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Discover The Humanity of Homelessness, a podcast from Church at the Park that brings you honest, heartfelt conversations with people experiencing homelessness, community leaders, and staff.
John Marshall | 00:06
On paper, the peer support role is intended to be a companion to our participants who have to navigate the system to help set appointments, to go to the doctor, to help make sense of what the doctor is telling them, help maintain a schedule and a calendar and appointments and look for jobs, et cetera. Yes. Which is all very task-oriented. And I love that for you, the beauty exists in between the.
Ruth Kruger | 00:36
Tasks. Yes. Yes, because really there's time, first of all, and When people come in, If we just focus on the task, we're done in 10 minutes and out they go. And I have time for more than that. And most of the time, people want more connection than that. And usually I can sense who that is and when. And often they come in with a story to tell or they come in and sit down and seem to need a place to rest. And so we connect and then the story comes forward. And a peer support is someone with shared living experience. And I have that experience. I have the poverty, I have the trauma, I have the abuse. I have my own mental health difficulties as well. Having grown up with trauma, I have lifelong depression. And it's in remission. Healthy. It still shows its head sometimes, you know, that's, something that I have to actively work on. And so I'm able to relate to people and help them. Walk with them. I can't give them therapy, but I can be their friend. Yes. People, yes, need the practical support. More than anything coming in, especially if you've been living in your car or in a tent, or especially as a woman, you've led a violent relationship or have been kicked out of your house. You need a listening ear. You need someone who cares. You need to sit and process some trauma. And just take a deep breath.
John Marshall | 04:12
Well, Ruth, thank you. For making time. And being willing. To share your story and experience and wisdom. Usually the place that I like to start conversation is by asking someone to share their earliest memory of home or where the first place they called home was and what life was like in that place. Place Okay.
So as you think of your earliest years, Where do you start your story of being human? What's the first place you called home?
Ruth Kruger | 04:40
Well, I grew up in San Diego. And so everybody says, what are you doing here? San Diego, that's awesome. Beaches and sunshine. Yes, and it's not a great place to live when you're poor. And so my first memories of childhood are in what I would call a ghetto. We lived in an apartment complex for low-income people. And Not that that's all bad. We had a place to live, and I'm very thankful for that I had shelter there. But it was hard. There were gangs. There was gang violence. There were shootings. There were... Very difficult situations. It was a hard place to live. And so, Even growing up and having moved out of that complex at about eight years old, I still dealt with a lot. My middle school, there were gang fights after school. There were stabbings. There were very difficult things in the area of San Diego.
John Marshall | 05:39
When you moved out, you stayed in San Diego?
Ruth Kruger | 05:42
Yes. And the areas that we could afford to live in San Diego were really rough. And so people don't think of that when they think of San Diego. They think of white sandy beaches and the San Diego Zoo, and they don't think about the people that have to live in Rough neighborhoods.
John Marshall | 05:57
Did you grow up with siblings?
Ruth Kruger | 05:59
I did. There were five of us all together. One boy and four girls. And where are you in the order? I'm number four out of five. Yes, I was number four in five years as a matter of fact. And so I think about that a lot and how much time my mother of 25 years old could possibly have for a newborn when she had a two, three and four year old.
John Marshall | 06:22
And were both mom and dad home and part of your world growing up?
Ruth Kruger | 06:28
Yeah, both of them were home in all of my world until my parents divorced when I was eight years old.
John Marshall | 06:35
Did that precipitate the move out of that first apartment complex?
Ruth Kruger | 06:39
No, that happened earlier. My dad was disabled. I think he worked when I was very little or before I was born. But he was disabled, and I never understood why. I always thought it had something to do with maybe his back or something, although I don't remember there being anything wrong with his back. I think I just made that up. I understand now that he had mental health difficulties. He had either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. I'm not sure which because diagnoses weren't very – accurate in the 70s. He was a severe alcoholic.
So there was a lot of turmoil in my childhood between his psychotic experiences and his alcoholism.
John Marshall | 07:24
I'm curious what growing up as number four out of five in a home that Sounds like it included some stability and some love. But in the midst of poverty and Yeah. A dad who had his own challenges and a mom who's trying to raise four, How did you start to make sense of your place and your value within your family system in the midst of.
Ruth Kruger | 07:53
All that? - Yeah, I didn't feel much sense of place and value, honestly. It wasn't very positive at all. My dad was abusive. My mom was cooperative with that when I was really little. I never knew for sure what would get me in trouble. One time a neighbor falsely accused my sister of and me of using a bad word and went to our house and told our parents and we got beat for it.
You know, I'm talking beat like a belt on the backside while my mom watched. And so that wasn't the only time that happened. And it was certainly more than one slot with that belt. It was multiple. And, you know, one time it happened because I was little, maybe five and went to the beach with my friend and her dad told us we could play in the water but not get our shorts wet.
