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This podcast and community breaks the silence, shame, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma and helps you embrace your God-given sexuality with courage compassion and connection. People just like you share their stories of recovery and forgiveness and experts teach principles, share insights, and provide real tools to help you rebuild trust and develop healthy sexuality. Ask your questions anonymously and expert therapist, Rachel Denton, will answer them and discuss practical tools to help and gain insight as to how ecclesiastical leaders can play an effective and powerful role in your healing. Join Crishelle Simons as she breaks the silence and together we can create a culture of courage, compassion, and connection.
This podcast is brought to you by Reach 10. Reach 10 is a non-profit with a mission to educate and help young adults overcome the effects of pornography and betrayal trauma and create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
Join the community at @breakingthesilence_reach10 or visit reach10.org.
We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests do not constitute as professional advice or services and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning, and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture.
BTS 2.12 Ask a Therapist Series: How do I change?
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[00:00:00]
Crishelle: You're listening to Breaking the Silence, a podcast by Reach10, where we are breaking the shame, silence, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma, and helping you embrace your God given sexuality with courage, compassion, and connection. I'm your host, Chrishell Simons. Welcome to Breaking the Silence. Today, we are breaking the silence with our Ask a Therapist series and Rachel Denton, she's so great. She's joining us again. Ah, I love these episodes so much because I feel like we get so deep and your questions really help us go there. So thank you to everyone who has ever submitted a question or sent me a question on Instagram or texted me a question.
I am so grateful for these questions because they are sparking some really beautiful conversations between the two of us. Oh, and today we are going to [00:01:00] be diving in a little bit deeper into how do I change? What does it mean to do the work? , quote, unquote, the work to change. And this is, this is kind of stemming off actually from our last episode.
In the Ask a Therapist series, where we just kind of started talking about this and we realized that we wanted to give a whole episode of what does it mean to do the work and what does it mean to change? Like, how do I change? How do I actually change and see results in changing my behavior, in my reactions, in who I am.
All of those things. So, that's what we're going to be talking about today. Without further ado, Rachel, will you just take a moment, maybe just introduce yourself, tell us your favorite ice cream, and your favorite color, and whatever else you want to tell us.
Rachel: well I'll start with my favorite ice cream because that is a very important question. Today I went to Trader Joe's and I love Trader Joe's, but I don't go often. And so today I did and [00:02:00] they had a banana cream pie flavored ice cream. Now I, banana is my very favorite flavor. I love the actual fruit, but also anything banana flavored I love.
Crishelle: Even Laffy Taffy's?
Rachel: Well, okay, that's like the fake,
Crishelle: Okay, that's I just needed to know. I needed to know where we land with the banana flavors.
Rachel: no, I did like real banana, but so so I don't know I haven't I haven't tried this ice cream yet But I bought it and I'm gonna just say right now It's going to be my favorite because banana cream pie is delicious and it's ice cream form.
So that's my favorite ice cream flavor And if it's, like, if it's not true next time we meet, I will let you know if it was the wrong flavor. If it wasn't actually my favorite.
Crishelle: So stay tuned on her favorite ice
Rachel: tuned. But also, if it's delicious, then everyone run to Trader Joe's and get that ice
Crishelle: Right now.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Crishelle: Oh, that's great. And your favorite color?
Rachel: Oh, [00:03:00] you know, I... Would say actually it's green. I used to love like yellow and red, but lately it's been green. I recently took a trip to Alaska and it came back and it was so green there and came back and I was like, it's green. Just
Crishelle: I mean, it makes sense. You're from the Pacific
Rachel: I am, I'm from Oregon. And
Crishelle: checks out.
Rachel: yeah, yep. Green. I would say,
Crishelle: Oh, that's great. Okay, and then anything else maybe you want to share with us?
Rachel: I mean, those were what were most important. No. Yes,
Crishelle: the only credentials you
Rachel: those are the only credentials the ones that matter. So, yes. So I'm, I'm. Rachel, I am an LCSW licensed clinical social worker. I have a private practice that I currently work at and take clients there working with individuals and couples and have worked in various places.
I have worked, I've worked in this world of pornography for a very long time. [00:04:00] I feel like it's close. Probably close to 10 years. Honestly.
Crishelle: why I was gonna say I think it's been 10 years because I've known you for 10 years
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's been around 10 years. This is something I care a lot about and have quite a bit experience with so I'm happy to be here
Crishelle: Yes, and we are so lucky to have you. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. And so, okay, where I want to start with this is is answering the question. Okay. Where this comes from is I think that there's this idea out in the world, it's around, is that people can't really change.
And that, like, I've tried to change, but this is just who I am. that true? Okay, actually, I think it's false. Why is that false? Again, maybe, maybe it is true. You tell me. Can people change?
Rachel: yeah Absolutely, I would say that people That is one of my personal core beliefs about people and that's probably what led me to be a therapist. I just, I believe [00:05:00] anybody can change. I also believe just as strongly that not everybody will and because it is extremely challenging to change, especially when it's behaviors or thoughts or Like anything that's just been there since we were young.
And that it's very difficult to change. I actually would say that the changing part itself is not the hardest part. The hardest part is that I think most people deep down don't want to change. And the reason I say that is because like, I think that anybody could look at their lives and say. These are the areas that I don't like about myself.
I don't like the way that I just snapped at my kids. I don't like the way that I yelled at my partner or, you know, I, I wanna be able to change my reaction to things. But when it really comes down to it, we often are so [00:06:00] in entrenched in either in like specific ideas or beliefs we have about ourselves and the world.
And also very quick reactions to those that are, that feel. Safe to us, even if the behavior is not great, or if it's even damaging to ourself or to somebody else, it's known and it's what feels safe. So the idea of doing something, even though we logically understand it's going to be beneficial to us and probably improve our lives.
