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Marat Fleytlikh, Associate Director, Consumer Insights at The Kraft Heinz Company, is an industry legend. Meagan sat down with Marat to discuss how Kraft Heinz is “walking the talk,” the art and science behind insights, and being an enabler versus a barrier.
Welcome to Dig In, the podcast brought to you by the minds at Dig Insights. We're interviewing some of the most inspiring brand professionals in marketing, innovation, and insights to discover the story behind the story of their most exciting innovations.
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;28;01
Speaker 1
And I'll come to this meeting is being recorded. Oh, yes, it is. All right. Three, two, one. Welcome back to this week's episode of Dig In. I'm joined today by Murat Slater, who is an associate director of insights at Kraft Times. I actually had the pleasure of meeting Murat a few weeks ago when we were at Quirks together.
00;00;28;02 - 00;00;29;05
Speaker 1
Murat, how are you doing?
00;00;30;01 - 00;00;31;23
Speaker 2
I am fantastic. Thank you for having me.
00;00;32;07 - 00;00;53;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks for joining us. It's always a pleasure. We we had a great dinner and had a chance to kind of noodle over what's going on in the space. I thought you'd be such an interesting guest for the listeners to to hear from. Can you tell us a little bit about your professional experience?
00;00;54;07 - 00;01;17;02
Speaker 2
Most definitely. Most definitely. And a fantastic dinner. Great to see your audience and colleagues from my past and future. So it's amazing. It's great stuff. A little background. I split time between client and vendor side roles, which has been great as far as the purview into how things work from a foundational data standpoint and then how things work from a strategic implementation standpoint.
00;01;17;10 - 00;01;41;09
Speaker 2
So currently Craft Hynes pre-vis role as a Tyson from a client standpoint and then numerous roles on the vendor side. So definitely I cringe as I say, 15 plus years. It feels like it's only been two, but I definitely been around the block here, which is which is great as far as, you know, learning all the tips, tricks and continued learning from the folks that have been kind of mentors in the space.
00;01;42;17 - 00;01;46;21
Speaker 1
Nice. And what is it like working at Kraft right now? Like, what do you like about it?
00;01;47;17 - 00;02;09;21
Speaker 2
Oh, goodness. It's amazing, right? It's a company that's walking the talk. Right. It's it's it's had some quirks in the in the past couple of years. But I think the bearings have been have been laid out and teams have really kind of backed the mantra of consumer centric or consumer obsessed in our terminology. Of where we want it to be and where we want to go.
00;02;10;06 - 00;02;31;17
Speaker 2
I think taking a step back from yes, there are financials and KPIs that we need to hit on the day we are on the line. But as a as an or where do we want to think about and how do we want to transform solving problems for consumers? Right. There are the guiding light into how we innovate, how we do our day to day.
00;02;32;04 - 00;02;56;20
Speaker 2
And what's been great about the insights team under Jacki's leadership has been really I know being on the forefront of that change. Right, of being if if we are consumer obsessed, starting from the insights team that has that consumer voice through and through, it's enabled us to to not only partner with our teams, but have a seat at the table in a meaningful way, where that mantra is laid out through every level of the organization.
00;02;57;05 - 00;03;18;12
Speaker 2
All the way to the CEO. We're talking about the consumer. And doing things for the consumer is in our DNA. And I think that this aspect of, you know, OK, to fail it's great. You kind of hear it through through our conversation today, but I think it's definitely a key theme and try something different, try something new. To get that aspect going.
00;03;18;12 - 00;03;34;06
Speaker 2
And I think with Kraft Heinz, we really have that that mantra. You feel it, right? If some people say it here, you actually feel it a go try some. If if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But at least we tried. And if it does work, goodness gracious. That could be a huge bet for us, too, to lean into.
00;03;35;12 - 00;04;00;16
Speaker 1
That's pretty amazing. Because I'm excited to learn a little bit more about that. You know, it's OK to fail or, you know, there's emphasis on trying new things because I imagine that at such a huge company that's really challenging to implement. I mean, I've spent my career in startups and often that's just kind of like table stakes because you really don't know what you're doing necessarily.
