The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
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Jen Fisher: Hi WorkWell listeners. I’m really excited to share that my book Work Better Together is
officially out. Conversations with WorkWell guests and feedback from listeners like you inspired this
book. It’s all about how to create a more human centered workplace and as we return to the office, for
many of us, this book can help you move forward into postpandemic life with strategies and tools to
strengthen your relationships and focus on your well-being. It’s available now from your favorite book
retailer.
Connection is foundational to our humanity, but at a time when society is more polarized than ever,
creating connection with others, especially those that are different from ourselves, can feel challenging.
Overcoming this tension takes care, compassion and empathy. How do we develop these essential skills
to not only connect with each other, but also connect with ourselves and our values? This is the
WorkWell podcast series. Hi, I’m Jen Fisher, Chief Well-being Officer for Deloitte. And I’m so pleased to
be with you today to talk about all things well-being. I’m here with Dr. Simran Jeet Singh. He is an
educator, writer, and activist on religion, racism, and justice. Simran is the executive director for the
Aspen Institute’s Religion and Society Program, and the author of the The Light We Give: How Sikh
Wisdom Can Transform Your Life. He’s also the author of the children’s book Fauja Singh Keeps Going:
The True Story of the Oldest Person to Ever Run a Marathon. In 2020, Time magazine recognized him
among 16 people fighting for a more equal America. Simran, welcome to the show.
Simran Jeet Singh (Simran): Thank you for having me. So happy to be with you.
Jen: Absolutely, so tell us about yourself. You know, tell us yourself, tell us about how you became
passionate about this intersection of religion, justice, and equality.
Simran: So I’m born and raised in the States in a part of a country called Texas, that some people may
have heard of, and my family immigrated from India. My parents did, and as part of their faith
background they’re practicing Sikhs. They wear turbans. We wear turbans. I have a long beard. I have
brown skin. And we were some of the only Sikhs in all of south Texas growing up. And so, part of my
experience in this country growing up was, you know, racism was an everyday reality for my family and
for me. And learning to deal with that. I mean, it’s been my life’s work and part of what really put me
onto this trajectory of thinking about these issues and dealing with them professionally. I was a senior in
high school when the terrorist attacks of 9/11 happened, and the racist backlash that followed was, I
mean, it was intense. We were getting death threats that day and it was so jarring for me as someone
who knew nothing about the identity of the attacker. I have never heard of Osama bin Laden. I’ve never
heard of Al Qaeda. I’m an American, so I had barely heard of Afghanistan because we don’t teach
geography so well here in this country. It was this strange thing where people on the street where, like,
“You are the enemy,” and saying all kinds of hateful stuff to me. And I was like, what do you mean? Like,
I don’t know what’s going on. And so, I think that’s really when I started to understand how racism…it’s
not that it was new for me and I had never been affected by, but it was when I started to understand
how people are racialized. How we have certain stereotypes and expectations of one another and that
can inform how we treat each other. And for me that was on the basis of my religious appearance, my
religious identity, and I saw all these people around the country who were getting attacked and who
were being marginalized just for where they came from or what they believed or how they looked. And
to me that became, you know, being on the receiving end of that pain, I started to connect with all the
people who I’ve never met before, who were going through the same thing and it became a really
important issue for me to focus my life on.
Jen: And you talk a lot more about your experience growing up and the racism that you experienced. Yet
your book, you chose the title, The Light We Give. So let’s talk about how those experiences shaped your
perspective to something that you’ve been able to, I guess, in large part used to help others you know
see things differently.
