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Discover the secrets of successful property management and investing on "The Property Investors Handbook" podcast. Join Colleen Sutherland as she shares expert insights and strategies for acquiring, managing, and maximising returns on real estate investments. Whether you're a beginner or seasoned investor, this podcast is your essential guide to navigating the world of property investment. Tune in and unlock the keys to financial success in real estate.
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This podcast is brought to you by Podpro Australia. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Property Investors Handbook. Now today we're going to delve into one of the most challenging aspects of property management and that's evictions and disputes.
Joined by
Colleen Sutherland, once again, our respected property manager with extensive experience.
We're going to unpack the legal ethical considerations of this eviction process And how to handle disputes with fairness and professionalism. Colleen, welcome back. Thank you, Adam. Okay, well let's first of all talk about maybe some reasons that would lead to an eviction. What sort of things, how does, How does it get to that point?
Let me say, QCAT is very, can be very intimidating. So if you can negotiate your way out of actually having to go, that'll be the best scenario. Right. Because once you get to that point, and you're in front of a tribunal member, it can be quite scary. Right. And you have to have your ducks in a row.
That's how it happens.
Yes. Let's wind it back even a bit further. So for an eviction to happen, you go through all the, and we'll get to that bit in a minute, but it ends up being at a tribunal, physically being there, you as the property manager and the tenant for you, what, to put your arguments forward on why, or for them, why not, and for the tribunal to make a decision.
Is that how it happens?
Yes. So it is, it looks like a court.
Right.
It's called. A tribunal. Yep. But it looks like a court. And going into court, you need to be well prepared, have your argument, you know, well laid out, and you've just got minutes for him to decide. So it needs to be first time. You have to have everything sorted.
Right. Yes. Let me ask, if you've, and we'll get back to reasons to get to this point of eviction, but once you've decided that you want a tenant evicted, for whatever reason that has been, and you decide you're going to go through that process, The tenant doesn't want to fight it. They realize they're in the wrong.
They're happy to, but does it then still have to go to, or they just agree to leave? Just agreed. It's a different thing then isn't it? It's terminating the lease.
Yes. So you can either go there to terminate, have the lease terminated. So you're going to apply for a warrant of possession. Right. Is, is the landlord or the agent and the tenant will either agree to leave Right.
But to leave would be your best option, but then sometimes that tenant's got nowhere to go. So we do need to take that into consideration, but yeah, the tenant can leave and it's all at an end. So even if the agent or the landlord has applied to QCAT and got a hearing date, that can always be withdrawn.
Right. So tell me, what are the most common reasons for you to, that lead to an eviction?
Leading to an eviction is generally rent
arrears. Right. Just not paying your rent.
Yeah. When they've stopped paying the rent or it can be you've caused extensive damage. I'm not renewing the lease. You need to move out.
And then the tenant sort of digs their heels in.
Right. Okay. And from that point, so let's, let's say let's use rental arrears being the one where we've just, there's another episode that you can look at. We look at that in detail. So. You've done the notices. They're still not paying. How long does it take?
That how long's a bit of string at the moment when your notice to leave expires and you haven't left, then we apply to QCAT to have the tenancy ended. And as I mentioned, that's called a warrant of possession. We applying and that's all we can apply for. We have to go back to claim the bond. So when you're.
possession, which means ending the tenancy, you can only do that when everything else is secondary. That's an urgent application to the tribunal. Urgent, however, has no effect. no urgency in the courthouse. Um, and it can take, you know, 21 days or it could take two months.
Really?
Yeah. So that is up to courthouse to tell us when the hearing date is so that sometimes when the tenancy's, Oh, the hearing date's not until the end of June.
I've got till the end of June. And he has. Unfortunately. And that's if he's not doing, continuing not to pay
rent, correct. Suitably?
Yes. So that's why we always strongly recommend that the landlord have a really good quality landlord's protection insurance because that will cover until we can get the tenant out.
So we've got, say we have to wait two months for an urgent application. The tenant can stay there and not pay any rent. Or if he's trying to do the right thing and he's trying to leave, you keep paying your rent and, you know, you've got until this date, but just keep paying your rent.
Sure, sure. So we've all seen these, uh, current affair episodes where they're knocking on the door because the landlord hasn't been able to get them out.
Does this still happen? And I remember seeing a number of these where. For whatever reason that they just literally physically can't legally get them out of it out of a house How does that happen
if you've got a property manager? you need to have a skilled one who knows the steps on how to Get to getting the tenant out And you have to have all the paperwork done in the right order at the right time.:
Right. Because if you get all the way to court and he's looking for a mistake and he, oh, found one. Start again. Right. So we would then have to turn around, start again with, even with the notices or the application. Um, And that, that makes it a really long process, but if you've got a really good property manager who's got their notices done on time, application done on time, the right communication to and from the tenant in between times, then you're right to proceed.