Well, We were five, we got our shorts wet, so I got beat. That was a common occurrence in my early childhood. And there were other things too that my dad did that were very unsettling. He used fear a lot. I was terrified throughout my childhood until I guess it was eight or nine when he left. And, I was terrified of him. I was terrified of life because of the things that he did to me and said to me. And the things that he did to my mother were horrific. And I witnessed all of those.
So I have a lot of trauma over those years of childhood. And, my siblings were not a comfort to me. They went through it, too. I don't remember what they went through, but I know they went through their own things. I remember a few stories here and there of things that happened, but mostly remember my own. And as a child, I withdrew into myself. I went for all of first grade without speaking a single word unless I absolutely had to. I was completely silent. It wasn't safe to talk.
John Marshall | 09:52
Yeah. Were there any places... Through your childhood and through middle school and high school where you found like you had safety and space to be a normal kid.
Ruth Kruger | 10:04
Yeah, when I was about seven, we moved out of that ghetto. And I don't know how we did it, But we moved into this house, this old house in Imperial Beach, California, a suburb of San Diego, very close to the beach. And this house, I think it had once been a farmhouse and was one of the few houses remaining that still had some property.
So we had a big front yard and a backyard and a back backyard, we called it, which was an old field for farming. And there were trees and plants overgrown everywhere. And so that was my escape. I'd climb to the top of the tree. It's called a pepper tree. And the branches kind of hang down and around you when you climb to the top limbs and I would climb up there and hide from everybody and just sit up there and watch everybody running around outside escape from it all and that was my refuge we had a side yard in the front with overgrown citrus trees and tall grass and I would just hide in there and eat a sour tangerine or suck on a lemon and I escaped into nature. I could walk to the beach and just would be in the water. And as I got older, I had my billy board and just diving under the waves and riding them into shore.
Something powerful about the lift and the power of a wave of the ocean. That's where I think I connected to God and connected to life was in nature.
John Marshall | 11:37
I'm not surprised by that. I'm not surprised that Escape was the strategy for survival. And that what you escaped into I mean, the fact that it's nature, this large overwhelming presence in the world that you can almost disappear into. And I think of the humans that we serve and the way that escaping out into natural areas is... Their own strategy for survival. I have questions in my brain about how you make sense or connection between your own journey and the people that you serve. What I'm really curious about right now, though, is... I don't currently know you to be someone who runs away from pain and trauma. I see and experience you as someone who's very present and very willing. Right. To set particularly with others and their shit.- And you've... You've been gracious to let me into moments of your own pain. And none of it has felt like your attempt to escape anything, but actually to... Run toward the darkness and the chaos of and to seek healing.
So there's got to be some part of your story that is this redemptive arc. Yes. Where the child who used to run away now has this capacity to run toward Right. My assumption... Partly based on the little that you've shared of your own story with me is that redemptive arc is not linear. Right.
So I'm curious what parts of the in-between chapters, the early adulthood through however you got to today. What are the chapters that help you make sense of that? Narrative from going from I'm going to escape to... I'm now this person who can sit and be present to Right.
Ruth Kruger | 13:40
- - Right, so the first answer is God.
Ruth Kruger | 13:45
And There was a time where I would have said, "God and only God," and now I say, "God and." God and lots of hard, honest work in therapy, digging deep in therapy. And I still do it every single week. God and people who love me, learning who To trust as friends and being able to connect with people at a soul level, God as the source of love that never condemns and never judges. And loves me just the way I am. When I first learned about God, I learned about a God who expected me to be a certain way. I wanted so badly to be the person that God wanted me to be that I began to live my life by a list of rules. And eventually I became tired of that list of rules. And felt like there must be another way. And so I explored and I asked God to show me new ways of being and new ways of understanding God. And little by little, I grew in my faith and my understanding of God to be different than the list of rules. I found new freedom for myself in that. New faith expression, I found my way back to nature. The place I'm closest to God right now is on my patio early in the morning when the birds are singing, and I can't wait for spring to come back. I'm so tired of it being dark in the morning and not hearing the birds. I can't wait. But that's my closest connection to God again, just like it was when I was a child riding that wave or sitting in the top of a tree. And, I see now where God was with me throughout and has been a part of this incredible journey. And a while back, I started wondering, I know we can never define God. I've realized that I can never define God. I cannot put God into boxes and say, "This is exactly who God is and what God is like." The minute I think I can do that, I've tricked myself, and I've very much so fallen short of what it's all about.
Well.
John Marshall | 16:13
I think God has a habit, too, of breaking our boxes in the moments where we've... Put in the final nail.
Ruth Kruger | 16:21
Perhaps. Exactly. And I had my boxes broken a lot recently in my life. And I began to ask God, how can I even see you? How can I even know you anymore? And someone shared with me this insight that In the Lord's Prayer, the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke when he said, Our Father, was actually... Mother and father and interpretation for father was Abba or Papa. And for mother actually means birther of the cosmos.
