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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Okay. Welcome to The Overflow with Brandon and Susan Thomas, and we are so pumped to be here. This is our opportunity to extend the conversation. Just keep the conversation going as we encourage each other in biblical truth, as we encourage each other in all the things of the Lord. And let me tell you, we are just so overwhelmed and excited about the opportunity we have for you today with Pastors Kevin and Sheila Gerald from Champion Center Church in Seattle.
Speaker 1:Pacific Northwest is really what I should say because you have campuses and and just such a reach. But they're also, as I have said, they are spiritual parents to many sons and daughters as they've launched a network of of churches called Team Church. This is a great couple that's meant a lot to us, and we are excited to bring them to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, we really are because it's pastors, you're leaders, leaders of leaders, and we're thankful to call you friends. And we just believe God's gonna encourage whoever's listening today. Our heart is that your heart would be open, your mind would be open and just let God encourage you, even challenge you as he leads you to what's next. So we're excited to have a conversation.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Thank you. The
Speaker 3:So good to be here. So happy to be with So you much.
Speaker 1:Oh man. And tell a little bit about Champion Center and a little bit about Team Church, just what you guys have built together. Thirty nine years at Champion Center.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we went to the Northwest thirty nine years ago and I I went to help them find a pastor, it was a church that I had spoke at and ministered in. And I went because I was in St. Louis, my dad was a pastor. So I was the one, it was the successor, expected successor to my dad's church. So anyway, not being a lead pastor, I was able to take time and go.
Speaker 3:So I went and was helping them find a lead pastor and I became the lead pastor. And so that, but the crazy part of that is that the church was so divided, split and it was in bankruptcy, like legal bankruptcy, had a building that was half finished. It's not something you would desire. An older pastor said to me, he said, when he heard I was gonna do it, said, son, you have more guts than you do brains. That's kinda how he summarized it.
Speaker 3:Frame that. You know? So And
Speaker 4:I told him, I'm not coming. I'll be home when you get home.
Speaker 3:Yes. But God spoke, God worked, and here we are thirty nine years later, and we have four physical campuses now in that area. And it's been our home for the forty years and it's a beautiful place. The geography of the Northwest for those who have never been there, there's nowhere more beautiful. And so I recommend you come in between like June, July, yeah, July and August, up through maybe September, late September.
Speaker 3:After that, it's on you if you come because it could be rainy cloudy any given day.
Speaker 4:And I wanna add to the team church. What got that started is we got into the Northwest and we had no friends. We were independent. Yeah. We left the organization denomination just because we wanted to pursue things and to be in a world that was bigger, we thought.
Speaker 4:And once we got out there, we had no friends, we knew no pastors, and we tried to find our tribe.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So a few years ago, I think it started naturally happening. Thank you for the comments on it, but it just naturally I really didn't see it. We didn't like organize or think we're going to do a team church organization. It just started happening in that young pastors and church leaders started asking us to lead them, be their pastors.
Speaker 3:They were just circling us for guidance and direction and out of that, the organic conference grew and they started coming from all over the world. And then just a couple years ago, we formalized it and announced that we're becoming team church organization. So that's our forever future. We see that as what we'll do for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow. Wow. You know, it's so interesting, and as we have spent time together, that I'll literally say a phrase or something, and that And came from then I'll say another phrase that I have fully adopted, and it came from you.
Speaker 2:Yes, like And in a book you
Speaker 1:it's just funny. Isn't it the way that God is, that God brings? And these were baked into my teaching before we had ever physically met. And I remember early in a Keystone story that we did a series called Mind Monsters. And you were so kind.
Speaker 1:You shot a video. You didn't know who we were. We were this little church in a furniture store and you shot a video for us. It's just that generosity. Yes.
Speaker 1:And just, you know, that meant a lot. But even one that was big, but we were recently talking and I said, you know, pastor Kevin, keystone, our DNA is honor up, honor down, honor all the way around. And you just started laughing. And I was like, that's one of yours. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. Like
Speaker 2:fifteen years
Speaker 3:ago, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, mean, you started talking about that for specifically honor, what, fifteen, twenty years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yep. That was, I mean, recently somebody did this. They said they went to, is it AI chat or what the chat?
Speaker 4:Chat GPT.
Speaker 3:Chat, yeah. And they're like, I did that whole honor up, honor down and ask where it came from. I was asking where it came from. And it named, know, Craig Groeschel said has said it, John Bevere has said it, and went through this whole list. And so they said they they said they informed it and said, well, it actually originated in Kevin Gerald back in '20 not 2009 or something like that.
Speaker 3:Anyway, it came back and said, yes, you're absolutely right. Originated with Kevin Gerald. So anyway, it's it's sort of like you don't when you come up with a phrase like that, and it's meaningful for you and your church, and it takes you where you need to go culturally with your leadership and your church, and people hear it, pastors hear it, they just start saying it. And you know, that's okay. I've told my wife lately, I do wanna try to figure out how to know that my great grandchildren will know what their great grandfather said and what his thoughts were.
