Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Join us on the Disruption Now podcast as we challenge the status quo and advocate for digital equity, ownership, and responsible technology.
the white collar recession. Things are
changing faster than we've ever seen
before. That I was making impact in
organizations but not always seeing the
full benefit. You get some protection
because of that. But I wanted something
a little different. That's a pretty
that's about as a staple as a job you
can have. What are the problems that you
are uniquely designed to solve? You may
be really great at designing labels for
eight tracks. No one's buying that right
now. individuals that have really never
had to struggle to find a job um that
are struggling. We might be able to have
two that are overseeing the AI and
double-checking the AI work. How do we
figure out how to pay for this? All
chickens come home to roost. Getting
them back to the office, it's really a
guys that can figure out more ways to
lay people off. Now that the cheese has
moved, the landscape has changed. What's
a resume, right? Like you had to
basically back the recruiters out of
your inbox if you were any good.
Everyone's both a tech company and a
media company. They are not in business
to help you feed your family. Hard stop.
Everybody needs to have an
entrepreneurial mindset. The illiterate
of the 21st century will not be those
who cannot read or write, but those who
cannot learn, unlearn,
and relearn. 85% of the jobs in 2030
don't actually exist right now because
you were at that job, right? And I'm not
and they still laid you off. What you
going to do? like you got to actually be
able to have a dynamic uh conversation.
You are positioning yourself to work
harder.
[Music]
Welcome to Disruption Now. I'm your host
and moderator, Rob Richardson. You know,
on the show, we love to bring on
innovators, entrepreneurs, and those who
are disrupting the status quo in their
own way. And Nicole is doing that for
the for the rec for the white collar
recession we're having right now to help
you through your job search through your
career because things are changing
faster than we've ever seen before. But
before I get into the show, always I
want to encourage you to become part of
our community of disruptors. You know,
about 90% of you that watch the show
aren't actually subscribers. Ask you to
be a subscriber. Please leave a review.
Also, if you're listening to this on on
podcast, leave a review. That's how we
can spread our message more to make sure
that uh we continue to uh move society
forward to make it more human centric as
as emerging technology uh becomes more a
part of our society. So we can't get
that message out unless you tell people.
So we need more fellow disruptors. We
need you. Uh we also have an upcoming
conference that we'd love to invite you
to September 10th and 11th called
Midwestcon. a social innovation
conference that focuses on humanizing uh
innovation and embedding empathy into
innovation. But without any further ado,
Nicole, great to have you on the show.
How you doing today?
I am doing well. Thanks so much. Glad to
be here. It's a long time coming this
conversation, Rob. It has it has been a
long time coming, but you know, I I
enjoyed our prep conversation and uh I'm
really um inspired by what you do and uh
want to talk to you more about it. So,
you haven't been doing this your entire
career and uh so I'm curious
like what made you realize that that you
wanted to be in uh in the mission of
helping people through their job and
through their careers? Like how did you
come to this epiphany? Yeah. Yeah,
that's a great question. Uh my
background really is in a few different
sectors. Corporate America and the
nonprofit sector as well as um uh
entrepreneurship and consulting. On the
corporate and nonprofit side of my
background, I've done quite a bit in
operations and administrative management
as well as human resources. I have
always loved the process of hiring my
teams, helping the people that are on my
teams grow and develop within the roles
at my company and also just thinking
through what are the steps to make my
hiring process more efficient. Right? So
that's kind of where it started as a
manager growing teams in at the time
what was a fast growing ear a new state
a newer industry which was um for-profit
or online university
I was hiring handover fist every quarter
for at the time I was working with
Kaplan University and we were at the
point the number two player in the
market and growing that team of of
support team and how do I go about
having these level one and level two
tech support people come through my my
my team, get them upskilled quickly so
they can address the issues. So that was
how I cut my teeth on all all things
related to hiring and the hiring market
um as a hiring manager. Uh from that
point though, I also then moved into
doing some things in um related to HR
and recruiting for other organizations.
Uh everything related to how do you help
managers make better decisions. Fast
forward to a few years later, I'm
working in management again myself at
Northwestern University at the law
school there and I am hiring a smaller
team, but I'm doing some hiring and and
there as well. And in the midst of
things that were happening in that
economy, which we are of a similar age
range, so 2008,
2007,
2008, we all know what was happening in
the economy at that point. Um, and I had
a series of things that happened that
made me decide that it was time for me
to step out and try something on my own.
Let me try this entrepreneurship thing.
I have entrepreneurs on both sides of my
family. I started to realize that I was
making impact in organizations but not
always seeing the full benefit of the
impact that I was making because that's
what happens when you um are employed
and that's okay. You get some protection
because of that. But I wanted something
a little different. Hm. Theoretically,
yes. But yes, the theoretically
theoretically, right, fast forward to
today. Um, however, I wanted to try
something different and I stepped away
from a full-time job in management at
the at the law school there at
Northwestern um to start uh my very
first business, which was basically
consulting to small business owners on
legal services. Wow. I did that in 2008
um is my last day there. And of course
if we know what happened 2008 2009
it became quite clear that we were it
was business it was not business as
usual if you will and through that
process who I had to become in order to
quite frankly close sales Rob I had to
take every aspect of my professional
background everything I learned from
marketing my first job out of college I
worked in in in luxury package goods
marketing um and how to help people
understand those elements ments I
everything I learned as a go there a
little bit Nicole I'd like to get to
your aspects but you obviously have a
lot of career experience and you made
that big transition between uh you know
having a job at Northwestern is a that's
a pretty that's about as stable as a job
you can have uh it used to be government
very different nowadays too but I
digress uh that was a very stable job
what advice would you give looking back
your younger self knowing everything you
know now
in terms of like making that transition
because a lot of people are going to
either awaken to that transition right
now or going to be forced to that
transition right now. So what advice
would you give your younger self when
you're first starting off from uh
leaving the 95 to the entrepreneurial
journey? Nothing is wasted, right? What
do you do best? What do you love to do
most? Um what is it that when you do it
people marvel right it's not it's common
it's common place to you when but when
you do it people are just shocked and
awe in shock and in awe that you can see
a solution to something what are the
problems that you are uniquely designed
to solve and secondly even so that's
your own self assessment but the second
part of that is what does the market
need right now
you might be really great at designing
labels for eight tracks. No one's buying
that right now.
Not that I know. I'm just saying. Not
that there may be like five people that
are collecting them for their, you know,
personal museum, right? And I'm so happy
that you have those customers. However,
looking at what the marketplace needs
plus what you are uniquely designed to
do and bringing those two together can
be a very powerful place. Right. No, the
intersection.
Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say
there's some additional nuances to that,
right? You know, what does the
competitive set look like? How hard is
it to bring that to profit? Um, how easy
is it for that to scale based on what
your actual goals are? But those are the
two first pieces. Yeah. But that that's
that's, you know, being able to identify
what you're uniquely positioned at and
and what the market actually needs.
Yeah. and and these fundamentals don't
change right now even in the midst of
this this uh this white collar recession
that we're going through right now. So I
think that's really really great advice.
Let's talk about this shift though. What
do you think has what is going on right
now? What is the shift that you see is
happening and because we've seen cycles
before, right? I think there's a
difference between things being cyclical
and that like 2008 there was a there was
a you know just a downturn, a recession,
a mass recession and those things
happen. Uh but we talked about this and
I think you you agree there's been a
fundamental shift. What do you think the
fundamental shift is when it comes to
the job market right now specifically
with the white collar market? Yeah, I
think the biggest shift is that there
are individuals that have really never
had to struggle to find a job um that
are struggling and I can speak about
this from an industry's perspective.
Clearly, this this audience and and your
platform, you speak a lot more to folks
that are in the tech industry or that
are tech curious or that are looking to
implement that more into their life
every day and in the business and
political sectors. However, I think it's
important to realize that it's gone
beyond that. And yes, we can start at
this year, but we actually could
probably start two and a half years
earlier when open AI came to the
forefront in many ways to bring Gen AI
to the masses. That's when we started to
really see the disruption about two and
a half two two and a half years ago. Um
that January of what 2023 when it
started to show up everywhere and we
were hearing all of that talk. um
companies from 2023 and I'm speaking now
specifically to the tech industry. Of
course it is trickling down to other
industries. Companies from 2023 started
to say wait a second we are paying our
you know top um architects and these
other people that have these highly
skilled high high level skills $300,000
$200,000 base or 250 plus you know 20%
bonus you know total comp plus stock for
one person. And we have hundreds or
possibly thousands of these people
across the planet. But there's this AI
thing that costs a lot of money to
implement. Yes. But it's proponing. It's
saying that we may very well be able to
cut instead of having 10 programmers or
developers doing this work. We might be
able to have two that are overseeing the
AI and double-checking the AI work. So a
lot of companies went into this and
said, how do we figure out number one,
how not to be left behind, right? And
number two, how do we figure out how to
pay for this? How do we figure out how
to pay for it? Right? And so those are
the couple of things that happen that
are probably the easiest for everyone to
see on the surface. But we could also
quite frankly go even further back than
that. Remember this little thing called
COVID, right? 2020, 2021, and the global
impact of that. There was a cost in
America for us to put some of the
policies in place for the world to shut
down. And some of that cost we have been
paying for for the past several years
through inflation, right? The cost of
goods and services have gone higher have
gotten higher. And again, not to talk go
too far into politics and and political
policies, but it's kind of hard not to
touch on it a little bit. Absolutely.
Yeah. Well, you're not you're not you're
not you're not debarred from doing that.
So, go for it. Multiply. Well,
well, I want to make sure that we
there's so much noise right now in the
marketplace and we'll get to the what
what people need to be doing today. I I
have some very specific thoughts about
that, but I do think in order to even
have a context of what to do today, we
need to understand what has happened.
Agreed.
part of
the world shutting down um and goods and
services not moving the way that they
once did across our planet um caused not
only a backlog um it cost it cost a lot
of money for the the the world to shut
down the way that we had to because we
didn't have a cure for this thing called
yeah people were dying and we like to
remake facts about things but like
million I think over a million people
died in the US alone there's a lot of
people that died in the US alone.
Exactly. Right. So we are we had to do
certain things and also because again I
I referenced 2008 2009 at the beginning
beginning of this conversation but there
are politicians in 20 in 2020 that were
in office or were very much working
adults during 2008 and 2009. And if you
understand what happened in 2009 and the
fact that the world went into a global
recession because American polit we
allowed big banks to fail which impacted
monetary um monetary structures across
the planet.
No one wanted to be in politics and have
it on their back that they allowed again
an an economy to crash. So we wrote
checks like anything. We were sending
stimulus checks. We were, hey, if you've
got a mortgage, you don't have to pay
the mortgage for a year. We will hold it
because we know that we're not working.
We will do all of these things. We've
got PPP loans. We've got all this money
that we threw in to make sure that this
the economy didn't go to the bottom,
i.e. 2009, right? And that worked in the
short term, but all chickens come home
to roost. Yeah. Someone's got to pay for
that. And some of that's being paid for
in inflation. So, that also started it.
That also started where things cost
more. If eggs for you and I cost $8 a
dozen and a company needs to for us, how
much more where everything from paper
goods to microchips to anything that a
company needs to buy is it costing?
Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, I agree. I
mean, it's it's definitely it's
something that we can't we got here
through a collection of things, right?
And you look at 2020. 2020 was a
different market when it came to the on
the employee side, right? You were I
think it's one of the strongest markets
we've seen and people got a false sense
of I think power and security about what
it looks like and I feel like we're
seeing the mirror reflection or exact
opposite I would say of 2020 we're
seeing in 2025 in that this is now a
completely employer market. employers
are moving to get people I think back to
the office under the guise of getting
them back to the office. It's really a
guise I think to figure out more ways to
lay people off. Uh but that's the but
but I think this is the world that we're
in and we can complain about it all we
want but the this is the world we're in.
So you are we are navigating this as
working professionals
like how what advice do you give to
working professionals now because things
are different now that the cheese has
moved the landscape has changed how do
you advise current working professionals
that like you said aren't necessarily
used to the struggle and are and are
adapting to a new reality. Yeah. It's
interesting because a lot of the work I
personally personally one-on-one have
probably worked with at this point in my
career over 1500 people that are in
career transition this year. Probably a
hundred alone this year, right? Um so
it's not I I have a lot of conversations
with folks in a lot of industries.
Probably about 60% of the people that I
work with 50 to 60% of them are coming
from the tech space, right? Um certainly
I've worked across all industries, but
that's probably a bigger component of
that. So, I'm going to first talk to
that person because I think that is the
audience that is probably the most has
been the most surprised or disrupted by
what's been happening the last couple of
years, right? Um,
number one, it's not business as usual
in a job search. Quite frankly, the in
in the past, my average tech
professional didn't even really have to
do a job search. What's a resume, right?
Like, you had to basically back the
recruiters out of your inbox if you were
any good at what you did and if you had
a particular trajectory in your career.
um that was the way that you did that.