It's, there's a big part of us that says absolutely not. Like as much as this hurts us, as much as this is hurting our relationship, this is what we know and we stick to what we know. So. I would say that when we're talking about change, that is the hardest, like, that is what is the most challenging for people with whether or not they actually do change.
Crishelle: That is to abandon maybe the feeling of safety [00:07:00] that the behavior that you're trying to change creates. Is that, is that what you're
Rachel: Yeah, yeah, definitely
But also I think that it's what works. Like, we, we don't do behaviors that don't. Get like, don't work in the way that we want them to work or like,
Crishelle: Interesting. I mean,
Rachel: what's a better way to say that? We don't do behaviors that aren't successful at what they're trying to do. So,
Crishelle: I think that's perfectly said. Yeah.
Rachel: yeah, so, so if I am wanting to change that to something healthier, there is often a younger part of ourselves that's like, why, you know, like this works.
Like you withdrawing, that gets you the attention you need. Or you you blowing up at someone that finally gets them to stop. Yelling at you or or it makes you feel more in control and more powerful, like, why would we change? So it's really working with those parts of us that feel like. What, yeah, why, why would we change and there's no guarantee that if we were to do a different behavior or [00:08:00] to respond differently that it would work or be successful. And so I think that like honestly in my office, that's the biggest thing I see people come in and they say, these are the things I don't like. These are things or the areas I'm wanting to change, but when it comes down to it, they don't really want to change.
Crishelle: Yeah, I think what you just said there too is, is can be really hard is yeah, that younger part or those parts of us that are like, Oh, but I'm getting the results that I actually like feel powerful or feel safe or feel influential. Like that's like, you're, my needs are being met. It can be really hard to shift into a better way of doing things when your needs aren't being met.
And sometimes you might find yourself where your needs aren't being met and your life is a hot mess and you need something really drastic like rehab or
Rachel: Sure.
Crishelle: like, that is definitely a thing. And that can be really [00:09:00] obvious. Like, Oh wow, my life is out of control.
Rachel: Well, I, I
Crishelle: not as obvious, but go
Rachel: I would say that it's people who've reached that point probably will start to change because it's almost like the pain is greater than, than the behavior of, like, the pain is more than the behavior was working. So, so at that point, I, I think that it, it feels like, okay, well, like clearly us drinking every night in the way that we are isn't. It isn't like the, this is creating more pain than it was, than it's solving. And I think that when people really reached kind of that rock bottom, then that is a way to access change. It's definitely not the only way I don't, I'm not saying that everyone has to reach rock bottom before they can change. makes it challenging is working with this part that feels like it doesn't want to change.
Crishelle: Yeah. Interesting. And I think maybe, sometimes, in [00:10:00] our last episode in this series, we talked about a couple who and maybe avoiding the dynamic of one person feeling like they have a level up in a relationship. And you can go back and listen to that full episode if you missed it. It's really great.
But the person who's not struggling with pornography being like, well, I don't, you know, like I'm fine. Like you've got to change. These are all the boundaries. I think that what you just described is it can be really easy to be like, well, you need to change these behaviors because they're really obvious behaviors.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: it can be really easy to point out other people's behaviors or if you have obvious behaviors that you can change. That can, like, lead to change quicker. The, the change and, and maybe the work that needs to be done to change subtle things can be less obvious and more, sometimes even more impactful when you do finally get there.
Is that... Is that, am I, am I understanding that? Am I [00:11:00] saying
Rachel: Absolutely. I mean, I think, I think generally when people want to change what they're wanting to change are probably behaviors that come like behaviors and emotions that come from dysregulation. So if we're talking about like habits or someone's like, you know, I don't floss and I really like to start flossing, there's, that's probably not a very Emotionally charged change, right?
Where people are just like, like, they're like, they're like, yeah, I'm on board with that. I just don't remember. So I'm going to put a reminder on my mirror. I'll remember to floss slowly will become a new habit and I'll change that. That's different than what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is something where that's like a maladaptive behavior or maladaptive, and usually it's a maladaptive behavior from emotions.
So usually the behaviors that we have, we. created in childhood. And, you know, to some extent they may have grown up with us a little bit where it looks a little bit [00:12:00] different, but the root of the behavior is the same. And when we were kids, that behavior was very adaptive. I'm sure it did exactly what it needed to do.
Like, let's say that someone had a really raging father. So this This child then withdraws and just kind of goes about their day and is walking on eggshells and is You know, not, not present there in the home emotionally, right? That, that is a, actually a very smart adaptive behavior for that child.
The problem is, is as that threat leaves, let's say the child grows up, goes to college or you know, it's just older and then they're in a relationship with someone as soon, and they feel like that person is upset with them. They're going to go back to that old behavior and... Potentially withdraw. So that's what we're talking about now.
That's a maladaptive behavior. And it's looking at like, this isn't serving me anymore. So it's really looking at those behaviors. What do I do? That are causing [00:13:00] harm to myself and to my relationships and how can I work on changing those?
Crishelle: How do you identify these kinds of things? Like, is it really, because sometimes I feel like it can be difficult to do that. Is it always difficult? Like, how do you know?
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I think this, this is a great question. And I would say this is the probably the, well, this is the first step to change is can I name what's happening? And a lot of us struggle with naming things in real time. So being able to say like, Ooh, right now I'm feeling really triggered. And I'm feeling myself getting really angry and beginning to yell, or I'm feeling myself withdraw, like, that's challenging to do in real time.