So that's what I hold on to right now is mother and papa. That's how I address God, the person who birthed me. And I picture this divine being bringing forth life, all life, including my own. And this Father, for God, has always been hard for me because of my abuse. But when I think of Papa, I think of this gentle, older father who looks at a child with love in their eyes, deep love, a smile, kind of wrinkles around the eyes and I'm okay with that now.
Yeah.
John Marshall | 17:34
In my own faith journey, it's been helpful for me to remember that all language is metaphor. And that even in the moments where I find myself imagining you know, Yeah. The white bearded guy on a cloud. For a moment, there is something helpful about that image because That's the very first image I ever had.
So it's familiarity and there's safety and discomfort. God likes to break that image in that box and God will show up to me in the form of mother, of nurturer, of comforter. As the protective mother hen who has me under her wing and it has been healing in my own journey to allow each of these sort of metaphors and these images to just sit side by side each other like patches on a quilt. And I... I wonder, I mean, you talked about God, the rule, the ruler as kind of your first image. Right. And I... Want to know more about what caused that image to break. What was it that was insufficient? About that metaphor for God.
Ruth Kruger | 18:52
Right. Well, for one thing, I did my best to follow all the rules, and at some point in time, the rules let me down. The following of the rules: be a good mother, be a good wife, listen to the pastors, do what you're told. Those kind of And, you know, they went a little further.
Ruth Kruger | 19:12
I was in a church that... Kind of dictated a lot of my life. Believe this, believe that. Don't watch this kind of movie. Don't listen to this kind of music. It was a lot. And be in church every time the doors are open. And I gave my whole self to that. Be home with your kids, you know, everything. I gave my whole life to that. And When my youngest kid was 13 years old, she became very ill with mental illness and It was devastating. And The realization was, or the fact was, that I needed to have her treated. And My church believed and told me that if she only knew how much God loved her, she would be okay. And that seeking treatment from the wisdom of the world like psychiatrists was not the answer. To pray more. And, you know, at first I felt some support and then I started seeing people pull away as I did things. To seek treatment that they didn't agree with. And my husband, didn't want her taking medications when medications were saving her life. Quite literally, that's not a dramatic statement. That's a true statement.
And then I realized, okay, first of all, either following all the rules got me nowhere and left me Completely devastated because I raised my children the way I was supposed to and things weren't going right. So God broke God's end of the deal. Or those rules were never imposed. On me from God in the first place. Because the thing is, I'm either going to obey my husband the way I've been told to and not treat her medically, Or I'm going to... Treat her. And save her life.
So I broke the rules. I became a rebel. To save my daughter's life.
John Marshall | 21:28
you broke the boxes.
Ruth Kruger | 21:29
I broke the boxes. And what I began to realize as I broke those boxes, and at the same time, I went to college for the first time. I was in my 40s. And I began to learn about some pretty amazing people out there in the world who definitely broke the boxes, you know, writers who are gay.
You know, who write some pretty amazing things and, you know, about science instead of the seven day literal creation and geology and things that I loved and became passionate about that were so different than what I had learned. And so I did. I became a rebel. Against the rules that had been imposed on me and began to think for myself and see that I could find value in other things. I didn't have to embrace them wholeheartedly, but I could if I wanted to. I could be who I wanted to be. Move forward with my life and use my mind and think for myself. And that nothing bad happened, that actually life became more rich and more full for me. And so that's when I became kind of, free from the rules. First I was disillusioned, and then all of a sudden I was free.
John Marshall | 22:46
That language of free feels very congruent with the way I think of how you inhabit the space I share with you at Church of the Park. I see someone who's very attuned to herself and that attunement frees you to be present to others. In ways that they really need a companion in the world. And I still... I have these catalogs of questions popping into my brain about your experience at Church of the Park. I still want to know a little bit more of the timeline of your life. Right.
So... Just briefly, I'm curious, how do you get Where do you go after San Diego? How long do you stay in San Diego? Where do you go from.
Ruth Kruger | 23:32
There? Right. San Diego, all the way through high school, got married at. On the day after my 19th birthday to a man nine years older than me who I shouldn't have married, but you know, I had three wonderful children out of that, lived my conservative Christian life. Got divorced in my 40s after I went through my rebellious stage and finally left what was an abusive and inappropriate marriage. Went to school, graduated from OSU, got my own little apartment, got a job, ended up in the Episcopal Church and worked in the church for quite a while, became ordained. Recently left that. What a journey. Came to Oregon when I was 20... 26, yep, came to Oregon and enjoy living a life more in nature and slower paced and with less emphasis on materialism and money and more relaxed. Really love it here, still love it here. And... Where are we going?
John Marshall | 24:39
Yeah. That's great. I wanted the brief timeline from San Diego to now. There's Yeah.
