Shift & Thrive: CEO Insights on Driving Change

What can entrepreneurs learn from bootstrapping a startup, leading with empathy, and embracing the mindset of “Why not?” even when the odds are slim? In this episode, Natalie Nathanson sits down with serial entrepreneur Sanjay Manandhar, whose journey from Nepal to Massachusetts is filled with resilience, creativity, and servant leadership. Sanjay shares how bootstrapping shaped his approach to business, why every founder should learn sales, and how embracing the philosophy of “Why Not” can unlock opportunities that seem out of reach. From running Nepal’s first ISPs to founding AI-driven cybersecurity startup Zifino, his story is a masterclass in perseverance, empathy, and innovation.

Takeaways:
  • Bootstrapping builds discipline. Running lean forces founders to focus on cost control, deliberate hiring, and creative solutions for sustaining both business and personal life.
  • Founders must learn to sell. Sanjay’s success started with direct outreach, proving that understanding your customers firsthand is a non-negotiable skill.
  • Channel partners create scale. Moving from direct sales to partner-first strategies can expand reach, leverage existing networks, and accelerate growth.
  • Servant leadership pays dividends. Prioritizing employee well-being through fair compensation, full health coverage, and stock options builds loyalty and innovation.
  • AI should be embraced, not feared. Leaders who support retraining and reallocation of talent can help teams thrive in times of disruption.
  • Adopt a ‘Why Not’ mindset. Pursuing low-probability opportunities often leads to surprising success; commitment greatly increases your odds.
  • Balance sustains entrepreneurship. Building relationships, prioritizing health, and making time for passions outside of work prevent burnout and keep leaders grounded.

Quote of the Show:
  • “Always take care of your people—not only for the loyalty, but for the motivation and innovation that comes from a relaxed and appreciative workforce. It enables you to come up with all sorts of new products and ideas”.

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This show is sponsored by Magnetude Consulting, bringing you the thinking-Power of a Growth Consultancy and the Getting-It-Done Power of a full-service B2B Marketing Agency. 
Learn more at: https://www.magnetudeconsulting.com

Creators and Guests

Host
Natalie Nathanson
Producer
Rebecca Leberman
Guest
Sanjay Manandhar

What is Shift & Thrive: CEO Insights on Driving Change?

In today’s business world change is the only constant, and mastering transformation is the ultimate key to success. Welcome to Shift & Thrive!

Each week, Host Natalie Nathanson will bring you conversations with CEOs, who delve into how they successfully drove critical change in their organization.

This show is sponsored by Magnetude Consulting, bringing you the thinking power of a Growth Consultancy and the Getting-It-Done Power of a full-service B2B Marketing Agency.

Natalie: Today's guest is a trailblazing serial entrepreneur with a unique story and a track record and mindset of building what others didn't believe was possible. He's a. Originally from Nepal and now lives in Massachusetts and started his career by creating Nepal's first two internet service providers back in 1994 with graduate degrees from both MIT and insead.

His career has spanned it, ai, computer vision, FinTech, and cybersecurity, and has included time at Siemens and Brigham and Women's Hospital.

Natalie Nathanson: He founded and sold his first company, uh, SaaS platform, iva, and later founded the facial biometrics company, wicked.

Today, he's the founder of zino and AI driven cybersecurity startup that's on a mission to make vulnerability management radically simpler. Sanjay Mundar, welcome to the show.

Sanjay Manandhar: Thank

you Natalie.

Great to be here.

Natalie Nathanson: It's great

to connect with you

And

you know, I know you've started and led several ventures over the years, uh, but when you think back, uh, I find there's often like one pivotal decision that defines how a company is built. Can you share maybe an early decision that you made in building one of your past companies and like how that turned out to be especially pivotal for you?

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah. So, uh, let me talk about, uh, building era. Uh,

the idea

came about in the mid nineties when I was in London. Uh, but uh, you know, by the time I decided I'm going to actually, uh, build this company, I was back, uh, in, in the US and it was after nine 11, which basically translated to, there was no point in even trying to do fundraising.

