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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
I will never ever post on Instagram again because he's now weaponizing my life.
Voiceover Artist:In a world of hurt and pain, we find our way to break the chain. A caring heart, a guiding light, lead us through the darkest night with preservation in our soul, we'll rescue those who've lost control. Escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. To the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKenney and Padida Jaffari.
Jon Mckenney:Padideh, it's good to see you again. It's good to see your face. That's what I say every time.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. It's good to see you too, bestie.
Jon Mckenney:How are you doing?
Padideh Jafari:I'm doing well. Just recovering still from my ankle injury, but God has been good to me. I cannot complain.
Jon Mckenney:Wonderful. I'm getting over my Lyme. I'm about a month and a half since treatment, and I call myself about 80% better for the most part. I still have what I call energy issues, which are some days I just I'm done at noon, and I can't I can't function so much more. You know what was really surprising with the Lyme disease, Padida?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. What was
Jon Mckenney:What was really surprise the thing that was really surprising about the Lyme disease was the brain fog.
Padideh Jafari:Oh gosh.
Jon Mckenney:You ever had brain fog before?
Padideh Jafari:Yes. In perimenopause last year, remember I kept talking about that on this recording, you get brain fog, and it's it's awful. You you can't remember what you can't remember.
Jon Mckenney:It's just Sometimes you you you're stuck in the middle of a sentence, and you can't remember something specific or remember where you were going, and that was that was a real surprise. And that that kinda lingers a little bit. Hopefully hopefully, it doesn't affect our podcast today.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. Yes. Yes. So we're talking about something very, very important today. What's our topic today?
Jon Mckenney:So our topic today is talking about when your kids come back. And let's let's kinda set this up a little bit so you understand. There are there are a couple of different kinds of situations with children. One is where your kids are much younger, and either they get transferred from one spouse to the other, maybe narcissist spouse to the healthy spouse. But what we're talking about today are more kids are kind of old enough to know what's going on, old enough to figure out what's going on.
Jon Mckenney:We'd call them adult children in some respects. Maybe that's 15, maybe that's 16, maybe it's 14, maybe it's 25, maybe it's 30. But we're gonna talk about when kids come back to you after you've been estranged. We talk some about parental alienation. And in parental alienation, your narcissist speaks so badly about you over a what is normally a long period of time.
Jon Mckenney:It's not it's not like they have one conversation and and tell your kid that you're a shithead, and it ends right there. Usually, it's more like, the jagged stone thrown into a river, and as the water goes over it over time, those jagged edges become kinda smoothed out, and the rocks become rounded and smooth on the other side. It's really more like that. It happens over a period of time where your kids have been alienated from you, and then suddenly, for whatever reason, they show back up in your life. Yep.
Jon Mckenney:So I have been I've got four children. I have been estranged from all four of them at some point in time. My oldest, I had a relationship with for about a year. Then she kinda went off the deep end and said, see you. See you never, I think were her exact words.
Jon Mckenney:And I wasn't then in touch with her for another four years until just recently, maybe in the last three months or so. My youngest also was estranged for me as well, and she basically told me upfront she didn't wanna didn't wanna talk about anything that happened. She was gone for maybe three or four months, maybe even six. It could have been as long as that. That was this is really early on now, six years ago.
Jon Mckenney:And then said, you know what? I I kinda want want back into your life and back into you into relationship with you. And then the two in the middle are still I'm still estranged from, and I've had no real conversation with one of them at all since he found out we were going to get divorced. And the other one had one conversation with me and has never been back since. So I've messaged here and there.
Jon Mckenney:I've tried to give them their space. But interestingly enough, I think that there are when when your child suffers from parental alienation, you have to understand what you're working against. It's not just a bad conversation, but it's a lifetime of speaking badly about you. So I don't feel like and I've I've tried this. There's no one conversation that is gonna fix the problem.
Jon Mckenney:Padeeta, have you ever been in a situation like this with anybody you know where you had had had those issues?
Padideh Jafari:Well, so I have three adult stepchildren. I don't have children of my own, but I will say that the alienation started the minute that the child is born. They I agree. They triangulate. So by the time that you get divorced, whenever that is, they've been alienated from you your whole life.
Padideh Jafari:The only thing that you don't know is that you don't know this.
Jon Mckenney:That's exactly true. Absolutely did not understand that I was I'd been alienated.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. And the reason and like, because you and I are best friends, I know this about your case as well, but I also know it from clients. Like they've been alienated when the child was born because what the narcissist will do is the narcissist will speak bad or undermine or whatever it is or disrespect. And the child learns that through the actions, right? They say children learn through actions, not through words.
Padideh Jafari:And so by the time you go get divorced, because you're like had enough or you're suicidal, and like you said, it was either me living or me dying, and I chose life for myself.
Jon Mckenney:And
Padideh Jafari:so the child is definitely gonna go with the narcissist because A, they don't wanna disappoint that parent and they don't want the repercussions of what that looks like. And B, they're already thinking, well, daddy was a bad person, mommy was a bad person. And so they already were like brainwashed to learn that early on. So that's what I know as a practitioner, I haven't seen that, but I will give you one example later on in this podcast. But but I wanna know from you, like, I know all all four children of yours reacted differently to the divorce.
Padideh Jafari:So do you wanna go through all of, like, how they acted?
Jon Mckenney:Yeah. Well, two are are are just done. You know? They're they're still estranged, and and my framework for kinda how to approach this actually comes from the holy scriptures. Puneet and I both said we're we're Christians, and we're not preachy, but this is kind of our frame of reference.