You got a very strong six-figure income
doing work that you were good at that
people were constantly recruiting you to
pay you more money to do. Right? So that
if you grew up in the tech space and you
grew up, let's say you are somewhere
between 30 and 50 and you've spent the
last, you know, 20 10 to 20 plus years
of your professional career in tech up
until two and a half years ago, you
probably don't know a whole lot about
what it is to actually have a true
full-time proactive job search. You
don't know that life. You don't know
that world. No. Right. So that's the
first thing. Um, now we are, you and I
are talking in 2025. This is a
conversation that I've been having with
folks since 2022, 2023. Um, and it's
even more relevant today because it's
trickling down to other industries and
sectors, right? Um, so number one,
understand that you actually have to
execute a true job search and not just
any old job search, but a job search
strategy, right? Which means you're
doing certain things based on a goal
that you have in mind about where you
want to go, not today, but where you see
the marketplace going in the future.
So that's the first thing. I think the
second thing to keep in mind is that we
didn't just have this inflationary
environment and companies are laying off
let's just say tech professionals um
because of needing to find f funds and
change priorities right um so that they
can implement and bring on more of these
AI and genai tools so they can be
competitive it wasn't just that it is
now you also tech professional need to
understand how to use some of these AI
tools and what what are the pros and
cons of using these every single day in
your in your particular function. I feel
like and that's a conversation that we
could talk about beyond just um the tech
industry. Every single industry, I don't
care whether you are a um teacher, I
don't care whether you are an
accountant, whether you are a podcaster,
um whether you are a content creator,
whether you are a marketer, um every
single industry is now having to think
about whether they want to or not.
How is Gen AI and the tools that are
coming out disrupting the way that I do
business? Yes. Yes. I mean, it's it's
it's Yes. Yes. And yes. So, beyond being
a podcaster, we also build and build
applications uh AI and Jet applications.
But mo the most important and the and
the thing and the place we start with is
you know what is your vision for your
company and and what changes are you
seeking to make and helping them and
what are your pain points and how do you
currently go about them now um and and
so like I think that's so important what
you said and I think getting back to
this working professional right you have
to think about the fundamentals to be
successful you kind of hit some of them
right um like I look at it and I'd like
to get your comments on this basically
about three things you needs to
understand. It's a different way. Uh we
have the job seekers and there's a way
that I want you to talk about that a
little bit about what you need to be
successful because I think I want to
dive more into that. But the working
professional,
the founder, whoever you are, right?
Whatever whatever you're doing, whoever
who who's ever listening to the sound of
my voice, you are going to have to
approach things differently. Like it
used to be, as you know, and we had this
conversation when we prepped for the uh
podcast, a
a person that was a coder, if you were a
good coder, you can just go sit in a
corner, not talk to anybody, go code. As
long as you coded well, no one cared,
right? Um there might be a few people
like that, but you have to be so damn
good. You have to probably be in the top
1% like to be to for that to be
something you can get away with. Now,
that's no longer the case. you have to
now have a more global picture of things
of understanding the business
fundamentals. Um, even if you're not
technical, as you said, everyone's both
a tech company and a media company.
Everybody has to know some level of
technology. Period. Hard stop, right?
And you have to know how to interact
with AI in some ways. That doesn't mean
you have to be an expert in all things,
but you better be comfortable with AI
amplifying what you do. and then look
for uh opportunities uh that others
don't see and find and connect patterns.
I say so we have to be in some ways we
have more opportunities but in in a way
in in another way you have to also kind
of know a little more and learn a little
more than you had to before even though
that there's more tools at your ca at
your at your disposal. I'm curious to
see what do you think as a working
professional if you had to give the top
three things you you need to do to be
successful as a professional what would
those things be?
Number one you must understand business
perspective. So this is where the white
collar professional the white collar
recession piece comes in. As I mentioned
a few moments ago we have people that
never really had to struggle because
they did the things right. They got the
bachelor's degree, maybe even a master's
degree in their area of expertise. They
worked through the Fortune 500s or
Fortune 100 companies. They grew their
skill set over time and they continue to
do so. And even those people because of
no fault in many instances of their own
um they may find themselves out of work
in an environment that has shifted,
right? Um, for some of those
individuals,
and I'm I'll speak to the tech industry
professional, but also beyond that,
whether we're talking about someone
that's in accounting or someone that's
in education or some other piece, they
really didn't have to know what how the
business made money or really have a
full understanding of how the business
that they were working for, the company
that they were working for, um, made
money, what was the competitive set
around them, um, what were the things
that were shifting the decision- making
in the company. That was something that
no one really wants to talk about this,
but you kind of didn't need to
understand that unless you were in a
sales or a you were more a senior level
role as you were going up into the the
the senior level or senior director,
vice president level roles, then an
understanding even more so of the
business perspective was necessary. That
is not the case anymore. I do believe
that a lot of reasons, a lot of the
reason that companies ended up cutting
people from their staff that may even
have been in functions that were making
money, they just needed maybe that was a
lower priority for the business. So
understanding how the company that
you're considering working for that you
currently work for, how do they make
money, right? What is the competitive
set around that company doing? Because
if you do not believe that many of the
layoffs that were happening in fame
companies were happening because the
competitor across the street right
whether I'm Amazon and I'm looking at
Meta laying off and I'm over because
they're getting ready to get money
together to go ahead and invest in these
data centers or I am you know IBM and
Dell's over here doing layoffs
right like it they respond to each other
and how they are responding and that
trickles down to you accountant you
marketing um director ctor you you know
programmer. Yeah. I mean that's that's
yeah that that's go ahead Nicole. Yeah.
So I I think I was just going to say
that's that's one of the biggest things
like recognizing that understanding
business
is actually in my opinion something that
is becoming much more of a fundamental
need for the everyday worker. Right? We
are in whether you want whether you like
it or not. We are in a society that is
based on capitalism. Business are
businesses are in business to make a
profit. They are not in business to help
you feed your family. They are not in
business to um
primarily in business to produ um
release goods and services to the
marketplace. They are a business is a
business in order to make a profit.
Right. Yeah. Hard stop. Hard stop.
That's hard stop. Hard stop. And so if
the landscape in which a company makes
profits changes, the company is fast,
especially if they're publicly traded
because hello, they've got to answer to
to shareholders, right, about how
they're doing things, right? So this is
why Target's a little bit in trouble
right now and a few other companies like
that that you've made decisions that are
now impacting the bottom line and we own
part of you. So now you need to come
talk to us about what you just did and
who who thought about this. Right.