Simran: Yeah, I mean, I think this is the challenge of our lives. Like there are so many difficulties we all
face and each of us have their own struggles. And for me it happened to be that I wore a turban in a
country where people had never seen turbans before, and didn’t know what to make of me and really
saw us as threats. That’s been a big part of my challenge in this country, but we each have our own. And
I think part of the philosophy that has helped guide me through these difficulties has been to find the
goodness in the toughest situations. And, you know, I’ll give you an example, I was talking a little bit
about the racism immediately after 9/11 that we faced. We were in lockdown at home and we weren’t
leaving for several days. We were watching what had happened to our country during the day, with the
fallout of the attacks. And then in the evenings we would listen to leaders from the Sikh community talk
about here are the updates on everybody who’s been attacked in a hate crime. Here is how people are
doing. Here’s what we’re doing in response in our community. And it was just coming from all sides, and
my dad a few days after the attack, he said something like, you know, we’re so lucky. And I was like,
what do you mean we’re lucky, this makes no sense. Clearly, you don’t understand what’s happening to
us right now and he said, well, we have our neighbors coming to give us meals. We have your teachers
and classmates are calling to check in on you and your coaches and your teammates. I mean, we’re so
lucky that so many people care about us. And you know he didn’t say it in this moment, but the lesson
was clear that you can make a choice in your life to see the goodness around you and it’s harder to do
that. We’re wired to focus in on the negative, what we perceive as threats. And that’s a survival instinct,
and it’s great. And also, it can be really challenging to really see the world for what it is and what I truly
believe is that there’s more light than there is darkness, that there’s more love than there is hate, I
mean, I’ve witnessed that, I felt it, but it has to be intentional, and that’s part of what we learn in our
tradition that you can make that choice and it’s a subtle shift, but it can completely transform your
experience of the world.
Jen: When your dad said, I mean, how did you process all of this at such a young age. Because I think
that there’s so many of us, it’s not my lived experience, but I try to even put myself in your shoes just a
little bit, like I don’t even know how, I mean, what’s the process to move from feeling such a sense of
hatred to okay wait, there’s love and light in here, I just need to intentionally find it.
Simran: It’s such a good question in part, because if I’m being honest, like these experiences, you know,
I am an adolescent. I’m a teenager. I was 18 when the terrorist attacks happened. You know at that age
your parents give you life advice, and either you ignore it or you’re annoyed, and usually it’s both.
Usually you are first annoyed and they’re like, alright, whatever.
Jen: Yeah, yeah, dad.
Simran: It is true for me for a lot of my life that they would share these pearls and I would feel annoyed.
Again, going back to that example after September 11th, looking at my dad being like I don’t think…I
literally thought he didn’t understand what’s happening. I took him for being oblivious, and it’s only
after being willing to see that different perspective that way of looking at the world. And then applying it
that you say, oh, I see the value here. Otherwise, it’s a philosophy, it’s an idea, it’s a theory, and it has no
impact on your life. I mean there are plenty of ideas out there, and until you learn to put them into
action, you know, things sound good, but you kind of go on with your life and it doesn’t matter. And so, I
think part of what really helped me in accepting and receiving these ideas when they came my way, you
know, sometimes from my parents, sometimes from religious teachings, sometimes from pop culture.
They’re constantly around us. And so, often we just let them slide, but I think part of what I had to do by
virtue of my identity and the way people saw me and treated me was, I needed to find answers for
myself. Like what do I do in this world so that I don’t get sucked into the hate that’s constantly coming
my way. In the book I share this opening story of the first time I was called a terrorist when I was 11
years old by a soccer ref and he asked me to check my turban because he assumed there were some
bombs or knives in there, at least that’s what he said. And I let him like, I’d never let someone touch my
turban before and I leaned forward, and he checked it and I hated myself for doing that. Like, I just felt
so upset for a long time, for weeks for just giving in. Like it’s not that…
Jen: Yeah, but at that time you were 11 years old, how do you…you know, and this is an elder.
Somebody that you’re supposed to respect and listen to.
Simran: An authority figure and more than authority, I mean, he’s a soccer ref, in my life the most
important person at that time.
Jen: Totally, I played soccer I get it.