Jon Mckenney:So there's a passage in the scriptures that is about the prodigal son, and basically this son of a wealthy landowner shows up to his dad one day and says, By the way, I want the money you'd give me when you're dead. I want my inheritance now. And by some act of God, for whatever reason, the father decides to give it to him, and the son goes out and squanders the cash. He's out off partying and banging whatever he can bang and smoking whatever he can smoke and drinking whatever he can drink, and he has this basically a party time in life. Then the cash runs out, and he winds up getting a job.
Jon Mckenney:In the scriptures, it talks about him feeding the pigs, and he's got pig slop going on and stuff like that, and he has this moment of realization. It says, you know, he he's he's realizing that he's he's feeding feeding the pigs and pig slop, and and he he goes, you know what? I'd be better off as a servant in my dad's house than than doing what I'm doing here. So he decides he's gonna go back to dear old dad and say, hey. Can I work at your place?
Jon Mckenney:And it says and and in this moment, the scriptures say, and then he came to his senses. Really important phrase there. So the boy goes back, and dear old dad is actually kinda waiting down at the end of the driveway for his kid to come back, kinda run towards him with open arms, and instead of making him a servant, he makes him a son again, and that's the end of the story. And I like to think that that with narcissists and parental alienation, the kids are away kinda like that prodigal son, and they gotta go figure some stuff out when they come back. And I think there are different levels of having figured it out.
Jon Mckenney:And with my kids, the two that have returned, I would tell you that I don't think they've got a lot of it figured out. They still have very close relationship with their mother. They still refused really to talk to me much about the divorce in my perspective. They're not interested in my perspective. And if they come back without a, you know, coming back to your senses moment, it may not be the grand reunion that you had hoped for.
Jon Mckenney:And I to tell you, Padilla, think from my perspective, while I'm glad I'm talking to two of them, it's very hard some days because I don't think they have a whole lot of understanding about what really went on in their own home. And I and and I, again, I I I don't fault them for that. They they were raised in this. So it's it's, again, like a stone in the river or a frog in the kettle. The heat gets turned up, and you realize you're in the kettle one day, but you don't necessarily feel the heat.
Jon Mckenney:And I don't think they've really realized so much what the kettle was like. So that can be difficult.
Padideh Jafari:Right. You know, we have a lot of discussions about this obviously offline. And my thing is this, and maybe this is because I don't have biological children. I don't know if it's our place to really talk to them about the other parent and what happened is they are children, even if they're 50 years old, they're still your kid. And I think it's just important to restart your relationship with them and say, you know, whatever happened in the past, that's between mom and I or dad and I, but I really want to have a meaningful relationship with you going forward.
Padideh Jafari:And one thing I know John, never do is you never talk bad about their mom. My husband is the same, he never talks bad about his ex wife. They've even said that, the boys have actually said that to us. And they've said, they say, you guys never speak bad about her. But I will tell you this, the middle one that went away for college, he came back and he was living with his mom for about six months and he couldn't find a job.
Padideh Jafari:We were trying to help him, but he's a little bit stubborn in the sense that, he thinks he knows it all, which if you have a kid like that, you understand. And he started really, she started to brainwash him again and brainwash him again. And he wrote this, I think four page letter, I send it to John and talking about how awful my husband was and how now his mom has got his back and all this stuff, which is interesting because before he went away to college, he told us, he said, once I'm done with college, I'll never move back to her house and she will never see me getting married or my kids. Like he was very firm on, like, I want nothing to do with my mom after I graduate. And he went away.
Padideh Jafari:He was like much further away from both of us, but we'd go visit and everything. But now that six months he was in her home, he was singing different tune and wrote this four page letter. Long story short, once he got the job and everything, he came back and he didn't apologize, but he said, You know, I was under a lot of stress. But the things that were in that letter, I sent it to John and actually sent it to my sister. It sounded like her.
Padideh Jafari:It sounded like the mother was writing this about how awful my husband is. And so what I want to tell you is never during this process did we give up on him. Never during this very difficult time of trying to figure out, okay, what do we do? Did we give up on him knowing that the narcissist was behind this all along? And John gave my husband actually a really good idea.
Padideh Jafari:He said, next time you talk to him, I want you to do either FaceTime or I want you to go back. I don't wanna say where he lives, but I want you to go back there, have your husband fly back there and talk to him face to face. And John, I don't think I've ever thanked you enough. That was such good nugget of wisdom because once my husband saw him on FaceTime, and I remember because he I didn't wanna be in the room, but I remember I said, I just wanted to say hi to him, but he was like resting on a pillow in his bed. But like once my husband saw him, he like broke down and then the son broke down too.
Padideh Jafari:And he was like, you know, dad, I just want you to like, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so it just broke the ice. But to John's point, every kid is different and you have to treat them differently. But I wanna say one thing, John told me this and he said this on the podcast. He said, when he decided to get divorced from your ex wife, his ex wife, she said, One of our children will never talk to you again.
Padideh Jafari:So talk to me about that because that ended up becoming true.
Jon Mckenney:Yeah. That's my son, and that may very well be true. I tried to reach out to each of the kids. When I told my ex I wanted a divorce, and I wanted a conversation with them to at least give them kind of a bird's eye view of my perspective on it. Again, Padilla says you don't speak badly of another person.
Jon Mckenney:I have taken that to heart and say macro view of why I was leaving. I felt like they deserved an explanation. I reached out to him and asked him if we could talk, and he continued to ignore me and put me off. And then eventually said, you know what? When I'm ready to have a conversation with you, I'll let you know.
Jon Mckenney:That was six years ago, more than six years ago now. Six and a half, almost seven. So I don't I don't necessarily have a lot of hope for that relationship or the the other child necessarily that's estranged from me. But I think you I think your kids can come back as adults, and they can come back with some understanding. I've had other friends who were children of narcissists who ultimately realized how narcissistic their parent was and how this parent had spoken badly and set up this bad narrative about the healthy parent.
