THPStrength

What is THPStrength?

Isaiah Rivera, pro dunker, and John Evans discuss anything related to maximizing athletic performance, and in particular, jump training. Strength and conditioning, jumping technique, weight room practices, and general fitness and health tips and advice are shared on this podcast.

John:

Alright. Welcome back to the THB Strength podcast. On today's episode, we are going to be talking about impulse. What specifically about impulse? I have no idea.

John:

Isaiah has I'm gonna

Isaiah:

surprise him.

John:

He's gonna surprise me. But before we get into that, we wanna give a huge shout out to our sponsors at THP Strength. They are the premier jump coaching in the entire world. If you are looking to jump higher and get more athletic, then you need go to thpstrength.com and sign up right now. If you don't wanna train, don't waste our time, don't waste your time, and don't sign up.

John:

Anything else?

Isaiah:

I don't know. Was pretty good.

John:

Alright. So what what do we have to talk about today?

Isaiah:

So before I get into the the quest the specific question I have for you, I guess we should define what impulse is. A lot of our people probably don't know what impulse is.

John:

Wait, why is it important? Maybe it's

Isaiah:

even more important. So when you're jumping, the physics equation that everybody always brings up is, I feel like the two things that is brought up the most is force equals MA, Newton's second law, most people know that they've taken like high school physics, and then usually you get into power, right? Power is force times velocity. And I'll explain that as the reason you wanna be explosive. It's not just about force, how quickly you can apply force.

Isaiah:

But there has been a lot of, I guess, research arguments Work over time. Oh, okay. That's the same as Force times velocity. Force times

John:

velocity. Okay, force times velocity. That tracks, that tracks.

Isaiah:

So people argue that power is actually not a good descriptor of vertical jump performance because you can it's it's work over time and you can sustain lots of work over a period of time and you'll generate a ton of power, but it won't necessarily mean that you're jumping higher or that something's gonna be

John:

What do mean like on a bike or something like that?

Isaiah:

Yeah yeah, like work over time. You could generate how much power was or you could how much power was generated over ten minutes riding on a bike.

John:

Oh right.

Isaiah:

It's not a good descriptor of jumping that last point three seconds. Yeah. Or whatever. So then the argument is, it's actually, it's actually not even an argument, it's just a fact, is that vertical jump performance is directly correlated to impulse.

John:

Not directly correlated, it is caused. Yeah. It is impulse. Yeah.

Isaiah:

Yeah. So then, I was looking at physics equations and stuff like that and the other thing that determines vertical jump height, literally the one thing that determines how high you're gonna jump is vertical velocity at takeoff. Yes. So when you're at toe off of a jump, what's your final velocity right before your feet leave the ground and the higher that number is, the higher your vertical is gonna be. So then I did some some shifting around of equations, Initial velocity assuming is zero, usually it's zero.

Isaiah:

Oh, when you're thinking about a jump unless you have momentum going into it. And then but the equation for final velocity assuming initial velocity zero is

John:

You know initial velocity is not always zero, right?

Isaiah:

Yeah. That's what I meant like if you have momentum going into it the might not be. But it's essentially force times time over mass. So less you weigh and the more force is being applied over a long period of time which is the impulse, the higher you're gonna jump. So then my question for

John:

you So it's force times time over

Isaiah:

Over mass.

John:

Over mass. So impulse over mass.

Isaiah:

Final velocity, yeah.

John:

Okay, got it, got it.

Isaiah:

So my question for you is, if you generate more impulse, and I and I have I kinda know the answer and I know and I also have

John:

What is this? Is this a straw man? Are you setting up a logical fallacy? No.

Isaiah:

I'm saying I'm saying because our viewers probably don't know.

John:

Okay. Okay.

Isaiah:

I I can guess what you're probably gonna say and then I have my own hypothesis for it.

John:

Okay.

Isaiah:

My question is, if impulse is direct, it is jump height. Right. And then you can generate, the more time you spend applying force higher you're gonna jump. Why do we want to minimize ground contact times, why do we see minimize ground contact times and why is that, like I was looking at a study of there were elite sprinters and then a non elite sprinters and the elite sprinters had higher peak forces over shorter time intervals versus the non elite sprinters had less peak force over longer time intervals. Wouldn't the ideal be a long time interval with really high peak forces?

John:

Right. So it sprint do you wanna talk about sprinting or jumping? Because there's Let's

Isaiah:

get jumping because our viewers are probably gonna be

John:

Alright. Do we wanna cover sprinting

Isaiah:

or I think

John:

I think

Isaiah:

that would I think if we do cover sprinting as well, it would be pretty enlightening though.

