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Fascinating conversations with founders, leaders, and experts about product management, artificial intelligence (AI), user experience design, technology, and how we can create the best product experiences for users and our businesses.
Veronica S. (00:00.11)
Thanks for watching!
Kyle (00:01.689)
Alright, welcome to another episode of Product by Design. I am Kyle. And this week we've got another awesome episode with us. We have two guests, Hannah Rue and Veronica Shelton. Hannah and Veronica, welcome to the show.
Veronica S. (00:16.142)
Bye.
Hannah (00:17.462)
Hi, thank you for having us.
Kyle (00:18.949)
Thank you for being here. Let me do a brief introduction for you, and then you can tell us a little bit more about yourselves. But Hannah and Veronica are the co-founders behind Oak Theory, which is a design studio specializing in UX, UI, web, and application design, and a lot more, which we will dive into. But before we do that, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourselves?
Veronica S. (00:19.116)
Yeah.
Veronica S. (00:44.266)
For sure. Hannah, do you want to start?
Hannah (00:44.377)
If you want me to. Sure. I'm Hannah. I'm one of the co-founders at Oak Theory. Like Kyle, you mentioned we work on branding, web design experiences, UX, UI design. Me personally, I handle the more business development, sales side of the operations of the company. And then Veronica is on the creative and execution side.
Veronica S. (01:10.166)
Yeah, hi. I'm Veronica. Yes, more on the creative operational, creative side. It's so weird, we're still like working through as we're growing like where we're at. But yeah, I'm more so on the working with the team kind of like in the trenches we like to say, but my background is in creative direction, UI, UX, product design. That's kind of how we met. We both are working on a product together.
And so, yep, it's a pleasure to be here.
Kyle (01:43.373)
Awesome. Well, I definitely want to talk more about your experience coming together, you know, the founding of Oak Theory, the company that you have put together. But before we do that, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you like to do outside of the office and outside of Oak Theory.
Hannah (02:02.013)
Oh, fun. Let's think. V and I were just talking about it yesterday, how much we like to work. And so it is a passion for sure. It has to be when you're running a business. But for me personally, I have a two year old toddler. So being a mom is something that I'm still adjusting to, I would say. So being a mom, I don't know if it's always fun, but it's something that I do outside of work.
Kyle (02:08.131)
Hahaha
Veronica S. (02:10.05)
passion of ours.
Hannah (02:32.029)
like to really work out and challenge myself. So whether that be through physical challenges with races or just going to the gym every day. Yeah, I just signed up for my first triathlon, which I'm excited about. But yeah, just things that make me feel more uncomfortable, like where I feel like I'm pushing myself. So whether that's physical or like yesterday, I went to Toastmasters for the first time just to.
Veronica S. (02:42.638)
triathlons.
Veronica S. (02:47.639)
Yes.
Hannah (03:00.751)
practice public speaking. So things like that.
Kyle (03:04.049)
Wow. That's awesome. Do you... So you haven't done a triathlon before. Do you have a part that you'll think you'll enjoy the most of it? Or dislike the least?
Hannah (03:12.661)
You know what? The reason I chose it was because I don't like all three parts of it. I don't care for running. I don't care for swimming. I don't like biking. So I'm like, why not try to befriend maybe I'll befriend one or two of them. So I'll let you know in May after I'm done with the race.
Veronica S. (03:32.758)
Yes, excited. Yeah. And then me, I am, this is my unhinged 2024. I've been owning it. And it involves doing a lot of things that I'm not comfortable doing as well. I think that's a goal me and Hannah have this year. But my free time, if it's not working and being on calls with Hannah, talking about new things that we wanna do and strategizing new ways we can grow our business, usually gaming.
Kyle (03:35.833)
Nice.
Veronica S. (04:02.622)
most of the time. And so I am an avid gamer and a bar goer. So that's what I like to do in my free time.
Kyle (04:13.249)
Awesome. Do you have a favorite game or favorite platform?
Veronica S. (04:17.558)
So I make games as well. And so I have every platform you could possibly imagine. And so I try not to be biased. Of course, I do love my PS5. My Xbox is still in a box. And then I've started doing PC as well a lot more often and trying new things there, trying to get inspired. On PS5, it's definitely Apex Legends.
And then on platform, I stopped playing Arma and I just got into Green Hell, which has been interesting. And then Star Do Valley with some of my friends which is just peaceful, really like interesting. But yeah, those are the games that I'm playing now.
Kyle (05:07.001)
Okay, well, sounds like some really good recommendations. Yeah, very nice. Well, I want to dive into a little bit more about your journey, the company that you two have founded together, and some of the things that you're working on. So I'm interested, you kind of touched on the journey and what brought you to Oak Theory.
