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The built hapily podcast is about building apps, companies, and relationships in the HubSpot ecosystem. As HubSpot grows, so does the opportunity - and this podcast puts you in the room with the people making it all happen.
Hosted by Dax and Max, built hapily goes behind the scenes with HubSpot developers, solutions partners, startup founders and community leaders. Each episode delivers tactical insights into launching and scaling businesses around the HubSpot platform.
However, this podcast is about more than just building software. It's about building authentic connections, fulfilling careers, and lives you can be proud of. Guests share their personal journeys, hard-won lessons and philosophies for not just achieving success, but finding purpose and happiness along the way.
After all, this is about more than making apps. It's about building hapily - and you're invited along for the ride. Join Dax, Max and their guests to construct the life you've been dreaming of, one conversation at a time.
bhp S2E6 - The Vonazon Crew -Full
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[00:00:00] Right now everybody is in what I like to call the AI panic, right? Where they're just like, oh, we have to figure out how we're gonna be an AI first agency and have AI services and use AI ourself and leverage AI for this, and AI for the.
[00:00:13] And then cold call.
[00:00:14] Yeah. are you guys doing? Is there some sort of golden formula?
[00:00:20] On today's episode of The built hapily Podcast, we have Miles and Zach from Vonazon. An elite partner, digging deep on how they've retained their users and how marketing is their key to success, not just marketing their company, but actually doing marketing services. Stay tuned for that and more.
[00:00:55] Well guys, it's Zach. It's Miles
[00:00:57] . I wanted to have you guys on the Vonazon [00:01:00] crew. I was really intrigued by the vision. I was really intrigued by how you guys are showing yourself off online, but give the people a little intro who you guys are, where you come from.
[00:01:09] Miles, I'm pointing this you first.
[00:01:10] All right. I'm Miles England. I am the director of partnerships and manager of the onboarding team at Vonazon. Have been for the last I. God, four plus years now it's been a, it's been a ride.
[00:01:24] Managing partnerships in HubSpot land is always a ride. I'll tell you. That's a very generous way to give it. Generous thing
[00:01:30] no, no comment yet comment.
[00:01:34] Yeah, for sure on that one. I'm Zack Panzarella, I do a lot of our content work and our SEO work. I'm also kinda like the Swiss Army knife of Vonazon right now. I just help out where I'm needed. I've done some sales work here and there. I do our social media, so wherever they need me that's what that's what I'll do.
[00:01:51] So, you never know what it's gonna be and it's a lot of fun that way.
[00:01:55] is, man. So the guys we were talking, we were looking and looking at a bunch of different stuff we're [00:02:00] doing at apps and working together. And I wanted to hear a little bit more about this path to Elite, because there's not a, there's only a few elite partners out there, and that badge is starting to weigh pretty heavily in the ecosystem.
[00:02:12] Would love to understand how that path went for you guys and how long you've been at it
[00:02:17] Oh my God. How much time do you have? I remember that.
[00:02:21] got about 45 for particular.
[00:02:24] Well, just letting, just to keep to keep an answer somewhat short and without me getting just pent up with all of that wonderfulness that happened. It was a hard slog. It was in fact incredibly difficult. HubSpot doesn't make it easy, which is why there aren't so many of us.
[00:02:39] We're actually one of the smallest elite partners. So it was even harder. You have to manage a certain amount of clients. You've gotta. To have a certain MRR and an a RR, it's absolutely insane what they ask for sometimes, especially from, a smaller company's view.
[00:02:55] It just
[00:02:55] it meant our team. Worked.
[00:02:57] We took on, we were I [00:03:00] remember those days. That was back in when we were back in office, and those were the days where
[00:03:04] we were working, like in office until eight, 9:00 PM
[00:03:08] just still again, we're a team of, we were a team of 30 at that time, and
[00:03:12] we've got 10, 15 people at eight o'clock at night, still in the office.
[00:03:16] Because we're managing clients, we were doing extra social, just we all took on extra work. It was this,
[00:03:22] by no means was this like one person on this team. It was a collection of us that basically said, we want this goal for us.
[00:03:31] And the CEO encouraged us to really just. Bend over backwards to really get it done and just pretty much double our client load, which at the time was insane.
[00:03:42] But it also helped us to hire on more people because we were of course, bringing in more, but
[00:03:47] it was that probably six months of pure insanity of just how much we were working and how many clients we took on more than we probably ever did prior to that. But as far as what it [00:04:00] takes.
[00:04:00] It's a buy-in from, not just 'cause the CEO can say we wanna do this all day, but we
[00:04:05] as a staff, we really came together and just absolutely, worked to get it. And that's what it takes.
[00:04:12] Like work. Never heard hard work getting
[00:04:14] I just, again, I look back at that time and I just remember what are we gonna do for dinner?
[00:04:18] Oh, it's nine o'clock. It's a little past that 'cause Well, 'cause especially that's one of the things when you're in office, you you have that camaraderie a little bit more. 'cause you're all there. And I, again, Zach, you were in the office for a while as well and it was, and that's what it was like for a while of just, we were all there late and just working.
[00:04:40] definitely
[00:04:41] It sounds like it got to a point where you didn't have to. Doing that. So like did guys find the balance and strike that balance and find the sustainable way of doing it?
[00:04:54] Well, just because of what we were bringing in that MRR and the, again, we were, my [00:05:00] CEO said, look, I'm gonna go into the negative here to make sure that you guys aren't gonna have to continue to do this. And so we brought on more team. Actually, I think Zach was one of the people that got hired right after that.
[00:05:10] And he came on because we just, we needed a sweet started enough. We needed people that can just fill spots in certain situations with certain clients. It's like they needed SEO. Great. We're gonna, we're gonna bring in somebody that can do it. We needed content for this. Great. We're gonna bring in somebody that can do it.
[00:05:26] And thankfully the CEO also had the buy-in and understanding that we were gonna work. We just needed a little bit of help, and so we kept bringing in people as that kind of exploded. And then of course, the clients got dished out a little bit more. The work became a little bit more manageable and sustainable by hiring, the right people as well.
[00:05:45] Again, that was almost three years ago, Zach.
[00:05:48] Yeah. Three years ago
[00:05:49] It sounds like you hit the gas pedal super hard, right? And then you had this acceleration that carried momentum, but then what you did is you slowly slotted the [00:06:00] people in as it was needed to keep the momentum going before it crashed. And like you could sustain it.
