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A relatable and honest podcast about the highs and lows of being a youth hockey parent. Join us as we share real stories, struggles, and wins from the rink, offering insights and support for parents navigating the world of youth hockey.
This is for the sled dogs in the trenches. Real hockey parents, real stories. The Good and the Gong Show. No filters, no sugarcoating, no politics, just straight hockey talk, and the best guests around the barn. Welcome to the Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast.
Intro:Alright, boys. Grind them corners, chirp responsibly, and bring that savage fire.
Jamie:Everybody. Welcome back to episode 55 of the Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast, and thank you to Big John Dengles for the intro. We're trying something new here, so thank you to Big John Dengles. You can find him at Big John Dengles' Instagram. And, Scott Buddy.
Jamie:Yo. About that USA Hockey?
Scott:It's it's really unbelievable. I mean Yeah. It's Really?
Jamie:Game is it? Whose game is it? Who? So it's
Scott:It's definitely our game.
Jamie:Wait. Wait. Who's game is it out there, guys? Whose game? That's our game.
Jamie:Oh, okay. That's what that's our game. Yeah.
Scott:Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen. They didn't come without a lot of, like, holding breath and, like, on the edge of the seat, like, craziness for us USA fans. That was not exactly, the most evenly played match, but
Jamie:No. No, it wasn't us.
Scott:We it was not. But listen, we did enough we did enough for them not to score, and they didn't do enough to score. So at the end of the day, that's how sports go. The best team doesn't always win. And sometimes, you know, just it's who converts on the big chances, you know, regardless of how the rest of the game goes.
Scott:And and we did. And and we did. Crazy crazy.
Jamie:They didn't. And they did not. That's right. So and we will get to that in a second, but first, let's do our partners. Why not?
Jamie:Right? Let's get that out the Do
Scott:it up.
Jamie:So we have Howie's Hockey Crazy 10 for your 10% discount. Go get your tape, laces, gear, Scott's favorite, the candle, the wax, the different types of wax they have, the yellow handled scissors, that we use to cut everything around our house. Yeah, man. I love Howie's hockey. So go go go use our discount, crazy 10 for 10% off your Howie's hockey gear.
Scott:Get it from Howie's, and let's give a shout out to coach Kevin at hockey training dot com. One of our new sponsors here on Crazy Hockey Dads. If you want your kids to get quicker hands, faster feet, or stronger stride, you gotta check out hockeytraining.com. Coach Kevin's got a a extensive library of off ice training, both like stick handling drills. He's even got virtual stick handling classes, but a ton of exercises to get your kids and you beer leaguers, adult leaguers, however you want to refer to yourselves.
Scott:He also has a men's league domination program, anyone who's my looking to do favorite men's league domination 23. What's up? What's up? Anyway, we yeah, know, but like this is great stuff to do at home. You don't need to get to a rink.
Scott:You can do it in your backyard garage in your house, but work on all sorts of speed, strength, agility that translates to on ice performance and stick handling drills and classes that are that are awesome just to keep you sharp and keep you going.
Matt:Yeah. Coach Kevin's great.
Jamie:He's he he is what what's his his website again, Scott? It's what?
Scott:He's hockeytraining.com.
Jamie:.Com. Yep. And hockeytraininghq is his Instagram handle. Right?
Scott:Yeah. So check out coach Kevin.
Matt:Right.
Jamie:Yeah. Coach Kevin's great. And then we also have Titan battle gear for you parents that are looking to protect your kids and have them look good on the ice, right, while doing it.
Scott:About the sty plus protection.
Jamie:All about the
Scott:sty Probably in other plus order. Probably
Jamie:Probably. Probably the other order. Yeah. But you can get both with Titan battle gear, which is the nice A
Scott:100%.
Jamie:Right? So go get your Titan battle gear base layers. They have all awesome colors, but the but the most important part that is safe for your children. We spend a lot of money on this game. We want to make sure our kids are safe.
Jamie:So go to titanbattlegear.com. Can go to titanbattlegear.com/crazyhockey. Backslash crazyhockeydads. And use the code crazydads10 for 10% off your Titan Battle Gear base layer, the safest base layer on the market in my opinion.
Scott:Yep. There you go. Yep. And athletic performance insight. Well, for many of us well, some of us are playing in the playoffs, some of us probably
Jamie:That's good.
Scott:Have a few practices left, but I know we're all thinking about next season. So, for any coaches or managers out there, all dude, it's already been at least a month since next season's been in high gear. But, you know, those that are planning ahead, check out athletic performance insight. If anyone out there has been thinking about doing video review and analytics for your team, Eric's got a wonderful platform that can be appropriate for the youngest of age groups. I used it with Otto and his team when they were mites, and they've got all the way up to college, teams using the platform.