So, what I would generally recommend is, can I look back throughout my day, throughout my week, and say, was there a time I can look back and say, was not, I was not activated, or I was not [00:14:00] I, I was activated then. I wasn't regulated. And,
Crishelle: And activated may be like triggered or you responded or reacted in a way that like, you're like, whoa,
Rachel: yeah, yeah,
Crishelle: that what you
Rachel: that, yeah. I would say that doesn't align with who we want to be. And, or, our behaviors that we don't respect in ourselves. So, Can I look back and be like, Ooh, yeah, I snapped. I said something really unkind today to my, my sister. I didn't catch it during that time, but I'm thinking about it now.
So if I were to go back, can I look at, all right, so how, how was I feeling when. There were, like, when I first felt that trigger, what did I first notice in my body? Maybe I noticed that my my stomach tightened. Or maybe I noticed my cheeks got really flushed. Or my heart started to beat faster. What are, you know, looking back, what urges did I have?
Like, did I [00:15:00] want to, like, start screaming? Or did I... Did I want to just hang up and leave the phone or, and so really, really trying to understand our behavior from as much of a, like a third party perspective is great. I think that's really helpful because when we can collect the data of what's going on, then we can do something about it down the road.
It's this idea of, of naming it to tainment,
Crishelle: Beautiful. I think also just increasing your self awareness of just like, let's really wake up instead of just reacting. Like let's observe a past event and just the best of our ability, just aware of what happened as much as possible and take the time to really be aware. Wow. I think that that could be so educational.
Just doing that.
Rachel: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. When I, the, because these behaviors have been around for so long oftentimes we just don't really notice. Like all of a sudden we're like [00:16:00] super angry and upset and we're like, how did I even get here? So it's being able to look back. I like to think of it, the idea as a an emotion scientist.
I have a good friend who's an anthropologist and when she, which. An anthropologist is, is studying cultures or groups of people. So when she goes out into the field, what she's doing is she is just purely observing this group of people. She's asking a lot of questions, like, can you help me understand why you do this or what this looks like for you?
How does, what does, you know, how does this show up for you? But she's not there to change anything. Like she's not going to be like, you know, what would be much more effective is if you guys started to X, Y, or Z. Like, that would be. A very bad anthropologist. So it's this idea of, can we be anthropologist to ourself?
Can we look back and say like, all right, so why did I do that? And we're not judging. We're just trying to gather data.
Crishelle: It sounds like we're just curious, like literally just come at [00:17:00] it with like. What happened observing it, like even like watching the movie of it.
Rachel: absolutely.
Crishelle: Interesting.
Rachel: And observing what were my actual behaviors that I did, but also how did I feel and more in depth as how did I feel somatically? How did I feel in my body? What, and what urges did I have that came along with that? I think those are really, really valuable points to look at.
Crishelle: Interesting. And also you might notice like, wow, I was really tired in that moment.
Rachel: Hmm.
Crishelle: I was really stressed out because I hadn't eaten for a while. Like you might, as you start asking like those body questions, you're going to start noticing other factors that like, not just the emotional stimuli, but also the physical stimuli that led to the event,
Rachel: Exactly.
Crishelle: Interesting. Oh, fascinating. I think this is so helpful because how often do I do this, not, you know, like, I want to do it more. I want to [00:18:00] make sure that I'm pausing and being like, okay, as I self reflect on the last day, the last week, I'm probably going to do more than even a day.
Rachel: Hmm.
Crishelle: Personally, but if you're like someone who could do a week or two weeks, whatever okay, I could probably do a week. Just taking the time to really reflect and to observe those things would be so educational for
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: So educational.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, and the, the goal of this is to hopefully eventually be able to do it in real time. So, that would look like, ooh, okay. I am feeling I'll actually give you an example. I... When I was starting to be aware of this in myself, I started to notice that when I was feeling particularly anxious, which when I'm feeling anxious, that leads to me actually being like pretty short with people and kind of snappy.
So I started to notice well before I ever snapped at anyone that when I was feeling more anxious, I would [00:19:00] play with my hair. I'm not like a huge fidgety person. Normally, but when I'm anxious, I would, I would just play with my hair. So one of the things that I notice is that sometimes I'll be like doing the middle of something and I'll grab my hair and start playing with it.
And that's always my cue to be like, Oh, I need a pause. What am I anxious about? Because I, I've like worked with this long enough to know that when I play with my hair, it means, generally, not always, but generally it means I'm feeling anxious and that I potentially am setting myself up for a shorter fuse.
Like, so let's say my husband comes in and he asks me a question and I snap. It's likely that I was feeling anxious before that. So So being able to really recognize those in real time so that then there can be an intervention before the actual behavior happens.
Crishelle: Interesting. And so, and it could be something as little, or something like playing with your hair could be like a behavior that you go to [00:20:00] do. Like, oh, I'm checking out by playing a game, or
Rachel: or I'm on my phone. That can be, I think, a big one.
Crishelle: Yes. That's the one that came to mind for me.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: Oh, I'm anxious.
Rachel: Yeah,
Crishelle: I ran away from filling the blank thing I needed to be doing.
Rachel: right.
Crishelle: I feel like that's the obvious one for me but I loved that idea because I feel like even now there's a couple of things that I'm really trying to change about how I respond in my family, my family relationships with some of my siblings and That have been there forever, just like you just scrapped them, like, wow, awesome,
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: this is hard.