So the pivotal moment was. Having a, uh, chat with my wife. Uh, at the time we were, uh, you know, I was about, uh, 35 and I said, uh, would it be all right if we bootstrap this idea I have, uh, and what that means is we're gonna have

to dip

into our savings account. Her response was, uh, a little bit surprising. I thought.

she'd said, well, hell no, but instead she said, if not now, when. So I thought, oh my gosh, I better do this. So we decided, uh, I'm gonna bootstrap this company. And all the distance following that, uh, came from that decision. And, uh, long story short, I ended up, uh, started the company running it for about 10 years and we sold it bootstrapped,

Natalie Nathanson: Uh, it's very interesting. It sounds like a, a great, uh, supporter that you have in your wife. Uh, I'd love to go deeper into that, you know, once you made that decision to bootstrap. What were some of the biggest downstream implications? Uh, kinda how did that impact your, your business and kind of the decisions you were making?

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah, so, uh, the biggest, uh, impact was, uh, cost control.

What that meant was that everything from, uh, getting a sublease, which

was literally

one room to hiring,

uh,

pace. Of course, I, I wanted all sorts of, uh, talents in this, uh, new company, but I felt, uh, you know, I need to hire at a pace that, uh, made sense for, uh, the funding, uh, I, I had

in place.

So, uh, we effectively hired one person per year, but the first person I hired was, uh.

the CTO and the main technology person. Um, and, uh, he stayed with me all 10 years and so that was extremely. Important, but also I think extremely lucky in, uh, having David grow as my employee, number one. And, uh, the CTO. What also I had to do was, uh, remember, uh, I also had, uh, two young, uh, kids. One was just born at the same time as I was, uh, starting up, uh, era.

And.

You

know, IBO was not in a position

to pay,

uh, me, uh, for sure salary, but also wasn't in a position to, uh, provide health insurance. And so as a result I thought, okay, I think I need at least insurance for my, uh, growing family. So I went out and, uh, got a job for myself at Brigham Women's Hospital, where again, uh.

Perhaps, uh, dumb luck or, uh, or, uh, good amount of research. I met up with, uh, a principal investigator in a, uh, medical imaging, uh, lab

at Brigham

Women's Hospital, who was, you know, uh, he had about $40 million over five years, uh, of NIH money. But he is a researcher. Yet everything that he did, uh, you know,

needed

his signature.

So he had about 12 or 15 subcontractors. Some of them were also large entities like MIT, uh, UCSF and all that. And so. I took all of that program management type of, uh, function, uh, office plate. And, uh, but also one important thing I did was I said, uh, Ron, would it be okay if

I stayed,

uh, you know, if I was available to you, uh, by email and phone?

But I only came in for important meetings to, uh, Longwood, where Brigham is.

He

thought, uh, for a moment said, that's different than what we've done thus far, but let's give it a shot.

And that

made all the difference. What that meant is that I could be running Arva, but

I could

also be, uh, doing a lot of Brigham work, but also be available to Ron 24 by seven.

And that worked brilliantly. So effectively, I had health insurance and a bit of salary for. 11 years that I was there and I was building arva at the same time. So those are two important decision I made, uh, after saying, okay, I wanna bootstrap this company.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, I love those examples and I think, you know, my, my business has been bootstrapped from the beginning. I do think it's more common in general for services firms, but I think it like really forces you to be very like prudent, thoughtful, and conscientious about your investments. And like for us, not just impacting our own budgeting, but like how we approach clients budgets because they're often in a similar situation, not necessarily bootstrap, but always very.

Cost conscious. And I think the misconception sometimes is, uh, that you don't spend, or that you're kinda cheap on things. Um, where I think for, for me, it always means like, it's not, don't spend. It's, uh, you know, spend wisely. Don't throw money at a problem, like analyze the problem, look at the different ways to solve it, and then spend money like where you need to.

Sanjay Manandhar: Absolutely.

Absolutely. And, and, and look, you know, uh, the, the other dis also that comes very quickly, uh, you know, Uh, Want to make that decision is how are we gonna get revenue in a service business? Uh, you know, you are looking at revenue from day one in a product business. You need the product first. So there's a huge, uh, you know, deep hole you go into.

But at the same time, it was my responsibility to bring sales in. So I was the main and only salesperson from the very beginning. And I, I did things that were slightly uncomfortable for myself. But I'll tell you, that

was great

learning. And, uh, you become more and more familiar and comfortable selling.

And I want, I needed to sell. From the very beginning. So, uh, within eight months, uh, after, uh, the company was formed, I got my first customer. So that's important.

Natalie Nathanson: I think that's such an important point about like, you have to do things that you're uncomfortable doing, and then they become comfortable and like every founder needs to know how to sell, whether they like it or not. And so either you come in with that knowledge or you, you learn it on the job and, uh, no one can sell better than a founder in the early days.

