Building Capacity in Accounting Firms

Show Notes

Ever wondered how to navigate the changing landscape of tax accounting and stay ahead of the curve? Kane Polokoff, Principal, Client Advisory Services Practice Leader at CohnReznick LLP, joins the podcast today as we unravel fascinating insights that will set you apart in your firm. We'll illuminate why imaginative hiring strategies are crucial, how to meet client expectations, and why soft skills are as vital as advisory services in shaping a future-ready industry. Together with Kane, we look at how firms can effectively build capacity to meet the demands of clients, the pivotal role of recruiting and training, and the art of projecting future workloads. As we wrap up our explorative chat with Kane, we delve into the value of vertical expertise and the significance of offering advice that goes beyond the transactional level. Get ready to be enlightened, challenged, and inspired.

What is AccounTrends: The tax and accounting thought leadership podcast?

A bi-weekly podcast bringing you insights and advice from the accounting & tax industry's top experts and thought leaders. Learn more at IntuitAccountants.com/AccountTrends

Speaker 1: Welcome to Account
Trends everybody. I'm Jason

Stein with Intuit Accountants.
My co-host, david Bernstein, and

I are excited to be with you
every couple of weeks to share

the latest news, interesting
perspectives and hottest trends

in the tax accounting world.
We'll have special guests on the

show to help break these trends
down and give you food for

thought as you find new ways to
deliver for your clients. Most

importantly, we plan on having
some fun while doing it. Welcome

, all right. Welcome back to
Account Trends everybody. Your

host, jason Stein, here, and
with me, as always, mr Bernstein

, how are you today?

Speaker 2: I'm doing wonderful
today. I just want to check up

on you. I think today's guest
has a dog similar to your dog. I

know what kind of dog do you
have?

Speaker 1: You surprised me. So
we both have a Cabapoo. A

Cabapoo is a King Charles
Cavalier mixed with poodle. And

there's a funny story behind
that, because I did not want a

dog. I like dogs but I don't
want the responsibility of a dog

. My wife and kids worked me for
years and finally, when the

pandemic hit, they were like
please, please, can we get a dog

? I'm like, all right, we're
going to get a dog, but we're

going to get a specific breed,
not just some random dog,

because I need the dog to have
certain qualities. So I wanted a

dog that wasn't going to be
barky, wasn't going to be

shedding a lot. I didn't want a
big, huge dog. My wife wanted it

to be cuddly and lapdog-ish,
and so then we went and we did

the research. And I'm not a
super hyper, I'm not going to

get out there and go running and
stuff kind of guy, I'm not

super active. So I didn't want a
dog that was going to require

that kind of attention either.
So we did some research and we

landed on King Charles Cavaliers
, like the royal lap dogs right,

that's where they come from and
then Poodle being very smart

and hyperallergenic Not that we
had to worry about

hyperallergenic, but I just
wanted to have a dog, that was

so we get the dog. Beginning of
the pandemic, by the way. So

she's a COVID puppy is what we
call her. She barks at the

slightest sound within a 10-mile
distance. Thankfully she's not

destructive anymore, but as a
puppy she was but super smart,

but sometimes too smart for her
own good, which Poodles can't

tend to be. So it's funny. I
went and researched breeds that

I wanted because I wanted
certain qualities and actually

turned out that a lot of those
qualities I didn't end up

getting in my dog, but we love
her none the same.

Speaker 2: I've had a lot of
dogs in my lifetime, but now I'm

the millennial in the baby
boomers body. I don't want to be

restricted at home. So no pets,
just pickleable.

Speaker 1: But wait a second, I
was going to ask.

Speaker 2: How does the dog get
along with all your chickens?

Speaker 1: They don't interact
as a matter of fact. That's a

really cool question that you
asked, because when we'd have

the we first got the chickens,
they were in like a tote in the

garage with us and so they
needed to be indoors and so the

dog was very interested in them,
but it was a weird interest.

She's like I don't know if I
should eat them or play with

them. And so you hear about
people that have chickens, and

sometimes a lot of times they
live on property to have big

dogs, and I know we had our
contractor who was working on

our renovations would tell us
about how once in a while,

chickens would get out and land
in the dog pan and didn't end

well for the chicken.

Speaker 2: So it happens but,
we'll leave the chickens alone,

now that we know your dog is the
same dog as our guest today,

kane Pollakoff.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 2: You know, I think
we're going to hear some great

things from him because he works
for let's call it a large firm,

even though it's not in the top
four, it's up there and I think

he's going to give us some
great insight if it goes into

capacity, staffing and what's
your favorite word niches or

industries, what it calls. So I
think everyone who's going to

listen today they're going to
get some practical examples of

really and we didn't talk about
advisory services, but he

brought out some points that you
want to help the client and

it's not about the financial
statements. It's like we were

talking about the restaurant
industry. I have a restaurant, I

have a profit, but if you can
help them succeed, you want to

know what's the average ticket
and what's the average check.