We're 32 years into this and I'm still struggling with it,
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: but I love this idea of observing even the physical responses of the event. And I think that's helpful because sometimes the emotional, I get so wrapped up in the emotions that[00:21:00] all of a sudden they all blend together. Like like I was anxious, I was frustrated, I was angry, like it all just like becomes a mesh of emotions and I can't even tease them out to find out which one started first.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: if I was able to, I'm really excited to try this, like to just... To apply this in this in this scenario in my life is is to just start noticing my physical reactions more Like even just how I'm breathing
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: I'm showing up Because that could maybe help me start identifying the emotions that lead to Behavior that I don't want
Rachel: Exactly. Yeah, and and I think what is I think why look checking with our bodies is so powerful is because we live in a world where we just want to understand and analyze everything. So our brain wants to be like, all right, I'm feeling anxious [00:22:00] and I'm feeling anxious because this happened and being able to really trace it back.
And I think that brings in a sense of control. That can be really helpful, but really what's happening is our body is dysregulated. Like our body is prepared for Action, whether that's fight, fight free. So if you have someone that's in a fight stance or in a fight mode, that's going to look like racing heart.
That's going to be like this, like that, that's me more anxiety. So it's going to be like this feeling of like, I got to go, go, go,
Crishelle: short breasts.
Rachel: short breaths. Yeah. Yeah. And it may not be like this physical, like I'm prepared for battle, but it can even just be as simple as like, Ooh, I'm noticing that like, I just can't quite sit still or I'm more
Crishelle: I'd like your fidgeting thing. Like that was so fast. And I was like, I wonder if I do like even something as little as that. It was just like,
Rachel: Exactly. So, and I think why this is so powerful is because our bodies will always tell us if we are dysregulated [00:23:00] quicker and sooner than our brains will like our bodies have so much information that our brains have not even realized yet. So if I can learn to check in with what my body is saying, it's going to give me information of how to proceed before my, brain may have caught up to the fact that I'm dysregulated.
So oftentimes people will get into this fight. Or flight, especially mode. And so, you know, flat flight may look like just like a total checkout. Like I can't deal with this or like, I just want to run away. And so being able to recognize what does that, what does that feel like my body? Do I just feel like this really, this part that's like, I can't handle this, or I just want to like shut off my phone and run away from the situation.
That that's. Telling us that we're dysregulated before our our brains know. So I think that's why this idea of checking in with our bodies is Really helpful
Crishelle: Okay. So I love this. I think this is so great. What I don't [00:24:00] want is for this to become another podcast that I listen to them like, sweet, I'm set. I'm going to change everything about my life.
Rachel: it.
Crishelle: Or like I just feel like because mental health is talked about so much, which hallelujah. Like hallelujah, we've normalized therapy, we've normalized working on yourself, normalized reading books that help you understand yourself and other people better.
That is a really big win for humanity. The pendulum swung so far that sometimes I feel like we just talk about all these things, kind of what you're saying, like it's all in our head, we're like talking about it. But like nothing's actually happening to change.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: So what I don't want in my life and everyone else's is for us to just be like, Oh, well, I'm just observing everything.
Like, how do I actually do the work for this to change? How do I actually change?
Rachel: Yeah. Well, that's a great question and it [00:25:00] is I think by change you mean like change the Like the state that someone is in or the, the response, like rather than giving a typical dysregulated response, what would a regulated response look like? So the thing, the thing that's really interesting is there's a a researcher named Dan Siegel and he talks about this idea of when we're dysregulated if someone's listening to, they're not going to be able to see what I'm.
Showing, but he, he talks about the brain being like if my thumb is like in my palm, that's my fight flight freeze, right? That's my, my amygdala. And then this, when my fists, my fingers come down over my thumbs and I'm making a fist with my thumb inside my fingers over top, that's my prefrontal cortex.
That's my, that's my prefrontal cortex. make decisions. It can learn, it can think clearly, it can plan for the future. This is, this is how a regulated person looks [00:26:00] right. The prefrontal cortex is engaged. When we're dysregulated, he calls it flipping our lid, which means our prefrontal cortex comes offline to some extent.
And now we're just being ruled by our flight, fight, freeze response. So the, what's challenging about this, and this is why it's. difficult to do things in real time is because we're not in a space where our prefrontal cortex is engaged and can learn, prepare, change, make new decisions. We're just going from this, like this part of us.
That's really. Young and, and immature and is just concerned about safety. So our goal, like before there can be anything that changes, we have to learn how to regulate our bodies. And
Crishelle: This is so awesome.
Rachel: yeah. And so that's like by bringing on our prefrontal cortex so that we can then choose something different. So this, this I think is, it's so, it's going to sound so simple, but it's, it's very challenging.
To actually do when we're [00:27:00] dysregulated. So. What, what this looks like is it's, it's literally helping our bodies slowly begin to regulate. And, like,
Crishelle: It sounds like it's helping our minds, like, check in with our bodies and regulate before all of a sudden our minds are like, Whoa.
Rachel: Right, right, right. Yeah, this, it's, it's as simple as that. as breathing. So when we are dysregulated, we'll find that our heart beats faster, but also our breath is shorter and higher up in our chest. Most of us breathe up in our chest anyway because we can get quicker, short. More efficient breaths, but when you look at a baby sleeping, they breathe down in their bellies, their bellies are contracting and expanding.
And I think this is a way that we are designed to breathe. In fact, when we're sleeping, this is the area that most of us will breathe down, down deep [00:28:00] into our bellies. So what we're wanting to do when we're dysregulated is we're wanting to help our butt. Like we're wanting to help signal to our nervous system.
Like, Hey, we're actually not in. Immediate danger where we need to fight, fight, or freeze. So what that's going to look like is it's going to be doing some sort of breathing that's going to help slow down our nervous system. So some people like something called box breathing, which is where you, you know, you're breathing in for, let's say six, you hold for six and you breathe out for six.