John:

Alright. So when you look at jumping and you have a motor pattern that is not dictated by it it is not the success of it is not determined by the overall time it takes. Right? If you're in a game, then maybe that's different. But if you're a sprinter, then the overall time that you spend in the event matters.

John:

Right? So, know, hypothetically, if you can apply infinite force in, let's say it's, I don't know, some insane amount of time, but you're still on the ground, then it doesn't matter. There's no like Yeah.

Isaiah:

So So with sprinting specifically

John:

There's a time component that matters a lot. Yeah. So it's a balance between having really, really because you could, you know, like you said, why not spend a ton of time on the ground and have super high peak forces? Because it's a ratio of how much force you can apply in a given amount of time. Otherwise, you'd be bounding.

John:

Right? That's bounding.

Isaiah:

Gotcha. You

John:

could do it in 16 strides or whatever if you Is

Isaiah:

sprinting not directly

John:

Peak related to the perfect force, area under the curve of each contact is optimized to allow at certain strides to allow for acceleration to continue down the track each contact. Each contact is different. Okay. So like an acceleration step isn't the same as a max velocity contact.

Isaiah:

Like out of the blocks you're gonna Yeah, see

John:

right. You're gonna see different impulse curves than you would if you looked at, force time curves than if you looked way later down the track. So if you, like hypothetically, you know, if you had a really, really long period of time in the first stride and you produced a lot of force, you're bounding. That's what you're doing.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

You're bounding and and you can't have infinite time or you can't have too much time because you're going

Isaiah:

You'll you'll spend too much time in the air too. Right?

John:

Well, yes. But also, you're looking at horizontal and vertical impulses. Yeah. They're not the same. You So gotta look at both vectors.

John:

But also you would your hips would be in front of your toe. Right? Like you can't apply force without a reaction. Every action has an equal and opposite So when you apply a force to a mass, there is going to be a reaction. That reaction is your body moving over space.

John:

Yeah. So if you're applying force, your mass is going to be moving. Right? Mhmm. And so you can't apply force past triple extension.

John:

Right? Yeah. So if you apply a given amount of force in a given amount of time, you're off you're going to be off the ground. Does that make sense?

Isaiah:

Yep.

John:

So that's related to spurning and then there's also the time component. Right? If you spend if you if you have too much impulse on the ground vertically, you will float upwards.

Isaiah:

Got

John:

it. So you also have to look at the horizontal forces. It's just that when we look at elite sprinters, they are on and off the ground and producing very high forces because eccentrically, they're breaking very quickly.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

So every action has an equal and opposite reaction. They have a very high rate of force development eccentrically when they hit the ground, so they're braking and able to decrease the amount of time that they're spending on the ground in that first half of the So eccentric you're actually

Isaiah:

it's like you're maximizing impulse within the time constraint.

John:

That you within the movement constraint you have. The movement strategy is going to dictate the time. Gotcha. The maximum amount of time. Gotcha.

John:

Because you could Like you don't wanna say, let me maximize time to change my movement strategy. It's my movement strategy is going to be what it is and time will be the result of the movement strategy. Yeah. You could try to maximize time but by doing that, you have to change the movement strategy assuming Yeah. That effort is the same.

John:

Right? Because if you just don't try as hard, then you'll increase time, but your force is gonna go down. Yeah. Right? So you have to look at the movement strategy first and then look at time.

John:

The movement strategy is what changes time, and that's what changes force. Now, you could hypothetically bound. Right? That's gonna change the force time curve completely. You could do a different type of run.

John:

Like if you wanted to run and maximize time, then just break the first half and your force is gonna drop. It won't look like a sprinting curve anymore. Yeah. Right? If you try to maximize time, force is gonna do something as a result.

Isaiah:

Yeah. It's because you have a it's the interplay between Yeah. It's like time and force. Because you

John:

could And the movement strategy.

Isaiah:

Because like like you said, you could hypothetically change time, but then your peak forces are gonna change. 100%. And then you're just

John:

gonna destroy Then you're running slow.

Isaiah:

And

John:

you're not gonna And so if you're looking at jumping, what's interesting in this case is that you have as much time as you want. Your success does not determine by the amount of time the event takes. If you're just looking at dunking specifically, basketball might be different, but let's just say max jump height. Right? Yeah.

John:

Like high jump for example. Even that, somersault plays a role because of time. But if you're just talking about jump height like a height check or a dunking a one hander, you could you should try to maximize time. So how do you maximize time though is the question. The move what happens to the movement strategy when you try to maximize time?