Speaker 3:So maybe I need to be a little bit more like open with, yeah, God gave me that. That's something I believe with all my heart.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, it's a pain that you went through, so to speak, that burned this quote that you say, you know, the story behind it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we talked about another one that came out of pain was dumb dichotomies.
Speaker 1:Right, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:I had a time where I was, you know, just trying to bring and people were there some like this and some believe that, and they're pitting two truths against each other, which is a dichotomy. Right. And a lot of Christianity does that. They take two truths, and they're both true, but somebody likes one of them more, And so they down the other one or they try to undermine the other truth. And so dichotomies anyway, out of our world came that out of my heart came that whole dumb dichotomies concept.
Speaker 1:Okay. I gotta do that. Yep. We gotta talk about that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Examples.
Speaker 1:Examples of dumb dichotomies. I'll let you think about it. Like, start revving up. Like, dumb dichotomy would be for my older brother. I'm gonna out him right now.
Speaker 1:Is it peanut butter and do you like peanut butter or do you like mayonnaise? For him, that's a dumb dichotomy. He has peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwiches. That was bad.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:Was bad. So disgusting to me.
Speaker 3:Gets it together.
Speaker 1:But brothers like to, and that's me doing that for him right there. It's gross. I hope everybody's grossing out right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's terrible, Brett. Terrible.
Speaker 1:So what are some realistic dumb dichotomies that you have seen?
Speaker 3:Well, that was really big back then was when I came up with it, there were churches that, I mean there were articles written, there were pastors, there were churches that were saying, we're attractional, we're missional. Okay, so in other words they would, in our church we would teach culture issues like generous in gesture. Like you need to be generous in gesture. You know we would tell our team, staff. No, we can be excellent.
Speaker 3:Like we want excellence in the lobby, we want excellence at the you know, so that's what they would call attractional. Like we were actually saying to our church, let's set the table for people with hospitality, kindness, and there were some who were like real missional who didn't like the sound of that. It sounded corporate or commercial or whatever. So they were missional. They wanted everybody to know we're missional, we're not attraction.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so that's one that's like for churches and leaders. And I'm like, why do you have to pick between those two?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Like why can't you be both? Like why can't you have, you know, the unity of both of those powers working within one church. So that would be one that was big popular back then.
Speaker 1:I remember worship or evangelism. Are you gonna be a worship church or are you gonna be an evangelism church? And the feeling back then was like, you have to choose. Are we gonna go deeper with the Lord? Well, then you're not gonna reach people.
Speaker 1:Well, you're gonna reach I call it seeker sensitive. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:Be seeker sensitive and cut out your worship.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You don't have to choose. It was you
Speaker 3:don't have to choose. Yeah. It's not something that you have to pick. And unfortunately, not only is it that you don't have to pick, is that it's so divisive. Yes.
Speaker 3:Minute you raise that issue and you put the other one down. Right. Golly. You know, you're bringing shame to a church that maybe is approaching something like more going all in with worship, for example. You're gonna, well, you need to quieten down, be seeker sensitive.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And actually to his credit, the guy who came up with seeker sensitive years later, he had gone big on that. And years later, he's like, I was wrong about that. Like I should not have sacrificed the opportunity for my church to come in and worship freely. Yeah. And I shouldn't have handcuffed them.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I shouldn't have stopped that. Yeah. And I was only thinking of one person and actually God can work
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:In a worshipful atmosphere.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So Who thunk? Yeah. Who thunk it all?
Speaker 2:And I wonder sometimes if it comes from a heart, this whole thing of a bent towards legalism as people, we just tend to bend towards legalism. We wanna control and put the laws around what should be.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And we miss what is, that God's multidimensional and we need to know all of who he is. And so we find ourselves in these spaces. Instead of there being the both and we're like, no, it's either this or it's this.
Speaker 3:So for the team church group that's listening to this with our inner workings, so Do you plan your service or you let the Holy Spirit move? That would be a dumb dichotomy. Right. There it is. Like it's assuming that the Holy Spirit can't move through your plan.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Or that you can't on Thursday, Friday, Tuesday, Monday come up with a church service plan for the weekend that God can be in that that planning part. So there there are freelance churches who got you know, they're like, you know, we don't really put together a plan, we just let the holy spirit move on a weekend, or we want the Holy Spirit to move in our church. And so some are, they get so much in that that they debunk the planning process, and that's a dumb dichotomy. Yes. It's like, can't we do both?
Speaker 3:Like can we not have a plan for our service, songs we're gonna sing? So maybe, I don't know, some churches wouldn't have that as a big deal, but I came from a background that was very you know more Pentecostal Feely. Spiritual feely emotional. So plan like was you know, it's
Speaker 1:like, then
Speaker 3:the holy spirit can't move. You're gonna the Holy Spirit. And we found out, no, the best thing is if you have a plan and you let the Holy Spirit That's
Speaker 4:Absolutely. So My dad wasn't the best preacher, so we would pray for the Holy Spirit to move.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3:Bless your
Speaker 4:dad. I honor my dad.
