Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Join us on our quest for the extraordinary!
Sam McKee (@polymath_sam) has 9 university qualifications across 4 subjects including doctorates in history and philosophy of science and molecular biology. He researches both at two British universities and contributes to both space science and cancer research. Meet fellow polymaths and discipline leaders working on the frontiers of research from all over the world. Be inspired to pursue knowledge and drive the world forwards.
Watch and share interviews with professors, lecturers, researchers, engineers, scientists and astronauts, right here! We talk to the most extraordinary people working on the frontiers for humanity, driving research forwards and changing the world that we live in. We dive deep with thinkers, academics and true icons - many of whom you won't yet have heard of.
Listen to us here and on podcast whilst you drive, exercise, do chores, and be inspired to pursue extraordinary in your own life.
www.sam-mckee.co.uk
Hello and welcome to the Polymath World channel and I'm so excited today because we're
talking to another astronaut and I love talking to astronauts as you know.
And we got a great one today and we're gonna dig into a lot of science and beautiful stuff
in his career.
It's ISS commander Dr.
Steve Swanson.
Thanks so much for joining me today, Steve.
It's wonderful to see you again.
It's a pleasure, Sam.
Great to be here.
So I love starting with astronauts on when space first came into your life.
Uh was there a point in your childhood where you really knew that being an astronaut was
something you wanted to be?
I would say not being an astronaut, but space came into my life through sci science
fiction.
You know, I ended up uh watching reruns of the original Star Trek series.
And that's when I got hooked on the whole thing.
just but I didn't think about me doing it until I was like twenty five.
So it was a big change for that.
But uh I've been hooked on, you know, science fiction and space ever since I was young.
Really?
Twenty five.
That's um that's really amazing.
So w do you have any clear, distinctive space memories that were a big influence on you?
man.
Um well for sure the uh first uh shuttle mission that was I was in uh college at that
time.
And that uh definitely was uh I watched the whole mission kind of idea and really got
caught up in that one.
And that started me with uh you know, that was a really unique uh I don't know, it's me
experience to see that all happen.
'cause I have to admit when I was younger I didn't really even pay much attention to
Apollo.
I knew what was going on, but I was the type of kid that was always outside running
around.
And so I was never much for watching stuff on T V that especially like news or anything
like that.
I was uh I was wasn't one
doing that.
So I didn't really pay much attention to it until uh a shuttle's era.
What part of the country did you grow up in?
In Colorado mostly.
And so and I lived grew up in the mountains of Colorado, so I was always outdoors.
And that's what I like doing.
I still like doing it.
That's why my retirement is gonna be going back and and living outdoors again.
So
Yeah, that theme runs constantly through uh your your career and your journey looking at
it.
Another thing that really runs through is science and engineering.
Um w where you were a very sciencey engineering kid.
Yeah, I was a nerd.
yep.
Uh and I really didn't you know, I didn't realize it for sure until you get like to the
high school age for us and then I I excelled and enjoyed the math and science classes.
And so that was always you know, it's different than most other students maybe.
And so I realized that that's kinda where my path was gonna lead me.
And so and but I didn't really think about too much until that time.
Mm.
Did you have any big role models for science and engineering?
Oh man, that's a good question.
I got my dad started off as an engineer, so he definitely he was always kind of pushing
that a little bit, ended up going into management later in in life.
But he did like engineering and that aspect of it and all that guess I I think uh from his
you know, just the way he talked about things, uh his life and what he liked to do, I
could tell he was into that asshole also.
Yeah.
Mm.
So you went to you stayed in state, you went to Colorado Boulder for your your Bachelor of
Science in Engineering Physics.
Um what's engineering physics specifically?
Is it exactly as it sounds, just sort of the fusion of the two?
Yeah, it's mostly physics with electives and engineering.
And so and it was I wasn't really uh again, uh I didn't have a lot of forethought or
direction in this time of my life.
And so I knew I wanted uh an engineering kind of uh degree and I didn't know exactly
though what engineering degree I want and in
Back then I didn't really do much research.
Uh you know, eighteen I was not that good at, you know, uh thinking things through, being
thoughtful about all my different options and and being, I guess, more logical about it.
I just kind of am like, I wanna head down that path.
And so I ah
Went to University of Colorado just 'cause it was the easiest school, you know, home home,
you know, near my home kind of stuff.
And uh and picked uh engineering, but again they didn't even have a major until uh was
starting my sophomore year.
And
for that though I didn't uh know which one to go with and started talking to people and
and I didn't know uh how difficult it was to get into the actual majors and s you know,
even in the College of Engineering.
I hadn't done that yet.
And so uh I didn't talk to a counselor, which I should have done, but I did talk to a
friend of a friend who was an engineer and I said, Oh, go for engineering physics.
It's a difficult degree.
Uh not many students since you're guaranteed to get into it.
And uh and so I said, I'll try that then.
I didn't even know what it was either.
And so
and I knew I liked physics, but I didn't know exactly, you know, the details of it.
And and so I went down that path.
And and did get in and it and after about well about probably starting maybe like halfway
through my junior year, I realized maybe this wasn't the best one for me.
I'm more of a maybe say a mechanical engineer or or something else, a different, you know,
something a little bit different uh than that.
We started getting to more theoretical physics and I realized that that's cool stuff, but
it's not as hands on as I would like to have for me.
And so I s I thought about changing and then I realized or I actually talked to a
counselor at that time and they said
if you change, you know it's great, but you're gonna you have to do another year uh of
schoolwork, which makes sense of course.
And so I I was like, no, I don't wanna do that.
I just wanna get out of college.
I wasn't even thinking about like what job I wanted out of college at this time.
I just knew I needed a degree and get out of college.
And so that was my only goal.
And so I said, no, I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna continue on.
And so I did.
Uh however though I was not that motivated uh in that subject matter, I have to admit.