Simran: So I gave in and I was so upset and then I promised myself that I would stand up for myself next
time. And then a year later a basketball teammate in middle school, he made a racist joke which he
meant as a joke, and I wasn’t terribly offended by it and then he ripped off my turban and I flashed back
to this moment with the soccer ref, and I was like, I’m not letting this one go and I just started fighting
him. I knocked him over and jumped on him and I was punching him in the head. I mean it was intense
and our teammates broke us up and I just remember walking away that day and saying, this doesn’t feel
right either. I don’t feel good about my response earlier, which was giving in, and I didn’t feel good
about this response either, which was fighting back. And so, it occurred to me or at least it felt to me
that there had to be another way in these situations that felt like they were lose, lose. Like, racism is by
default a lose-lose situation. Nobody is winning, but the challenge then becomes how do you figure out
a response in these moments that helps you to walk away feeling proud. And I think that’s our challenge
in our lives. We have so many of these moments, each of us, where we’re not sure what to do, where
we feel like it doesn’t matter what we do, we’re going to end up being upset or frustrated or angry
anyway. And to me from that young age it felt like there had to be a middle path, as so many religious
traditions describe it, an alternative way where you can really engage and be yourself without becoming
corroded by the nastiness that is around us sometimes.
Jen: So, let’s talk about this because, obviously WorkWell is a podcast where we talk about well-being.
But I will admit that this is the first time that we’ve talked about spirituality and religion, although, I
mean, we know, and I believe that spirituality or connection to something larger than us, whatever you
want to call it, whatever it means to you, it plays such a significant role in our holistic health and wellbeing. So can you talk about how spirituality, religion helps us to create more fulfilling lives and I guess
walk this path of not being angry and hateful all the time, you know, how do you find this path of love
and light and trying to teach others about acceptance even though they aren’t like you.
Simran: Yeah, I love the question, and what we’ve learned from other areas of challenges that avoiding
tough conversations doesn’t actually make them better, whether it has to do with racial diversity or
gender or sexual orientation. And so, we’ve, as culturally, made this agreement that, okay, we’re going
to have the hard conversations and we’re going to be better for it. And religion, I think, is so often still
avoided actively, deliberately, because culturally we just have no idea how to talk about religion and
religious difference. And I understand why historically, I understand why politically, I understand why
practically, because religion is hard and it gets messy very quickly. But I think there are few places or few
ways in which talking about religion in appropriate ways can add real value in the workplace and one of
them has to do with our conversations on identity. People still, a majority of Americans, a large majority
of the world identifies as religious, considers themselves to be a practitioner or at least affiliated with
the religious tradition. And it’s a salient part of their identity. So if we’re avoiding something that
matters to people and we’re making it taboo to talk about it, we’re not giving them the opportunity to
show up as their full selves to work. And as we’ve learned through our research on psychological safety
and so on, that’s not what creates the most inclusive workplace environment. So I think that’s one area
of improvement culturally that we ought to start pushing on and leaning into. To answer your question
though, I think, part of what you were getting at is what does spiritual and religious philosophy have to
offer us as we think about the workplace setting and holistic living and our well-being. And I think for me
part of what’s going on here is we have this aversion to organize religion, because we’re afraid of
proselytization or we’re afraid of people trying to convert one another whatever it is, the power
dynamics. And I think to me that’s not what I mean when I’m saying let’s talk about religion, what I’m
really talking about is what are the insights and the values and the wisdom that we can draw from that is
universally applicable for us as we look for…
Jen: And that’s what your book is about.
Simran: Exactly. My book is about my life as a Sikh and Sikh philosophy, but really it’s about these ideas
that have changed my life and have the promise of changing everything.
Jen: How do we apply them?
Simran: Exactly, I think that’s the best of religion. It’s not actually about your ego or your community or
whatever it is. It’s about these principles and teachings and practices that can make us better. And in my
experience and in my work in the diversity and inclusion space, I think there are a lot of shortcomings in
the ways that we approach and think about diversity, equity, inclusion in our country today. And I think
there are some really important teachings from spiritual and religious traditions that could at least help
guide us into a better way that creates more opportunities, creates more equity, and creates stronger
communities for all of us.
Jen: And can you talk about one or two of those? What you think those are?
