think it was a couple weeks
ago, it actually came out.
Boeing said that they're
actually introducing Microsoft Flight
Simulator and they have been
using it.
And you mentioned the737.8
that they've been doing it on.
What do you think?
Obviously you don't.
I mean, I know you guys
probably have like a white paper
and plans and stuff, so don't
give it all out.
But like, what do you think
the real, the reality of making this
a true pilot trainer, where
someone is going to an airline interview
and they're like, instead of
watching this on your iPad, we're
now going to get you a VR
headset and we're going to run through
all your flows, run through
all your checklists, run through
all this.
So when you get here, you've
already had experience in the simulator.
It can save the airline's
money and it can save time with the
pilots as well.
What do you think about the
feasibility of training with this
product either where it is
currently or in the future?
I mean, I would say it's
definitely possible.
Everybody, I mean, you know,
training is a ramp and the level
D stuff, there's not enough album.
The usage is constantly booked out.
So if you want to become an
airline pilot, stand in line.
Why don't fly to Dubai, right?
That's literally what you kind
of have to do.
So I think everybody sees the
same problem and they all say that
this type of gamey simulator
is now sophisticated enough that
at least the first few stages
of actual pilot training could be
handled there.
So at home, trainings, touch
and gold landings, those stuff of
things, for us it's really
just a, can we do it?
Can we support these people?
Because like we had this with
ESP backwards.
Flight Sim 10, I don't know if
you know this.
So Flight Sim 10 came out in 2006.
There was a similar idea at
the time was called ESP, which turned
into later on.
We sold that to prepare 3D to Lockheed.
And for us it's really just
like we did this Boeing program to
test what's it actually going
to take to support them correctly.
Because you can, you know,
when you, when you sell a game to
a consumer, at some point or
another, there's bugs and stuff and
we fix those bugs.
But at some point they're
actually pretty happy with what they
have and accept that as reality.
I think the difference in
businesses is that they are always
evolving and looking for the
next thing and that needs to be supported
properly.
And then do we have the staff
know how desire to support these
types of things.
I mean there were up until
recently there were two programmers
dedicated to this at the sovo.
And does that scale for us.
So I think we're, I think
we're going to be very open minded
but cautious.
Is that probably, is probably
the right way to say it.
And it has to be a different product.
Right?
Because when you look at what
we have like all these planes, we
have 125 planes now or
something like they actually are.
Many of those don't allow us
to be a training tool.
Right.
They, they come from
manufacturers, they have their own
ideas what training is like
and they, they don't want people
to learn it the wrong way.
They're like hey wait a
minute, this is our plan.
You know, where'd you learn
that thing?
You know, be careful with that stuff.
And that's fair enough.
Right.
So but it's, I would say we
are in a super harmonious state with
the aviation industry and the
airline industry both.
And I think that's a good,
that's a good basis.
And now we'll see where we can
take it.
Agreed?
Yeah.
And then the last question I
ask you is what's the perfect way
or what's your favorite way to
play the game?
Is it with an Xbox controller?
Is it with a keyboard?
Is it with like a full setup?
You know, you got throttles,
you got a yoke.
What's your perfect.
What's your favorite way to
actually play the game?
So I use a yoke.
And, and, and this.
Perfect.
I love how you had it right
next to you guys.
It was like ready for that all
the time.
I mean I would say the eyes.
Awesome.
I don't know if you simply see eyes.
It's the best thing.
That is, it really is
something else.
And I have, I have this thing here.
Right.
Also.
I don't, I don't, I don't
actually use, use it that much.
So I, I usually prefer like
this gives me enough precision, you
know, on the, on the.
Well, because I don't fly airliners.
That's the thing, right.
I find it intimidating still.
Just give me a call, I'll talk
you through it.
We'll make it work.
Yeah, but York, Sebastian, I
always appreciate you guys coming
on.
It's a lot of fun to kind of
just, just talk shop.
Right.
Talk about the game.
Talk about a game that's
touched had such an impa.
Important role in a lot of
pilots lives.
And we'll continue to do that.
As you said, you guys think
50% of pilots have used Flight Simulator
and it's helped them get to
where they are today.
So I think I said it before, I
don't know if I said in recording.
I think there's two things,
especially after Top Gun came out,
that have really helped pilots
and it's Top Gun and it's Flight
Simulator.
So you guys are doing a great job.
It's a much needed game and it
helps spark the aviation bug for
so many people and it just
gives them the ability to, to, to
live the life of a pilot,
whether it's to start their training
or just to fly New York to
Paris and see what it's like to be
on a 350, you know.
So thank you guys so much and
hopefully we can have you on again
and talk about some other cool
stuff you're coming out with.
Totally.
And I would say I think we, I
just can speak for both of us.
It's an honor to work on this.
Right.
This is not just some, you know.
So the reason why we work so
hard is because every day I get up
and I pinch myself like man
working on something important that
actually has relevance.
And so I'm very grateful and
I'm glad that we are in this state
and that we can help a little bit.
Yeah.
Well, from the outside looking
in, we can tell that you guys love
it and enjoy it.
So you're doing a good job.
We can all see really makes a
difference too.
So I appreciate you guys.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Bye.
That's a wrap on today's podcast.
Thank you so much for listening.
Shout out to your and
Sebastian for coming on the podcast
and again you can just tell
how much they truly, truly love this
product.
So Microsoft Flight Simulator,
great game.
If you haven't played it, you
haven't downloaded, please go do
it because you might find
yourself wanting to become a pilot.
Maybe give it for a gift for Christmas.
And you never know.
Your little brother, little
sister, your dad.
Maybe they're going to want to
be a pilot.
Aviation.
Hope you're having a great day.
As always.
Happy flying.
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