Speaker 1:You could
Speaker 3:go on and on you guys. Yeah, that's good. Our church going to be a church where we are for older people? Or are we gonna be a youth church? And why do you have to choose?
Speaker 2:Dumb dichotomy.
Speaker 3:Dumb dichotomy.
Speaker 1:Yep. I love that.
Speaker 2:So helpful.
Speaker 1:Back to honor. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about honor because I think there is contempt for honor in our culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's this, I so don't want to celebrity you. I don't want to idolize you. So to prove that I'm not worshiping you, to prove that you're not a celebrity in my eyes, to prove that we're on equal ground, I'm gonna have contempt for honor. I mean, I've visited churches before where I'm walking around and someone is graciously hosting us and showing us their building because we were in a building project. And they spoke with contempt about their pastor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it broke my heart.
Speaker 3:It
Speaker 1:broke my heart. Then sure enough, and this was a great, large, wonderful church with fruitful ministry. Not long after, I mean, the church really did not treat the pastor well. He ended up leaving. It's just, honor, I kinda wanna do that, bring honor back.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Know, let's bring honor back. That's been a message of y'alls. Yep. Y'alls, we're in Texas.
Speaker 1:Do hear that?
Speaker 3:Yep. Y'all. It's been
Speaker 1:a message of y'alls for, again, one of those Many areas. Great
Speaker 2:Yes. And it extends to so many areas, the church, the home, your marriage, and your children, all of it. This is a huge message. Love to hear your hearts.
Speaker 4:Go for it.
Speaker 3:Well, are in the Pacific Northwest. And so during the early 2000s, it really came to light that there were churches in the Pacific Northwest that were raised up in an anti establishment mentality. So the pastors, the leaders, different ones, were anti establishment and they saw that as meaning if you had a established church, they were against it. Yeah. If you had an organized church, they were against it.
Speaker 3:If you had a church that, and I know it sounds crazy, but it's just true, that's what anti establishment does. So in the Seattle land area, the home of Starbucks, in the very early days Starbucks came out of the gate with this customer friendly idea concept that we would, you would come into a Starbucks and it was like a community. They would know what you wanted, they would know your drink, they would put smiley faces on your cup, they would smile at you, they would welcome you and then there was a culture being created by, and Howard Schultz, the founder wrote a book called Pour Your Heart Into It. So he had this whole, know culture concept based on kind and friendly.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But Seattle is a grunge city, they're very proud of more of a anti, that's anti establishment. So Starbucks took its greatest flack right there in its own hometown.
Speaker 4:Wow. You
Speaker 3:know, it was least honored in its own hometown. And they had to fight those fights. And today, unfortunately, it's definitely gone down from where it originated in those areas. And so we just said, let's bring honor back. We felt it in our church, we felt it in people that they come to a church and they would come with this attitude, you know better than I am, you know, leaders or who do they think they are?
Speaker 3:Like this whole thing, we're gonna, it's anti establishment. And we had worship, a praise and worship team that had an attitude about, not doing our show. So youth, young people coming up with talent, play a guitar, keyboard, worship, whatever it might be. And then they would come to the adult services on the weekend and they would just stand with their hands by their side. They weren't gonna join in because it was the older church.
Speaker 3:And so anyway, I just saw all of that and I'm like, we gotta like deal with all this like head on. And that's where bringing on her back originated. And you know, there are fallouts because of that, if you can believe it. Like there were young people that I couldn't let on the platform anymore. There were attitudes, you just had to deal with attitudes and behavior and so forth to say, no, we're gonna honor around here.
Speaker 3:We love our youth service, we love the songs that you do and you love, but you gotta also honor what a weekend looks like and the lead team on the platform. You're a youth team, but you're not the lead team.
Speaker 4:And we had employees too that would honor up really easily, but on their team and below them, they were not considerate, they were not generous. And he said, no, that's not what it's all about. You can't just honor us. You gotta honor down to your team and generous to them and honor them and thank them for showing up. That was a newbie for some
Speaker 3:my because as you're saying that, I see their names and I do. Know exactly And who we're referring we would start to hear about, you know, from other team members or staff when we would go in there and ask specific questions, we're realizing that someone working for us who showed so much honor toward us would go in the other rooms And they were not honoring their team. Yeah. They were not honoring the people on their team. They were not showing gratitude and appreciation.
Speaker 3:They were walking in like I'm the boss. I'm the, you you do what I say. It had a whole different spirit and attitude. So it wasn't just for us that we're talking about honor up or honor us. It was about, no, we honor up, we honor down and we honor all around.
