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Life creates many in-between moments.
Whether those in-betweens create grief, sorrow, heartache, or pain, also know that joy, refinement, hope, and transformation are just around the corner.
Dinine Sig wants to accompany you in all of these in-between times–because she herself has seen many. The Space In-
Between is your opportunity to connect, refresh, and renew yourself. Dinine hosts conversations that will carry you through all of life’s significant moments–all of which will help you feel empowered, encouraged, and understood.
Remember, there is magic found in the in-betweens.
Jean Passanante Part 2of2
Dinine: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. I'm Deneen. I'm the host of this show, The Space
Jean Passanante: In Between. I'm a mom, I'm an attorney, I'm an author, and I'm also a widow. We're gonna get into some really important stuff today, and I'm really grateful that you're here and you're gonna be sitting with us on The Space In Between
Dinine: You left the industry to travel with your husband. I know you didn't necessarily only leave for that reason.
Jean Passanante: Right.
Dinine: But I know that, you know, according to what I've read, you were sort of getting to that point where you wanted to take some time, have your own time. When you speak of agency-
Jean Passanante: Mm-hmm ...
Dinine: have complete autonomy over your time.
Jean Passanante: Yes.
Dinine: And you did not know at that point your husband was sick.
Jean Passanante: No. My daughter had moved to Switzerland, uh, actually Germany at that point, but eventually Switzerland, and she's our only child, and my husband and I were... He had some, what seemed to be muscular problems, back problems, and he was older than I am, and [00:01:00] I thought, "Now's the time.
I'm retiring because I can, and because we need this time to travel together and go see our daughter," and, you know, we, we had a great time traveling together. We always did, and I thought, "This is great." And within a few months he got really sick, and, uh, it was clear that we were kind of on a downward trajectory.
So it was, you know, one of the cruel ironies of life, but it happens, and You know, that was hard, but on the other hand, I was glad I was free of my job so that I could-
Dinine: Concentrate on him ...
Jean Passanante: on him. You know, he needed my help. And
Dinine: around this time, we were doing our activism together-
Jean Passanante: Mm-hmm ...
Dinine: to help resuscitate democracy, maybe.
I don't know. I don't know how to say it, but, um-
Jean Passanante: Yes.
Dinine: But I didn't know, and I'm not a close friend, I didn't know till you announced that he had died. Was that a conscientious decision, or did I just not know because I wasn't following your Facebook?
Jean Passanante: Yeah. I didn't write [00:02:00] about it that much publicly on Facebook or social media, but he, he had some neurological issues, and it, it wasn't entirely clear what it was.
And I don't think I was really plugged into the fact that he had a fatal illness. I, I knew that things were happening, he had trouble walking, his cognition seemed to be failing, and... But it, we got a diagnosis of Lewy body dementia, which is really tough. And then once I knew that, it, it was sort of clear where, where things were headed.
And there suddenly became this period where we had promised each other in, in better times that we would not put each other in nursing homes or hospitals, and we... I don't know that ultimately that would've been a promise I could've kept in the long run, but it worked out to be possible in the short run.
So, you know, there was this year and a half period where I lived in a household full of helpers doing things, and I don't think I talked about it very much, you know, and, and it, and it sort of intersected with the, with the pandemic also. [00:03:00] So there was, you know, there was just-
Dinine: Forced separation, a forced isolation-
Jean Passanante: Yeah
Dinine: in the pandemic. I don't know if you know that my husband died of multiple system atrophy, which is part of Lewy body dementia, or they're similar.
Jean Passanante: Yeah. They're aligned in the wonderful cluster of neurological ailments.
Dinine: When those proteins form on the brain, and the amyloid proteins, and they take over, my husband was initially diagnosed with Parkinson's, but in less than a year, we were s- sent up to, and I don't know if you were also, 180th Street, I'm trying to think of the hospital now.
It wasn't NewYork-Pres. It was, I think, a division of Columbia, and it was their neurological hub. I don't know if you ever went there.
Jean Passanante: No, I don't think so. We were at Mount Sinai.
Dinine: Yeah, I thought it was... I think now that you're saying Mount Sinai, was that up on 100-
Jean Passanante: 100 and something Street, yeah.
Dinine: I thought it was up higher, but, um, we did end up at Mount Sinai.
I'm sorry. That's why I'm like, "Columbia, not NewYork-Pres." And the night before we went to our meeting, I [00:04:00] just looked up, 'cause my husband said, "I'm going to a movement disorder clinic." Will you come with me?
Jean Passanante: Mm.
Dinine: And I was like, "What the hell is a movement disorder?" In my mind, put the kids to bed, and I looked up movement disorders, and Parkinson's is listed.
I don't know if LBD was listed at the time. Multiple system atrophy, ALS. And I'm reading the different symptoms, and I get to multiple system atrophy, and he literally clicks off already, and I, my heart just drops.
Jean Passanante: The same experience with Lewy body.
Dinine: Okay. So we go in the next day, and there's a team.
There's fellows, there's the head doc, there's, you know, the group. Mm-hmm. And they're trying to tell my husband, you know, "It's definitely Parkinson's, but..." And I just finally said, "What about this MSA?" And all these men looked at me and said, "Why would you say the most draconian thing out there?" And I'm like, "Because he clicks off all of the boxes."
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: And they would not give him that diagnosis for another two years.
Jean Passanante: [00:05:00] Wow.