I like that one. What I would tweak with that is. Is exhaling for longer than you're inhaling. Why that's important is because the exhale is what's helping. It's helping everything slow down. So it's breathing in through our nose and let's say you're breathing in for six and then you hold for six and then you breathe out for. And you continue that breathing until you feel your body start to relax. Is the anxiety going to go away? No. Like, you're not going to be like, wow, I feel like a new person. [00:29:00] Generally not, but it will, it will slowly start to be able to bring on our prefrontal cortex. So then we feel like I can handle this, that now I can, I can think a little more clearly.
I can use some of these tools that I, that I know are helpful moving forward so that I can make a different decision. That, that's, what's the most important for some people. Doing like additional things that's bringing our bodies back into the room can be really helpful. So you can, I mean, this can be like looking around and like really noticing the detail of a leaf on a plant you have next to you, or it can be like holding something that you love, the smell of like maybe a candle and just really smelling and noticing what it smells like, or like grabbing a blanket and just like.
Really paying attention to the way that feels on your skin. Anything that's gonna help bring you back into your body is also really helpful.
Crishelle: Oh, I love this so much and it's interesting as you're saying this, I noticed things that I've picked up throughout my life, [00:30:00] years ago, that I just started doing because it was helpful.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: Like it helped me like come back to the present and that was like my go to is to find three things I'm grateful for and to take three deep breaths.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: When I notice and now, I just want to work on noticing before
Rachel: right,
Crishelle: sooner.
Rachel: right.
Crishelle: But that's so, it's so beautiful because it really can be that simple.
While you've been listening to this episode, there's probably been things that have come to mind that you are proud of. You're proud of the way that you have regulated and that you've learned to adapt and to regulate and to come back to. that space where you can make good choices as opposed to the fire flight.
But then there's probably things that have come to mind that you're like, uh, I'm still struggling. And I hope you just give yourself some grace and know that this is a lifelong journey. And that there's going to be things that will maybe feel easier and, and [00:31:00] quicker to adapt and change. And then there's going to be things that are going to take more resources and help to change.
And in fact, that is what Relay is for. Relay is an incredible app designed by my friend Chandler. For people to have the help that they need when they start noticing. I am dysregulated. I am triggered. I am using old coping mechanisms like pornography when And I don't, I don't know how to change and shift that right now, and I need more support.
And it's, it's so great. It's a group recovery based app where it connects you with a group that is there to cheer you on and to be with you every step of the way. will always be right there anytime you need on your phone. It also has some incredible tools designed by therapists right there for you to use and to help you with.
For example, we talked about box breathing. It's got a great reminder and meditation on how to use box breathing.[00:32:00] It's got a lot of tools to help you come back to a space of peace and regulation and, and that, that whole brain space
So check out Relay. Use the link in the show notes to start a free trial and see if it helps you come back to a space of regulation that helps you make the choices that you really want in your life as opposed to falling back into those old coping skills
Crishelle: my friend, you got this. Take a deep breath. You're doing great. You're doing way better than you think you are and you can change.
Okay. So I had another question and hopefully I'm not jumping ahead. And, and if, if I am, go ahead and bring me back. But one question I had is if someone has had a lot of trauma or.
Yeah, a lot of trauma and trauma like being defined as like things that happen to you that you did not have the coping skills to deal with at a young age [00:33:00] or really any age but like especially at a young age that's how I would define what I'm talking about.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: If you've had a lot of trauma, are you going to have more dysregulation? Maybe. Does that make sense? Like, will that, like, or if you, like, your core beliefs as a child, like, if those are getting poked at more and you have more dysregulation happening, is that just, like, do you need to go back and, like, address that in therapy for you to even be able to regulate? Or can the regulation help you address that? I hope that made
Rachel: great. Great question. So I would say that I would say that that Everyone to some extent is dysregulated, like most of us go throughout our day, not quite regulated. I think that people who have experienced big traumatic events, especially as children, will probably have more triggers that trigger Yeah, [00:34:00] trigger, trigger the dysregulation and that the dysregulation may look like have more extreme responses.
So that person may go to more extreme behaviors to try to help not feeling so dysregulated, like maladaptive behaviors. But I don't know if I would say that they're more dysregulated than somebody else's.
Crishelle: and that was kind of my question. It's like, okay, like say I didn't have any like big t trauma or like does that mean that I'm fine, but I think that what you're saying is if I'm hearing you right and correct me if I'm wrong is that I'm fine. We're all
Rachel: Yeah,
Crishelle: and what we're working on is because like life comes out as quick, life happens fast and the stressors all the time around us.
Right. And the more we can come back and regulate our bodies, the more we're going to be able to respond with our whole [00:35:00] brain, as opposed to just our fight and flight.
Rachel: right. Absolutely. And
Crishelle: like, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're like a broken, hurt individual, but that's just kind of a factor of life is that we're dysregulated.
Rachel: yeah, I, I, I think that that's, I don't know if everyone's always walking around dysregulated, but I
Crishelle: So that's why I'm just trying to understand.
Rachel: Like, I think that, hmm. I think that like someone's base line may or may not be dysregulated. I, I more mean of like, everyone has events that are going to dysregulate them and the things that dysregulate you are gonna be things that are probably different than what will dysregulate me and vice versa.
And so that doesn't mean that you are more regular than I am, it just means that, I like that you have things that are triggering to you that are not triggering to me. And so I think it comes down to like, all right, so what are my specific areas that I get triggered around and what does it look like?
And [00:36:00] what, what can be tricky about that is sometimes the The spaces where we are dysregulated, we may not recognize that as dysregulation because we often think about dysregulation as like, I lost my cool and I started yelling at somebody or I I just got super anxious and And couldn't function the next day.
Definitely. Those are signs of dysregulation, but things can also be much more subtle. So it can be something like, Ooh, I noticed that when I'm dysregulated, I crack a lot of jokes. Like I want to try to make people laugh so that I can know, Oh, this person likes me. And I feel connection with them and.
