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In this episode of the Lead On podcast, Jeff Iorg, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Executive Committee, addresses the challenges of ministry leadership, particularly the tendency for Christian leaders to become isolated within Christian circles. Inspired by Chuck Lawless's article, Iorg reflects on questions that probe whether leaders are too cocooned among believers, have made evangelism purely a corporate effort, or lack intentional personal engagement with non-Christians. He emphasizes the importance of breaking out of this Christian subculture to share the gospel personally. Iorg identifies personal and theological barriers, such as fear of failure, fear of cultural engagement, concerns about compromise, and misconceptions about church and discipleship. He advocates for intentionality in changing one's thinking, schedule, and involvement in activities that connect with non-Christians, urging leaders to model gospel-sharing in their daily lives.
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Ready to hone your leadership skills and unlock your full potential? Tune in to the Lead On Podcast, where Jeff Iorg dives deep into Biblical leadership.
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From effective communication and team building to strategic decision-making and fostering innovation, each episode is packed with valuable lessons and inspiring stories to empower you on your leadership journey.
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Welcome to the lead on podcast. This is Jeff Ords, the president of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, talking with you once again about practical issues related to ministry leadership. On this podcast, we try to focus on the daily work of ministry leadership and some of the challenges that are unique to the roles and responsibilities we have. A few days ago, I came across an article by a good friend of mine named Chuck Lawless, who was writing a personal account of his recent mission journeys. And in the context of that, an awareness that came to him about how disconnected it was possible even for someone like him who's committed his life to international missions, even for someone like him to be disconnected from sharing the gospel with people.
Jeff Iorg:He framed his article around several questions that were really gripping for me, and I wanna read through those and then I wanna talk about some response today on the podcast. Here were Chuck Lawless' questions. Am I cocooned among believers? That first question stopped me in my tracks. This has been an ever present problem for me and an increasing problem for me the more I have, been given Christian leadership responsibility.
Jeff Iorg:The more responsibility I have, the greater the breadth of responsibility, the more all consuming that responsibility, the less connection I have with people who do not yet know Jesus Christ. And so this first question really gripped me. Am I cocooned among believers? And then he goes on. Is my world too small?
Jeff Iorg:Do I see the crowds wrongly? Do I love the loss like I should? Have I allowed grace to become routine? Do I reflect enough on obedience as a witness? Have I
Jeff Iorg:made evangelism only corporate?
Jeff Iorg:And that question also really gripped me. It's so easy for some
Jeff Iorg:of us in leadership to think that we're doing evangelism, but when we're only doing it corporately, meaning that we're only doing it in large settings like preaching or in organizational settings where we're perhaps training, recruiting, or even funding others to actually do the work of evangelism. And so this question, have I made evangelism only corporate, also gripped my heart. And then the last question, do I have anyone praying that I will share the gospel boldly? After reading Chuck's questions, I reflected on some teaching that I've done over the years called breaking out of the Christian subculture. And I wanna talk today about the challenge that Christian leaders have of connecting with people who do not yet know the gospel and really learning to personally engage them so that our sharing of the gospel is personal, not just corporate, and is frequent, not just, programmatic.
Jeff Iorg:You know, as Christian leaders, we face this dilemma.
Jeff Iorg:The longer we lead, the more immersed and, therefore, encapsulated we are by the Christian subculture.
Jeff Iorg:The longer we lead, the more disconnected we can become from the world in which we're living, particularly that which is inhabited by non Christians because we're spending all of our time preaching to, counseling with, sharing meals with, doing fellowship and recreational activities with, going on vacation with, going out to dinner with other Christians. Now there's certainly some balance here. There is strong, encouragement in scripture to build your life as a Christian around the lives of other Christians who share your vision, your mission, your values, your commitments. No question about that. But as Christian leaders, it's possible for us to become so immersed in that cultural setting that we are encapsulated in it.
Jeff Iorg:Meaning, we are sealed off by it from any meaningful contact with people who really need the gospel. Another part of this dilemma is that the longer we lead, the harder it is for us to model sharing the gospel with lost people and to teach others how to do it because they see us doing it naturally or habitually. Another dilemma about this is that the longer we serve Christians, the more rewards there are for doing so. Now, Now when I say rewards, I don't just mean financial rewards, although, frankly, those are part of the equation. I also mean accolades, recognitions, appreciation.