Right.
Yeah. And then you minimise that loss.
Sure. Yeah. So talk to me then about the process. You, you go to QCAT and he stamps it. Yep. Yep. Yep. You're evicted. How does it then physically, they're given a notice to get out within a certain period of time? Is that the next step? And what if they don't?
Okay. So say the landlord agent has been awarded in favour.
That's what it's called. And yes, here's your warrant of possession, but I'm now giving them 7, 14, 21 days. So it will depend on then the tenant's circumstance. If the tenant has. a family, that's always considered differently. Sure. If the tenant doesn't have a family, depending on the urgent nature, then it could be seven, 14, 14 days.
So you have to take that into consideration. And again, that may not be the property manager's fault. So don't straight up bear up her because that's just the way we are obliged to run by their timing.
Sure. Sure. Sure.
So, you've been awarded favour, in favour of a termination, then he will let the tenant know you have to be out by this date, and you, the property manager or landlord has to go back to the courthouse and pick the warrant up.
You have to book in the police, if they're still in there, and the police go around to you. Right. Move them on. Wow. So
that's.
And then. Have you seen that in your time? You have? I have. And I'd like to say, no, I'm on top of everything. Oh, look. I don't think you are. We can't help human nature. So if that tenant wants to dig their heels in and doesn't care about the long term ramifications, he will.
So, I've had two instances, one was really quite sad, but two instances where the police have had to turn up and we have to be there at the same time with a locksmith, so we're changing the locks and tenant, you can get what you need out now. and you'll have to make arrangements to come back, or you've got one hour, throw all your stuff on the footpath, and it gets ugly.
Oh,
it would. It's a
really awful part of our job, but it's, it's necessary at times. :
Sure, sure. And look, I guess being the, you know, the property manager that you are and the agency that you run, you wouldn't have seen a lot of this because although, as you said, you can't help human nature. You would have all the processes and things in place to, you know, avoid this at all costs because you manage it well.
Yes, so we do manage it well and it's the knowledge and experience as well. So I've had 35 plus years in property management, so I've got my system down pat. And to me it's My training has been on the job. Yep. You know, you can't go and seek training for that particular physical part of the job. Mm. You can receive training on the theory, physical, not so much.
Mm. So, you do need a strong property manager who needs to stand up. and do the hard jobs. Sure. Yeah. Sure.
Have you ever had a scenario that your owner, you're a property investor, hasn't wanted those tenants there for a multitude of reasons and wanted to move towards an eviction and are there other grounds to be able to do that?
And you're talking about going to QCAT to get a warrant or just ending the tenancy?
Well, either or.
So to end the tenancy, we have lost the ability for the words, no grounds. So we used to be able to send them a notice to leave. And then at the end of their tenancy, no grounds, just not renewing the tenancy.
Sure. It's just called something different now. Right. So we haven't lost that ability at all, but you need to make sure you've got a property manager who knows. What to do at exactly the right time because timing is everything. You sort of plan with the end in mind. And to do that, you need to have all your paperwork, all your communications in a row.
So when I have to apply to QCAT, I know I've done the right thing. Yep.
Yeah. Right. So again, just another reason why having a good property manager in your corner just pays dividends.
The thing is, we can all collect the rent and fix the leaky taps. We can all do that. And that's why some agents are cheaper because it's when it gets difficult or when there's a circumstance of that's not normal.
So we're all going in a straight line until we have to go in a curve. It's like an insurance company. They're all good until you go to make a claim and then you realize they were terrible, but they're fantastic. It's the same with property managers until we get a curve ball and know exactly what to do.
in each scenario, we all appear to be the same. It's the, the skills and the knowledge
and the experience. Yeah. But come to the fore when, when it's needed. Yes. When it goes pear shaped. So. And you're paying for that piece of, that, that peace of mind.
Yes, you are. To know that someone's in your corner and knows exactly what to do.:
Because again, and I bring this up in just about every episode, Colleen, let's talk about an eviction and what we are doing here, How would your average dough blow who has just got a great property investment portfolio, but is landlording himself know how to do this?
Exactly. That's where you need the guidance of a really good skilled property manager.
And then they'll be able to tell you needs to be done and then is able to do it. So your other scenario at QCAT might be the tenant has gone now and now we need to make a claim for the bond or above the bond. And so they're two different things. And it's also they're not urgent applications. So you could be waiting months to actually get a hearing date, but that's, they just separate everything and it's Get them out, now you come back for the bond, and over the bond, and then they're not paying, so what you do when they don't pay, which is one of your questions at the start, there is a process of that they're not abiding by the court orders, and then there's another process again.
