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Leading Awake is where top executives, founders, and senior leaders drop the mask and get real about the human side of leading at the highest level. The high-pressure, high-stakes moments where leadership actually counts. The decisions, conversations, and responses that can't be taken back. Each episode brings three of them into the kind of unscripted, honest conversation that doesn't usually happen in public.
**Gilan Gork** [00:00]
Every leader I work with eventually faces this.
**Heidi Brauer** [00:03]
He said, Mommy, we need you back and I was, and I had nowhere to go.
**Brad Roper** [00:07]
Imposter syndrome just roaring through me.
**Gilan Gork** [00:10]
A real conversation about what it costs to keep leading when you're stretched thin. The CEO of Lew Geffen Sotheby's International Realty, the Chief of Payments and Partnerships at JUMO, and the former chief marketing officer who led Kulula, British Airways, Hollard and more.
**Brad Roper** [00:25]
Every single time I had to come into the turnstiles. I felt like I had to switch myself off and switch something different on.
**Yael Geffen** [00:31]
My former CEO ha had been charged with murder.
**Brad Roper** [00:35]
How I define my job is I say like read is good. Whatever is read, that is my job.
**Heidi Brauer** [00:40]
Sometimes we talk utter shit for three quarters of the meeting. Finally in the last ten minutes somebody would say, yeah, there's a culture thing going on here that I'm worried about and the gem would come.
**Yael Geffen** [00:51]
You are not alone.
**Gilan Gork** [00:52]
Stretch thin, still.
**Brad Roper** [00:54]
Being stretched doesn't mean that we stop leading.
**Gilan Gork** [01:03]
Welcome to Leading Awake. I'm Gilan Gork. And if you're a senior leader right now, I think that you'll recognise this. You're in back-to-back meetings all day. You come home, and sometimes you've got nothing left for the people who actually matter to you. You're making decisions that impact hundreds or maybe even thousands of people. And somewhere in the background, you catch yourself thinking, Am I even the right person for this? You're holding it together on the outside, but on the inside, it feels like There are cracks that are starting to show. And you can't really talk about it because who do you talk to when you're the one that everyone else is leaning on? That is the territory that we're going into today in this fascinating discussion. If you're new to the show, my background is a bit unusual. I started out as a professional mentalist, working with the human mind on stages around the world. And that path eventually led me to the world of leadership, working with leaders and organizations across the globe. On what it really takes to see clearly and respond wisely when under pressure. And that's what this show is about: the inner game of leadership. The stuff that's harder to talk about, but arguably the stuff that matters most. Today's conversation is called Stretch Thin Still Leading. I sat down with three leaders who know this territory well. Yael Geffen is the CEO of Lew Geffen Sotheby's International Realty, one of South Africa's most recognised real estate brands. She's been open about navigating bipolar disorder while leading at the highest level. And what she shares in this conversation about the cost of that openness and what it gave her back is something that I think a lot of leaders need to hear. Brad Roper is the chief of payments and partnerships at JUMO, leading live partnerships across the African continent. He's someone who defines his job by running towards whatever's on fire. And in this conversation, he talks honestly about the moment he realised. That the people closest to him were getting what was left over. And we have with us Heidi Brauer, who was the chief marketing officer at Hollard for over a decade, after leading brands like Kulula and British Airways in South Africa. Today she's a consultant and facilitator of her own company, Heidi B Co. And the distance from corporate, now that she's left corporate, has given her a lens on leadership that I think is truly valuable. Really, she tells a story in this episode that I won't forget.
**Gilan Gork** [03:28]
So we have three leaders with us, three very different worlds, and one conversation that most of them would never normally have in public. Welcome again to Leading Awake and welcome to our guests. I've got a warm-up question that I will want to pose to each of you. and that is what is one belief about leadership or culture that you've changed your mind about?
**Brad Roper** [03:53]
A couple of things come to mind. The first one was, I think I grew up with the belief that leaders had to have all these answers and that leaders were these omnipotent beings that were these oracle-like individuals. But given the fact that we live in the information age and even often the disinformation age, I think I've had to really smash that belief. And I really like this concept in a book that I read called The Geek Way, which is like the leader's job in a modern society is to actually farm for dissent, asking the right questions, legitimizing doubt, and then co-creating solutions. So I think that's probably the biggest mental model that I've had to break is not being this person that provides answers, but rather creating a space, farming for dissent. and then co-creating a journey towards a solution.
**Gilan Gork** [04:54]
Love that. Yeah, who would like to jump in there?