[00:06:05] What was like,
[00:06:06] year that, that we were allowed to, we all doubled our workload and then so we were able to hire on more people to help us disperse it, to help us,
[00:06:14] Yeah. Here's a question. So you guys you ramped up to Elite, right? Is there any, and again the reason I asked this question is we're trying to celebrate what people built and tell the story and get advice that you guys have out there and really inspire the next generation of people building anything on HubSpot.
[00:06:33] Be it a. Be it a partner agency or like a, an app or whatever it may be. What
[00:06:38] is there some sort of
[00:06:39] like
[00:06:41] golden formula
[00:06:43] or some kind of rule of thumb around managing clients are bringing on what you're spending, resources, you're using, things like that, that you guys have refined over time.
[00:06:53] It doesn't have to be obviously like a numbered equation, but any sort of rule of thumb on like how you strike that balance and keep it sustainable [00:07:00] to to grow essentially.
[00:07:01] Two things. Again, one of those being the team is still the same. Zach was hired three years ago tho, that those people that we hired in that time have relatively stayed on board. We have. Have the same strategist still, and what that allows is for us to retain those clients.
[00:07:17] 'cause again, it's not just get to the number and you're good. It's get to the number and stay at the number. So at that point, what we look at is, okay, one of my, one of my senior strategists, she's working with the same client she was when we hit Elite, yeah. Some are always gonna drop off.
[00:07:32] New ones are gonna come. It's, life welcome to it. But it's the ability for our team. To now continue to work with the same people, to continue to bring in that, that same MRR. And now when we see, a multitude of clients, nobody's scared of it. We know the CEO's gonna have our back if we need him to.
[00:07:49] We also know, 'cause he's done it. We also know that, we can handle a little bit more for a little bit of time knowing that is, we're gonna have backup. And that's the thing [00:08:00] there's regular check-ins on all this. We constantly, are on calls with HubSpot themselves.
[00:08:05] Basically just it's check-ins. I have a weekly call with HubSpot basically to say, Hey, and sometimes I'm on that call twice or three times a week just to check in on where we are as an elite partner, because not only, again, you gotta, sustain it, but they're increasing it. So we've gotta make sure that, okay, this is where we're at, this is what we need and this is what we can do.
[00:08:26] Okay, these are all the same, but we need to make sure to bring this new into the fold and keep 'em for three years. Keep 'em for five
[00:08:32] Yeah. Yeah. And so it sounds, okay, so this is. What I'm learning here is that there's some kind of like secret to retention that you guys have unlocked here,
[00:08:43] Yes. Let's talk a little bit
[00:08:44] Not only for your customers, but it also sounds a big secret is that you're keeping your employees around and they wanna stay around and they want to keep working.
[00:08:52] So, Zach, I'm gonna, in a second, I wanna ask you this because I can see how. Constantly having turnover and a lot of attrition is just gonna be bumps in the road [00:09:00] and slow things down. You gotta train new people. You gotta find new people. HubSpot, expertise is at a premium these days.
[00:09:05] Maybe I'm pretty sure it is. It's like it's hard to find good HubSpot talent because there's so many partners. Having to scale up because HubSpot really, and as you can see, they wanna completely dump offboarding or onboarding off their balance sheet onto partners, right? So everyone's trying to suck up as much talent as possible.
[00:09:22] So it's harder to find that. It's more expensive to find that. But you guys have had pros that have stuck around for a while, Zach, what are they doing to keep you there and keep you motivated and keep you excited? That's what I want to know.
[00:09:34] That's probably the thing that I think stuck out to me the first three years ago, is this team is just incredibly talented. It first taught me the value of client retention with specific people on the team and how much clients. Seem to value the people on the team over the team itself, or the name attached to it.
[00:09:51] And that retention, I think, has really allowed us to keep clients for, since I've been here, a lot of the clients that I'm working with now are still the same people that they were three years ago. [00:10:00] That has really seemed to be our secret sauce. And it's really when you have a staff that talented, it pushes you so hard to be the best version of yourself.
[00:10:07] So you just, you can't screw around, for lack of a better word with this company because someone else is constantly doing the best version of their work. And it's a good environment. It's not an environment that I think makes you feel uncomfortable in that way, but I. It just is you're constantly being pushed 'cause everyone around you is doing work that is what you're the best that you're capable of.
[00:10:28] So it's, it really is what it is. I think it's being picky about how you build the team and then choosing the right people to move forward with and give them those responsibilities and put them in front of clients.
[00:10:40] Yeah. It's a really, interesting idea, right? That retention. We talked, we just talked with Sam Anderson, shout out to Origin 63 about retention and their focus on retention. But when you talk about your focus on retention internally, I. Helping you guys speed up so that you don't hit this? Oh man, we have to work on people problems because once you start to get, that was that rule of threes and [00:11:00] tens.
[00:11:00] You got three people, then 10, then 30, then when you get to a hundred, it's gonna change. Then 300 is gonna, all your systems are gonna break. What systems do you guys use, aside from the ones that keep the ship running, but what systems do you guys use internally as a elite partner to help run the ship?
[00:11:16] You talking about apps?
[00:11:18] Talking about the things that you're using every day outside of Slack pop.
[00:11:23] Besides, like we got, Clickup is our P is our pretty much our project management tool. But we're HubSpot, at the end of the day. Clickup and
[00:11:31] walk the walk and use HubSpot for as much as we can. So, 'cause there's a few things that we should be using HubSpot for because, yeah, if we're the experts, we should be using it for everything. And it's capable of pretty much everything. It is a very robust platform.
[00:11:46] So, yeah, I think for the most part it's HubSpot and Clickup for our work organization.
[00:11:50] Yeah,
[00:11:51] That's a big shout for people that are trying to. Over tool their systems and over tool their agency because they're like, oh, I need this, but I need that. This is gonna help me on [00:12:00] outbound. This is gonna help me on this. I gotta use this enrichment. I, HubSpot does do the damn.
[00:12:05] So
[00:12:05] actually my number one, it's my number one complaint when I get a new client that they say, it's like we just, we spread ourselves too thin. We're in, we're using this for this, we're using this for this, we're using this for this. It's so where's your data? I don't know. And that's one of the biggest problems that we actually solve.