Veronica S. (05:10.879)
Apex is always a good recommendation.
Kyle (05:31.245)
It sounds like you were working on something together and that's kind of what brought you together, but tell us a little bit more about that. The company that you founded and what you were doing and then ultimately what brought you together to found that company and to do what you're doing now.
Hannah (05:48.269)
Yeah, I could take this one. So I was working at a tech startup, working on a product and I was looking for a product designer. And so I met Veronica and she caught my eye right away just because within our industry, there is not a lot of black women in the industry working on products or in technology. And so we got together, we worked on that project together and right away I felt like, dang, we could do something together, just her and
Veronica S. (05:49.816)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah (06:18.497)
just within the rarity and just the connection that we had. And of course the talent and the hard work. And so we worked on the product together at the startup. And then maybe a year later, I was looking for new opportunities in the Bay Area and I hit up Veronica and see what she was up to. And she was kind of exploring her own thing, freelancing. And so when she came into town, I proposed, hey, what if we start something together instead?
Veronica S. (06:47.566)
Paint the image, Hannah. We always say this. She never, she always glosses over like how beautiful that moment was. Like we were in California. She had just moved. I lived in California when we met and she lived in New York. I had just moved to New York and she was just moving to New York, or to California, to my literal neighborhood there. And I still had friends out there, so I was house sitting. And I went out there and we were...
Hannah (06:48.985)
I know.
Hannah (06:54.893)
Go ahead.
Veronica S. (07:15.422)
we were just connecting, talking, but then we ended up, I forgot where we were going, but we were driving literally. It's like, if you paint the scene, it's like California highway in the Jeep driving down and she's sitting next to me and she's like, do you want to start a business together? And like, just like, it was a moment. And I was like, yeah. And we went and got lunch at Chick-fil-A. Like we sat in a crowded Chick-fil-A, literally the,
Kyle (07:31.761)
Thanks for watching.
Veronica S. (07:44.482)
The blueprint to starting a business, we had a napkin or a piece of paper that we found and we wrote down like how we're going to put this together and like what our partnership was gonna look like. And in that moment, right then and there, it started. Like it was like a switch. We both were, we both have this like mentality. We're very, when we know we need to do something, we do it. There's no like hesitation. We don't kind of dilly dally, you know, we get it done. And so right after that, we met at the...
placed the friend's house that I was house sitting and we even went deeper into the plan. And by the time I flew back home, we had a business and it was just getting things started. So yeah, it was a beautiful moment. Like, yeah. Oh, okay.
Hannah (08:30.421)
You should tell that story.
Veronica S. (08:34.91)
Yeah, you can't gloss over it. It was literally straight out of a book. So yeah, that's what.
Hannah (08:39.221)
Yeah, and that was in March of 2020, a month before the lockdown. And so we started our business remotely, which worked out for us. And we got our first project maybe a month or two after we started and it's been onwards from there.
Veronica S. (08:54.965)
Yeah.
Kyle (08:56.417)
Wow. It does sound like it's that quintessential, almost like it's a script from a TV show, like you said, or a book where it's just, it comes together and then back of a napkin and you create it and make it happen. And it just, it all comes together, which sounds super, super exciting. So I'm really interested in, you know, as it starts to come together and you have some of these companies that you start working with, the first companies and grows from there.
You know, tell us about some of the problem. Oh, pause for a second. Am I back?
Veronica S. (09:28.983)
You cut out.
Veronica S. (09:36.798)
Yeah, I can hear you now.
Hannah (09:36.869)
Yeah.
Kyle (09:37.861)
There we go, okay. It seems like I'm freezing just a little bit periodically. The good news though, is that it's recording on each side, so all of it will come together seamlessly. So as it uploads. So tell us about some of the, as you're working with these companies, tell us about some of the problems that you are addressing and seeing with them and coming in to help them solve.
Veronica S. (09:46.174)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Kyle (10:06.637)
and really create, I guess, some of the things that you're creating with these companies.
Veronica S. (10:15.522)
So I think we, in this industry and especially ours, right? We work with so many different clients and so the problems are so different. But if there was one similarity, it's that usually they come to us because of our perspective. And that's something that we pride ourselves on with like, yes, we designed for diversity, but also inclusivity. And that means like, we kind of dive in to see what are they not seeing? Who are they not seeing? And why is their product either not performing how they want it to perform
before they even start building it, let's make sure we don't miss anything. And I would say that would be the main thing that we like to solve for is always solving for the user and always solving to make sure that it performs to the best of its ability. Hannah, what do you think?