And then you brought out talking
to the employees to figure out

a way the accountant can say,
hey, how do you increase your

average check? And you said
bring the employees together,

let them figure that out. And
that was a great example.

Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil
it too much, but I love the

conversation with Kane here,
where we really get into the

practical of how we think about
talent and staffing, from hiring

all the way through to how they
execute, what the expectations

are, and we touch more on why do
we keep saying that it doesn't

have to be accountants all the
time that we're staffing and I

use the word accountant loosely
because when we think of

accountant it's data person
doing transactional work and

while that's still going to be
needed, we really want to think

about our talent in our firms in
completely different and new

ways. In addition to that,
because of everything we've been

talking about around advisory
and all the expectation that

clients have of firms now and
into the future. So I'm excited.

Speaker 2: I'm excited too. Are
we ready for it?

Speaker 1: Let's do it so, David
. I always introduce our guests.

Why don't you take this one?

Speaker 2: Okay, I'm looking
forward to this. I'm going to do

a long introduction. Today we
have Kane Polakoff with us. He's

the principal client advisory
services practice leader for a

very large firm, kohn Resnick,
and he's also on the board of

the information technology
alliance, ita, which is another

great organization that a lot of
firms join. In addition, and

you probably don't know this,
he's on the Intuit Large Firm

Advisory Committee and I think
that's QuickBooks mainly, and

he's also on the billcom
advisory council. So he is up to

date with technology. So, kane,
how about telling us a little

bit about your background and
what you're doing?

Speaker 3: All right. Well,
thanks, david and Jason. The

first of all, I live in that
lovely city of Detroit, michigan

, so I don't know if a lot of
you have come out and visited.

Actually, the weather's been
great here. I have just a little

bit of background. I've got
about 28 years of experience in

consulting and accounting work
and specifically CAS. I have had

the luxury of being on a BPO
business process outsourcing

firm as the chief operating
officer, have run organizations

and over the last five years
I've been really focusing on

client advisory services, where
I was at a previous large firm

where I started the practice
from scratch and recently now

I'm at Cohen Resnick, as you
guys indicated, and really

building out the practice,
looking at from a technology

perspective as well as people
and process. So it's been fun.

I've had experience on the sales
side operational when you look

at optimization. So I've had a
lot of different experience over

my career and happy to share it
as much as I can with you guys

today.

Speaker 2: We appreciate that.
Jason, you want to take the

first question today?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm super
excited to have you here with

all your experience consulting
and then being a part of Cohen

Resnick and having that
practical experience and dealing

with all the stuff that we talk
about on the show that's

happening in the accounting
profession and one of those.

Let's dive right into that. One
of the things that I think is on

everybody's mind is we keep
hearing about the capacity

conversation and that's
affecting firms of all sizes. So

what do you think about that
whole conversation? What does it

really mean?

Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a
great question because capacity,

