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In this episode, I spoke with Ozzie Gonzalez, Principal and Owner of P3 Consulting, (people, planet, profit) about his fascinating journey from architecture into environmental consulting. Ozzie has applied his architecture skills to help companies develop sustainability policies and embed social responsibility into their work.
We discuss how Ozzie got started in green building, and expanded into broader corporate strategy during the recession. He shared great insights on working with clients ready for bold change and bringing more creativity into consulting.
I appreciated Ozzie’s perspective on creating rich human experiences through his work. It was wonderful to hear how he lives out his values while guiding organizations to address problems in new ways.
Highlights:
- Ozzie was drawn to architecture as a way to create better human habitats after studying environmental science. He was especially interested in sustainability from the start of his career.
- He started by doing green building consulting for architecture firms before transitioning into teaching sustainability courses during the 2008 recession.
- Ozzie helped develop sustainability policies and standards for global manufacturing companies, allowing him to have impact beyond individual buildings.
- He looks for companies talking boldly about sustainability goals but struggling to meet them as potential clients.
- Ozzie aims to bring creativity into his consulting process through music, art, and playful activities to spark innovation.
- His goal now is helping people have the fullest human experience possible through his work.
Guest Bio:
Ozzie is an artist, a problem solver, and a change agent. Trained as an Environmental Scientist and as an Architect, Ozzie has spent his 25-year career journey dedicated to advancing the practice of sustainable and equitable development in communities throughout the US and Latin America. Using his background in the performing arts, Ozzie utilizes story, music, and narrative style to humanize even the most technical subject matter and capture the imaginations of clients and audiences alike.Ozzie has worked in the construction and design industry throughout his career. He has been involved in sustainable design projects, equitable contracting, and now owns his own consulting practice dedicated to helping clients implement strategies to confront the challenges posed by changes in technology, policy, and culture. In addition to running his own consulting practice—P3 Consulting—Ozzie serves as the Board President for Trimet, Portland’s regional transportation authority.
And if you're in Portland, Oregon, you can find Ozzie at the Trio Club on Tuesdays leading open mics and playing music!
Creators & Guests
What is Tangents by Out of Architecture?
Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture, hosted by Silvia Lee. We’re highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we’ve met along our journey. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm started by two Harvard-educated professionals interested in exploring the value of their skills both in and out of the architectural profession. We’re here to help you maximize all of the expertise you have honed as a designer to get you a role that fulfills and challenges you. We have the knowledge, experience, and connections to help you put your best self into the market–and reap the benefits.
S3 E7: Ozzie Gonzales
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Ozzie: [00:00:00] people often ask me,~ well, you know, ~what do you do for a living?
Ozzie: ~And, ~and the best thing I can say is,~ like, I,~ just like with architecture, I take ideas and turn them into a real thing. And I think that's where the line is for me. But now I'm not doing it so much with a building. I'm doing it sometimes with an organization or an initiative. And ~it's been, ~it's been a journey for me that I've guided through impact.
Ozzie: I like to say, I don't,~ I don't, ~chase titles. I don't chase money. I chase impact. And that has been my North Star as I go from one place to another, if I decide to. ~you know, ~pursue a role, pursue a client.
Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of [00:01:00] architecture.
Silvia: ~All right. Can you pronounce your name for me?~
Ozzie: ~Sure. Ozzy Gonzalez.~
Silvia: Our guest today, Ozzy Gonzalez, principal and owner of P three consulting shares his fascinating journey from architecture into environmental consulting. Ozzie has applied his architectural skills to help companies develop sustainability policies and embed social responsibility into the work.
Silvia: I appreciated Ozzie's perspective on creating rich human experiences through his work. It was wonderful to hear how he lives out his values while guiding organizations to address problems in new ways.
Silvia: This is your host, Sylvia Lee. And I just wanted to share something that I've realized halfway through our third season of tangents.
Silvia: It's that our guests roles and titles never really give me a clear idea of exactly what they do. I keep asking questions, finding out more about them because many of our guests have crafted their own career from their unique perspectives. And when I'm chatting with them, the dots always seem to connect between where they are now and how they got there. so.
Silvia: I hope that encourages you in your own career journey. It may not look like anyone else's path and it may feel [00:02:00] very windy at times. But I think that's what it's supposed to look like when you're following your own passions.
Silvia: And you're creating something specific to what you believe in.~ Great. ~
Silvia: And welcome to Tangents. I'm excited to have you here. And our first question is, how would you describe yourself in three words?
Introduction of Ozzie
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Ozzie: That's a great question. ~Uh, ~first one that comes to mind is creative. ~Uh, I, ~that's a big part of my life. ~Um,~
Ozzie: practical in how I apply my skills,~ um,~ so that I can bring them down to the ground and strategic. ~Uh, ~it's the nature. It's part of my nature and architecture has only brought it out more.
Silvia: Awesome. And,~ uh,~ what is your background in architecture?
Architecture Background
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Ozzie: ~Well, ~I've been Practicing, ~I practiced~ in architecture offices for close to 17 years. I entered into the profession~ 2000, see it was ~2005. No, in 2000, I got ~out of, uh. ~Out of my bachelor's degree and started architecture,~ uh,~ I was an environmental scientist and got into architecture because I became [00:03:00] really interested in human beings,~ uh,~ as a species from environmental science.
Ozzie: I was looking at how human beings related to the planet. And a lot of the application was taking me towards like habitat restoration and helping endangered species reestablish all the while. I felt like we weren't as humans getting the same level of attention in the spaces that we occupy. ~Uh, ~so instead of putting my attention towards.
Ozzie: A career that helped bring back like the Spotted Owl or the Grizzly Bear. I decided I want to go back to school and focus on the human habitat. And architecture became the place that I found that allowed me ~to, ~to enter into that conversation. I grew up on a construction site pretty much. My dad's a contractor and I was always helping him build or rebuild things.
Ozzie: So it was a connection of what I did. In my younger years before college,~ uh,~ with how I wanted to [00:04:00] apply myself in as a professional, and I didn't really know at the time what architecture really was,~ uh,~ I just knew that it puts you in the place where you can start looking at human habitat and I approached it from that angle.