Ruth Kruger | 24:45
The brief timeline. There's a lot in between there that I didn't go over, but you kind of have the picture.
John Marshall | 24:51
I know that when We talk about lived experience of homelessness you resist a little bit of that categorization. You're kind of, I think some of the language you've used with me is almost like, Homeless Adjacent. Yes.
So clearly there's housing and security somewhere in that journey. Can you share a little bit about where that experience shows up and how it impacts your understanding of your own self?
Ruth Kruger | 25:22
Yeah, housing insecurity as far as being poor, just not having money. And that continued on into my marriage. And especially with the years of being at home as a young mom and, you know, That I did, again, because I was told that that's what good Christian moms do. They stay home with their kids and the husband is the breadwinner. And so I did. And we tithed 10% of our income and we struggled. And so we were able to stay home. Housed most of that time for about a year and a half. We lived with two different friends.
So I did not know that technically is homelessness. And it is. We were housed. But we were not in our own house. We were couch surfing.
So in a bedroom. Yeah.
Yeah. With our kids.
Yeah.
John Marshall | 26:15
Is that all five of you in a bedroom?
Ruth Kruger | 26:17
All five of us in a bedroom, yes. Yes, all five of us in a bedroom. Yes. And in the first situation, our youngest hadn't been born yet.
So it was four and then it was five. Yeah. And, there were times where we couldn't pay our rent. And we got behind and it was scary. And fortunately, we had a landlord who let us pay less for a while until we were able to get on our feet. I do remember as a child when my mom first got divorced, the landlord coming and knocking on the door every month. And... Not really understanding, but her stepping outside and talking to him and coming in very quiet and serious for quite some time.
So I know there were times of housing insecurity. I am very thankful that I've always had a place to live. That house with the big yard, yards, that was so wonderful, it had a leaky ceiling. And I thought it was the greatest thing in the world. Every time it rained, which it does sometimes in San Diego, we got out the pots and pans and bowls and put them all over the house to catch the water. And we had mice and lizards and cockroaches.
John Marshall | 27:27
Did that feel like adventure?
Ruth Kruger | 27:29
It did feel like an adventure. It did. I know my mom hated it. She cried at night. I could hear her. I'm sure it felt like an awful thing to have her children in a house like that, but it didn't bother me.
Yeah, so there's been housing insecurity. And when I first got divorced, I had no idea where I would go.
Someone even suggested to me, I stayed in my husband's house and basically rented the bedroom from him. We were divorced. It was hostile. I did not want to be there. And someone suggested to me that I might consider a homeless shelter in order to get out of that environment. I didn't. I ended up getting a job and being able to rent a 400 square foot apartment, my first place I ever lived in on my own. It was a dump. But I did it.
So I'm... I'm grateful for that.
John Marshall | 28:33
As I... Attempt to hold the totality of your story kind of as one picture in my brain, I hear really common or I hear similar themes that I encounter in the stories of the folks that we serve at Church of the Park, which is very often a very chaotic and unstable place. Home as a child. Violent, and/or aggressive and/or abusive relationships with close family members. Very often broken marriages. And.. There's this reality of having friends who allowed you to stay in a bedroom. A husband who I don't know what word you want to use, but you could stay. You had a roof over your head.
Ruth Kruger | 29:26
Right. And, Yes. And it was with. Hope on his part that I would want to stay or go back to the marriage. And it was with advancements on his part, if can put it delicately.
John Marshall | 29:39
Yeah, I understand.
Yeah. I hear landlords who are willing to be somewhat flexible and patient So the question that I'm coming to is, So often in this line of work, I get the question of what creates homelessness or why homelessness exists in the first place. At Church of the Park, Our kind of go-to line is that it's fundamentally a symptom of broken relationships. And part of what I'm seeing in your story is there are places where you were kind of on the edge and it was another human being who gave an ounce of space for you in their world.- And I'm wondering If there are other ways when you look back at that story in your life. Where you start to name specific things that prevented you from living in a tent or living in a shelter or experiencing homelessness more intensely than just couch surfing.
Like what for you were the ingredients and the factors of your life that provided ounces of stability. If there are any that you can name.
Ruth Kruger | 30:58
I'm a little stumped with that. I do know... My husband always worked as hard as he could. That was one value he had was hard work. At one point in time, I did get a job and that helped. I don't know.
You know, there was a time where I would say the grace of God, but I don't believe that anymore because the truth is that every single person, including all those that we work with, those beautiful people we work with who... Have found themselves without housing have the grace of God.
So... I don't know.
John Marshall | 31:29
My bias as I listen to you is other people were willing to make space for you.