Jeff Iorg:All of that comes to us as we serve other Christians much more readily than it comes when we serve people who are not yet followers of Jesus. So there is this dilemma of Christian leadership that we find ourselves immersed and therefore encapsulated by our leadership responsibilities, and the more we grow in them, the harder it is to model, communities with the gospel. And frankly, the less motivated we are to do so because there are more and more rewards either monetary or certainly in accolades and appreciation that come to us from serving other Christians. And yet and yet, we know that we have a responsibility to connect with people who do not yet know Jesus Christ and to do that habitually and regularly and naturally through the course of life and to be a model for what it means to share the gospel. What then are some barriers that are keeping us from doing this and then some steps we can take to be more intentional about connecting with people who need the gospel.
Jeff Iorg:Well, first of all, some barriers to infiltrating culture with the gospel. First of all, there are what I call personal barriers, and the first of these is the fear of failure. We fear that if we attempt to do this, we won't be very successful and we'll only be discouraged. Well, the hard reality is, if you work hard at reaching out to lost people who do not yet know the gospel, If you do that, you're going to experience some failure along the way. You're going to make some mistakes, have some missteps, have some relationships that don't flourish.
Jeff Iorg:You'll have some, what some people might call, failure. But in the context of doing that, you will also, of course, have the privilege from time to time sharing the gospel. So while you may fear failure, don't let that hold you back. It's a barrier, but it's a barrier to be overcome. Another barrier is the fear of the culture.
Jeff Iorg:We just don't like the world around us, and we don't like the people who live in it. We don't wanna be engaged with them, connected with them. We don't wanna have dinner with them. We don't wanna have them in our homes. We don't wanna sit down and have meaningful conversations with them.
Jeff Iorg:Because quite frankly, we're afraid of the conflict, the difficulty, the strife that will come when we engage people in those context. Here's another concern we have. We're concerned about compromise. Now this is a legitimate concern for Christians. We are challenged in the bible to live circumspect lives, to keep ourselves free from sin, and to live morally upright.
Jeff Iorg:I certainly affirm all of that. Concerns with compromise though does not imply that every time we engage with people who do not yet know Christ that we're somehow compromising ourselves or risking compromising our faith.
Jeff Iorg:I would go on to say if if
Jeff Iorg:your faith is that weak, I would describe it as a greenhouse faith that can only stand in the protected environments where it can grow safely. No. You need a faith that can withstand a hurricane, A faith that can withstand all the outside pressures that come against us for living for Jesus Christ. So you may be concerned about compromise and that has some legitimacy, but if you're letting it overwhelm you to the point that you disengage entirely from the world around you because you don't wanna be tainted by it, You gotta overcome that barrier. And then one final barrier is the behavioral expectations some people have of us.
Jeff Iorg:We find ourselves as Christian leaders trying to tow the line, kinda live up to the standard, not make any mistake or engage in any behavior that other people might find questionable. We just don't wanna deal with the criticism that comes from that. And I had to face this early on when I was working in baseball chapel with
Jeff Iorg:the major league athletes. Oftentimes,
Jeff Iorg:especially when I was reaching out to non Christian athletes, I'd get an opportunity to have a lunch or a dinner with them or do something socially and almost always, it included alcohol. Now most professional athletes are not, heavy drinkers. They take care of their bodies much better than that. But they do have, occasional, glass of wine or a
Jeff Iorg:beer or something like that. Sometimes
Jeff Iorg:people would say to me, well, how can you be around people who are doing that? Well, how can I not if I'm gonna build a relationship with them and that's who they are and what they're doing? It certainly didn't mean that I had to participate in their activity, but I did have to be with them while it was taking place. Now, everyone has to draw some lines in this. There were some places, for example, that I would tell players, you know, I just can't go to that kind of bar, that kind of establishment.
Jeff Iorg:There are just things there that, aren't really healthy for me, and I I don't wanna be a
Jeff Iorg:part of that. And they generally respected me when I had to say that. But most of
Jeff Iorg:the time, that wasn't the case. Most of the time, they were doing things where I could be in their presence and it really wasn't a problem for me, but it might have been a problem for others who observed us. And that's the barrier I'm talking about where you have to get beyond worrying about what people are gonna think about you just if they happen to see you in the presence of someone doing something that offends them or they find unhealthy. So these are some personal barriers you have to get over if you're gonna engage people with the gospel. Fear of failure, fear of the culture, gotta get past concerns about compromise or behavioral expectations.