Ozzie: ~So, ~So, I got into architecture in 2000 as an intern started while I was in getting my master's degree,~ um,~ and. It was just as green building and sustainability were really starting to come into the conversation. And so I found myself,~ uh,~ I'd say I'm riding the edge of what that conversation was addressing and coming from environmental science.
Ozzie: It felt ~like. ~Architecture was approaching me as I was approaching architecture. And,~ um,~ by the time I finished grad school,~ um,~ I was working with ~architecture offices, uh, with~ an architecture office,~ um,~ helping to manage the sustainability or the green design or the lead certification side of projects.
Ozzie: And so that really shaped [00:05:00] my career. I practiced in residential commercial for a few years. In 2008, I broke away,~ um,~ from practicing in an office for about a year and a half and started,~ uh,~ times were slow then, so ~sort of, ~it was my first forced adaptation. I began to,~ uh,~ start teaching courses. ~Um, ~I knew we all needed to maintain credentials.
Ozzie: ~So, uh, ~I took some of the content I used to share with my staff and started creating AIA courses. It was a way to get to know. My community in that year, I also moved out of Los Angeles where I was practicing,~ um,~ to Portland, Oregon, and I started putting out courses on all kinds of green building, sustainable building, green roofs, solar panels, and how to integrate those into design.
Ozzie: And so that gave me exposure to other architecture offices in the area. ~Um, sort of ~it sort of kept me busy in the scene and,~ um,~ it, expanded me into the next [00:06:00] piece of ~my, ~my practice,~ um,~ because then all of a sudden, education, mentorship became an instrument of how I would work. At that time, I wasn't just going out teaching courses to architecture offices.
Ozzie: I was going to construction companies,~ um,~ and other types of companies from other industries that wanted to learn about what is sustainability? What is green building? There was a lot of interest in that topic area. I did end up going back into architecture in late 2010. I got into industrial facilities and got a position with a firm that was doing manufacturing,~ um,~ advanced technology and,~ um,~ a lot of infrastructure.
Ozzie: All around the world, and I took a position then,~ um,~ leading their sustainability services. So it was ~a, ~a small studio, but we were able to pull from all of the different disciplines inside of the company to help create teams, to solve sustainability problems. And at that [00:07:00] time, It gave me an opportunity to go outside of working on a building and getting one ~one~ project at a time to look at sustainability.
Ozzie: And I started going into,~ um,~ specifications and standards so that we were able to address general environmental responsibility in how people build,~ um,~ Got me into some really exciting stuff at that time. ~Um, ~it wasn't just project specific. ~Um, ~I was working on supply chain as well. ~Like, ~Like, it wasn't just how you make your green buildings better or how you pick better finishes, but it was really looking at purchasing,~ uh,~ in general and how you, create environmental responsibility or environmental,~ um,~ preferences into your purchasing standards and ~it, ~it unlocked me into a.
Ozzie: A world of potential that ~I, ~I came to be afraid of at some point because it's really,~ um,~ it's really impactful when you help rewrite the rules for purchasing materials like [00:08:00] wood, for example. ~Um, ~and you affect all wood purchasing for a global manufacturing company, all of a sudden,~ um,~ with the approval of some, ~you know, ~cryptic paragraph on page 347 of a thousands of page document,~ um,~ this changes how purchasing occurs for that company worldwide.
Ozzie: And it really opened my eyes to. ~Um, ~policy and specifications as an avenue to apply my skill set. So I'd say ~I, I was, ~I quickly moved out of the traditional side of architecture because sustainability was asking me to go ask new questions, get our clients to look at different things ~that, ~that weren't part of the standard kit of parts in the service model and begin to give.
Ozzie: Us ~as, ~as designers, the opportunity to,~ um,~ look at how our projects are gonna impact them in the operation stage or how they're going to affect their [00:09:00] carbon footprint. So at some point I found myself learning about Scope one, scope two, scope three, greenhouse gas emissions, and environmentally responsible sourcing.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~I was able to take the idea of how architecture, ~um. ~Affects industries and extend it beyond just a project by project level. ~Um, ~so nowadays it took, it's taken me to ~sort of the, ~the current incarnation ~of my, ~of my work. I work as a freelance consultant and I help companies across many industries,~ uh,~ implement strategies or develop policies.
Ozzie: for Environmental and Social Responsibility. ~Um, ~somewhere along the lines of my work, as I was working with businesses,~ uh,~ small businesses in my community, at first it started with, let me help you understand what sustainability means to your company, and how you can be proactive in addressing environmental responsibility, if and when your clients are asking you about that.
Ozzie: And eventually that extended [00:10:00] me into helping those businesses Positioned for growing themselves in their local communities, and there was a lot of work there with helping minority owned business, women owned business, veteran owned businesses to position themselves to work for government or for large prime contractors.
Ozzie: And it put me in a place where that. That has really become a growing part of my practice, and it's the social responsibility side of it. ~So, ~that whole,~ uh,~ concept of triple bottom line, people, planet, profit, has been very instrumental to how I've navigated my professional journey, and whether it's helping people Get their environmental responsibility and bring it closer ~to the, ~to the profitability and economic side of it, or whether it's getting folks to look at their social impact and be,~ um,~ proactive in their social responsibility, bringing that closer to their bottom line and profitability,~ um,~ I've ~sort of ~been trying to get clients.[00:11:00]
Ozzie: And to that centerpiece of the Venn diagram where they could,~ um,~ have an authentic approach to,~ um,~ how they work within their communities, how they are inclusive,~ um,~ as an organization, and how they impact ~the, ~the climate as well as ~the, ~the environmental,~ um,~ the relationship, I'll get back to the relationship humans have with natural systems.
Silvia: That's such a beautiful journey,~ uh,~ from architecture to just increasing your impact and your reach and the,~ like, uh, the, ~The depth of ~like ~what you can touch upon and it does feel all very connected to architecture in a way because of the skills and,~ um,~ synthesizing everything, working with people, just understanding the bigger picture at all times while like focusing on the details.
Silvia: What was that journey like as you were just,~ um,~ finding new opportunities as you went and just going down those paths? ~Did, ~did you see the path through [00:12:00] everything or how did you ~kind of ~feel,~ um,~ that the next step was like ~kind of ~where you wanted to go?