especially over the last four
or five years, has been a big

challenge for a lot of the firms
and even specifically I've

encountered If you think about
COVID and everything that's

happened specifically for CAS,
the CAS industry and providing

outsourced accounting there's
just been a tremendous demand

for our services, to the extent
that you have to really build

the capacity to be able to take
on the work. I mean, during the

pandemic there were
opportunities left and right

where the prospects were
reaching out to us and asking

how we could help them and how
we can support them. And in

order to do that, you have to
have capacity to do that. And

it's not just at the high level,
it's at all levels. So when you

think about it from an
associate to a consultant, to a

manager, senior manager and vice
versa and really the question

is how do you build that
capacity and how do you project

what your pipeline is gonna be
or when it's gonna hit? And

that's a tough situation because
you gotta figure out the

chicken versus the egg. Do you
build a bunch of capacity now

and then wait for the work to
come, or do you have the work

come and then you build your
capacity and in most

organizations at least three,
four years ago, wanted the work

to come in to build that
capacity. But the hard thing

about CAS is normally when you
get an opportunity clients need

help, like right away. You can't
wait three months or you can't

wait five months for that work
to come, so you have to really

move. What I ended up doing was
I built my capacity first, so I

looked at hiring a bunch of
individuals, bring them on board

, getting them trained Cause it
does in some cases, depending on

the technology, can take four
to six weeks to get them

certified and trained on the
different technology and the

processes that you have. And
what I did which was great and I

recommend that for others was
we had dedicated recruiters that

are working for us internally
that were constantly looking at

resumes, interviewing. I spent a
good portion of my first couple

of years at my last firm just
interviewing and talking to

individuals and bringing them on
, and luckily that worked out,

because there was such a demand
that by the time we brought

people on, we trained them and
got them ready, there was

already work for them, so that
worked out very well. Now fast

forward to where we are today.
The challenge is how do you

generate the demand in the
marketplace, and that's not very

difficult. As I see here at
Coen Resnick, we continually

have opportunities. Most of
these opportunities are a lot

larger. So we have some clients
that we may need to provide 10

resources, others five or six.
So you really have to build a

finance and accounting
department for our clients per

se. So you have to look at
controller level down to the

associates. So we've kind of
taken the same model a little

bit different, here, where we
have we've built a very strong

leadership group here, so having
different verticals. So what we

did is we hired based on five
different verticals that have

that experience at the
controllership later level,

which was important, and then
also built the capacity offshore

, which from a transactional
level to support that, that was

a huge benefit. And then
leveraging the technology to

automate and standardize across
our practice, and that made it

easier to build our capacity but
also allows our capacity to be

more flexible, to be
cross-trained or up-skilled,

depending on what the
opportunities were. But we

continue to build our capacity
and what we're trying to be

smarter about is when we want to
take on these accounts too,

because the lesson you want to
do is take on an account and

you're not prepared to do that.
So we have discussions during

the sales cycle kind of
positioning and looking at

scheduling ahead of time. So by
the time a client's ready to

move forward with us, we have
capacity for that too. Plus, we

also built in when you look at
attrition and other ways to

build that additional capacity
to be able to support that. So

that's when I look at capacity.
That is one of the most

important factors when you run
an operation, which we do, to be

able to execute and support our
clients going forward.

Speaker 1: And you're talking
about capacity at a high level,

but what I'm gathering is it's
even just capacity to meet

essential services like tax prep
and bookkeeping and that kind

of thing, not just capacity to
have additional services like

advisory right.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think
you look at it from my team

there's really three things that
we do. We do the back office

accounting work. That could be
from transaction all the way up

to CFO. So there could be cases
where a client loses a CFO or a

controller and we have to jump
in and support that as an aspect

. The second option could be a
client that needs to make a

change on the technology side.
So they have outdated systems,

they're no longer being
supported, they have manual

processes and they're looking
for a tech stack that can help

improve. So we have to have
resources that have knowledge

and the technology that are able
to implement the solution and

provide that. And third, we have
the standardization of the

documentation. So a lot of our
clients do not have SOPs or they

don't have any of that in place
. So we actually have to have

people that are understanding
kind of how they're set up and

help document, making sure
there's separation of duties,

making sure there's efficiencies
in place. So every client's a

little bit different, but we
have to have capacity in that

side. And then also to your
point, whether it's tax prep or

other services that are
complementary to what we provide

in our practice, they also need
to be able to build up and have

that capacity to support that
Jason.

Speaker 2: Let me ask you a
question. We keep using the word

capacity. Are accounting firms
changing? Is the latest trend in

CPA firms to hire non-CPAs to
fit different roles, to really

be the accounting department for
any size organization?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think
it's a combination of of course

you want to have the CPAs and
the strong accounting background

, but I have folks on my team
that don't have accounting

background. They're very strong
relationship managers, they're

very strong in project
management, they're very good

analytical thinkers. So if you
think about engineering or if

you think of folks like in
business and when we talk about

advisory, the aspect of sending
a financial statement is really

a deliverable. But it's not just
sending a financial statement

over the fence and just hoping
that the client understands it,

but you need to be able to
communicate with the client to

be able to talk about what it is
, look at the historical data,

but also looking at projections
out with the client and how they

can improve their operations.
So you soft skills, I'll say, is

such an important piece of the
puzzle. We can no longer hide,

you know, inner desks and just
crunchy numbers all day, because

what our push is to try to get
out there in front of our

clients. Now it's tougher, of
course, with as we're on a video

conference right now, but back
in the day we used to spend most

time in our brick and mortar of
our clients and doing that work

with them, but now a lot of
it's over video conferencing and

recordings and things like that
. So you know, I think it's

important as we kind of move in.
The trend is that clients are

expecting a lot more. The
financial statement, that's just

checking the box. It's what you
do beyond that and we have to

have the accounts that love to
have interaction with our

clients or able to problem solve
. But we can also bring in

engineers or business majors and
to be a compliment to that

service as we move forward. So
yeah, I mean, I think it comes

down to the training aspect.
That helps in that case, but

some of my best employees are
folks that don't have accounting

degrees today.