Jon Mckenney:And it can take ten or twenty years. This friend of mine, Dave, God rest his soul, he's no longer with us, but he'd been out of estranged from relationship with his dad for years and thought his dad was always the schmuck. And over time, he realized what was going on with his mother and ultimately had very little relationship with her and went back to his dad. With this understanding, he came to his senses, and their relationship changed. I've always wanted to be the dad who was kind of waiting down by the driveway with open arms, and I've definitely strived to do that and think I've done it.
Jon Mckenney:Here's the hard part. Sometimes the kids come back without that understanding, and I would tell you that that's where I think both of my children are. And that means they're still living out they they want a relationship with you in some kind of way, but they're still living out this narrative of the ex. Just like Padilla talked about with her stepson, he'd gone off to school. He figured out what was going on, and then when he was back with her again, the narrative began to surface, and he began to act out with his father saying, you're this, this, this, and this, which was just wholly untrue.
Jon Mckenney:And that can be the environment you live in when you when you're waiting at the the end of the driveway waiting for your kids. I will tell you that it's almost a position of putting yourself in the way of narcissistic abuse again. Your your your kids
Padideh Jafari:100%.
Jon Mckenney:When they live when they live this out, they are living out the the narrative of your narcissist ex, and they're giving you back what your narcissist ex would give you. In our last pod podcast, we talked about how narcissists use you. They don't they don't love you. They love your things. They love what you can do for them.
Jon Mckenney:And with my two children who have returned to me, I would tell you that I I I think I feel a whole lot more of that than absolutely anything else. They're not so interested in me as a person. When I was sick, I started the podcast talking about Lyme disease. I had Lyme disease this summer and another coinfection. I I kinda figured that out.
Jon Mckenney:And for Father's Day, my my oldest daughter had said she wanted to take me to dinner, and the first words out of her mouth when I told her I was sick with Lyme disease was, are you contagious? Which was interesting. And I'm I didn't give her a smart ass response, but I wanted to go, oh, oh, yeah. Absolutely. I show up for dinner just so I can contaminate you with whatever sickness I've got.
Padideh Jafari:Right? And everyone in the restaurant too, by the way. That's what I'm gonna do.
Jon Mckenney:Yeah. So so but it was, again, it was all about her. And she didn't ever really ask me how I was doing during that conversation. She it's me asking questions and her responding. She didn't ask me any questions.
Jon Mckenney:And most of the time, they're in touch. They need something.
Padideh Jafari:100%.
Jon Mckenney:100%. Using you, not loving you. My my youngest daughter, when she contacts me, she doesn't even say hello on the phone. She go I'll go, hello? She go, I'm at the car dealership, and, you know, I've got some a situation with some tires here, and I'm like, how are you doing?
Jon Mckenney:You know, she does she doesn't say hello most of the time when she when she even calls me.
Padideh Jafari:I'm sorry. I know you can't see me, but my mouth just dropped to
Jon Mckenney:the floor. I can see you.
Padideh Jafari:I know you can see me, but our listeners I can't like mean, that is just rude.
Jon Mckenney:It is rude.
Padideh Jafari:And how old is she?
Jon Mckenney:25.
Padideh Jafari:So so my youngest son, when he texts me, he says, hey. And I literally every time he says, hey, I say, I'm not a horse. I don't know why you say, hey. Hey is for horses. And then he says, l o l.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, hi.
Jon Mckenney:I'd be happy I'd be happy with hey.
Padideh Jafari:Because because because he says, hi, and then he's asking for something. And you know what? I did not realize this until you just said this, John. I think this is why my husband gets upset, and I don't really realize it. Again, I'm not a biological mom.
Padideh Jafari:He says they only want me for an ATM machine. And I don't realize how painful that is as a man to just be wanted. And they only call the older one's gotten a little bit better because he's 27. Then now he just texts me when he wants something, but it's like the two other two, dad, I need this. Dad, I need that.
Padideh Jafari:And it's one thing when your kids are younger, obviously. And it's one thing when they're in college and they need, you know but it's always it's like incessantly incessantly that way, John. So I can imagine how frustrating that must be for you.
Jon Mckenney:Well, when it's all there is Yes. That it's it's it's deeply frustrating and actually deeply hurtful. It's like, okay. So all you you all you want is car advice for me, you know, or you want me to help you with this? You want me to help you move?
Jon Mckenney:You want You want me to take this or take that? And that's ultimately what it's been. So with kids who have come to their senses, I think there's more to relationship. Think you can have a healthier relationship. They understand what you've been through.
Jon Mckenney:There's some compassion perhaps towards you for what you've you've you've been through with them. They have seen the narcissistic traits of your ex, and and you live out in in a relationship of meaning. But when when they come back and they don't have this understanding, it is 100 putting yourself in the way of abuse by extension, and it's very difficult.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, I definitely saw that last year when we got the letter. I will be honest with you, my husband did not to this day read the letter. He said that if he reads the letter, it will probably make him go back to drinking. My husband's fourteen years sober, and he said, after everything I've done, like, I had to do it as a father, but after every abuse I've been through with their mother, and now for this child, and we paid for all of their schooling, all of their college, their tuition, their food, their board, everything.
Padideh Jafari:Books, everything.
Jon Mckenney:It's a complete lack of gratitude also.