Journey on Finding New Opportunities in Architecture
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Ozzie: ~Well, ~I knew that the reason I got into architecture, the reason I got into environmental science and into architecture,~ uh,~ was really because I wanted, it might sound a little cheesy, but I wanted to leave the world in a better place than I found it. And I really thought,~ um, you know, we, we, ~we have the potential to accomplish creating a modern society that is not polluting the planet and is not relying on taking advantage ~of, ~of subjugated people to pull it off.
Ozzie: And it's that thesis that I wanted to test. ~Uh, ~so for me,~ um, it, ~it feels like it's been an evolving journey that has allowed me to apply my skills. In a more precise way, though, on the surface, it looks like I've ~sort of ~been working in all over the place in different industries. And people often ask me,~ well, you know, ~what do you do for a living?
Ozzie: ~And, ~and the best thing I can say is,~ like,~ I, just like with architecture, I take ideas and turn them into a real thing. And I think that's where the [00:13:00] line is for me. But now I'm not doing it so much with a building. I'm doing it sometimes with an organization or an initiative. And ~it's been, ~it's been a journey for me that I've guided through impact.
Ozzie: I like to say, I don't,~ I don't, ~chase titles. I don't chase money. I chase impact. And that has been my North Star as I go from one place to another, if I decide to. ~you know, ~pursue a role, pursue a client. ~Um, ~and I'd say, I hesitate to say pursue a job because it felt like every time I worked in a firm, I was working as the first one to do this thing, whatever it may be.
Ozzie: ~You know, ~when I entered the market, there was no such thing as a chief sustainability officer. ~Um, ~and so every time I've had a job within an organization, ~it's been, ~it's been to help them. Push into areas that they were not previously doing,~ um,~ or at least focusing on ~in a, in a, ~in a concrete way. And ~so, um, ~in the course of that, I came into the term [00:14:00] intrapreneur.
Ozzie: I thought that was really an interesting way to own up to what I was actually doing,~ um,~ because within a company. I was helping create new markets, whether it was upselling a current client to ask us to do things that were not part of the project, or going out and pursuing an entirely new, problems to solve.
Ozzie: I was, even within companies, helping. craft new opportunities and, ~you know, um,~ new market sectors for them. And for me, it was just, ~you know, ~turning over rocks and trying to figure out, ~you know, ~what are the things that we can do that nobody's asking us to do yet? And how can we communicate that value to somebody,~ um,~ so that they can hire us to do that.
Ozzie: And ~so, you know, ~being able to talk about ~what's the ~what's the return on investment or what's the value of sustainability to X, Y, or Z? ~Um, ~those are the things that,~ um,~ that really shaped how I navigated ~work,~ finding work and so,~ so, um. ~Now, ~sort of ~as a freelance,~ um,~ it's feels like it, it just really allows me to open up into helping people[00:15:00] think through the steps to accomplish something that they haven't really done before, and they haven't figured out how to do it.
Ozzie: ~I get clients now that are, you know, asking what ~I want to. Create a,~ uh,~ net zero,~ um,~ plan ~for, ~for my future company, you know, I want to be zero carbon within 15 years.~ you know, Um, ~how do I do that? Where do I begin? And so taking that general, very loose value,~ it's,~ it's hardly an idea yet. It's ~sort of ~this value,~ uh,~ that they want to apply and then beginning,~ um,~ to understand, ~you know, ~where are you today?
Ozzie: What steps do you need to take? ~In, ~in first phase to set yourself up to know how to monitor your progress. ~Um, ~and then how do you begin to make that progress in a strategic way? Those are the kind of things that architecture taught me how to do very well. ~Um, you know, ~facilitating a lot of different disciplines has to facilitating a lot of different stakeholders, a lot of different perspectives.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~and then. ~Sort of ~letting everybody see what everyone else is thinking [00:16:00] and figuring out how to put all these different talents together and having them all flying in the same direction.
Silvia: Yeah, that's very cool. ~Like, ~I see it two ways because,~ um,~ you positioning yourself to your clients that is ~kind of ~creating,~ um,~ like turning an idea from,~ like,~ like, you have to communicate an idea and kind of create something with them in ~the, ~the work that you'll be doing with them. But then also the project itself is another problem solving exercise of their problems.
Silvia: So it's ~kind of, ~that's really cool because The skills you've learned as an architect are both creating a need and solving the problem that the need is, which I think is ~kind of ~fun. ~Um, ~
Ozzie: yeah, no, I think you hit on something interesting. ~It's a, ~I never really saw it as creating a need as much as putting attention on something that hasn't been yet addressed. ~Um, ~and ~like, you know, I, ~I grew up. I grew up in the edge of Los Angeles County, and I was literally on the other side of the tracks of our community, surrounded by industrial [00:17:00] warehouses and scrap metal yards and a recycling center.
Ozzie: So from a very young age, this concept of one person's trash is another person's treasure really came home to roost in my neighborhood because we were surrounded by other people's trash. And I felt like I was surrounded by treasure that else was paying attention to.~ You know, ~I, I began my journey seeing waste as just an unfinished problem.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~when I was a kid, because of this recycling center, I had to pass every day on my way home from the park. So it was all too easy for me to make money for chocolates and eventually a skateboard just by stopping by the trash cans on my way home from the park and picking up cans and bottles. And then dropping them off at the recycling center.
Ozzie: So it felt like, ~you know, ~my bank account was all this piles of metal and glass ~that were, ~that were surrounding me. I just had to go into an alley, grab some cardboard and go take it to the recycling center. And nowadays, I feel like,~ um, the,~ this [00:18:00] concept ~of, ~of waste. Affords us a tremendous opportunities to just figure out how to finish that thought, ~you know, ~somebody used something and then they're done using it and then they don't need it anymore.
Ozzie: They don't know what to do with it. So it's called waste yet. There's still materials there. It's biomass or it's some technical nutrients that can get plugged back ~into the ~into the system. And like that's essentially what I do in my job to this day. And whether it's. material waste, or it's,~ um,~ what I would call human potential.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~those are the things that I'm trying to figure out. Where are we not optimizing? Where is the thought not completed? ~Um, ~and it's not so much, I don't feel like I'm ~kind of ~inventing work for people to do. I'm letting them know, you're leaving some value on the table. In these areas, and you can figure out how to reincorporate that and potentially how to bring value back to yourself.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~and nowadays, you know,~ you know, ~in this, in some resource strapped areas, it's also how to remove [00:19:00] vulnerabilities,~ um, you know, ~whether it's a workforce shortage, or there's a precious metal that is key ~to your ~to your hardware. ~Um, ~and,~ It's, it's, ~it's getting consumed, it's getting tossed away, and we don't know how to recapture it.
