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Conversations about the media economy, and how to think clearly when things get messy.
This is Puzzle, Problem, Mess. Conversations about the media economy and how to think clearly when things get messy. Today's guest is Justin Levin. Justin is the founder of the Future of TV Advertising Conference series, which brings together broadcasters, agencies, advertisers, and technology companies in markets including The UK, Australia, and Canada. Justin is also the cohost of the media unfiltered podcast, a podcast covering the big issues shaping advertising and media, often cohosted by Ian Whitaker, who was a guest on this podcast in episode two.
Dan Fahy:Back to Justin. Justin has an unusually broad vantage point on the industry. He spends his year talking to people across different parts of the TV advertising ecosystem in different markets and hearing where they agree, where they disagree, and where they're still trying to work out the answers. So I thought Justin would be the perfect person to help sort through some of the puzzles, problems, and messes facing television advertising today. It's a wide ranging conversation.
Dan Fahy:I hope you enjoy it. Here's Justin. We're gonna try a particular format for our conversation today. We're we're gonna try and structure the conversation around the framework that this podcast gets its name from and hear your thoughts on of all the issues and opportunities facing the TV industry, which are the ones where it's largely clear what needs to be done and the challenge is just doing it. They're the puzzles.
Dan Fahy:Which of the issues you could say the objective is clear, but there might be a few different paths to get there and there are choices to be made. And then what are the issues or topics where it's hard to even find agreement on framing of the question? So perhaps, Justin, we start with the issues or opportunities that in your view are pretty clear what needs to be done and just need doing.
Justin Lebbon:Well, this is a great way of doing it, and I'm always slightly embarrassed to be invited on such a such a podcast to talk about this stuff. So, Dan, thank you very much for having me. It's lovely to see you. We... We've worked together for a long time, haven't we?
Justin Lebbon:And so it's it's always great to chat, and I appreciate you bringing me on here. So it's a great way of doing this and what a tricky and important discussion because the erosion of local media which is what it is, is a real challenging one particularly for broadcasters. You know, it's not cheap what they do to bring premium quality local TV, let's say, or media, which which encompasses news programming for niche audience as well, sort of native to countries and all that sort of stuff, and all the rules and regulations they have around that, it's not cheap, And I'd class that as a sort of freemium proposition, and they face many challenges as we sort of evolve into this globalization of media. What's the the number one, I had to think long and hard about this and I think that I think when you look at the overall market for TV advertising, you're looking at it's a flat market at best, it's not growing right, but what's happened since you and I got into this space is that the sheer amount of growth of available inventory, some of it's similar, some of it isn't, but a lot of it is video, that's a real challenge as more and more supply comes onto the market and the market's flat, what happens?
Justin Lebbon:Rates go down, so what I mentioned earlier with broadcasters is that it's expensive to do what they do with the governance that they're under, and then they've got a clear challenge, because they've largely worked on arguing over share haven't they and that has to fundamentally change so actually getting together working together to grow the market would be a great start you see streamers coming into this space and rightly so global streamers with a strong subscription background moving into advertising as they should, but what's their attitude to the market? Well they're looking to take share simply. Right? Are they looking to grow it? Probably not at this point.
Justin Lebbon:It's easier to take share, and that's disappointing to to see. And then on the other side of it, you've got AI slop social video. You've got basically a world of unlimited impressions. So how they compete against that? I think that's the number one for me, and every single market has challenges.
Justin Lebbon:I tell you what though, where you see a strong collection of broadcasters working together, particularly around their measurement solutions, where that's a jig or a mock or whatever, where you see that framework and they have an understanding and a strategy to go after, let's say for example, they're going after social spend and all that sort of stuff, and they they change how they approach the market. They're changing their measurement system. You're seeing results when they do do that, and that is the only way forward. And I think the other thing to look out for... Look at as well is when you look at individual broadcasters, many of them rely a lot or overwhelmingly on the whole codes of their business, you know, sometimes it's as high as 95%, which is which is way too high.