Right.

Sanjay Manandhar: Absolutely. Yeah.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, I'm curious, you were just talking about, you know, acquiring the first customer. Uh, curious to hear a bit about the go to market and how kind of that funding decision impacted how you thought about your go to market, um, either kind of at, at that time or how that's impacted you since then.

Sanjay Manandhar: Great question. Uh. So, uh, again, subsequently, uh, in future companies, I've made, uh, distance differently.

But at Arava, because I couldn't afford very, uh, expensive salespeople, I ended up, uh, selling myself, but also expensive salespeople meant, or any salespeople meant selling direct, and I wasn't fully clear on direct versus channel, and. I, I must say, you know, the very first customer was, uh, a public school in Maine.

And, uh, basically I told someone that I knew, uh, who was a tech director there. This is what we're doing. What do you think? And so in, in a nutshell, the offering was, it was, uh, the browsers were becoming more prevalent, and my idea was. If you have a digital screen, why couldn't you use a browser to manage content on that screen remotely?

So we

need to represent, uh, you know, uh, what the, uh, layout would look like. And we've, uh, allowed sub windows. You could upload your own content. Content, could be text image videos, uh, RSS, uh, tickers and so forth. And you put a schedule together and you publish. And then. You know, it publishes, uh, on this, uh, internet connected, uh, screen that you may own.

This school basically used to, as most schools did, uh, a whiteboard in the, in the foyer of all the announcements of the day and so on and so forth.

So,

uh, my friend, uh, the tech director said,

Hmm,

you are saying I could have a dynamically changing content and I don't even need to go to the school. I could be doing this remotely.

I said, absolutely.

Okay,

Let's give it a shot. So again, we did not sell the hardware or nor did we do their content. So our software allowed you to do

the content.

And, uh, so, uh, he was my first customer. I remember, uh, it was about $1,600 and I framed that check. In those days, we still used physical checks, and very soon after that, uh, to your GTM question, someone approached me and said, we are a sales rep.

You

don't need

to pay us until we close something for you. And I forget, uh, what, uh, a discount was, but I think I, I like to say to some either 15% or 20%, but I said, sure, and here's the demo and this is how you do the demo. And my second customer was Fountain Square in Cleveland, Ohio. Sorry, Cincinnati, Ohio and Thumb Square was being revamped and on one side of the square they put up a huge Mitsubishi, LED screen, uh, people called it the Jumbotron as well.

And Mitsubishi came up with its own software. So it was just the way you do things, you buy the screen and the, and also we'll get the software. And the software is the SaaS and all, but the, uh, but the rep went to the,

uh.

The owner and said, you know, you can, uh, use a screen and a different software, and our software allowed drag and drop, which again, in 2005, uh, many software could not do.

The

owner immediately said, this is different. We're going to use this one.

Mitsubishi

screen and Arva software. And that came through a rep. And I'll tell you, that was in the first year. And here we're driving a humongous screen in the middle of, uh, uh, uh, of, uh, fountain Square in Cincinnati. And that was the boost.

We realized we had something, there was product market fit, and then it was time to go.

Natalie Nathanson: That is very cool. I love that story. Um, and then can you fast forward us to today, you know, how, how are you managing your, your go to market currently and, uh, you know, talk a little bit about how you think about that.

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah, so one of the, uh,

uh,

downsides of doing everything direct is that it, it's all up to your network and how many hours you can put in, how much travel you can do, and so on and so forth. So, um. Although, uh, Erba was, the very, very, uh, cash generative, high gross margin and all, uh, I had always wished that the top line would grow faster.

So

over the years I learned that, oh, if I have channel partners, I could

actually trade margins

for distribution. Because remember, our gross margin was high nineties, so we had the margin to give them. Maybe if they asked for 30%, we could do that. 50% would do that and still do. Okay, so. Uh, in subsequent, uh, uh.

Uh, companies including Zaino, we're going,

in fact, ENO

is almost the other extreme. We're doing channel only. Of course, we do talk to end customers for demand generation, so forth. But in Zaino, we are actually, uh, talking to, uh, VARs, value added resellers, VADs, value added distributors, but also, uh, consultants because, we, uh, by, interacting with, uh, partnering with, uh, consultants.