Simran: So one of the one of the challenges that I see with the diversity and inclusion model, there is a
lot of progress that’s coming with it, and I’m and I’m grateful for that. But part of the challenge is at the
end of the day, we’re still reinforcing individual identity, and we’re creating a more and more hyper
individualized society where we care more about our individual selves and have a harder and harder
time connecting with others and creating a collective sense of identity. And so, when you have that,
empathy and compassion are really hard. It’s harder to feel someone else’s pain. It’s harder to walk in
their shoes. And at the end of the day, it’s really hard to humanize people who are different from us.
And so, what we learn in spiritual traditions, which is very different than what we are doing with in our
DEI workplace development right now is that ego is the root of human suffering. So many traditions say
this, including my own. And so, what do you do when that is the core of our challenges? Empathy,
humility, like these become core practices that we then prioritize as ways of looking beyond ourselves.
The world is not about you. It’s not just about you and actually what I learned from my own philosophy
is that you yourself are happier when you are less obsessed with yourself, less self-centered, and you
are more generous with others. And again, it’s very countercultural. It’s very different from how our
society operates today, but I think so many of us have felt this personally. We’ve lived it out where we
have come to know, and we say it all the time it’s better to give than receive. It’s part of our cultural
understanding, but it’s not part of our cultural ethos. And I think leaning into that particular idea
whether it’s from Christian philosophy, which it is; whether it’s from Islamic teachings, which it is;
whether it’s from Buddhism, which it is; it’s in all of these traditions.
Jen: It’s just a really good way to live your life, right?
Simran: Exactly, it’s so funny. I have these two little girls that I’m raising and I’m like, I don’t really care
what religion you end up. I mean, I would love for you to love the one that I practice, because we could
share that. I don’t even care if they’re religious. At the end of the day, I just want them to be happy.
That’s what we want in our lives. We just want to be happy. And this is a really simple formula, that is
time tested. We’ve done it historically and still we are in this place where we’re having such a hard time
seeing. So anyway, I think that’s one teaching that I think could really transform the way that we
approach ourselves in one another in our society today, that would create so much more joy and
address so much of our pain.
Jen: I love that and it resonates with me so much and it’s something that we’ve been working on, you
know, moving to kind of what we’re collectively calling communities of care inside of our organization.
So moving beyond, obviously, from a well-being perspective, you know, foundationally you have to take
care of yourself in your own well-being, but part of that is actually caring for others. And I think the
misnomer around self-care is that none of us can really take care of ourselves by ourselves. So it’s not
truly self-care, you need other people in order to thrive and to really live a meaningful life. So what you
said just really resonates with me and where we’re trying to move as an organization when it comes to
the idea of care and well-being and so many other things.
Simran: Yeah, I love that and I think the notion of self-care itself is so valuable and in so many ways it’s
distorted and creating challenges. Audre Lorde when she offered this concept she was living in a very
different context, and I think she understood it very differently. She was a black lesbian woman
struggling with health issues in the ’80s and poverty. It’s a different context and part of what she’s
saying is her survival requires self-care. And I think there’s something really important to draw from
that, the part of what we’re seeing today is and what I mean by distortion is so commonly we are seeing
people over and over justify self-gratification as self-care. And I think what we’re…
Jen: Right like wine Wednesdays, and I need to go do this because of X and I deserve it type of thing.
Simran: Even that I’m like, that’s great. Enjoy life, that’s what it’s for and I have absolutely no… I’m the
same way, and I think that’s really important, but it feels like we’ve lost the depth of that idea and have
been telling ourselves something that it’s not. And so, to me what does it really look like to care for
yourself? And again, we can go back to our individual lives and say sure, get that extra ice cream or
whatever, but what are you doing to really bring fullness to your whole self and to your well-being. And
so, I think there’s more work for us to do there.
Jen: Yeah, I love that. So, let’s talk about something else that you that you talk a lot about in your own
experience and in your book is, you know, a positive mindset. And clearly that’s such a big part of your
story and this is something I think positivity is probably another one of these concepts that’s getting
distorted a little bit with positive vibes only and things like that. But can you talk about, first of all, what
it means to you to have a positive mindset and the importance of it. But how do you maintain that even
in the face of hardship?