**Heidi Brauer** [04:57]
I think what I've busted or changed I think is really my view has changed because I was saying to Brad when we were just getting set up that I have been out of corporate for eighteen months. It's just like a lens that's that's changed. Just by definition, you are in many situations the chief peanut and no matter how much you try to be part of or one of, you are not seen as that. And it's really hard for the other people, because you can only change how you show up. You can't change how other people show up. And I think I didn't realise how hard it was for them until I stepped out and now I am a facilitator and enabler for other companies. I'm not anybody's boss, which is quite nice, quite refreshing actually. And I think I am seeing how you have to be so much more deliberate. about finding ways of being inclusive, of creating dissent, as you said. It's harder than you think. Cause it's not only about changing you, it's about it's the it's the lens that other people are seeing it through. It's it's not so easy.
**Gilan Gork** [06:10]
I can't wait, like we spoke about yesterday, just to have a an episode of leadership answered with people who are no longer in corporate after long, illustrious corporate careers and just like looking back. so yeah, it's really great to have your perspective through that lens as well now. Yale, how about you?
**Yael Geffen** [06:28]
So a couple a couple things come to mind. I think that a leader instead of using the word boss or manager, a leader should be seen as a coach rather than a boss or a manager. And that takes the sting out of this hierarchy and superiority. Traditionally, I always, when I was growing up, and watching the world and it was the era of Mad Men thing where leaders were loud and they were out there. And I really value servant leadership. And I think listening most of the time and speaking some of the time has been an important learning for me. And that a good leader who encourages trust and transparency amongst his or her team has has the power of really being able to listen and understand.
**Gilan Gork** [07:34]
Yeah, fantastic. we often talk about leadership in terms of vision, strategy, performance all that visible stuff. But what's less visible and arguably even more important is actually how leaders keep showing up, even when the pressure doesn't let up when people are feeling stretched, tired. doubting themselves. And so that's really the space that we want to explore today. So Ya Yael, I've had the privilege of hearing you speak and you've been open about navigating things like bipolar disorder while still leading at the highest level. When the emotional load gets heavy, how do you decide what to reveal, what to contain, how to just continue leading from that place of integrity?
**Yael Geffen** [08:18]
So I had a terrible experience when I was working in Los Angeles. I was at an advertising agency and I had a relapse and I communicated to them I wasn't going to because of the shame that I was carrying and I landed up getting let go a month later. Like if I look back, I think, I could have taken them to the cleaners, you know? But It just is what it w is. I never ever want to be in a culture or create a culture that has that fear to it because I was a damn good employee and I even won the Academy Awards pitch for the 80th Academy Awards, and this was like a month before. And I was very scared when I got into this leadership position of being CEO at Lou GIF and Saut Louise International Realty. I certainly didn't volunteer that information. And someone said to me, Her name's Glenda Thompson, this is actually such a strength of who you are. Open yourself up because there are other people that. Or navigating this. And imagine you can inspire other leaders to come forward because people naturally think that as a leader, you don't have bipolar. So I actually did, I want to say come out in the public eye about it, and I was terrified. And instead of the world turning me away, it encompassed me and embraced me with a warm hug instead. And that was really, really powerful. And I think that the more authenticity and transparency you create with your team and your staff and your network, it allows everyone else to show up as well. And when you have psychological safety and you create psychological safety, there's someone in my team who has very severe bipolar. Severe, severe, severe. And I can
**Yael Geffen** [10:33]
Understand him because of what I've gone through. And he is a high functioning, highly productive person. But if he is having a bad time, we all huddle around him and take over. And it allows everyone to step in for you when you can't show up fully. So it's about navigating that and creating such a strong team and environment around you. So if I am having an off day, my team naturally is like, We got you, EL. We got you. And I think that's what leadership is about.
**Gilan Gork** [11:12]
And Brad, I'd love to hear your thoughts on on this as well. Just knowing your experience and what you shared with your team as well and creating that open, yeah, safe environment. What are your thoughts?