Hannah (11:02.449)
Yeah, I would say that's the main crux of it is that we are, whether it be a client who's in the energy industry or a Google or a startup that's starting out, that our focus is really on designing for the user. And I think we hear that all the time in UXUI and we take it seriously. Like beyond just our perspective too, we through UX research, we'll make sure that we have data points and comp research to always.
validate the design decisions that we're making for our end customer, which is not even just a client, but their customers. So that's our main focal point. We're always designing for whoever is going to be using it. And we try to take ourselves and our clients out of it as much as possible, given that, you know, we're using our perspectives, but just a touch of it.
Veronica S. (11:32.15)
Yeah.
Veronica S. (11:47.117)
Yes.
Veronica S. (11:52.558)
We love to tell our clients, like remind them, you are not your user. So just take it out. I know like maybe you were, but even now you were and now you aren't. So that's a whole different perspective that we have to think about. So yeah, and we're incredibly data-driven. Everything we do, it's all about data.
Kyle (12:12.081)
Okay, I think that's really great and really interesting because I think it's so easy within what we're doing within product and user experience to either think of ourselves as the user or to get caught up, like you said, in our own opinions of what it should be as opposed to focusing on the actual users that we're trying to design for. I'm interested, how do you help some of the customers or the clients or the people that you're working with?
Veronica S. (12:26.824)
Mm-hmm.
Veronica S. (12:33.577)
Yeah.
Kyle (12:40.461)
change that perspective because oftentimes it can be a difficult thing to help companies or clients or other people to get out of their own way in some ways because you get, at least in my experience, people with very strong opinions who think that they are very correct in what the users want. What are some of the ways that you found can be the most helpful to actually
help them see that their opinion may not always be the right one, or I guess maybe help them really start to see things from a different perspective, kind of like you're talking about.
Hannah (13:27.969)
You got it.
Veronica S. (13:29.971)
I think it's enlightenment, right? Let's just call it that. And that's kind of how we package it, but it's the UX side of UX UI and product design. It's enlightenment being like, I know that you know what's best for your user, but let us prove to you why maybe this isn't the case. Let's look at data. Being data-driven helps us where it's not us convincing anyone, it's us showing. Like...
this is what you've been doing and it's not working. This is what your competitors are doing and it's working. We do user interviews, customer journeys, story maps, and we see how things look from outside of it and it always helps our clients be like, oh, like, oh yeah, we did interviews with the 20 people that you sent us and they're saying something completely different than what you thought. So it's not, we don't have to convince you, we're showing you, it's enlightenment.
That's what they come to us for, right? So I would say that would be just enlightenment, letting them see what their product is, how people are using it, giving them data.
Kyle (14:36.325)
That's great. I'm wondering, have you ever had a really, really great aha moment with anybody that you've worked with as far as using some of the data, whether it's qualitative data or quantitative data that you've gone out and gathered and helped put together that has really helped change anybody's mind around what they've been doing where you have...
done interviews or gathered the information and then shown them and said, hey, this is what we have put together. And kind of like you said, had that moment of enlightenment that's like, wow, we were really wrong about something or now I really see what this is. What have been some of your experiences like that working with some clients?
Veronica S. (15:32.178)
I think because we work with so many different kinds of clients and in so many different industries, a lot of the times we're learning ourselves. And so there's always aha moments because we come in thinking sometimes that we know too, right? But we are one thing that we pride our company culture on is admitting we don't know, being okay with iterations, being okay with saying this isn't right, this isn't, you know, this is wrong, because that's the only way you learn and grow.
But also we like to come in with being like, we don't know yet until we know. But we've had some great moments, some clients with color performances, how some colors work versus on certain people and moods and how some don't, like some clients will come in and they'll have very vibrant colors and they'll realize that the industry that they're in and the people that they're talking to neutral is going to set the tone better for what they're doing, right? So if they're working in healthcare and it's for...
maternity or like more so around women of a certain age and certain category. There are certain colors that you would use that you wouldn't use on like in restaurants. Same goes for cultural. There's moments where we've had a client who's come to us and we had to make sure that we were using the right icons because we had food like Asian.
Hannah (16:36.281)
Thanks for watching!
Veronica S. (16:54.114)
themed icons and Asia is huge. Asia is tons of different places. And so the foods that we were seeing in the icons were not aligned with the fact that this was a Korean client. And so the foods weren't Korean, they were Chinese. And it was like, things like that came out. And so there's moments where you do things and you see things and the client sees things and sees, oh, all of these things that you do and the reason that you're doing it and the methods in which you use to do it are important.
And a lot of other companies, they skip those things. Some people will just use a certain color because the client wants it. And like, let's say it is a cultural thing. There's clients where it's like, we know that in this country, you can't use that color. Like we know here in America, certain colors perform a certain way, but in other countries they won't and they'll be looked at as negative. Why? Because we have history that we can put into play with why that works. And then we have data points that show why people react to certain colors in certain countries a certain way.