And also there, you know, uh being uh young and not not too mature, I was I easily swayed
by other things with college life at the university.
Uh so uh
I I played sports, I did other things and so uh my grade grade point average was not that
good.
you know, I graduated but it was not um a a good uh you know
I guess a job done on that one.
So uh after I got out of that uh job I realized it was difficult I didn't get a a a job
out of that.
Uh so I say I went and worked construction for a year and that made me rethink about uh
what I wanted to do and r and really pick something that would be uh I think I would enjoy
uh and also more
you know, have better success at.
So it had it took me a while to d to mature enough to get to that point in life.
Hm.
Well, I I mean that story happens to a lot of people, including a lot of astronauts, the
number of them that say that you know, they enjoyed university and then in their final
year they sort of had a panic and went all in and and
I was after, yeah, when I got done.
Yeah.
So but it was actually, you know, as you say it all works out.
I always like to point out that, you know, you don't have to be perfect to achieve your
goals, right?
You just have to uh keep trying and improve yourself.
You know, it's not about, you know, always being perfect.
So don't get too, you upset or anything like that.
And when you do make mistakes, it's gonna happen.
You're gonna make, you know, to do things that are not perfect along your path.
So don't don't take that as a big hit.
You can always recover.
Absolutely.
That's great advice.
I mean, I I was not mature enough for university in my twenties.
I went back in my thirties and
right at the ship there.
so so you end up going I'm curious here, 'cause you you go from working in construction to
down in Florida, you know, more a space country for your masters in computing and computer
science really sort of becomes your education focus after that.
So I'm curious as to how that shift happened and uh about your master's degree at Florida
Atlantic.
Yeah, so um one thing when I was uh working construction, uh I was actually, you know,
living back home in Colorado, and my dad bought uh a a computer.
One of the first it was the I don't know about the Radio Shack Trash 80 we called them,
TRS eighty.
And uh and I started programming.
On my own just picked it up and started doing it.
And what I realized I like is developing algorithms.
Uh and that's what to me was a fun aspect of of that, you know, computing at that time was
you got to develop algorithms to solve problems.
And and I realized I like doing that.
So that's when I tried that that that gave me the idea then of going on and getting a
degree in that.
And it was just starting off pretty much, early years of computer science.
And so uh it was definitely I I found it enjoyable.
you know, but parts of anything are not always great, but doing the algorithm stuff to me
was was
what I liked the most about it.
I liked, you know, you know, basically kind of deriving algorithms and that aspect of it.
And I realized that was a fun thing for me, my brain, it worked out well what I like to
do.
And that's actually getting my first job at NASA was using that aspect.
So it really worked out well for me to go down that path.
And in the course, I don't know if you know, but I did much better as in that master's
program, you know, that and so that helped of
course when they you know for NASA and stuff to see that I improved and I did have the
abilities to to do well in school.
Did you actively seek out a job at NASA at this point or or was it circumstantial?
so when I finished my master's, that's when I the idea was becoming an astronaut kind of
came in.
And so I did apply at that time.
However, I was not close to having a decent application uh for an astronaut.
They did um kind of after a little bit give me I sent back a letter and said, Hey, uh if
you, you know, are still interested, you can come work here and uh and learn more about
NASA and improve yourself and all that kind of stuff.
And so I did take them up on that when they offered that.
And it it's very interesting to me because you you join NASA and y you're working in uh
aspects of shuttle training, but it's nineteen eighty seven, so the Challenger disaster is
is very recent.
Um what
it was definitely pretty recent.
And uh and we we weren't even flying when I come back in, uh we weren't flying the shuttle
just yet.
And so uh it was definitely a a big deal with with the whole program.
But we're still we're training astronauts to fly the shuttle.
And what I my job was on was called the shuttle training aircraft, which is an airborne
simulator of the space shuttle.
And
It was I didn't even know this thing existed, right?
And but it ended up being like the perfect job for me because it was uh
You know, being an airborne simulator is a very complex vehicle.
So they've modified a Gulfstream G2 business jet to be able to have the characteristics of
a shuttle.
uh So during the simulation, you'd have the gear down, the engines reverse thrust.
We move the flaps or are changed out to be flap ron so they can go up and down.
So the idea is you can create less less lift and more drag with them.
And and all with all that together gives you to be able to do the glide slope and
characteristics of a shuttle.
20 degrees glide slope on the shuttle.
And so it was much different in that aspect.
But the way that software worked was you would have uh of course a SNF pilot on the left
side of the cockpit.
They would have a stick in front of them that would be uh not a physical one.
I mean it is a physical one, but it was a fly-by-wire system.
So we would put inputs into the computer.
The computer would calculate then the math model of the shuttle, what it would be doing in
the situation.
And then we had
algorithms that would do the um we call it fla model uh flat geez all of a sudden I forgot
what it we called it.
That's pretty funny.
but it would be a model following is what it was.
And so you would uh make the aircraft do exactly what that model was doing.
And uh and so that was again, it was all algorithms and I really actually got into that
aspect of it.
I didn't know if a flight control systems till I got there.
And so I started really researching that, learning that, learned how this whole thing
worked in great detail.
And to me it was just uh engineering-wise, it was a fantastic job to have because it was
right down my alley of what I like to do.
And I find out I really like flying too, so I actually got worked over uh into the flying
side of it, helping train astronauts doing that aspect.
And so I got, you know, flight experience.
I got operational experience.
I got some great work on, you know, just algorithms and doing all sorts of interesting to
me software.
And, you know, and it was always to me software is just a tool to solve a problem, right?
It's and these problems we're doing like how to make this aircraft fly like the shuttle.
And it was really interesting to just be able to use that and solve these problems with
it.
I don't know.
I really enjoyed that job tremendously.
And so to me it was just uh a perfect fit for what I like to do.