**Brad Roper** [11:22]
Reading Brene Brown's book, Daring Greatly, just had a fundamental shift on me and my thoughts around leadership. I read it at the time that I was given my first job as CEO, which was in my late 20s. My first job of CEO was to lead a team of over two and a half thousand people concentrated in one building and had to put two excos together and merge them. You can imagine this like 20 something year old kid walking into the turnstiles. Like every single time I had to come into the turnstiles, to like, I felt like I had to switch myself off and switch something different on. I'm to have two and a thousand pairs of eyes on me was like intense pressure. So imposter syndrome just roaring through me. And I felt like I had to put on this like mask of perfection all of the time. And it was super draining for me. So for me, learning that firstly, I was not feeling psychologically safe, but then I also, to your point, I didn't want to transfer any, I didn't want anyone else to feel that way other than me. I start every single meeting, inviting everyone to check in, it's a head, heart and health check-in. So what's going on cognitively in your head? Like, let's not get into the stuff and work just like cognitively. How many tabs do you have open? Heart, how you're feeling emotionally, is anything troubling you or straining you? And then health, there's the physical health component, but also like mental health, like what's going on with you? And so I usually will check in first and like being vulnerable going, I feel like I don't have everything together right now. I've got way too many tabs open. Like it's stressing. My partner's not happy with me. My family's starting to. Like people really like vulnerable. Vulnerability gives my team the permission to show up as well. And then it's immediate, like everyone starts crowding. If you're having a little bit of a weak moment, people will crowd in and try and help like drive you through that. So yeah, thanks for creating that space. Yeah, I'll have this conversation.
**Gilan Gork** [13:37]
Yeah, I obviously I work with a lot of execs and in excos and when I asked the question in workshops, who's ever experienced it, ninety-nine percent of hands go up, which I totally relate to as well. When I when I presented for NATO, I was the opening keynote speaker for NATO at their StratCom conference in Europe. And I just had absolute imposter syndrome. like really just thought to myself, what am I even doing here? I was petrified, absolutely petrified. So I totally relate to it.
**Yael Geffen** [14:08]
Wanted to share, I also had such severe imposter syndrome when I took over. my former CEO had been charged with murder. And then I land up taking over. I'm the chairman's daughter, which is nepotism people love nepotism. I'm the youngest CEO. I'm the only female woman CEO in real estate. I'm a single mom with a child. So I decided to lean into masculinity and I started wearing ties. And I look like such a schmuck after wearing the fifth or sixth tie. I was like, what are you doing? You're feminine. You're leaning away. For me, it was about changing those filters with foundations. It's like resourcing yourself, getting a mentor, focusing on actually building you up from the inside rather than building yourself up from the outside. And I call imposter syndrome of something else. I call it a crisis of confidence. And the acronym is so suitably there. It's cock. It's a cock. Because people are like, I'm having such a cock today. And obviously it's a crisis of confidence. But when you can name it and make fun of it, it's quite fun.
**Heidi Brauer** [15:17]
So there I rock up to the insurance company full of actuaries, engineers, and accountants. I'm not one of any of those. I had consulted to them before a year before we got married, before I joined them full-time. And at my first exco, it was a big exco at then, it was about fourteen people. at the end of it, one of the guys who I'm still close with to this day, he's about seven foot tall. He looked down at me, not on me, at me. And he said, Katie, you're so different from us. Promise me you'll never change and be like us. We need you to be different. He gave me in that moment, I looked at him like this. The biggest gift of this permission and the consciousness of the value I bring by being who I am and with the gifts that I bring, which are different to the gifts everybody else brings. You know, the first thing I did when I joined Hollard was download an app called The Actuarial Glossary. I used to sit in meetings. In that glossary trying to find which three-letter acronym the people were using, but they made up new ones on the spot. I turned to the left of me, turned to the right at whichever actuary was closest and said, What's that? Because I couldn't find it. They made them up. So I knew like that I was never gonna be them. And I slowly learned that I got here because of who I am. And I think we have to keep remembering that. when we're having crises of confidence. You know the door may have been opened for you, Yael, more easily than other doors for people, but you walked through it yourself. I think actually the fact that 99.9% of conscious humans have imposter syndrome makes sense because we are perfectly imperfect and we are and we have some humility, thank God. But it's always for me about
**Heidi Brauer** [17:41]
Being conscious of the gifts that you bring and the role that you play. and I spent eleven years negotiating actuaries, accountants, and engineers, and I got the CEO's award. So so that I spent 11 years still not knowing all the acronyms. I had resigned, I had decided to move on, and I was acknowledged. And I think it's just important that your lens on you is not the same as other people's lenses on you, is that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And you are one of the parts with all your gifts. And we need them all, you know? And it doesn't mean you wake up every morning going, I'm a gift, I'm a gift. no. It doesn't work like that. Some days you don't feel like the gift. You feel like the crumpled wrapping paper. But you just gotta keep remembering someone like Pierre is thinking about you like, Wow, I need a her or a him. And I'll tell you a little story. You see, Gilan knows I've got stories. I had been at Comere for four years. How blessed was I? I had Kahula, British Airways, Slow Lounges, Empty Beds, Daddy's Deals, 227. I'd glorious brands to look after. I had a lovely team. I had fabulous agencies, King James atmosphere, like the best. I j I loved it. My CEO left. I was left with the other CEO, good guy, but the whole dynamic of the corporate changed completely. One Friday evening after supper, I was in my bathroom, standing by the mirror. I don't know what I was doing there actually. And my then 19-year-old son, Kim, stood behind me. So I could see him and me in the mirror. I couldn't move. And he said these words to me. He said, Mommy, we need you back. And he didn't mean We need you back to Yael knows my family to bake scones and like have babies in barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. He meant they know how I resonate when I'm happy and buzzing with with my corporate and my and he knew I wasn't. He said, if we have to eat peanut butter sandwiches 'cause you need to go and visit a yogi on top of a mountain and find your thing, that's okay.