[00:12:22] Because it's, that's what hubs, that's one of the things that HubSpot solves just in itself. But as a, as v is on, one of our biggest, challenges with our biggest pain points is we don't know where our data is because this team uses this team uses this team doesn't like this, but they use this.
[00:12:38] So they, they u it's just, it's such a problem, but that's why we don't do that.
[00:12:44] I've got I wanna talk to you guys about something so. A big thing that I've seen. So I've been, I started onboarding customers back in 2015. That was like where I first entered HubSpot's world, and it was still very much it was right, yeah. Right when the CRM came [00:13:00] out.
[00:13:00] But it was like still very much like this is a marketing product with a CRM attached to it, versus this is a serum of the marketing product. And back then, partners were all. Inbound marketing agencies. And they were providing marketing services. And then I think the thing that's like, to me sad that I've seen over the years is a lot of HubSpot partners shy away from doing that kind of work.
[00:13:27] Really just focus on, we are, we're a rev ops agency only, and we're just gonna set up your CRM and give you the keys. And we're not doing marketing services at all. It doesn't look like you guys have done that. It looks like you guys are still very much offering marketing services. I'm looking here on your website and you've got a plethora of marketing services.
[00:13:46] Which I think is awesome. I think a lot of HubSpot agencies have lost their way, like getting away from doing that. Especially if they give any sort of ~shit ~about their customers being successful using HubSpot. Because at the end of the day, no matter how much [00:14:00] anyone wants to talk about how strategies have changed and this, that, and the other thing, like inbound marketing is still the fuel that you put into the Ferrari that is HubSpot, right?
[00:14:10] If you're not doing anything to gas the engine. You know what I mean? What's the point of you actually using it and, especially when you start to think about your guys', intention of pushing retention as hard as you can and keeping your customers around and keeping 'em successful.
[00:14:27] I'd have to think a really healthy marketing strategy using HubSpot is something that they're gonna need in order to be able to do that. And you guys are clearly doing it right. So talk to me about like why I. You guys have held on to these, marketing services and still offering marketing services and haven't gone the way that so many partners have, which is ditch that and just focus on CRM setup.
[00:14:50] Yeah, like Rev Ops has been everyone's golden ticket.
[00:14:54] Yamini even said it at Inbound last year. She's just do implementation. It's okay, Yamini, but we're not gonna, we're.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] She said that.
[00:15:01] Well, no, she said that a lot of people are, and that's just it's super accurate. A lot of people are becoming WebOps, only, but our longest standing clients, the ones that have been with us for years, the ones Zach's still working with are marketing clients.
[00:15:14] These people are looking to us to form their strategies because everyone today isn't. Understanding that's still a thing. You still need strategy. You're just throwing content at a wall, and that's what we offer. We are, we offer a way through that madness of, at this point, almost an over content, universe to, first of all, see the people you need to see, so that they see you.
[00:15:36] Again, people just think, oh, I'm just gonna put an ad out and that's gonna work just so easily. It's like that's not how ads work and that intimate knowledge is what we offer. You know why like SEO people have forgotten that this is a thing, it's,
[00:15:50] Yeah.
[00:15:50] just create content and throw it out there.
[00:15:52] And I'll let Zach speak to that 'cause he's the SEO king, but you can't ditch that because retention is. The [00:16:00] most important thing in terms of what our, we look at our business as and our retainers, our clients that stick with us know that we can solve their biggest issue and that's getting in front of the people that they need, to see their content.
[00:16:13] Obviously. I'll let Zach speak to the SEO o stuff
[00:16:15] Yeah, it blows my mind that so many companies focus on having a great onboarding experience or implementation experience and then, or they're to complete with the intention that it ends there at the end. Into that. So much of the time that, we'll be doing an onboarding and I'm falling in love with the client during it, whether it be the people in the business or their business itself, and I just love writing content for it.
[00:16:34] And I'm telling, miles are one of my strategists
[00:16:36] I love to hear
[00:16:37] guys in a retainer. I want to keep working for them. So it's really one of those things. And I also, yeah, on the SEL perspective, I can't tell you how many times I've had a client and I go in their back and I run an audit and I'm looking at all this great content that just needs such little optimization.
[00:16:52] To be ranking, but it's not. And all I can think of is, oh my God, they spent so much time writing stuff that nobody is going to read 'cause they [00:17:00] can't because they're not gonna find it. And so I, yeah, it doesn't matter if you have HubSpot or not, if that's what the situation is. So it's, it really blows my mind that a lot of companies don't, I don't wanna say value, but really like treasure that part of the business.
[00:17:14] That's my favorite part. Like what Miles said. I love those long relationships that we get to
[00:17:17] Y. Yeah. I mean they're all hyperfocused on sales 'cause they think that's the only thing that makes money. And they forget that,
[00:17:22] There's an ROI
[00:17:23] latte drinking marketers are actually bringing those opportunities for the sales team to sell. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But so to Zach, talk to me about this.
[00:17:32] So what does it look like from a practical perspective when you guys are actually like building these services. I see content development. I see inbound marketing. Is it like, are the services you're offering saying we will make the content for you? Or is it a mix of we will teach you how to be better marketers using this inbound marketing approach?
[00:17:50] So you guys could go out and do it? Or is it a mix? Is it something in between? What do those engagements typically look like?
[00:17:57] Yeah. So the first thing that I wanna mention to that [00:18:00] I, our website doesn't showcase quite as well too, is we also have an amazingly talented creative team. So we can really cover just about anything when it comes to digital marketing. But the main thing that we've shifted our focus on the content side lately is that we don't want to just give content to any of our clients or even ourselves.
[00:18:15] We deliver content strategies full on strategies around content, right? Because yeah, there's a piece of content is the tiniest little piece of a whole thing. And if you're just throwing out unrelated pieces of content, you might as well not be doing anything at all. I. So we've been really trying to flesh out full on content strategies that start with me.
[00:18:32] Start with, the SEO research that it's built around, but then there's creative already involved in the first steps of the process, talking about what pieces of content do we wanna make outta this. Do we want white papers, videos just images, or maybe even, we've done explainer stuff.
[00:18:47] We've done a lot of really cool stuff. I know miles we worked on for like a. Like a pain management company. Lately we made a video for 'em that was really fun.