John:

Do you

Isaiah:

It's gonna get bigger.

John:

Do you land? Because hypothetically, what if I did this? What if I stepped off a box, I landed

Isaiah:

Dissipate all

John:

my force, and then But you would and wait for thirty seconds, and then push up.

Isaiah:

Right? You would just lose the peak forces at that point.

John:

Well, one, you wouldn't have a you wouldn't have a change in momentum if you correct for the system, your body weight. You correct for your body weight. Yeah. If all the momentum is dissipated, you're you're going to decelerate to zero and then push back up and you could total the area under the curve and, you know, it's it won't be very meaningful. Yeah.

John:

Right?

Isaiah:

So that's you always have to just maximize for impulse.

John:

You wanna maximize greatest impulse. Wanna pick the movement strategy. There's a couple things that have to be assumed. One, that you're trying as hard as you can.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

Two, that you're trying to coordinate the movement correctly and maintain integrity of timing.

Isaiah:

Right?

John:

And then three, that's when you can start looking at changing time. And how you do that is by changing your technique. So why do we want a long penultimate step? Well, if you have a long penultimate step, odds are you have a high acceleration or high velocity of toe off. You have a high velocity of toe off and when your plant foot hits the ground

Isaiah:

Absolutely. You're gonna have to the penultimate step.

John:

Of the penultimate step. If you have more time in the air, two things happen. One, you can reconfigure your limbs into a better position. That's advantageous because that's gonna give you more time. Yeah.

John:

Right? If you have a if you have a higher flight time, as a result, you can pre contract. If you can pre contract, you can also produce more force when you do hit the ground. Right? If you have a longer penultimate stride, you probably have more horizontal momentum.

John:

If have more horizontal momentum, then because you've had a lot of time on the ground to accelerate off that stride. Right? If you don't have a lot of time on the ground on the penultimate step, you can't accelerate very much. That impulse still applies on the step prior. So if you have a big stride and you push off it hard, especially if you don't have an initial velocity off that step, there's just one stride.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

You're gonna continue to accelerate. If you continue to accelerate, typically athletes function more optimally because of rhythm. Rhythm plays a big role in jumping. Mhmm. Right?

John:

And coordination and kind of knowing how and when to apply a lot of force. So then when you do hit the ground, you're now going to yield more into a deeper knee flexion position. Yeah. Now that's good because it's gonna give you more time to push up positively. Mhmm.

John:

Now we're not even talk that's just mechanics. We haven't even talked about the biology.

Isaiah:

And this is all assuming intent

John:

Is a 100%.

Isaiah:

Is a 100%.

John:

Intent has to because peak force will drop if it's not.

Isaiah:

Exactly. Like because you could, like you like the example we gave earlier, you could just try to spend more time on the ground, but your Force will probably go way is gonna go down, and then force will go down as a as a result of that. It's like the only way you can really maximize time on the ground while intent is high is by changing your technique.

John:

Yep, that's it. That's the only way. So if you're gonna you could hypothetically yield more and slower into a deeper position. You could hypothetically do that, but p force is gonna drop. P force will drop at

Isaiah:

that point. So I have a question and I wanna give my hypothesis for it before you give your answer. So one of the cues that has helped me the most and that I see help other athletes the most, is the last two steps as quickly as possible. Mhmm. Which is technically spending less time on the ground if you do it correctly.

Isaiah:

My hypothesis for why that's working, even though we wanna maximize time, because that's impulse. Right. My hypothesis for why that works is one, intent will probably be higher. Two, you have more speed coming out of the penultimate as your plant foot's hitting the ground, so you're eccentrically loading more, and you get more out of your stretch reflex, force is augmented, peak forces are higher

John:

Mhmm.

Isaiah:

When it's less time. Or or when you're queuing, be quick on and off the ground quick, like fast last two steps.

John:

Right. Because I don't think on and off the ground quick. I think contact the ground. Get both feet to hit the same time and for

Isaiah:

the sound.

John:

It's like boo boop. Yeah. And push as hard as you can out of that position. Here's the thing. When your block foot hits the ground, your plant foot's already in maximum maximum flexion.

Isaiah:

Happens Wait. Say that sound

John:

a second. When your block foot hits the ground, your plant foot is almost in or or in maximum flexion. Right?

Isaiah:

Yeah. Like it's not gonna keep going

John:

what what if you just said, hey, I said, Isaiah, don't bend your knees on this jump. You can do that. You could do that. You'll just break all the momentum. There has to be a translation of your momentum forward and upwards to see you have to flex your knees to jump.