Padideh Jafari:And and this particular child went off to Spain the whole junior year, and we paid for that. So while we were working our tails off in Southern California, where we live and work, he was off to Spain and then he writes this letter because he can't get a job and he's living with his mom. All that to say is I had to paraphrase, and John knows this, I had to paraphrase the letter for him because that's how hurtful it was for him. And in the letter, the child actually gaslit or was trying to gaslight my husband and say, I know you think I should be grateful. Like that's gaslighting because you should be grateful no matter what, right?
Jon Mckenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:And so even when John, I think I sent you the letter, you said, Your husband doesn't need to talk
Jon Mckenney:to this kid ever again, or
Padideh Jafari:something like But slowly, other things that you said, we did because we respect you and we know you're a great father. And so now we're back on track with him knowing that, like, there's still a exclamation point knowing that he can turn on us or turn on my husband at any point.
Jon Mckenney:Absolutely. And it makes you wary of relationship with a kid. It makes you wary of what you say. Because I'm like, If I'm talking to her, all this is going back to the ex? Absolutely.
Jon Mckenney:You have to watch what you say because anything you say can and will be used against you by the narcissist ex. After I got married, or after I got divorced, maybe two years later, got a car. And I knew I didn't tell anybody in my family that I got a car. I didn't post it on social media in any kind of way, and I didn't want to. Why?
Jon Mckenney:Because I know it would be, dad's just selfish. All he does is spend money on himself, because that's the mantra of my She narcissist wants to control my finances and still would like to, and she would do it vicariously through my kids. Now, as the kids have gotten out of college and things, I've been able to eliminate the ATM. I literally had my youngest daughter call me up one day and she said, You need to buy me a passport. I go, Why do I need to buy you a passport?
Jon Mckenney:Well, I'm graduating in May and in August. I'm going to be going to Mexico with some friends, and I'm going to need a passport, and you need to buy me one. And I go, And you think this is my responsibility because why? Well, I went on a mission trip some years back, and you got passports for the other three kids, and they were a little older when they went. So they were ten year passports.
Jon Mckenney:And since I was a kid, they only gave me a five year passport, so you owe me a passport. And I'm like, You're fricking out of your mind. Going to Mexico after you graduate? Guess what? That's on you.
Jon Mckenney:I'm not buying your passport. Well But again, this is their mentality. They think that you just need to give to them. You just need to take care of absolutely every little thing. There's no gratitude in it whatsoever, and it is abuse by extension when you open yourself up to kids who do not have this understanding of what took place.
Jon Mckenney:That being said, it It is a constant battle and requires you to constantly remind yourself that they are frog in the kettle, that they were raised with this stuff with the narcissist, that they are playing out the narcissist narrative, and that really what this is that you're hearing is the narcissist's words and not theirs.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. A 100%. Absolutely. And and they should still be grateful even though you're their parent. They should still say thank you.
Padideh Jafari:They should say, dad, you know what? I really would like you. Could you please could you please help me with it? They don't come at it that way, John.
Jon Mckenney:Not at all.
Padideh Jafari:Kids kids with narcissistic abusive parents, they feel entitled because that is what the narcissist is like. They're entitled to your soul. They're entitled to your whole being. They're users. So they teach their child to be a user.
Padideh Jafari:They
Jon Mckenney:teach Absolutely
Padideh Jafari:their child to be a user instead of saying, dad, you know what? And don't give me the whole rationale, but just say, dad, you know what? Could you could you just contribute? I'm really having a hard time, and I really would like to instead of getting me maybe a birthday gift this year or Christmas gift, can you just help me with this? I think that would be a different conversation Totally.
Padideh Jafari:You would have because you were like, literally, I'm not just saying this, John is one of the kindest, nicest, most generous people I know, but it's they they come at you, and you feel like you're back in the narcissistic web.
Jon Mckenney:Mhmm. Absolutely. Abs absolutely. Like, I know when I first when I first divorced, my ex would text me. Of course, the kids were still in college by then.
Jon Mckenney:And she would go, okay. By the way, I need $800 from you. I'm like, what do you need $800 from me? Well, I spent this on the kids, and I need $800 So the first one, I paid, which was dumb of me. I didn't challenge it.
Jon Mckenney:But the second one, I go, Shit, again, dollars 900. I need $900 from you. And I said, What's this for? Well, the kids needed this, this, this, this, and this. Now, my kids were over 18, so I paid no child support for them.
Jon Mckenney:I committed to paying for college, and she would come at me with these bills, and I would go, Okay. The ATM days are over. First off, you will not be speaking for my children anymore. If they need money for something, they will tell me themselves. Second, this is shared responsibility, and I will have a receipt for absolutely everything that gets spent, you will be paying half of it.
Jon Mckenney:This is not just my responsibility. We are divorced. We're fiftyfifty on this stuff. I committed to the college stuff. The rest of it, you're a parent too.
Jon Mckenney:You're gonna be spending 50% of that as well. But here's the other thing. I will not pay. I will not pay a dime towards anything that I'm not consulting on upfront. 100%.
Jon Mckenney:You will not you will not just go and spend money and look over to me like, I'm gonna just dispense cash for you for all of these receipts. Because who knows who the hell whether she's holding receipts back or not, she may give me receipts for $800 or something like that when it's really half the bill instead of all or all the bill instead of half. So you just can't tell with them. So I got myself out of that picture with her. I made my kids, if they needed money, they had to be in touch with me directly.
Jon Mckenney:But still on the other side of it, their model for this, the model of how they're going to treat you is the narcissist. It will Yes. And it will require every ounce of love, every ounce of patience, every ounce of compassion, every ounce of remembering that these are your narcissist's words and not your kids when you're inside a relationship like this.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, I will tell you, my husband told me when that letter came, he said, I want nothing to do with this child anymore. I mean, he was done done. What I tell you, he was done done. And I said, let me, you know, let me let me read it. Let me digest it.