[00:18:55] we, well, we also did a casino partner portal. We did a
[00:18:58] Yeah, that as well. We [00:19:00] built a casino partner. So it's really, it starts with the goals and it goes from there. And sometimes the content strategy weirdly won't even involve a block.
[00:19:06] It'll just be rebuilding pillar pages and just what are their goals and how are we gonna best accomplish them within their budget.
[00:19:13] And what's that mix? I guess when people are coming to you, do they want someone who's just gonna create the content for them? Or do they wanna learn how to like, enable themselves to do it better? What are you seeing people ask for? And then I guess, what are you, encouraging people to do between those two options?
[00:19:30] That's a good question. From my experience, and I'm sure Miles is different 'cause he usually meets them at a different point than I do. But I've experienced mostly a mix. They, a lot of them want the content written for them entirely and they barely even read it. I, which blows my mind 'cause I'm like, this goes on your website don't you wanna make sure I know what I'm talking about?
[00:19:47] But there's no, it looks good. I can tell It's great. It's okay. Others wanna be very involved in it. I don't wanna say to an extent that it can be harmful but some like to be very involved. And they like to look at everything and they have their own plan and they just want [00:20:00] another set of eyes on it really.
[00:20:01] So it's really just about working with them to where you can fit in to help accomplish their goals and not really be, not get in the way of anything. And it's also very dependent. I'm sure Miles agree with this. It's very dependent on how many people and what people within the company are working.
[00:20:15] With,
[00:20:15] A lot of cooks in the kitchen can create a
[00:20:18] So in, in some situations, oh, go ahead. Sorry. Mouth go.
[00:20:21] No, everybody's got a different way of how they manage, whether it be a partner or employees. It's, and how they look at us and what we are, some people look at us as their employee almost, not as their partner. And that's okay.
[00:20:33] It's fine. It's really just about, us making sure that we're working with them the way that they expect. We have our own boundaries, of course. As Zach is saying it's everybody. I do see it, I'm on the process a little bit earlier. I'm generally on those sales calls that are, before they've purchased us, before they even purchased HubSpot, and at that point it's all so.
[00:20:53] How much can you do? It's always a question of, you maybe start with the onboarding. Great. We can do the onboarding. Oh, can you guys do [00:21:00] implementation and set up a little bit too? Yeah, we can do that. What about this integration that I've got over here with NetSuite? Can you do that too?
[00:21:06] Yeah, absolutely. We can do that. It's just, it's this constant question of, you can help us with this, you can help us with this too. And so really it comes down to, at that point, just making sure that they're getting what they want and then working with them in their parameters of how they
[00:21:21] setting realistic expectations.
[00:21:23] Yeah. Yeah. So it, it sounds like you guys are it's you're keeping your approach flexible enough where you can deal with the folks. Because again, the way companies approach content is wildly different all the time. But it's always gonna be some sort of mix of hands off, first hands on.
[00:21:37] And wanting to learn versus just wanting it to happen. So it sounds like you're keeping your services flexible enough in a way where it's like, Hey, I. Those folks that want us to create it, we can create it. But for those folks that actually wanna get their hands dirty and learn, we can support it that way.
[00:21:50] And we're not like rigidly putting ourselves into one bucket of this is how we approach that. Because content is nuanced.
[00:21:57] Yeah, I've had 15 clients get onto a call with me just to [00:22:00] learn and then go. Can you guys do this for me? This is a lot.
[00:22:03] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:05] And so at that point it's just yeah.
[00:22:06] Actually, I don't wanna do this.
[00:22:08] Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Were, was it always,
[00:22:12] were you guys always operating this flexible,
[00:22:15] like even when we were, grinding till late at night, in the office, less people were we still taking this sort of flexible approach to see which way the company grew and see what worked?
[00:22:25] Or
[00:22:25] were you trying to do more regimented cookie cutter types of engagements? Like how did that evolve? Or was it always like
[00:22:31] was,
[00:22:32] it was always flexible because HubSpot really gave us that leeway.
[00:22:35] Again,
[00:22:35] HubSpot being what it is and what they were trying to do.
[00:22:38] Even as you're saying we actually joined as a partner in 2015. So
[00:22:43] we've seen HubSpot, grow, and we've just said, okay, well HubSpot's ability is, yeah, it starts with marketing.
[00:22:49] Great. We can do that. That's what we are. Well then they had this,
[00:22:52] the
[00:22:52] CRM come in, well, we can do that too.
[00:22:55] So we brought in people that could learn and figured it out. And the onboarding, came into a bit, [00:23:00] they were offloading it and as you can tell now they're offloading it so much.
[00:23:03] It's insane. But really we've always been flexible to what a client needs. I've got marketing clients that are just strictly marketing that I've never touched their setup. And then I've got, clients that I've done their entire setup and I don't touch their marketing. It's, we are a flexible operation
[00:23:20] because I think we have to be, and I think in today's day and age, being that.
[00:23:25] Flexible allows any client to walk in the door and say, I need this. Can you help?
[00:23:31] The answer to us is always, yes.
[00:23:33] so how are you, like, how are you structuring your team to be able to handle. Flexible, open-ended needs of the customer. Is it like you've got, is it like, you have Yeah. Tell, is it like we have, certain customers assigned to certain people, or are you guys doing pods or is like everyone working together?
[00:23:54] Is it a. Group effort, do you have this regimented way of like how you structure, like who owns [00:24:00] customers and which teams they work with? Or is it more so like you've got like a project manager that can pull resource from these different teams for different projects depending on what they need?
[00:24:08] Like how do you guys structure your teams and how you assign work?
[00:24:12] We're already a flexible operation. Our teams are all flexible. Zach, in the beginning of this call, told you he's a Swiss Army knife and he is a Swiss army knife because of this reason. And I think the most important thing that I've tried to lay out even for my own team is that we are always learning, always.
[00:24:28] Again, I started out as a content writer. I did not know anything about HubSpot when I first started out. In my career I learned HubSpot and my, my, my CEO, my team allowed me, I. To have that time to learn it. And now I'm the onboarding manager because they allowed me to have that space in, an hour of a day.
[00:24:49] Instead of doing some of the content. I was learning HubSpot at the same time I was doing this. I was, I started out as a Swiss Army knife. I'm still one. And so everybody on our team, [00:25:00] basically on, on all teams, from our implementation team, to our strategy team, to our PM team, they all have insight into almost every single customer.