00;04;00;16 - 00;04;14;12
Speaker 1
You're trying lots of different things, experimenting, but it's pretty cool to see such a huge company like long standing, well-known brand say, you know what? We really need to lean into trying and being OK with failing.
00;04;15;13 - 00;04;37;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. This is aspect of like being an enabler versus a barrier to, to to research, to to insights, to strategy. Because I think in, in prior ways in right. It's always you have to have this metric or you have to look at it very black and white. And there is a lot of gray. I think the art and science of what we do is is is everywhere.
00;04;37;28 - 00;04;57;03
Speaker 2
But it's how much art and how much science do we need to dabble. But also taking a step back and seeing what are we trying to learn. Is there a more efficient way and is there more creative way and is there a way in that gives us another aspect of the question that we never thought through and actually even talk through some of the questions that go into the research.
00;04;57;03 - 00;05;13;22
Speaker 2
Right. It's having that dialog with our partners on a daily basis of yes, here is your question, but what is that question? Behind that question, that getting an answer to that or getting more insight into that can help optimize or kind of lead us to the Promised Land faster.
00;05;15;06 - 00;05;43;19
Speaker 1
And does that does that usually mean experimenting with new tools or like new sources of data? I'm trying to put it more tangibly. Like as someone who works in marketing, is it, you know, looking outside of the vendors that you're normally working with? Or getting really creative with the types of inputs you're working with? I'm just really curious about what that kind of mantra actually means in practice.
00;05;44;06 - 00;06;03;05
Speaker 2
I love it. Yeah, I think it's all of the above, right? It's it's sometimes looking at what was traditional or tried and true or just that's the way we did it and taking a step back and saying, you know, what is it the way we did it? Are these benchmarks appropriate? Is this still, you know, need it and not being afraid to step away right there?
00;06;03;09 - 00;06;26;28
Speaker 2
There are some aspects of brand health tracking that Kraft Hines just stepped away from and said, listen, there are different avenues that we can approach to get some insights. Let's go let's go see if we can. And here two years later, they're still without it, right? So there are aspects of, yes, it's a cost, but there's also other aspects of like, hey, we actually took that money, put it elsewhere to get more value through other means.
00;06;27;06 - 00;06;46;23
Speaker 2
And we're still able to get some of the KPIs from a brand health tracking standpoint through different either vendors or inputs. So I think it's definitely an evolutionary model of thinking about, you know, maybe it's a test on test. So something that you've done always but try to meet vendor new methodology to see if it would get you a similar output.
00;06;47;07 - 00;07;26;02
Speaker 2
Right. All of a sudden, like partner with you guys on kind of the concept testing aspect, I us to look at you differently, right? But also look at output definitely versus the tried and true that's been ingrained in our DNA for years. So that experimentation of, you know, it's OK if it didn't work, at least we tried it and not fearing right of like oh my God, I'm going to get a bad review because I tried a vendor and it didn't pan out because I think the upside is so large pun intended there with your with your outside of of of trying something different that does pay off.
00;07;26;21 - 00;07;53;17
Speaker 2
All of a sudden you've you of course, corrected something that wasn't working in my mind that cost save it might be as inefficient you said it might be just different ways of optimize whatever that value add from what we tried and and it worked I think it's a mess right so yes you might have a couple projects that didn't pan out but that one that did I think is pivotal in our growth not only as an organization but as a as a kind of, you know, an insights team, if you will.
00;07;54;02 - 00;08;23;05
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I kind of buried the lead here, but when we initially talked about jumping on a podcast episode together, we talked a little bit about kind of what consumer insights or like human insights, you know, understanding humans essentially what that role might look like in consumer businesses or any business, I guess, long term. And we talked about you know, is it is an insights function.
00;08;23;05 - 00;08;45;18
Speaker 1
Is that going to become irrelevant in the long term? Like what does it actually mean to get to value within that space? And I think the experimental version that you're talking about, I'm sure plays a huge role in providing new value as an insights leader. What else do you think kind of what does that mean right now as an insights leader in 20, 22 to provide value?