I can go on. We have ageism things that come up where it's like, well, your demographic is not young people. You're targeting older people. So we have to make your text a certain size or people aren't gonna read it right. They're going to be trying to zoom in on your application. And so, yeah, we have moments, every single project where we learn something and we're like, this is something that we bring into our work. But I don't know. Did you?
Want anything more specific?
Kyle (18:22.829)
No, I think those are some great examples because you touch on so many good points that I think can get lost if we're not out there really thinking.
Hannah (18:31.421)
Kyle, you keep cutting out for us.
Veronica S. (18:33.279)
Yeah.
Kyle (18:34.373)
Okay, I'm sorry. Yeah, it's the internet. Am I back? Back, there we go. Okay, I think you bring up so many really great points about really understanding users and the context, because if we're not really getting into some of those details, we may be overlooking some really important parts. Like you mentioned the colors or the specific icons.
Hannah (18:36.772)
Uh huh.
Veronica S. (18:37.13)
It's not you, it's the connection probably.
Veronica S. (18:43.295)
Yeah.
Hannah (18:43.334)
Yeah.
Kyle (19:04.613)
or how our target users are using the products. And those become really important to the overall user experience. I remember one app that we were building, when we went out and actually watched users using it, most of them were using it with gloves on. And that was an important thing for us to know because the icons were way too small, like the buttons and everything were way too small for them to be using effectively.
Veronica S. (19:23.873)
Mmm
Kyle (19:34.165)
with gloves on. And so we had to like actually make everything bigger in the app so that people who were using it could effectively use it. And these are the types of things like you mentioned that you really have to do, like you were saying, the research and have the understanding of who your users are in order to do it well. And so I think it's, there's such great points in understanding your users and understanding the experience in order to create a really good
Veronica S. (19:42.08)
Yeah.
Veronica S. (19:53.035)
Yeah.
Kyle (20:04.197)
product or a really great user experience. I'm really interested too, are there common themes that you see as you're working with lots of different clients and lots of different customers that kind of cut across user experience or cut across industries that lots of people are making mistakes around, that tend to be common mistakes that people make as far as user experience goes? Like you come into
engagements or you come into customers and most people are making these types of mistakes that you kind of see over and over again.
Veronica S. (20:42.639)
Um, Hannah? What do you think?
Hannah (20:45.529)
Hmm.
Veronica S. (20:47.202)
I definitely think ageism or not ageism, but age plays a huge role in like things that are missed. Like now that we're getting into, we're in 2024 and so everyone has a mobile phone, right? But we have apps that are targeting us, right? Apps that are targeting our parents, apps that are targeting our, the babies, the kids, cause kids are using phones now at younger and younger ages. And
I'm definitely seeing a challenge for a lot of businesses because they want to reach everyone, right? They want to be like Instagram, or even Facebook. Let's say Facebook. They have a huge range. Their range is absolutely ridiculous. And so there's challenges with building out familiar experiences for such a large range of people and ages. We know that our generation was, we're used to hamburger menus. Older generation, they don't know what hamburger menus are.
which is why we have now in some apps where it says menu instead of the hamburger. And we know that the younger generation, they're used to the hamburger that's three dots, right? Like they know that before we even would, they'd know how to find settings. And so I think that is definitely a challenge that I'm seeing a lot of, and I'm looking always to see what research is coming out because we have to know those things on like, what is the youngest generation now getting used to? What...
What's their timeline? What's their timeframe for attention? Like what's their attention span when they're looking at things? Do they enjoy scrolling? How do they enjoy scrolling? How do they like to upload? All of those things are really important, but I feel like a lot of apps are missing the beat there with experiences, yeah.
Kyle (22:32.549)
That's really great. And I think a really interesting point as far as UX and kind of what the UX and user experience is going to be going forward, because we kind of have like these broad sections of the population as far as the kind of the older and this mid-range and then a very younger generation and something for those of us who are designing and working in product to be thinking about.
Veronica S. (22:48.575)
Yeah.
Kyle (23:00.725)
Kind of going along those same lines, what are some of the other trends that maybe you're seeing now and within UX and product development? And then what are some of the things that you kind of see coming down the pike or where do you see some of these things going in the future?
Hannah (23:22.505)
No, it's yours.