They get to, uh, have a lot more pipeline with the same number of, uh, consultants because, uh, you know, all the scut work that, uh, the analysts might do, our, uh, platform will do it for them. So in a way, they have the relationships and they could actually do a lot more engagements. By using our software. So, uh, that has worked out very well because now we're talking to many more end customers by way of the

channel. So I

really am a big proponent of that. And

of course,

you learn from all the, uh, experiences you have and you try to pivot and make changes along the way, which is what I'm doing now.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think, you know, you, you said it, but like channel, it brings you the, the distribution and the access to customers and, and of the, the sales force. I think, you know, it's already very prevalent and has. Been. Um, but I think we're gonna see more and more of that as there's new companies emerging and you know, a lot of markets are very, uh, you know, crowded and, and competitive.

And so like building the, the channel and the distribution models I think is so critical and. Um, as long as companies are doing it right the way that you are, right, you're clear on your, your, uh, ideal client profile. You find the partners that kind of genuinely have that right fit. You have the right compensation model and incentives between the two organizations, making sure you're still getting enough kind of feedback loops and all of that, uh, from your, from your channel.

Um, but it can really, you know, help drive exponential growth compared to.

Uh, kind of building more slowly and needing to hire more kind of sales capacity each time.

Sanjay Manandhar: I mean,

you know, if it didn't ever, we were, uh, we ended up, uh, in the 10 years having about 10,000 licenses.

Uh, but we were in six countries and of course, countries like Australia and New Zealand, we can't even support them because of time zone issues and all that. So, uh, I guess, uh. Unknowingly, I ended up, uh, hiring a, uh, uh, media company that would do what I call L one L two support level one and level two support, right?

So if

a customer

had a problem, they'd call them first. And for a media company that was doing print and, uh, and so forth, uh, you know, having digital out, this is also called digital out of home media.

It was a big, uh, you know, incremental revenue for them, but. That relationship worked great. So if you ever went to, uh, you know, uh, flew into any of the airports in Australia or New Zealand, uh, outdoor, indoor, uh, baggage claim, passport control, any screen you see is still driven by Arva and so I understood that.

For you to have the reach and the distribution you needed other partners. It's just that I didn't know how to go about it in a very systematic way. But, uh,

yes, for

Australia, New Zealand, we had a partner. We had a partner for Canada and one for, uh, Mexico. So

three partners,

but now we're doing it a lot more systematically and saying, you know,

the.

Consultancies

like pwc, KPMG, ey, they, uh, already have relationships and they're go, they always consider the ones that will get, uh, compliance and governance

done.

Let's, uh, you know, uh, make sure that it works for them and for us. And that's why we're channel first now.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Yep. I wanna switch gears, uh, a little, and you talked about some of the, an evolution of your thinking as far as company strategy. Uh, wanted to talk about your leadership style. Can you talk about, you know, how do you describe your leadership style and have you, uh, felt it or, uh, deliberately evolved it, uh, over the years?

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah. So, um, I think people know about, uh, servant leader.

I would consider myself more servant leader. And, uh, again, uh, uh, you know, bootstrap company like Arava, you know, I was the last person to be paid, right? So, uh, until the company was able to be paid, I did not take a salary. It was for five years. I didn't take a salary. And, uh, however, to my, uh, uh, employees, I made sure that they never.

Even had an inkling, uh, that uh, their paycheck may not clear, right? So sometimes I had to do all sorts of. Uh, backflips behind the scenes to make sure we made payroll. I think making payroll is one of those, uh, you know, rites of passage of any entrepreneur and, uh, not to, uh, you know, uh, make it an issue is very, very important.

And so behind the scenes sometimes, especially if a customer said,

Hey, I'm

going to wire that money, but, uh, that payment doesn't come, you end up doing some back flips and so. I always felt, you know, just because, uh, their cashflow issues, I cannot pass it on to my employees because they have, uh, many, uh, costs themselves, you know, mortgages and all that.

So I did not want

to do

that. So that's why, uh, there was that, uh, the financial stress, the other part,

and it was

very, very, uh, important for me that in this country, you are, uh.

Uh,

healthcare is tied to your employment. And remember I said I had to go get, uh, a separate job at Brigham just for healthcare reasons.

So at

Arba, all the employees, I said, the company

will pay

all the health, health insurance premium. And sometimes they'd be surprised, like, what is my contribution? I know the company will pays something. You pay nothing. And that came as a huge surprise. So I call that, you know, so relieve them of financial stress, relieve them of healthcare stress, and then of course, give everyone, uh, you know, uh, sense of ownership by giving them very, very, uh, you know, um, favorable, uh, stock options.