Does that mean that that's something I need to change? I don't know. I mean, does this is this impacting my life or the lives of someone else in a negative way? Maybe, maybe not. So it's figuring out like what behaviors of mine are adaptive and what are maladaptive and,
Crishelle: Interesting. Okay.
Rachel: And deciding, deciding from there.
Crishelle: [00:37:00] That's good to know, right? Because there's going to be some that are helpful and that work are very adaptive and are working great for you, but there's also going to be some when you're dysregulated that are not. And that's what we want to work on identifying and being aware of.
Rachel: right.
Crishelle: Okay, so you mentioned that we're all going to have different kinds of triggers.
Rachel: Mm hmm.
Crishelle: Would you say that do we also have different, like, levels or thresholds of what we can handle as far as dysregulation?
Rachel: Yeah. So this idea is what we call window of tolerance. And the reason why I like this explanation is because I think it, it, I'm probably more visual person. And so it's make, it makes it easier to visualize, but it's this idea that we all have a certain amount of a trigger we can handle. And by that, I mean, there's Like, when I'm saying handle, I don't mean where it's going to be activating or not, because a trigger is always going to be activating.[00:38:00]
I mean, does it throw me outside of my window of tolerance? And when I'm outside my window of tolerance, that, that's going to look like more of that fight, fight, fight, fight, freeze behavior. So if I'm And also when my lid is flipped, right? Where I'm not able to think things through critically. So, let's say that there's a specific trigger I have where there's like an inch where like really if anything happens that reminds me of that trigger or is that trigger, I'm gone. That That's tricky because that's a lot of time of trying to get back to regulation, back to regulation, back to regulation. So what we also want to work on doing is helping that tolerance be bigger so that, like, let's say something happens, and this is where therapy can be really helpful, that can help really increase that amount of tolerance.
Where it's like, you know, that may have really dysregulated me before, but I, I still feel upset or I feel Or I feel like sort of triggered, but I'm able to still engage my prefrontal cortex. I'm able to say [00:39:00] like, okay, hang on, how can I look at this differently or how can I approach this differently?
I'm triggered and I'm not dysregulated. So. Triggers
Crishelle: I think, I think what you're saying too, and, and help me under make sure I'm understanding this and seeing it correctly, is that instead of just events happening to us and us like losing it or being and, and like being acted upon, we then can, like the event can happen, we can feel all of the emotions.
It doesn't mean that like the pain. The pain is still there,
Rachel: Right. Right.
Crishelle: like the anxiety, the stress, the feeling like you're not worth it, like what feeling like all of the feelings are still there. But instead of just being like reacting to that and being acted upon by the triggering event, we rather than can engage and say, okay, I'm feeling this and take action towards.
Changing that or take action [00:40:00] towards remedying or finding healing or solutions. So that,
Rachel: Exactly. Right. Yeah, let me give an example that might help illustrate this. I a couple years ago had a family member that I, I felt like they were just Really taking advantage of, of me and my generosity. So you know so I would get really dysregulated when they came around, cause I felt like that they just were demanding a lot of things from me and they were expecting a lot for me when I was like, I've got my own things I'm trying to do and I can't just drop everything and help you again today.
So when this family member come around, I would get very dysregulated. And for me, that would look like I would get really, I would get really anxious when they're coming over. And then when they were over, I was so hyper focused on what was or wasn't happening. I could not. enjoy the relationship at all.
And so anytime this family member said anything, I would like, I would just snap and be like, [00:41:00] no, you know, and get so like like tight around it. And so when I realized that this was, I'm like, this is gonna, this is going to really impact my relationship with this, with this family member. So I need to do some work around this.
As I started to work around this, I found that Every time this person comes around I still get triggered. I still am like, Oh, you're driving me crazy. But at the same time, I feel like I'm able to be like, Hey, you know what? Okay. How do I want to handle this? If I'm thinking about who the person I want to be, the relationship I want with this person, how do I best respond?
And really being able to respond from that area rather than just being reactive.
Crishelle: And I think, I mean, I think I, I was just, as you were sharing that, I was like transferred to my relationship, my family that I'm like, seriously, every time this person comes around, I'm like,
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: Not showing up the way I want to show up. But as I think back to my last experience with this person, I was like, Oh, 1000 [00:42:00] percent I was not breathing.
Like I was like shallow breathing.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: And even just like taking a big deep breath, 17
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: for many I need would help me to pause and not just be like, respond in the way that is not working for our relationship. And would help me to feel more grounded and safe in the relationship as opposed to ungrounded and unsafe.
Which is why I'm like, freaking out, right? So I think that that's such a beautiful thing. That really, like, the physical response of just being aware of our body and how our body's feeling can bring so much awareness and choice. As opposed to like, oh well it's because they said this and then I said this and like, hyper focusing on the like, mental part of the relationship. [00:43:00] Wow! Interesting! So interesting and freeing
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: to be able to like, come back into my body.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And this comes back to what we were saying before is there's usually a part of us that doesn't want to regulate, that just doesn't want to change. And so, it, what we're talking about sounds good, but when we are talking about the actual application, it's difficult because there is a part of us that's saying like, I don't know.
Disregulation for me really works with this person. It helps me feel safe. I know it's predictable. I know what to do. I know what I'll say. I know what they'll say. This is how we do it. It's, it's difficult to, to change. So I think that this is where this second idea is really, really important. It's helping our.
Our, like our part that's worried about us changing to really understand, like, honestly, [00:44:00] it's going to suck. I don't know if I can say that on here, but like, this is, this is going to be really hard and I can handle it. Like whatever happens. I can handle because I have already been through the worst of it.