Veronica S. (23:23.335)
I don't wanna, Hannah, do you? Okay. Trend wise, I see us going, there's colors. I see us definitely leaving the vibrant pops of color now. We're keeping things a little neutral, which plays very well into what I see coming as a whole, which is authenticity. And that's being very much used visually, literally across.
apps, websites, businesses in general. I think there's like this thing because the newer generations can read through the bullshit if I'm able to say that here. And so a lot of businesses are bringing that in. And with that comes us in product design and marketing knowing, okay, how does that look visually, right? We know that if it's organic, we're going to use green, but now we're not using vibrant greens anymore because it feels a little bit too marketing. So we're using.
softer tones of green to show that it's a real organic. And so I'm seeing that come into play for sure. Typography wise, right? We're using more classic fonts. I wanna say we're only using San versus just Serif, but I feel like there's definitely a mix. But what we're definitely seeing is a lot more smaller font businesses or typography businesses coming in and creating their own.
fonts now that a lot of businesses are buying into and it's becoming a normal thing now where we're able to buy web fonts from like mom and pop shops, which wasn't so popular. Google had monopoly over all of this and now it's changing. I would say that's another trend that's really coming in and using different types of typography like italics versus bolds to kind of...
navigate conversations and content that's used on sites. So now you'll see in a lot of sites, they're gonna use italic in their hero headline with unitalicized to kind of show you how to read it. Like, you know, like this is instead we used to use like super bold to make words pop and we don't do that anymore. Now we keep things soft and it's like, now we're adding tones. So that's another trend. I can keep going. Another trend that we're seeing is,
Veronica S. (25:41.354)
A lot of companies are, apps are still very popular, but I feel like a lot of businesses are focusing solely on web apps, which is interesting. And I'm trying to see how that's gonna play out where it used to be as soon as someone would make a web app, you know that they were gonna make an application. But now applications are just being secondary and being like, we want an application, but we want it to feel like a salad where it's not exactly the web app, because I'm guessing, and this is mainly in probably our industry, we're working more with businesses and SaaS.
But I'm seeing that as well. And that could be because now we have Angular being more popular and React being more popular. I don't know. Yeah.
Kyle (26:24.025)
Yeah, that's really interesting. I think one thing that you kind of touched on there that I think is probably a fascinating trend is this idea of authenticity, of things becoming more natural and more authentic and just more, almost more grounded, I would say. If I could sum up some of the things that I was gathering from what you're saying is that it's...
Veronica S. (26:45.431)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle (26:52.173)
kind of going away from less, I don't know, less unnatural into more of natural and much more authentic and much more grounded in a lot of the things that we're doing.
Veronica S. (27:04.062)
Yeah, on the shell, right? And it makes sense because we're getting into such a synthetic decade or time. AI is so popular right now and it's only the beginning. We're at the baby stage, it hasn't even hatched yet. And so I think that's where this boom comes in where it's like a lot of people are scared because they're not us, right? We're not our audience ever.
Kyle (27:07.438)
Yeah.
Hannah (27:16.743)
Mm-hmm.
Veronica S. (27:31.114)
And a lot of people are scared of AI and what it can do because of everything that's being said. And I think bringing that authenticity in at this time makes a lot of sense. We're moving into a time where AI is becoming a norm. It's going to be forced into us because we have to evolve as people. I talk about this all the time with Hannah, augmented reality is something that is a given. It's happening, it's gonna happen, and it's gonna be very comfortable.
for us to move into because they tried VR. VR can't work because it's too immersive. It takes you out of the world and brings you into another. But with AR augmented reality coming in, this is where we're able to mesh our worlds together. And I'm bringing it up because I wanna talk about it more often with people, but like, that is definitely right around the bend. AI and AR are gonna be like best friends.
and being authentic in these worlds that feel very scary for people because it's very new, I think is what's going to make it really comfortable for us to go into.
Hannah (28:37.637)
I would add that also within content, if we look at content marketing and content culture, how it shifted from very polished, well packaged Instagrams to like unfiltered, like just put your camera roll uploaded on TikTok, right? It's raw. It's like the new generation. Like it just, like people got, we got tired of the overly filtered look. And it just like, what is like the close up face like content look like, and that's really resonated with.
Kyle (28:37.745)
and see you.
Veronica S. (28:51.062)
Raw. Ooh, yes.
Veronica S. (29:02.093)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah (29:05.201)
as we grow more and more and more into virtual reality and virtual world is that the human like rawness and vulnerability is always going to be something that I think we're going to, it's going to be the other side of the weight that's going to be constantly in play with as our virtual reality increases.
Veronica S. (29:12.983)
Yes.
Veronica S. (29:22.858)
universal balance. It was always going to be the fight, the oil and water. Yeah.
Kyle (29:28.805)
That's interesting. And I think you guys have brought up some really, really great points around, again, that rawness and naturalness and authenticity kind of balancing out some of the synthetic and artificial things that are becoming more and more prominent. I'm interested, how do you see the augmented reality and artificial intelligence and all of these things coming to play into a lot of the user experience and the products that we'll be seeing?
How is it happening right now? Like, are you seeing more and more of that in a lot of the work that you're doing? Obviously it's being incorporated into more things that we're doing now. What are you seeing with the current work that you're doing? And then how do you see that kind of changing over, you know, the next few years?