Remember, we did not have an outside capital partner, so I was able to give, uh, board members, advisors, and employees, uh, a, a a lot of, uh, participation in the company. So. These were some of the, uh, sort of foundational, uh, aspects, uh, of what, how we, how I took care of

the people.

Uh, and also the other philosophy I have is you always want to take care of your people because the, uh, the.

Not only the loyalty, but the motivation and the, and the innovation that comes from a very, very relaxed and appreciative, uh, uh, workforce means that, you know, you come up with all sorts of new products, new ideas, whereas, you know, if you are very hard on your, uh, team, uh, it, it, it appears too transactional.

They're there because you're paying them. We don't want that to happen, especially in a startup, you know, where, you know, every day is, uh, you know, might be,

you might

be in survival mode. You can't have

your team

in that mode. It's not a transactional, uh, situation. So I think very deeply about how you treat people, and I think that sort of leads into my leadership style.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. I think as you're talking about that last part, it's making me think of, um, like a lot of the bigger companies, more recently like CEOs have come out with their AI.

Um, and it, while it's good to kind of showcase and be transparent about your AI strategy and all of that, um, I have noticed some of them don't feel particularly respectful or appreciative of the employees.

And I could see an environment where people are, right, people are worried about their, their job, their livelihood. Um, what does that do for, like you say that that comfort level where you can innovate from and take risks and, um. I think that'll be an interesting thing to see. Uh, I think smaller companies, uh, employees tend to have a much more, uh, kind of personal close relationship, uh, with the CEO and founder and, uh, maybe more, more trust there that hopefully can help drive innovation.

Sanjay Manandhar: Uh, absolutely.

And, and look, I mean,

uh,

AI is gonna happen, uh, is happening. And, uh, you know, uh, I was speaking at, uh, an AI conference once and my, uh, views were quite, uh, different, I think from majority of

the speakers

and panelists views. My view is that this is not, uh, a big, uh, you know, uh.

uh,

Shift in business landscape.

We've had many shifts like this. You know, a big sh a big jump sometimes,

and

somehow we managed. So I think here also we'll manage there'll, there'll be some dis dislocations, uh, you know, not just in, uh, uh, workforce, but in many other aspects. But I think as leaders,

it behooves

us to actually make sure our people are taken care of.

Trained to do something different. Oh, by the way, even our own people don't like to do scut work, right? So let AI do

all the

scut work. So I think, uh,

you know, your people actually appreciate that.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, completely agree. Uh, I wanted to take us on a little bit of a detour because we actually by chance ran into each other at a book launch event last night of a mutual friend that we didn't realize was a mutual friend until we ran into each other. Uh. And so I learned that you're writing a book yourself, and I was very interested in the topic and I think it kind of dovetails with some, some of the themes that we're talking about.

So I wanted to ask if you could, you know, talk about what inspired you to write the book and then what are some of those core ideas, uh, that, uh, that you want, uh, readers to take away?

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah. Uh, the book is

about, uh, you know,

uh, giving the readers the permission to ask Why not? So, um,

I found

in my life, but also, uh, people that I've observed, the people that. You know, go for it. Because they're passionate, uh, about something, uh, don't always win, but when they win, they win big. And in my own life, um, as you mentioned originally from Nepal, uh, and, uh, I was, uh, 16, 17, and I decided, you know.

For the next journey. Uh, I went to a, to San Xavier's Jesuit school in Nepal.

It was

good, a great education.

And then

after that it was not so great. So I thought, no, I don't wanna, I want more great education. I thought, Hmm. Some of my teachers came from the United States. Uh, you know, maybe I'll apply there and go there.

And my friend said, are you nuts? Who's gonna give you a full scholarship to the US And you're 17, you know, you're in fact applying for, uh, last years of high school and so forth. And I said, I know it's kind of nuts, uh, but uh, the probability of success is very, very low, but it's non-zero.

And

if I do nothing about it, it is going to be zero.

if I do something about it, you know, maybe it'll work out. So, uh, long story short, I got full scholarship to go to UWC in New Mexico.

Uh,

there were, you know, it was a new school and it, uh, they did International Baccalaureate last two years of high school. From there, they said, Hey, uh, you are applied to MIT because your math,

chemistry,

physics, uh, grades are quite good.