Ozzie: Those are the things that helped me, what we call today, close the loop ~on, ~on ~these, ~those resource chains. And I feel like it's something we've always needed to figure out. ~It just didn't. ~We had the luxury to not have to deal with it because we felt like there was abundance ~on the ~on the supply side. ~Um, ~and I feel like the future is won by people that can complete that thought first.
Ozzie: and figure out how to turn what others have considered waste back into value. ~Um, so, you know, I knew, ~I knew from environmental science, this concept of waste is more of an idea. ~Um, ~there's no such thing as waste in nature. We're a contained system, and human beings just called waste what they couldn't figure out what to do with.
Ozzie: And now I help people figure out what to do with it.
Silvia: that's a really beautiful way of thinking about it that,~ um,~ [00:20:00] the potential that they have that they can use. It's ~kind of like, ~there's no big change. Like ~you, you, ~you have the ability to do it and ~kind of ~just ~like, ~let's look at it and make it more thoughtful about all of the parts of the process.
Ozzie: Yeah. And ~whoever, ~whoever figures it out first is positioning themselves ~to, ~to win. And, ~you know, ~and ~when, ~when I was working in the industrial manufacturing side, it really helped me see the power of this idea at scale,~ um,~ because we had clients that,~ um,~ were given a mandate, ~you know, ~some CEO says we need to invest in green infrastructure.
Ozzie: And then a bunch of engineers are handed this mandate, but ~they don't,~ they begin with saying, well,~ well, what, ~what the heck is green infrastructure? And, ~um. It's, uh,~ being able to peel the onion back and say, ~you know, nobody's really,~ there's no common definition within your company for this, but your competitors are trying to figure this out too.
Ozzie: And the first people ~to, ~to start addressing this are at a competitive advantage. ~Um, ~and so without having to [00:21:00] feel like I'm putting out my personal agenda. or trying to get people to put my values into their operation. ~Um, ~I had the luxury to just ~kind of ~help them see,~ uh,~ what others were doing or what their leadership was asking for and then give them the opportunity to, ~you know, ~put their nose down and run in that direction.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~and if they ever weren't invested in that process,~ um,~ I didn't lose sleep over not being able to convince them to go green or, for example,~ um,~ at first in my career. Yeah, that was a struggle. I felt like I was selling these values to our developers, ~you know, like, you know, ~you know, you got to do this and it's going to help give you more dollars per square foot and,~ um,~ the market values it.
Ozzie: And I ~kind of ~came up with all these arguments to try to convince them. To go green. ~Um, as I, as the, ~as the conversation evolved in society, as my career evolved,~ um,~ I ~sort of ~took the approach of,~ well, you know, ~there's always going to be those 20 percent early adopters. And if I could get in a position where I could help them run as [00:22:00] fast and as far as they are willing to go,~ um,~ we're going to prove a lot of concepts to a lot of people.
Ozzie: And, ~you know, ~you know, it's part of why I moved to Portland, Oregon. ~Um, ~I thought this is a place where I don't have to sell it as much and we can just go. ~Uh, ~and it's part of what put me into a leadership position. When I got involved in the industrial side,~ um,~ I was unafraid to go to any industry sector and just ~kind of.~
Ozzie: Have a conversation. It wasn't my agenda. It was ~what are you, ~what are you doing or not doing ~that you have ~that you haven't thought of ~that ~that can bring you value?
Silvia: So you said you're looking for those,~ uh,~ 20 percent early adopters, so you're trying to find the right fit in your clients that,~ like, um, ~are on board already. You said you don't have to sell them. What kind of things do you see that will, let you know that, ~you know, ~this is a company that,~ like,~ will,~ um,~ you know, ~you, ~That gets it.
Strategic approach for Early Adopters
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Ozzie: Sure. ~Um, you know, there's, there's, ~there's a lot of resources out there that can help point me to the right people,~ um,~ because I'm a freelance and it's just me at this point. ~Um, ~I rely a lot on referrals and,~ um,~ sort of personal connections. ~Uh, ~and [00:23:00] I let that organically so far. It's kept me busy enough.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~but when I go into marketing mode, there's, I like to look at companies ~that are, ~that are talking a big game and really saying things that are bold ~and, ~and big,~ um,~ And are unafraid to declare, ~you know, ~throw the gauntlet down and say,~ I,~ I want to achieve this goal and I go into their annual reporting,~ um,~ because a lot of this stuff has to be public information now and just see how are they making progress in that big, bold idea that they put out there,~ um,~ finding,~ uh,~ companies that have.
Ozzie: From their leadership, set out this large visionary goal. Today is one of my best sort of tips that I can start chasing. ~It's a, ~it's a thread that I can start pulling on to find out who are the people involved in making that goal come to life. ~Um, ~how are they. Currently monitoring and measuring that goal.
Ozzie: ~Uh, ~and,~ um, what are they, what are they, um,~ how are they positioning themselves against other [00:24:00] people trying to achieve that same goal? ~Um, so, you know, ~carbon reporting is something that's. That's got some public information requirements. ~Um, ~there is,~ uh,~ I guess the general term now is ESG, environmental and social governance.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~I've seen it evolve from corporate responsibility reports, environmental responsibility reports, and now it's the ESG kind of combines environmental and social. And a lot of those reports will produce information to track progress towards a goal, and, ~you know, ~they'll include all of their water footprint, their carbon footprint,~ um,~ energy consumption,~ um,~ solid waste management, and then they'll include a lot of the social elements.
Ozzie: And whenever I see gaps, or I see that ~there's, ~there's metrics that are not, ~um. are not ~tracking towards meeting that goal in the timeline that they've set. ~Um, ~that to me provides a great opportunity to ~sort of ~present a conversation. And through curiosity,~ um,~ and just wanting to learn what are you doing, [00:25:00] what's working,~ uh,~ what's not working,~ um,~ I find myself ~in ~In conversations, inevitably, where,~ um,~ I'm seeing folks that might have a position and they are,~ um,~ trying to figure out how to take that position and make it more impactful within their organizations, I help to align myself with them and.