Veronica S. (30:18.222)
So AI is in front of us everywhere. I think there's probably even AI in what we're using right now, right? Features. And it's because it's being used to, I would say, make systems easier or create easier systems for us to use. And so we're in product design. It's a given, right? It's like, how do we make things more efficient? How do we make things easier for our customers or our users to use our product? How can we add?
a smart brain to it without having to do, make algorithms anymore or create different funnels for it anymore. Like now it's like, oh, we can just incorporate these AI tools that make it work and it's done. And so I feel like it's everywhere. It's going to be in all of our social interactions now with auto writing messages, with content, with creating images, creating inspiration for images, creating inspiration for whatever we need it to make.
And so I think that this is just the beginning. Of course, it's growing into becoming an assistant for everyone. And so that's definitely where it's headed. It's we've gotten used to Alexa. Remember how scared everyone was of Alexa and they're still a little scared of Alexa. But we have Alexa, we had Siri, we had all these tools that they tried introducing us to that were very, I don't want to say redlined, but just limited.
Hannah (31:22.777)
Mm-hmm.
Veronica S. (31:44.686)
to what they can do. There wasn't too much range because they couldn't pick up on too much. But now with AI, it's like Alexa and Siri being able to have a brain that works for itself and that's what AI is. So I think it will be in mostly everything that we use. We'll have it in our fridges, we'll have it in our, and we already have it in our phones, we'll have it everywhere. As far as AR comes into play, AR is what's going to be worn.
We have Apple that just released their headset. We have Ray-Bans, which have their camera glasses, which I think that's another form of bringing it in where it's something super lightweight and wearable. But again, with virtual assisting, with creating easier ways for us to use things and businesses are going to hop on it. Apple, you have a tool that can allow you to still see the world while having...
and augmented reality in front of you. Applications, even things that we're working on with healthcare. I worked with a company along, like a few years ago that was for construction. And it was, they used AR because you were able to scan walls and see what's behind the walls. And those, it helped, it made things more efficient. It helped add safety. Like all of those things came into play with this feature. And now we're so far ahead. In just a year, we probably like.
did what we would imagine would take like five decades to do. And so with AR coming in, like imagine how it's gonna help healthcare, how it's gonna help communication, how it's gonna help with a lot of those things. So I think it's gonna play a huge role in our everyday lives. I feel like I'm saying a lot, but not saying enough. There's so much to say. It's so AI and AR in my head blow my mind every day.
When I think about the fact that we're in a place where we used to watch these things on TV and you can think about how if you wear a headset outside and you're able to scan buildings, you're able to talk to people and have translations, you're able to, I don't know, do whatever, like on your, in front of you, hands free.
Kyle (34:03.597)
Yeah. Fast approaching what was like the realm of sci-fi not that long ago, which is just fascinating. Like all of these things that were.
Veronica S. (34:03.803)
The loser on this thing.
Hannah (34:15.821)
Kyle, we lost you.
Kyle (34:21.377)
Am I back? And there we go. We're fast approaching what was the realm of sci-fi just a few years ago. Things that were just imagination and now they're totally realistic possibilities. And it's gonna be fascinating over the next probably few years how these things start to come to light. Yeah.
Veronica S. (34:24.886)
Yes.
Hannah (34:25.0)
Yeah.
Veronica S. (34:33.89)
Yeah.
Veronica S. (34:46.51)
Uh-huh, 100%. Businesses are using these, like being able to have meetings where you're able to feel like you're sitting with someone and changing the way we communicate in a way that doesn't feel like so apart and it brings people together in such a beautiful way. It's amazing, yeah.
Kyle (35:05.989)
Yeah, yeah. Talking about that as well, you mentioned that you launched your company right as COVID was starting. I'm curious about, what was it like doing that? Right as everything was kind of shutting down, you know, being fully remote obviously, and how was it then? How have things changed over the past couple of years? And what has been your approach,
being a remote company and adjusting over the past few years in that type of environment.
Hannah (35:46.429)
Yeah, I would say we are lucky in our timing with when we started the company because two things remote work just became the norm because we've all had to accept it. So even having client meetings, sales calls, just all doing it remotely became the norm and that's how we started and that's what we got used to right away. And we've built our company around it, which
goes into how we run operationally and where we could be efficient. And then two, we had the opportunity to be really heads down. Like starting a business and growing a business is hard work and it's a lot of time spent from other things. And so being in the kind of like the COVID cave of like, what else are you gonna do? Like focusing all of our energy on building our.
our company and especially at that time, V and I, we were in very different time zones. V was actually in Poland working and I was in California. So it's like, I don't know, over 12 hour difference. And we kind of hunkered down and like just got to get to work on the foundational like not sexy stuff of building a business and just working day in and day out, day in and day out for years. And I think the almost like the
Veronica S. (36:47.693)
Yeah.