So even if I'm at a level 10 of anxiety and I feel like I can't do this, that's not true. I can handle this and I have skills. I have abilities of things I know can regulate me and I can handle this. So that's why this part often doesn't want to change is because it believes that we can't handle it then it's like if we don't have this behavior, you can't handle it.
You're going to crumble. You may even die is how far that part takes it. So being able to, to say like, I get that, I get that we're feeling really anxious about this and worried about changing. I also can handle this because I'm an adult now I've grown up and I have. I have tools available to me [00:45:00] that will help me handle this better than I did when I was a kid.
And to really be able to reassure that part. So that it feels like you can handle it. Cause you can.
Crishelle: Right. Oh, I love that. And speaking to that inner child of like, yeah, there was once upon a time in my life when, yeah, this probably was out of my, out of my scope, but I'm, I'm bigger now. I have grown up. I am braver.
Rachel: Right. Right.
Crishelle: And I think that's a really, really beautiful and helpful conversation to have with yourself. I'm going to have that conversation a lot with myself. Oh, that's so good. Okay, I want to, I want to break this down into like three, maybe four, however many steps it can be. Just like, let's step it out just to make it really clear.
So step one, step one?
Rachel: Yeah. So I would say step one is Identifying[00:46:00] where I get triggered and what behaviors am I wanting to change because if I can't articulate those, or I don't know, I don't know what they look like for me, then that's going to be really challenging to change. So I think it's getting really clear on what is it that I'm wanting to be different.
And maybe that's writing it down. Maybe that's telling somebody, but it's, it's, it's getting that out and just saying, these are the things I'm, I'm recognizing I do these. Maybe I'll get into why, maybe not, but for now I'm just recognizing that I do them and these are the behaviors I'm wanting to change.
Crishelle: I love too that you're like, you don't have to know why initially and you might never even have to know why.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: That's also very freeing to me.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Crishelle: Sometimes I'm like, well, I need to know why I do that.
Rachel: Right. Yeah.
Crishelle: Okay, so love that. So step one, identify what it is you want to change and like what's triggering it. Step number two,[00:47:00]
Rachel: Step two would be gathering data. So it's, okay, what happens when I do this behavior? What are the things that happened before, during, and after? This, this particular behavior and what, like collecting as much data as possible. Be that emotion scientist. And again, I think it can be really helpful to like literally write it down.
I mean, have like a field journal to be like, I noticed that when I, you know, when this behavior comes up, this is why this is what's happening. This is what my body does. This is what this is what it looks like for me and, and gathering that very, very concretely.
Crishelle: and not with judgment of like, I did the right thing or they did the wrong thing or they like just
Rachel: Right. There's no right or wrong. This is just what, what is, and yeah, we're trying to understand that. So I would,
Crishelle: three.
Rachel: yeah, step three. Yeah. So step three, Ooh, step three, I would [00:48:00] say, okay. So with these particular behaviors, what like now that I know what behaviors, like what the data that follows this or camera, now that I know, What data there is around this.
Is there anything that I can do that will help me do preventative work. So let's say that I know that anytime, going back to my example, anytime this family member comes around, I just, I know I'm going to be dysregulated. I know it's a challenge for me when they're around. So maybe the morning before they come, or the day before they come, or even a week before they come, what can I do to help start my body from a more regulated spot?
So it's kind of like I think of it like a car where let's say there's a car driving along the road and a tire blows Like you have to pull over and take care of that car [00:49:00] Otherwise because you can't drive on it anymore. So that's what it's like when we are dysregulated and then we have to address Like, Oh, I'm dysregulated.
And now I've got to do something about it. What I'm talking about here is what can I do to keep my car as in tip top shape? So do I need to get my oil changed? I need to rotate my tires. Do I need to clean out the inside? Like what is it that I need to do to help set myself up for success? So an example of maybe a family member coming around.
All right, so. The morning before they come over, I'm gonna do this really long walk by myself and I'm going to listen to really calming music and I'm going to focus on my breathing, and then I'm gonna come home and I'm gonna journal because I know that those are really helpful for me. I'm gonna journal about my fears, about my concerns, about my frustrations.
I'm gonna get it all out. And what that does is it begins to set us up for success with that experience. I would say that helps. Open up [00:50:00] the window of tolerance around that. Where it's like, I'm probably still going to be triggered when they're around. But I'm, but I can handle it. Like, I've, I've, I've done some prep work to prepare for that.
Crishelle: Beautiful. Would it also be like This person's going to be around all day. Maybe I'm going to go take a little break
Rachel: Great. Yep.
Crishelle: I am going to give myself, I'm going to go on an afternoon walk,
Rachel: Yes. Yeah,
Crishelle: give myself some space to come back to regulation to like give. Give yourself an out. And that's really helpful.
I think when, when, you know, there's going to be a triggering event, I wonder it would probably be really helpful for me to evaluate my day of just being like, wow. Okay. By the end of the day or around five 30, I'm like done.
Rachel: Mm hmm.
Crishelle: What can I do to set myself up for success before, during and after. That specific stressful time that happens routinely.
Whether or not like it's a specific [00:51:00] person showing up or a specific event. That's what you mean,
Rachel: Mm hmm. Yeah, so not so it can be not even just well, it can be More than just events. We know are gonna be triggering but like looking for patterns. So I love what you said. I Know that like six o'clock To 7. 30 or 8 are just going to be very stressful for me because it's the witching hour and my daughter is a witch at that time.
So, so for me, it's like, okay, I know during that time. It's a struggle for me to stay regulated. I'm so short with the people around me. I get frustrated very easily. So, before she wakes up from her last nap, what do I need to do? Do I need some time to do some deep breathing? Do I need some time to close my nervous system down?