And I said, what's MIT said? Just apply. See if you get in. I said, uh. I'm

a poor

kid from Nepal. Say, don't worry, they'll cover the delta. And I

say, my delta's

gonna be a hundred percent. It was. And, uh, MIT paid for, uh, full fight. So, uh, you know, with that, uh, uh, kind of example, and I've seen this with, uh, other entrepreneurs, uh, athletes, uh, you know, all sorts of, uh, you know, ordinary people doing extraordinary things.

And, uh, that's why the title of the book is The Power of Why Not Harnessing the Gift of Small Probabilities.

So

when someone, uh, you know, says, oh, the problem to have success for that is X percent say 20%. It's a generalized notion, right? It's, uh, you know, it's like saying, you know, they're, you know, 50 kids in a, in a classroom, the average height is, uh,

five foot.

I think nobody's five foot.

They're

either shorter than a five or uh, uh, taller than five. Five is an average height. So similarly, you know, whenever there is a generalized notion, it means just generalized. But you are an individual. If you have the drive, the passion, my view is go for it. I mean, be, you know, it, it is possible that, uh, not, not everything you try is going to work out, but you need to keep taking shots on goal.

That's my view.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, I like that. And I think like many, uh, of us founders have been asked like, the, are you nuts? Question. And I, one of the, uh, kind of quotes or mantras I always, uh, like is if it were easy, everyone would do it. And I've said that about business stuff. I've said that about different like goals like running a marathon or things like that.

And I find. That in and of itself drives that intrinsic motivation. Um, and I'm finding myself now, like even with my kids, trying to encourage that, that discipline and like your example with schooling and, uh, like from Nepal to come to the, to to study. Um, you know, if you don't ask, the answer will always be no.

So you have

to have that conviction, pursue it, and, and see where that takes you.

Sanjay Manandhar: Actually, you

brought up, uh, marathons. I have, uh, again, uh, some, uh, you know, numbers for you. uh.

uh, do

you know what percentage of people in the world attempt to run a marathon?

Natalie Nathanson: I do.

not It's 1/10th of 1%, and of course it's natural because it's, you know, it's a, long race, right?

Sanjay Manandhar: It's, 26.2 miles.

so people don't even think about it 1/10th of 1%. Think about it. However, by the time someone steps on the starting line, what percentage finish a marathon?

I mean, just

the way I'm, asking

the question, you know, it's a very large number.

The

number is between 85 and 90%. Wow So

what that tells me is once someone is driven to do something like crazy thing like running a marathon.

You do end up most likely finishing and you know, in my own, uh, you know, someone, uh, gave me a dare

uh,

at my birthday when I was like 25 or 26.

and.

Not thinking clearly. I said, fine, I'll do it.

And

uh, this person also gave me, uh, you know, this is free internet, so, uh, gave me a runner's, uh, journal and I actually looked at it and said, okay, uh, there's a marathon, uh, in, uh, I was here in Cambridge and, uh, there's a, there was a marathon in, uh, uh, Burlington, Vermont, three months out.

And I said, Hmm, uh, or a little less than three months. But I said, I think I can do this. I'll use this journal to do it.

And.

Lo and behold, I mean, although I had many problems, uh, during the race, uh, by the time I finished it was three, uh, three hours, nine minutes, 30 seconds, which means I qualified for Boston, which,

and the

cutoff for Boston was three 10.

And I said, oh my gosh, how did I even do that? How, how was it even possible? But again, whether with a dare or whatever, once you decide you're gonna do

something.

The likelihood of, uh, success is very, very high. And this is true with, again, as I said, marathoners, 85 to 90% actually

finish.

Natalie Nathanson: I love that. It definitely resonates and I think like at the, at the start of a, of a race like that, you say, why did I do this to myself? Am I up so early? You know, why am I putting myself through this? And then at the end, when you're the most exhausted, you say, okay, when's the next one? And I do think there's a very similar parallel to, uh, to entrepreneurship.

Uh, just as you said,

Natalie Nathanson: I'm curious to ask you, you know, how do you stay grounded in your conviction when the why not path gets hard? Like what kinds of things keep you from kind of moving to the safe decisions? Do you have any things that have helped you over the years?

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah, so, uh, uh, great question and, uh.

I think, uh, people matter the most, and I've alluded to this in multiple ways. Uh, your family, your support group, your friends, and uh, we all went through a very, very challenging time called the pandemic. And if you remember, it was not even possible to meet people during the pandemic. You avoided people, you didn't wanna touch them.