Dinine: And my husband just kept telling me, "You don't understand. I only have Parkinson's." And I'm like, "You have all this." And there was an internal fight between us because I thought the quicker we got to that diagnosis, we might find some help.
And as you know, you're told today is probably the best day he's ever gon- Like, e- each day is gonna get worse. And I was told maybe he has two years. I didn't know how much, and I'm asking you this too, I didn't know how much a feeding tube prolongs life. Mm. 'Cause when they told me he had two years, and we put in a feeding tube, I still thought that would just make him comfortable.
It extended. He went on for almost nine years.
Jean Passanante: Oh, wow.
Dinine: And I just think in this country, a lot of us have grown up with this pull the plug, don't pull the plug, and that's the big thing. "Oh, pull the plug on me, Jean," like your husband might- Right, right ... don't let me s- But there's this-- Talk about layered.
There's hundreds of layers in between plug and [00:06:00] no plug, right?
Jean Passanante: Yes, absolutely.
Dinine: And my husband was in all those layers with no plug. How was it with Jack, if you don't mind me-
Jean Passanante: Well, Jack was, he was very delusional, but not always. They, uh, they say that, uh, Lewy body is up and down. You know, sometimes he was completely rational and watching the news obsessively and railing about Donald Trump and everything and, and also predicting everything that was gonna happen, including he was, his re-election and-
Dinine: He predicted that?
Jean Passanante: Absolutely. Jack was, uh, very smart about politics. You
Dinine: posted this recently. I read it.
Jean Passanante: Yeah. And I, you know, I used to say, "Oh, that's never gonna happen," and he would just look at me like, "Okay." You know, but, uh, it was very confusing. I think these-- I remember saying to one of the neurologists who helped us that it just seemed like Nobody really had a handle on what was really going on with him, and they said, "Well, yeah, because we can't open up the brain and take it out and look at it, you know?
So we can only make clinical diagnoses," and they're very hesitant to do that.
Dinine: Were you asked about [00:07:00] a postmortem brain study?
Jean Passanante: No. Nobody asked. And I think he was misdiagnosed for years. I think he had some kind of Parkinson's. And I also think that things have really changed in terms of how doctors regard Parkinson's i- in relation to Lewy body and these other things, that they're in a group, you know.
Because at one point, Jack had ... Suddenly he really, I don't know a better way to put this, just kind of went nuts, and he was speaking in, you know, what they call word salad. Didn't make any sense, and-
Dinine: Almost like a stroke?
Jean Passanante: Yeah. I- that's what I thought had happened. I took him to the hospital. It was, everything was, you know, eliminated as a possibility except ultimately they thought he had an autoimmune encephalitis, which is a very specific antibody that they found in a test that they did.
It's very unusual, but it does happen. But then it didn't re- it, you know. I mean, I won't go into all the details, but ultimately one of his doctors said to me, "Yes, I think he did have that, but there's something else going on, something bigger." [00:08:00] And then the Lewy body diagnosis came up. But to forward to your question about the plug and not the plug, you know, I just felt like we were just waiting with him, and, uh, he didn't wanna be in a hospital, so the, the feeding tube didn't seem like
Can you do that at home? You can't. You have to have nursing.
Dinine: You can do it, but it takes an awful lot of ... My husband was just admitted to a rehab, and at that point, quickly, within two weeks, he lost 40 pounds. Oof. And that's when they said to us, like, "He's not thriving, so he won't make it another week if we
And I was like, "What are you talking about?" Like, it just, he had ... It wasn't years and years into it yet, so I didn't have my chops yet, which-
Jean Passanante: Right. You do develop. That's for sure. Yeah ...
Dinine: and I didn't have them yet, and they were like, "We need to put a feeding tube. We need to place one within the next two days."
And they were like, you know, "Well, it'll help us administer medication. It'll also keep him on a baseline nutrition." And I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, no one said, "If you give him the feeding tube," which he [00:09:00] didn't want initially, but then this came on so quickly-
Jean Passanante: And he was able to make rational decisions.
Dinine: Yeah.
Yeah. Like, he wasn't able to speak well, but he was, his brain was still ... But no one said, "If you give this man a feeding tube, you are prolonging his life by seven, eight, ten year..." Like, you know. And w- I don't think he would've In that sense, wanted it.
Jean Passanante: Right.
Dinine: And maybe I would've moved him to New Jersey where you have more choice when it does become...
I just, I was like, "Okay, okay, we'll do the feeding tube." Like-
Jean Passanante: I'm amazed that they didn't say that to you. No one said that to you.
Dinine: They didn't explain that it would prolong life, no. And I'm a lawyer, and then when they came, they're like, "We have to do this or he's going to die." Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "But he has this disease.
I don't..." And they're like, "It's just to help us med- administer medication and keep him baseline." I thought, "Okay, so that two-year timeline, we're only in the first three months of it. This will keep him alive for two years. This will give my kids a chance to say goodbye." I did not know it was [00:10:00] gonna extend to almost a decade.
And I don't know if I'd do anything different now, Jean. Right. But what I'm saying is We're no longer in the state of you can leave somebody directions, you can leave them to your daughter, pull the plug if I'm in a coma for more than 28 days. There's so many layers now to med- to medical care, and so I've said to my kids, "Whatever makes you comfortable."