W was that um quite connected to what you ended up doing your PhD on?
Yeah, actually, exactly.
So when I was during that job, uh I got lucky and got a fellowship I applied to with NASA
to take a year off and go get my uh start my PhD.
So I did that and uh got all my coursework done, got the exams out of the way, all that
kind of stuff.
And then uh
and I picked a dissertation project uh that was based off of a aircraft that was flying.
So I made it kind of a semi work uh
you know, a dissertation.
And so that worked out really well.
Uh and it was kind of fun to do at the same time.
Uh so uh and I don't know that that that combination too is really another lucky thing I
got to do.
I was really, you know, fortunate to be able to have that opportunity to to work, you
know, to get a PhD and not have to spend and also work, you know, do it on something at
work and improve the project at work and all that kind of stuff.
So it was definitely to me a lucky experience to get that.
Very fortunate.
Yeah, terrific.
And it sounds like tons of fun.
And and you're d you're doing that in Texas, uh Texas A and And um I I couldn't help but
notice that you you're awarded your PhD the same year that you become an astronaut, uh, in
nineteen ninety eight.
So so it all lined up for you.
all lined up and it was kinda you know, you gotta look at the application process for
being an astronaut.
Uh you're competing against many different people.
And so you have to kinda get these different things kinda checked off on the box to be,
you know, m into that group.
put it that way.
And and one of the things that I knew pretty much to get there, I need to have a PhD.
And so I pretty much that was the last thing to get checked off on all the things that I
needed, I think, to help make it along the way.
There's still, you know, it's still a little bit of luck at the end because there's still,
you know, a hundred people uh out of that, you know, group that they're interviewing that
are well qualified and could do a fantastic job.
And so uh but you had to get to that group of like a hundred and to do that I had to have
a PhD to do that.
just to get through the process.
And then and then they start looking at at, you know, your capabilities more uh you know,
through the inter interview process and that kind of stuff to see if you can be a good fit
for the t for being an astronaut.
So but yeah, it took that to get to like over the hump, I would say.
Hm.
What was the name of your class in ninety eight?
Uh, we were the penguins, 'cause we would never fly.
why did they call you that?
Oh well so when we came in, uh NASA had been thinking that they would need quite a few
astronauts.
To handle the flight load, because they planned on having, you know, six, seven people on
the space station.
And the space station was supposed to start in '98.
We got selected in ninety-eight.
Um, we were gonna have like six shuttle flights a year with seven crew members on there.
And so they had this whole plan, you know, we need a lot of astronauts.
So the class before '96 was really big.
Uh and so the biggest class ever of NASA astronauts.
And we were close, we know we weren't that big, but we were still probably like I don't
know, three-fifths of their side or something.
Something like that.
And so it was still a decent sized class.
And then as things started playing out, they realized that it wasn't going to come to
fruition like that.
It wasn't going to happen.
So there ended up being this huge queue of non-flown astronauts and not many
opportunities.
And so it was that was kind of known once we started.
And so then that's the name because they knew it was going to be ages before we flew.
And it was a like for me, it was nine years before I flew, and it was just because of
that.
And it was just
it was gonna be known and and it was like nothing you could do about it.
And so it it you know, and like any known thing, you make fun of that just to help you
through the process.
Yeah.
A and and you're you've moved into this ISS era.
I mean y um this is the end of the nineties, early two thousands.
You you know it's all about the International Space Station now.
and y you have four orbiters at that time, but then the Columbia disaster happens uh and
and so there's no flying for two and a half years, I think.
Uh I I think that I think there was one flight in in the space of three and a half years.
but you do eventually get to fly in two thousand seven.
on um ST STS a hundred and seventeen um on Atlantis for for two weeks.
and so so tell me about your first ever flight.
Oh man.
It was good and I I got lucky at the jobs I got to do also.
Um so be having the flight experience that I had uh working on the shelter in the
aircraft, I
got selected also as mission two which is the flight engineer on board.
So I'm I sit between the pilot and commander and you know both our test pilots and I I run
the checklist for all dynamic phases of flight.
So you know launch, entry, et cetera, and and work with them.
And so we'd you know go through all the training with them on the space shuttle.
Uh and that was really you know it's a great opportunity just to get that aspect of it.
And then I also got uh to do spacewalks, to do to two spacewalks on that one and flight
Both robotic arms, the one on the shuttle and one on the ISS, and just do a bunch of other
you know fun stuff.
It was was it to me it was just a fantastic first flight to get the opportunity to do so
many different things.
Uh, and uh, and it was a great crew, uh, fun, fun group of people to work with.
I don't know.
So it ended up being just a wonderful experience, and uh, you know, I got really lucky to
be on that one with that crew and and do the things I got to do.
And the idea, the objective was of that mission was to put a solar.
array on the ISS.
So we had the heaviest payload uh you know, to the ISS ever taken up, uh and, you know,
and put on and stuff like that.
So it was really, you know, kinda complex at the same same time, it was just a fun thing
to do.
Yeah, it sounds like you you got to do a bit of everything.
Uh really quite incredible.
Um Yeah, y you mentioned I I had noticed that it it was the heaviest flight ever by the
shuttle.
Um taking up solar arrays and the S3, S4 truss, really important for the ISS and for its
expansion, for its power, for doing more science, um all that you can do.
Um I'd love to hear what your first EVA was like.
Oh yeah.
but first off let's say we start in the pool right to train and we do so if and for the
shuttle flights, for every EVA you're going to do, you have to have at least seven runs of
that EVA in the pool.
And that's so you get it really down really, really well, what you're doing, uh, you know,
where you're going to work, um, how you're gonna set up your work site when you get there.
And that's an interesting thing about EVA when you say to set up your work site, because
you go out and you have a specific spot on the space station and where you're gonna do it.
And you have to know where the handrails are.