Exactly. So companies are being called
on the carpet and have to be and have
that's the nature of being publicly
traded, right? You know, Nicole, it
makes me think about if you were because
you know, most people are not
entrepreneurs. Uh, of course, and it's a
and it's it is a different life and I
don't say everybody should be an
entrepreneur,
but I firmly believe everybody needs to
have an entrepreneurial mindset where
you are to your point. Right. So, this
is you have to always be learning. uh
you have to understand the business
because if you do that you'll be much
better positioned right and you can't
just see your role as I just do my job
my job is limited to this and you can't
think one-dimensional anymore in a in a
fourdimensional world like things are
moving so quick things are you need to
in order to make yourself um stand out
you have to do the things you're saying
right uh but we I think there's there is
a struggle right getting back to both
job seekers it is very difficult
specifically for people that have
thought a certain way for a long time to
be able to change the method of their
thinking. Yeah. This is this feels
difficult to me. Maybe I'm wrong. No. Um
it's not. How do you advise uh you know
your clients who have been fixated on
this is how the world works. If I do
this, I work hard at my job. I
understand my role. I should be okay.
Right? And that's obviously not the
case. um if I have this I've had all
these um career uh opportunities, I've
uh built my career, I have experience, I
should be able to easily find a job. We
know that's not the truth. Number one,
how do you guide them towards that
mindset? And then the second question is
what's the most impactful thing they can
do to begin to make the transition from
where they were to where they need to
be? Yeah, this is a great question. Um
there is a quote that honestly I've been
quoting for years and I don't think it's
ever been more true than today. Um
there's a futurist by the name of Alvin
Tooffler and he stated that the
illiterate of the 21st century will not
be those who cannot read or write but
those who cannot learn,
unlearn
and relearn. Right. Oh, that's a that's
a mic drop moment. That is good. Yeah.
Yeah. like it is it's authentically
um impossible
in the long term. I'm not talking about
in the next two to five years. I'm
talking about in the next you know 8 to
20 years to maintain even your sanity
let alone your marketability if you are
unwilling to embrace a growth mindset.
Right? I would also say it's a pivot
from becoming I'm not saying that
there's not a place to become a subject
matter expert in a particular area
because I think that is the case right I
really do I really do think there is
that however in addition to being a
subject matter expert in an area you
must also start to generate a certain or
develop a certain mindset that is
curious and that is open to learning you
want to think about this tech the tools
and the skill sets that are needed in
the marketplace today. That's another
major trend that's happening and it's
been happening for a while but we're
seeing much more of a pivot towards it
even now this side of you know open AI
and Gen AI really taking to the
forefront which is a skills-based
economy right that means you literally
might see something in a job posting and
you got 60% of the requirements required
skills and there may be two or three
things on there that you don't really
know a whole lot about but you're
noticing that every time you look for a
job with this title they're asking now
for these particular two or three
technologies. What does that mean?
Instead of thinking, "Oh gosh, let me
throw up my hands. I don't know how to
do that." You go find yourself a
LinkedIn learning course, you go find a
UDI course, you go spend a weekend on,
you know, YouTube and do some YouTube
university and educate yourself enough
about that thing so that you can have an
intelligent conversation. I think my
average tech professional understands
that to a certain extent because
certifications have been a thing for
quite some time and they unlock higher
levels of salary and responsibility
based on certain certifications you have
right um however the average working
professional um that used to be that
mindset of growth mindset that a that
mindset of upskilling myself on a
regular basis that has been has been
something that's been not new um it's
been around and the people that I love
to work with we talk about that and have
talked about that for a decade but now
it's becoming table stakes. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Like everybody from you know
all those I don't agree with the
approach of what's happening at the with
the everything at the at u at 1600
Pennsylvania
and how they're going about it is I
think is inhumane. Yeah. But there's no
question even at federal, state, and
local levels we're gonna have to
reimagine services. We're going to have
to reimagine how we um how we serve the
public. uh uh those who those who work
in the public sector too also are going
to have to learn more and learn faster
and some do but that's going to be the
requirement for everyone right everybody
right and this is because this is the
world as it is right and so you know
there's a study um by Dell I think and
several others that that that that shows
that by 2030 85% of the jobs in 2030
don't actually exist right now right so
hold on to that that's pretty pretty
wild.
Even if that's an exaggeration and it's
not 80 to 85%. A large portion of jobs
are changing right now. And so you got
two options. Pretend like it doesn't
exist or figure out how to pivot and
change with the times. And there's so
many tools to do it right now. You just
said a LinkedIn learning. Google offers
a free course. I think Microsoft offers
a free course for AI. I think even MIT
and Stanford offer all types of free
courses for it. It is not outside of
your capability. You just have to get
your mindset right and you have to learn
by doing. Like I how I how I'm learning
AI, how I've learned AI, how I've
learned everything technical is that I
sit down, listen, and then I go do it.
It's really that's really it. Like it's
not rocket science. It's you got to just
sit down and go do it. And you have the
ability to do it. You just have to
decide to do it. And and we need more
people to do it. to build right now. Uh
so really appreciate the work you're
doing. So what I'm curious uh what do
you think is the biggest kind of
misconception right now with job seekers
that's happening right now? Yeah. Yeah.
I think um gosh that there's there's
several.
Let me try to narrow it down to a few.
Um, someone that's brand new in the job
search that maybe hasn't had to do an
external job search in the past might
think that the best and only way to find
a job is to um get their resume done and
start applying using LinkedIn and the
job boards um Indeed and LinkedIn. And
it is it is a great strategy. In fact, I
it's a foundational job search strategy
to anyone that's in in job search um
because here's what job boards do. They
allow you to see what the marketplace is
calling your type of role today. Y it
allows you to understand the vocabulary
that the marketplace is using to
describe your skill set today, right?
Which if you've been in you haven't been
in the open market in 10 years or five
years, you may not realize that what
used to be called um you know web
designer is now UX design is now some
other new designer, right? Um so you may
not recognize that shift. Um however um
so that's a good thing. However,
everybody's doing that. So, if you are
going into a job search thinking that
the way I'm going to find a job is only
and solely by going through the job
boards, then that's a wrong way to go
about doing it. I think the strategies
for how I recommend my clients find
jobs, they haven't changed. There are
six core job search strategies that
anybody that's listening can and could
possibly be using for their job search.
And dependent upon your personality,
dependent upon um the market and the
industry that you're targeting,
two or three of them, most people should
be doing at least two, maybe three job
search strategies. Do we have time for
me to just mention those six briefly
now? We do. Yeah, we have time. Yeah, we
have No. Okay, cool. Let me just mention
them briefly because I find that too
many people get focused on one thing and
not enough of the others. So, in no
particular order, the first one I've
just mentioned is thirdparty job boards.
That's your Indeed. That's your
LinkedIn. That is your uh you know Zip
Recruiter, Glass Door, you know, Dice,
what whatever your job boards that
you're using that you're finding jobs.
Even Google, which most people don't
seem to realize, if you type the job
title, you type the city and the word
job that you're looking for, Google
itself uses the power of the Google
search engine to act as an an
aggregator, pulling jobs from all over
the internet and presenting them to you.