Speaker 2: No, that's what I'm
seeing across the board. You

still need the CPA and you still
need the CPA firm, but we're

providing so many services,
you're doing everything, but

you're really trying to get the
higher level service at this

point.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean
it's almost. I'm not used to the

analogy. We're an extension of
their team, but accounting is

only one aspect that they ask us
questions about. You know,

they're asking us about HR and
their payroll and they're having

challenges on this or that, and
we have to build an ecosystem,

whether it's within our firm,
that we can support that or have

individuals or partners that we
can work with to provide that

solution for our clients. And
they're expecting us to be that

quarterback to help identify who
can help them and insert as

things come up, whether it's M&A
, when you look at financial

institutions, you look at
getting money there's a lot of

different things or even looking
at strategy that's becoming

even more prevalent as they
looked at potentially

consolidate or shrink in size.
There's a lot of questions that

our clients ask and they expect
of us to either know the answer

or quickly come back with a
response to that too.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny, we
talk about full service firm

right. This is full service
right. It's not just I'm doing

all the accounting services, but
you're doing all the business

consulting services. Right, and
just being a one-stop shop for

literally everything for your
clients and their businesses,

from starting it up to selling
it off and everything in between

.

Speaker 3: Yeah, we do a lot of
startups too, so there's a lot

of cases where we're standing up
at an organization and they

have only a small number of
individuals, and the finance and

accounting side is one aspect
of that, but operationally, we

get into many different facets
of their business to help

support them, as if they only
have limited amount of employees

. We're taking the brunt of
doing a lot of that work. As an

example, there's a lot of
organizations, like in Europe

and other parts of the world,
that are opening up operations

and they rely on us to help set
them up and help drive strategy

for them, which is very
interesting, and you think about

it from a technology side too,
where they're looking for us to

evaluate where they are and
define what their tech stack is

going to be, and it may not just
only be accounting. It is well,

so it's helping to define how
that's going to work, how to

implement that and how that's
going to provide really a

backboard for our clients going
forward.

Speaker 1: Well, and I would
imagine, too, that you're not

sitting around waiting for the
clients to come ask you for

these things. These are
questions that you ask and

things that you observe and then
say here's what we think you

need, right.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think
that's the change in mindset

that we're all trying to do in
our industry, and I think it's

instead of waiting for a client
to come and say, hey, well, what

about this or what about that?
But we're trying to educate our

staffs, and not just at Coen
Residoc, but if you look at it,

I think it's industry wide, just
from my conversations with

other cast leaders. It's how do
you ask those right questions

and have those discussions with
our clients? To pride? Right To

kind of ask those certain
questions and do a lot of

listening, but they're looking
for us to become more of the

experts and if we sit around and
wait, then we'll find out that

they're going to go somewhere
else in the long term and we

really need to have those
individuals at low to think

about that and are able to drive
that. They're using the numbers

, of course, to help navigate
the waters, but you have to be

comfortable having a sometimes
difficult discussion for clients

too. Maybe some things they
don't want to hear. As an

example, yeah, it's easy to have
a conversation with somebody

when it's when things are going
great, but if if you need to

help change course or you want
to identify something that they

may not like. You got to have to
be comfortable having those

discussions as well, which is, I
think we all know, not a very

easy thing to do.

Speaker 2: Yeah, what I think
we're all saying is accountants

have to become more advisory in
what they do, but they're really

becoming business coaches and
being proactive with their

clients. The compliance work is
never going to go away, so we'll

always be doing that. But it's
all those other services and I

like the word you use. I think
of a CPA firm where there is

sole practitioner, or a large
firm like yours. If the CPA firm

is the quarterback for that
business, they move them in

every right direction.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think
that too. I mean even within our

firm you know we're a
quarterback to try to bring the

right resources. Not everybody
in my practice is a certain

expert in certain things, so we
have to go through our

organization to help bring the
right people onto the calls or

having discussions to have. And
that's part of, I think, the

synergy that a lot of the larger
firms are having. Is, how does

advisory kind of work with the
compliance side too, or vice

versa? How do we bring in the
tax group and others, depending

on the situation that comes up?
So that's a big area of bringing

awareness within the
organization of what type of

services that we have. I mean,
we have over 4,000 employees in

the US. How do you make sure you
know what? Especially if we get

into renewable energy or
different things like that,

there's certain laws and things
that you want to make sure we're

up to speed on, so we need to
bring the right resources in

place to support that, and
that's why we're building I'm

building my practice based on
vertical expertise too, so they

understand the nuances and you
don't want somebody who has no

idea of how to restaurants run
to have discussions with a

restaurant owner, as an example.
So we're trying to find those

individuals that have that
expertise that can have those

discussions with our clients
going forward.