Say you have a bag with you with tools, where you're gonna put the bag, how you're gonna
attach it down, uh, all this kind of stuff, where you're gonna put all your tethers for
you and everything you have and all that.
So if you can be really efficient
About that, you can do things quickly and get done and accomplish all your tasks.
And so that's kind of you work that over and over again.
So you have that nailed down exactly how you're gonna do it, everything.
So you're not kind of doing as much real-time thinking when you get on onto that.
You you have a good plan at the beginning.
So you come, you get pretty comfortable again working in the suit, and uh
and just, you know, efficient at it at that time.
But the big thing is you haven't done it in real space.
The pool is different than uh the real world.
And the biggest difference is the water drag.
And so what you notice there is when I try to move in the pool, of course, as I you know,
as I'm trying to go across the station, I have to keep pulling over and over again because
water drag just stops me.
Right?
And so you kinda get but when you get out in space of course, you do one pull and you just
keep going because there is no drag.
That's one of the big issues.
The the other one is the drag kind of helps you when you want stability.
So
Um and the way when they weigh you out in the pool uh so you don't go up or down in the
pool column, because that's a neutrally buoyant idea, and so you're not floating or or
sinking in the pool.
But they do have to weigh you out with a certain attitude uh so that you're kind of will
always float back to that attitude.
And that's like a 30 degrees uh pitch down kind of here, here's your head, feet down like
this, and you're kind of like this.
It just is the the most optimal way to do it in the pool.
But that gives you this false sense of stability when you're working, as you
you won't always move.
You kind of will stay in that position.
And so some people will get used to
working like when they they stop someplace and you take both hands off a station but you
do have a tether on somewhere but it's just a tether and you start working with two hands
in the real world you're gonna start rotating as soon as you let go.
And so you're always gonna have this rotation in the in the in out in space uh while on
the pool you're kind of stable and you gotta realize that and that was definitely
something to get used to.
I mean I knew it was gonna happen, I've been told that, but until you do it in the real
world it's a big difference.
Uh that that instability of always being able to move
and trying to figure out a way to keep yourself stable.
It was definitely something different.
And of course the other biggest different thing you have is you have uh you're out in a
vacuum space above the earth.
And that was one thing.
So when I did my first spacewalk
Uh it was dark when we went out.
We go around the Earth every ninety minutes, but pretty much half the time it's dark, half
the time it's light.
And it was dark when I went out the hatch and the hatch faces down towards Earth.
And uh and really which you can only see depends where you are over Earth, but I couldn't
see much of Earth at that time because it was over like the ocean, so it was dark.
And uh and I could have my uh lights on my helmet, so I see about ten feet in front of me.
And and I've as I head out to my worksite, which is a ways out, it was actually on the far
end of the space station, uh
And and I felt really comfortable.
I felt, okay, I'm I'm this is like just kinda like the pool enough, good enough for me
that I can I can I understand exactly where I am and know what I need to do.
I'm feeling comfortable, I'm working well in the suit.
Uh and so uh I was feeling pretty good at that time coming out, like I I think this is
gonna go well.
And so I get out to my work start start working and uh and then the sun comes out and I am
say on the edge of station where I have a station and I'm off to the left of me and I'm
working and and
And I look down and the you know the sun comes out and there's the earth 250 miles below
me with nothing.
I mean below me between my feet and earth is 250 miles and there's nothing.
My brain kind of freaked out on that.
It went, it just went like this is not a safe place to be.
You shouldn't be here at this time.
And so I had to like, you know, I grabbed onto the henrail and had to talk myself down.
Uh, you know, like it it's okay, you know, you're floating.
It's interesting.
You're I don't know who you're having this conversation with, but it's like a subconscious
versus conscious mind thing going on where you have to
convince yourself that it's all good.
And it, you know, it took me like a minute or two to kinda recover from that aspect and
then get back to work again.
And it was definitely an interesting thing.
I did not expect that to happen, but it it uh you know it did and you know just had to
figure out a way to overcome it and work my way through it.
but I still enjoyed it, you know, you get more comfortable each time than you do it.
And as time goes on it you get more and more comfortable with it.
Your body gets used to it and realize it's okay.
But uh the first little bit definitely threw me for a loop for a minute.
Yeah, I've and you've done a lot of V VAs, um, which is is is a great great thing about
your career.
I've spoken with um actually a former crewmate of yours, Ricky Arnold, about this, about
the number of astronauts who get vertigo.
Um, you know, th they get out of the hatch and they they look down, they see the earth and
your your brain tells you you're gonna fall.
Uh you're just gonna fall straight to Earth after that.
But um w was it something like that for you or or
like that.
It was just like you know, like being to me, like, you know, if you go to those those
huge, you know, a very tall building where they have the glass floors and you walk out on
that that ledge, right?
It's the same feeling as that kind of idea.
Like this is not safe.
Your brain's telling you, you know, this is not good.
And so you have to just tell you know, no, it's all fine.
You're gonna be good, you know, you have to give that talk to yourself.
yeah, it was pretty interesting.
But then you get back to work and it's all it's good.
you know, it just takes a little while for for you to kind of get through that.
Yeah.
That i it breaks my heart that I will never ever see a shuttle launch in my life.
uh
know the but the the Artemis is not that far off from a shuttle launch.
you know, it's got the solid rocket boosters, a little bigger ones, got four engines
instead of three engines.
So I got to see Artemis two and it was uh it was a fantastic launch.
It it is something you need to go see.
It is a a a wonderful thing to see happen.
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh di did you enjoy uh launch or landing most on the shuttle?
man.
launch is definitely much more dynamic for sure.
I mean you are definitely know you've launched it somewhere.
'Cause that acceleration at the beginning is amazing.
You're thrown back in your seat and you're just going right off the launch pad.