00;08;46;12 - 00;09;09;19
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, I think that's a that's a fantastic way of looking at it. And you know, not to throw buzzwords at you or nuggets, but I think that they're all kind of interrelated as far as almost like gut building for, for us and for the brand. But it's aspects around empathy, right? Like we are not our consumer. And sometimes getting that voice of the consumer and providing guidance into whatever we're doing right is a day to day strategy.
00;09;09;19 - 00;09;44;11
Speaker 2
Is it one year out, three years out, five years out? Having that that conversation, that idea sparked from from the consumer right ability to to bring things forward, to kick around. I think the insights function itself is provides guardrails, be it innovation or otherwise. But knowing the consumer through and through were able to have that a more meaningful conversation with brand to say hey here's how consumers interact or might interact if we do X, Y, Z, and a lot of it is today we know the the how, what and when.
00;09;44;19 - 00;10;10;08
Speaker 2
Right. And as a function we're always trying to push Y because it's those underlying behaviors fueled with attitude, et cetera, that actually make consumers, you know, act. So it's our job to kind of peer peel back that onion and better understand what's going on and why it's going on so we can then pull those levers accordingly from our model to, you know, to buy something off shelf.
00;10;10;09 - 00;10;32;04
Speaker 2
Right. Or see us in a more meaningful way out in market. So again, that aspect of being the enabler is key here, right? Because in in many functions, it's easy to just to say, hey, you didn't meet this benchmark, this things are done and craft Hines has really been able to push through and say, you know, what made it dud?
00;10;32;10 - 00;10;56;06
Speaker 2
Is it salvageable? Right. How do we how do we take these spark ideas that are very primitive and kind of devolve them in a way that's meaningful to the consumer? So we're not putting ideas off too soon. And do they have legs? Is is it a go and grow? Right. Like, do we do a mini mini launch or a food truck or whatever else just to gauge consumer interest?
00;10;56;17 - 00;11;02;19
Speaker 2
Because some ideas need a little nurturing before a metric can just say, hey, you didn't meet this API score, it's done.
00;11;04;06 - 00;11;05;07
Speaker 1
It's a pie score.
00;11;06;13 - 00;11;06;27
Speaker 2
Purchased.
00;11;07;13 - 00;11;07;22
Speaker 1
Oh.
00;11;08;25 - 00;11;31;25
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're we're we're the amount of benchmarks that we we interplay with their tons, and that's OK, right? Like they keep us honest as far as like can this launch or not. But I think there's more to that score. On the front end. Right. What what could be involved in a way that that that could help it sustain?
00;11;32;05 - 00;11;49;04
Speaker 2
Right. So some new to the world of disruptive innovations might not have a benchmark to compare against. Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea. You need to spend X million to teach me what this is because now all of a sudden my behavior needs to shift because, hey, I didn't have a fax machine. I didn't have a right. You know what I mean?
00;11;49;04 - 00;12;06;24
Speaker 2
Like, these things that we take for granted today came through and disrupted industries in a way that was whoa! That's a learning curve, right? I went from a typewriter to now a computer. That's it. That's a big step. What do all these buttons do? So sometimes we we take that for granted as well. It just it's just an air fryer.
00;12;07;01 - 00;12;22;03
Speaker 2
We had incidents of air fires. You know, they're not like ovens at the moment. Right now, not all of a consumer has it. Is that meaningful? How do we evolve the proposition to to be applicable, those that might not have it and those that do? How do we make it useful?
00;12;23;02 - 00;12;59;24
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's really interesting. Actually. I mean, I'm just I'm thinking about how you said benchmarks in whatever form, you know, whatever, whatever it is that you're testing or whatever kind of research you're doing, they kind of keep you honest, which is great. But you don't want to be handcuffed by them. And I guess when you think about how and I'm not suggesting that you are a craft, I just mean you wouldn't want with new innovations to end up in a situation where you're like, well, we can't launch this because it didn't sort of meet up to the preexisting benchmarking framework that we usually that we usually use.
00;12;59;25 - 00;13;04;18
Speaker 1
Or is there talk of kind of adapting that for new for new innovations?