John:

Right?

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

So what what the force time curve would look like? It's gonna look like a depth drop if you just hypothetically you'll just dissipate all the energy. You'll stop all your momentum. Your negative vertical velocity will go to you know, it'll go from negative point o three to meters per second to zero. Right?

John:

Yeah. And then there's no eccentric force. The muscle's done producing force. Now you're just holding an isometric condition in a poor leverage position and then you could hypothetically push out of that. And you'd have infinite time, but because of the system, if you correct for your body weight for the system, you'll come back up to where there's no net force and therefore no So,

Isaiah:

alright. I wanna give the viewers, because this is probably very science heavy, and I wanna give you guys actionable information. When somebody looks at impulse, they're you're gonna hear more time spent is better technically. But I feel like do you agree with me that it's technically a bad cue to tell somebody I

John:

would never tell someone a would never ever ever use that cue ever. Yeah. I would say squat deeper. I would say, allow yourself to get into deeper knee positions. Yeah.

John:

Feel your quad tension increase. Yeah. I would say that. I would never say try to spend more time on the ground.

Isaiah:

And it's always with the assumption.

John:

Horrible cue. Horrible cue.

Isaiah:

And it's always with the assumption. I would I would in terms of like the importance of cues, I think rhythm and timing is the most important thing. And then second most important would be intent and whatever cue allows you to have the most intent.

John:

Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Like technically speaking, I think that there are big picture things that people struggle with because they can have good rhythm and they can have good time they could have good timing and they could have high intent and they might still jump high. Know, look at Anthony Height.

John:

Yeah. Because big picture, all they're low and they're fast. If they're low, they're gonna have high time. Why do I always say the two things that are most important is if you're low and if you're fast. Because if you're low, your time on the force time curve goes up if you're low.

John:

Yeah. That's really important. Right? If you're fast, your eccentric rate of force development is gonna go up, which I didn't get to, is going to load your tendon more, which gives you more efficient transfer of horizontal to vertical momentum, which means you're gonna have a higher vertical velocity and thus a higher jump.

Isaiah:

Mhmm.

John:

So it's really important to be low and fast. However, inside of that is where you'll start to see these little nuances happen with the penultimate step and things like that. But like you said, you know, if your rhythm is really quick or or, you know, your time or better yet, your rhythm's really shitty

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

Or your your timing is really bad or you you don't get the plant and block foot down in in the right position at the right time, it doesn't matter how low and fast you are. At that point, you're not gonna be able to have the right movement strategy. So I would kind of view it in terms of all of this stuff is assuming your movement strategy is solid. Right? Once you have a solid movement strategy the the movement strategy is gonna dictate the force time curve.

John:

Yeah. The force time curve doesn't dictate the movement strategy. Right? I mean, I guess it does in a sense, but you don't you don't think to yourself, I'm gonna produce more force there. You're you're obviously, you're trying to jump as high as you can.

John:

Of course, you're trying to produce as much as you can. Right? I don't even tell I wouldn't even tell myself that because what does that even fucking mean? I would say like, jump as high as you can. Yeah.

John:

Run as fast as you can or lift the weight as push up push on the ground as hard as you can. Like, that's meaningful. Not produce as much force as you can. That doesn't mean anything. That's a really bad cue.

John:

Spend as much time as you can on the ground. That doesn't mean anything.

Isaiah:

That's why I would be wary of when you get really into the physics, I think it's it's good for describing why things happen. But I would be very careful of trying to use it for like cues. And I feel like a lot of athletes overcomplicate.

John:

Yeah.

Isaiah:

Like, you know, we joke around about all the time with athletes that they'll be like, should my should my right ankle be at 45 degrees and then when should I start applying force with my right foot? And then how should I roll onto this foot? And then they're trying to think of like everything. It's like they're trying to think of the science of jumping.

John:

That's it. They're trying to think of like, what's the full dissertation of John and Isaiah's jumping? As While they're on the fucking ground for

Isaiah:

point three seconds.

John:

For point three seconds. Like, bro, you can't think of a four page paper. You have point three That's the blink that's almost the blink of an eye. So you can only think about one thing, push up. You always want cues to be as clear, concise, and concrete as possible for that reason that you don't have a lot of time.

John:

And of the thing that you're thinking of or the cue that we're giving you, that's probably less of that point o point three Yeah. Seconds on the ground or three hundred milliseconds on the ground. Know, maybe it's only the first half I want you thinking about that. Right? Like plan on your heel.