No handshakes, no nothing, all that. But even during the pandemic, um. When it was possible to meet people outdoors, uh, for coffee or beers or whatever, I made it a point to meet someone different every week.

Outdoors,

right? And, uh, whether it was for coffee beers or

just

sitting at a bench, because I think that is important, uh, to not only stay grounded, but also to, I mean, at the end of the day, we are very, very social animals.

So that is very important. And so, uh, yes, uh, you know, there's intensity whenever you do one of these, why not things, but also you come back to. Uh, uh, you

know, people

that, uh, you appreciate, you admire, you love, and you want to keep that connection. And so that's why I feel entrepreneurship is actually a very, very lonely road.

Uh,

uh, but you do need to keep talking to your loved ones, your friends, uh, your colleagues, and, uh, I think it can be managed and,

you know,

um, I see, uh, you're also bringing together like-minded leaders, CEOs and all, and I think especially, uh, you know, having that kind of, uh.

Cohort

to share, uh, information, knowledge, especially when there's no vested interest.

These aren't your board members, these aren't your customers, your, uh, employees. These are just other leaders who are sharing tough, uh, you know, uh, distant points in their lives and

their businesses.

Uh, it, it's very important and, and I think that's the way to stay grounded in my opinion.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. And obviously, uh. To a similar notion. I think it's very energizing, right? That's where new ideas come from, the camaraderie. Um, so, uh, definitely, uh, can echo that as well. Uh, Sanjay, I'd love to, uh, maybe hear a little bit more about you. You've kind of touched a little bit on your background, but can you talk a little bit about your childhood and, you know, did you know you'd gonna be moving into kind of tech and entrepreneurship?

Like what were some of those, uh, early signals for you?

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah, my, uh, parents, uh, are both academics, but dad is an ethnobotanist how people use plants. And his domain was all the plants in a very, very, uh, rich and compact, uh, ecosystem called, uh, Nepalese Himalayas. And he knew

All,

all his plans. And, uh, he ended up getting, uh, his master, uh, undergrad, uh, n Nepal, master's in India and PhD in France.

Um. And, uh, mom, she was, uh, uh, a professor in a women's college. Uh, having said that, both of them were effectively government employees, which also meant that we were not terribly wealthy. Uh, and that's another reason why when I was applying to, uh, schools in the US I needed

a hundred

percent scholarship.

And I didn't even know if that would be possible. But, uh, it all worked out as, uh, as we learned. But, um, you know, um. I I was always.

Uh,

interested and excited about, uh, math and science. And I,

there was a

certain elegance to math that I really appreciated. I really liked, but also, uh, I liked English and, uh, there's, uh, you know, spelling bee contest and all that.

And, and, uh, father, uh, Donnelley, our English teacher. And basketball coach and spelling bee coach, uh, is in the book. Uh, and, uh, I remember some of, uh, his quotes and one in particular is, uh, yeah, we, you, know, he six foot two, uh, guy, right? Uh, priest, uh, in white, uh, garment. And, uh, here we are a little, uh, diminutive, uh, Nepalese boys.

Uh, and, uh, the basketball court, he would, uh, scream at

the top

of his voice and say. You can't score if you don't shoot. He said that multiple times. So I mean, there's also this why not, uh, angle that comes into that. So, uh, but that the, uh, the, uh, Jesuit education at San Xavier is very, very formative. And that's why I think I.

Uh, you know, that foundation was important. I really appreciated, and it, it, it made me who I am. Uh, but also, um,

you know,

one of the things that I'm going back to are things that I was excited about

when I was, uh,

young riding is one and another. Uh, one was I had my own, uh, red motorcycle, 110 cc. And, uh, uh, here's another one, which is like a why not thing.

Uh, when I was working at Siemens, uh, another, uh, older colleague said, and we're just talking about motorcycling, and he said, you know, we work for a German company. Let's fly to Munich. Buy A BMW, uh, motorbike and. Take the hippie trail, uh, through the, you know, middle East and, uh, Iraq, Iraq, Pakistan, uh, India, Nepal, and, uh, do that trip.

And he said, yes, we should do it. And of course, life happened. And in the middle of the pandemic, he reminds me, Sandy, do you remember 30 years ago we said we'd do this? You know, I'm pushing, uh, 70. Could we do this soon?

And

at that point I

thought, wow,

you know, especially when we're looking at the frailty of life, right?