Scott:So reach out to Eric on athleticperformanceinsight.com. Use the, what was it, the contact form, and Yep. He'll happily give you a demo of the of the software and also tag a game for free. So if you mention Crazy Hockey Dads, you'll get a discount on your season subscription if you move forward for next year, and yeah, it's awesome. It's great, great visual learning tool for teams and individuals.
Jamie:Yeah. Eric's great. He's got a really robust platform. Awesome stuff.
Scott:Yep. That's right.
Jamie:So, Jack fucking Hughes. Jack
Scott:fucking Hughes. Unreal. I mean Dude, so talk about two players that got them into the semis and then won the gold for them that weren't even part of Four Nations. Granted, Canada didn't have Crosby, so that was, you know, whatever. But dude, these this Hughes family, oh my Lord.
Jamie:Yeah, man.
Scott:They're doing something right over there.
Jamie:The I mean, listen. I mean, if you I saw a graphic at the end that showed the Kochuck brothers and the Hughes brothers, and I think Quinn had eight points. I think he I think he led the the the entire Olympics with eight well, for the for the US team with eight points. I wanna say Jack had seven, like, four four goals, three assists, or vice versa. And then, like, Matthew was, like, plus five with, like Yeah.
Jamie:Three or four points, and then Brady was, like, three goals, three assists or something like that. I mean, the four of them. I mean, my goodness. You know? I mean,
Matt:the hard hard
Scott:good and Certainly from the spectators perspective.
Jamie:Oh, my goodness. It was tremendous. And it was nice to see Jack because Jack, in my opinion, was kind of nonexistent for Four Nations, right? May be a little bit of a learning curve for him playing best on best, right?
Scott:Yeah, he was not very effective. You didn't hear his name a lot. He didn't get as much ice time. But this tournament, he looked like the best on best version of himself.
Jamie:Totally different. He looked totally different. And us missing Quinn for Four Nations, saw how he Quinn led our entire team in ice time. By like
Scott:was unreal.
Jamie:By like twenty five minutes. Mean, nobody was close to him in
Scott:ice time. But I I wanna say, not and I'm certainly not turning it over to Canada right now, but or I guess I I just the ice time thing brought this up. When I was watching their semifinal game against Czechia, and I I was astonished at how much ice time Celebrini was getting. Yeah. And I told my wife, I'm like, you don't understand.
Scott:This guy this they did not take this kid off the ice. And then come to find out that he led the team. Usually, it's a defenseman that leads the team in ice time.
Jamie:Like Quinn Hughes, yeah.
Scott:Like when he Celebrini led that team in ice
Jamie:ice time. That's surprising. That's I know when you said that to me, that was really surprising.
Scott:Unless I misheard, like, you know, whatever was and and I could I I certainly leave the door open to being wrong because it seems crazy that that would be true, but Right. If I heard correctly, that, you know, that's just unreal. That kid is so young and just was so clutch for that team, but not clutch enough. -No. -Just not clutch enough.
Scott:Couldn't bury on his breakaway. McDavid couldn't bury. Taves couldn't put it behind Helle Buck's stick.
Jamie:-My God. -That save was insane.
Scott:-Charlie McEvoy stuffing, who is it, Wilson in that net
Jamie:front scramble
Scott:with the chest.
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah.
Scott:Jeez, man.
Jamie:Dude, it was it was it was a very listen, I was jumping up and down like a schoolgirl when we won. It was ridiculous. I'm sorry. I didn't have a camera on me because I must have looked like a seven year old bouncing up and down in front the television, you know, but I mean, we finally finally fucking beat them, dude. Finally.
Jamie:I mean, my God.
Scott:I know. And you know what?
Jamie:It was
Scott:Oh, go ahead.
Jamie:No, you're good.
Scott:No, I just I think that I feel like there was and we've talked about this already, but the you know, you hear people and other, like, you know, you read comments or whatever saying the better team didn't win and, like, you know, people are, you know, poking at the three on three and, you know, all of those things. And and look, if I had a vote, I wouldn't I would have voted for five on five, you know, instead of three on three in overtime. That certainly ended up favoring The United States. You know, if you were to put money on McDavid scoring on a breakaway, you know, and then Celebrini, you know, and McKinnon on an open net, like, would you would think that these guys are gonna bury in a game like this. Right?
Jamie:You would think so.
Scott:But it didn't happen. And then and then on it didn't happen. We came up bigger in those moments for whatever reason, and then we also killed the five on three.
Jamie:Oh, God. I was having a meltdown during the
Scott:I mean, we killed that. That was unreal. That
Jamie:was frightening, by the way. Like, frightening.