00;13;05;24 - 00;13;28;04
Speaker 2
100%. And in even from a KPI from a marketing standpoint, right? Yeah. Once you launch, you can't hold something that's been in market for ten years, for 15 years to the same standards as far as efficiency is like at a plant, right? Sometimes a new innovation. There are a couple bumps in the road, be it from production to just even, you know, distribution.
00;13;28;21 - 00;13;50;05
Speaker 2
So there needs to be a little leeway not only from a from a launch standpoint but also from a testing standpoint. How do we nurture these things? And talk to consumers and refine, be it, you know, prospecting or other aspects of getting products in front of consumers to to really kick the tires on it before reading it on a page in a three D or a kind of hand-drawn image.
00;13;50;14 - 00;14;10;23
Speaker 2
Consumers needed need to also need a little help there, as do we. Right? It's like, oh, this would be cool if it was in the microwave. Oh, great. We didn't we weren't going to put it in the microwave. How can we? Right. So it's a it's a fast evolve. So by the time we get to to what we feel is logical, we've already vetted it and kind of adapted it in a way that's meaningful.
00;14;10;29 - 00;14;34;26
Speaker 2
And I think that the big component there is also time, right? So there are new tools that are allowing us to to run faster. So I know Agile is, is kind of a buzzword these days, but that ability to kind of streamline processes where they can suggest, OK, I might be fast, but there are other aspects of just again, efficiencies of thinking through questions you're going to get in front of consumers via Sprint, et cetera.
00;14;35;10 - 00;14;58;20
Speaker 2
That time to commercial position gets cut down. Where we were looking at three to five years, all of a sudden might be months, depending on how close and the proposition is. So I think that ability to to take a step back and you can have very focused groups on certain things that we want to assess and kind of evolve has has made that process much more streamlined.
00;14;59;29 - 00;15;31;10
Speaker 1
Really cool. So we've talked about, you know, how there is an openness or a willingness to kind of evolve things. And we've talked about what providing value means as an insights leader. Especially for you at Kraft. You know, this idea of enabling people to better understand the consumer that they're serving. What kind of we think about the flip side a little bit like what kind of keeps you up at night in regards to consumer insights?
00;15;31;10 - 00;15;47;09
Speaker 1
I'm sure there's a lot of things that are very stressful about your role but are there a few things that you kind of think about in terms of, you know, what what is this going to look like in five to ten years? Or how is this specific thing going to impact my work.
00;15;48;05 - 00;16;06;01
Speaker 2
100% and always have a notebook and pen next to it next year, but because I'm with it, keep you up at night, but you need to write it down because otherwise you'll forget when you wake up. But no, that would push here. And I think it's it's the what are we doing? Why are we doing it aspect? Right.
00;16;06;01 - 00;16;26;04
Speaker 2
So traditionally there are, you know, phased approaches or learning plans that have X amount of steps in them. And it's really taking a step back and said Do we need all these steps? Like where where can we take out a process and add something a little more efficient, you know, be it quickness is was just getting benchtop samples to to consumers.
00;16;26;04 - 00;16;46;20
Speaker 2
Right so it's this aspect of do we need it or not? Where can we lean in and where is the risk? Because I think the risk is the biggest factor in decision making process here. But if the risk is huge, if it's the cap X amount or insane amount of comms, we want to make sure that things are more vetted than they aren't being buttoned up.
00;16;46;20 - 00;17;09;02
Speaker 2
And building that got to a T might help. It might not be 100% right. But it's still more than a very small launch, very small brand. We might just go ahead. It might go do a soft launch and kind of assess how it's doing in market. Right. So it's did those aspects of every learning plan that comes through my desk really pushing back and say, is this needed or not?
00;17;09;13 - 00;17;36;08
Speaker 2
And if not, what can we utilize those funds elsewhere? Or have we done that research previously? Another pillar within the transformation here is is democratizing research that we've done already. Right making it accessible in seconds versus having to scour old folders for hours. And you're able to pull up things like, hey, have we ever looked at vinegar and plateaus versus glass bottles for Heinz?