Ozzie: Help them figure out how to make the case to their leadership about, ~you know, ~where they need more support or more attention to be able to address or move the needle on some of those initiatives that they have.
Silvia: And that's really awesome because I've heard many times that you should treat your career like a design problem, but In the same way, you should treat all problems like design problems in a way like it's because sometimes when I'm talking to other people just about anything and it's ~like, ~oh, we can't do that because of this and that and it's ~like, ~no, it's not why you can't do that.
Silvia: Those are just things you have to figure out to solve your problem. ~So it's like, ~I liked how you said you're like, [00:26:00] you're looking through everything. How are they approaching their goals? How are they getting where they want? How are they figuring things out? ~Right? ~So it's like how. Good, are they at,~ like, uh, ~problem solving as well, in a way?
Strategic Ways to Reach Client's Expectation
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Ozzie: ~Yeah, ~yeah. And, ~you know, ~in the course of my career, yes, I saw ~this, ~this dawn of the role called Chief Sustainability Officer. ~Um, ~now we have,~ um,~ Chief Diversity Officer or Chief Equity Officer. ~Um, ~these are roles that are not only new,~ um,~ but ~the, ~the organizations are ~It's~ all over the map with how those roles are ~sort of ~placed inside of an organization, how they're resourced, and the individuals filling those roles tend to come from,~ like,~ either they've been working for that organization a long time, so they have deep institutional knowledge, and they happen to have this interest,~ like, you know, ~I'm interested in sustainability, or I'm interested in equity, and they raise their hand to form a committee.
Ozzie: And so they start getting this role. Or ~there's, ~they bring someone in brand new that might have just gotten, you know,~ you know, ~there's now, gosh, ~when I, ~when I ~finished, I graduated, I ~[00:27:00] graduated in my first class,~ uh, like, uh, ~the first year that we had an accredited program for environmental science and at that, I'm dating myself a little bit, but.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~at that time,~ um,~ there were very few options as far as degrees and in sustainability or, ~you know, ~environmental policy. And now ~I'm, ~I'm somewhat jealous at all of the options that schools offer. ~Um, ~to really dig into,~ um, a, ~a piece of the environmental conversation and the same thing with equity. ~Um, there's this, there's growing, um, uh, ~there's a growing set of options to really start looking at this from an academic perspective.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~so I'm seeing the other class of individuals that I try to help are those that have zero institutional knowledge. They might be. Brand new to their industry sector, but ~they have a lot,~ they have the latest knowledge on sustainability policy or, ~you know, ~equity policies. ~Um, ~and those folks ~are, are, ~are full of enthusiasm and sometimes are bumping up against,~ um,~ limitations within their role because, ~you know, ~they [00:28:00] haven't really given them large budgets.
Ozzie: They don't have staff and,~ um,~ just helping them navigate their own corporate structures and advocate for their role. ~Um, ~that becomes ~a, that's~ another sort of problem that set that I like to help solve. ~Um, ~and depending on which one of those two sort of camps ~I'm, ~I'm meeting,~ um, the, ~the. Attack,~ the,~ the pursuit strategy,~ um,~ starts to look very different.
Ozzie: In some cases, I'm helping people navigate corporate structures and figure out, you know,~ you know, who with~ how to create that alignment within the organization, ~who to, um,~ who to align with in organizations and how to, ~ how to, ~package ~their, ~their concepts to them so that they can start,~ um,~ getting, how More ambassadors for the work within the organization, or I'm helping people understand the subject matter a little bit better, ~you know, ~helping them understand.
Ozzie: ~Well, ~what are the policies around equity strategies? How do they relate back to? ~Um, ~managing risk or liability ~on your ~on your capital [00:29:00] improvement projects,~ um,~ or,~ um,~ how can you engage with your suppliers, your long term vendors, for them to know that you have some environmental preferable requirements coming, and they need to make sure that they have a response ready for you when that time comes.
Ozzie: And so.~ so. you know, ~there's those two pathways that I've been working through to help people at the end of the day, become more impactful in the roles that they have. And, ~you know, I, ~I try to find business in the process for myself.
Silvia: Is there something that usually helps those,~ um,~ in either situation you mentioned,~ uh,~ be successful? ~Like, ~is it that they connect with people, or ~like, ~they get enough people on board, or ~like, ~there's a clear bottom line, or something like that? ~Like, ~is there something you're trying to connect them to?
Ozzie: Yeah, absolutely. And ~it's, ~it's always case specific. ~Um, ~and at the end of the day, what I try to do is, Work, what I call work with the whole human,~ um,~ change [00:30:00] is a grueling journey and trying to, ~you know, ~push the rock up the hill every day. ~Um, ~can get very exhausting and there's a lot of folks that, ~you know, ~have a really cool title and a really cool role inside their organizations, but sometimes don't feel like they're supported ~in, ~in accomplishing the role.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~they're not empowered yet ~to, ~to really get, The initiatives off the ground, or they're sort of left~ sort of ~high and dry when it comes time to get people to actually implement the change. ~Um, ~and so there's a lot of ~sort of ~cheerleading that has to occur and for me,~ I,~ I remember my journey in change making and I realized that, ~you know, ~this whole idea of leaving the world better than I found it,~ um,~ only feels good to me if.
Ozzie: I am coming from a good place. ~So, you know, ~I have to take care of myself. ~I have to live a life. ~I often say I have to live a life that I would consider worthy of sustaining in order for me to have the energy to fill my battery, to [00:31:00] create the change necessary ~to, ~to make that happen. And so when I work with people,~ I, I acknowledge, you know, these, these sort of difficult.~
Ozzie: I acknowledge the exhausting nature of change and I try to make sure that ~I'm, ~I'm not just talking to their role. I'm talking to who they are and~ what,~ why they took the role to begin with. And. I try to make sure that I understand what fills their battery enough so that,~ um, they're, ~they're being seen as a full self.