Padideh Jafari:I promise you, John, and you know this, for three nights, I did not sleep. I was crying. I bet. I was upset. I was praying to God.
Padideh Jafari:I was like, what did we do wrong? Because I've been in their life for almost eight years. So I saw what my husband It wasn't my husband telling me what he did. I saw the sacrifices he made. And so I just got a book, by the way, called Doing Life with Keeping Your Mouth Shut, and the Welcome Mat Out.
Padideh Jafari:I just got this book. So if anybody wants this book,
Jon Mckenney:That's get this the challenge. The title says the challenge. Right? Yes. So the challenge is to be the prodigal father, right, whose kid has wandered off and has come back, and to be this loving father who embraces them.
Jon Mckenney:But when they treat you like this, when they treat you with the abuse by extension from the narcissist, you feel like you don't wanna be around them.
Padideh Jafari:Well, they're they're they're the flying monkeys. Right? We always we've talked about this before. They're the flying monkeys of the narcissist. The disappointing thing about this middle child was that he had figured it out.
Padideh Jafari:And when we took him to college, because we took him to see a couple colleges and then, you know, all this stuff, he knew. So it's like after that and then four years of college and dad, you know, it's again, it's not all about paying, but we were there emotionally for him when he was breaking up with girlfriends. We we had to go all the way to the, you know, the the East Coast when, you know, things were falling apart. It was all the things that we had done, we weren't keeping tabs. We were just like, we did this because we're your parents.
Padideh Jafari:And that's what parents are supposed to do. But to get this letter was such a slap in the face. And my husband said, I want nothing to do with him. And I said, Nope, nope, we're gonna swallow our pride in our ego, and we're gonna realize that this is from the narcissist. I mean, you said, first thing you said, John, when you read the letter, you said, Okay, this is his ex wife talking.
Padideh Jafari:Absolutely. My sissy said the same thing. This is his ex wife. And so little bit by little bit, we not saying anything bad about their mom, but just said, okay, you know what? I'm gonna do better.
Padideh Jafari:My husband literally said, I'm gonna do better. Now when we call him, he's like, dad, I'm busy. I'm working, you know, because he's on, like, a different coast. But but to me, that was like, wow. You know, she she got in six months, she got her fingers into you, her nails into you.
Jon Mckenney:Got her claws in. Yep.
Padideh Jafari:Got her claws in. And but I don't blame the child. I mean, he's still a child even though he's, like, in his early twenties. He's still a child, and he's a product of this, I hate to say it, but this awful narcissist. Right?
Jon Mckenney:Absolutely. Well, and and again, that just goes to show you how easily the kids can be manipulated back into something as well. But John
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon Mckenney:John had it spot on. You know? It's hard enough to take abuse from your narcissist, but to have their words come back at you from your children and your kids act like they're elevated, and they're judging you, every action you do with the attitudes of your narcissist ex is ridiculously hard, and the emotion John had is valid. It's, I don't wanna be around you. This is not the grand reunion I would like for it to have been.
Jon Mckenney:I would've loved for you to come back where you came to your senses and you go, You know what? I effed up. I should never have done this. I understand what the narcissist has done to me somewhat, at least. I understand now what they've done to you, and we can meet, and I'm gonna love you instead of using you, but that's not always the case.
Jon Mckenney:Your kids can come back and continue to abuse you and treat you like all you are is an ATM or a car repairman.
Padideh Jafari:Well, know what, one of the things in the letter which I thought was interesting, I have my own private social media, private Instagram, which I barely And ever so the three boys see my Instagram. And one of the things that we haven't traveled much just because we're both very, very busy, I had put my dog, my rescue dog from the LA wildfires in my Tesla when I got my Tesla. Know, John, you were here two years ago. And he said, And my stepmom got a new Tesla. By the way, what is that to do about you?
Padideh Jafari:Like, you also have a car. Your mom has two cars. What like, I'm not supposed to have a car. You know what I did after that? I actually I actually went back, archived a bunch of my things on Instagram, and I told my husband, I will never ever post on Instagram again because he's now weaponizing my life.
Padideh Jafari:Like, I'm an attorney, and I bought a test, and I wanted this cherry red Tesla for three years before I even got one. And John, you were here actually. We had our podcast launch party two years ago, and John was actually here when I went to pick up my car. Yep. And he actually weaponized my own car and said, well, you've got money for this.
Padideh Jafari:And it's like, well, when have you asked for money and we have not given you money? And so it was all the things, you know, and it was like, wow. For three days, I literally cried, wept, sobbed, wasn't eat I mean, I was so distraught because I was like, wow, you know, like I thought he was gonna graduate and be And he was like at the graduation and the lunch we had for him and all the things, like he was very happy and thankful, but it was when he went to live with her for six months and couldn't find a job himself because he wasn't listening to our advice, that he was miserable, and now that he has a job, he's like, oh, no. Everything's back. And it's like, no.
Padideh Jafari:That letter will be in my mind for the rest of my life. Like
Jon Mckenney:When it makes you wanna guard yourself and abs look. I don't I
Padideh Jafari:you know, I'm A 100%.
Jon Mckenney:Pretty well when it comes to things I'm doing on the whole, I'm I'm pretty largely radio silent on on on social media. And the other thing I did was I actually finally, this past year, I blocked anybody, any of my family members I was not in contact with, who I had to go no contact with. That included kids who it'll include kids who've chosen not to have a relationship with me. And I decided and my oldest, when she came back to me, said, you know, why did you delete me off Facebook? Why did you unfriend me?