Like, if you want me around, and I'll move to a state where that is. Yeah. I think there's about nine states now that allow someone to have more autonomy over the end of their life and dignity, but New- New York is- Is not one of them ... not one of them.
Jean Passanante: No.
Dinine: No. And I learned that, so, um-
Jean Passanante: Vermont. Um, uh, Washington State, I think.
Dinine: I think New Jersey too- New Jersey ... has a little bit. I-
Jean Passanante: Yeah ...
Dinine: someone said that they were able to get, the woman herself was able to get her feeding tube removed in New Jersey. I would have to look into it further, but Washington State is the place I'm thinking of that I would go. I didn't know Vermont was one of them too.
Okay.
Jean Passanante: So you know, there, there are residency [00:11:00] requirements, et cetera. Switzerland you can go without being almost at the brink of death, you know? I mean, that's the real issue in the United States is assisted suicide is only if you're really almost gone.
Dinine: But the medical interventions could keep you going way past what's almost- Right
I mean, I don't, I feel so both- like I said, both ways on it. And it is complex, and that's why I say to my kids, because they had to watch their father die, "If you guys, whatever makes you comfortable." Like, but that's something I learned. I wanna ask you about caregiving, right? I learned through my own caregiving what I want for myself is what's best for my kids.
What did caregiving teach you about love and presence and surrender? Because I think there's a lot of surrender in accepting that the person you love is going to die.
Jean Passanante: Well, I felt at some point that I had to accept that there was nothing I could do that was gonna prolong his life except try to [00:12:00] keep him comfortable.
And I tried to find people to help who were kind and easy to be around and made him feel unthreatened. 'Cause he was, his mental state was really shifting at this point. He had some moments of paranoia, and he, he thought one of the caregivers was a spy. He thought the other one was lying under his bed and, you know- That's so hard
doing unspeakable things to, you know. So we had a lot of problems with that. But for the most part, they were all very kind. And they were living in my house 24 hours, so I had to make peace with that. And you know, I, I knew Jack was dying, and it was clear. And sometimes I was angry. I realized I had all this anger.
Like, "Why are you doing this? Why did this happen? Why can't we be- Going about our lives and, you know, traveling. Yeah, it was very difficult, and I, I did have my doctor and his doctor both told me that I had to take care of myself, and I know I've, I've heard this on other of your [00:13:00] podcasts, the, the discussion of caregivers are in great peril of losing their own health and their own lives.
And so I tried to be really kind to myself when I could, you know. But yeah, it was, it was, you know-
Dinine: Did you have, like... For me, I don't know which one of my shows you might have heard this on, but I just liked being invited for coffee or a drink. That was my self-care because I really couldn't do it at home.
I had two small kids that became bigger kids with anger issues because of their dad, and I just loved it when people didn't feel sorry for me, but said, "Hey, let's go for a drink." Our friend Jay was one of those people. I had other friends that were like, "Let's just go for a drink."
Jean Passanante: That's the best thing I think you can do for somebody.
Dinine: Was that for you, too? Like, did you, just getting out for a little bit and being able to talk about a movie or Todd Manning or-
Jean Passanante: Yes. Right. Yeah ...
Dinine: whatever, so... I'm glad that people did tell you, and you did take care of yourself. Your daughter was older, I think, than my kids when this [00:14:00] happened.
Jean Passanante: Yes, and having her own ba- her first child, you know, was born during the pandemic, and in Germany, so that, it made it very-
Dinine: And you couldn't leave, right?
Because-
Jean Passanante: I couldn't leave, and I couldn't leave, you know, but I, I, I did eventually leave to be able to go over there. It was quite an adventure getting into Germany during the pandemic, let me tell you.
Dinine: During COVID? Yeah?
Jean Passanante: Yes. I felt like a spy. I had my, my, you know, "These are my papers." You know, I had all this information about-
Dinine: Oh, God
Jean Passanante: uh, permission from her doc- or, you know, a letter from her doctor, a letter from my doc- I mean, everybody we knew, all these, because, you know, my, somebody told my daughter, "Germans love documentation." You know, just give them a lot of paper, and they'll let you in. But I realize now, I went all the way there without knowing if they were gonna let me in, so they barely let me on the plane, but they did.
I mean, this was in June of, you know- 2020 ... 2020, you know. Wow. So yeah, it was pretty crazy, but- And, and Jack was not terribly ill at that point. I was able to leave [00:15:00] him, but, um-
Dinine: I'm glad you got there.
Jean Passanante: Yeah. I, I did. I was able to.
Dinine: Glad you got through. Glad you had the paperwork. That's reminds me of, like, an old movie or something, like-
Jean Passanante: I know.
It was... I, I needed to be in a trench coat with a hat saying, "These are my papers."
Dinine: Ah.
Jean Passanante: All birth certificates. And we... I was giving them all kinds of things that they didn't really need, but, you know, was just trying to create a d- a document.
Dinine: A document file, like, "Look-
Jean Passanante: Right ...
Dinine: here's me. This is my blood type."
Jean Passanante: Yeah, yeah. I know. It was hilarious.
Dinine: So we talked about surrender a little bit.
Jean Passanante: Yeah. That's really the, the word, for sure.
Dinine: But there is an Erica Kane-ness even in the surrender. And I, I hope you'll forgive that.
Jean Passanante: Oh, no, it's true.
Dinine: But think about it, because the people that fight it, they, they never meet their strongest self, 'cause they're in some sort of denial.