**Heidi Brauer** [19:59]
And and then it left me with that thought. And I cried myself in a bubble bath with music, like a boy had broken up with me, that feeling. and then I knew he was right. I'd lost my bubbles, actually. I'd lost something had changed and I wasn't me. And I gave myself eight six weeks till the eighteenth of the month, because numerologically 18, Jewish people's high life. And by that day, every day I got closer to that day. I felt like the universe had lifted off my shoulders and I knew it was the right choice. And I resigned. I had nowhere to go. And I had kids in private school and university. So that's for me how strong I feel, how strongly I can feel and the people around me can feel when I'm in the right place and when I'm not being in the right place.
**Brad Roper** [20:48]
Yeah
**Gilan Gork** [20:48]
That's powerful. Yeah, I thanks for sharing that. If you're listening to this and recognising some of what these leaders are describing that pool between wanting to show up fully and feeling like there just isn't enough of you to go around. I think it's worth knowing that this isn't a personality thing. It really is a pattern and it's something that you can actually work with. When pressure builds, your perception narrows. And that's not some flaw that we have. It really is just what pressure does to us. You know, you start operating from a smaller version of yourself. You may get faster, but less clear, more reactive, and less responsive. And the people around you feel it too even when you think that you're hiding it well. The PEAK Practice Programme is something that I built for exactly this. It's a 14-day guided audio practice designed for senior leaders, and its whole purpose is to help you to expand your perception and your bandwidth under pressure so that you see more of what's actually happening. So that you can think more clearly and lead from a wider grounded presence. It takes just 10 to 15 minutes a day. And the leaders who've been through it consistently say that the shift shows up not just in the big moments, but in the everyday ones too, helping them to become more effective leaders as a whole. If that sounds interesting to you, head to peakawake.com. But for now, let's get back to the conversation. Love to just take something, a thread from there. We'll be talking about things like values as well. And just always being in alignment with our values. and so we're talking about being stretched thin, still leading. and so sometimes, especially when the pressure is on and we're we're working in environments where you one really needs to be delivering results all the time and there's lots of scale and speed and all of that stuff. I'd love to know was there a time where perhaps you felt stretched so thin, or maybe the people around you were stretched so thin and putting pressure on you? that you almost risk drifting from your from your leadership values and how did you course correct?
**Brad Roper** [22:52]
In my current job, I've got more than a dozen live partnerships across the continent. And how I define my job is I say like, really is good. Whatever is red, that is my job. whichever country manager is having reds, I hop on a plane, and it is my job to dive head first into that crisis and get it to green or amber and then leave and then the people can thrive. one December. So I'm coming down the stairs and I've just come off a big red call that I'm trying to and I'm like, everything's going to be fine. We've done a head hard health. I've got you. I'm flying on a plane and I get downstairs and it's dinner time and I'm just like. And my partner says to me, know, I know that things are really intense for you, but I'm actually done getting scraps. And my mom that week she was busy with a big renovation and things had gone awry. And I have the Saturday time with her and she explained to me like how like bad things are going. I said, why didn't you call me? And she says, because you're not playable. Like right now, you're not playable. And I was just like, hold up. Am I reserving like the best fits for these like crises and defining myself as the smarter leader that like ready is good enough? And I'm like giving scraps. to the people that love and need me the most. And that's where I've had to redefine myself as well. I have to also create space to sharpen the sword. I have to reserve the best bits of myself for the people that matter the most. And then it actually becomes this virtuous cycle because then I get more energy and I can dive headfirst into more reds.