So
Luckily, I think to help out, you know, I had tasks to do, you know, uh reading displays,
running the checklist, stuff like that.
So it definitely kept me uh more involved at uh not thinking about a lot of things, but do
doing my job.
But have to so I remember the f you know, the first flight I did, I was definitely really
into that.
Made you know, did not want to make a mistake and all this kind of stuff.
And so I'm trying to, you know, really concentrate on that aspect of it.
And I didn't maybe take in as much as I could of of the uh experience uh that was going
on.
'cause I was really uh and in that aspect.
And what I did realize on that first one though is that during the time the solid rocket
boosters are going, which is two minutes and ten seconds on the the first part of the
flight, is you are
shaken a lot.
And so it's like difficult to read your displays, uh even to find switches sometimes it
would have been difficult.
So we kinda left afterwards that you know, we go through hours and hours of training.
I mean, you know, it's like forty percent of your training flow for a year is doing launch
and entry entry.
And during that launch and with a solar rocket boost on, we couldn't have done half the
things we did in the sim just because you're shaking and you got the acceleration on you.
And it just was I I
I don't know.
It sounded very interesting.
The real world was much, much different than the Sims and on that aspect of it.
but so
On the second time though, I definitely was much uh realizing you know that was coming and
and knew that aspect of it.
I kinda when we first launched, I uh so we have uh I have a mirror on my wrist that I can
look out the window above me and see the uh the pad below me aspect of it.
And so I I watched the the whole beginning of it.
You know, we when the water may vapor comes on there and the big cloud comes up and all
that.
I got to watch that.
I watched the engines light and you can see the looks you know, the whole thing going on.
So I watched that for the first like ten seconds.
I watched the
whole launch that way and not uh and then I got back and did my checklist and did stuff
like that.
But it was definitely pretty fun to do that.
Yeah, that's so cool.
Well w an another thing that's that's pretty cool is um you have quite a quick turnaround
to your second flight.
you you flew in two thousand nine, less than two years later.
Um
was there.
Yeah, I lucked out on that one again.
Um I guess I didn't you know didn't screw up or something like that.
So that was good.
So and it was a very similar flight though.
It was a to put on another solar array.
And so uh and I got the it's kind of funny, the the person who was a first time flyer
pilot on my first mission.
Uh we were classmates together.
And then also so we both got upgraded.
He got to be commander and I was lead uh spacewalker or lead EVA for that mission.
And we had four planned EVAs for it.
And so that was fun to do too, um, aspect of it.
So but we did get lucky to get that quick turnaround uh and and go do that.
I think it was partly that because it was a summer.
flight uh and they assigned us to that for that idea.
Yeah, but yeah, we're definitely lucky to get that.
Yeah, it was fun.
It it does read as is almost identical.
It's it's nearly two weeks.
This time it's on Discovery.
You get to do two EVAs again.
Uh solar arrays, the S six truss.
Um and it's really the whole mission seems to be about getting the ISS fully operational
in terms of power.
Um so that the science can really happen.
And I I believe the you know the the analysis says that.
six people.
That was one of the big things too.
So that yeah, yeah, it was a big a big change in the station at that point.
to to have that happen.
And so it was definitely another fun one to be part of.
We had a good time, uh, you know, accomplished the mission.
Um so uh it was we did get uh core cut short, we only got to do we had four EVAs planned,
we got to do three and that was because we had a delay in uh in launch for a few days uh
because of a a you know something on the on the launch pad itself for the connection for
the fuel had a leak in it.
And so but there was also another vehicle coming from Russia.
coming up and so we couldn't stay long enough to do the rest of our mission.
We had to cut our mission a little bit short.
And so we couldn't do the last EVA on that because of that little slip.
So it was still fine though.
We still had a good time.
And you know accomplished it put the uh solar ray.
If you talk to Ricky you probably know all about that EVA putting that solar ray on.
It was it was a fun time.
We really enjoyed that.
Yeah, terrific.
And and one th one other thing about the the mission that was different that that I really
like is it was a night launch.
Or basically a night launch.
So the evening was dark enough.
Um night night launches are wonderful.
Yeah, it was it was good.
So yeah.
I mean, we don't really care.
uh But it was no, it is it is cool.
Uh night launches are great.
Uh so but uh well, it was it was another fun one though, that's for sure.
You know, it was uh
you are you're upgraded yourself to commander for your third mission.
Um commander of the ISS.
This time you're launching on a Soyuz in in twenty fourteen, so th the shuttle has been
retired.
Um what was it like launching on the Soyuz?
it's quite a bit different than the
The s shuttle for sure.
Um, you know, it doesn't have solid rocket boosters.
It's just uh liquid engines and so it doesn't have the same acceleration off the launch
pad.
It is slow off the launch pad.
And so that was a big difference.
I didn't realize that was going on.
Uh or you know, you don't really understand the exact that kind of differences because in
the Sims, you know, you don't have that kind of acceleration at all.
And so uh there was definitely things to it like that.
I think the most interesting or difference F OSO, you know, just being in Kazakhstan,
doing the Russian traditional things they do.
Uh you do whatever Yuri Gagarin did, you know, for uh pre-launch, uh all his traditions he
started.
And I don't think he started on purpose.
It just was everybody followed it afterwards and all that kind of stuff.
So it was just uh to be part of that was really interesting.
I I enjoyed that aspect of it to, you know, see a whole different culture of how they they
do their their launches, uh that aspect of it.
So that was a a really unique experience also to get that side of it.
I like that
thing to see, you know, uh something totally different than our view of how we do it.
You know, we don't really have really traditions too much uh for the shuttle launches and
stuff like that.
So they have so many compared to to what we do.
So it was pretty interesting to see the difference.
Is that being doused by the priest and having to urinate on the wheel?
That sort of thing.
tree in the s uh
You know, like promenade area that uh everybody who's launching a Soyuz or from that
launch pad has planted a tree.