00;17;36;20 - 00;17;53;04
Speaker 2
Yes. What we had and it was only a few years old, and it's those things that enable us to say, you know what? Pause. I know there's a new team and there's a new a lot of newness here. Have we done anything previously for us to feel good about and fill that gap or. Oh, man, I feel really uncomfortable.
00;17;53;04 - 00;17;57;14
Speaker 2
What can we do and get some insights before we press go?
00;17;59;03 - 00;18;29;18
Speaker 1
Nice. Yeah, I mean, I think Agile and democratize democratization, I can say the word correctly, are two big buzzwords, but for good reason. And it sounds like you guys have a lot on your plate and in terms of kind of transforming what you're already doing really well and and making it available to other people around your organization, are are people just out of curiosity, are people like your stakeholders, like marketers and brand managers, anyone working in innovation?
00;18;29;18 - 00;18;33;06
Speaker 1
Like are they kind of chomping at the bit to have more access to the stuff?
00;18;34;10 - 00;18;56;04
Speaker 2
Why don't 2% and it's in pilot phase at the moment but should be rolled out within the next call. It six plus months. But yeah, like there's a lot of historical content that's applicable, right? Like if I start with a solid base and you know what some of these questions had been asked before, what do we need to then ask to continue moving forward?
00;18;56;16 - 00;19;17;07
Speaker 2
So it's always I think again, it's become the mantra lately as well as where are we going? Why are we getting there? How will we get there? So I'm with you. Having access to all information that's applicable is helpful, but it's meaningful information. I think more than anything, the tool allows us to ask questions as if you were asking a colleague.
00;19;17;16 - 00;19;42;20
Speaker 2
So it's less about what trends do we have on mayonnaise? And more about what kind of mayonnaise do millennials eat? And all of a sudden I'm like, OK, great, I have an answer there. What else do I need answers around to? Help you build my proposition? So it's definitely ever evolving as far as having access to information. But to your point earlier it's it's even that the bigger data that's up there.
00;19;43;02 - 00;20;02;11
Speaker 2
So if you if you looked historically, right, it was just get as much information as I can. You know, I might not need use it today, but I'll use it tomorrow and moving forward, it's now I have all this information. How do we source it or assess it in a way that's meaningful today to help predict tomorrow? So it's one of those things, right?
00;20;02;11 - 00;20;21;08
Speaker 2
It's like I'm not in the prediction business, but I'm in the prediction business. We're saying that big data that we have allows us to, you know, not predict perfectly. And we don't have a magic eight ball that we can just kind of shake and see what comes up as an answer. But we do have aspects of here what where it might go.
00;20;21;08 - 00;20;49;20
Speaker 2
Here's how consumers might react and are able to build plans accordingly to kind of bet that out. So it's definitely a new era within insights as far as not only access to data, but now connection to data, because previously if you look at it through the different kind of evolutionary phases of research, we're definitely in this like, oh, wow, we do have a lot and we've had a lot time how does it all talk to one another?
00;20;49;29 - 00;21;13;25
Speaker 2
And I think A.I. and other aspects around connectivity, the database management, et cetera, have allowed us to tap into information in a much more meaningful way. It's still missing some of the aspects of why, unless it was already graphed. But you'll get some of the what ends in a much more granular and kind of deeper view than you have in the past.
00;21;14;26 - 00;21;45;26
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's like it's so I have the opportunity to talk to a lot of people that work in insights for consumer brands. And what you're talking about isn't new. I think, though, the lens through which you're viewing it is, is really interesting. And I think it also aligns with one of the conversations. I think we had a dinner or maybe in the when we were chatting prior to the interview, but this idea of like insights used to be a lot more focused on the who and what.
00;21;45;28 - 00;22;11;21
Speaker 1
I think it is. And now it's really trying to tap into that Y and I guess democratizing some of the access to the research you guys have already run or different data sources that you already have access to, democratizing that and making it accessible to people. That's it. Outside of insights means that your team can focus a lot more on the Y and a lot more on what comes next.
00;22;11;21 - 00;22;13;06
Speaker 1
What would you agree with that?