Speaker 3:And that's where that phrase was born in our heart to just say, come on guys, this has to be everywhere to be part of
Speaker 1:our culture.
Speaker 4:I think too that's when we started talking to our praise and worship team that you gotta honor the children. Get in that children's ministry, raise up some praisers in there, build them, honor them, and that was a new thing.
Speaker 3:Honor the potential in your children.
Speaker 4:And the children. So, yeah. That's
Speaker 2:terrible. Well, I naturally, when I hear things like this, I naturally look for what's the root of this? What's the root of that behavior? What's the root of that attitude? You mentioned and you've preached it before that it swings in two directions.
Speaker 2:One is the idol worship of another person and one is the contempt of another person. And as you talk about even the person on your staff that was able to honor you, but not able to honor those that he or she was leading, you know, the root that jumps out to me is that's an idol worship of you guys, it's counterfeit honor that you're receiving. The heart behind it is not seeing the dignity of the people that are all around you, up, down, all around. And I think it often can come even in your home or wherever from an insecurity and you've preached this, an insecurity that, oh, I'm better than
Speaker 4:you. Right.
Speaker 2:Rather than an understanding we're all a wreck, we're all a mess, Jesus saved us all, praise you God. And then I can see you for who you are and honor the dignity and the journey that you're in with your creator. So it's powerful to get to that root of what is causing that and how do we overcome it?
Speaker 3:The reason I think it's resonated that phrase, and you know, it become known across the church world is because I think that anytime you would bring up honor, everyone would assume that as the spokesperson or the pastor, you're saying honor me,
Speaker 1:that's right.
Speaker 3:And they would just assume that, like honor me, honor the big guy, honor the boss. And I think just that sentence, that phrase does away with that concept. We're not talking about just honor up. We're talking about honor down as well and honor all around. I think it liberates and frees the church world in its entirety.
Speaker 3:Because I've wondered, thought why did it resonate? Why is it gone where it's gone? And I think that's probably the number one reason why is because we've always thought of honor as something that is one way and it's not.
Speaker 1:Right, I love that.
Speaker 4:So rich.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think it's possible even some people would say, Well, I'll honor down, but I struggle to honor up. Know? Like it's noble to honor down for some. True. It's noble to honor down, but you struggle to honor up.
Speaker 1:And I would just go to the word of God. First of all, honor the Lord is the dominant honor. Right. But there's honor your parents, that's up. That's up.
Speaker 1:If you're a child, honor your parents, that's up. It says in scripture, your leaders, talking about spiritual leaders, talking about those Ephesians four leaders, pastors, teachers, they deserve a double honor. Exactly. That's what it did. And then in the book of Isaiah, I believe, it says that you can honor with your lips, but if you're not actually following through with behavior, that's not honor.
Speaker 1:Good. And I wish I had that for me to quote, but so good. And then you this, you blessed Keystone with this teaching, and it is about how there are some attitudes and behaviors that are, I'll let you finish it, not compatible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're not compatible. So let's reframe it. It's that God's favor is impartial. Yes. From one person to the other.
Speaker 3:He wants to put his favor on all of our lives. But God's favor is not compatible with every attitude and behavior.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 3:So for example, if I'm praying, if a person is praying, God, give me favor on my job, but they're only half heartedly working at their job, then the Bible says that Jesus could not do many miracles in his own hometown. The idea is that you bind God up and God is not able to work through a person who is not honoring their boss, their employer by working hard on their job. Yeah. By coming in late, by being slawful, by not giving it their best, that to God is unacceptable. And God can't like go ahead and, well I'm gonna promote you because you prayed and asked for me to promote you.
Speaker 3:So I'm gonna promote you now to a higher level. No, wait a minute. Your attitude, your behavior is not compatible with God's favor. So you get an alignment with your attitude and behavior, and then you pray for the favor and that's where God can really
Speaker 2:work And in your it goes everywhere what you're saying to the wife right now, who you're praying for your husband and he's got some broken patterns in his life and you're praying and yet you disrespect him daily in your heart.
Speaker 4:You feel
Speaker 1:like you have a hall pass to this.
Speaker 2:Pass, but you're disrespecting him with your tone or your attitude or you're in front of the children.
Speaker 1:Very good.
Speaker 2:It's not compatible with the presence and power of God for the prayers that you're praying.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:And so I know marriage is something we really wanna hit with you guys.
Speaker 1:Wanna read that though. Wanna go back. I wanna read this, Mark six, the verse you just mentioned. Mark six, and he could do, sorry, my eyes, he could do no mighty work there except he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them. That is so raw.
Speaker 3:It limits the work of God in your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Not would.
Speaker 3:Dishonor limits. Yeah, it's not would, he would not do, it's not God being stubborn. It's like he cannot. Come on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's life changing.
Speaker 3:Cannot work in a place where there's dishonor and you know, wrong behavior, wrong attitude.
Speaker 2:It's life changing.