So your yarn's the first tree, right?
And always p you know, going down the whole line there.
And then uh so that's kinda cool.
You do you write your name on the door of the room you slept in the night before launch.
You actually do a a toast with Russian management and your family's there and stuff like
that.
I mean, you know, as in real alcohol.
It was like forget to get on the on the vehicle and you're you're doing a toast.
Uh and then just just all these different things that you do that Yuri did.
Uh I don't know if you've heard about the the movie The White Son of the Desert.
Uh you have to watch that movie because he watched that movie.
And the the story goes, again, I don't know how true all these stories are, but the story
goes that uh since, you know, everybody was doing that, but it's not a great movie.
Uh it's it's a pretty bad movie.
And so somewhere along the line, like back in the eighties or something, uh somebody
or some crew decided not to watch the movie and they perished on f on liftoff.
And so from then on, everybody's guaranteed to watch that movie.
Uh it's part of a deal now.
So there's, I mean just there's tons of these little things that go on that you do.
and you do have to, you know, on the way to launch pad, just before you get there, they
top the vehicle you got to get out and relieve yourself on the tire of the vehicle.
Even though you've done a pressure check in the suit and everything like that, you're
basically taking the suit off and and you know doing that and you're putting it back on
yourself.
It's pretty funny.
But that's you just do that, everything you do.
It was it was definitely interesting to do.
Gosh and what was it like for you preparing to be on the ISS for six months rather than
two weeks?
Uh especially knowing that you're gonna be commander for the last three months.
Um, how did you prepare for that kind of mission?
Yeah, um well you you do a lot of traveling.
First the hardest thing is probably like being away from home, right?
Uh
And you get a lot of practice in that when you're doing this training, because we it's a
two and a half year training flow.
And I was gone for probably a year and a half of that.
And we had to be uh so much time in Japan, so much time in Europe, uh, and a couple of
weeks in Canada.
And like so you end up being a away from home a lot.
And so you get that that idea, we get systems down with the the family, how that's gonna
work out.
But ends up being more than because you have to go to Russia about eight weeks prior to
your launch.
you have the final tests, you have to go through on training and final tests, you get two
weeks off and you get two weeks and and Baikonor.
And so you're you're gone from home for for eight months on that aspect of it.
So it's definitely a a long time away from home uh to d to go through that aspect of it.
Um but you try to get yourself set up the best you can and you know, your communication
lines, stuff like that, you can do with the family.
family and and make sure that they're gonna be all all good.
So that's not gonna be an issue that you have to worry about too much.
So that really to me was the biggest thing.
Besides that though, you have to figure out like you know how you're gonna keep yourself
in good shape because
being in microgravity for that long is not good on your body uh and now that kind of
stuff.
And so you you know, what's your workout plan?
How you gonna go through that?
What's your you know, and that was actually m we know on two week missions, uh, we don't
work out or didn't work out on the shuttle.
And so uh it was something then totally new to get into the the whole workout program on
on the internet, something you do every day, uh while you're on the ISS.
And that was definitely uh you know, I like working out anyway, so it wasn't really that
difficult, but it was just a
different style of it and like that and how to how to figure that out and work that into
your day all the time.
That was they knew schedule it, but it's just little aspects of it that were different
that you had to figure out.
Uh just like anything, it's something new and you and you know, you you learn you train
how to uh do the task, but you don't train like the living side of it as much.
You really just can't do that.
And so you have to figure that out when you get there.
when you you know living there is it's definitely changes different because you know, I
got a it's like camping, right?
And it's going, you know, for a two week camping trip versus, you know, living camping for
six months is a big difference.
Right.
Ca have to change how you do everything 'cause it's it's that way for so long that you
have to uh figure out ways or you know, how you're gonna do everything in that aspect and
keep yourself in in a in a as you know, physically and mentally in a good position.
There there was some very cool science that that I was looking up for Expedition 39 and
40.
Um one thing I wanted to ask you about was it you installed the Veggie project on the ISS.
can you tell us what the Veggie project was?
Well it was the first time NASA had tried to grow I'd say edible food in in space.
That was what it was for.
And so they're trying to figure out how to do that.
And that is not an easy problem.
How do you do the soil, how do you do the nutrients, how do you water it, all that kind of
stuff.
And so um that came up and uh I got assigned to that uh that that task and it ended up
being, you know, really fun to do work on, I th I felt.
Yeah, I didn't really know what to expect with it at all.
I didn't know much about it because you know the thing about start off with science,
there's you know, over hundreds of experiments going on on there, and you get a little
half hour brief on each experiment before you go.
And it's starting like a year before your flight.
And so you don't remember hardly anything about these half hour briefs, and 'cause you get
so many of them, you got other things going on.
And so y it was you kind of have to relearn again when you get up there and you're gonna
work on something, you have to kind of figure it out.
And so
I got there and we and you had to put it together and the idea they had to come up with a
system of these uh call them like
pods but they're little packets where the soil I would call it soil is like little beads
of nutrients uh in there with a seed in there and the idea is you put them in there they
have a little slit on top where the plant's gonna come out of and so you have then a
facility that has lights in it, keeps it all contained uh and that aspect of it and these
pods and then a system that was supposedly the idea was it it had tubes running into the
bottom of these uh packets that had a membrane that would soak up the water and keep
water.
going into that.
Oh that ended up not working out the watering system we found out.
So was not doing that.
So I had to manually um water them every day and and do that.
And and so it was fine.
But it was just it was actually kind of interesting to grow something and ended up being
uh I got, you know, more I say kind of into it because I had to check on them every day
and water them every day and do these different things, clean it out.
And so every, you I get up in the morning and see how the plants were doing, you know.
who gr what how grow how big they got today, you know, are they growing still or not?
Is this one having trouble?