But accepting it, and I really accepted it. I come from a cancer background in my family, and you hear you have a cancer diagnosis, and everybody fights. Everybody gets in. The doctors wanna get in the fight with you. People wanna [00:16:00] offer you different suggestions. There's a fight. There's no fight with these neurological disorders.
It's like, I would say to the doctor, he'd keep giving us three-month appointments, "Why are we coming back here?"
Jean Passanante: Right. Mm-hmm.
Dinine: It takes me a half a day to get him in the car to go to NYU, which is close to my apartment.
Jean Passanante: Well, that, for me, was the great savior for me, was hosp- Because once it was clear that Jack was going to be home probably until he died, we decided to contact hospice.
At that point, you know, they say that it, palliative care, but it was clear that it's set up for somebody who is terminally ill. But it's also possible to do it for a while, and if the person is doing okay, then they'll-
Dinine: Get recertified ...
Jean Passanante: you can, you have to get recertified. Yeah. So I thought, let's just do it, because they provide some very valuable services.
Dinine: I hope that's going to be there. I hope with all these cuts that people that are going through what you and I went through, I didn't use hospice till the very end, because he ended up in a nursing home, and it was very close to my apartment, and I [00:17:00] was very involved. But, um, had I chose that, I hope it's there going forward.
Jean Passanante: I hope so, too. And that, well, you know, what you were talking about in terms of the unplugging, that's not an issue, I mean, with, with hospice. There's no plug. So you're accepting that fate from the beginning, and that was very helpful to me, to be able to know that that's the road we're on, and to try to make the best of it for him and for me, too, you know.
Dinine: My biggest problem with, uh, being on that road was nobody, after someone gave me a two-year reference, nobody after that would give me a reference And when I was trying to put it in more black and white terms for my kids- Yeah ... they would say, "Well, you can't tell them he's dying even though he is, because he could go on dying for years, and that will ruin your kids', like, nervous system."
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: And so it was really challenging. I think if it had just been me and Jonathan and I knew I was on that road, maybe I [00:18:00] would have... So there was, even when I knew it, I still couldn't fully dive in and go, "Okay, Daddy's dying. He's dy-" You know, I, it was, it took years of him even being in the nursing home before I finally started saying to the kids as they got older-
Jean Passanante: Yeah
Dinine: and they hit teenage and advanced teenage, like, "Your father is dying- Mm-hmm ... and you need to know this when you're choosing not to go see him," because after a while they got burnt out.
Jean Passanante: Of course, they're kids.
Dinine: They were at baseball practice, they were at volleyball, they were at dance. They're like, "I don't wanna go see Daddy.
Like, give me a few days to myself," and I'm like, in my mind, no more than three days, 'cause I never knew.
Jean Passanante: Right.
Dinine: I went to Wyoming. I went to Jackson Hole, and I told my dad, "Can you help me arrange this? I only wanna be gone for four days, three nights." Then I did Universal Studios, four days, three night- Everything was in threes, because I felt like he wouldn't die if I saw him before the plane took off.
Jean Passanante: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: And then on that fourth day, I got to the nursing home at 10 o'clock at night. Like, I would only give him three nights. I don't know if you [00:19:00] got to that-
Jean Passanante: No, I did, and I took some trips and, and I, I wouldn't have done it except one of the aides said to me, "Jean, when you're not here at the grocery store, he thinks you're here.
And when you are here, he thinks you're not here. So go." You know, and, and that was really true at that point. I don't think he really knew that I'd been away in particular sometime- at the end, you know, towards the end. But it was very hard. I mean, I, I didn't stay away for more than, I guess, a week, but I understand why you did it.
And I think you're, it, it, you're in a completely different situation with your young kids, you know. This was just me and my adult daughter, who is a very rational person, and we talked openly about the fact that he was dying once we knew what he had. It just was a question of how long it was going to take, you know.
Dinine: And I guess that's what I'm saying. Me navigating the how long was just, it was an added hell.
Jean Passanante: Right. Oh, it's terrible. And they don't wanna tell you, and they don't 'cause they're afraid they'll be wrong in one way or the other.
Dinine: Well, they were wrong, and then nobody- They are wrong ... and then nobody wanted to step in.[00:20:00]
Jean Passanante: Then they wanna try it again, yeah.
Dinine: Yeah. Well, um, so I'm glad we shared that. So I'm not sure when Jack passed. Was it three or four years ago?
Jean Passanante: Three years ago.
Dinine: Three years ago. I, that's what I thought. So what helped you begin again? Because you've been quoted as saying you don't wanna move on from it, you wanted to begin again and move forward.
Jean Passanante: Yeah, you don't, I don't think you really move on from the death of a spouse, somebody you loved, and someone you had a family with. You know, you, I mean, yes, you, you step forward, you know. But, you know, you incorporate it into your, who you are. And at that point, uh, I guess I started to think, you know, I, what I really started to be aware of was how fragile life is and that anything could happen to anyone at any time.
And I thought, "What if, what... I am, I'm alone, and my, I have sisters and nieces I'm very close to, but they're all on the West Coast, and my daughter's in Switzerland, and I'm in New York, and I love New York, but what have I always wanted to do?" And I thought, "You know, I wanna travel, but can I do that alone?