00;22;14;08 - 00;22;41;11
Speaker 2
100%. If you think about things in the world that provide inputs to something, beat your phone in your pocket, knowing your geolocation or what you know, stories you went to or what apps you browsed. And it's this interconnected interconnectivity across channels, across businesses that's become in the data itself is worth a lot, right? There's meaningful, rich context there into how and why people operate.
00;22;41;29 - 00;23;07;23
Speaker 2
And I think the long run is is tapping into that in a more meaningful way. So while today your iWatch could tell you, you know, how healthy or active you are to a point, right. In the future, it might actually predict a potential stroke coming your way or a heart attack based on your diet. Right. This interconnectivity allows us to tap into, I don't know, call it customizable behavior of who you are, like what's important to you?
00;23;08;04 - 00;23;47;10
Speaker 2
And while you're in a location, hey, I should go get that that smoothie for $0.50 off because today, you know what it wasn't a great morning. I had my egg, eggs and bacon and things that were were not privy to my diet. But I should make that pivot and thanks for that nudge and that and that discount. So it's that ability to to action off of the data that I think is that is kind of that next pillar because right now while we're able to understand a lot of it is looking back, right here's what happened and the future is more of here's how I could foresee certain aspect that showcase what you might do
00;23;47;19 - 00;23;57;13
Speaker 2
and why you might do it. And how do I intervene in your decision in a way that's meaningful to my business or two to my strategy to buy my product versus someone else.
00;23;58;20 - 00;24;07;19
Speaker 1
So what you're saying is that essentially the future of insights is going to be a much better version of my Apple Watch telling me to stand up every.
00;24;07;25 - 00;24;17;26
Speaker 2
45 exactly. Exactly. Hopefully, you know, in a more streamlined way where it's just like, Oh, yeah, why wouldn't I should do these things?
00;24;18;03 - 00;24;18;20
Speaker 1
Exactly.
00;24;19;24 - 00;24;20;14
Speaker 2
A lot more. Now.
00;24;22;07 - 00;24;33;07
Speaker 1
That is one of the most irritating aspects of an Apple Watch, and I need it like an absolute. My chiropractor will thank me, but I'm like, Man, stop telling me to stand up.
00;24;35;00 - 00;25;01;20
Speaker 2
And no, no, it's, it's that, it's that real time moment, right? Like, if I could intervene when it's happening versus, oh, we should have intervened, it just that the speed to commercialization or even decision making becomes quick. It becomes right now. Yeah. Can we do it in the future? So it's definitely an amazing way in and I don't know, something to be happy about, right?
00;25;01;20 - 00;25;22;09
Speaker 2
Like we're, we're on that evolutionary chain of how do we partner with the right vendors to get some of that information now via, you know, brain scans to really understand the what and the where and the why, but just better understanding how consumers make decisions subconsciously. Right? So the things that consumers tell us aren't always what they do, right?
00;25;22;10 - 00;25;44;00
Speaker 2
Like you'll talk to some folks, you're like, I only buy branded products and then they open up their pantry and it's a bunch of private label. Yeah. So it's honing in on what what really drives consumers and how can we extract that in a meaningful way and then act on it. I think it's that push and pull of what our job is allowing us to bring to the table.
00;25;45;14 - 00;26;06;14
Speaker 1
I mean, that's this is a perfect lead in to what I wanted to talk about next, because when you talk about the types of vendors that you would want to work with, I'm just thinking of how your team might be structured now. And I don't know if it's structured to handle all the types of inputs that you'd be looking at.
00;26;06;14 - 00;26;20;27
Speaker 1
So really trying to understand consumer behavior. Like when you think about structuring a team in the future, even in like a couple of years, is it different in the way that you structure a team now? Like talk to me about the thought process around that.
00;26;22;08 - 00;26;50;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think at a foundational level, very similar, but it's just how you approach certain things, right? So aspects of curiosity, that's something new and insights, but it's that drive for right, of not always having that answer and finding out where one can get an answer aspect of trying new things, right? Like if, if you say you could only use a vendor X forever there, you're like, Great, I will use them and I have my, my, my process and everything is set up.