Speaker 1:Let's go to that marriage talk.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, that's what you were talking about too. I hear that a lot where women are believing God that their husband will come to church. And I always start with, are you honoring him at home? What does he want you to do at home that you're not doing so that when you're serving your husband and you have to understand y'all, if you really know me, I don't like the word submission.
Speaker 4:Really hard. I'd have to ask God to help me. So for me to say to serve your husband Yeah. You know, that that can that's not probably because I have a hard time listening. But I truly believe that you're you as a wife, if you want your husband saved
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:You can pray for him all you want, but if he does want you to go on an adventure with him on a Sunday, you go have so much fun with him and do whatever and pray to God that he sees the difference in the life that you're living. And the joy that you have when you are in your community of a church that he's gonna wonder, like, what is this all about? And want to come to see what the community's all about. Yeah. But if you are preaching to him and constantly asking him but not serving him well
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I think he's gonna have a problem with church.
Speaker 1:Let's take it there, Susan. Let's take it to marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Here we have this amazing couple gone the distance and still a lot of road ahead, but you've been faithfully married for how long?
Speaker 4:Be forty seven years.
Speaker 3:Almost fifty. I mean, it's unbelievable. We got married when we were eight years old.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's incredible.
Speaker 2:But that's a rarity. Anybody listening, I mean, you look around and that's a rarity to see couples, see a family that goes the distance, still loves each other. I mean, being around you guys, you guys love each other. It just comes you can see it. I think people listening would just truly wanna know how, tell us some of the things.
Speaker 3:So my answer is gonna be a bit simplistic. You wanna go first? You could answer, maybe I think that the simplistic answer is that it's not any different than anything else that is righteous that you are doing and can do for a long time. So number one, the commitment level can't be wavering. You are committed to one another and you're committed to making the marriage a great marriage.
Speaker 3:Out of that flows the idea that you overcome now, you overcome your differences, you overcome your discouragements that you have, you overcome the disputes. Here I am going down my D list, but you know, you overcome the things that would get into a marriage and divide a marriage. You overcome those things by way of being so committed to it. Every marriage suffers from differences and disputes and you know, you're actually opposites attract, and then they attack. So out of that attraction that you have, you're attracted because you're different.
Speaker 3:You see something in the other person that is not you. Different. We are night and day different. But then what do you do about that? Do you celebrate it and you learn to celebrate it and laugh about it?
Speaker 3:Sheila has ADD, for example.
Speaker 4:And we get to play hide and seek all the time.
Speaker 3:And yeah, so the thing is she's playing hide and seek with her keys, my keys, you know. Anything, she can pick up something we share, she'll pick it up and move the brush, the whatever it might be. My shoes could be sitting out and she'll take them and they won't be in my closet because on her way to put them in my closet she had another thought and she went back over in this room somewhere and she set those down while she was It's doing something
Speaker 4:so fun. It's It's
Speaker 3:so so we call it fun, know? Even though it's annoying, we call it fun. So it's just getting your right mindset about it. And again, I don't wanna be, but I think sometimes we dive too deep because we know the word of God, we know that there are times where we need a counselor to help us really navigate it and figure it out.
Speaker 4:And you know, go back to the ADD or ADHD or whatever it is, we had that hit the wall moment.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:Where we said, we need help. He said, we need to figure this out, Sheila. And that's when we saw our first real intense counselor. We flew out to Denver, we were there a week and we were like, you know, I'm driving him crazy. Because we sat down and the guy said, so tell me what's going on.
Speaker 4:And we both looked at him and said, actually, you know, nothing really bad, we wanna finish strong. And he looked back at us and he said, I'm usually sitting and looking at a crisis situation, not like I wanna finish strong. And we said, we just know that if we don't do something that it won't finish strong. And that was a fun week for us because we knew that we were after something that we wanted it to last and to go the distance, and so we learned to laugh about things. And then I learned that, you know, to change my life, I had to change my thinking and my mind.
Speaker 4:I had to get habits and, you know, start doing some habits. So when I am busy and we do a lot of traveling, that's when I notice is when I kick back in and I'm like, okay, I don't have my routine and all right, hon, we're back home now and I gotta get my routine again. I'm sorry, I'm gonna lose some things right now, I'm just trying to remember where everything is. And so he gives me grace on those times when I gotta get back into my routine, it takes me about twenty four hours to get everything situated again. And
Speaker 3:I used to kind of hide too, we used to kind of hide our annoyance, know, we didn't really know we were awkward at it like with our staff and our team. So I always felt like, man, I can't like let people know like what she actually does. And then you heard me a few moments to describe something and it's humorous.
Speaker 4:You
Speaker 3:find your way into with like knowing, I'm not tearing her down when I say that, because we came into agreement that we're gonna make it fun. And then we realized it's laughable. Our life that was annoying us is actually laughable. And when you share it other people like lights go on for them and they get free because you're learning to laugh about it. So our whole team and staff, it's interesting how they view us like they view us totally different.