[00:25:08] Because if a customer comes onto my onboarding team and says, guys, I need a little help with this. I've got a strategist that might be able to help you with that. I've got a content SEO writer that might be able to help you with that. Again, even if they're just an onboarding client where they're paying the minimum to basically just learn this system.
[00:25:23] I can bring team members on that can help them in whatever they're trying to
[00:25:27] needed.
[00:25:28] It's all flexible and every single time, every single client has the ability to ask any question and I can bring somebody that has the expertise, the knowledge, to be able to guide them forward. And that also gets part of our retention numbers up because guess what?
[00:25:45] They know perfectly well. I'm not sitting here trying to gouge 'em. I'm not back over that co he, that person cost extra to get him on that call. No, it costs nothing because we wanna make sure you're.
[00:25:54] Yeah. The two hours with the PVC guy blew out our whole budget for the rest of the month. Yeah. And yeah. That doesn't happen. Never a good, fun.[00:26:00]
[00:26:00] So let's take a step back like Van on how did you guys in as individuals fall into the HubSpot ecosystem? Because it's real comfy here. It's real cozy. I mean I haven't even, I've never met you guys, which is interesting and thanks. I'm thankful for our partner program 'cause we get to meet people that are doing and dive deep in the businesses.
[00:26:17] But how did you guys fall into the HubSpot ecosystem?
[00:26:19] I can, I'll start as Zach, you can give your story just a second as well. But I got a little lucky during Covid, actually, it was Covid 'cause I didn't really know what was going on. I had I was a bartender. I was a bartender. I was a struggling writer. And basically covid happened.
[00:26:35] I got furloughed from both my jobs that I had, and I had time on my hands again. Government, as we remember, was saying, don't do anything. Stay at home. And I had a friend that that worked at another agency and he was like, oh, HubSpot's all the rage right now, so again, they had a free thing.
[00:26:53] So our free free platform. So I got on, got the free platform and started taking some of the courses. Got a job at a about [00:27:00] a, this is now early 20 or end of 2020 when, restrictions were getting even placed again, and we didn't have anything to do. I wasn't going back to bartending at that point because there was just really no point for me.
[00:27:12] I had closed that door and got a job at the lowest possible spot in an agency, just writing, small bits of content and, oh, you can help with this and help with this. And the most important thing for me was just learning. And so I got in
[00:27:28] A blog here. A blog there.
[00:27:30] A blog here, a blog there. But I was not hired to be a, I was not very good.
[00:27:36] I'll be honest. I think. I think they were like, can you do anything else? I was like, I can learn HubSpot. I'm good. Just that's, and I saw it. I loved every bit of it. I picked it up relatively quickly. And I just started. Going. I just started, building out stuff and I got better at it was quickly put on the implementation team and thankfully other people took content from [00:28:00] me.
[00:28:00] And it's blossomed from there. It's been wonderful though, Zach.
[00:28:04] Zach, what's your origin story?
[00:28:06] Yeah, I I started with Vison, pretty close to Covid. It was shortly after it. And the reason why I was looking for work really similar to Miles, I did events. I was I was hosting car shows doing a lot of work closely with Eventbrite. I know you're good friends of
[00:28:19] Oh yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna kill them.
[00:28:22] oh, their fees are just the best I would.
[00:28:25] Probably not needed a job. It wasn't for their fees.
[00:28:27] Ugh.
[00:28:28] but yeah, it's so obviously once Covid happened, car shows weren't happening anymore. So I was looking for some actual work and I came over to Vison to pretty much do what I did over here, help do what I did for our clients. What I did for my own company, for our clients.
[00:28:42] So I was brought in here I think to originally be a Swiss Army knife and be able to do a lot of things. But I was brought in as a content person. I was strictly content for probably about a year. So what was funny is I was writing a lot about HubSpot releases new software they were doing.
[00:28:56] I remember content hub I was writing about. Probably like a [00:29:00] hundred blocks about content hub. So by the time I was working in HubSpot and being asked to do it, I felt like I already knew what I was doing. 'cause I had already written about how to use it, so it was really weird. I was like, oh. So there's that thing I've written so much about, but I've never seen.
[00:29:12] But yeah, so, and since then, I've been on HubSpot for about a year and a half now. And miles, I still have to call Miles every now and then I'd be like, help, I don't know what I'm doing on this workflow. But he's a, he literally knows that he can do it literally with his eyes closed and. What I love about HubSpot is whenever Miles explains something to me, it's either one, me being like, okay, cool.
[00:29:27] It is what I thought. I just wanna make sure, or two, how did I not think of that? It's so intuitive. I just should need to really strip it apart.
[00:29:34] Yeah, it's so intuitive. Is sometimes doing a lot of work there with HubSpot.
[00:29:39] well, I'll
[00:29:41] true.
[00:29:41] say I do enjoy the teaching aspect of the onboarding. It is a lot of fun. And that was one of the reasons why I enjoyed that side of the business so much. And so basically my job was learning and teaching and I was like, okay, all I gotta do is come up with a syllabus done.
[00:29:59] There you [00:30:00] go.
[00:30:00] That's why it's super interesting for people in this, neck of the woods in this era,
[00:30:05] that
[00:30:07] when people are looking and trying to find what's their next gig, what's their next path, their next journey,
[00:30:11] I. And the,
[00:30:12] if HubSpot comes your way, you're pretty much
[00:30:14] almost
[00:30:15] at a level set with a lot of people because HubSpot's changing, HubSpot's new
[00:30:19] HubSpot.
[00:30:19] Everything is always being updated.
[00:30:21] There's new ways to do things instead of us having to go back and break stuff and redo it with the newest ways, which we've done with a couple of our apps.
[00:30:29] You can come in at the ground floor and the ground floor is now the neck of the 11th floor.
[00:30:32] And then when you come in a year later, it's just early.
[00:30:35] It's early for people to make this leap.
[00:30:38] In three years for you guys to be. Where you're at and have people waiting to, can I just work with you guys? Can I work with you guys?
[00:30:46] The opportunity is so big and
[00:30:48] we keep seeing this over and over again. The more people we talk to that
[00:30:51] there's so much out there for this ecosystem for people to jump in right now.