So, that's another one that people seem
to forget about, but all of those are
the same thing. Third-party job boards,
right? Um, and that's great until
they're not, right? So, that's number
one. There are strategies and techniques
I teach to make that more efficient um
for somebody when a job is posted
matters right now. Um, where you f found
the job matters right now. Using it to
source the job, but not necessarily
using it to apply for the job, that
matters right now, right? You find it on
the job board, you go to the web
website. Anyways, lots of things on that
one, but that's only one. Most people
use that only. The second one that we're
talking more about now and I'm grateful
for is networking, right? Networking is
a job search strategy, particularly for
my tech tech professionals right now.
Um, networking is a job search strategy
and a care and a career boosting
long-term strategy that people
underestimate underestimate really
underestimate. And if I want you to dive
on that, don't forget your point. No, I
do want to say this and especially
talking to the younger generation. Um,
you really have to learn at your earlier
career, you need to actually, this is
going to sound counterintuitive, but
early in your career, you need to value
relationships and building them and
learning over money. That sounds weird.
Yeah. And they're like, "No, I need to
get paid as much as possible right now."
I get that. And I'm not saying you don't
need money and you need you need to have
you need to make money. However, for you
to get that money, you have to develop
some level of relationships where people
actually learn to trust you, rely on
you, understand the value that you bring
and that you actually want to bring
value, not just take. And then you got
to develop some skill sets, right? Like
it's it's that takes learning. And so
like, you know, I I' I've seen this
challenge happen a lot. And you know, I
I love a lot of the energy. I love the
perspective of a lot of the younger
generation trying to bring balance to
the workforce and I agree with that. But
if you are in and you're talking to an
entrepreneur on your first job and your
first line or your repeated line is work
life balance when you are just starting.
I'm I always ask I ask people like what
are you balancing? I'm just asking
I feel like because they a lot of times
they don't have kids or anything else.
I'm like like I'm just I'm just trying
to understand but that's all I Okay, I
digress. But go ahead, Nicole. You you
were on your
I I Oh my Oh my So I I have a a a client
that I was working with earlier this
year. We had a conversation and he's in
that, you know, 30s age range. Um and we
we we had a lot of conversation around
um the idea of having a professional
network and that generation for all
kinds of reasons like I follow trends.
If you haven't learned this from me, I
kind of watch what's happened
historically and see what's repeating,
what's new and how we can leverage the
past to see what's happening in the
future. Sure. And I look at it from
outside of sectors. So we have this
whole kind of pay me what you owe me
kind of energy that has come out uh for
the the the younger generation, right?
Not a bad mindset in theory because they
saw their parents and sacrifice time
with them, right? You were not at my at
my at my football game or at my
basketball game or at my cheer cheer
meet because you were at that job,
right? And I'm not and they still laid
you off, right?
they're coming from that energy and then
they're seeing, okay, they just saw
front and center, I went and did all the
things and I still couldn't find a job
or whatever the case may be in those
early years. So, they they have that
kind of mindset and then of course
popular culture with songs like better
have my money, right? you know, like
that we we laugh it and we and we joke
at it, but like the the ramifications
are you go into the workplace and you
start expecting that same sort of energy
like I'm going to, you know, toeto toe
you on this and if you don't have it,
I'm out. And that's cool, but what
you're what you're not doing is
collecting that collateral over the
years. So when the time comes that you
do actually need a reference, you do
need sponsorship. You do need someone to
mentor you or someone to call just to
ask a question. You don't have that
because transactional relationships are
transactional in both ways, right? So if
that's if we're going to be
transactional, we're going to be
holistically transactional. So please do
not be mad when I don't not respond to
your LinkedIn inbox because all you
wanted was to clock that to to to punch
that that clock and to leave. Yep. I
don't know you. You didn't build a
relationship with me. Yeah. No, it's
it's it's it is the truth. And that and
that also goes to relationship of not
only people you work with um people you
don't work with and the people you work
with there's also levels of relationship
like if I have to like being an
entrepreneur you know and having and
having staff you know you've seen people
that are like okay let me do I see this
as it it's it's 5:00 cut off done I'm
done with this not even if they have
nothing else to do right like and and
there's like all right I'm done I bring
in this amount and no more and That's
all right. The problem with that is that
if that's the mindset, an ecosystem
means that if you just take from it, it
doesn't build especially as an
entrepreneur and a small business. So
that goes to understanding like as a job
seeker now and as a working person, it
is very important that you understand
that you try to seek to bring value.
Doesn't mean you you you don't you
ignore people if they're trying to
exploit you, but I think there's also
some overreaction
and misunderstanding about what it
takes. like there is some level of
building relationships and paying dues
that you have to go through that we all
have to go through that we've all gone
through and there's also nothing wrong
with that. There's I think this this
this overfocus on balance has bringing
us out of balance into what it actually
takes to become successful in what it
always has taken. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a
lot of hard work and a lot of sacrifice.
You know, you can have it all just not
at the same time. Nope. Nope. Not at the
same time. And I wish I wish that was
understood more. Um, but we could we
could talk about that a lot. I want to
make sure I share the other four
strategies. Um, so you got two. The
first two were what again? Let's just
recap those. Third party job boards
number one. Um, networking. Networking
is number two. Number two. And the third
party job boards aren't as effective,
but they help tell you the landscape and
the language of currently what's
happening. Okay. What are the other four
strategies?
Um, the the the third one is um
recruiters. Working with recruiters,
right? third party recruiters at a
staffing firm, a temp agency, an
executive search firm, ped hunter, all
the same thing, just different versions
of that externally. You're not their
customer. The company that's paying
them, which is the company you want to
ultimately work for, is their customer.
You are a resource to them, right? Each
one of these strategies, there's pros
and cons to um but that's another one.
In the past, I think our tech, my tech
professionals have relied more on on um
an inreach, right? So recruiters were
reaching into them and the first thing
that most tech professionals did was go
out and try to reach out to recruiters
and they're not getting calls back
because everybody's reaching out to
those recruiters now, right? So if you
didn't have a relationship with them in
the past and the recruiters are trying
to pay their bills too because guess how
recruiters get paid by placing people
like you. And if they're not placing
people like you because their customers
are laying off 20% of their developers,
they're not getting the same checks they
used to get. So they're trying to buy
the eggs too that you're trying to buy.
It's all everything is connected which
is why we cannot look at this thing from
just a a siloed approach to it. We have
to really look at it holistically.
Anyways, so recruiters um the fourth
strategy is something called target
company list um where you identify a set
of criteria that make sense to you for
the type of company you want to work
for. Right? The criteria could be all
sorts of things. Direct competitors your
com your family uses their products,
goods and services. It could be um
they're a small company. They
um regularly show up on the 100 best
companies to work for in your city.