Justin Lebbon:So whole codes typically look after about 20% of all global ad spend, the growth is the other is the 80%, but let's say let's say if you're looking at the middle that could be 50% of the market, that's a huge amount of business and these are companies that could be domestic, could be in your case Australia and New Zealand based or wherever, where I am Canada, they've grown up with digital metrics, so they're used to that feedback loop, they're used to that ease of transaction they're used to consistent data you know the example I always use is you know can I buy every dog over in the country with a couple of clicks the problem with broadcasters is that they don't work together from a buying perspective they don't work together on a data perspective so consistent data to buy all dog owners with your region frequency sorted out across the country boom do that in two clicks that's just no one's doing that at the moment and that's what they should be doing, the other issue as well as being sort of beholden to the holdcoes is that figure of 20% is not really growing, it's kind of flat right?
Justin Lebbon:So if your business relies almost entirely on that 20%, you need to change, and then the other end of it is the SME business, and there's there's lots of iterations around that, know, there's there's Universal Ads in The UK, which is between Sky, ITV and Channel four, which is a free will Comcast proposition, that's also in The US too, you also have others like Dan Ads as well, which is, I believe is the tech around Channel nine, and they're great ideas right, and what you're seeing from some TV companies will come to diversification, but they're investing or have already got or having alliances with radio out of home which have a really good strong ground game for SMEs, using those buying platforms to then sell into the local market, that's huge right, because when you look at like Meta's business and Google's business, 8% of their business comes from the long tail of advertising, comes from the non altco business, and they need to take a share of that in order to grow.
Dan Fahy:Let's roll back to the the themes you were talking to there about making TV easier to buy, and is is this something that should be in the we've just gotta do it category? It's pretty relatively easy to know what ease of buying looks like and feels like because there are models out there.
Justin Lebbon:I think that there's tech out on the market, and they certainly don't have the the money in order to build any of this stuff. There's plenty of products and services out there that they can white label. But what they need to do is take control of it. Right? And Australia was a really good example of this and we've seen this in Canada.
Justin Lebbon:This is actually the area where I spend most of my time and way too much money is taken out of the middle, if you like, and that they're following this exact same path as programmatic display, and you lose control, you lose the ability to arbitrage your own media, which is to add data, you lose, you don't know what price clients are paying for your media as well, and when a lot of your success relies on MMMs, which come back to an ROI figure, cost is really, really important. So they need to control that, and then what I said earlier was about that about that especially that messy middle if you like they're buying audiences with an ease of transaction we have to match and mirror what the platforms do it's really good what you can do with the platforms right you're basically in closed loop systems buying audiences which is basically inventory plus you know data and you're getting some sort of feedback loop and you can't do that on your own right no one I keep using the Australian example I use The UK example no one gives a shit what Sky does over ITV but they would love to know what premium TV does particularly at a higher CPM but you can't can't even get there without working together and having a measurement solution and a buying solution altogether and it's not difficult this stuff is not difficult it is all politics so in SME so two things here when you talk to major advertisers they sometimes say TV's got no product and I've always been a bit confused by that line, but what they mean is, they need you to go there with an actual you know an ability to in this case probably just log in to a cloud based system to buy your inventory, to add data to it, to do some other addressable stuff to it, to add different content types etcetera etcetera, they don't have a product and that is an absolutely good point and then for the SME market you need scale, cannot have five or six different products in a market right?
Justin Lebbon:So I always compare per market the size and the fame of the platforms compared to the individual TV companies right? They're big, Everyone knows how to access them. Everyone knows that's how you market your business. Right? That's what TV companies need to do.
Justin Lebbon:So they they should build a way of buying the inventory, brand it, give it a name, give it an Avenger type name or whatever you want to do it and then market the hell out of it, make it so everyone knows that's what you can do right and then once you have that particularly to the SME space, you can start providing the measurement solutions as well and the data solutions that these companies are so familiar with.