And so it kind of be more of a, you know, you get kinda invested into this whole thing and
helping them actually succeed in that aspect of it.
Yeah, Michael Fowles said something very similar about his mission on Mir, um, just how
engrossed he got in the the gardening and the plants and the seeds he was doing.
Do you do you know
gonna get that into it.
I ended up getting totally, you know, caring about and all that kind of stuff, making sure
they did well.
uh So
Uh do you know if they were were they harvested and eaten on the ISS?
No, so we harvested them.
Uh well that's a good story.
we were not allowed to eat them uh because
They uh didn't know if what kind of microbes they had on That was a story they told us.
they said, Hey, you know, we want to check out 'cause we don't know what they're gonna be
like.
They could have something else, uh they might not be safe for you.
Uh however, uh, you know, we saw this literally good.
It romaine lettuce we were growing, and we hadn't had fresh food in, you know, like four
months.
And so it was like, hm, I wonder how this would taste.
And so I have to admit, we did eat a little bit of it as you're picking it up, you know.
You had to package it up in this certain way for
them to send back down to earth so they could, you know, study it all.
but yeah, we definitely tried a little bit of it just to make sure it was okay.
And it was fine.
It was actually tasted really good.
Yeah, amazing.
the the mobile servicing system was another thing I wanted to ask you about on Expedition
forty, which I can't imagine is too popular with astronauts who like doing EVAs because
it's sort of uh the robot doing the EVA instead of you.
But
yeah, yeah.
I mean w i there's pros and cons to everything and and you know, we would like to do more,
of course, but it takes away from the science is really what it boils down to.
'Cause the EVA, not only do the the time in the EVA, uh it's the time setting up for the
EVA is a lot of hours.
And so you're taking away from a lot of science opportunities.
And so I understand that aspect of it.
And and also while we were there on thirty nine forty, we had to do a lot the suits were
down for a while.
I don't know if you know this this
spacesuits.
j I don't know if you remember you probably heard the Luca Parmatama story about the water
on the helmet.
Right?
So that was just before us getting there.
Wow.
Okay.
they determined what the issue was with the suits.
And what there is is there is a a fan pump separator in the suit, which is like one
electric motor that does the airflow, water flow uh to the suit.
So we need airflow, of course, to keep uh CO2 from building up in the suit for cooling.
We also have a water flow for cooling in the suit, also.
And so that's all drawn by this one pump.
And uh
there was an issue that some of the the ports got plugged in the this pump that then
caused the water to go into the air side is what happened.
And so we had to change them all out.
And uh they were not meant to be changed out in space, uh, but we had to do it.
There was no choice if we ever wanted to do another spacewalk again.
So
And I ended up doing uh four of these.
Uh more that so we take the you have to take pretty much the backpack of the suit and take
it apart and pull these things out.
And it was vr 'cause since they weren't meant to be done in space when they had originally
put them in, um, they weren't really documented of how it was done.
It was uh it was like these experts down on uh you know, the ground had done it mm many
times.
They were they knew how to do it, but it was not really well documented at all.
And what they had done though is to uh
lineup since it's basically, you know, electric motor with a shaft, you wanna make sure
that that is lined up perfectly so it doesn't have any wobble in it.
Uh right.
uh to create any vibrations.
And so they had shimmed it with the washers to make get this alignment right with long
screws in it.
And the problem we had is that when you took it out, uh these bunch of washers, we didn't
know how many or where they all were.
Um, but you had to make sure that you didn't lose any of them uh into the back of the suit
because then there would be a FOD or foreign object debris in the suit and that makes the
suit no go.
So you had to make sure you got every one of these and you talk and you really can't see
all the way in there.
Because you're working in this area where there's just like an opening, you're trying to,
you know, your hands can't even fit in there.
So we had to come up with ways to, like we had a vacuum, uh, which we put a shirt on the
on the end of the hose to catch things, and we'd try to catch all these as they were
going, as they come out and stuff like that.
But it worked out, but it was just a a difficult process to get these things changed out
and the suits all up on an operational.
So we had that issue.
So it's kind of nice.
So I so my first baseball, I did I on or the only one I guess I did on 3940, because we're
gonna do more.
What didn't happen um was I after we fixed these suits.
So uh I fixed them and then had to go put on and go outside and test and make sure they
worked on that space block.
But it was good.
It was it was uh they were uh
It was a fun task to to accomplish and got the suits back up and operational.
And then near the we were supposed to do another one, uh, but then the a battery on Earth
uh had an issue.
And so then they downed the suits again because of the batteries until we got new
batteries on board.
So it was just like uh things like that can always happen to you.
Even though you have things planned like that, something can happen and you don't get to
do it.
I I
was amazed listening to Ricky and and I'm always amazed listening to astronauts talk about
the the extent of the scientific research going on on the ISS.
And it's it really is a tragedy that people don't quite realize just how much the science
on the ISS has changed their lives down on Earth.
Um and I loved listening to you last month talk about um some of the science experiments
you were involved with on the ISS.
So I just wondered if you could share some highlights of some of the science you got to do
Yeah, there was right as you point out there is just tons of different things going on.
and it goes from like just learning like basic physics and science, you know, about things
to really specific things, you know
Man, yeah, we did so many different things.
And first, you know, the human body is one of the things we do for sure on.
And that is uh really interesting to find out what happens to the human body in this
microgravity environment.
And it ends up being it's like growing old quickly.
Uh we get, you know, muscle loss, bone loss, immune system issues, cardiovascular issues,
eyesight issues.
Uh it's just like all these things that happen when you grow old.
And so you can do a lot of tests on that and figure out how to to slow that process down
or mitigate the process or how
Helped we people get through the process the best they can, all that.
And that can help, you know, astronauts and people back on Earth.