So often I hear someone share their story of how they ended up living outside or in their car and it's, yeah, I was couch-surfing for a while and then that friend lost their house and that put me out too where they had to make space for their uncle to live with them and that meant that I couldn't be on the couch or I was behind on rent and my landlord didn't allow me to make prorated payments. There's so many of these places where it just takes another human being having some capacity for it. Patience and support and help. And so part of that is I'm praising the reality of humans in your world as broken as they may have been. For that capacity, I'm celebrating the goodness of God. That your story includes those layers. And I agree with you that the fact that someone does end up living outside or in a tent or on a sidewalk. Does not for a single second mean that God has abandoned them or has not extended grace or does not continually look upon them with favor and love.
Ruth Kruger | 32:46
Right. And thank you for pointing that out because there were times in our lives when our children were young that people gave us money. People we went to church with would just say, I have this extra money in my wallet. It's for you.
You know, where did that come from? Just human kindness. People do good things for each other sometimes and I'm very grateful for that.
John Marshall | 33:12
I'm grateful for it too. I'm grateful that you are a human who has kindness to give others.
So now I'm really curious. To know how you start to allow your story to influence your approach to your work at Church of the Park? Start with just what is your role? Right. And when you show up in our space, what do you tell yourself you're here to do.
Ruth Kruger | 33:35
So... On my way into work every day. I say I'm here today. To help whoever comes. My way. In any way I can. And so what that generally means is walking alongside someone, having a conversation.
Sometimes it's practical things. Sometimes it's making doctor's appointments or arranging rides to those doctor's appointments. Your support.
John Marshall | 34:01
Your official role is peer support, correct.
Ruth Kruger | 34:05
At the Monmouth House, Yeah. And it's great. I work with people of various ages, mostly older women my age or maybe a little younger than me. And I really enjoy that. A lot of times people really just want some emotional support when they find out the kind of person I am, that I'm a person of compassion, that I like to hear stories and have something helpful to say, I hope. Then they come back and they listen. And Matt, the chaplain, and I share an office and we have a nice Keurig set up with some really good coffee. And so we always give them a cup of coffee and they sit and we talk and That's my favorite thing I do.
You know, all the little logistical stuff has to be done. And I'm glad to do it because people do need to go to the doctor or get their ID card or, you know, all those little things are important, of course, towards their future. But it's the talking, it's the sharing of stories, it's the listening and the reassuring that matter most.
John Marshall | 35:06
On paper, the peer support role is intended to be a companion to our participants who have to navigate the system, so to speak. Correct. To help set appointments, to go to the doctor, to help make sense of what the doctor is telling them. Right. And words that they can understand to help maintain a schedule and a calendar and appointments and look for jobs, etc., etc., which is all... Very task-oriented activity and I love that for you the beauty exists between the tasks.
Ruth Kruger | 35:46
Yes. Yes, because really there's time, first of all, and When people come in, If we just focus on the task, we're done in 10 minutes and out they go. And I have time for more than that. And most of the time people want more connection than that. And usually I can sense who that is and when. Often they come in with a story to tell, or they come in and sit down and seem to need a place to rest. And so we connect and then the story comes forward. And a peer support is someone with shared living experience. And I have that I have the poverty, I have the trauma, I have the abuse. I have my own mental health difficulties as well. Having grown up with trauma, I have lifelong depression. And it's in remission. Healthy. It still shows its head sometimes, you know, that's, something that I have to actively work on. And so I'm able to relate to people and help them. Walk with them. I can't give them therapy, but I can be their friend. Yes. I can be their peer. And Absolutely.
John Marshall | 36:58
You can still be an empathetic witness to their reality.
Ruth Kruger | 37:03
Absolutely. And I find that people, yes, need the practical support more than anything coming in, especially if you've been living in your car or in a tent or especially as a woman, you've led a violent relationship or have been kicked out of your house. You need a listening ear.
Yeah. You need someone who cares. You need to sit and process some trauma.
Yeah. And just take a deep breath.
John Marshall | 37:31
Our Monmouth house is dedicated to individuals living in Polk County, and we spend a lot of time proactively connecting with individuals in the rural parts of Polk County. And my very own limited exposure to the reality of homelessness is that homelessness is homelessness. Rural poverty still comes with its own unique challenges and stories, often time rural homelessness, is less visible. Right. And so sharing the need for support and infrastructure is a bit more challenging. Right. I'm really curious as you sit and you listen to the individuals in that house, if you notice anything about their experiences and their stories that's worth highlighting as of like, as a particularly illuminating layer to rural homelessness in Polk.
Ruth Kruger | 38:37
County. Yes, a couple of things. Many of the women in our shelter are coming because of broken marriages. A relationship ends and they find themselves without housing. For the first time in their lives in their 50s or even 60s. Many of the people, especially the younger ones who have been living in their cars or trying to stay unseen but end up seen here and there, end up visible. Are not treated very well. In Polk County. Not treated very well.
Some of them end up in trouble with the law because people are treating them poorly and incidents happen. And, they end up in trouble.