Speaker 3:But the thing is like with Sheila, they just adore her. They love her and they learn to laugh like with me, our security team, it's our security team like the minute we get out at our locations, they're with us, there's a security and they take care of us, they look after us, that kind of thing. But the point is that, and this is funny, I think it's funny. Sheila's security is they're on the little walkie talkies and speakers and all that, and it's constantly like, it feels like once a month at least they lose her. Like they lose where she's at
Speaker 4:she That sounds is I'm finding a shortcut to get to that person I wanna meet that's way over there.
Speaker 3:She's darting around to touch people like she loves interacting with people. And so whether it's our services or whether it's a conference we're hosting or whatever it is, like, she's often gone.
Speaker 4:Remember wanting to meet a couple that came to our conference, a pastor and their wife, and I ran. I knew they were leaving. I darted out this other back way and got to the parking lot, and I'm like, where are you guys going? I turn around and my security's like, where is she?
Speaker 3:Security's like, we lost her. We lost her. I saw her going down the hallway in the back of the church, I was like, and I'm laughing on the other end. We're laughing about it. But the point is that everyone and they'll laugh with us.
Speaker 3:It's a- I
Speaker 4:learned that, you know, but-
Speaker 3:Her assistants will on a regular basis, they will say, I just turned around. She told me to get the names of these people and I turned around, I'm talking to them, I'm getting their names and I turned back around, she's gone, like she's not there.
Speaker 4:Let me just say this for those wives that do and you deal with the thing that I have, stop telling yourself you're stupid, stop telling yourself that can't do anything right, but make it fun because your marriage is worth it. Yeah. And try to figure out how you can get the right rhythm going with your spouse, whether it's the man or the woman that has what I have, because you can change your life and you can change your whole relationship.
Speaker 2:And that's powerful with the perspective because we can, in all of life, God's design is best, but we can sometimes get in this, well, I have to follow God, I just, I have to do what he says or I'm in a punishment or hell or all the things. Rather than God is for us not against us, His design is life. And so marriage, it's life and I wanna pursue the goodness of God and I wanna know this person and pursue them that I've been given, it's a completely different perspective.
Speaker 3:It's legalistic versus grace, it really is. And the idea that, and I think that's another dumb dichotomy actually, because legalism in our world, New Testament, doesn't mean we do away with the commandments of God. That's right. They're still there. Their 10 commandments are still the 10 commandments.
Speaker 3:We observe them and we follow them. Yeah. And that's what God wants for our life, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's still there, but there's a grace built in and that's what you're talking about, Susan, is the motivation. That's it. The motive of your heart is different when you say, God is really for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like I'm serving out of an understanding that God wants the best for my life. Not out of, I have to follow the 10 commandments.
Speaker 1:But then there's this grace error of even if I'm in tough situation, you know, where's the yes? Where's the grace? Where's that good stuff? Where's the you're not just I've known people, they're in a harbor and they're just so down all the time. They're just, man, I'm just, you know, I've gotta stay in it.
Speaker 1:No, hey, but how about you get to honor the Lord with the way that you're gonna love like your husband that doesn't know Jesus. You're gonna honor him. You're gonna give him the fruit of the spirit. You get to do that. God sees you.
Speaker 1:You're getting spiritual It's total change of air. Right. You're in a different air of motivation. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:When spoke I did what's called Doors of Divorce, Doors Ways of Divorce,
Speaker 4:series Divorce. On it. Closing the Doors
Speaker 3:Closing the Door on Divorce. And I did a research and a study on a book, and I don't remember the title, it might come to you, but it's basically a big thick book that was done by a secular individual researcher, professor on the consequences of divorce. And when I got into that, I realized why God hates divorce.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I
Speaker 3:think a lot of times we just look at, well, God hates this or God hates that, and like, really? Like he really hates it? Like, well, behind the hate that he has for it, there's a reason, there's consequences with your children, their children, what you lose out on. So understanding that, having that in place, and then going back to saying, I'm really lucky to live with this woman. Right.
Speaker 3:I'm really blessed to be able to have her for my wife. Yeah, she's got ADD which means that it's a lot more fun. She looks at me, I was talking about her and how our staff and our team jokes about her, but she'll joke about me, she'll bring up things, she's very spontaneous, spontaneous Sheila. So she'll interrupt in a meeting, I'll be going down a pathway you know, and she's like, hey I have an idea. And boom, just spontaneous like off the wall and the whole room will like laugh and like Pastor Sheila is on her role and give her permission and we love it and we've learned to embrace because she had amazing ideas.
Speaker 4:Right. But then I'll tell
Speaker 3:them. Spontaneous.
Speaker 4:You're boring without me.
Speaker 3:There you go. Yes. That's where I was going is that everyone also knows that's the other side of it that they I'm boring without her. And we're probably all boring without people like that. So when you get this fondness going and this optimistic positive perspective on one another, that's where health happens.