Jon Mckenney:And why did you do the same to your parents and to the other kids? And I said, I didn't do it to everybody. I said, I didn't do it to my youngest because she's been in relationship with me. Although it feels strange sometimes, she can have a window into my life. I said, But I decided about a year ago, maybe not even that long ago, that anybody anybody in my life who acted like they didn't really want a relationship with me did not deserve a window into my life on social media, and I blocked everybody that did that.
Padideh Jafari:Great. That's great response.
Jon Mckenney:So I said, if you want a relationship with me, then I'm happy to go add you back, but I'm not in touch with my parents. I'm not in touch with the other two kids, and they're not going to have a window into my life and report back so that so that this narrative can continue because anything you say, anything that you do will be redefined by the narcissist. I'll tell you a story. So when when I was still married to my narcissist ex, she had we we we had a hot tub out back, and we were having some conversations. She goes, oh, I'm so mad.
Jon Mckenney:I'm I'm just so angry. I said, why are you angry? My father and now mind you, mom was a covert narcissist and acted out against dad, spoke badly against dad. So my my ex inherited the covert narcissism from her mother. She goes, I'm so mad at my father.
Jon Mckenney:Why are you mad at your father? He got a timeshare in Branson, Missouri. Okay. Why is that? That's a problem.
Jon Mckenney:Why? He's so selfish. All he does is spend money on himself. And I said, so you think he's going to Branson by himself? No.
Jon Mckenney:You think he might be taking your mother out to Branson? Probably. Do you think he might even ask our family to go to Branson sometimes or your brother's family? Maybe. So how is this being being spent on himself?
Jon Mckenney:Well, that's all he does. That's all he does in life. He always he only spends time on spends money on himself. He you know, he's a farmer. He has to have the newest equipment all the time.
Jon Mckenney:And I said, so he's a farmer? Yes. He like, he got a new combine. He gets a new combine every year. And I said, doesn't he have, like, thousands of acres?
Jon Mckenney:Yes. And I said, maybe that's his way of keeping it from breaking down. And these are business expenses. These are not home expenses. So you ought to understand.
Jon Mckenney:She was just she couldn't get she couldn't get out of it and couldn't couldn't undo it in her head because her mother had bad mouthed her father. Her mother had controlled the narrative, and dad couldn't even do something nice. And by the way, he did invite his wife out to Branson. He did invite her brothers and their family out to Branson. He did invite my ex and our family out to Branson.
Jon Mckenney:Of course he did. Right. Because it was the narrative of the ex. Fast forward about ten years, and my youngest daughter says, I'd like to talk to you for a minute. I said, okay.
Jon Mckenney:She says and we we go sit down out. I got a pickup truck, and there are a couple of old VWs and and my ex's car. And we sit on the tailgate of the pickup truck, and she says, I understand that you spend all our family's money on your cars. And I said, excuse me? Yes.
Jon Mckenney:You spend all our family's money on your cars. And I said, really? I said, how why do you say that? Well, that's what that's what that's what mom says. You know?
Jon Mckenney:You spend all all your you spend all our family's money on your cars. And I said, okay. Let's do some math. Can we do some math?
Padideh Jafari:And this when you were married.
Jon Mckenney:So This is when I was married. Is my 17 year old.
Padideh Jafari:Okay.
Jon Mckenney:So ultimate in disrespect, but I'm like, I'm I'm taking goes, okay. We're gonna do a little math here. I go, so I bought my car for $1,200, my old VW, and I I worked on some other cars and got paid to do it, and I put a new motor in it, and I traded some other work to go get the car painted. So the car I had really cost me very little money. My cost on the car was about $2,000 of our money, and I've been driving it for the last five years.
Jon Mckenney:And I said to her, so this truck we're sitting on right here who who drives a truck right now? Well, kids do. Okay. So that's the kids' car. So who drove the truck before you guys were driving?
Jon Mckenney:Well, mom did. That was mom's car. She was driving it around. Okay. Well, that truck cost $15,000.
Jon Mckenney:And your mother got the new car, and I got the old one that I have to work on, which I enjoy, which is fine, but my car was far less expensive. I said, now we've got a minivan over there. And do you know what that cost? No. That was $23,000.
Jon Mckenney:Okay. So on the two cars that your mother has driven over the last x number of years, we're at $38,000. And mine, we're total for the cars I've had, we're at 8. So tell me whose whose money is getting spent on cars? And it occurred to me again, these things come directly from the narcissist.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon Mckenney:Absolutely. When you're in a situation like this where your kids come back and they don't have this understanding, it will feel like you're abused, and it will take every ounce of your energy to remember a couple of things. One, that you still love them because like John My husband. Yeah. He didn't feel like being around him, and I get that.
Jon Mckenney:When you're around somebody who all they do is call you when they need something, ask for ask for cash.
Padideh Jafari:Count your money that you're working hard for. This is your money.
Jon Mckenney:Yep. That it's very hard to be around people like that. Very hard to be around them. When they don't care about you, but they care about your cash and the things that you can do for them, it's just very difficult. And there's a lot of that in this generation anyways.
Jon Mckenney:This generation, the younger generation is rather entitled anyhow, so you see a lot of it anyways as part of narcissism too. But with narcissism, it maybe turned up a notch. So in order to be in relationship with your kids, it will take every ounce of energy to stand at the end driveway of and to wait with open arms and to continue to love them when you continue to be beat over the head with the bat your narcissist used to take to you. It's difficult. Reunion is not what you hope for.
Jon Mckenney:The reunion is not what you expect, And it will take all of your energy to remember the love you have for them and to remember that what you hear out of their mouths is actually what your narcissist would say and not their own words.