Hannah (37:08.809)
everything happening around us, like we kind of focused our energy on what we can control. And so I would say for that, I'm really grateful for how we adjusted to it really quickly and how we made it work for us. And I think the other thing that it's taught us from the beginning, it's like really humble beginnings, because we started during the COVID, like during COVID and just learning how to build things when it may not be the most like, optimal state to build a business. And I think
we're going to be in this for a long time and we're going to go through seasons and like life events and business events and world events where it might not be the most optimal for us. But I think we learned, but we learned early on how we can still make moves or pivot to make it work for us or how we take something that feels like a restriction and make it into more of an opportunity. And so I think that mental, like mental gymnastics that we had to do a lot in the beginning, it's...
For me, I find that I'm really grateful for those lessons because I think they just help us to think more agile about how we run our business in general.
Veronica S. (38:16.64)
Yeah.
Kyle (38:20.485)
I think that's really great and really fascinating on how something that was probably just a really difficult and unprecedented time became like a really great opportunity to turn into something like that. Like you said, being in the COVID cave and really just heads down focus for so long. I'm interested as you've gone through that, like what...
Maybe what has surprised you most about building a business? And then what advice would you give to somebody who may be looking to do something similar, like start out on their own and build a business themselves?
Hannah (39:02.429)
Um, it's fucking hard. Is the truth. I think, um, I listened to a lot of Alex Hormoz. And I think he says it a lot of how we, I think when the, in our Instagram and Tik TOK world, there's a lot of illusion and just, of course, showing the highlights and making things look sexier than they are. And there are really great parts to running a business. So highs are high and the lows are low. The weight is heavy though. Like there's a lot.
Kyle (39:04.346)
Ha ha.
Veronica S. (39:05.003)
Girl.
Hannah (39:32.077)
there's uncertainty on so many levels, whether it be someone from your team that's going through something or a sales, sales that we thought we're gonna close and then, and there's just so much uncertainty day over day. And so the emotional, the emotional experience is really varied and wide and you just kind of have to be up for it. And so I think for, I would say the truth is that it's really hard and it's not for
Veronica S. (39:35.776)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah (40:03.793)
it definitely takes someone with a lot of grit. And if you are growth-minded and if you see it, you have to see it as an adventure and experience. Otherwise, there's no, it's not fun. And if it's not fun, you're gonna burn out really quickly. And so if you don't have that mindset, I would say adjust that mindset, set the expectation differently before you start. Otherwise, it'll be such a suffering throughout. I would say the second thing that I've learned personally is...
how we just can't do it alone. Whether it be having a great business partner and V and I talk all the time about how we're so grateful because we, like a lot of businesses are, you know, there's only one owner that could work. It could be a really lonely journey having a great business partner. I would say if you have one, like, you know what it feels like and how much of a, you know, advantage that could be. And cause just the journey is really tough.
And so that would be the other one for sure. And just giving yourself a lot of grace, V and I talk about making a lot of mistakes publicly, making mistakes with our team, trying not to be everyone to everything and being okay with our journey being messy and chaotic and us still showing up. So I always say all those, it's a humbling journey and one that like I personally don't take for granted, but...
Veronica S. (41:08.855)
Yes.
Hannah (41:29.041)
Overall, it's a hard journey, but it's also super rewarding on the other side of it as well.
Veronica S. (41:35.69)
Yeah.
Kyle (41:38.937)
I think you've summed it up very, very nicely on how difficult it is for one, and then what you need in order to be successful and just wanting to do it, having the grit to do it, and then also having the right people as part of it. I think that is such an important thing. So this has been an absolutely great, great conversation. I think we've touched on so many great points.
I would love to dive into so many more of them as well. But I do have a couple of wrap up questions that we like to do with everyone before we end. But before we get to those, is there anything that we didn't get a chance to touch on that you would like to add?
Veronica S. (42:27.594)
I would say one of the surprising things that we've discovered starting of theory is how important it is and how important it is to build a really great village. And I think at first you think that you know what you want in a team. I think you think, oh, I know that these are the things that I need done. This is who can do it because they're great at it. Done. This is how you build a team. And we've learned that is not even close to how it works.
It's surprising to see how much when you have people on your team who are fans of what you're building and on that team, that's what it means, right? They're on the same team. We've learned that people who have that kind of mindset perform better and last longer than the people who might have more experience and they blow them out of the water.