John:

Well, that's eighty milliseconds of the three hundred milliseconds is you focusing on you planning on your heel. So you don't

Isaiah:

And then by then it's like your brain can't process. Like for me personally, I can process like two cues. Yeah. At the same time.

John:

Yeah. Everyone has a different amount they're gonna be able to handle and the movement that you do depending on what it is and the time interval that it occurs. You might only have time to think about one. You know, like for upright spurning hit or sensations. People I love sensations, cueing sensations because you can feel things and process that a lot faster than you can process a word and think about what it means and and apply it.

John:

Yeah. But if it's just a sensation, I just say dial that sensation up. That's way faster to process and have a response and see the the outcome that you want for athletes. And even in myself, that's that's what I do. If I know I'm doing something wrong, I might start with a cue and go back and look at the video like drive the knee.

John:

What does that feel like? When I drive my knee, what do I feel? When I drive my knee harder, what what sensations do I feel more? Right? Is that sensation good or bad?

John:

Is that gonna cause an injury if I keep dialing that sensation up? That's another thing. Right? Like, I can hypothetically dial up my high jump take off more and more impact, more and more intense, more and more pop, but I'll pull my hamstring. I can dial it up to faster, but I'll pull my hamstring.

John:

Mhmm. If I'm doing a penultimate step and I try to dial up the sensation of my hamstring stretching, I will get hamstring tendinopathy or I will pull my hamstring in that situation. My knees, if I want to feel a deeper knee flexion. Right? Or if I need to get deeper in a jump, what am I going to cue?

John:

I'm going to cue feel your patella tendon more. But if I go too far, I'm either gonna jump lower or my tendon is gonna be in excruciating pain. So dialing up those intensities and dialing up those sensations is is something goes back to what we said yesterday. You gotta know your body too and know at what point and I usually don't tell people dial up your sensation more than a seven or eight because I know they'll usually get hurt. And I don't wanna do that.

John:

But I think that's a really good way to cue if you're a coach or you're an athlete and you wanna feel something different. Like for a penultimate step, if I need to kick out more, I'll say I'll say feel your hamstring stretch. Do you feel your hamstring stretch when you kick out? If I need the knee more, I might say feel your rear. Feel your back hip stretch.

John:

Yeah, you know, or something like that.

Isaiah:

What's cool too is like as you get more experienced, I think the transfer of weight room exercises to your jumping improves as well. Specifically I'm thinking about

John:

Like you learn how to connect the dots?

Isaiah:

Yeah, like last week I did single leg hip thrust, the max isometric with the asymmetric hip thrust, asymmetric bilateral hip thrust, and I was telling John, woah, that felt just like my penultimate. The exact same freaking sensation.

John:

It's so funny because I've coached so many elite athletes I've been like, what do you feel here? What do feel here? And they're like, don't know. Don't think about it. And they don't.

John:

But unless you ask them to pay attention and take note of it, then they can communicate it back to you, which is good because I have Isaiah and I can do that. You said something really interesting the other week actually. You were like, when you were talking about that, you were like, it feels like that hit and then I'm like floating in the air and then it's hit hit. And I was like, wait, let me try to visualize, let me try to wrap my mind around what that actually feels like. So if you had to describe what it feels like When you are going through what sensations you feel in your body.

John:

When you're doing a 50.5 inches jump or you're jumping as high as you were last weekend, what do you feel on the penultimate step into the plant and block?

Isaiah:

So when I tested 50.5, I felt like I was running really fast, then I hit my penultimate here and then I literally, it went from like, I'm going really fast to now I'm gonna push myself so I'm even faster throwing myself at the ground and it's literally I'm throwing myself like I can't

John:

You throw yourself in Yeah your

Isaiah:

like I can't overstate how powerful

John:

that Like throwing a baseball? It's like throwing a baseball? Yeah. It's like a ball. You're the ball.

John:

My is

Isaiah:

your arm. My leg is the arm. Literally how it feels. Or like Or it's like a catapult. Like

John:

my Do you leg feel like a stretch on it anywhere? My hip flexor. Feel a lot of stretch

Isaiah:

on your hip Yeah. Feel yeah. Like, I literally throw my hip forward. The guys on Apple and Spotify aren't gonna see this, but I'm literally here.

John:

And then So you're in a slight knee bend, Yeah.

Isaiah:

Slight knee bend. I I'm not as low as I used to. I used to think I was, like, here, but it's more like I'm lower Quarter squat. Through that step, and then once I'm like it's like the reverse leg in a lunge, like a reverse lunge, the back leg.