Whatever the criteria is, you set the
criteria first, number one. Then number
two, you look for the companies that
match that criteria.
This is a little bit different than most
people the way most people say, "Oh,
build a target company list." I teach my
clients this because quite frankly, if I
just say, "Give me a list of your top 20
companies." Everybody gives me the same
15 companies. Everybody. It's the
companies that are front and center,
good or bad, right? I can't tell you how
many people that I've spoken with that
have a particular culture that they want
to work with in an organization and then
they give me a list of a certain group
of fang companies and I'm like, not
around there, partner. Like, not around
there. Like, you're not going to get
that. Not that it boo. You don't want
that. You don't don't want what you
don't want. So, think about what you
actually want and then look for
companies that are doing that. There are
plenty of companies that are making more
than enough money to pay you very well
that you've never heard of. You know
why? Because they just do their
business. Yep. They're not in the
headlines every five minute. They're not
on LinkedIn news every 3 seconds being
talked about. Yeah. You can tell me more
about Nvidia, but who are the companies
that supply them? Who are the companies
that they're working with that have the
money because Nvidia is one of their
major contracts? Absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah. The suppliers behind the scene is
a huge huge industry in that. Forgotten.
Forgotten all the time. So I can talk a
lot about that. I teach target company
list strategy in four steps, but those
are the first two that are the most
critical. Set your criteria and then
find the companies. So we've talked
about four of them so far. Um the fifth
strategy that I like to to consider is
actually contracting. Contracting is a
subset of recruiter strategy. When I say
contracting, what I mean is I am very
clear on my skill set. And I am going to
now offer this particular skill set as a
gun for hire, if you will, to a company
that has a short-term or midterm need. A
short-term need could be three to six
months. Midterm could be six to a year.
Some companies even will do longer term
contracts. If you play your cards right,
and if you are clear on your your
subject matter expertise, this is why
going back to what we said earlier, can
add value. You can step into a company
with limited ramp up and actually create
value for that company for this
short-term engagement. There's two
things that come from that. Number one,
they get to kick the tires on you and
you get to kick the tires on them to see
if they're crazy and they get to see if
you're crazy. If you are good at what
you do and there's a need, they will
keep you on for other things. The other
thing that benefits for that is that you
also keep your skills sharp. You make
sure if you've been in a longer job
search, finding a contract can actually
help you to land an opportunity that you
may not went out. Went out. Move the
questions down too. Yeah, I don't know
why it's doing that. Go ahead. So, make
sure to mark that part. Go ahead. Yeah.
So if you are able to find a contract
that makes sense for your background,
you're you're getting your skills your
your skill set is is is being cultivated
in that environment and possibly even
testing new skills that you are picking
up because you are learning, unlearning,
and relearning while you're in
transition. It also can extend your
financial runway, right? Um lots of
things, but they're negatives to
contracts. Again, pros and cons to all
of them. Um the sixth strategy that I
like to talk about this is either going
to work or it's not going to work for
people. It's called boomerang, right?
This is works best when you have had a
career where you've worked with
different types of companies over the
years and you can look back at the
companies you've worked with in the past
and you can find a company that can I
boomerang back to a company that I
worked with in the past at a higher
level or at a slightly different skill
set that I have because I've grown over
the years. Clearly that only works if
you did good work there, right? If you
if the company and the industry that
they're in is viable, right? Because
some industries are no longer viable,
i.e. the eight track label creation
company, right? That that's not a thing
anymore. Yeah. Right. Um and do I um do
they have a policy of hiring people
back? Right. um slight little adjustment
to something and I think it's important
for for I think your your audience to
listen to especially if they're
contemplating a proactive job search or
they are out of work right now. Um one
of the things that our current economic
environment is doing as it relates to
how hiring managers, recruiters and
leaders are thinking about talent is
they are more likely to invest their
their they want to lower the risk. It is
expensive for a company to make a bad
hire or a mishhire. And when you talk
about a world where we've got AI tools
that are making it harder for a
recruiter, right, because I've sat in
the recruiter seat, I've sat in the HR
professional seat, and I have sat in the
hiring manager seat, right? So, I'm
doing everything I can to discern
whether the time I'm going to invest in
you for the next two to three months to
get you to 70% of what I need you to be
doing, am I going to see the return on
that in six months? And we've got AI
tools that make it harder for the person
sitting in this seat today to discern
whether you actually thought that or you
were just reading something that chat
GPT gave you. Exactly. No, preach.
Preach. Listen. Listen. So, here's
what's happening, right? The recruiter,
the hiring manager, that leadership
team, they're leaning more into
relationship recruiting than perhaps in
the past, right? because they want and
and even some of your candidates, I see
this more in my tech industry
professionals, they will talk about the
fact that they are going through maybe
more and greater rounds um of the
testing process here in like seven,
eight, nine interview. I'm like what?
Listen, I talked with a candidate this
week um and they are in um sales
enablement and she was saying, "Yeah,
each one of these I'm doing these like
five or six rounds." And I'm just like,
wow. Right. But she's mo mostly for SAS
companies, right? And they want to make
sure like you're not just allowing some
AI tool to produce this presentation.
Like you actually have put some thought
into it and we want to test it in
multiple ways. That's also why you're
seeing the increase in the application
process of the annoying applications
where you're getting open fields where
you have to answer test question
textbased questions in some of the that
because they want to stop you from using
tools like lazy apply which is an AI
tool that allows you to quote unquote
apply in your sleep. Yeah. Side note, if
anybody is listening and can I I long
for the day where one of these tools
that are promising candidates that they
can make the application process more
effective and apply on their behalf. I I
I long for the day to see that give a
true return on investment in terms of
actually getting jobs. I'm not seeing it
yet. I hope for it. I hope for the
technology to get better, but these
tools are not yet doing it. And the
people that are most likely to lean into
those tools, they are being very active,
but it is not productive.
M right. So, you're doing a lot. You've
applied to 400 jobs this week while you
were out playing, you know, tennis.
Okay, great. I'm so glad that you
applied to those 400 jobs.