[00:30:55] Not to delay, but to learn because the community is small [00:31:00] and caring. We all give hugs. There's so much learning opportunities for free. Like you can get a free HubSpot, build free workflows, and build all this stuff like, and even if you had to jump to Starter, do 20 bucks, you get some stuff and you could event,
[00:31:12] you can make a one man band pretty easily because there's always somebody
[00:31:16] needing, there's someone
[00:31:17] to teach.
[00:31:18] There's another person that needs to. How do you do What is a custom C, CA is a custom coded action. Gee, Willers, what is that? How does this workflow work? What do I send emails? It's, it is a really, it's really interesting. You guys are like really cementing that idea of, Hey, we're still learning.
[00:31:33] Hey, we don't know everything. There's a lot of people that we know we are one book ahead of is like the saying, right? And they need more than this. Rev ops, can you make this pipe? Can you make this one and this zero? Go over here. There's a lot more to that. And Max, I know you love that concept of the marketing piece that's completely absent from literally every conversation that we've ever had is oh, there's an actual, I need humans to see me and see my message so that I can help them.
[00:31:59] [00:32:00] It's my duty to do
[00:32:01] What do you mean? What do you mean? I gotta put gas in the car? Yeah.
[00:32:04] You guys would laugh, but it's like we've never, no one has talked about marketing on this, on, on all the guests. We've had two seasons. No one said anything about sending an email. Really? It's more been
[00:32:14] Why let go.
[00:32:15] unfortunately, sometimes that's the only marketing that people talk about is sending the email and then they quickly realize that's not marketing.
[00:32:21] Just send them our way. Okay. Don't tell them to do that. Just send them our way.
[00:32:24] How many emails can we
[00:32:25] Dinosaurs here. If this is meant to die, we'll stick around. We're good. The OID hasn't hit yet.
[00:32:31] true. Yeah. No, the best part is like literally people doing inbound marketing to say inbound marketing is dead. That's like the funniest part, like peak irony is like when I see a blog post around 10 reasons why inbound marketing is dead, and then go download the ebook on why inbound marketing is dead.
[00:32:47] And it's this is a God level troll right here.
[00:32:49] We're gonna, we're gonna run it through 17 clay tables and do some enrichment and you, it's and then just email you. Yeah. It's I guess so it's just like the people that are like just trying to bring back, like [00:33:00] cold calling and just cold emailing the ~shit~ out of people is for some reason making the most.
[00:33:05] Cringe gasp for air right now. It's just insane. It's so crazy. Yeah.
[00:33:11] it's
[00:33:11] All those
[00:33:11] things are still good.
[00:33:12] there's an extinction burst. No, there's an extinction burst. For the cold calling and cold emailing bros out there, like it's not, it's nuts. It's nuts. It's, they really are trying to stay relevant.
[00:33:23] And then they're saying inbound marketing's
[00:33:25] still, and I think it's still relevant
[00:33:26] about that. Yeah,
[00:33:27] tons of people cold call and it works because people have phones. That's why it works. There's a human on the other end of the phone
[00:33:33] Yeah, it
[00:33:33] and if they pick it up, it.
[00:33:35] that you get a thousand nos per day and annoy the ~shit ~out of people.
[00:33:38] you're one of
[00:33:39] that one Yes. A W. Yeah. It works
[00:33:41] You're one of those people that's answering cold calls. Do us all a favor and stop doing that.
[00:33:44] yeah,
[00:33:45] I'm not answering the phone if I don't know the phone, but I'm just telling you from my
[00:33:48] but Dax, what you just said is why it doesn't work, because if you don't know the number, you're not answering the phone.
[00:33:54] some people love to answer the phone. They might be older than me or something. I know that I come from that background. I'm, [00:34:00] I live in Arizona, the land of the call centers, it's 300 dials a day.
[00:34:04] You want to get, you want to get three demos outta that 300 dials. You're gonna get X amount of answers in the backwards math.
[00:34:11] It. Anyway, I know we're going down this like road of the death to cold calling.
[00:34:14] Here's what I wanna know, especially since you guys are still a HubSpot partner that's helping people fight the good fight around content.
[00:34:21] Okay. We just had ecosystem kickoff, right? And
[00:34:26] right now everybody is in what I like to call the AI panic, right? Where they're just like, oh, we have to figure out how we're gonna be an AI first agency and have AI services and use AI ourself and leverage AI for this, and AI for the.
[00:34:39] And then cold call.
[00:34:41] Yeah.
[00:34:41] How,
[00:34:42] are you guys doing
[00:34:43] to practically deal with the whole AI thing,
[00:34:47] right?
[00:34:47] Are you guys, doing some stuff with it to either help you internally or are you thinking about services that you're gonna sell to people to enable them with ai? Like, how are you guys actually [00:35:00] calmly, dealing with this?
[00:35:01] A blog about AI and how to use it responsibly. So I guess I'll take this one. I think with ai, the main thing to remember is
[00:35:07] it's never a replacement for anything. It can definitely,
[00:35:10] I.
[00:35:10] Increase efficiency
[00:35:12] and really you can probably get what used to take me, six hours could maybe take me four an hour with ai,
[00:35:18] but the over-reliance on AI is a real thing.
[00:35:21] And oh my gosh, like you said, max, the thing that drives me insane, our companies like eBay when I'm like going through, trying to find something, eBay and where the search used to be is an AI client now, and I'm like, why do I need this? What, where in your business does this help me or does this fit
[00:35:36] Description with ai. I know it's.
[00:35:41] And those descriptions are so worthless. Like when I look at one of those items on eBay that has one of those stupid AI descriptions, I'm like, well, I'm not buying this 'cause this guy has no idea what he has. And so it's,
[00:35:51] it doesn't fit into everyone's business
[00:35:53] and it more often than not, doesn't fit into what people want it to do.
[00:35:57] And you have to be creative on where you're gonna use it and [00:36:00] where it's gonna fit in.
[00:36:01] I think
[00:36:02] you're just as silly if you don't use it as much as you are if you over rely on it. need to be using it or you're gonna fall behind the people who are, but if you're the one that's over relying on it, you're gonna expose yourself.
[00:36:14] Everyone's gonna know,
[00:36:15] including Google, 'cause your SEO is gonna go down the
[00:36:17] Well, I've had clients that it's I know perfectly well that every email that this person sends me is coming from an AI bot. Like every email, I'm like, Jesus, dude, did you read what you sent me? I like, I had to highlight something and send it back and said. You do know that you not only answered your question in what you sent me, but then you completely rejected that It was the right answer
[00:36:40] Yeah.