[00:21:00] Do I wanna be on tours? Do I," you know, all this stuff. And then I, I met someone by chance at a wedding who told me about part of her... She's a lawyer, and part of her job is helping people get Italian citizenship. She herself is Italian American. And I said, "Yeah, I understand it's really hard. You have to wait years and years to get, you know, an appointment with the consulate."
And, and she said, "Well, there's an easier way. You can move there, and you establish residency, and then you can apply from there." And it's four to six months. And it was like bing, you know, a little light went off, and I thought, "Okay, this is a way of doing something I dreamed of doing at many points in my life, something that it would've been really fun to do with Jack, but now was no longer possible."
Although he always said he couldn't move to another country because he had to watch the Yankees.
Dinine: Okay, Jack, I'm with you on that. Oh, let's go.
Jean Passanante: I tried to tell him, "No, you know, they do have technology for that."
Dinine: Yeah, but that Yes Network is always screwing us over.
Jean Passanante: Exactly, and he wanted it in [00:22:00] real time, and you know, it was hilarious.
Dinine: He bleeds blue.
Jean Passanante: This was his argument for not wanting to move to Europe.
Dinine: I hear you. I, I'm just making a joke. I'm a rabid Yankee fan. Yeah.
Jean Passanante: Are you? Oh, yes. You would've gotten along very well. So yeah, and I thought, "You know what? I'm just gonna do that." And I guess that was my way of moving forward into a new definition of what my life is.
I wasn't any longer working on a television show. I wasn't married to Jack anymore. I didn't have a cohabitant in my apartment, and my family's elsewhere. And I thought, "Well, do something else. You know, redefine your life."
Dinine: It's like a new adventure.
Jean Passanante: It, yes, and, and it has been. It is.
Dinine: Um. And I was going to ask you next, but we're already in it.
You've already just told me what inspired you to seek Italian citizenship and create a new home abroad, so we sort of know that. But, um, I guess you're also talking about this, too. As a solo woman traveler, part-time expat, what have you learned about yourself in [00:23:00] Italy that you, maybe never occurred to you before?
I'm sure you looked at homes, you purchased... I don't, I'm sure you didn't do the $1-
Jean Passanante: No,
Dinine: no ... uh, with $70,000 worth of work or whatever, but, um-
Jean Passanante: At the moment I have an apartment about the size of this studio that we're in, which- Love it ... listeners, is small. And
Dinine: You can lock it and go
Jean Passanante: though, right? That's right.
And it's in a really, really old ancient building on a street that was built by Julius Caesar, you know, in the middle of Torino.
Dinine: Wow.
Jean Passanante: And I've learned, first of all, that it, you know, it's not as easy as I thought it was going to be. I had a fantasy that I would stroll into a, a, a restaurant, there would be a bar, and I'd sit at the bar, and I'd be very friendly with the bartender, and I'd have my, you know, my Aperol Spritz and my, you know, my little aperitivi and, and get to know the lovely people who came in and, you know.
And I realized, uh, first of all, there really aren't any bars in Turin. There, there are restaurants, but it's not like New York where it's always gonna have a bar.
Dinine: Which for solo women, a lot [00:24:00] of us, that's like our saving... If you wanna have a dinner cooked for you, but you don't wanna sit at a table- Right ... I sit at the bar.
I love
Jean Passanante: that. That's right. Yeah. You can go to the bar. And I really thought that's what I would be doing a lot of, but so I'm not. And I do go to restaurants by myself, but it's different. And Italy's very, um, you know, I knew this because I grew up half Italian, uh, family conscious and sociable. They're very sociable, and food is very important, and meals are very important.
And to see a, a solo woman With gray hair, you know, is a little odd, I think, for s- in some restaurants. So that's been kind of a, a, a realization that I'm a little shyer than I thought I was. I'm a little less willing to put myself into a strange situation than I thought I was, and a lot of it is the language, because I'm learning Italian, but it's not easy, you know, at my age to learn anything, a language especially.
But I'm getting there, you know. But the Italians are very [00:25:00] kind, so they'll help, you know, and they're very respectful of older women. So I'm a little more timid than I thought, and I'm trying to break out of that. That's my mission now, that, you know, to start conversations even if I have no idea what I'm saying.
Dinine: You gotta channel that Susan Lucci or- Exactly ... Dorian Lord. That's
Jean Passanante: where the... Exactly.
Dinine: Yeah. I have to
Jean Passanante: do that.
Dinine: So that's an interesting thing you learned after what a lot of us looking at you would say you've accomplished so much, and you... Because I've dreamed of moving to Italy too.
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: But you did it.
Jean Passanante: Well, and I don't know, I didn't know anyone in Turin, which is, I ended up there for various reasons. But I have met some lovely friends, and so that's great. You know, it's nice to have a little bit of a social life there. The other thing I learned is that I really do love to get around by myself, and the, it's the good news and the bad news.
The good news is you don't have to talk to anyone else about where you're gonna go next. You can be completely free. Yeah. And the bad news is you're completely free. Free. And you're by yourself, and you can't, you don't have... You know, my, I don't have my husband to say, "Wow, was that an amazing [00:26:00] thing that just happened."
Dinine: Right. To debrief.
Jean Passanante: There's no debriefing, exactly.
Dinine: I think I miss that part of a relationship the most- Mm-hmm ... is the debrief. I do do it with my dad to an extent- Mm-hmm ... but it's
Jean Passanante: different. Not the same, yeah.