Speaker 2: You mentioned five
verticals. I think before. Yeah,

yeah, what are the five
verticals that are most popular?

I guess if you're picking
verticals, other people aren't

too.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So
there's so many verticals that

are out there. I mean, what I
see is real estate. A good

majority of our firm is in real
estate, so that's a big area

focus, large non-for-profit
specifically. There's a lot of

need because it's hard for a lot
of these organizations to get

quality staff and even look in
the technology side. Renewable

energy is one of the biggest
growing areas I see in the space

and there's just a tremendous
amount of opportunity there.

Everybody look at hotels and
restaurants, and then we also

what we call trust. So that's
another area for managing money

and helping to ensure. So those
are the five that we have now.

We'll continue to look at other
industries which were in our

organization, but we wanted to
make sure we had the right

leadership within those five
industries and that we

identified the tech stack that's
specific for each of those

industries and we're helping our
clients. So that's the focus

that I'm putting into play to
help support our clients going

forward.

Speaker 1: It's just a ground on
the nomenclature. Do you see

the word vertical and niche as
sort of one and the same?

Speaker 3: So, yeah, I mean, so
you look at a niche market. I

mean if you look at hospitality,
there's niches within

hospitality, right. So it could
be specific to a small hotel or

a small restaurant. So I mean
we're looking for larger

multi-unit restaurants is what
we're focusing in, and the

hospitality using that as an
example. So our vertical is

hospitality. Our niche may be
multi-unit restaurant, as an

example. So, because you can, I
mean if you look at renewable

energy or if you look at
non-for-profits, you've got

schools, you've got all these
different things. So we're

trying to even break down within
that vertical what type of

focus that we want to have, so
that so we're good at where

we're good at. We can't be good
at everything, so we want to

make sure what we're good at we
can provide the right service to

our clients. Because that goes
back to the advisory side. If

you don't know what you're
talking about, how can you

advise your clients? So that's
why it's important to have those

niches and to have that
industry vertical so that we can

support our clients and help
them and provide the value that

they're looking for.

Speaker 1: You know I love this
topic. Right here I want to peel

back the layers on it some more
, because there's I feel like

there's two schools of thought
that happen as it relates to

skills and talent and
approaching verticals or niches.

You know, you ask Jeannie
Whitehouse. Right, she'll say

you don't need to be an expert
in your client's business. But

then there's this fear that
people have like, well, I don't

know this industry very well,
and so how can I, how can I

center around this vertical and
have the confidence that I can

serve it well? So how do you
think about all of that?

Speaker 3: I'll have to talk to
Jeannie again because I was with

her a couple of weeks ago and
tell her that she needs to have

some kind of vertical expertise.
But I mean, it's a good. It

depends on what level you're
looking to go. If you want to be

, I just use bookkeeping just
reconciling bank accounts, doing

transactions, creating
financial statements and then

sending them out and not
providing any advice beyond that

. That's agnostic, I mean. I
think that there's still a lot

of business out there today
where businesses or firms are

doing that, but what value do
you provide them? There are

clients out there that are not
even providing. They're getting

their only time in an accurate
financial. So that's a big plus

for them. But what happens? When
they get timely and accurate

financials? They're going to
want more than that. So I think

that you know it depends on how
far you want to go from an

advisory side and what value you
want to provide to your clients

. And I mean, if you look at
accounts payable, accounts,

receivable yeah, you could be a
horizontal and it may be not be

an expert in any vertical, but
that's on the transactional

level. But the advice is really
becoming at the control,

leadership or the CFO level and
those individuals need to be

able to understand what's what
the numbers really mean. And I

think you do need to have a
vertical expertise or having an

experience, I'll say, in those
areas if you want to provide

great value. It's just the next
level. I mean, you can probably

get by if you're agnostic, but I
think that individuals and

companies are going to get
smarter. They're going to want

to do business with firms that
have specific knowledge in

certain areas, and I think
that's where the trend is moving

towards. Being a generalist,
you can get away with that, but

what value would you be able to
provide and what are you going

to be able to charge for that?
So that's what I guess I would

challenge. You know, jeannie and
others, that they say, hey, you

can only be agnostic, but
that's why I'm being very

focused on when I was my past
firm, I was being more generic

and we were able to do the
blocking and tackling, but to do

it the next level, we had to
bring individuals in that had

that expertise.