**Gilan Gork** [24:41]
Yeah.
**Heidi Brauer** [24:41]
Years every corporate I ever went to was out of their boom phase and out of the heydays. No, had no had no budgets and no no margins. Everybody's got ADHD with technology and everyone's trying to do what everyone else is doing. And yesterday we were talking about keeping the main thing, the main thing. And and I think that's it, is that is that. If you and your team know what the main thing is, both in yeah in terms of how you show up and what you're trying to do, you set everybody free. my previous CEO used to talk talking about railway tracks or rail tracks used to say. You need rail tracks and you do. If you have rail tracks, then as a marketer and a brand mama, I have to make sure that my agencies know what those what those what the main thing. Is every time we get like the winds come and now we must and Google's changed the algorithm or or suddenly the budgets are slashed because we've had to pay so much in COVID claims that we really don't have any money left. We can just pull back to what's the main thing. What are we trying to do? And then everyone's lined up behind that main thing, up behind me, behind that thing, that we are united in our purpose and we and we focused and it is so powerful, not empowering. powerful in terms of energizing everybody.
**Brad Roper** [26:11]
Also, I'm riddled. still I'm riddled with anxiety. I don't go to gym to do anything other than just burn off whatever anxieties like coursing through my veins. I just burn that right off in the morning and then I can be fully present through the day. I do lots of like mindfulness work, like lots of little micro breaks in the day. If I've come off for like a high intense like meeting, I literally will take 30 minutes, drink a cup of tea. reset, reboot, because I can't be dragging that energy into like the next big event that I need to show up hugely big on like Stephen Covey sharpen the sword, like, how can I get out in nature? Like, how can I be up on a mountain or close to the water when I'm up on a mountain? It reminds me like, like I feel closest to my higher power. And when I'm down at the ocean, I'm reminded of my insignificance. Like if I go in the ocean, I'm at my weakest point, like I can't swim faster than a shark that I'm scared of. And so I have to put myself into these like nature-based spaces where I'm reminded of my insignificance and that really just re-energizes me.
**Gilan Gork** [27:20]
And and I'm really passionate about mindfulness, I think that a lot of people don't know how to really practically use it when it's all good when you're on the cushion, so to speak, and practicing with your eyes closed at home. And when you're in real work environments, how do you actually bring that in? Yael, how how about you? What are your what are your thoughts around this?
**Yael Geffen** [27:41]
The person that was getting the scraps was me. So in my situation, I was giving everything to work, everything to my child, everything to this, everything to that. And I was left with the scraps. And I could see in his eyes as well that I wasn't reserving any self love for me. And I've had to be extremely, extremely disciplined with self-care. because I'm fantastic in chaos. I am the calmest person in chaos. Call it my brilliant burden, because it gives me a certain brilliance and at the same time it burdens me at its at its down points. While companies were backpedaling. We were ahead. And it was a very hectic time because during COVID, we have real estate agents, property professionals, who didn't not just get a decrease in salary, their job is completely risk. It's com commission-based. And now the deeds office is closed. They had no chance to earn any income. Right? Now, face 500 people like this who are. Absolutely having meltdowns. And I was so calm and clear-headed. And in those situations, you don't give up, you give more. And then I have my nervous breakdown afterwards when everyone's fine. When everyone's fine, that's the time for me to go and have my little meltdown. But as a result of seeing how much I give to each and every person, and the least to myself, and how that affects me mentally. Spiritually, physically, all of it. I've learned to be very disciplined. And I now force myself to go to the gym in the morning because I'm also having anxiety when I wake up. It's an hour for myself where I turn off my phone. I'm not accessible to my son, my work. The world could end, but I am weight training and it's just me. And then I get my ritual coffee and small little things every
**Yael Geffen** [30:09]
Few weeks, even if it's a little trip into the bush, getting out into nature, those walk and talk meetings are unbelievable. I actually do a lot of them with my staff. I'll say, come meet me at the park and we'll walk. And at first, they were like, This is a bit crazy. We're walking and then we're talking, and we are coming up with such creative ideas. If I'm having a manic episode, sleep is non-existent for me. I have to take a sleeping pull. to resort to forcing myself to sleep. So it's it's it's required a lot of discipline on my part.