Dinine: And my dad forgets half of what I told him at the beginning. So the debrief is a little-
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: But, um, I was just onto something while you were talking, and you were saying...
So there's a guy on TikTok, and he does these things where he holds his phone and he's like, "Hey, bro, this is so great. I'm so great. We all decided to go on this mountain hiking trip," and then he does this, and there's literally no one. No one. He goes, "I'm alone. Again." "Talk to you guys later." But he does it from all over the world, and he's like, "Oh my God, me and my friends, we have this best..."
And then he's like, he'll show the other table, like he's just one seat at a table. And he does it all the time alone, and I'm like, is he trying to help those of us who sometimes navigate things alone, or is he trying to like- Make fun of him? Like, I can't quite get it
Jean Passanante: Maybe a little of both.
Dinine: Yeah.
Jean Passanante: Maybe I should do that.
Yes. I'll do my own version of that, you know? You
Dinine: should. You should be like, "Hey, it's me [00:27:00] and nobody."
Jean Passanante: Yeah. 20- or 25 families with teenagers and, you know, couples, and here I am,
Dinine: and here's Gene.
Jean Passanante: But, you know, it's, it... Well, the really fun part was that my daughter said to me, "You know, well, you know, you're gonna be here for a while because you're waiting for these appointments to come through," you know, that I had to have with the, uh-
Dinine: Yeah
Jean Passanante: various officials about citizenship, which I now have, by the way.
Dinine: Congratulazione.
Jean Passanante: Uh, something like that. Yeah, I don't know.
Dinine: Okay.
Jean Passanante: Buona fortuna.
Dinine: Buona fortuna. Si, si. Auguri,
Jean Passanante: I guess you would say.
Dinine: Yeah, yeah.
Jean Passanante: And, uh, she said, "As long as you're in Italy waiting for, uh, you know, to get a call about an appointment," 'cause you have to kind of wait.
There's a lot of waiting involved. She said, "You should just see as much of the country as you can." And I thought, "Uh, duh, yeah." Yeah. I mean, why sit around in one place? Yeah. And, you know, there are these wonderful trains, and you look at them and go, "Oh, Verona. Okay, I've never been to Verona. I think I'll do that."
So that's been incredibly great, and I have learned about myself that I'm really good at hitting a new place and figuring out what I wanna see, and-
Dinine: Love that ...
Jean Passanante: and just [00:28:00] feeling free enough to do that, and I feel very, very lucky that I'm able to do that.
Dinine: I'm trying to think. I was in Verona. I'm trying to think of where the train station is.
Jean Passanante: Oh, it's pretty far out. I t- I had to take a bus to the train station, I think.
Dinine: I took a bus directly. It dropped us in a tiny town center.
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: And then you see the, the balcony-
Jean Passanante: Yes ...
Dinine: that's supposed to belong to the-
Jean Passanante: Yes. All these people paying money to see Juliet's balcony. I thought, "You know, she was a fictional character, but whatever," you know?
You pay your money, have a good time.
Dinine: But wasn't it based on a real family?
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: So I- they say that was their... I know, it's just funny.
Jean Passanante: They say that,
Dinine: yeah. It's very romantic anyway, if you ever go to Verona.
Jean Passanante: It is. It's beautiful. It's worth going.
Dinine: Yes. So speaking of travels and having fun- Mm-hmm ... we're gonna go back to something you let me know about-
that I don't know fully about. Can you share the story of getting locked inside- ... Josephine Bonaparte's house- ... with Jack, your husband?
Jean Passanante: Yes. Well, it was, it just seemed like such a perfect Jack and [00:29:00] Jean adventure, because Jack was very much interested in history, and what, he had three great heroes: Napoleon Bonaparte, Julius Caesar, and Ulysses S.
Grant. So I will tell you about the dispersing of his ashes in a moment- ... which has to do with the three of them. But we were in Paris, we went to s- to Malmaison, which was the home of Josephine Bonaparte. I don't know what happened. We, we heard a, an announcement or a bell ringing or something, and we di- we ignored it, 'cause he was so incredibly enamored of every object in this house having been touched by Napoleon, you know, we were in there.
And then we decided to leave, and we realized we were locked in. We were completely locked in. We couldn't get out, and we started to fantasize that they were closed for the day, and we would be there all night, and- ... and could we sleep in Napoleon's bed? And it was sort of like, you know, one of those, like, TV movies about people getting locked in a department store overnight.
Dinine: Yes,
Jean Passanante: yes. Of course we didn't touch anything, you know, because we were afraid alarms would go off [00:30:00] all over the place. But it was just a great ridiculously historical fantasy kind of moment, you know, for the two of us to be in this house by ourselves, and it-
Dinine: How amazing ...
Jean Passanante: it was very romantic. And when I think about, you know, that we didn't get to do more of that kind of traveling together, it makes me very sad, but it was also just a hilariously funny moment.
And they finally came. They'd just gone for lunch, they'd closed the place. So we were only there for an hour, you know, and then we tried to act like we had come in through the back so they wouldn't think we'd been, you know, touching everything or whatever. Yeah. But, you know-
Dinine: Yeah ...
Jean Passanante: we're the most law-abiding people in the universe, so the fact that we were kind of trespassing on this, you know, national treasure was just hilarious.
So when I think of travel, I think of adventures like that. And that's what is a little sad about traveling alone, you know, because you don't... I mean, you can still have adventures, but, you know, it's nice to have someone to share it with, so.