[00:36:42] You have schizophrenia in your emails right now? Yeah, like
[00:36:44] Crazy.
[00:36:45] It's bizarre.
[00:36:46] Yeah, it's,
[00:36:47] I will say, the transcripts those right there, I will say I love those.
[00:36:54] Those Excel formulas as well.
[00:36:56] That was a big deal. The transcripts are big, you know when you can get, 'cause I'm [00:37:00] on 10 calls a day, I'm triple booked on some, again, maybe I don't need to be on it, but being able to send an ai, bot into that call that I don't, that I can't make, but just so I can then see what was talked about and make sure that I can recap it.
[00:37:15] That right there changes the efficiency, not just of myself, but of my team, knowing that they don't now have to get me onto a call later. Because I can recap that call without having to spend an hour listening to the entire thing. I've got bullet points each on, each thing that wa that was talked about.
[00:37:33] I spent the first 15 minutes talking crap of miles and
[00:37:36] Yeah, exactly. They're like, wow, miles couldn't make it. Of course he couldn't. What it, you know what it dick,
[00:37:39] are are you guys using remix at all in Content Hub?
[00:37:44] Yeah we
[00:37:45] that been going?
[00:37:46] video. It's awesome. We made a YouTube video around it. One of our content girls, 'cause we're a little small content team at two right now, and she wrote a blog and she remixed it into a landing page in an email. I. It's all done on the YouTube video. It, I was [00:38:00] blown away.
[00:38:00] We I will say, I was gonna add to what Miles was saying too. If you are using for, or any advice for anyone out there, if you are using AI and you're using Chat GPT you need to be using the paid version, the 4.01. 'cause to me it, the 3.0 or whatever the hell it's called, you might as well not be using ai.
[00:38:15] That's how you really expose yourself 4.0 is how you can give it that information. You can, give it a bunch of different. If I'm writing a something for a client, I can give it all their catalogs and be like, help me write this product page with all this accurate information that, isn't just AI jargon.
[00:38:30] But yeah, it's, I. With things like content remix, it definitely needs some refinement. It's not all the way there but it's really exciting. The idea is unlike that, especially in certain directions, right? Like I can't see an email being fleshed out into a blog effectively. However, I can really see a blog being transitioned to an email very
[00:38:50] Yep. Or even a video being transitioned into one of those things. That's the biggest thing that like I love about it.
[00:38:56] When I teach Content Hub, when I teach remix. [00:39:00] When we were talking about a team of one or two people, on a marketing team, it's a small company, they got content hub. They love that they're sitting there yeah, let me edit it. Great. But I don't have a content creator.
[00:39:11] I don't have the budget to, to hire, a freelancer. So being able to have that all within HubSpot is a big deal for them because they can look at this and go. I don't have to freak out about, images. I can create 10, see what I like. It's already in HubSpot. So I can save 'em, I can reuse them.
[00:39:28] And that's a big deal for me when I can teach somebody to, to be able to really fend for themselves, when needed.
[00:39:35] AI gets you, I always look at it as it gets me 40% of the way there
[00:39:40] When I was doing implementation, it was like 10% teaching people how to use HubSpot, and then 90% being a therapist of, listen, you need to come to the realization, okay, this is an innervation. You need to ~fucking~ make content.
[00:39:52] You to make content. I know that's like a really hard truth for you to
[00:39:56] You have all.
[00:39:57] God damnit, dude, God dammit, you can't just [00:40:00] send a newsletter. Okay. Like you need to make content. And that was 90% of that job. It's just like getting people on board with the reality that you need to actually do work to do this.
[00:40:09] too real. Too real. Right now. You
[00:40:10] It was, yeah,
[00:40:11] it was tough for me It was 'cause it was like,
[00:40:14] then you know, the AI stuff came around and all of a sudden we started seeing blog posts appear outta thin air. And and the curmudgeon in me was like these ~fucking~ people are gonna get away with not creating content.
[00:40:25] That's like they're gonna get away with just being able to, oh, here's the button to press it and here's the, oh good, I got content even though I don't know what it says. I'm just gonna trust it 'cause I'm too lazy not to make any. And like originally that really started to piss me off. But then Content hub came around and then remix came around and I thought that was actually one of the first times.
[00:40:44] That HubSpot actually made a tool that assisted and made content creation easier. Not because you could generate the stuff outta thin air, but because for the first time ever, HubSpot made it [00:41:00] and it made got it to a place where it's listen, you know what, if you're not comfortable creating content in a certain format.
[00:41:08] Now you can create content in the format that you're comfortable in. So it's less of a barrier. And then generate that other stuff from there. So for example, me, I'm not a writer. I, you ain't catching me writing a ~fucking~ blog post. But you'll catch me making videos. I. Now all of a sudden, I can take that video which is the format that I chose, that I know I can express myself through and create content and all of a sudden make my emails, make my social posts, make my blog posts, make all these other formats that other people like to consume.
[00:41:39] Right without having to become really good at creating that content. Because originally, back in the day, it's not that people didn't have good ideas for content, it's that they didn't wanna sit down and write a blog post. 'cause that is hard for a lot of people and it takes a long time. They also didn't wanna get in front of a video.
[00:41:55] Or a camera. 'cause like they're scared to do that too, as well. Well, now it's you [00:42:00] can build and you can create in the format in which you're comfortable. So that's less of a barrier of you actually creating something. But, and then now you can take it and you have this lever to multiply that across all these other different formats, right?
[00:42:14] And so that's what I really liked about Remix is like it felt for the very first time. You were enabling people to still create stuff originally in a way that's easy for them and has a low barrier of entry, but then still creates the content, but it's based on their own original stuff versus just blog easy button.
[00:42:31] So that's,
[00:42:32] I was in the room when they went over that, when HubSpot told all the par partners about, content hub and remix and all that AI that was gonna come in and every single marketing agency went. What are you allowing people to do? What are you?
[00:42:44] Yeah.
[00:42:45] That's our whole gig.
[00:42:48] Yeah. didn't people used to pay us to do this?
[00:42:52] And they can do it now, just, yeah, it was a thing. But actually with what it is, I think Zach hit on it. You hit on it, it gets you a bit of the way there. [00:43:00] I think the people that helped the most, and I said this to Zach, well, you're, you were passionate with the plug off there for a second.