Our team, as we've grown, we've seen people come in and we're like, we're so sure that this is it, we've seen their work, we've seen what they can do. And we're like, they're going to do it. And then we've seen people who've come in and we're like, I work with them a little bit and they'll, they'll evolve and they'll change. And there's just a difference in how they even interact with the team. And I say, that's the biggest surprise is just learning. Just how important it is to build a team. That's a fan of what you're building versus building a team that just looks
like they can perform better. I don't know how to word it, but yeah.
Hannah (43:52.693)
Mm-hmm.
Kyle (43:56.353)
Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. And that's so important. That's great. Well, I do have a couple of wrap up questions for both of you. And these are just, they don't have to be necessarily business or product or UX related. But have either of you watched or read or listened to anything recently that you would like to share?
Veronica S. (43:57.741)
Yeah.
Hannah (44:12.76)
Yeah.
Veronica S. (44:23.199)
Hannah definitely.
Hannah (44:25.003)
Yeah
what I'm trying to I think I'm like reading three books at a time and never well, but I would say I really like reading sports books like mindset books because I think a lot of business and life is about mindset and so one of my favorite books that I always recommend it's called what doesn't kill us and it's like the story about Wim Hof I think people know him with as like the ice man and that's kind of like how
the cold plunge revolution started. But I enjoyed that book because it taught me about what we think our minds are capable, what our limits are versus what our actual potential is. And so I think about that book a lot as I tackle things that are new or intimidating, or I find that I think it's not for me. And I always try to challenge myself of like, well, is that just your mind or is that?
the truth. And so I think that's a great book to see evidence of someone who has gone to do things that science has said it's not possible to do, yet he's achieved it like three times over. And so I would say that's the book that I always enjoy and recommend.
Kyle (45:43.785)
Awesome. Veronica, anything?
Hannah (45:57.753)
Kyle.
Veronica S. (45:58.248)
Are you talking?
Kyle (46:00.615)
Oh, Veronica, did you have anything?
Yeah.
Hannah (46:05.465)
Hahaha!
Veronica S. (46:06.114)
You've been freezing, so I wasn't sure if we were talking over you.
Veronica S. (46:12.02)
Yes!
say if I was to recommend a book, I've recommended it before. It's called Build the Damn Thing by Katherine Finney. It's really good. I think it's more tactical based, I would say for sure. And it's like for anyone looking to build out an MVP product. Maybe you don't know where to start. Maybe you don't know like how to even think about capital or anything. I feel like it's the best book for anyone who's in that realm. Just pick it up and read it.
Um, yeah.
Kyle (46:47.465)
Awesome. We'll put both of those books in the show notes so you can check those out. And then final question, do either of you have any products that you've been using that you'd like to recommend? Either digital products or physical products, anything that you have liked recently.
Veronica S. (47:05.634)
Figma, recommend to anyone building anything that's going to get developed. With our new dev update, it's beautiful. It works perfectly. We are a Figma based studio. Um, so I would definitely recommend Figma and then click up is what we use for our product, our project management. And I think that tool is amazing too. There's so much packed into it that it outperforms every other product that we've tried. Yeah.
Hannah (47:33.773)
For me, it's all physical. I really like physical products, but I'll say Moleskine. I love Moleskine, like planner, Moleskine notebook for journaling, and then I just got a bigger Moleskine for planning out the year. So if you like physical products, I think there's no journal like a Moleskine, just the pen, the how the pen and the ink hits the paper. It's outstanding.
Veronica S. (47:37.813)
Mm.
Veronica S. (47:57.774)
I will second that because I use Moleskine Sweet, but on my tablet. And if you want the same feel, you just buy the paper that goes over the tablet and it feels like you're writing, but their journal and their apps are top notch. So yeah, I definitely agree with you Hannah, Moleskine's great.
Hannah (48:03.435)
I hope so.
Kyle (48:19.961)
Nice. Yeah, those are some great recommendations. Awesome. Well, we will put all the links to those in the show notes. Where can people find out more about you, Hannah, Veronica, as well as about Oak Theory?
Veronica S. (48:20.782)
It's funny.
Hannah (48:38.005)
We are websites oaktheory.co and that's our main site. We are on Instagram oaktheory.co as well, as well as on LinkedIn and Veronica and I are trying to be more active on Instagram through our own personal handles. But yeah, you could just find us through our main company handles.
Veronica S. (48:58.124)
Yeah.
Kyle (49:02.385)
Okay, perfect. We'll put all the links to those in the show notes as well. Well, Hannah, Veronica, it has been an absolute pleasure talking with both of you. I think this has been incredibly insightful and incredibly thoughtful and a great conversation. So I appreciate everything that you've shared and all of the conversation. I think it's been superb.
Hannah (49:23.949)
Thank you, Kyle. Thanks for having us.
Veronica S. (49:24.626)
Yeah, this was great. I loved it. Thank you.
Kyle (49:27.417)
All right. Yeah, and thank you everyone for listening.