Jeff Iorg:Just gotta work through these things and recognize that you can't let these things hold you back from connecting with people who do not yet know Jesus Christ. There are also, however, some theological barriers that hold us back. The first of these is a diminished understanding of the power of service. We we forget that serving in Jesus' name is a powerful entree into the lives of other people. And so going out and doing things that make other people successful, even in secular context, gains us credibility and privilege to serve the gospel.
Jeff Iorg:Do not underestimate the power of service. And then another wrong, another theological barrier is a wrong definition of church. We define a healthy church as a church that has an institutional presence and particularly, a place where a lot of people gather. But really, the strength of the church in the New Testament was its organic strength and its capacity to make a difference in its community or in its world, its missional impact. So it is important to measure the institutional health of a church by how many people come and how much money is given and things like that, But it's perhaps more important to measure the health of a church by how many people are sent or how many people are going in ministry in its name.
Jeff Iorg:Another wrong definition is a wrong definition of discipleship. We tend to define discipleship success as participation in programs rather than transformation of life. In And so it's not so much about completing And so it's not so much about completing the program, meaning that you attend the class or check the box in the notebook as much as it is about you being transformed. And then another barrier is a wrong definition of commitment. The biblical definition of commitment really focuses more on obedience than legalism.
Jeff Iorg:It's more on doing what's right than checking the boxes of people's expectations. So some of these are theological barriers that we have to overcome that will help us to move out of being encapsulated by this Christian, Christian responsibility of leadership we've been given and move us more toward engaging with, connecting with lost people. So those are some of the barriers we have to overcome. Now let's skip and talk for the balance of the podcast about some steps to take to infiltrating the culture around you with the gospel and engaging yourself more intentionally and more directly in, the lives of lost people and sharing the gospel with them. The first thing you have to do is to change your thinking and to overcome the barriers I've just been been talking about.
Jeff Iorg:Now, this may involve some internal struggle. You know, when I started out as a Christian, I was in a church that had a particular way of doing things. And quite frankly, that church had a profound impact in my life for the positive. But the negative was I left that church thinking that their way was the only way. And so when I started making some changes, for example, when I set aside the translation of the Bible that I had been taught as a child and started using one that was much more accessible to lost people and trying to, preach and teach and even share the gospel personally from that translation.
Jeff Iorg:In some ways, I felt like I was abandoning my faith because I was changing something that was at the core of what my founding church and the church that shaped me in my early Christian life had taught me. So there was an internal struggle for me in doing this. Another internal struggle for me was when I left, the Midwest and moved to the West Coast and planted a church. We decided to plant our church with a streamlined schedule which didn't have nearly as many church activities as I had in my previous, iteration of church life. This was another internal struggle for me.
Jeff Iorg:It was hard because I had defined myself for so long as a Christian and then a pastor who participated in programs or led programs, and I measured my success by how many people came to those. And now I was planting a church and we were streamlining our schedule and in very intentionally challenging people to give one time slot a week, meaning, one night a week or one Saturday morning or Saturday afternoon or something. One time slot a week in their lives to intentionally reaching out, to people who did not yet know Jesus Christ and to try to share the gospel with them and bring them to faith in Jesus. Now, in doing that, we challenged people to have balance, to have a balance of bible study and worship and outreach or missional activity as a part of their core commitment to their church. This was an internal struggle, not only for me, but for others that were a part of that founding of that new church.
Jeff Iorg:In fact, one of the women who helped us plant the church was a pastor's daughter. Now by the time she came into, into our relationship and was helping us plant the church, She was a mother in her mid thirties with 2 small children. So, she had been, in church and in church life for a long time, by the time she helped us plant our church. After the church had been going on for a few months, one day, she, was talking with me and reflecting on our church plant and her experience with that, and she made this very interesting statement.
Jeff Iorg:She said, pastor, I am going to church less than I've ever done in my life, but I'm doing the church better than I've ever done it in my life. Man, that was such an insightful conversation for me
Jeff Iorg:because after she made that statement, then she went on to describe some of the internal struggle that she had experienced in going through this major change of her thinking about what defined church, what defined discipleship, what defined commitment. And she was having to work through some of her theological misunderstandings and her practical applications of her lie over her 30 plus years of life that she was having to reevaluate. And quite frankly, it was a struggle for her. So when you choose to change your thinking and overcome some of these barriers I'm describing today, it may have an some internal struggle. You may go through a process of some painful change as you reorient yourself in thinking about how you can be more intentionally connected to people who do not yet know know Christ.