John:

So once your knees once your thighs like

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

Like perpendicular to the ground

Isaiah:

like Yeah, here, and then from here it's like and I literally, my chest, it feels like it goes vertical, and I used to, I watched freak jump technique when I was 16.

John:

It's a push stretch.

Isaiah:

Yeah, he always said, keep your chest up, so that's the only reason I keep my chest up now. But I literally go here, and then it's like and I literally feel a stretch.

John:

That's what I feel when have good technique. The thing that happens though is I hurt my labrum because I don't have the mobility you have. So I've not over cued that too much. Yeah. But I do tell myself to like it does feel like a throw like I wanna feel as much wind in my face on that stride as possible.

John:

I wanna feel as much like, because what does speed feel like when you're moving really fast? You have a lot of money. You feel the Yeah. Feel the speed. You feel the space around you moving really fast behind you.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

You feel almost like the blur of it. It it it super fast. So it's like Yeah. I wanna feel like I'm moving even faster off of it. And I'm like you said, you're throwing it.

John:

Right?

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

So you're already having things, you know, go past you and your periphery and you're getting closer to the takeoff. It's like I want to approach those things even faster. Want that sensation of me moving through space to be even increased. And I wanna feel that stretch so I know that I'm in the right position. Yeah.

John:

So then when you're in when you're in flight, does it do you feel like a almost weightlessness?

Isaiah:

I'm free fall. Like I'm literally like the sixteenth depth jump is You're just waiting. You're waiting. I'm literally just waiting for the, like I'm in the air for a while. And that's why we see like one of the biggest things with like inexperienced jumpers and then the elite guys is like the inexperienced guys aren't in the air for that long.

Isaiah:

It looks like they're I agree. They're just stepping. Hit don't actually

John:

know, it's like a jump off of the penultimate

Isaiah:

It's step. So I was thinking about this It's step

John:

versus a jump off of it.

Isaiah:

Was talking about this the other day, like we should be calling it penultimate jump.

John:

Yeah. I know. I always say it feels like a jump if you do it right. It feels like you're jumping into the takeoff.

Isaiah:

Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like it's it's a weird jump though because you can't it's like a

John:

It's not up. It's like

Isaiah:

a one foot broad jump. Yeah. Where you're Yeah. Yeah. Where you're like still trying to stay balanced and jump that.

John:

That's actually a really good way to word it. It feels like you're

Isaiah:

Like you know that bio, the broad jump to

John:

the But thing is I've tried to have guys stand on one foot and jump off of that back leg and they cannot connect the dots. Be fair, the person that we tried it with Yeah, I remember was not very coordinated. But it does feel exactly like that and it's one of those things where if you're a good athlete, you're probably gonna learn how to learn. You're gonna learn how to acquire that skill without me having to go that far to use that drill.

Isaiah:

The thing is, is like, when I'm thinking so when I go with a short approach, it feels totally different.

John:

Oh, will. Yeah. Will. And this is what I was gonna say too. The more speed you add, the more speed you add to the approach.

John:

This applies for bounding, this applies for one foot. The sensations you have are gonna change. Why? Because you're not gonna have as much impulse off of that step. Meaning, you're not gonna have as much time.

John:

Yeah. The forces are probably gonna drop because you already have an initial momentum. You might still increase the velocity a little bit, but the step's gonna feel entirely different because the time that you're on the ground that step is different. Right? The rate of force you're applying on the penultimate step, the time you're on the penultimate step is gonna be shorter.

John:

The the velocity you have into the step and out of the step is gonna be higher. Right? Yeah. So it's gonna feel different. And so when you add steps, that's even harder.

John:

Right? A lot of people can do it off one step. Yeah. But that that's why you add another step.

Isaiah:

It then you do it weird as hell, but when I go short approach, so if I'm going off vert or one step, two steps is when I start being able, it starts feeling basically the same as my full approach. But it's almost like I use gravity to accelerate. Like if I'm like here, and I'm like, let's say I'm in a game, and I I I get I just have this, I

John:

literally You have like got a tiny short penultimate step, like six It's like

Isaiah:

I literally just let, like, I like

John:

You fall into it.

Isaiah:

I I completely get off of this leg, and yeah, then I just fall into it.

John:

You know what's funny on on a force plate, if you looked on a force plate on a counter movement jump Yeah. That's when the force drops below. Like if you're standing on the force plate, you'll see a line at your weight. Right? So let's say, you know, and then and then the line will drop down below, you know, what it was because you're accelerating downward.