And then you got just the uh the actual physics of things.
you know, got the alpha, we don't really work with it, but the alpha magnetic spectrometer
looking for dark energy out there.
That's a that's a really to me a cool thing.
Uh that's just sitting on the edge of station uh trying to, you know, measure that aspect
of it.
But for us,
there was uh the things you do f you know, from how different things, you know, different
not only you say we grow our own food, but that we do many experiments on just plant
growth to see uh why things are the way they are.
Why do, you know, and what are the genes that actually control different aspects of like
why do uh roots grow this way and not this way and all that kind of stuff.
We've done those.
You got the protein crystal growth, which is, you know, how to really
make better better medicines uh aspect.
It just it just goes on and on for that spec stuff.
So this to me the science is cool, but you also gotta remember to me being an engineer, I
think all the engineering things that have changed because of uh space flight, the the the
the
the new things we've had in our life because of space flight is also an amazing aspect.
It's not just a science in that aspect, it's the new things that have been invented for
space flight that we use every day in our world.
Like I don't know if you guys, you know, have the cordless drill, right?
That you use around the house.
you know, everybody pretty much everyone has one in their garage now.
Well that was started from the Hubble flights.
The first spacewalks they had to have one of those.
And so they came up with a cordless drill.
And you know, I mean it may probably would have come up anyway, right?
But that was where that first
original one came from.
And so there's just tons of things like that that you go on that we have that came from
the space program that we use every day in our life.
And I think that's something that is definitely missed out on.
And people really realize that the there's a lot of return on your investment in that
money.
You you retired um the year following your m last mission, uh in in twenty fifteen, to
take a job at Boise State University.
Um but your work still has some connection with NASA, doesn't it?
Regarding um s uh space suit user interface technologies.
Could you tell us about that kind of work you're doing?
I do at Boise State is I of course work with students and we do NASA challenges is the I
guess my main job I'll say.
And what that is is NASA puts out challenges really for prototypes for university students
to get together and create a team and then to uh
write a proposal on what your idea for this prototype would be.
And if that gets accepted, then you a you build it and you test it at one of the NASA
centers.
And so it's a pretty much a year-long project for the students to do.
And so we get teams to do those things.
I have three of those different uh teams right now.
Uh one is on tools for using during spacewalk.
They they always looking for new different tools for different applications.
And also we're doing uh lunar stuff now too.
so that's kind of fun to throw in the lunar aspect of it.
Uh same with then the next one is informatic system or basically a heads-up display that
would you put in a spacesuit.
So you all the different things you could show on that.
Uh not only do we now have a heads-up display though, we have a an arm pad with this
display on the arm with a keyboard on that, so they can control different things with that
aspect of it.
So they're trying to figure out what the optimum way is to use all these kind of new
technologies in this aspect.
And it's kind of fun to work on that for sure.
And the last one is doing lunar robotics, where they're looking for an autonomous vehicle
to be able to do work on the moon.
really they they're the for their prototype, they're looking for one to make a berm.
And the idea behind that is when vehicles land on the moon, it's gonna create a lot of
dust coming up from the regolith.
And uh so they wanna try to minimize that.
If they can have a robot build a berm around where the landing site's gonna be, and then
it would keep the dust from flying on all the habitats and all the you know, your solar
rays, et cetera, out there to keep the dust off it.
So that's kind of fun.
There and students it gives them a great opportunity to really apply the skills that they
have and learn new skills, you know, working on teams, that aspect of it.
And it's it's and NASA is a great motivator for them to be able to go and test their
products at NASA is just a fantastic thing.
That's absolutely amazing.
Uh w we're at a quite an interesting time at the moment.
You m talked about Artemis II earlier.
Uh what are your hopes for the the near future for the space industry?
Yeah.
Um, well definitely, you know, the Artemis missions uh I think they're gonna go strong.
I like to see that.
Um but you know, but also, you know, they got the commercial side uh of space, you know,
SpaceX, Blue Origin, et cetera.
I think that that has a lot of opportunity there.
And I'm hoping that soon there's multiple companies who are working at doing a replacement
to the ISS.
It's gonna be a commercial side.
So there'll be a commercial company that would actually run that aspect of it, leaving
then NASA to do more of the
moon and Mars objectives on that kind of stuff.
So hopefully that takes off and you start going and getting that better.
I do like the position that uh at least NASA has done with the commercial side.
I think they've done a good job of creating the contracts that are beneficial for both
NASA and for the commercial side.
And so that helps that's why the growth has done I think so well lately in that race realm
is because the way they have set that up and uh and it's going to continue to grow and I
think going to be serious
You're looking at a really a great time for space exploration.
I think in the next, you know, twenty, thirty years, it's gonna really uh have some great
changes.
So I'm definitely looking forward to watching all that.
Wish I could be part of it, but that's that those days are gone.
Thank you so much.
I if people want to find out more about you and your work and your research, where should
they go?
man, I got I gotta I do have a website uh but uh Steve Swanson like astronaut.
But you know, that's about the only place you know, the online there's stuff on there's a
wiki page, all that kind stuff, but you know uh I don't really I you know, I don't even
have a Twitter account.
I don't do that.
Just to let you know, so I uh I I do have the first Instagram from space as a you know, a
claim to fame.
But it was I did it from the I I I I uh
I I created the ISS account because I did not want to have my own uh I thought it was uh
should be it's more important to me to be about the program and about the ISS and about
me.
So I started the ISS account and so I did everything the all my thing I I did post and if
stuff on the ISS was to the ISS account.
And and that's still going on, which I'm pretty happy about.
So I think that's if you want to learn more about the space stuff, go to the ISS Instagram
account.
Brilliant.
Thank you so much.
It's been s really amazing talking to you about your career and thank you so much for
everything you've done.
And um I look forward to seeing more of of your work at Boise State and at NASA over the
coming years.
Thank you very much.
Take care.