00;26;50;18 - 00;27;10;19
Speaker 2
But it's, it, it's fun kicking the tires of saying, you know, like, yeah, that works. Is there something different? Is there something new that I can try that might be better, might not be better, but it's worth that try, right? Otherwise it kind of you stagnate as you see the consumer journey and kind of behavior and market evolve.
00;27;10;29 - 00;27;34;26
Speaker 2
I think our tools need to do the same, but also from the people coming in, I think I read something that was around as new folks come into your research, they just have a different purview to it than folks that have been here for 20 plus years. And we need to learn from one another, right? There are new tools, there's new avenues, there's new influencers out there that help us evolve on how we interact with our consumers.
00;27;35;08 - 00;27;53;04
Speaker 2
So it's one of those things that, hey, it's a Kumbaya moment, right? I like that there is no perfect way of doing it, but let's find out why we do it, how we do it and do it better. That can get us to that next level. Otherwise, you know, you just kind of evolve out although that's an old way of thinking.
00;27;53;04 - 00;27;58;28
Speaker 2
See you later. And this new way of thinking is the new shiny object. I think there's there's a little bit of both camps versus just one.
00;28;00;11 - 00;28;28;08
Speaker 1
Very cool we're almost out of time here. I did want to talk about ask you a couple I don't know. I think challenging challenging questions. So just for fun, if we found out in ten years, you know, the department of Insights or the Insights Business Unit within a consumer business, it didn't exist anymore, who do you think would kind of subsume it?
00;28;28;08 - 00;28;29;27
Speaker 1
Like which department would it live in?
00;28;31;08 - 00;28;54;25
Speaker 2
Oh, great question. You know, every every department should have some aspect of it, right? If you don't have the consumer embedded across the org, you have a huge blind spot of what you're doing and why you're doing it. But I think that the bigger owner there probably would be be strategy of just really focusing on the where in the why and the what.
00;28;55;17 - 00;29;13;08
Speaker 2
But I'm with you. It's like it's a push of like even here, if you're CEO is a consumer centric, what are we here for? Right. We're just here for the sake of the shareholders. I think that's that's shortsighted, especially if you're looking to grow in the future. So it needs to be embedded in the company's DNA from the top all the way to the bottom.
00;29;14;14 - 00;29;28;25
Speaker 1
Yeah, I. I hear you. And then finally, is there anything you would want to leave the listeners with? So any required reading to be great at being consumer centric or anything that's inspired you as an insights leader?
00;29;29;19 - 00;29;48;05
Speaker 2
I love it. Yes. I've got a mantra and a book because, you know, and I have another one on the list, the mantra, perfection shouldn't be the enemy of progress. Right? Sometimes we we get stuck in the road of like, man, I need to get it to 100%, right? Or else and sometimes 80%. What a gotcha. Just like right.
00;29;48;05 - 00;30;20;22
Speaker 2
So let's not delay some of our output or our conversations just because we're not 100% there. That's where the conversations of. All right. And if you're, if you're still not there, let's get there. But having that conversation sooner than later will help us get to the Promised Land that much faster. And then as far as books, it's called measure what matters by John door hear it it's an interesting take on it again not a new concept by any means, but an interesting way to set goals that are not always merit focused.
00;30;20;23 - 00;30;58;02
Speaker 2
Right? Like let's go talk to X customer, let's go try X amount of vendors or initiatives. And it the onus is is really delivering but not always at 100%. Right? Like it tries to make you uncomfortable in ways that are meaningful to the organization and helped a lot of people come together to get you there. But I don't know it's worked for a lot of Silicon Valley, I think Google etc that have picked it up after it was first rolled out in some of the first computer chip manufacturers.
00;30;58;12 - 00;31;02;17
Speaker 2
Great read take a peek. It'll definitely help you set goals in in a different manner.
00;31;03;23 - 00;31;12;25
Speaker 1
I love it. All right. You're such a legend. Thank you for joining us today. I hope you had fun. This was great. And I will talk to you soon.
00;31;13;23 - 00;31;22;24
Speaker 2
Love it. Thank you for having me. Beyond Beyond Fun. As you put it. I love it. Good stuff. Look forward to the next one. I feel like.