Simran: Yeah, it’s a great question and I love that you brought up the positive vibes only and now we’re
talking about toxic positivity. I think part of what people are struggling with is the tendency or at least
the desire to cover life’s difficulties under the shroud of positivity. Just to say like, we only want positive
energy. We don’t want to deal with challenges. We don’t want to deal with difficulties. And I get that, I
wish life worked that way. But what we’re effectively running into is avoidance. Like we’re not dealing
with the challenges that are there. And I think that’s…again, that’s just not what is going to drive us.
That’s not what’s going to take us to happiness or to liberation or anything like that. Like I, I think we all
know this and are personally, I mean I do this too, I’m conflict averse. I will step away from any
challenge that I can and in the meanwhile, I’ve learned that they get worse and they snowball and then
they come back and they bite you in the ass. So these are real human tendencies, including for me. And
so, what do you do instead? What does a healthy optimism look like? And I think from my tradition,
what I learn is you see the world for what it is and that means you can accept that life’s challenges are
real. There are so many worldviews that will present to you this idea that the world is an illusion. And I
understand what is meant by that, but one of the challenges then becomes, well, if it’s all fake then I can
just ignore it and then I can die and then I can move into something that’s more real. And I have a hard
time buying into that, because we all experience pain, we all experience joy, and those feelings are so
real. Like, people suffering, to take someone who’s suffering, and to say oh, it’s just a mindset issue, just
change your mindset and you’ll stop being in pain. That seems so inhumane to me.
Jen: And it never works. When somebody is like, oh, just let it go or just think positive. You’re like, okay,
yeah, I mean that makes it worse, actually, for me.
Simran: Exactly, it does, and it’s annoying. Like if my wife comes home and tells me something about her
work and she’s upset and it’s bothering her, and I say don’t worry about it’s fine, like then she gets upset
at me, because she’s like no, it’s not fine. And it’s on me to recognize the reality that for her it’s not fine
Even if it’s going to be fine. It’s not.
Jen: Yeah, and I’m someone who lives with anxiety. So when I’m anxious when somebody is like oh,
don’t be anxious or don’t worry about it. I’m like yeah, but you don’t actually under…I mean, like if I
could control that, trust me, I would love to, but it doesn’t work that way.
Simran: I think that’s exactly…it’s such a good example. And I think, you know, then the question
becomes, going back to this point, what does healthy optimism look like? It is seeing the world for what
it is and taking it seriously. So, recognizing the reality of people’s pain, including your own. That life is
hard, life is challenging, and life is joyful and those are true at the same time. And I think it’s recognizing
and accepting that reality while also recognizing that there is constantly and consistently, the potential
for good. That it’s always there and that you just…just like my dad after the 9/11 attacks, just like my
dad in that moment, knowing that you have the choice to see the good. And I think that to me is what
optimism looks like, a healthy optimism. You see the pain, you deal with the pain, but also you can see
the goodness that’s all around you too. And I have the practice that I’ve developed for this and, I mean,
it was especially, I don’t even know the word, it was life changing during the pandemic. Because I live in
New York City at the center of COVID when it started. We got it early and my wife works at the hospital
and it was really scary, especially with our young kids. And it was really easy to get sucked into this
feeling that nothing good would ever happen again. That everything was falling apart. And what I
started doing, and this is something I did as a teenager a little bit, that really started in earnest during
the pandemic was I just walked out of my apartment and walked down the street and watched people.