[00:43:05] It helps the small teams, those teams that can't afford, our services, which is a thing, again we're not cheap. We do a great job, but, not everybody can, especially those really small marketing teams, and they're struggling to put out content and. Beat a company that's got, 150, 150 people that can produce this so much easier, and they're struggling.
[00:43:24] Well now with something like a content hub, that 40% might mean that they can, actually make that business a little bit easier on themselves. Get that 40% there and be able to do some edits, be able to tweak a couple things. It allows them to play the game. And I think it's a really cool thing again.
[00:43:41] It doesn't beat what we can do. And of course I would, any marketing agency's gonna tell you the same thing. And it's true because again, you don't, you can't beat what Zach can do with the SEO and just all this stuff. It's seriously just helping these small companies be able to have a, a fighting chance.
[00:43:55] And I think that is a valuable part.
[00:43:57] Really promotes content versatility [00:44:00] as well I, or really versatility within the company. I know they're like starting to sound like a HubSpot commercial, but another thing I love about Content Hub
[00:44:06] a commercial.
[00:44:07] Yeah. Is anyway
[00:44:08] They did a good job on.
[00:44:11] Yeah. But brand voice I think that as well.
[00:44:14] We've even used it to where, sometimes someone will wanna write something forna on or for a client, and then they'll give it to me to copy edit. And I'm looking at 'em like, yeah, it's, this is well written, but this is not the voice of this company. This is not what they sound like. This is not consistent with, what they normally come out with.
[00:44:30] So having brand voice, if you set it up the right way. There is so nice. 'cause it really does open it up to if someone doesn't enjoy writing or they're not gonna, they don't have that talent to write and adjust their tone, to a different client. They don't have to, they can just write to what's comfortable with them, pop it in the brand voice, and then it comes out in that client's or your own tone.
[00:44:50] And that one I've been pretty impressed by as well. So I think it's really just, it promotes versatility and yeah, for small teams. Anyone on that team, like Max, you could be technically a copywriter [00:45:00] 'cause you're making videos that then become blogs. So it's nice in that way and it pretty, it is pretty mind blowing.
[00:45:05] It's really just about any other like AI tool. To me, it's not about what it does, it's about how you use it. And if you're using it the right way, that's where you get the advantages.
[00:45:13] A hundred percent.
[00:45:15] So guys this has been an awesome convo. We always like to end it with three little random questions. Now we got two people to answer. This is gonna be fun. Miles, you're gonna start. First question is, what's your favorite color?
[00:45:25] Green.
[00:45:27] What kind of green stop with this
[00:45:28] Celtic screen. I'm hoping.
[00:45:29] so
[00:45:31] Me too. I'm
[00:45:32] because I can't, because I can't see it very well. So when I do, I'm like, that's green. So I got really ex, I get excited.
[00:45:40] I'm that way about orange and red too. I can't see orange, red, and green. I get so
[00:45:43] It's so cool. I'm like, oh my God, I can actually see the color of the tree.
[00:45:48] Or do you ask your friends like, is that green? They go, yeah, Zach, it's green. It's okay. Yes.
[00:45:54] That was the worst question I could have ever asked, or the best. We both can't see [00:46:00] colors. Thanks for
[00:46:00] the best. Or the best?
[00:46:03] Happened all the time.
[00:46:04] Sec. Second question. Favorite. I'm gonna say, what is your favorite animal
[00:46:09] Oh,
[00:46:11] Obsessed with dogs. They're everything.
[00:46:13] I am allergic to all animals.
[00:46:14] Oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:46:16] Mine's gotta be a monkey. It's gotta be, or a lyx monkeys
[00:46:20] those are, those exist.
[00:46:22] I think that it's absolutely amazing with the intelligence of just monkeys, gorillas in general. Again, it's I love that. But more importantly, they're just so much fun, they're just like having a good time all the time, whether they're angry at you and flinging their feces, or they're just there, just, jump through branches having a good, I spent a lot of time in Costa Rica last year and just these monkeys are just having a great day all the time. They're just eating, hanging out,
[00:46:47] Eden kicking, literally hanging out.
[00:46:49] yeah, literally it was a good time. Yeah.
[00:46:51] Alright, and now I wanna say my, what is your favorite animated cartoon [00:47:00] TV series? Cartoon. Not like a movie, we're just talking TV series cartoon.
[00:47:03] Miles, you go first.
[00:47:05] that's a hard question 'cause I can go back to like my feels and back when I was a kid. Like I grew up with like Rugrats and, Hey Arnold. So animated wise, I probably go to something like Rugrats because it's, it just hits my fields. But with the immensity of what's come out recently, it's arcane. It's an animated show that is absolutely mind blowing and I love every freaking second of it.
[00:47:31] What? Alright, bye Zach.
[00:47:34] Oh God, I'm gonna disappoint you guys. Well, I grew up on SpongeBob. It's the best beyond that. It's so good.
[00:47:40] That's good. That's good.
[00:47:41] I'm a huge family guy fan to this day. I'm not a big Enemy fan. I'm a big film fan, but I've never gotten into animated film very much. While all the ones I've watched I've enjoyed.
[00:47:54] And same with TV shows. I just haven't found that right. One that's, really pulled me in.
[00:47:59] Watch
[00:47:59] But yeah,[00:48:00]
[00:48:00] SpongeBob works baby.
[00:48:01] seasons one through three are masterpieces.
[00:48:04] He's yo, you gotta hit the, you gotta hit the
[00:48:06] Pass there. It's just pure crap
[00:48:08] Well, I'll say
[00:48:10] almost 20 years now.
[00:48:11] it's because of SpongeBob that I hold my pinky up when I will take a
[00:48:15] Yep. And that's season one through
[00:48:16] SpongeBob,
[00:48:17] There you go.
[00:48:18] Yep.
[00:48:19] Yeah,
[00:48:19] Every funny SpongeBob inside joke comes from that run of episodes. Every single
[00:48:23] awesome.
[00:48:24] Nice.
[00:48:25] it's the best thing.
[00:48:25] dope. Well guys, I appreciate you jumping on Vonazon.com elite partner. We got miles, we got Zach. I appreciate y'all for coming up.
[00:48:33] Thank you guys for having us so.
[00:48:35] Thank
[00:48:35] Appreciate y'all.
[00:48:36] peace.