John:

You've applied less. You're not applying the same force into the ground or the ground's applying to you. Now applying less force and therefore you will fall. Right?

Isaiah:

Mhmm.

John:

And then you use that energy, that negative vertical velocity to load your tendon, right? By yielding and creating eccentric eccentric greater force development, stretches the tendon, boom, you explode out of it. Whereas when you do a full approach, you have horizontal as well as the, you know, horizontal momentum as well Yeah, as the exactly.

Isaiah:

Just on a It is literally a

John:

switch charger on the But but that's the thing. People are well, don't know how to use it. I'm like, well, this is a skill. It is a skill. It's not the same.

John:

It's not the same. They're related. They're not the same.

Isaiah:

On an approach?

John:

I can barely do it without an approach. Let alone while I'm running. I would love that. That's another good idea. That next week, decided, by the way, this is somewhat tangential.

John:

I'm gonna yell at Isaiah like I'm an angry college coach cursing at him. If he misses a dunk, I'm be like, that's a fucking easy dunk, you bum. Like like a pissed off college who's the coach that yells like that?

Isaiah:

Oh, I don't know.

John:

Do you know what I'm talking about? There's been a couple He was like one of the first guys who started. Yeah. Oh, man. He used to throw chairs on the sideline.

Isaiah:

Or not the the Hoosiers coach Yeah. From like eighties or something like. I don't know what you're talking about.

John:

Anyways, that's what I'm gonna do. But anyways, I feel like that there's so much we could talk about more

Isaiah:

about This can literally be a three hour, like, we could

John:

talk about Segment about sensations of what What you should to think about when you want to jump higher.

Isaiah:

There's actually a whole another, I was gonna ask you but I'm not anymore but there's a whole another subset of like the conversation about impulse and its implications for training.

John:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a

Isaiah:

I think that's more so where the physics understand the understanding of physics helps is not as much with technique, but how you plan training. Yeah.

John:

I think so too. Because it's when you look at a force plate, the force plate doesn't tell you if it's eccentric, concentric, or isometric muscle forces happening.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

So that even plays more of a role because if you're just looking at a force time curve, it doesn't mean anything unless you're looking at it synchronized with three d motion capture data. Meaning, you have an image that is moving while you move across the force time curve to show you what's happening with the body or the subject that you're looking at. So if you're a jumper, right, what happens when your foot hits the ground? At that at that instant, what happens on the force time curve? Unless you have it synchronized with three d motion capture, which is why labs are so expensive because you need three d mocap and you need a force plate setup that is synchronized, and you need to know how to look at the data, which is a whole different skill.

John:

Like, I could tell you what I need to look at, but I don't know how to use the software well enough where I could run the whole setup myself. You have to put markers all over. It's very But it's intuitive. And Dean actually has access to that if we ever wanted to do it in Arizona. Full mocap setup.

John:

He's offered us to go. Would be crazy

Isaiah:

to like be in 50.5 shape And then do it. In an environment where you can, where I can test 50.5, but it's With mocap? Mocap, force plates, all that stuff.

John:

Oh, it would be very, very, very, very insightful.

Isaiah:

And then the meta would be, like, after each cycle, Like every time

John:

you Oh, Absolutely.

Isaiah:

Because we we noticed this about the first time I tested 50, and then the last time I tested 50, my ground contact time was way shorter.

John:

Oh, dude. It would be

Isaiah:

incredibly jumps. Essentially the same height jumps. Like it was the height check specifically Right. Like that. Chad, the same flight time or like really close to the same flight time.

Isaiah:

But the ground contact times are different.

John:

So this is this is what's really interesting is like research shows or demonstrates that you can get the same jump height from the same person two different ways. One when you're fatigued, one when you're not fatigued, the strategy you pick will be different. How you got that force, how you got to that point will be different. So your question that you started at the beginning of the podcast that I didn't really fully answer or get to answer was what happens when you have the same jump height, but I decrease time? Shouldn't I jump higher with more time on the ground?

John:

Your peak force went up. That's the only way your impulse curve was steeper and shorter, which is better for performance on the court or anywhere else.

Isaiah:

Well, get I off the ground quicker than

John:

you can. Yeah. So now what happens if we keep shortening that. Right? Well, what would have to happen to get the same jump height is now the curve has to be steeper.

John:

The rate of force development has to be faster. The peak forces have to be higher. Right? Which is better usually for everything else. Mhmm.

John:

Maybe maybe you weren't as strong as you were when you first tested 50.5, meaning you couldn't handle the intramuscular force.