Speaker 2: I I I'd agree with
you 100% there that you have to

be knowledgeable. Your client
knows how to run a business

because they started it and have
a password, but you need the

expertise to help them with all
the flying points I defer to you

. Jason, I know you were about
to say something.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I was
going to just clarify, you know,

like also this and we're, I
didn't mean to like beat up on

Jeannie because I love her.
She's wonderful and she gets

pushed back when she makes that
statement and it's always

interesting to see the
conversation play out. But you

know she's also coming from a
you know a firm that specializes

in wineries, right, and so you
know there is a level of

expertise that you're going to,
you're going to have when you

choose a vertical. But
everything that you just said

lines up with the studies that
we've done as well, and to it.

As we look at you know, firms
that are leading in the industry

, those that we don't see,
generalist firms, achieving the

levels of success that firms
that focus on verticals and

niches do, because of exactly
everything that you just said.

And so you know, I always
encourage firms like you don't

have to, you don't have to have
niches, you don't have to have

verticals and, by the way, don't
pick just one and focus only on

that. That's dangerous, as we
saw with COVID, right, you focus

on the hospitality industry and
the pandemic. It's your entire

client basis in trouble. So you
need to have, you know, a few

verticals, but you got to start
somewhere. Also, and a lot of

firms that are out there today,
you know, especially among the

smallest, are generalist firms
and have been for years, and so

you know, I think it's hard, and
then the whole confidence thing

plays a factor, right. So so I
was going to ask you about

skills as it relates to hiring.
So do you? How do you, how do

you go about attracting the
talent that you need in this

space? Do you go pull from,
because we already talked about

how you don't necessarily like,
just focus on people who have

accounting backgrounds, right,
case in point, these people

might come actually from those
industries. Is that an accurate

statement? And how do you go
about looking for that talent?

Do you look for that knowledge
already? Or do you bring you,

look for the skills that you're
looking for and then get, help

them get educated on the
verticals?

Speaker 3: So so it's both. So
I'll give you an example in the

renewable energy space, which
there's a lot of tax equity and

different types of nomenclature
that you have to have skills on.

What we did is we looked in the
industry itself and we were

able to identify a controller
slash CFO that had five years of

experience and she also was in
public accounting beforehand. I

mean, that's the purpose, that's
the perfect situation where

you're able to bring somebody in
that already knows how to have

a public accounting firm works
but also has that expertise and

renewable energy. That would be
one example. The other end would

be, if you find individuals
that are very analytical and

very quick in learning, that
maybe you don't bring them in at

that CFO or control level. You
bring them in as a senior or

lower level and they're able to
grow into by working with that

individual that we hired that
already have that expertise to

get that knowledge. But I think
you have to have leaders in each

of those verticals that have
that knowledge and their

responsibility is to train,
support and give the guidance.

So you have to have that
foundation in place, I think, in

order to be successful.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes
sense, cool. I'm trying to think

about like is there anything
else we need to unpack here?

David, around staffing?

Speaker 2: Well, I think he came
to sitting it on the head that

you're going to hire from
wherever. At this point in time,

they don't need to be a CPA,
they don't need to be an

accountant. Even with the
renewable energy that you're

talking about, you're hiring
people that know the business,

but not necessarily accounting,
because they're doing consulting

and coaching. I would tend to
think at this point, when

someone's doing the accounting,
they're doing the accounting

transactional. You want people
on a higher level to sell more

value. That's correct. They
understand the numbers and

they've been working in the
industry, so they know the ins

and outs of the right metrics to
look at.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when
everybody talks about key

performance indicators and
analytics and you hear those

words that are thrown around all
the time KPIs but most people

don't know really what they are
right. So I think that that's

where you hire those individuals
that have that knowledge that

could create what are the
success factors I call them that

are going to help make this
organization successful and how

are we going to measure against
that? So, having that person

that has a renewable energy or,
if you're looking at it, at

restaurant and food costs and
labor and all that, you need to

have individuals that know what
to look at and how to articulate

that. Yeah, doing the
transactions, you could hire the

seniors and the associates that
are taking care of all the

transactions and then the weeds,
but you need those individuals

that are outside those weeds,
looking ahead and helping to

project what the future will be.
I mean, I think people call

accounts historians. That's one
aspect, but I like to say is

we're helping to project what
the future will be, or provide

substantial evidence for an
organization to make a decision

on which way they want to go,
and I think that's important and

I think organizations are
expecting more than that, not

only the large organizations,
but even the small mom and pops

too, are looking for more of
that sophistication, and I think

that by being that specific,
you know, by leveraging all this

technology that's out there,
which is great, but if you don't

use that technology in the
right way, it doesn't mean

anything. So I think that,
especially in the last two or

three years, there's been a lot
of push with FPNA and you hear

about all that. You hear about,
you know the AI and you hear

about all the great stuff, which
is great, but now we need to

figure out how to scale that, to
be able to provide that

information, so that we can
share that with our clients and

help advise them on what they
need to do.