Dan Fahy:I just want to go back to one question for you in the things that just need doing category. In your travels around the the many countries you go to and the the sectors that you're deeply involved with and connected to, what have you noticed about sales organizations and their their evolution into this sort of more tech based, digitally savvy partnership based environment? Who's doing it well?
Justin Lebbon:That's a really interesting question, because I think in many markets, one of the things that have saved broadcast for the short period of time is that much of their money has been ring fenced by the way that they've traded TV and this is certainly the case in The UK the historic deals that they've had with their main trading partners, so when I'm saying look go after the middle, know, whole coast can't save your business, they won't save your business, but they have up until now or maybe in another couple of years time, like that dam is going to break, so many of these companies are changing their sales structure and becoming less reliant I guess on those old school trading frameworks, which have saved TV very very well, and you'll see it with trading like Channel four have hired a lot of people who have worked on platforms and in digital environments, which I think is a really good move. You're seeing that by quite a few companies. You're also seeing a lot of them experimenting with DSPs and tech partners to see what demand come into right and that's important we have to do that I think Australia were way ahead of the game regarding that they realised what a mess they've got themselves in sort of clawed it back this is what you're seeing in Australia at the moment Canada is in the same situation as well, I think that TV on a collaborative note should go one step further, and what I mean by that is that once you build a product in the market and you ring fence it, you make it easy to buy, that's what you can take to the entire market and then you can actually do a much better job going to brands directly and this is where I see the sort of the big sort of black hole if you like, you can't rely on third parties like agencies selling TV to your clients like you could sell yourself right, so they need to go to clients and the difficulty that they have is on their own individually, quite hard to get meetings with them, know it's hard as an individual broadcaster to get in, but what about as a collective, Why couldn't they collaborate around you know a think body, something like that, a trade body and go direct?
Justin Lebbon:Norway is a really good example, you mentioned tech and programmatic, by the way they're growing their market and they're growing their market through a couple of ways but they've changed the narrative that TV has which is really really important because one of TV's big problems is that it's not too fashionable but they're changing that through working together, through having their main think body or tank TV it's called, educate, lean into clients direct, take them around the world, take them to different markets, and it's having a major impact on how they're viewing television, and believe it or not, they're doing none of that with programmatic, no, it's all direct deals, and TV has to do a better job of going direct to clients.
Dan Fahy:So if we turn our attention more fully to the collaboration theme that you've been illustrating as we've gone on, if you had to write a very simple checklist for a market broadcasters, if you're going to collaborate, these are the three or five areas that you must collaborate on.
Justin Lebbon:First one, solve the politics. If you're sitting in a room and you just just sit in a room, go around the table, and figure out if you think you can grow your market without each other, then... And if you if you go, yeah, think we can. You're getting... Yeah.
Justin Lebbon:Then just just just walk away. It's not gonna happen. You gotta solve the politics. If the if the politics are solved, and you guys can sit there and go or whatever market you're in and go, yeah, you know what? We need each other to grow the middle.
Justin Lebbon:We need each other to to fix measurement. If you can't solve that from the very top, it doesn't matter about the rest underneath. And I've seen it in various different markets where they're trying to do little things here and there but they haven't solved the politics of we need to be together in order to fight the platforms, we need scale, we need to ring fence premium or quality in order to sell that to the market, we need to work together so we can have a combined sales team to challenge the platforms that sort of thing, so that's number one, I'd say what was the first thing you would do? I think I think if you... Depending on the market that you're in, if you solve the politics around what you need together, I think scale and consistency, and this will probably come round to this TV easier to buy thingy, so if you have solved the politics and you realise to grow you need to expand demand, let's be honest TV's been super guilty of just harvesting not planting the seed we've got to do that way I say we the TV industry has got to do that much better so if you agree with that I think the way to do it is to have a product that goes to the market, which is that consistent buy, and I think that'd be the first thing that you would work on in any market.