Dinine: Yeah. I mean, you're talking to the girl who, at the Uffizi, touched the slaves with her [00:31:00] actual hand.
Uh-oh. And had security guards running after her. But then when I got, I got back on my tour bus, I was like, "This hand has touched greatness." And every single person on the bus high-fived. Applauded, right. I got, they- They
Jean Passanante: wanted to touch you.
Dinine: Yes Yeah. Because I was like, "I've touched where he's touched, Michaelangelo."
That's great. But I remember I just couldn't stop myself. I had to do it. And they were like, "Signorina, signorina, not touch, not touch." They were running after me and, um, anyway, every single person, including our tour guide, who was like... But he came over- Yes, right ... and like high-fived me anyway. I was like, "I've touched greatness."
Um, so anyway, so I- we're a little different in that regard. But, um- ... I'm thinking if I was in there for just an hour, I would have laid down on the bed. They would probably have like been like, "Excuse me."
Jean Passanante: Yeah. Well, part of the problem was it was very tiny. You know, other, I mean, it was Napoleon, first of all, but not that I'm tall, but, you know, and everything was short then, you know, so it was very funny, but.
You
Dinine: couldn't get lost in it.
Jean Passanante: No.
Dinine: So you were saying [00:32:00] you're gonna tell me how that travel related to Jack's ashes and his love of those three-
Jean Passanante: Oh, well, my daughter and I decided that he didn't make any provision for where he wanted his ashes to be scattered, and he didn't ever really wanna talk about death.
So we decided we're gonna rejoin him with his heroes. So we've already kind of illegally scattered his ashes in the Forum to bring him closer to Julius Caesar, and we, you know, we have more, so the next stop is I'm gonna try to go to Elba, I think, or, uh, where Napoleon was evicted from- France and sent there to be in prison for a while.
And try to get close to his, the house where they kept him, and scatter some more there. And then at Grant's Tomb in Central Park. My daughter and I were gonna do it this summer. We never quite got around to it. Oh. And this is the kind of thing that I think is romantic and wonderful, and he would've gone, "Are you out of your mind?"
Dinine: Are you gonna do like the S- the Shawshank thing with the little hole in your
Jean Passanante: pocket? That's basically what we did in Rome. [00:33:00]
Dinine: Let me tell you about being in that area, the Forum.
Jean Passanante: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: I had an electric shock through my body, and I think I told you about another time before we went on air that I had an electric shock.
I'm Italian-American too. Mm-hmm. I think you know that. I
Jean Passanante: figured that
Dinine: out. I had an electric shock in my body on one of those cobblestone areas. It was just, I felt something just amazing. So I think that's a pretty good place. So I've changed a little bit about ashes, because my in-laws are Asian, and they don't believe in separating-
Jean Passanante: Yes
Dinine: the body.
Jean Passanante: Right.
Dinine: So my husband wanted to be scattered in Hawaii.
Jean Passanante: Oh.
Dinine: And right now he's in my apartment in New York Okay. ... because they don't believe in... So I've kind of let them have a little bit of him. Right now he's there.
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: So that's just another thing. But I hope you get to Central Park. I hope you get there.
It's-
Jean Passanante: We'll get there. We'll, we'll do it.
Dinine: So I know part of what we [00:34:00] wanted to talk about here, and I think we've hit it, Jean, so you can feel good about this, is you said you wanted to speak a little bit on aging and redefining life. And I think just in our conversation, you've shown us about redefining, shifting, not necessarily being stuck by a, something that stops us.
And I have been stopped before. I have allowed myself to stop. Like, nobody else was putting their hand up and going, "Don't go there." Right. But I stopped myself. And I think some of it is heartache, and then there's also, like you said, you learn about yourself and maybe you learn I'm not as good in that situation as I used to be or as I thought I was.
So you wanted to talk about that, and I think we have. But if you had to say something else about redefining or maybe not stopping yourself or invoking your Erica Kane or whatever, do you feel like there's something that we haven't covered yet?
Jean Passanante: Well, in a way we've covered it, but it's just all [00:35:00] about fear.
You know? We, we all carry a lot of fear inside us, whether we are aware of it or not, and I've never thought of myself as a fearful person. I feel, you know, my whole life I've been really independent and I've kind of always followed my own path. But I'm learning that I do have it, but, uh, the only thing to do is take one step at a time and then, you know, see what's out there, and then take another step.
And it's-- I'm very glad that I put myself into this situation where I'm sort of tested, you know? And, you know, it's not always easy, but I think that's good for me. It's, you know, it, it shouldn't be always easy. You know, you do wanna be able to climb a few mountains that you didn't know you could climb.
Absolutely. I think it's in, in this, at this age especially, you know, that we're not done. We've got a lot ahead.
Dinine: Yes. Do you call it second act or third act?
Jean Passanante: It feels like my third act sort of, 'cause I feel like there was childhood and then there was marriage and, and now, and now this is third, you know.
Dinine: I feel like third.
Now, initially I felt like second, but then [00:36:00] as I've become a woman into her own more, I feel like it's third. So I agree with you on that. So when we talk about legacy, not professionally, 'cause I think your professional legacy is, it's written, it's out there, it's amazing. Yeah. I mean, you definitely have a legacy professionally.