Awesome. Awesome. However, what's your
ROI on that? Yeah, I mean, there's this
goes to the limitation of relying on AI,
right? And algorithms. Algorithms think
differently than we do. They process
differently than we do. And there are
some things that they won't that that it
won't pick up that we as humans will
pick up. And you have to you have to put
the the nuances where the real
opportunity for AI actually is not in
the just mass reproduce. Right. So if
you don't have any thoughtfulness like
you said those you you were very
intentional and and very uh thoughtful
about the steps one can do and if you
don't if you don't have a process for
it, you're you're you're going to lose
nowadays. Now AI can amplify that stuff
but it can't replace what you have to do
because guess what let's say you even
does work Nicole you get the interview
then then they start interviewing you
and then it's like once they ask you
these questions you come back with a
blank face you know you got to go to
chat GPT in the middle of the interview
like what you going to do like you got
to actually be able to have a dynamic uh
conversation and there are tools that
are doing that as well as we speak today
there are tools that are being sold as a
tool that you can have up next to your
virtual interview and when they ask the
question you can either type it in or it
automatically is listening and then
it'll give you a prompt right so are
particularly companies that are yes yes
it is used it is being used today so
when I say coming back to what I said a
few moments ago the person that is
sitting in the recruiter the hiring
manager that seat they are becoming more
likely to rely on referrals from their
current employees they are more likely
to try to grow somebody inside the
organization and you know go out here in
the wild and get somebody off the street
that they don't know. So if you do not
have a networking strategy in your job
search pocketbook right now or your your
back pocket, you are positioning
yourself to work harder. In fact, I'm
going to tell you something. If right
now when I'm working with somebody that
has over 15 years of professional
experience, that is one of the number
one things that we're just we're
cracking down on that. Okay, what does
your networking strategy look like? And
you've got to customize it based on the
person's personality, right? Um,
however, it can be done and it
unfortunately or fortunately must be
done if you want to shorten the amount
of time it takes to land your next job.
Yeah. So, you know, I want to get to
some uh wrap-up final questions, but one
final followup with that though. There
everybody's not a natural
extrovert like you and I are, right? I
least it feels like you're an extrovert.
Maybe I meet you in person, maybe you're
more introverted, but you feel like very
extroverted. What do you get? What about
those advice to people that aren't
naturally
uh you know uh that aren't naturally out
there engaging with people and they
might have to do some more thoughtful
work or it's harder for them
specifically to network or engage with
people. How do you advise those people
that may have a block or a struggle for
that because I'm sure there's a lot of
people like that too. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. I'm actually an ambbervert
so I'm right in between. Uh and I've
been known to be an introvert whisperer.
So um in first finement we have
meaningful conversations about real
things right so um I will tell you that
most of the time when I'm working with
somebody that is struggling with
networking it's because I have a very
specific definition of networking and it
is um whether this is true or not
business cards at this networking event
a lot of like shallow conversations that
you're having with a whole lot of people
talking about nothing or sch smoozing
right there's a very specific mind image
that those individuals tend to have
about what networking actually means.
Um, if you're a more quiet person,
you're thinking just what you said.
You're very gregarious. You're engaging
everyone in five minutes. And if I can't
do that, then I can't network. Yeah. Not
true. Not true. Networking, the way that
I like to teach it has multiple layers.
Yes, you have the network. The person
that can go into a conference or into a
networking event and connect with, you
know, 20 people and have light
conversations over canipes and like
melon balls wrapped in pushcuto. Like
that's great. I'm glad you can do that,
right? However, networking can also be I
have as an introvert maybe have gone
deeper with fewer people and I have let
my work and my work ethic and my
consistency and my ability to think
internally before externally processing
things show itself and I have built
relationships but they're just real
relationships. Yeah. I don't have a
hundred shallow relationships. I've got
10 real ones. And so what I'm going to
do in my networking is I'm going to
reach out to the 10 real ones. I'm going
to have done some pre-work that Nicole
gave me to do beforehand to prepare a
networking strategy. Networking is not
let me just blast my resume out to 50 of
my closest friends and families. Hey,
I'veorked. Hey, I'm looking for a job.
Here's my resume. Let me know if you
find something. Okay, that's great. But
one of those 10 people can help you.
However, if you are truly executing a
networking strategy, you are actually
sitting down. You're asking for a
meeting that may be, you know, 20 to 30
minutes. Um, and it may be virtual or in
person. And you have some sort of a
structure around what you're hoping to
to get from that meeting. And it's
structured in a way that you're not
asking them to find you a job or to even
know of a job, but you're asking for
guidance. You're asking for specific
details. and you might be asking for
recommendations or referrals to who else
you should talk to, right? So there
there's a there's a there's a there's a
way to do it and it's usually the person
that has a block. They're thinking about
networking a particular way and it's a
very linear way that only works for a
smaller percentage of the population.
Yeah, I think that's that's well said.
And even for those who may be naturally
gregarious and and and and in outreach,
the I think the other side of that is
that if you're not doing it in a way
that's thoughtful and you're not and
you're just talking versus actually y
listening uh versus asking questions
like that that show that you have some
level of interest and that you're that
you actually see that person. Uh it's
not as effective either, I don't think.
So I think even even the people that can
reach out to a lot of different people
uh you need to also hone that skill uh
as well and the like like that's
something that I've learned to get
better at, right? Uh to learn how to ask
the right questions, to learn how to be
a better listener, uh to uh you know be
intentional when I when I when I reach
out to people. Not that I wasn't, but
you know when you've also ran for office
and you've met like I don't even know
how many people like it's it becomes
very hard to do it too. But I've noticed
you make a big difference when you
remember something about somebody,
right? Uh and and then and initially
like I try to ask questions like a
question I I'll ask people like, you
know, like what are you working on that
you're passionate about? Something that
they don't expect at the first time you
meet them versus what do you do? Like
okay, that's such a such a like that's
such a question everybody asks. So one
of one of my strategies is to come up
with a few things that other people
wouldn't ask. And a lot of people think
that people are afraid to be intimate
when you first meet them. But a lot of
people are interested in telling you
about themselves if you ask because most
people don't care about anything other
than themselves. When you ask them,
people are genuinely surprised, right? I
feel like they're like, "Oh, wow." Like,
no one's ever asked me that. I don't
think that's that novel of a question.
When I ask that to people, you know,
they they really get surprised. So, I
got some novel questions for you to to
kind of wrap up towards the end here.
So, uh, okay. If the last five years of
your life was a chapter in a book, what
would that have been about?
The It would be about pivoting. It would
be about
responding and it would be about trend
trend spotting, right? Um
and it would also be about passion. I
started doing video content and actually
launched the first season of a podcast
when I
um realized that what I had to say
was more important than me learning how
to get the light right um or how to
figure out the microphone or how to um
whether I was going to mess it up.
Right. the message was greater than my
insecurities about whether I could
figure it out. And what nobody realizes
is that you don't get to this level of
the production that you have or the what
you have going on unless you're willing
to do a trash job the first two or five
episodes. Yeah. Right. You don't get to
that level unless or 10. Honestly, I was
gonna say 10, but I didn't. Like really
like if you're not willing to do 10,
right? If you're not willing to do 10
bad videos, right? 10 bad, you know,
YouTube shorts, you're not willing to
put out content that only your mom
watches,
then you know what? Quite frankly, maybe
the message and the passion isn't big
enough. Right. Exactly. Um, and this
also, I think, comes back to like that
that having to lean into a growth
mindset. I have to have something to say
to people in this in this in this
environment.