**Heidi Brauer** [30:46]
We had a restructured Hollard. CEO number two came in and shrunk the exco from fifteen to five. I was not on his ex go. So after my absolute shattered ego's self-esteem, humiliation, when I picked myself up off the floor and realised that neither was the chief risk officer in an insurance company, neither was the chief actuary, it wasn't about me. after I did that and also then learned that actually it made no difference to anybody else. they still saw me as a leader. The thing I had to do was I still had to connect with those people that I used to see every week, but I wasn't seeing them now. So I pinged them all and I said, I'm gonna make a meeting with you, because I need to still stay connected with you. You know that I saw all of them, a dozen of them, my poor PA had to make these meetings, a dozen of them or so every single month for an hour. No one ever canceled me. Sometimes they moved it. Sometimes they shrunk it. I know there are meetings for which one should have an agenda, but what in my head, agendaless meetings are those meetings where you just connect with people and you have it regularly in your calendars and you explain the reason for it is because I need I want to talk about what's keeping us up at night. I want to understand the business of your business. Because then I'm aware of you and your things when I'm talking to the next guy and the next guy so that I can help put things together and be conscious of you and be in service. Sometimes we talk utter shit for three quarters of the meeting, huh? Your holiday or your kids or your dog or your whatever. And finally in the last ten minutes, somebody would say, yeah, there's a culture thing going on here that I'm worried about. And the gem would come. Because people do business with people, not companies. And we don't spend enough time talking to each other. It's like what's the agenda for this meeting? And we leave. We're not connecting. And so my my my thing and even when your time is thin, your resources are thin, you're wherewith or have agendaless meetings and connect. Understand people and where they're at because
**Heidi Brauer** [33:14]
That's how you will how you will be in service.
**Gilan Gork** [33:16]
There is literally just a very quick, like rapid fire, like twenty second answer each, just as as as we wrap up. What is one thing? It could be a habit, a mindset, a strategy that's most improved your leadership effectiveness ever? What is that one thing you would recommend to any other leaders?
**Brad Roper** [33:35]
Being stretched doesn't mean that we stop leading. It means that we start leading differently with greater purpose, greater humility, and more intentional self-renewal.
**Heidi Brauer** [33:47]
The brilliant Adam Morgan, who wrote the original book on challenger brands and subsequently a few others, he says that really constraints literally can be beautiful, that you don't have to see constraints as limiting things. Instead of approaching things with a can't because language, use Adam's language of can if and it shifts the lens on everything.
**Yael Geffen** [34:12]
It's okay to not be okay for you and your teams and having those vulnerable, courageous conversations. And the biggest one for me is you are not alone. And only when I had my crisis of confidence and I decided what, I deserve to be here. So let me surround myself with an army of people who believe in me, who can empower me. So resource yourself, replace those filters with foundations. There are so many people that can be by your side to empower you that it's not just you. So you are not alone.
**Gilan Gork** [34:52]
What I keep coming back to from this conversation is something that none of them said directly, but all three of them showed. The moments where you feel most stretched are often the moments where something important is trying to get your attention. Haiti's son saw it before she did. Brad's partner called it out before he could. And Yale turned her hardest experience into the thing that made her leadership real. I think that there's something in that for all of us that being stretched thin isn't just a problem to solve. It can be a signal if you're willing to listen to it. Now, one of the things I'm trying to build with this show is a space where leaders can actually talk to each other about this stuff, not just to listen to the episode, but to connect. So if something from this conversation stuck with you, I'd really love to hear it. Drop a comment and let me know what head home for you. Was there a moment where you thought, that's exactly what I'm going through right now? Or maybe there's a topic that you want us to go deeper on in a future episode or a question. That you would want for us to put to a guest. And while you're in the comments, take a look at what other listeners are saying too and reply to another leader. Share your own experience because I think one of the most powerful things about this show and the potential here is realising that you're not the only leader dealing with this stuff. And the comment section is a place where that conversation and connection can actually happen. My team and I are always working to make the show better. So your input really does shape what comes next. And if you could follow the show and leave a rating wherever you're listening. That would really help more people to find these conversations, not just to their benefit, but to the benefit of everyone who they are leading as well. And if you're curious about my PEAK Practice Programme, head to peakawake.com. Remember, it's a 14-day guided audio practice designed specifically for leaders. It takes just 10 to 15 minutes a day. And if what these leaders in today's conversation described about staying grounded under pressure resonates with where you are right now, I think that the PEAK Practice Programme. Would be one of the most useful things you do this year as a leader. So thank you for listening to Leading Awake. Thank you. I'll see you in the next one.