Ozzie: ~You know, I'm, ~I'm, again, I'm not just here ~to, ~to help you do a good job. I'm here to help you get. What you want out of this role. ~Um, ~and then, of course, there's always ~the, um,~ the cheerleading and ~the, the, ~the sending the kudos and the recognition,~ um,~ because it is change is difficult. And,~ um,~ sometimes, ~uh.~
Ozzie: ~You know, ~just ~like, you know, ~with architecture, it takes so long from when you think of something to when you finally see it up and running ~and, and, ~and it takes even longer after it's up and running to really see, ~did my, ~did my concept work? ~Like, ~[00:32:00] if I wanted to create, activate a space, a public space, did it activate?
Ozzie: And the fascinating thing to me. becomes ~when, ~when people start using spaces in a way that you didn't even foresee, ~you know, it might, yeah, like, I,~ I didn't ever think that ~this is what~ this is the activity that this place would be accommodating or occurring. And those are cool learning lessons,~ um,~ in a similar way, when it's not a built space.
Ozzie: I like to ~kind of ~see when an idea takes life,~ like,~ what sort of energy does it create for those that are implementing it? ~Like, what get, what does, ~what do they get excited about? And,~ um, when~ it's all a learning journey and,~ um, you know, ~we sometimes don't learn something until it's ~sort of ~come to life and we get to test it in the real world.
Ozzie: ~Uh, ~and it's ~been, it's~ interesting to see, ~You know, ~and a cool idea like, ~you know, ~zero waste. Okay, the day you take the trash cans away from people's desks becomes the day you find out really ~how is this, ~how is this impacting behavior? What are people grumbling about? Or what are they excited about?
Ozzie: And [00:33:00] how do we learn this piece of the puzzle? ~You know, ~the human nature puzzle ~that I, ~that I find most fascinating. It takes me right back to what got me on this journey as an environmental scientist. It taught me to look at human beings. ~You know, ~I would say it this way, as a species, ~you know, ~as a biological species and much like other biological species, we're wired in such a way that ~we have,~ we gravitate towards things, ~you know, like, ~fear is a real thing and ~it's a, ~it's a survival mechanism and it's also something that is triggered when you change somebody's environment, when you move the trash can,~ um,~ so understanding us as a biological species,~ um,~ has been something that helps me ~sort of ~look at ~when implementation, uh,~ when we evaluate implementation success, but it's also what it helps, ~what helps~ me when I'm, ~you know, ~engaging with those chief sustainability officers or chief equity officers,~ um,~ as human beings,~ um, you know, what, ~what motivates us.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~I think at the end of the day, you know, we're.~ you know, We're, ~I'd say we're just people,~ um,~ but I'd say, ~you know, we're, ~we're a [00:34:00] biological species. We want to be loved. We want to survive. And,~ um,~ we're just trying to navigate a world. That's constantly changing. ~Um, ~the context of it changes and we have tremendous tools at our disposal in modern society that haven't really been around very long.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~so how,~ how, ~are we learning from those tools about ourselves and what. about those tools is worth sustaining? That's ~kind of ~how I come from.
Silvia: Yeah, I love how you keep connecting it back to,~ um,~ why you got started in all of this in the first place, and then always relating it back to the person,~ the,~ the entire picture of the human and what they're about. ~How does, uh,~ you mentioned many times that,~ uh,~ you're often in a new place because when you're,~ uh,~ doing like at that point in your career, someone might not have done it already.
Silvia: So how do you navigate continually being in a new space without ~like ~any precedence, like figuring out what you want to do, what you're going to [00:35:00] do?
Ozzie: ~Uh, ~the short answer is, I don't know. And that's,~ um, you know, ~that's where the creativity comes in. ~There's, there's always something,~ there's always ~some~ new problem to solve. And sometimes the problem to solve is building a better mousetrap. We have things that ~may~ already exist, but there might be ~a, ~a better way for it to.
Ozzie: occur. ~Um, and this is where, like, you know, um, ~coffee is a great example. ~You know, ~it's been around a long time. I don't see anyone saying it should go away. However,~ um,~ there's so much room for improvement in. In that supply chain from how it's cultivated, where it's cultivated, who is involved in the cultivation process,~ um,~ the skills, the craftsmanship skills that are necessary,~ um,~ at all steps in that.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~and how do we maintain ~the, ~the sort of the old world crafts ~that are, ~that are hard to mechanize? And how do we improve ~the, ~the materials that the machines are made out of? ~Um, ~so that. They're [00:36:00] either more recyclable, less toxic,~ um,~ or not having to come from war and torn regions. ~Um, ~and ~down to, you know, like, in,~ in buildings, we've at some point talked about deconstruct ability as a way to design.
Ozzie: And if you do that, then ~when you're, ~when it comes time to demolish,~ or,~ or you want to modify that structure for a new use,~ um, you,~ if you design it for deconstruct ability, you're going to. give it that much more flexibility in its next life. In a similar way, I feel like we have so many places to improve in, in all steps of all of these things that come to fruition.
Ozzie: And I feel like I don't even know how to be bored. ~Um, ~and ~there's. ~I feel like everything I look at affords an opportunity for reducing waste, improving the environmental performance of the supply chain,~ um, and, ~and then asking the question, what's the human element of this? And,~ uh, you know, are, ~are we sourcing it from a far away place?
Ozzie: And is that far away place,~ Um,~ is it coming from a community that's taken care of? ~Um, ~how [00:37:00] is that community doing? Or is it being sourced from my own backyard in my community? And how is that community dealing with it? are they creating wealth or are they just polluting,~ um, the, ~the effluent coming off their site?
Ozzie: ~Um, so, ~I feel like ~just when ~just when we've ~kind of ~kind of solved the problem, we might have also created another one that didn't exist before. So this is the best place where I could say. We're constantly evolving. ~Um, ~I see evolution not so much as a constant state of improvement as much as a constant state of adaptation and learning.
Ozzie: And that's, I don't think that we're going to stop doing that because this is a dynamic system.
Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um, ~what are you looking forward to in the future or like for yourself, ~you know, ~like what's,~ um,~ coming up next or what are you excited about?