Jeff Iorg:This may also lead to some relational conflict. Again, when we planted the church in Oregon, we were very much engaged with, reaching people with the gospel and what that was going to be like. And one of the things we decided to do was, become very much involved in the public school system in our community and in the youth sports programs in our community. And frankly, some people criticized us for this. They said, you know, you really can't be in the public schools because they're evil.
Jeff Iorg:They're they're, they're ungodly. They're too secular. Well, there certainly were days when they were evil and ungodly and days we wondered if they were too secular. But nevertheless, we knew that that was one place that we were equipped for and we had opportunity to really connect with people who did not yet know the gospel. And so we plunged in.
Jeff Iorg:And even though we were criticized for it and had some relational conflict resulting, it was still worth the effort. So the first step to infiltrating the culture with the gospel and connecting with lost people around you is to change your thinking. The second thing you may have to do as a Christian as a Christian leader is to decide to adjust your schedule. Now, you may have to adjust it personally, and you may have to adjust your schedule and your involvement in your church. Now, what do I mean by personally?
Jeff Iorg:Well, you may have to make some choices about where you're spending your time. So you look at your weekly calendar and you see, wow. You know, I try to have lunch with 2 people, every week just to continue building relationships and making connections with them. But as I look at my calendar, I see that those 2 people every week are church members or church friends, and I'm finding myself spending those lunch times only connecting with believers. And so, you may say, I need to intentionally change my schedule so that at least once a week, I'm doing everything I can to have lunch with someone who does not yet know Jesus Christ, who's not yet connected to him through the gospel, and to build the opportunity or even take the opportunity to share Jesus Christ in that context.
Jeff Iorg:That's what I mean by personally changing your schedule. It may mean that you have to change it in relationship to your church participation as well. I've already given the illustration to my friend who said she was going to church less than ever before, but doing the church better than ever before. I know this is going to be hard and sometimes controversial when I say it, but some Christians need to go to church less. Now, do not misunderstand me.
Jeff Iorg:I'm not talking about abandoning your church or not ever going on Sunday or anything like that. But I am saying, if you're going to church on Sunday morning and you're going back to church on Sunday night or Wednesday night or some other activity night and you're involved in some other kind of morning men's bible study and then you're involved in some other service activity on the weekend. Your life is already full with a lot of Christian activity and relationship, and I'm simply saying, you may need to make an intentional choice to scale some of that back so that you can plug yourself into places, activities, opportunities to be more meaningfully connected with people who do not yet know Jesus. I'll just give you one example.
Jeff Iorg:I have a friend who played in a church softball league. He really liked to play softball, and he had a good time with his Christian friends playing in this league. But he decided to stop, not stop playing softball, but he decided to stop playing in a Christian league with his church team. Instead, he joined a team that had formed through his work, and he played in a secular league
Jeff Iorg:so that he could have more time outside of work to build relationships with guys who did not yet know Jesus Christ so that he might have the opportunity to share the gospel with him. That's what I'm talking about when I say intentionally change your schedule. And I wanna underscore this. I am not talking about, not going to church, not being involved in Bible study, not in being not ever attending a men's group. I'm not talking about eliminating church from your life.
Jeff Iorg:I'm talking about bringing some balance to your schedule so that you say, if I'm going to intentionally be engaged with people who do not yet know the gospel, I've gotta put it in my schedule where I'm gonna have an opportunity to have relationship with them. And making a scheduling transactional decision may be part of that process. Here's a third step, and that is choose an affinity based activity or project in order to connect with people who are not yet Christians. When I say affinity, I mean, choose something that aligns with your interests. Now, I already mentioned that, earlier in life, we did this through schools and through youth sports.
Jeff Iorg:Those were interest that were very natural in our family. Now, as time went on, I was able to do this through baseball by my umpiring and by my being involved as a baseball chapel leader. Still doing something that I found interesting and enjoyable that I could connect with and plug in, in the in those ways. Now, I recognize that listening to this podcast, a few thousand people have all kinds of interest, backgrounds,
Jeff Iorg:you know, things that you want to be involved in. I get that.
Jeff Iorg:So I'm not advocating for one thing like schools or sports. I'm simply saying that if you wanna really connect with lost people and you wanna connect with people who you're probably going to have some kind of connection with, do it through an affinity that you really enjoy. And when you find something that really connects with your interest, you'll probably find it to be an enjoyable place and a natural place for you to be. I know this may sound kind of strange, but when I walk onto a baseball field or walk into a baseball dugout or walk into a baseball clubhouse, I feel like I'm home. I know the culture.