Padideh Jafari:Well, we have the benefit that this, I don't wanna say benefit, but we have the ability because this child is across the state. My husband does, one of the things that they did was they put every Sunday, they will check-in with each other and have a call and do FaceTime or have a call, just check-in. Well, now because of work, he's been busy on the weekends. He's like relaxing or whatever, but literally for us, I will be honest with you, John, it's an exclamation point. It's like, now we know what we know and we can't unknow what we know.
Padideh Jafari:And so we're like, we just know, like no more telling. I mean, were, again, we don't travel much. We travel within The States, but we don't go internationally. So we're not posting, we're not telling, we're not telling about our cars. Even told my husband, you know, I shouldn't have put my dog inside my Tesla to be like, oh, look.
Padideh Jafari:You know, River's driving the Tesla or something. I was trying to be cheeky about it. I said, nothing, nothing. And I I told him actually because last night, we were at Gypsy King's concert. I said, you know, I'd really like to post this on my stories, but I'm afraid that your son's gonna say, oh, they've got money for a concert.
Padideh Jafari:How dare they?
Jon Mckenney:Absolutely. Even though Miranda warning. Anything you can and say will be used against you.
Padideh Jafari:Well, even though he goes to concerts, he does all that. He usually, he lives a full life. Okay? But I said I might start, like, another one just for my real friends and, like, my family, like, my mom and my sister, they kinda, like, that's how we share information. And so my husband said, Yeah, maybe you wanna do that because if he's still following you, because he loves me, I know that he loves me, but he's an extension of his mother and he's her flying monkey now.
Padideh Jafari:Now when he moves out and gets his own place, that might be another story, but our hearts were literally broken. And I think I called you several times just in tears because I was like, He was the good one. He was the one that got it. Like the oldest one is a 100% estranged from her, but I was like, He was the good one. Like he was the one that knew.
Padideh Jafari:He was the one that was smart and all this stuff. And you kept saying like, You just gotta forgive, let go. And I will tell you that, like you said, if God forbid something happens to my husband, I don't think that the middle one, honest to God, I don't think he would care. He's kind of like, he just has used him for eight years, I've watched this happen, and if we don't give the money that we're bad parents, how come so and so's parents do, that manipulation has, I mean, turned him probably into a narcissist as well. And he's a malignant, I would say he would, he's very overt about, and he thinks he's talking for his other two brothers and he's not because we've got great relationships with those two.
Padideh Jafari:Like the oldest I'm friends with, he texts me, we talk, he doesn't ask for money, he doesn't ask for anything. We're always the one that's like, No, we wanna help this and that. We're just gonna do as the Lord reveals what to do, we'll do, but we're not gonna go out of our way, but we're also not gonna give him information, right, to go back to his mom with info.
Jon Mckenney:Well, it's very difficult when everything that happens in your life gets reframed by the narcissist into something negative. I, you know, I I I get I'm here here's here's another thing. Like, two or two or three years after after my son graduated from college, again, graduation from college, the payroll you're you're off the payroll on your own financially. You were not paying for car insurance. The rest of it's on you.
Jon Mckenney:They all had jobs within months after they graduated. So my ex texted me one time and said, Hey, well, there's an appointment with our son that he had back three or four years ago, and the bill just came in, and he would like for you to pay it. And I said, No. Well, it happened. It happened The appointment was three years ago.
Jon Mckenney:And I said, The bill just came in today. No. I'm not going to pay it. I'm not gonna pay it. The arrangement is that after he graduates, all of his financial burdens are on him.
Jon Mckenney:And whether this was incurred back then and they forgot to send the bill, I kinda don't care, but he's going to be on his own. Now here's what I can tell you with 100% certainty happened after I said I was not gonna pay.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, yeah. I can already tell.
Jon Mckenney:My ex told him, well, I talked to your father about paying for this, and he's not going to go do it. So you know what? I'm going to pay it
Padideh Jafari:100 for percent. Triangulation. They love this.
Jon Mckenney:It is. I guarantee. And again, it it puts a more of a wedge between me and him. These kinds of things are happening all the time. You have to realize that.
Jon Mckenney:If you have a kid who doesn't get it, every little thing that happens to you will go back to the narcissist and they will reframe it and make it make it out on you. When I finally did get back with my oldest, she even told me some of the stories. She goes, Well, why are you not in touch with your mother and father? And I said, here's why. My parents have chosen to only go and spend time with my ex.
Jon Mckenney:When they come to town, they they stay over there. She goes, they don't call you? And I go, no. They don't call you. Well, didn't they write you a letter talking to you about this stuff?
Jon Mckenney:I go, no. They haven't written me anything.
Padideh Jafari:So she was hearing lies, basically.
Jon Mckenney:So she was hearing lies, and part of part of our first conversation, and I allowed her to direct the conversation, part of the conversation was her telling me these lies that had been told to her that paint me as the bad guy when actually none of this stuff, these things were all fabrications anyways. I let her direct it. And as she wants to continue to have those conversations in the days ahead, I'm happy to have them. Maybe they're a part of her coming to her senses. Yes.
Jon Mckenney:But but you have to understand that everything you say can and will be used against you by the narcissist, and it will reframe absolutely anything, even the positive things you do in your life as negative. They will make that happen.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I would just say one thing. The alternative route alternative route was to pay the bill, and this is who I am as a person. I would have said, and I always go back to my husband, let's pay the bill so she doesn't have one more thing, and this is for our son. So I do a lot of behind the scenes management of this stuff because my husband, husband, by the way, his name is John.
Padideh Jafari:So when John says John, he's referring to my husband.
Jon Mckenney:That's right.