Speaker 3:That's where things can actually flourish in a marriage and a relationship.
Speaker 1:It's a mindset. I hear you calling us to a mindset where I think we get stuck being annoyed.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:Rather call it fun. Yep. Yep. Mean, I can relate. Like I like, okay, so we learned early on, I like neat, she likes clean.
Speaker 1:I like things put away. Like to walk into a room that's just open and ready to go. She wants to scrub, but she's not as neat as I am.
Speaker 2:My house can be a mess, but I'm scrubbing the oven because it needs to be Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whereas I will get to the oven, I don't see that. I see the room.
Speaker 2:The piles.
Speaker 3:You see the piles. Yep.
Speaker 1:But the mindset of stop living some people have lived twenty plus years in marriage annoyed with each other. Reframe it. Oh, that's Susan being fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1:You know, or whatever you wanna call it.
Speaker 4:That's her getting her stress out. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Hey, I she's putting her keep wanting to say it and I just need to ask somebody that's around me to look it up or whatever. But the verse on marriage, or on women I believe it is, that your prayers not be hindered. Do you remember?
Speaker 2:Yeah, think it might be husbands, somebody look
Speaker 3:it up
Speaker 2:for us. But husbands, if you're harsh with your wife, don't be harsh with your wife so your prayers are not hindered.
Speaker 3:Yes. And so again, just going back a little bit and applying this favor to a marriage, is that there's a certain attitude and behavior that will hinder the favor of God. It'll hinder the answer to your prayers, is my point. If we don't acknowledge that biblically, if we don't really, if we roll right past that, we won't correct our attitudes and our behaviors, and it will hinder what God wants to do in our marriages and in our life.
Speaker 1:I got it. You got it. One Peter three:seven, Susan, you're good. Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing you ready for this?
Speaker 3:Honor. Showing honor. Come on.
Speaker 4:Wow. There's an Come on.
Speaker 1:The Lord is in this. The Lord is in Showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 1:Since they are heirs with you of the grace of life so that your prayers may not be hindered. Bam. Come on.
Speaker 3:There you go.
Speaker 4:See, it's a teacher in you. You found
Speaker 2:the house.
Speaker 1:Drop the mic, walk out of the room.
Speaker 4:That was amazing. We need
Speaker 2:it. We need it.
Speaker 4:That's a good Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wanna one more topic, and I wanna talk about you're in Seattle. You're in Pacific Northwest. By way, when I think of Pacific Northwest, tell me if I'm right or wrong, and y'all may not even know this reference, but like I think of Twilight. That's what I think of. I think of them all running through the woods.
Speaker 2:You know the movies? No. You're probably way
Speaker 1:in We're a better place than so glad you I know this think of Twilight.
Speaker 2:It's vampires and werewolves and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Think of that movie.
Speaker 2:You're better for it.
Speaker 1:Don't watch But you're trying to Yeah.
Speaker 4:But that's the Northwest. I thought you're
Speaker 1:thinking I think it is.
Speaker 4:There's another one that was this episode up there. Probably. I don't know if I should say the name because
Speaker 2:I don't
Speaker 4:know if it's
Speaker 1:I good or know. I just derailed the whole thing. We were going so good. I know. But you're in an environment that, like you said, anti establishment.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I wanna I have one of the things I've just been so I've admired about you guys in that environment is you have a, what I call, a big, bold biblical worldview. You have a big biblical worldview, but it's a bold biblical worldview. Right. It's gotta be tough to speak on issues that are biblical in an environment that it's not politically correct to speak on those type of issues.
Speaker 1:Tell me about that.
Speaker 3:Well, Seattle is I don't know about the twilight thing. I can just tell you, I can just tell you it's a whole different world. And if you haven't lived in it, if you visit it, you'll pick up a little bit of it, but to live in it is so drastically different than parts of our nation where there are generational, there's generational Christianity. Generational Christianity is so powerful that the mannerisms, the politeness, some of the things that goes along with Christianity and going to church and moms and dads who taught basic behavior patterns Even is non
Speaker 4:in St. Louis, we lived there for eight years, it was mainly they would go, well, what parish do you go to? Very Catholic?
Speaker 1:Yep, right.
Speaker 4:And even that, you know, it was about church, which Seattle, they had said at one point, and I'd have to find out if it's still the same that it's one of the most smartest cities.
Speaker 3:Intellectually
Speaker 4:Intellectually.
Speaker 3:Educated.
Speaker 4:Educated. But he and I always said, but didn't know God. Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:And not wise. Not even wise about life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:In our world, Sheila's wearing a cap, I noticed, true north. Yes. And what that is, is it symbolizes a message that we have that is second nature now to our church, and the example that I gave with that when it originated was the North Star, which is if you have a GPS in your car, how does it get directions? It gets directions from True North. The North Star sets the direction for the boats that are out on the water, the planes that are flying in the air, and the cars that you drive.