Speaker 2: I agree. I'll give
you one example you probably use

. I like to throw it out. It's
like you know the restaurants

making a profit and they're
happy, but when you ask them how

often the tables turn over each
night, they don't know. If they

knew that answer, they could
probably increase their

profitability.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah,
and then you get into the HR

side of that payroll and all the
information, the data. So you

know, we like to say it's not
all about only the financial

information, but it's the
operational and the supporting

information that comes combined
to provide that story right and

the comprehensive information.
So you know, average check, you

know per person, you talk about
timings, seasonality, you talk

about a lot of different things.
So it's to be able to leverage

that data and make sense. So I
know that you know a lot of

folks are creating those data
warehouses and there's a lot of

great things that are out there.
But I still think we're only at

the very beginning of
understanding how to leverage

that, just because of all, of us
are so busy to keep up with

just providing the standard
right, the standard accounting

that needs to be done. That's a
big enough challenge that it is.

But I think once we really get
to that point, that's where I

see the next two to five years.
It's really the data itself and

how we use the data and how we
share it with our clients. They

don't want to see a 50 page
report, they want a two or three

page. You know a dashboard
online they can go to and they

can run some conditional ifs or
elses and to be able to see what

that really means. That's what
they want, and some of them

don't even care as much about
the financial statements anymore

. They don't care what the data
is and how meaningful that is to

them. So I think there's going
to be a shift and we need to be

prepared as an industry to be
able to support that information

going forward.

Speaker 1: But I think, david
and I would argue that that

shift has been at play for quite
some time. We just are finally

listening.

Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I agree.
I mean I think that shift is

happening, but the thing is is
most people use that as part of

a sales process but not as part
of execution. So that would be

my response. I think everybody
talks about it and everybody

wishes they have it, but when
you look under the hood, most

people don't Right they do, they
don't know how to use it. So I

think that's an area that we all
need to get better at, and even

including us is how do we
leverage that data? That's a big

part of my strategy is how do
we create that data at our

fingertips that we can then
share with our clients and scale

that? I mean, if you have a
thousand clients, how do you do

that every month or every
quarter to be able to support

them? That's going to be the
challenge that we all need to

figure out, and it may not only
be CPAs and accountants. You're

data analysts, you get into a
lot of different things, or even

computer engineers. There's a
lot of skills out there that we

can leverage to help provide
that to our clients.

Speaker 1: It's interesting I've
seen in my 25 year career in

this profession. I've seen more
firms tax accounting firms,

literally building products and
hiring software engineers to

build out this stuff. Is that
the same at your firm as well?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think
it's a big part of we have a

tech plus group that's very big
into technology and in data

analysis and all that. So that's
a big part of our strategy and

I think even the tech stack
within CAS in the last five to

10 years is now being
standardized even more. So I

think that it's going to be.
It's here, to your point, it's

here and we need to figure out
how do we deliver that and how

do we deliver it efficiently.
And I think that's where we're

at too, and in our journey we
still got a ways to go, but we

do have clients that we provide
that information. I mean, they

love the dashboards, but a lot
of it to be able to make the

data work is still the challenge
out there. It's garbage in,

garbage out. They always say but
how do you take that data, the

source of truth, and to be able
to make sense of that and then

provide that to our clients? And
I think that's an area of that.

It's still evolving in the
industry today.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's
fair. And now we're really

getting to the challenges, right
. So do you have more examples

that come to mind where you know
this plays out Like how do you

and I'm thinking about the
listeners who are like I don't

know how what questions to ask,
like the restaurant example

right, many people wouldn't
think to ask a question like

that. So how do we help people
get to a place where they do

know those questions to ask? And
then they've got dashboards

that they can put together and
scale that help answer those

things and tie to the right KPIs
that get to that outcome that

the client is looking for.

Speaker 3: Well, outside of Coen
Resnick, I mean, there's a lot

of greater organizations that
provide I can name a bunch of

them that help provide even
guidance and training in some of

that. So I think one aspect is
getting folks trained, and it's

almost from a business case
perspective, as being a business

owner, how do you have that
same mindset to ask those same

questions to your client? So I
think having, when you look at

learning and development, that's
becoming such a big piece of

what all organizations are
making investments and including

Coen Resnick that how do you
train your staff, whether it's

through WebXs or taking online
courses or even going to school?