Sure.
Let me throw you a curveball. Somebody's managing their own property, they're a property investor, haven't got a property manager such as yourself in place, gets to one of these scenarios, it could be anyone we've talked about in just about any Any, uh, of these podcasts. But today we're talking eviction.
Gets to the point where the rental arrears isn't so far. They're, they're quite in within their rights and want to head towards eviction. Can they come to somebody like you at that point and engage you specifically for that purpose? That job is that a service you offer? It is. Wow.
Yeah, I know. I did not know that.
I have done it for a couple of landlords who again have managed their own properties and they have got to the QCAT stage and I have a solicitor who refers them to me. Right. And there is a fee. Of course. Yeah.
You'd expect that.
Yes.
Obviously.
So it's a you know, whether they want me just to get them out or they want me to make that claim on the bond above the bond, that sort of thing.
So yes, I can do just that part.
Okay. Is that something you do for other parts of the property management process? So it's funny, I did another podcast just recently with a recruitment company who, they called them unbundled services. So rather than end to end, they would offer just to sit in with them.
We'll just come and help you interview, or we can just do the reference checks once you've, or we can just advertise and give you the shortlist. You take it from there. So broke up each part and someone could pay a fee for that. Is that something that's done in the property management game? You have just mentioned you could help with just QCAT issues, but are there other areas that can be broken up that someone can just come to?
You or anyone else just to get a piece of the process done?
Yes. In the short answer, yes. So I've got a couple of clients who I just do rent control. Right. Which means I collect the rent, I chase the rent if it needs to, I issue the notice, and I get it to the stage that if they still haven't paid rent, then I issue the right notice at the right time and then I hand it over to the landlord to take it on.
So that's called rent control. Yep. Um, I don't do their maintenance. I don't do their paying their bills and all the other full suite of services that comes along with it. I have one client who we just do his inspections, his routine inspections. And that's because he lives next door, but he. is a quadriplegic.
Right. Yeah. Sure. And it makes sense that he just gets someone in to do the physical side of it. So whether that's the routine inspections, but we also did his entries and his exits and then we did leasing for him. So we were just doing those couple of things out of the whole suite of services. So yes, that can be done.
Wow.
Okay. I think there's a whole other episode we, we need to do on, uh, just those pieces. So fantastic. Well, look, I think that pretty much brings us to, to an end. Eviction is something we hope no one out there has to actually deal with, whether that's through a property agent or by themselves. Cause it's, as you said, it's not a fun part.
It's not
pleasant, but it is. If you treat it like a court hearing, you have to have all your ducks in a row, whether it's the paperwork, getting them out or what you're claiming and photo, clear photos and quotes and invoices. Yeah. You've got to have all of that. So it's not something I would recommend a landlord do.
Unless he's had experience in the courtroom. Sure.
And look, when we, I mentioned earlier the, the scenario that we've all seen on, on a current affair where they're there with a camera crew and the landlord saying, I can't get them, get them out. They've been there now for two years, not paying rent. I'm guessing, based on everything I've just learned through you, it's because they didn't have a property manager, they've probably tried and got it wrong over and over and over again.
So extension, extensions, try again, get it wrong, no evidence. And so hence, we're, we're a year down the track and they're still in there, still not paying rent. And you know,
that often happens with family and friends.
Really?
Yeah. Really? It's not as, as common as if they, they were just a Joe Blow and I put them in there.
It's often family and friends and they take advantage. So when people say, Oh no, I've got my sister in there and things just go pear shaped, that's where you need a third party. So there's not that emotional connection. And we just make the decisions and just do it that way. And like you said, there's, Oh, okay.
Well, if you're going to pay next week and that does drag out. And
suddenly you've got a big problem.
Yeah. So often when you see those current affair programs, one or more steps have been missed. It could be you've got no lease and you've just put them in there cause you know, they're your mum's friends, aunties, cousins.
Is there a
leg to stand on in that scenario?
You do, but you do need to know the law, the legislation, and you can go from there.
Well, look, thanks once again, Colleen. This has been an eye opener for me, it really has, and I think anyone listening out there would have got a fair bit out of this for understanding the process and just how complicated and difficult it can be, and again, another reason to have Colleen and her team in your corner.
So look, again, as I always do remind you, subscribe to our podcast. Give us a A five star, uh, review. We'd really love that and we look forward to you joining us on another episode of the Property Investors Handbook podcast.
Thank you so much, Adam. And if you wanted to know more, just go to our website, which is www.spmgforsutherlandspropertymanagementgroup.com au and you can email or give us a call and we can certainly see what we can do to help.
Perfect.