Isaiah:

You couldn't run as fast.

John:

You couldn't handle the eccentric forces as quickly.

Isaiah:

I have theory about that

John:

as well. And the other thing too that is even more or additionally that happens is your tendons got more efficient.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

They had to have. Yeah. I mean, there's no way you could apply force faster in less time. You you got more force in less time. Yeah.

John:

That is the opposite of what muscles do. Muscles All tendons do. Do not get more force in less time unless it is eccentrically and maybe isometrically when you're increasing force on a ramp protocol. Meaning, his tendons stored more energy quickly. It's not like his concentric force went up.

John:

No. His tendons just got better at storing that energy faster and more efficiently. So when he did push up concentrically, you got a shit ton of force out of him.

Isaiah:

So there's another there's another variable that I was thinking about, because somebody told me, they pointed this out, they were like, why is your why are you higher up? Like your range of motion on your jump isn't as high as, and your penultimate looks different. Like I'm higher up, and me tearing my My T band, yeah. Is another variable.

John:

What if you never tear that?

Isaiah:

Because like, I eventually, this whole year, I've been I, like, I have been scared to load low on my jump, like Yeah. My range of motion.

John:

I agree.

Isaiah:

And then I think that has had, I mean, less range of motion, less time. I have to spend less

John:

So, yeah. You you basically shifted it and said, look, I don't have the luxury of time anymore. Yeah. So I'm gonna favor peak force less time, which makes sense. If you're in lesser range of motion Yeah.

John:

Like guys like Anthony Height. He has less compression on the hip, but also in terms of force muscularly, your force can go

Isaiah:

up. Yeah.

John:

You can have more peak force. You're in a better leveraged position. You can produce more eccentric force. Intramuscular force might have been maybe it was higher. Maybe you had better cross bridging.

John:

Intramuscular force had to go up. Yeah. But, you know, that's probably what it was. You're probably in a better length tension relationship. Probably have more cross bridging, more eccentric force in that higher position, and you were able to do it in less time.

Isaiah:

And it makes sense now.

John:

It's only marginally. Now, not really. Was what? Twenty milliseconds? Yeah.

John:

That's still kind of why.

Isaiah:

Now now thinking back, it it it also makes sense that I would get more out of power work. Yeah. If I'm not

John:

An elastic work.

Isaiah:

If I'm having to spend less time on the ground on my jumps now. Yep. Because of my hip.

John:

That's actually really enlightening.

Isaiah:

Yeah.

John:

That that tracks. Yeah. That's maybe why you're following more traditional periodization strategies and when we were like, woah, plyos are working. Yeah. Because you have to.

John:

Before I was like, well, I can go deeper and so I will use more forceps.

Isaiah:

And then I'm not as low on my squats too. That's transferring a little bit more this time. Like, it's really interesting.

John:

So now all we gotta do is just get you so healthy you can get to those four ranges of motion.

Isaiah:

Yeah. Like now what happens if

John:

I get lower and Probably the world just probably probably get a ripple in the four in the time space continuum and probably just Tell the world. Ends. Everything ends. I don't know. Anyways, if you guys enjoyed this podcast, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe.

John:

If you were confused, I'm sorry.

Isaiah:

I have a tip actually. If you don't understand anything, the point where you got confused, pause it and look up whatever term you don't know.

John:

Yeah.

Isaiah:

That's how I I learned about this stuff, it's probably how John learned as I he was think you mentioned that the other day, that you look up. Look up anything you don't know from a reputable source and

John:

You just fucking Google it.

Isaiah:

Yeah. You just Google it. You don't know what impulse is? Google the equation. Oh, you don't know what force is?

Isaiah:

Look up the equation.

John:

Easy enough.

Isaiah:

And that you will learn. And the it'll be time well spent. So

John:

Perfect. Anyways, like, comment, subscribe if you want to jump higher and you want to work with two of the most knowledgeable and also the world record holder in vertical jump and a coach who has practiced both in science and with anecdote. Go to teachrestraint.com and sign up right now. We are on a massive discount. It will not stay here.

John:

We cannot afford to keep at this price. We will eventually have too many people. And so we're gonna do this for as long as we can. It was something I wanna do and he wanted to do. You guys are serious about getting better, go there.

John:

Yeah. Thanks, guys.

Isaiah:

The cut the cutoff is happening soon. We're gonna

John:

watch It's closer than you think.

Isaiah:

Also, if you're on a podcast platform, give give us a five star.

John:

Five star, baby. Five star.

Isaiah:

Oh. 38.