And I would just see what they would do. In New York people watching is great. It’s a, I don’t know, like
a cultural pastime here, but you don’t actually watch people to see the good stuff. You usually watch
people to make fun of them. And so, I go outside in my apartment and walk down the street and just
watch what people do. And anytime I have this feeling that people are terrible, which especially recently
it’s easy to feel that way that everyone is hateful or angry or violent or whatever these feelings are, I
would just go down and watch people and see the little things that they would do for one another, you
know, helping someone with their grocery bag or opening up a cab door for someone. I saw that this
morning when I was out walking, you know, strangers. They don’t know one another. And in New York
you’re not really supposed to talk to anyone or demonstrate any kind of kindness, but it’s constantly
there. And I think part of what is different when I do this practice is those random acts of kindness don’t
really seem random, that it is part of who we are as people and being able, I mean, just taking a moment
and taking the effort to see that completely changes the way that I see other people around me, where I
might walk out feeling mistrust and I walk back in feeling like okay, these are good people around us and
not everyone is out to get me. That part it really serves well the desire to be more optimistic.
Jen: So I love this practice, and I love people watching, especially in airports because I do spend a lot of
time in airport. I guess, my question is like and you said you saw it this morning out on a walk, so I would
imagine like many other practices, especially since this is a well-being podcast, I mean, is this something
that now like anytime you kind of go out for a walk like you kind of key into these types of things
because you’ve developed this practice of looking for the good.
Simran: Yeah, it’s a great question and I think it’s only really a question that somebody would ask if they
have practices of their own, because it’s exactly how this stuff works. Like you do it one day and you do
it at the second day and you do it the third day and by the 5th or 6th or 7th day it becomes more
habituated, and you don’t have to do it so consciously. And I wouldn’t say, you ask the question, do I key
in on these? I don’t think so. I think I notice them in ways that most people don’t notice them, but it’s
not like I’m actively working for them or it’s not that I’m going out of my way trying to find the goodness
in people. It just has become something that is more ingrained, because it’s become a longer standing
practice for me. And so, everyone has their own sort of random things that they notice in life. Like for
me, the thing that I love more than anything is watching a New Yorker walk down the sidewalk, see
somebody about to enter the door of an establishment, a restaurant, or a bodega, or whatever, and
they’ll walk over, open the door and then just keep walking. And you have to realize in that moment
that they weren’t going in, they had the thoughtfulness to see someone about to go in, wanted to give
them a hand, and there’s no credit desired. It’s not about them at all. And so, for me, that’s one that just
sticks out that I feel like I notice every time it’s around me, because if there’s something really powerful
about that for me and I think we all have our own sorts of tiny moments and acts of kindness that we all
appreciate, and so looking for those, I think is really powerful.
Jen: I love that and obviously, we can tell that we’re recording this real time from New York City with the
sirens in the background. Can’t escape them, right?
Simran: I was trying to prove it. Exactly.
Jen: So let’s talk about relationships both at work and in our personal life, and just that society is so
polarized which in my experience, then makes it harder to connect with people who are different from
ourselves. I think as human beings we already have a natural tendency to, you know, go toward people
that are like us. But then when you add all of this polarization on top of it, it makes it even harder and
kind of exacerbates the problem even more. So, talk about how we can overcome that and use care and
compassion to build connection across these differences when we live in this world that’s kind of making
it really, really hard to do that right now.
Simran: I think there are multiple practices and strategies that I have for this because I agree with you,
it’s so hard and it feels even harder now than it did 10 years ago when I really started thinking about
these challenges. But I’ll share one that I think is both simple, yet pragmatic, and that is even the way
you described the question, which is the way that so many of us think is, we have a tendency as humans
to go to people who are more like us. I’ll share an embarrassing story with you, actually that highlights
this and how I learned the truth of this, which is, so I grew up in Texas. No people from my background
who lived down there. And so, when I was moving to New York where there’s a big Sikh population. I
was so excited. Because I was like, I’m going to meet so many people who are just like me. And I started
hanging out with Sikhs and really enjoyed it. I found the group of guys who were about my age, who
liked basketball, who liked going out to eat, and those kinds of things. And the more time I spent with
them, I was like man, they are so different…like we have very little in common actually, in terms of how
we see the world. And I was thinking about them in relation to my friends in college and high school and
I was like man, I am actually more similarly oriented to the world with my friends in college than I am to
people of my own faith, who I thought would see the world similarly. And, of course, that’s how the
world works. Like it’s kind of embarrassing to admit now that I ever thought that it would be that way.