Anything like that that I know is going to be helpful for my regulation for that particular. Disregulating time of the day.
Crishelle: And maybe it's like finals [00:52:00] or
Rachel: Yeah,
Crishelle: it could be anything in your
Rachel: right, right.
Crishelle: yeah. Oh, beautiful. What a great way to look at that. Okay. Step. That was step three. Was that step three or step four?
Rachel: That was step three.
Crishelle: Oh, step three. Step four.
Rachel: So step four is what to do in real time. Like, because obviously we can't predict every dysregulation. And so let's say that an
unexpected trigger
Or just like something's gonna happen and you get some bad news or You don't like, yeah, something that like, just, you can't prepare for it and plan for.
So, step four really is saying like, when those things happen, when my tire does blow out, and I'm left on the side of the road, what do I need? Like, what are the things I need to do? And that's talking about that re regulation, right? So that's, that's the point of being like, I need to take some deep breaths.
I didn't foresee this coming. I know that I'm dysregulated because I can see the [00:53:00] data surrounding it. I can see myself doing those behaviors. I'm wanting to change how can I regulate and really practicing those regulation skills. And yeah, so let's say that step four.
Crishelle: Love it. Step five. Is there step five?
Rachel: Well, I would say step five is constantly adjust. So just like a scientist is going to always be collecting new and more data. We're, we're always growing and changing. So we can be like, Ooh. This was not working for me. Like I thought it was me regulating for me to listen to music, but that was, that did not help.
So what do I need to, what else can I do? That's going to be regulating. Or I found this to be really, really helpful. And so I'm going to continue to build this out more and be more intentional with this new behavior or this specific way to move forward. And so. Honestly, I would say that like delving into the whys of the behaviors like you were bringing up. [00:54:00] Whys can, like learning why can always provide context and that can be helpful, but I think we get hyper focused on the whys and the past and so if we're using in a way to gather data and then we're applying that data, I think that's great. But if it's just As a way to skirt around actually doing the work of changing, that's where it gets a little it may not be as helpful.
So sure, I think that there's always a time and a place to dig into the why. Maybe that's part of the data collecting phase, is looking at like, where in my childhood did I first feel that way? But that can be left in phase two. I don't think it always needs to be brought up in phase five.
Crishelle: Yeah, I like that because I think for me, sometimes I've, I've seen myself be like, Oh, well this is me just responding that way because that's how I am
Rachel: Right,
Crishelle: when I understand the why
Rachel: right, [00:55:00] right,
Crishelle: and using it as my excuse of not having to change and show up in a better and more mature and like actually, yeah, show up the way I want to show up.
I think also what I was, I What I want to remind us all of is that we can, we can change. You are big enough, you are, you're braver today than you were yesterday. You can do it different. You can handle the uncomfortableness that will come when you do something different. Because it will be better. And I think, I think of, if you want something different, you have to do something different.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: And, and so, it's worth doing something different, especially if you have something in your life that you don't want to be that way
anymore. Because you can't change the other person. You can only change you. You can't change the world events. You can't change as much as we probably all would like to at some level and in some way.
We can't [00:56:00] change our environment. But we can change us, which will change your environment,
which is a beautiful thing. Very beautiful thing.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think it's also really important to note that when we're changing behavior, it is, I can say with pretty much 100 percent certainty that anxiety will increase, that we will get much, much more anxious as We're practicing or working on changing this behavior, which makes sense, right?
Because in the past we're doing behaviors that are mitigating some of the anxiety. And so it feels like, well, I don't feel as anxious when I'm doing this. So when we're changing the behavior, you better believe you're going to be very, very anxious. But I think that's where it's important to remember because I'm feeling more anxious does not mean that I'm doing anything wrong.
And. When I feel more anxious, I know I can handle that anxiety. I know I can, [00:57:00] I know I can handle it. And
Crishelle: And again, focus on what you want instead of the behavior that you had done,
Rachel: yeah, yeah,
Crishelle: I'm choosing to respond differently because I want a better relationship with this person, not to be so snappy or
Rachel: well and and just like because I want to like I would even say like because I Want to be somebody that I respect like I just don't respect that I snap to people I do I don't respect that myself. And so I there's like a higher value here then Then like that that's pushing me to change and also as it As a side note, there's research around the idea that emotions only have a lifespan of 90 seconds.
That's it. The reason why they last longer is because we attacked meaning to it, which generally the meaning is. Oh no, I can't handle this, like I can't handle this and, and also it's going to be here [00:58:00] forever. This feeling is going to be here forever. So and ironically, that's what makes it last longer. So recognizing this isn't going to last forever, feelings come and go, and I can handle this can really help us stay, like stay, even when we feel like the anxiety is growing more and more.
Crishelle: Oh, even that, right? I could, I could breathe for 90 seconds. It's
Rachel: Right? Right.
Crishelle: too sharp ass. It will come and it will go. Oh, I love that. And I, I mean, I. I think this is so helpful and the other thing I've not always done the work perfectly in my life quote unquote the work, right? I I'm I am working. I'm I'm doing this there are things today that we've talked about I'm like, wow, I want to do that better I want to do that different and I can't wait to work and be more anxious.
This is being so fun
Rachel: Of course.
Crishelle: And I know in the past when I have done work and I have changed and I have been really uncomfortable in the [00:59:00] things that I've changed my relationships got better and guess what the other person Started showing up different and, and like, the triggering events got better because, , I got better.
, I, I changed and, and then the triggering events showed up different and, or even went away. Right? So it is so worth doing the work. It's so worth changing. And you can change. Oh, Rachel, this has been beautiful. Thank you so much.
Rachel: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
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