Justin Lebbon:Number two, I hate this one, but it's true, the measurement and the performance element, right? So many brands, particularly in that middle space are so used to these performance metrics and we just have to accept it, right? Whether we like it or not. I always argue that only about 5% of potential buyers are sort of actively in market for any given moment. Right?
Justin Lebbon:They're 95% or not, but we spend all our time marketing to this 5%, and we can argue about that all we like, whether that's good or whether it's bad. The fact is brands are doing it. Okay? It it just is. Right?
Justin Lebbon:So, you know, what that means is if you're selling a car or a telly or whatever, only 5% of that new sort of addressable market is ready to buy, but we spend all our time marketing to it. So what's TV really bad at? It's really capturing what it delivers in that short term. And I think that again, clients don't give a shit if using an Australian example here, if what seven delivers over nine or over Foxtel, they don't give a shit, but they will give a shit if it's if it's television. So the second piece would be fixing the measurement.
Justin Lebbon:I wanna give an example from Sweden. Norway did a similar thing and served the Dutch, but the Swedes realised together that they need to go after social spend. Social has grown exponentially right, and it's a real challenge, but their measurement system was, it was the classic seven day plus sort of measurement system, and it was just the social guys were able to use their own figures to argue their case, so what they've done is that they've changed their measurement system fundamentally to go to as seen, the reason why they're doing that is it's almost comparing it directly to social and how that's measured, What they... What that means in doing is that they're able to show that they've got better view through rates, that people watch their ads for longer. They can compare it way better than they could with the previous iteration of measurement.
Justin Lebbon:But do you see do you see how that works? They've fixed the politics, picked the market to go after and they're all doing it together. Most markets are a mess, let's be honest and they're still arguing over share, they're all saying, well we've got this sport, we've got this, and no one gives a shit, most of time you're on an AV plan with in stream programmatic video, The TV's got to learn to build that product and come together, so they have to do the measurement piece and again it has to come from the politics, but I think the market needs to define also what is quality and then sell it together in order to do that and ring fence it so there's the quality piece the other one is well it's fashion, TV's not that fashionable it's a problem isn't it right there's this you know look at the Unilever CEO and CMO coming out saying that we're spending all this money on influencers and social. It just sounds better. Can you imagine if he came out and said, we're gonna you know, we're gonna spank 75% of our budget on telly.
Justin Lebbon:I mean, he'd look like an a hole, wouldn't he? It just doesn't, it's getting that fashion back into the product would be fantastic. We've gotta get our sort of swerve back, and that's about challenging the narrative. And again, when I look at the other markets, these are smaller markets who have done a great job there they've done the education piece really well but they've done it together they've done it with a centralised system and I think that's really important for the market you know TV won they've won the effectiveness battle years and years ago but it doesn't have any impact they've got to they've got to do a little bit more with that stuff, but they've got to go they've got to do a lot more with the education stuff to bring back make it more of a fashionable product for marketers.
Dan Fahy:Great. Thank you. And just rolling back to the politics as the gating factor to the collaboration. Now we were speaking prior to hitting record about the amount of spend in some markets that's gone to the the tech platforms. Do you attribute Sky and ITV's and Fores' ability to put the politics aside and come together around their SME product to the fact that it's a quite an urgent situation over there?
Dan Fahy:There's so much spend that's gone to the tech platforms.
Justin Lebbon:Yeah. No. They they saw the right one, the wall. Right? They see the ceiling with with spend.
Justin Lebbon:As I mentioned earlier, holdco's represent about 20% of the spend, and then the the rest is mid sized to to smaller businesses. And they realize that there's a huge addressable market there for television. It's not all of it. I totally get it's not all of it. Right?