But what I’ve learned is time and time again, I make these assumptions that someone who is living in the
same neighborhood as me or someone who is the same race or gender or whatever as may will have
more in common with me than someone who looks different or has a different accent or whatever it is.
And so, part of the challenge I think is how limited we are in thinking about who we are as people. The
way that we put ourselves into little categories and check mark boxes, and say I am XYZ and so my
people are also XYZ. And if you’re not either X or Y or Z, you’re not one of my people. And it’s just not
true. And I found that over and over again and I have people who I consider my people who come from
all different stripes, come from all different kinds of backgrounds, and it’s that initial entry point into
finding what you have in common with people, but I think the reality is we have a lot in common with
every single person in this world. And so, the point is, and this is, I mean, it’s a simple point, but the
limitation is not our identities or our differences that we have with one another, it’s how we see our
identities and our differences. And there we put such a tight boundary around who we are for ourselves
that we are then unable to see the full humanity of who we are and of the people we are encountering
in the world. And so, there’s just this constant challenging that I think has to happen internally to say,
this is who I am beyond these tick boxes that we’ve developed, and also other people around us that
we’re meeting every day are more than their race and their gender and their class and so on. And so, I
think that kind of opening up and expansion.
Jen: Yeah, I love that and how does this tie into, because you talk a lot about values. So in the
importance of values, especially I mean, I think about it kind of from the lens of well-being in our own
well-being journey, but also in relation to others and our world. But can you talk about your view on
values, why they’re important? And then I think for so many people, values to me in some ways is
similar to purpose, you know, they can sometimes feel fuzzy or hard to grasp. Like, how do we go about
identifying and sticking to our values in the world that we live in, that’s kind of constantly telling us we
should value this or that, but it’s really kind of an inside job first.
Simran: Yeah, part of what’s been illuminating for me is realizing that we know it’s a best practice for
companies to identify their values and to develop processes to hold themselves accountable to those
values. That’s a given at this point of where we are in our world, and what’s less obvious to us is how
much this approach can benefit us as individuals if we learn to apply it in our daily lives too. And that’s
something that my parents taught us again, going back to this point that when you’re a teenager, you’re
annoyed by everything your parents do. They started to instill very intentionally and explicitly the
practice of identifying and articulating what your particular values are, and we would go through this
exercise as a family. And I hated it at first and never really thought it would be something that would
make a difference in my life. And part of what I learned was until you do this or without doing this when
those difficult moments come in your life, your intuitive response is going to be reactionary. You’re only
going to do whatever comes to your mind in the moment, and if you haven’t really prepared yourself for
these difficult moments, you’re probably going to end up in this place where you are ashamed of how
you responded. Like, let’s think for a moment about my experience that I shared earlier about the
referee who tried to touch my turban and I was upset with how I responded then, and then my friend
who pulled off my turban and I was upset that I fought him afterwards. And part of what I’ve learned is
the best way to prepare a compass for yourself so that you know how to deal with these situations is to
have a clear sense of what your values are and to develop daily practices for each of them. And I’ll say,
you know, what I’ve learned through my experiences with racism, but I think this is true for life in
general, like there’s no formula, there’s no clear step 1, step 2, step 3 in order to deal with the
challenges we face, both because usually there’s not enough time but also life is so complicated. And so,
it’s not helpful to say here is exactly what I will do in exactly this situation, because it never plays out like
that.
Jen: Clear path, we’d love it if there was a clear path.