So there's different ways to be
able to do that. But I think

also the consulting arm if you
look at the Accenture and others

that are out there, the type of
questions they ask and the

intuitive are things that we as
public accounting I mean I came

from Accenture so asking those
same types of questions, you

have to teach people how to do
that and I think by having

people listen and be part of
meetings and asking those

questions, it's almost like
there's a grassroots way of

doing it too. So you have all
that training that you can

provide, but some of it just
takes experience also, and I

think by looking at some of the
large consulting firms and

potentially bringing in some of
those folks can help to provide

some of that guidance and
support too, and so that allows

people to think a little bit
differently, and I think that's

what we need to challenge
ourselves to be able to look

outside the box more instead of
being so finite of what we're

trying to achieve, so that we
can provide that right value to

our clients.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a
part of that that you said. That

stuck out for me around just
getting the experience right. I

would imagine that you don't
have an expectation of your

staff, as it relates to this
topic area, that they are going

to nail it right out of the gate
.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So we have a
training summit that's coming up

. We're having all of our teams
spending three days in Denver to

go through training and part of
that will be on discussions on

advisory and how we communicate
and do enroll playing and

business cases. So I think it's
yeah, I'm not expecting my team

on day one to be able to knock
it out of the park. So I think

it's bringing awareness and it's
having them sit in calls and to

start getting comfortable with
that process and how to think a

little bit differently and how
to think like our clients think.

So I think you got to start
from somewhere, but if you put a

focus on it and talk about it,
that's a starting point. But I

think that as we look to hire
going back to our discussion on

hiring you want to look for
folks that you think would be a

good fit, that are comfortable
in those environments. Not

everybody will be right. Some
people will prefer to just do

the work, and that's fine in
most cases. But you have to find

the ones that are willing to
have those discussions and sit

in front of a CEO and to be able
to feel comfortable

communicating strategy and
discussions with them too.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's
the key. You use the key word

there, discussing strategy,
looking forward, not looking

back at past transactions. How
do you make it better? And

that's where the expertise comes
in, if someone's in an industry

they know to look at. You
mentioned the word average check

. How do you up the average
check, even a dollar or two per

check? That changes the name of
the game. Accountants have to

think differently and you
pointed it out with some of

those KPI questions you were
asking.

Speaker 1: Well, and just to
build on that for a second too,

came before we hand back over to
you. That's the part, too about

we talked about like how well
do you have to know your

business right? Like quarter
backing is different from having

all the answers. So, staying
with your average check example,

david, which is perfect, you
can identify that increasing the

average check by next dollars
will get us to this KPI out and

then ultimately to the outcome.
But you don't have to know how

exactly they're going to get
there. That could just be a

matter of pulling in their team
and having a brainstorm session

and trying some testing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And I
mean I think they always talk

about the as is and the to be
processes, and there's a

methodology that you need to put
in place to be able to set up

those working sessions and
different things like that,

which I've learned early on in
my career. So that's definitely,

if you look at, that is
important for all of us is to be

able to know what that
structure is and how do you do

the right due diligence, how do
you ask those questions and what

is that framework? And I think
that's an area when you look at

the big four as an example, they
have their consulting arm that

works with their accounting arm
and they help put together

strategies. So we're not that
size, but to have them maybe not

to be to have that same kind of
thought process, as I think, is

what I'm saying Having that
methodology in place so that if

a client says, well, how do I,
how can you help me out? Well,

let's go and do an onsite, let's
do an as is process, let's

create a process flow, let's
determine what the control

points are, what the challenges
are, and then let's, at the end,

let's create a to be a process
where we can look at people

processing technology and see
how we can implement that for

you. So I mean, there's
methodology. You hear about Lean

, six Sigma and all those things
that are out there. There's a

lot of ways that organizations
can embrace that, which changes

the game instead of. You have to
have that in place in order to

be successful. As my point, so
perfect.

Speaker 1: Yeah, what a great. I
think that's a perfect place to

end the episode. I think we've
come full circle. Really really

good discussion. Kane,
appreciate your insights. You

know both from working in the
firm and doing the day to day

pipeline of talent and how we
think about skills. Just

excellent conversation.

Speaker 3: Yeah, my pleasure
Anytime.

Speaker 1: Well, that's all we
have for today. Kane, thanks so

much for being on the show.

Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, everybody.

Speaker 1: And until next time.
Thanks for listening. If you

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discussed on the show, visit
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slash podcast Account Trends is
produced and edited by Luke

Johnston. Copyright Intuit 2023.