So that's the last five years. That's
what the book would be about. The last
five months, honestly, Rob, the book
would be about one thing, emotional
management.
That's it. That's the that would be the
the highlight of the book because how do
you define emotional management? Great.
Being able to set boundaries about what
you're going to internally consume or
what you're going to consume mentally,
right? Guarding my eye gates and my ear
gates against things that I am not yet
in an emotional emotionally regulated
place to be able to um receive in a way
that's going to be serve be of good of
service to me or to others. And that's
hard. It is hard right now in the age of
social media and and the craziness all
day every day 10 times a day. Exactly.
Realistically, right? like I've really
had to just literally just in the past
five months just recognize
you may be familiar with um someone
named Mel Robbins. She is an author,
podcaster. We all know her. She has her
book this year is called Let Them. Um
and I'm going to tell you, I feel like
it was the book that 2025 we didn't know
that we needed, but it's the message we
needed. At some point, we we're here
now, right? We're here now. Like as a
nation, we said, "Okay, January 6, 2021.
Maybe that wasn't a big deal. Let's go
ahead and do it again. And now we're
here reaping the benefits of this.
Right. So, here we are in these streets
and
I have to just let them Yeah. I have to
I have to let them let it be what it's
going to be so that we can say, "Okay,
so we've done this. Now, are we finished
with this exercise? Can we move on to
something that makes sense?" or if there
are things that are making sense because
I do think somewhere in the there there
was a there is a
there's a mindset behind what the
decisions that are being made by our
current administration and I I I get it
on one level like how do we reduce we
cannot keep kicking the can of debt down
the road it is not it's not sustainable
and we cannot keep spending money
willy-nilly worrying about someone else
the next generation figuring it out,
right? I get the mindset and also how do
we do this without taxing the wealthiest
people because why do they have to pay
the bill for everybody else? I so I
understand the mindset, right, of why it
is. And I feel like that's where I think
sometimes we forget. Yeah. Um, however,
it's not the mindset, it is the process
and the way it's being done and the lack
of change management and sensitivity to
the fact that you're dealing with
humans, not robots. And the fact that
there is a way that things get done and
it doesn't get done in five seconds. No.
And if you do try to do it in five
seconds, here are where here's where we
are today. Yes. You can cause more
damage. Uh I will say this to a broader
point of um protecting your emotional
energy and your emotional space. Um you
know, news has always been triggering
right before even social media, right?
But news is to the brain what sugar is
to the body, right? It feels good in
quick hits, but it's toxic long term.
So, we have to remember that as we
absorb news and I think the people that
that are doing this understand what
they're doing in terms of uh sparking
emotion. It's a it's always been an
effective uh strategy for uh rallying
the masses. People are easily triggered
when they're in their feelings and when
things are are framed and nothing's as
simple as they make it out to be. But
how we consume media now even more than
we have in the past. 24 hours uh 24-hour
news when that first started was
actually triggering. Now we have
instantaneous news, breaking news,
breaking news, breaking news, breaking
news every like nobody can absorb this
stuff, right? Yeah. So you have to
preserving that emotional space and by
the way that goes for even even people
that enjoy what is happening. Yeah. It
looks like they are going mad too. So
I'm saying there's no there's no good
pol there's nothing good about
overabsorbing information and I don't
believe if I have to tell like advice
what you need to do to absorb
information anything you get on a quick
hit on the internet that sparks you stop
because when you have fear or anger it
is not a true depiction of how you
actually feel or what's going on and the
and and the goal with that is to trigger
you to not think and so Like it's
natural for us to do this. This is this
is human nature. Yeah. But we're going
to have to work harder than ever in the
age of algorithms, uh, social media when
we have entities that are, uh, you know,
unfortunately the other side of this
entities that care about nothing else
other than to maximize engagement. And
that's right. Maximizing engagement
means currently uh, maximizing outrage,
maximizing making people feel bad
because that actually keeps you more in
tune. So you gota you got to let them as
you said and you got to let yourself be
and let that stuff go. We can't we can't
do nothing about all that all of it. You
got to just take care of what you can in
your community. All right, more
questions before we wrap up here. What
is an important truth you have that very
few people may agree with you on
that this too shall pass. Right. Um
I
it could be the type of individual that
I am working with today. Um at this
point in my career, the vast majority of
my clients are at the director, senior
director, vice president level. They are
either in career transition, i.e. they
were laid off with no choice of their
own or they are in a leadership role
trying to figure out and develop their
leadership skills because they are
leading through things that none of us
have seen before. Right? Those are
that's who I serve. Let's talk about the
person in career transition. Many times
that person has a financial runway of
you know six months, a year, two years.
They may never have to worry about
finances. A lot of the emotional manage
the emotional stress of job search is
things that they are not in their
reality. Um so helping someone recognize
that this too shall pass that you will
work again. But it will not happen if
going back to the earlier point, you are
just being tossed to and fro based on
whatever headline or you know LinkedIn
story you just listened to or whatever
the case may be. Um this will pass. We
will work again. We will get through
this as a nation. Absolutely. If we meet
a year from now, what are we going to be
celebrating?
A year from now, what we will be
celebrating? Um I have two things. Uh I
have been working very slowly on a book
um that deals with all things related to
the things that stop people from having
success in their professional lives.
Right? It's the foundation of everything
that I do. Um there are eight or 10
places there 10 places that people tend
to most often be um stopped in in
professional success. So we'll be
celebrating that book uh coming being
being complete and coming to market. And
the second thing we'll be celebrating, I
am in the midst right now of doing a
massive pivot in the way that I do work.
I I love being able to work with
individuals. Uh and I am at the place in
my life professionally and also
personally um where I want to have a
bigger impact and I want to work more
directly with companies and directly
working with the leadership in
companies. And so pivoting my business
towards more of a a B2B model
specifically um in a way that I have not
done it before. Uh so that will look a
little bit different and I'll be
celebrating seeing some wins. I've
already had a couple of wins this year
but more intentionally f focusing in on
that. Yeah. Nicole Dumbar with
Congruency International. It's been a
pleasure having you on. Um don't make
yourself a stranger. Please join the
community. I hope you actually uh come
to Midwest Con. you would make a I would
make you a convenor of some of the some
of those companies you can meet if you
want to come.
Love to have you. Uh but definitely this
was a great episode. Lots of great
nuggets here. Appreciate you coming on
and keep disrupting. Thank you.
[Music]