Yeah, it's not a... There's no good place to be without housing. And it is especially a difficult place to be without housing.
John Marshall | 39:38
Curious how you... Find intersection in your own stories and experiences of trauma and the stories and experiences of trauma in those stories. At the Monmouth Shelter. And the ways that we as Church of the Park as an institution are trying to provide trauma-informed care Can you just share... For the casual listener who's interested to know what's unique or special about Church of the Park and our approach. To this work? What are the things that you just love getting to say is true about our environment and that you like representing.
Ruth Kruger | 40:18
Yes. Yes, trauma-informed care. Doesn't ask what's wrong with you, it asks what has happened to you. And I can't tell you how many times in my life if someone had said to me, "Why are you acting that way? Why are you doing that?" Instead of saying, "Why are you acting that way? Why are you doing that? Why are you crying? What has happened to you? What's going on to make you so sad?" Would have been so much more helpful. And so having that perspective makes all the difference as a peer support. When someone comes in crying or someone comes in distressed, the question I ask myself is, what has happened in this person's life to bring them to this place? And I have learned that through Church at the Park and our trainings. What has happened? What is going on to bring this person to this place? And I might be able to ask them that and learn a little bit about it. I might not. It might just be...
Something that I remain curious about, but I know that something has happened. And so there's never a judgment. There's never a, wow, stop. There's a. Wow, something is going on here and how can I help? What can I do to be a part of helping this person feel secure and safe?
John Marshall | 41:37
One of the humans in the world that inspires the work we do is Father Greg Boyle out of Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles. He, one of his... Lines that I love is that in this type of work. The sort of compassion we seek is one that stands in awe of the burdens that humans have to carry rather than in judgment at how they carry them. Yes. And I hear in The answer you just gave, this subtle but profound shift from judgment into judgment. Awe and reverence at the fact that a human being can withstand and endure and still show up and try to make a place for themselves in the world. In my own experience, so often the trying is messy and complicated and can include layers that we might call illegal, Like, yeah. And yet it's all, you know, it's this attempt at survival, at making a place in the world, at carving out some corner of the earth where they're not worried about who might hurt them. Right.
Ruth Kruger | 42:49
You know, I'm still learning this about myself. I'm still telling little girl Ruth, who was abused by dad and terrified as a child and not protected by mom, you're safe. You're okay. You're liked just the way you are. You're a good person. You have a voice. You're going to be okay. I still tell her that. She's still growing to learn that and to trust that. And as that happens more and more, the more I talk to her, the more I mirror kindness to her, the more I'm able to do it for other people. And I've had so much growth in that over the last couple of years. And even the last six months, I've had tremendous opportunity for that. And as that happens, I find myself able to give it more and more to other people, to be a mirror of kindness and love to them.
John Marshall | 43:39
Yeah, I'm grateful for that. And it reminds me how when we started out, when Church of the Park started out doing manage camping and, you know, This emergency sheltering and micro-sheltering and trying to create community, low barrier community. One of the premises of the design for our programs was watching that pattern happen over and over again. And people where If we could invite them into a space where they could exit survival mode, where they could take a deep breath, where their nervous systems could relax, and they could lock their belongings behind the door and trust that those belongings were going to be there when they showed up, when they knew that there was a roof over their head and a shower that they could access and laundry machines... And a meal every day that they like in that space. Where the first message was, "You are okay." No one's asking you to change right now. Just come Be loved. Everything else about their story that needed problem solving became infinitely easier to tackle. Once all of those first priorities were met. Including the message of You are good and you are loved and you are valuable and you belong here. Right. That storyline starting from a place of like radical acceptance and allowing the healing process of acceptance then lead into transformation is really different from a another common or popular story of change that starts from the place of naming what's wrong and saying you have to change you have to get your shit together before you can belong in community you have to get sober you have to get housing you have to get work and then the world will help you One of the things that I find really compelling about Church of the Park and why I love being a part of our community is that within that community, shift of perspective. Moving out of the place of condemnation or out of the place of naming what's wrong to the place of naming what's right and what's good. As we are trying to add on to that this layer of spiritual sensitivity and generosity and compassion, recognizing that one layer of trauma that our community has endured is spiritual trauma.- And we don't want to give an image of God that has the belt in hand. Right. And the list of rules and the love and the compassion and grace that is accessible only when someone gets their act together. We want to start with your love just as you are.
And then the magic for us is watching what happens. As that truth sinks in. And I am wondering for you as someone who has used the language of trauma and abuse in your own story, as someone who has even held religious authority.
You know, positions of authority, in various communities as someone who has allowed herself to rethink her own image of God. Where do you find... Light and goodness and hope. In that whole mix of human-ness. Where someone is trying to make sense of their value in the world. And we as an institution are trying to offer a place to encounter a god. But wanting it to be. A little bit more compassionate than other places in the world.