Because of the pandemic, I thought we have to do this. And as a result, last, uh, November, I organized, uh, you know, uh, a motor biking trip in Nepal, uh, for six of us. And Andy was one of them. The guy that, you know, really reminded me during the, uh, pandemic. So. That's also another way of grounding, right?

You have

to have a more balanced life, I think.

And so these are the kinds of things I do. Uh, of course I track, my ski all of that, uh, stuff.

But, uh, uh,

you know, uh, the, you know,

you have

to have something besides, I think just work

and entrepreneurship.

Otherwise you're going to, uh, burn out, right? Uh, you

know, you're

running a marathon, yet you can't go at a a hundred meter dash speed all the time.

So.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Uh, I love that story about the, the motorbike and it sounds like a, you know, once in a lifetime type of experience. I think I always think about those. What are my cup filling, uh, experiences? And someone mentioned that term to me like years ago and now I. Often think about it. And for me there's a lot of, it has to do with activities, outdoors, you know, hiking, running, gardening, um, so it's seasonal, um, but making sure that those cup filling activities are kind of core to kind of every, you know, week, uh, et cetera.

Um, and I think it's not only the bit benefit for ourselves, but it creates a ripple effect. So I imagine like you going on that trip. Like your kids probably saw that and were like, wow, I can do something like this, you know, in my adult life as well, and employees, and it gives them permission to think about things like that.

And so I just love, uh, the impact that that has. F.

Sanjay Manandhar: Yeah, and, you know, uh, I think especially in a startup, uh, you know, employees sometimes think, uh, they cannot take too much time off. And at Aruba we had, another thing we had was unlimited

vacation and

full flex time.

This 2005, six long before the pandemic when working from home, uh, was a thing. Um, and

if you

don't do it. uh, Just because you have a policy like that, your employees won't do it. So you have to do it. And I frequently took a whole week off where I turned off everything. Uh, and so yes, you know, that's very important.

And you mentioned, uh, uh,

uh,

hiking and running and all that. Uh, another thing I think about, uh, deeply staying healthy

because,

uh, and, and,

you know, all the movement

will keep you healthy because it's like, you know, when you. On a plane, they say if there's a, a loss of cabin pressure, uh, put your own mask first before you help anyone else.

So if you're not healthy, you cannot help other people or run a company and all that. So you, it's super important to stay super healthy and all the things, uh, you mentioned that, uh, one can do to stay healthy is super important.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, very well said. Uh, I would like to ask you maybe a more introspective question. Um, you know, knowing everything that you've learned over the years, if you were sitting in a room with your younger self, maybe in your first ever leadership role, what would you say to yourself?

Sanjay Manandhar: You don't need to be so intense all the time. That's in an in one sentence. That's what I

would say.

Because even though life is short, life is also long. Right? Uh, you know, sometimes, uh.

uh. how

you say something, what you, you know,

uh,

we all know, uh, it's not what you say or what you do, how you make someone else feel, uh, matters the most.

And I would be a

lot

more, I think, uh, uh, cognizant of that. Uh, but in the, in a, in being very, very, uh, rushed and efficient. You are sometimes saying things or asking people, uh, uh, to do certain things in too much of a hurry. I would almost say set the context, figure out in what shoes they're, uh, you know, walking themselves first, and then speak and then ask for, uh, whatever you're asking for.

And just because you are the CEO doesn't mean, uh, you know, you should not be empathetic, uh, of other people.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Uh, very well said. And I think with that, it's a great place to wrap. So if our listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to reach you?

Sanjay Manandhar: Um, I'd say, uh, my LinkedIn or, uh, email sanjay@zaino.com, Z-I-F-I-N

o.com. SA nj a y

at ZIFI o.com.

Natalie Nathanson: Perfect. Thank you. Uh, well, thank you, Sanjay. This has been a really great conversation.

Sanjay Manandhar: I really enjoyed it. Natalie, thank you very much.

Natalie Nathanson: Yes, I, uh, I loved hearing, I know your story about how you bootstrapped and how kinda that impacted things, and then the conversation we seem to keep coming back to around how, as entrepreneurs to keep ourselves energized and motivated and, and all of that.

So thank you so much for that. And thank you too to everybody who's listening. Um, if today's conversation sparked something for you, please pass it along to another leader. We know that insights like these really do fuel fresh thinking and help us drive real transformation in our companies and in ourselves.

So thanks again, Sanjay, and this has been another fantastic conversation on Shift and Thrive. I'll see you all next time.