Simran: It would be so much easier. I would love that, yeah, but it’s not unfortunately. And so what has
been most instructive for me and most valuable for me has been to identify those values, to put them
onto paper, to develop daily practices to ensure that I’m cultivating each one on a daily basis, so that
when push comes to shove and I am in one of those difficult moments, and I will say for me and this is
part of what I try to share in the book, like it’s worked. And it makes sense that it works, because we
know that this is how human behavior operates. You can have all these ideas in your head, you know all
the philosophes, it doesn’t matter if you’re not ready to put them into your life. And so, it’s the
understanding of what those values are for you personally and then the practice of them that go hand in
hand. That’s really what gets you ready for living into them. And to your point, just to close this thought
out, that is where you find purpose. That is where you find satisfaction. I mean we’re talking about wellbeing and wholeness, part of what it means to be whole is to live with integrity where you are closing
the gap between who you aspire to be and who you are and that means following through on your
actions toward whatever those aspirations are that you’ve identified. And so, what we learn in the Sikh
philosophy is, you can become these qualities if you live by them every day. So I think that’s the idea of
becoming a quality is a really powerful one for me.
Jen: Very beautifully said. Thank you. So final question and I want to talk to you about another book that
you wrote that maybe isn’t as well known. It’s a children’s book called Fauja Singh Keeps Going and this
is an incredible story of perseverance. So talk to me about this book and then also tell me why it was
such an important story for you to share with children.
Simran: Now I’m both surprised and very happy that you’re bringing this up. It’s not what I would expect
in a podcast conversation like this, but there is a really valuable tie in, you know, of course, for me this
this story is about the world’s oldest marathoner and the first to ever run a marathon at the age of 100.
And so it’s my personal inspiration. He changed my life. I started running marathons when I saw him
cross the line at 100. And actually it was mostly inspiration, but it was definitely a good part of it was
shame. What am I doing with my life if I’m avoiding running marathons when he is. But as I got to know
him, I started to realize that he challenged so many of my assumptions of what a hero could look like,
and of course, for me that the first one that I wanted to share with the world was here’s a guy with a
turban and a beard who can be a hero, who is a hero, and you don’t typically see that, but I sat with him
and realized here is someone who is the living embodiment of everything that we say is wrong with
our…like he is elderly. We never talk about our elderly. I mean ageism is a huge problem. He dealt with
disability as a child and it was really important to me to show that people who have disabilities also can
be heroes. He was an immigrant. The one that really challenged me, if I’m being honest is literacy. I had
always assumed, I had always been taught that the people who deserve our respect are those who are
literate, because they try hard and they care and they’re smarter. And here I was meeting face to face
with one of my heroes, and as we were talking, I learned that he never learned to read or write. Literally
the only thing he can write in the world is his name and not in English. So like, English access is another
cultural bias that I have and many of us have. And so, I had to deal with the fact that my hero was
illiterate and didn’t even…I hadn’t even questioned that bias that I had until I met him. And so, as I got
to know him, you know, all of these ideas and challenges came to me and I was thinking, man, this is
what our kids need, our kids need to see these people as heroes too. And so, that’s a big reason for me
why the story was about somebody who accomplished something great in their lives and an incredible
human being, but also this way of looking at who we are as people in ways that humanizes some of our
biggest biases, humanizes people that we have biases against and I thought that was really important for
me, especially as a father.
Jen: And I think overall just challenges, our assumptions around who we believe a hero is or isn’t, right?
Simran: Exactly, and I will also tell you that book for me…I mean it’s interesting because it’s a kids book,
but that book for me was an expression of here are some of the issues that we should be talking about
and thinking about as a society, as parents, as kids, but it’s opened up conversations among adults too.
Who are saying to me, oh, I’d never really thought about ageism or I’d never really thought about
ableism. And so, I think just the willingness or the opportunity to tell these stories can have a really
positive effect on people too.
Jen: I love it. Well, Simran, I feel like we could keep going, but I know that we only we only scheduled a
certain amount of time for this conversation. It has been amazing. Everything I thought it was going to
be, I’m taking so much away from it. I know our listeners will too. So thank you for your time and for
everything you were doing for the world to make it a better place because you’re doing some amazing
work.
Simran: Thank you. It was great to talk to you.
Jen: I’m so grateful Simran could be with us today to talk about spirituality, empathy, and human
connection.
Thank you to our producers, Rivet 360 and our listeners. You can find the WorkWell podcast series on
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