Future Projects Looking Forward to
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Ozzie: Wow. ~Um, ~so ~this concept of creativity is, is starting to find for many, ~for many reasons in my personal journey, this concept of creativity is starting to find it. a nice little comfortable [00:38:00] nest at the center ~of, ~of my work. ~Um, I find~ one of the ways I fill my battery is with art ~and, ~and creative expression.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~and so what I used to call a selfish hobby of occasionally indulging myself in Getting into a music project or a theater project or some sort of writing exercise,~ um,~ I now find it, I always, ~you know, I, ~I used to do things like improv or theater as a way to keep my public speaking skills sharp and keep myself from getting too dry when I'm doing all the technical AIA course material, ~you know, um, ~because I feel like an idea is only as powerful as your ability to actually hand it to somebody else.
Ozzie: ~You know, you could, ~you could be a genius, but if you don't know how to communicate that idea, ~it doesn't, it doesn't give,~ you can't give it the life that it deserves. ~So, ~creativity has always been an outlet for me, but now I find that It's coming into the center place of how I work and how I ~incorporate, uh, I~ could incorporate it more into my process ~and, ~[00:39:00] and that's something I'm really working to do more of.
Ozzie: ~Um, so, you know, ~years back,~ I,~ I think I would have been less prone to play music during my breaks when I'm facilitating, ~you know, ~some. integrated project delivery. And now it's very much a conscious thing of,~ um,~ like the music I play in the room before the session starts. If we put on a break, I've already got music that I know I want to have.
Ozzie: During lunchtime, I'm going to either play it, or ~Um, ~images on the screen, ~you know, ~if instead of just turning off the slides and leaving a blank wall ~or, ~or leaving the last slide up,~ um,~ I might have some rolling slides of,~ uh,~ of nature scenes or a gurgling fountain ~and, ~and ~it's, ~it's more conscious now of an exercise for me.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ yeah, I think ~that that, ~that's the piece I'm looking forward to more is figuring out better and more ways to weave that creativity element into the work. ~Um, you know, I, I, it's,~ it's feeling more like play and less like work when I do this [00:40:00] stuff and I try to cultivate that kind of,~ um,~ energy ~in, ~in.
Ozzie: Strategic planning exercises, ~you know, ~and facilitating new problem solving ~with, ~with stakeholders. ~Um, I, ~I try to bring that element into it. ~Um, so, you know, ~my, I feel like it's helping change my icebreakers,~ my,~ my breaks and,~ um,~ I'm having fun with it. And, ~um. ~I feel like ~that's, ~that's a good, that's a step in the right direction, and maybe if I'm having fun with it, maybe people will enjoy that work and that process a little bit more, and in the best case scenario, we ~sort of ~pull away our biases and our fears,~ um,~ because we're a ~You know, ~we might have people more willing to speak up on an idea that they might feel like,~ well, that's not ~that's not my wheelhouse, or that's not my discipline.
Ozzie: Maybe I should listen more than speak, but giving people the space ~to ~to play to fail or to come up with a crummy idea. Let's I like to start with, ~like. You know, ~You know, let's come up with some bad ideas and then understand why they're bad. ~Um, ~sometimes that's a really good mechanism to ~sort of ~understand the [00:41:00] problem a little bit better.
Ozzie: ~Um, and, ~and if you ~sort of ~take the reins away from the expectation that, ~you know, you're, ~you're a smarty pants PhD, so everything you say has got to be. ~You know, ~pontificated wisdom and just say, no,~ I,~ I need you to come up with something like the opposite. ~Um, if, if you, ~if you just had you and your kid in the garage to build it,~ um, you know, what, ~what would you do?
Ozzie: Or what do you think your kid would say about that? Or how do you explain this to grandma are all sort of random ways to throw a curveball at the conversation and ~sort of ~remind us that, hey, ~you know, ~if we take ourselves too seriously, we might not. be able to discover the things that we need to discover,~ um, or, ~or, ~you know, ~unlock in this process.
Ozzie: So ~I'm, ~I'm working more about weaving myself into that. ~Um, ~and ~I'm, ~I'm really excited to do that. And I'm really excited to. expand ~my my ~my reach once again,~ um,~ beyond the northwest. ~I've, uh,~ I've worked a lot trying to stay close to home. ~Um, ~even though sometimes my jobs are ~sort of ~far away from where I sit,~ uh, I've, uh.~
Ozzie: ~I've tried to,~ I've tried to contain [00:42:00] myself to a region because I was raising kids. Now that they're grown up and they've moved out, they're off in college, I'm very proud of what they're doing now with their lives. I feel like ~the, ~the potential for me to go farther ~and, ~and not have to come home right away has just brought a new possibility for me that,~ um,~ I'm really excited about.
Ozzie: So I'm, yeah, I'm Portland, Oregon. It feels like a kind of a sleepy little corner of the country. ~There's not a,~ it's three hours to the next city, six hours to the next city to the south. And ~it's, uh,~ it's nice. I love it here. ~Um, ~but I also feel quite distanced, ~you know, ~physically, geographically ~from, ~from a lot of, The sort of the energy of conversations.
Ozzie: It's such a different feeling to be sitting in Portland, Oregon, doing work versus, ~you know, ~the days I was doing architecture in Los Angeles, I felt like I was in a hotspot of amazing talent and amazing energy of activity and especially now working from home in Portland, Oregon, I feel like I'm often some nest [00:43:00] in the forest, ~you know, sort of ~on my own connecting through cameras and microphones.
Ozzie: I want to get out there and see. ~Uh, ~what people are up to. I want to look at what's sort of on the edge of innovation~ sort of ~beyond the U. S. right now. ~Um, ~and so I'm really excited for to continue my learning journey. That way.
Silvia: All of that sounds so very cool. ~Um, ~I loved how you connected the part where you were like, you're trying to put more creativity into your sessions and how you're like playing music and like putting on more slides. It feels like along the top, the way that you've spoke the entire,~ um,~ time about,~ like,~ just making everything more human and,~ like,~ even more personal, more connected.
Silvia: I really appreciate that because I think architecture can get a little stuffy sometimes, I'm sure,~ like,~ corporate, corporations, and,~ like,~ yeah, people,~ like,~ put up a front of what they feel like they should be, but then you never get to connect to who they are, like how the cool person that they are inside.
Ozzie: ~You know, ~you just helped me stumble into something. I didn't realize [00:44:00] your last question and what you just said makes me realize when I started my career as I started this presentation or ~this, ~this conversation,~ um, uh, ~I set out to help make the world a better place. Nowadays, especially in this topsy turvy world we're in, ~you know, ~crazy stuff happening,~ major,~ major change.