Ruth Kruger | 47:29
Right, so it's what I love about us most, what I absolutely love about us most, low barrier. What a great. Thing to find out about Church at the Park, low barrier. You don't have to do this, you don't have to do that to be housed, to be loved, to be fed. Jesus didn't require those things. Jesus didn't say, do this and I'll feed you. Do that. And I'll heal you. Just brought people in. He just brought people in. He partied with them. He ate with them. He healed them. He loved them. He spoke to them. He cared for them. And I certainly am no better than Jesus. And so I will follow that example. And I'm so... I'm amazed and grateful to be a part of a church that does the same thing.
So I think this works. I think it works. And some people know that that's in our title. And I've had a few residence guests say, you know, well, I'm trying to live a good Christian life or I'm a good person. And, you know, I reassure them. I think part of it is because of who we are. They hear the name church and they think they need to somehow live up to it. Or impress us, make sure that they sound okay to us. And my response is always, you know. God loves you right where you're at. That's good. I'm happy for you. And right where you're at is good. Right where you're at. I love that we don't Preach a sermon before we give food. I love that we don't ask people to come to A prayer. Service. But a community circle instead. They want to come to a prayer service, great, but it's not something we require. They don't have to hear a sermon before they eat. They don't have to say a prayer in a group before they partake of their supper. People are where they are. And the thing is that My belief is that God dwells richly in every single person, whether they know it or not, whether they believe it or not, whether they call themselves Christian or Buddhist or Muslim or atheist. God dwells in every person because every person is created in the image of God. And so... To dishonor anybody is to dishonor God.
So I believe in our work of honoring all people. And not requiring anything beyond what they're able to do at this point in time, which is always the best they can. Always. If there's a reason why someone is not doing better than we think they should, or if they are not doing better than we think they should, there is a reason for it.
So instead of saying, do this, let's say, what's the reason? And how can we help you with that reason? What's going on under the surface? And what can we do to bring healing to that? What can we do to help you know that you're loved so that God can bring healing to that?
John Marshall | 50:33
I can imagine someone hearing that explanation of our culture and our environment and going, Well, how do you get people to change? And I'm so curious. How you might respond to that. Question.
Ruth Kruger | 50:50
People change when people are ready to change, and trying to force someone to change by giving them a reward is not going to work. If you stop using, I'll give you a home. If you stay sober today, I'll give you something to eat is not going to work. I studied elementary education before I changed my mind when I did my first practicum. And one of the things we learned is was from a man whose philosophy involved the punishment of rewards. And it talked about intrinsic value of learning, that instead of dangling this piece of candy in front of a child's face to get them to do their schoolwork or to learn this lesson, we teach them internally what it means to learn. We give them a reward of discovering the lesson for themselves, discovering the learning for themselves. Instead of constantly rewarding them externally, and then they have no value in what they learned. Let people find their way. Let people know that they're loved and secure and safe and they'll find their way.
John Marshall | 51:56
I can't help but think of The start of our conversation is you were sharing the environment of your childhood home and the way in which fear was the main motivator. Yeah. And how that Fear, as a motivator, forced you to find places of escape. Yes. You ran away from community. Yes. Because fear was... How you had to navigate your environment. As I think of your own description of our Church of the Park environment and the ways that I've experienced our environment and our ecosystem, I'm reminded of how many times I've watched fear get replaced by belonging and acceptance. Not ever endorsement of unhealthy behavior, but just a willingness to. To dignify and honor the human in front of our faces. Sure. And on the other side of that, is this big deep breath and this relaxation into goodness and truth. And this willingness in the other person to start to go, maybe... There is actually a better life available for me.
Ruth Kruger | 53:09
Right. I remember at the young adult site where I started as a mentor, you know, of course, there was a lot of drinking, not on site, just outside the site. And sometimes some using, and Kids would come back. Intoxicated and sometimes sick. Very intoxicated or, you know, dangerously high. And, you know, I would help them lay down on the couch.
Yeah, the rules said they couldn't lay on the couch, but was I going to let them go back to bed by themselves when they were that sick? No. Help them lay on the couch, kind of tuck a blanket around them, check in on them.
You know, make sure they're hydrated. Get them what they need. Keep an eye on them. It was not the time to tell them, you made a mistake, you messed up, what are you doing? Right. It's the time to check in on them. It's the time to monitor them. There's room for a conversation later, tomorrow. Right now, what this person needs is love.
Yeah. They don't need to be told, hey, you screwed up again. They need to be told, we care about you. We're going to make sure you're safe. We're going to make sure you're well. We're going to make sure you don't die on your vomit.
You know? We're going to be here for you.
John Marshall | 54:22
I'm grateful to know that you exist in our space.
Ruth Kruger | 54:25
I'm grateful to exist in this space.