Justin Lebbon:I'm trying to put a figure on, you know, typically with it... With any business, marketing spend is about 1% of your revenue. So you can... In each of your markets, you can figure out how much of an addressable market you can go over, but you're you're looking at in The UK market billions. Now The UK UK market, when you look at Meta, Google, and Amazon, they represent...
Justin Lebbon:The three of them represent close to 75% of all media spent. Well, that's that's a terrible situation to be in for everyone involved. That impacts agencies, large or small. That impacts content creation, local businesses, radio, out of home, everyone. Everyone else is fighting for 25%.
Justin Lebbon:That's crazy. Australia much better, it's more like 50%. Canada's closer to 60%. The US is about 51%, but that is something, the mind boggles really, that is not something that we're all laser focused on because it's gonna really get it like, in Canada, there's this fantastic piece done by Sarah Thompson, which actually showed the economic impact of the media and advertising industry or the media industry in Canada. So it showed the contribution to content journalism like we've got to talk about that like journalism is traditionally funded through advertising and the impact it has as ad dollars leave the country it has a major like the GDP contribution of media in Canada is as high as auto it's actually higher than auto but auto gets all the all the press because people can see it right it's people in you know, blue suits screwing on bolts on wheels and stuff.
Justin Lebbon:You can't see the media industry and the contribution to the filming, to the production crews and all that sort of stuff. And then there's that societal impact for for news and holding our politicians accountable. Like that's really important, but the economic impact is enormous. And I think I think we... I think brands need to be way more responsible where they put their money.
Justin Lebbon:So I guess your question there is like, is that why The UK market did it? They did it because it's a way of going after more media spend and expanding demand. Expanding demand should be one of the number one things that these... That that TV companies and... Or TV, radio, out of home should be doing across every single country.
Dan Fahy:Great. Let... Let's move to the topic of premium pricing and packaging up. Now I know we could do an entire episode on this alone, but do you wanna talk around whether that's something that should be solvable?
Justin Lebbon:Yeah. I think that it's proven through effectiveness research that quality drives better results, right? You might pay twice as much, four times as much, but you get 10 times as much benefit from it consistently, right? That's the theory. We're not here to argue that, but I think also having safe environments, governed environments are are important as well, and then trust is is massive in advertising.
Justin Lebbon:So let's not underestimate trust, it's become a huge component to effectiveness as in do the audience trust the information they're receiving and what impact does that have on the advertiser? Is there a sort of halo effect? And it's been proven time and time again, yes it is. Which are the most trusted environments? Well, they are the ones that are most governed.
Justin Lebbon:It's radio, out of home, it's television. This is independent reporting. You guys can can Google this yourself. So it's not it's not me just not me just spouting it. This is the latest research that the IPO and Credos did, and there's there's tons of other.
Justin Lebbon:So it's just how do you get quality into the hands of your media buyers and prove it? Because so much of what we've done in this world is bay... In the media world is based on price. It's based on price. We have to understand.
Justin Lebbon:This is the uncomfortable. This is the inconvenient and uncomfortable truth. This media has a fairly low impact on your campaign success. There's loads of other factors. There's loads like...
Justin Lebbon:Obviously, there's creative. Media can can certainly help, but it's still 10 to 15% of your campaign success. Can get away with a lot of shitty media, and it can be hidden in the data. Let's be honest. Price then has a major impact on ROI, so we chase price, you know.
Justin Lebbon:Brands now knowingly barely pay their agency, and agencies are just looking for savings, so it's easier to buy lots of cheap and pass that on to clients so quality is a real challenge in how you do it so Cannes was actually filled with this wasn't it there was quality CPMs which yeah I mean putting a score next to it I don't know I don't know how comfortable brands would be with that. But what I think they should do is that it comes back to the define what quality is in your market and ring fence it, and then put everything that you can in that tent and sell it as quality. So what I mean by that is, I think quality is a combination of the content that you're watching and the environment that it's in. So advertisers, if you're buying inventory and you don't know what you're buying and you don't know what it's against and you've got no third party independent verification to know what you're buying against, it's not quality because you don't know what you're buying against. Could be...