Ozzie: ~The, the, yeah, ~the winds of change are upon us. ~Um, ~and there's so much uncertainty. ~Uh, ~I could feel the uncertainty factor,~ um,~ about the future, ~you know, ~throughout society. ~I don't often,~ I don't think of it the same way as I used to. I don't think that I'm setting out to make the world a better place. It's really come back to the human experience, and I feel like what I'm really doing now is I'm trying to make this lifetime and the human experience a fuller, richer experience.
Ozzie: And, ~you know, ~we, modern society has brought us a lot of great things,~ um,~ but it's also redefined our human experience, ~you know, I mean, I don't, I don't, ~I don't [00:45:00] need to explain to you how cell phones have changed how we interact as humans. ~Um, so, ~to me, recognizing us as a biological species makes me feel like, okay, so ~what, ~what do we do in this modern society to help make the human experience the richest, the fullest, the most complete as possible?
Ozzie: It doesn't mean everything is peaches and cream,~ um, but it, ~but it does mean that ~we, ~we embrace. ~All of the, ~all of the different fields that a human experience includes and much like architecture taught me to understand that, that light and shadow are interdependent and they create beauty and without one, the other one sort of
Ozzie: Much like that has taught me ~in, ~in the sort of the visual expression of architecture. I also think of the feelings now,~ um,~ the feelings and the lived experiences that we get and it's everything from when you enter a space,~ um,~ to. When [00:46:00] you interact ~in a, in a, um,~ in a group setting in your company, you know,~ you know, ~from the company culture to the architecture of the building and ~the, ~the procession experience from the garage or the bus stop to the entry of the door,~ um, I, ~I really just want to have a great human experience.
Ozzie: And so I think of it that way ~in,~ in how I approach walking around and trying to find things to change and improve, as it were.
Silvia: And I think the beautiful part is the more that we are ourselves ~in every,~ as much as we can, like we are acting upon all of our different passions and abilities in more places of our life with more people, the more other people will as well. So I think that's like partly, ~you know, ~in the tangents world where we want you to pursue careers that are true to yourselves, but also like in everything that you do, ~like~ to not be limited by wherever you are.
Ozzie: That's right. Yeah. And, ~you know, ~working for myself now gives me the luxury to, I don't need to have a job [00:47:00] description or a title. It's just me. And, for folks, especially folks outside of architecture, ~um. You know, ~my sort of walking around way to describe what I do for a living is,~ well, I help, I, I, ~I help organizations and individuals become the fullest version of themselves by helping them address.
Ozzie: Problems and think through problems that they're struggling with and that's very vague in general, but, ~you know, ~knowing folks within the architecture,~ um,~ I think ~it's, ~it's easy for me to relate to the details of what that means on the ground. ~You know, ~it really is,~ um,~ this whole strategic planning and facilitation at the end of the day, it's understanding.
Ozzie: What makes you tick, what you're trying to accomplish, and let's now work through that process. And yeah,~ uh, it's, ~it's lets me,~ um,~ not have to stick to a certain industry or a certain problem type. I just like to help people think through and solve problems and then figure out how to implement them. And ~when I, ~being able to work for myself lets me.
Ozzie: ~Um, ~[00:48:00] sometimes I am like proactively chasing a client because I really like who they are or what they're about. And I want to see them succeed. ~Um, ~and sometimes it's the problem that they're working on that gets me excited. And I go, okay, how do we bring your full self into that problem? ~Um, ~but,~ uh, it, ~it's the downside of consulting in that I don't, ~I'm not, ~I'm not selling hot dogs, ~you know, ~it's not just like a clean, Expression of well, what do you do?
Ozzie: Oh, I sell hot dogs and you get to put mustard on it or not. ~Um, ~consulting is this nebulous ~like, ~no, but really, what do you do? ~You know, ~my kids still think he, he writes emails and talks on the phone. That's what he does. ~Um, ~but. ~Uh, ~for me, it's really,~ um,~ helping people become the thing ~that they, ~that they've set out to be in, in that, in the professional setting, but to bring the full human into it.
Ozzie: ~Uh, ~and ~I, ~I can only do that if I'm ~sort of ~navigating the world. in my full self. And,~ um,~ sometimes it's because I was playing guitar with somebody that I find out that they're interested in this [00:49:00] technology that they're trying to figure out how to create or make more,~ um,~ environmentally responsible. So I feel like, I don't know, I feel like just being outside, living out loud, being my ~full self, uh,~ full human self is the best version I can describe as my marketing strategy.
Ozzie: And. I'm sharing what I know and being willing to learn is how I end up finding the next opportunity.
Silvia: Yeah, very cool. ~Um, uh, ~we'll have your information in the show notes, but if anyone wants to get in touch with you,~ um, do you have any more, uh, like, yeah,~ how should they get in touch with you?
Ozzie: Oh,~ well,~ I guess from since you guys have, ~you know, ~a broad audience of people that have never met me. ~Um, ~I think LinkedIn is a good place. ~Uh, ~Osvaldo Ossie Gonzalez,~ um,~ is the LinkedIn and ~I,~ if you don't already have it,~ I,~ I can provide you the link. ~Um, ~that's a good place to find me. ~Uh, Um, ~I've got a website, P3Associates.
Ozzie: com, and I could give you that link as well. Those are two great places to start.
Silvia: Okay, great.
Ozzie: And if you're in Portland, Oregon, I'm at the Trio Club on [00:50:00] Tuesdays playing,~ uh,~ leading open mics and playing music.
Silvia: Oh, very awesome. I hope people stop by. ~Um, ~thank you so much for this lovely conversation. It was really nice just to connect and hear everything.
Ozzie: Thank you, Sylvia. It's great to take the opportunity and thanks for having me on your podcast.
Silvia: ~Wonderful. Have a good day. Uh, I'll email you. Uh, we will probably be, uh, dropping this episode in about a month or so.~
Ozzie: ~Cool. Very cool. I look forward to it.~
Silvia: ~Awesome. Okay. Thanks.~
Ozzie: ~Yeah. Feel free to reach out if you have any follow ups.~
Silvia: ~Okay. Sounds good.~
Ozzie: ~Take care.~
Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.
Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.
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Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then