Jeff Iorg:I know what's happening. I know why it's happening. I know what people are thinking. I I I read the the body language. I I I know the nuances.
Jeff Iorg:I get it. If you dropped me into a
Jeff Iorg:group of people that were playing video games or that were discussing science fiction movies, I wouldn't have a clue how
Jeff Iorg:to relate in that context. That those are not my people. Now that doesn't mean I can't be nice to them or try to have a little bit of a relationship. But if I'm gonna build real relationships with people, it's probably best if I choose that group that has an affinity with my own interest, my own perspectives, my own things that I find, enjoyable. And so build, your opportunities for engaging with people around your affinities, around your interests.
Jeff Iorg:And then also an affinity with what I will describe as your family or even an affinity with
Jeff Iorg:your leadership role. Again,
Jeff Iorg:my wife has always had, the possibility of connecting with people through her volunteer service, and she did that for years in the public school context and then in other context after that. But she's always sought out places to volunteer and serve because that fits in with her interest. It fits in with our family's planning and schedule and needs, and it also fits in with her leadership roles that she's had over the years. So when you're thinking about how can I take steps to connect with more people who do not yet know Jesus Christ, these are some steps you can take? Choose to change your thinking, choose
Jeff Iorg:to adjust your schedule, and choose an affinity, a connect point that's based on
Jeff Iorg:an activity or a project or an interest, and certainly based on things that are important in your family and in your leadership role.
Jeff Iorg:Now, I'm often asked, in the context of talking about breaking out
Jeff Iorg:of the Christian subculture, connecting better with lost people, I'm often asked what's the secret or the key to making this happen? It's one word, intentionality. Intentionality. It doesn't really matter the method you use. It doesn't matter the approach.
Jeff Iorg:It doesn't matter the schedule. It doesn't matter the kind of people. It really doesn't matter about so many of these things. But what does matter is intentionality. That you make a decision that I am not going to just have good intentions or best wishes or, even prayerful hopes, but I'm going to be intentional.
Jeff Iorg:I'm going to change my thinking. I'm going to amend my schedule. I'm going to, think through my affinities and the connect points that are more natural for me, and I'm going to make an intentional choice to change,
Jeff Iorg:to change my behaviors, to change my patterns, to change my relationships, to change my connections. I'm going to make the change intentionally. Now,
Jeff Iorg:if you're listening to this podcast today and you're not a Christian leader, you're a Christian that serves and works in a secular context and has children that are involved in all kinds of community activities, you're probably listening to this and thinking, what is wrong with these people? That is my normal daily life.
Jeff Iorg:But I'm talking today about Christian leaders who go back to the beginning, who can become encapsulated and then insulated by Christian service from the meaningful connections we need
Jeff Iorg:with people who do not yet know Jesus Christ and the opportunities that we should be modeling to share the gospel with them. If you're in that category today, you're going to have to be intentional.
Jeff Iorg:You're going to have to practice intentionality. You're going to have to make concrete choices to make real changes to become more effective in this area of your Christian life and in this area of modeling as a Christian leader. Breaking out of the Christian subculture. It's a challenge for Christian leaders because we get so caught up in what we're doing. We get so caught up in the preaching, the teaching, the Bible study leading, so caught
Jeff Iorg:up in Christian fellowship and activities, so caught up in the Christian subculture that it becomes challenging for us to have the meaningful relationships we need to as conduits for gospel sharing, and to set the example, and to be the models that we really need to be in this area. So I wanna challenge you today. I go back to, my friend Chuck Lawless's questions that got me started on this podcast. Am I cocooned among believers? And then, have I made evangelism only corporate?
Jeff Iorg:If you'd have to answer yes to those two questions, then perhaps some reflection and some good choices based on what you've heard on this podcast today can help you redirect. I have found that there is still nothing as invigorating as sharing the gospel with a person. And then, when you are blessed in the moment to be present, when they repent of their sin and place their faith in Jesus, That is a spiritual infusion like nothing else. So Christian leaders, I know that a lot of you a lot of what you do to serve Christians is very fulfilling. But I know that the real joy, the real fulfillment, the real inspiration of what we do comes from seeing lost people place faith in Jesus.
Jeff Iorg:Take steps today to break out of the Christian subculture, to implement some of what we talked about today, that you might be more effective in sharing the gospel with people around you, and you might be a better model for others in this important area as you lead on.