Justin Lebbon:It could... You know, we always hear this whole, oh, this doctor on TikTok is fantastic and it's a proper doctor, know, that's quality environment. Yeah, sure. But you can't buy that person on TikTok, you buy audiences and it could be any old shit. So it's not quality, right?
Justin Lebbon:And that's why it's cheap. So there's environment plus professionally produced, governed, like you know this from working in broadcasters and for studios, you can't put any old ad on television. Meta was reported to earn 16,000,000,000 globally from scam ads, and these are ads that are scamming consumers. Right? Imagine if that happened on television.
Justin Lebbon:Oh, it would be it'd be it'd be crazy. So I think what they should do is when they work together and build a buying portal, a premium DSP if you like, what they do is ring fence what premium premium is. So it's governed, it's audited, it's regulated, fully transparent. It's counted by the independent jic or mock or whatever it is, and the the jic or mock in the various countries, they're mostly jicks, agree on how it's counted. Just so you know, all jicks, all mocks, the numbers are wrong, but if you don't agree on how to count and what an impression he is, then it's a shit show.
Justin Lebbon:Everyone just makes it makes it up. So anyway, they agree on how it's counted. They're okay with the with the methodology. They can see the wires, how to connect it. There's no black boxes.
Justin Lebbon:That's quality. It's a governed environment. You know what you're getting. And I think if they could do that and sell it together and then add their data and all that sort of stuff, that's how you ring fence premium. You say, well, is premium.
Justin Lebbon:Well, how is it premium over other stuff? Because you know what you get. It's quality stuff. It's local stuff. It supports the news.
Justin Lebbon:Then you can add all the other stuff. If you don't... I like this line, and I stole it from someone. If you don't... This goes back to making it easier by the way, so we talk about premium, we talk about measurement, we talk about independence and governments, I don't think all that matters if it's not easy to buy, if it's not easy to buy, if you haven't got the simplification down, the other stuff doesn't matter, But it does matter if you mirror it.
Justin Lebbon:So that's for me how you get into quality, and then let's take take a market. Well, take your market for example in Australia. If you have that quality DSP that's ring fenced, governed, all that sort of stuff, the streamers and the YouTubes and all that sort of stuff you're going after TV spend, quality TV spend, they will have to get into that tent in order to get that spend, and then that brings everybody up. And then suddenly, you've you've built a marketplace around quality. You cannot do it on your own.
Justin Lebbon:I mean, you just... I don't know how many times I go over this when I sit with a bunch of broadcasters. I go, oh, yeah. We can do this on... You can't.
Justin Lebbon:You just... You you can't. You don't even have the money to do it. Right? Universal ads, for example, this is just the SME product, costs north of 80,000,000 to build.
Justin Lebbon:So you don't have the money to do it. And you save money on CapEx by by working together with with the same tech services and platforms. So simplification, then you define what the market is, and and I think I think the USP of television really comes through once you match the the the the simple way it can be bought and traded.
Dan Fahy:This is all very practical, and it feels like you can get your hands on some of these. But what are the things that we just cannot define as an industry that are probably distractions because they create a lot of noise and you just cannot get your hands around it at the moment.
Justin Lebbon:I think a lot of this cross media measurement stuff is, which which you've seen with with Origin. I think I think that's all a bit of a distraction. I think if if TV or if if domestic media sets the framework of what's quality, how it's bought and traded, and all that sort of stuff, then everyone will have to come into that tent, and then you can start figuring out cross media measurement across the quality inventory sources. So I think that's a distraction. Again once you solve the politics you can start defining what the market is what it's called what's quality and all that sort of stuff it's just I think I'm mentioning the politics bit because I think that is the hardest it's the easiest thing to say so easy isn't it Dan, for me to sit here and say all this stuff?