John Marshall | 54:28
I think that we are closer to the version of Church of the Park that we always long to be because we have you and others on our staff who are so good about humanizing the reality of homelessness, about honoring the struggle that it takes to just show up and try. Right. And someone like you who has the patience, hard-earned patience and resiliency. But patience to sit with someone in that moment of crisis until they can hear that there's something better waiting for them. There is something holy and redemptive about that image to me of tucking someone in on a couch and just saying, rules be damned. Right. You are a beloved child of God, and I'm going to make sure you're safe. Right. And when you are safe and when you can think straight, then we'll talk.
Ruth Kruger | 55:17
Yeah. Right, isn't that what God would do for us?
John Marshall | 55:22
I sure hope so. I like to think so. That's the God that I think I experience. It's the God that I hope. Is the God of the universe. Yes.
Well, again, I'm grateful and I'm thankful for you and for your time. To share your story before we wrap up. I think you are a person with really rich wisdom that comes out of, again, it's hard-earned wisdom out of the experience of pain and darkness. I'm just curious if there's any parts to the conversation that you want to keep talking about.
Ruth Kruger | 55:54
I think... For all of us who are in this work. To acknowledge that it is both beautiful and exhausting. And that hearing other people's stories and seeing other people's stories can be make us tired and can be hard on us. And We have to be honest about that. We do have to be honest about that. We're not saviors. We're not saints. We're just people. And so it's okay to be tired. It's okay to be frustrated. I think Jesus got tired at the end of the day.
Sometimes Jesus tried to get away from the crowds. Why did he do that? He needed a break. He still kept going, but he tried to get away. And it's okay for us to get away. It's okay for us to go home at the end of the day or the end of the night and take our days off. And rest and get frustrated. And let's be honest about that with each other. I think our greatest resource is each other because we're all in this work and we all know what it feels like.
So go to your managers, go to your chaplains and say, hey, this one is hard for me. I'm struggling with this personality or I'm struggling with the seriousness of this situation and it hurts. It's hard. And Just be real and get the support that you need in it because As great as this work is, as human beings, it's hard on us, too. And we need each other.
John Marshall | 57:29
Yeah, that's where the good wisdom, and it's helpful for me, too, and it's a balm to all the moments that I have been in that place of just being overwhelmed and burnt out and going, Am I going to survive? So I'm grateful that you offered that to the rest of our team. And hopefully there's someone else in the world who's listening in their own context of service and care. And I hope that person hears the invitation to find their place of refuge and support.-
Yeah, thank you.
Ruth Kruger | 57:59
You're welcome.
John Marshall | 58:01
The way we end every episode and interview is with a set of 10 questions we call... Rapid fire questions or lightning round questions.
Some of them are silly, some of them are a little bit more meaningful. You feel ready for these questions to wrap up? I'm ready.
Well, Ruth, What is the best dessert?
Ruth Kruger | 58:23
Chocolate cake. But it has to be homemade. It doesn't have to be by scratch. It can be a Betty Crocker pudding in the mix cake mix. But it has to be chocolate cake with chocolate Peace.
John Marshall | 58:32
Frosting. Okay. A genie grants you one wish. What do you wish for? Would you rather go back in time and meet your ancestors or travel to the future and meet your descendants?
Ruth Kruger | 58:43
Future. Bye. Because I want to tell them that I love them and that life is going to be good. And that they have great things ahead of them.
John Marshall | 58:51
I like that. Cats or dogs. Apples or oranges? Apples. What is your favorite smell?
Ruth Kruger | 59:00
The ocean. And coffee. Second best.
John Marshall | 59:04
Very similar aromas.
Ruth Kruger | 59:06
So much alike.
John Marshall | 59:09
What is one thing you would add to Salem to make it better?
Ruth Kruger | 59:13
A salt and straw.
John Marshall | 59:15
What piece of advice has helped you the most?
Ruth Kruger | 59:18
I had an amazing coworker. If they're listening and know who they are. Who taught me for seven years of working together to hold the outcome loosely. And he would put his hands out like this and say, don't hold on so tight to it. Just let it go. Do it and let it go.
John Marshall | 59:36
That's good. - What is your favorite thing about yourself?
Ruth Kruger | 59:41
I smiled.
John Marshall | 59:42
- Finally, what is your biggest hope for your future?
Ruth Kruger | 59:46
For the future. Is for love and kindness for everyone. I guess for my future would be the same for my grandchildren.
John Marshall | 59:57
I hope that too. Thank you.
Well, again, Ruth, thank you for your time. Thanks for your humanity and the way that you offer it to the world. I really mean what I say when I say I think Church of the Park is better because of you. And when we have staff who get to watch you show up in space, I think you were someone for the rest of us to emulate. And be like. In the way that you care well for others.
So I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for your story.
Ruth Kruger | 01:00:27
And I am grateful to be here. I finally got to the place where I want to work and want to be.