Padideh Jafari:But so I'm the type of stepmom that's like, no, we're gonna pay that bill because I don't want her to have one more thing, and this is for our son. So that's another way of doing it too, Just another perspective. It is. And then it's off and it's like, no, I don't want her to pay half. I'm gonna pay And listen, we have the good fortune of being able to do that.
Padideh Jafari:I know not everyone can do that. So please, I'm not judging, but to say, you know what? You know what? We're gonna pay this bill. And then I will say, you know, text them like, we'll pay this bill in full, you know, whatever.
Padideh Jafari:But again, none of that stuff by the way matters to them because they think that they're entitled to it anyway because they're this child of a narcissist. But for your own conscience, you're like, you know what? This is one less thing.
Jon Mckenney:Well, the game the game for the narcissist changes once you divorce, and it becomes since they can't manipulate you directly, they they come at you through your children. And and that's the thing you ultimately have to realize that that the game the game has changed. And and Padeeta said it, you know, how do you how do you manage this? You have to not give up on your kids. You have to remember where the nastiness comes from, and you have to love them with everything you're capable of even sometimes when you don't feel it because they're treating you so nasty.
Jon Mckenney:It's very, very difficult if your kids don't have that understanding to have them return to you. And and, it's like opening yourself up to potential abuse from from the narcissist, and they can they'll figure out ways to go do it. Padilla, I'll bet you. I will bet you that even though you paid that bill for your kid, his ex figured a way Oh, go back and bad mouth you. They're just made of money, and they just
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon Mckenney:I had to go beg for it, and they just don't wanna spend it on you. If they had wanted to spend it on you, they would've just done so already, and I wouldn't have had to beg. They're such selfish people.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, well here's the good news. While she's playing checkers back in wherever the heck she is, I'm playing chess. And the kid the three boys love me. They adore me. We have such a great relationship.
Jon Mckenney:Well, you love like your own.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. We laugh. We joke. We do all the things. And you know what?
Padideh Jafari:At the end of the day, there is a god that sees all things. Not that I do it for credit, but like there is a God that sees all things and I feel sympathy because I had great parents growing up, great siblings. I feel sympathy for somebody that was raised by a narcissist. And it's like now you're mirroring this idiot demon basically. And so I just call them demons now because that's what they are.
Padideh Jafari:They're Satan spawns. Now you're, you know, so how can I blame my child for that? I can't blame my child for that. It's just another way that the enemy's trying to get a foothold and it's like, Nope, I'm gonna pay that bill. Even I told my husband, If we have to make two installments or three, it doesn't matter because you know what?
Padideh Jafari:She's not going to tell my kid that this wasn't paid. But then you took a different route and you're like, Nope, don't care. But my husband would be the same as you, by the way, if I wasn't in He's told me a million times, Because of you, I have a better relationship with him because I don't give a damn. No, he said, he's like, I've given 80% of my wealth so she can live on a lake in a five bedroom with two cars and all the things like no mortgage, nothing. He's like, Do you think I give a damn about a 22 year old that just graduated?
Padideh Jafari:He's like, I don't give a damn. I'll walk away and I'll be scot free. But I'm the one that says, No, we have to sacrifice because remember what it was like to live with her. And remember how she had you fooled under the cloud of darkness. And he's like, Oh yeah, I do remember that.
Padideh Jafari:But all that to say is we worked it out by the grace of God. Mhmm. My stoicism helped, but I just feel sorry. I feel bad. Imagine imagine you're a kid and you just don't know better.
Padideh Jafari:So please, please, if you're out there, your kid is just being used like you were.
Jon Mckenney:And you have to remember that. You have to remember it is it is they are victims of abuse just like you are, and it looks different in them. And And pray that they come to their senses so that they understand. Because it again, you know, like I talked about my ex being having the generational narcissism passed down, you hope and pray that as you move away from the narcissist, as you divorce and you have these conversations, that even your kids will understand because it's for their benefit in the long run as well. So make sure you keep loving, don't give up, and remember that they really have been abused as well and are being abused even with the narrative that the narcissists continue to fly.
Padideh Jafari:One of the things that John said to me last year, I remember it clearly because I have a great memory and audiographic memory. He said, your three sons are male victims of female narcissists. And that's John's, you know, that's his whole Instagram handle. And I literally, it felt like I was punched in the stomach. I go, what did you say?
Padideh Jafari:He said, you do realize that they are actually male victims of female narcissists, their mother. And that to me, I literally, it changed the trajectory of how I saw it. And instead of saying these are bratty, they're bratty or they're entitled or whatever, I was like, you know what? They don't know any better. Should they know better?
Padideh Jafari:Yes, but they don't know. And they're boys. And so we've said to them multiple occasions, if you ever need to see a therapist or whatever, my husband has said that to them, do not be ashamed. Boys do actually cry and that's okay because they have cried us because of her. But yeah, I think the generational narcissism is something that we should talk about in season six, John, because you said that and I was like, wow.
Jon Mckenney:Yeah. Yeah. And it won't take so long now that we're both healthy and we can can start recording again after a a rough summer for us both. So we're looking forward to season six. We're gonna keep going.
Jon Mckenney:We do have some exciting topics. Hopefully, some new guests as well. And it ought to be a a really great and educational time. As we we tell these things, you know, it's our hope for you that you really identify because our stories are also your stories. And and we want you to understand that you're not in this alone, that your kids are worth the fight.
Jon Mckenney:And we we really do hope that is as we wade through these conversations, you're understanding as well what you can do to help yourself in your own situation. So, Padilla, until next time.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon Mckenney:I'll see you again soon. And and we hope that the rest of you have a wonderful day and that you live narcissist free.
Voiceover Artist:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handle narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover Artist:The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.