Speaker 3:It all comes from one place, True North, and that's how it knows whether you are going east or west or south or north, and all comes from one place. And we trust it to the point where we get on airplanes and the pilot is actually taking his hands off of everything, flying by the true north directional direction that is set by the North Star. And we trust it so much, right? I mean we don't question it, society doesn't question it. If a pilot you know were to announce before we were to take off that, hey guys I know how to do this flight, I've done it a 100 times and so we're gonna go from Seattle to Dallas today without the instruments.
Speaker 3:I don't know about you, I'd get off the flight. I wouldn't because we've come to trust the instrument panel that's going to say, you know, that's gonna be set, preset for our direction. Now, why is that important? Because just like north is north, truth is truth. That's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so embedded in our culture of our church, we had to get to the point where the non compromising allegiance to a biblical worldview had to kick in, this is how we get there, is that we establish the dynamics of just like north is North, truth is truth. Yeah. And you compromise certain things out of your preference or your desire or your ability to think like, well, you know, I'm not gonna see God that way. I don't think God would do this. You know, people start rationalizing that and people do that everywhere.
Speaker 3:But in ministering in the Northwest, it became very necessary and essential to challenge concepts that would be otherwise compromised. And this is the way we've found to do it. I think that was your question. Yeah. Ministering in the Northwest, you just really have to go all in with saying, you know, a man is a man, a woman is a woman.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You have to go all in on saying, and that sounds maybe odd or funny, but in our world, the universities, I mean that was all questionable, especially in the last few years. Like, sexuality just like it's questionable. Parental authority, questionable. So where do you go to establish your worldview?
Speaker 3:Are you gonna meander about all of that, be uncertain about that, to each his own about that, or is there truth? And if truth is truth, then as God's people we are committed to what is true, not what is popular.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, for us in Texas here, we have become very, very committed to a big, bold biblical worldview. And you'd say, well, maybe you don't need it in Texas, but that's absolutely not the case for anybody that might be listening outside of where we live. You have a view of what reality is. I say we are one generation away from losing, completely losing the next generation. Mean, we're losing all sense and we're seeing it with our young people that for me, we have such a ministry to the young generation at Keystone.
Speaker 1:We really punch above our weight. It's a special grace that God has given us. And I just had just this burning conviction. If I don't help them see biblically on the issues of sex, help them see biblically on the issues of gender, Help them see biblically on just worldview is in contention with the culture that we have today. I know how I'm loving them.
Speaker 1:Don't know how there's no shepherding there. You're just really gathering a crowd. You're encouraging them. And again, I'm not talking about anybody else but me, but we felt absolutely committed. And the fruit has not been an army of haters.
Speaker 1:The fruit has not been we shrunk. Right. The fruit is we grew. The fruit is we're more loving. Right.
Speaker 1:The fruit is our students are more engaging. It's been incredible. Absolutely. As a church, even in our schools with the school boards, we've seen all the things you've seen on the news with stuff getting into the libraries of schools. It was happening here in Texas.
Speaker 1:And people, great committed Christians, they engaged and they take heat. I mean, meeting they're taking heat. And so for our church to understand, hey, here's where we are, biblical worldview. And on the sexuality thing, what we've discovered is that clarity that you're talking about is kindness. Yes.
Speaker 1:Than the bait and switch. Oh, you're accepted. Oh, you're loved. And they're going, wait, they're okay with And then they get so deep in and then you switch it on them. Oh, now you can't do this.
Speaker 1:Oh, now you can't do that. That's actually worse in my experience as opposed to here's our big biblical worldview. And we've had people, they've walked with us and they said, you know, I think I disagree with you on this, that and the other, but man, I'm glad I can be here and attend. And I say, let's just keep walking, Steve, let's just keep talking and believe God has a plan for your life.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's powerful. So good. Thank you so much just for your wisdom and we could go on for hours.
Speaker 1:I know,
Speaker 2:stop me. Know, I want to, we want to, but we just appreciate who you are and appreciate God's work in your life and the kingdom builders that you truly are as people, a family and a church.
Speaker 1:You know, just to put a cap on, I just wanna affirm the visions that God has given you. You know, think about the church that you're building. A church that loves the word of God, a church that loves the ways of God, a church that builds families with the right mentality, not just grip hard and endure it, but has a right mindset. And then a church is great that honors one another. I mean, think about it, rather than dishonor, we're honoring kids, we're honoring grandparents, we're honoring the CEO, we're honoring the person cleaning the restroom.
Speaker 1:Honor everywhere. How is that a bad thing? And I just want to thank you for this fruit and thank you for your fruitfulness. And I I know you've been a gift to us in the overflow today. So, hey, let's let this message overflow and let's keep the conversation going.
Speaker 1:Thank you for being with us today. We love very much.
Speaker 4:Being with you.