But do you have a personal legacy? Like, we're talking about Jack and his love of these three people. What would you want Ruth or little Francie, what would you want them to say about Grandma? The way we know about now Jack's love and-
Jean Passanante: I think, I- sort of what we've been talking about. I, I think I want them to think of me as, as someone brave, you know, who conquered whatever day-to-day hesitations are and just did what I, what I dreamed of doing, and was able to keep moving and-
Dinine: And not be stopped by yourself or-
Jean Passanante: Yes.
And to keep learning, you know, to keep opening my mind to new things and-
Dinine: Yeah, I wanna talk to [00:37:00] you about Italian- Oh, God, yeah ... off air. I wanna, 'cause it's- My son did six years of it and he won't, he won't help me with any- Oh ... of it. He's like, "Mommy, go listen to your own recording." I'm like, "Well, how do I say..."
He doesn't want to. So when you think about the show, The Space In Between, there's moments, we all go through them, between one chapter and the next. So first you were a widow contemplating the loss, and then you stepped into, "I'm a widow, but I'm also a woman purchasing an apartment." Mm-hmm. Like, there's a moment in between.
I think you may have hit this, maybe you're gonna say it's bravery, but I don't wanna put a word. What do you think lives in that space in between for you of those moments? There's Dartmouth to the movie, the movie to meeting Jack, and prior to meeting him. Like, there's in-between moments so many times in our lives.
There was a moment before you became an Italian citizen, right? Is this too hard of a question to answer?
Jean Passanante: Well, it's, it requires [00:38:00] some thought, but I think, you know, there's, there's a certain amount of impulse in me, that I do follow an impulse, and that I, I wanna be able to keep doing that. If I want something and it seems worthy, but you know, that I want to follow impulses.
There's value in that.
Dinine: I think so, too.
Jean Passanante: And there's also love. You know, that in between, it's sort of like, well, who do I love? What do I love? What's important to me? And certainly part of this Italian odyssey has been bringing myself closer to my grandchildren, 'cause I never wanna be, you know, across the ocean from them for too long.
And I want them to know me, you know? And, uh, I really wanna know them as, as children. So you know, I think love takes you to the next step, love of travel, love of the people in your life and, and love what, what makes you happy, you know?
Dinine: Well, I, I would say for me, what I learned, and it took a long time and it took getting clobbered-
Jean Passanante: Mm-hmm
Dinine: in Indianapolis of all places, to learn [00:39:00] that loving myself exists even in those spaces in between, which for me, there's a bravery in saying that out loud. I learned how to literally look in the mirror, which I had never done before, and tell myself, "I love you, and I'm here for you, and it's gonna be okay."
It sounds hokey, I know.
Jean Passanante: No, I, I feel that that's a version of what I was saying is about impulse. It's sort of like honor it, you know, honor myself.
Dinine: And I don't think I was there even after Jonathan died. I think it took this tumult for me to really go, I know where my boundaries are now. I know how I want to be loved, and I'm gonna start loving myself that way first.
And I was never treated badly. It wasn't like something I had to learn, but I did. Somehow I did have to learn it.
Jean Passanante: Well, I think as women, we're taught to put other people first.
Dinine: Well, yeah, and then when you have a sick spouse- Yeah ... you either are the bee that leaves-
Jean Passanante: Right. Yes, exactly ...
Dinine: and my daughter [00:40:00] asked me last week, "Why didn't you just take us and leave?"
I'm like, "I go gray. Could you imagine?" Like, then the whole thing that you had been talking about with your therapist is how I took you away from your dying father. Yeah. Now it's how I kept you. Like, you gotta pick a trauma. Like, I didn't know. So I, anyway... Actually very funny
Jean Passanante: in a horrible kind of way.
Dinine: Yeah, it is. My life is funny in a horrible kind of way a lot of times, especially when it comes to my kids. So where does Jean Passanante find the light nowadays?
Jean Passanante: Find the light? Oof.
Dinine: If you find yourself in a dark moment, I think we've touched on it, but what's the first thing you're reaching for, grabbing for, person, thing,
Jean Passanante: food
Well, certainly friendship and my family. I'm very lucky. I have two wonderful sisters and two wonderful nieces and of course my daughter, most of all my daughter, my granddaughters. A lot of women in my life and that's the light, you know, that they bring me so much joy. And you know, art, travel, food, you know, cooking and reading.
You know, I, I don't know, art, I guess art the [00:41:00] b- broader terminology.
Dinine: So when darkness comes, you're reaching for...
Jean Passanante: I'm reaching for my people.
Dinine: Your people.
Jean Passanante: Yeah.
Dinine: Yeah. That's, I think, also a tribute to your life well-lived, that you have people. 'Cause not everybody ends up with people.
Jean Passanante: I, you know, I... That makes me so sad, you know, but yes, I feel very, uh, fortunate.
Dinine: So Jean, thank you.
Jean Passanante: Thank you.
Dinine: Thank you for sitting with me on The Space In Between. It was amazing to learn more about you and your journey. Thank you for your honesty also, and most importantly, I wanna thank you for reminding all of us, me included, that life doesn't stop after loss. It shape-shifts, and that reinvention is possible at any age.
Absolutely. And I'm so grateful you're here, and I would love to do this again, and maybe just talk about soaps, but this is amazing. Sure. It's been such a pleasure and, and eye-opening for me, too. Thank you. [00:42:00] Thank you, Jean.
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