Justin Lebbon:But it... It's very, very difficult to solve. You're talking about a lot of companies that are traditionally incredibly competitive. They're worrying about ratings points between each other. They're worrying about sales.
Justin Lebbon:I mean, we we don't have to go too far back where the remuneration of the CROs a lot of these companies is based on how much share you nicked off your competitive TV company. Right? That all has to change. So, yeah, I think that cross media measurement stuff is probably a distraction, and I think anything else outside of we've discussed is a distraction in all honesty to you. That the final, well, yeah, we could call this the final point, and I think we might be coming onto this.
Justin Lebbon:I think that if for any of these TV companies, if they're... I've done a little bit of research for various companies that I consult with. If your if your revenue is 95% plus reliant on advertising, you're in real trouble. Because despite... Even if you did all these things, I'm not saying you're gonna win, and you're probably not.
Justin Lebbon:In a world of unlimited advertising, you... You're not. You need sub revenue, subscription revenue, I mean by that. You need... Look what NBCU are doing.
Justin Lebbon:I think this is this is fascinating stuff. They're using their brands. We we... We've been selling the power of brand building and brands, and TV has some of the best brands in the world. Right?
Justin Lebbon:Have you heard about BravoCon in The US? It's... So Bravo is one of their sort of broadcasting or networking... Network outlets, and they they actually run a trade show based on the stars that go there and the content. Sell in ninety seconds, it sells out to 30,000 people.
Justin Lebbon:They sell sponsorship around it, they sell advertising around it, it's classic diversification. Look at newspapers, look at the New York Times, it's a real success story. You know, go back fifteen years, Oh, Christ. I have to make this number up because I can't remember the exact number, but 60 to 70% of their their their their revenues were based on advertising. Now that's about 25%.
Justin Lebbon:Mhmm. It's podcast. They look like a social network now when you go through them. They've got they've got the news that comes on as a podcast you can flick through. It's a quality curated environment.
Justin Lebbon:I mean, like, TV has all this all this inventory and assets and and fantastic professionally produced content, and we've got no shorts. We've got no ability to watch this stuff on social media and all the rest of it. They're doing it, but they're not doing it they're not doing it very well at the moment. Another example of NBCU and Disney is the the ability to make money from fandom right so it's using influencers that are part of their events and then they sell sponsorships on that and this isn't repurposing their content to sell to make money on advertising this is actually branded environments that they take to to social media, so it's stuff like that, and then and then the other the other element of diversification which you're seeing in your market, TV companies buying out of home, combining sales teams with radio, makes a lot of sense, a lot of sense, the radio markets out at home have got an incredible ground game of sales staff, so so tying them into to TV ad sales makes makes a lot of sense to me, and they they they they're not gonna win on advertising. I know that's a really negative point, but you you can't win in the world like you can do...
Justin Lebbon:Even if you did everything that I suggested, I don't think it's still enough. I think you need to you need to have other ways of making money.
Dan Fahy:What a great and expansive note to finish on. Thank you for your time this morning. It's been a skim across the top. I appreciate it from your perspective, but it's been a very illuminating conversation. So thanks very much.
Justin Lebbon:I hope it wasn't too ranty. And I think because I say these things so frequently, and I've worked so much on them, I think I frustrate people saying how easy it is. The solution is is kind of staring us in the face, but I think it's a lot harder to execute than perhaps I I make out. So I apologize if if if people feel that way, but it's one of those things, isn't it? Where I actually think the answers are are quite straightforward.
Justin Lebbon:It's just how to get there, and I think that's what a lot of TV companies are are are struggling with at the moment.
Dan Fahy:Fantastic. Justin, thank you.
Justin Lebbon:Cheers, Dan.
Dan Fahy:That was Justin Levin. Thanks for listening. I'm Dan Fey. Original music by Lee Roseveer and So Cal. And if you like this episode, please pass it on to a friend or colleague.