Scott:Will say they did miss that they did miss that too many men on the ice penalty.
Jamie:They did.
Scott:They missed that second one of the tournament, but listen, nonetheless Mhmm. They had their opportunities. I don't think if you're Canada, you can really be, like, you know, say you say what you want, but you guys just came up short.
Jamie:That's all. Listen Came up short. If they play that game 10 times, my guess is that The US doesn't doesn't come out with with five or six wins. Right?
Scott:Yeah. And I you know, if I yeah, know. Would agree. I I'm pretty sure I'd agree with that.
Jamie:Right. I mean,
Scott:if it was like best of seven.
Jamie:Yeah. The ice was very tilted. Right? I mean, it was very it was very tilted. But you know what?
Jamie:Like you said, sometimes the best team doesn't win. You know, there there was a an anchor that was kinda like blowing up Canada. He's like he's like, look. He's like, see. He's like, see.
Jamie:Look. Look at this roster. He's like he's like, The US doesn't have a roster like this. He's like, sorry, USA. He's like, but this is ridiculous.
Jamie:He's like, you can't compete with this. And, you know, you can compete with it. Sometimes the pump doesn't go in the net. Sometimes the goalie stands on his head. Sometimes the stars are just aligned.
Jamie:Right? That's why they play the game. They don't play the game on paper.
Scott:Yeah. You know? No. Without a doubt. And I also thought it was so interesting how, like, the the, you know, The US for for so long, they they couldn't even break out of their zone.
Scott:Like, the day the the number of times they just flipped the puck up in the air either for an icing or just to get it out of the zone so they could regroup and then go right back to playing defense. You know, it was like five on five, and they were like they're respecting like the three man, like, umbrella on top for Canada on their blue on the, United States' defensive blue line. And they they they were just they they had to respect the speed. No one wanted to get burned. They were just playing not to lose, and it was scary for a long time.
Jamie:Five on five, it actually looked like they were having they were on a power play.
Matt:I know.
Jamie:It was scary. It was scary. You're right. I mean, with every shot at the net, my heart was in my stomach,
Scott:you know? Yeah. But then we also had like what Brock Nelson hit double poster, right, it was Nelson?
Jamie:I thought it was McAvoy.
Scott:Hit it was McAvoy that went
Jamie:Yeah, think I thought McAvoy hit it from the I think he went it was like was like left post crossbar right post out. It was like bing binging out.
Scott:Whatever it was.
Jamie:I mean, I thought it was McAvoy from the point, from the right point that shot that. I mean, but like, my god. You know?
Scott:And then look, Lou, Boldy?
Jamie:Oh, dude.
Scott:One It up was against their top D pair.
Jamie:He I mean, he had to, like, juggle the puck in the air to get through them.
Scott:Good for him.
Jamie:I mean, that that was when that went in, like, you felt something special could be happening. Yes. Right? To to go up
Scott:one those feelings those feelings went away.
Jamie:They were there for a while. They did go away when Kehl Mccar tied the game up at one. Good shot.
Scott:That was a great shot.
Jamie:Great shot. Right above the pad, under the blocker. Real nice shot. I mean, not not shocking coming from him at all. Right?
Jamie:You expect it to come from a guy like that. I mean, man, you know, and then Hellebuck did the save on Taves was like well, first it was the save on McDavid, right? Forgot who was back checking McDavid,
Scott:then Celebrini.
Jamie:Then Celebrini. Then when was Taves? Was it Taves right after that when Hellebuck made that save? Think the first
Scott:one yeah.
Jamie:The first one looked like he made the save with his skate. And then like and then all of a sudden the rebound, he sticks his stick out.
Scott:Yeah. Like reaches behind himself. Didn't give up on the play.
Jamie:No. I mean, like, dude, what? Like, what?
Scott:I know. I mean, like Even like Oh, go ahead.
Jamie:No. I wasn't gonna say anything. I am just shocked.
Scott:No. And and even just like if you go back to those different opportunities, like McDavid, like, one too many stick handles, like, ended up on top of the goalie. He couldn't even get anything clean off, which Yes. Sucked for him. Then then it looked like Celebrini, like, his shot was, like, near side, low, like it was an easy kick save.
Scott:You gotta think like he just didn't get what he wanted on it because it was not in like, you know, maybe he's trying to go five hole shot at wide, maybe he couldn't try to go
Jamie:over You're talking about the the breakaway?
Scott:Celebrini's. Yeah.
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah. McDavid had somebody barreling down on him. I don't know who it was, and just kinda got, like, too close to to Hellebuck, and it just didn't right. It just didn't materialize.
Jamie:Yeah. Celebrini listen, Celebrini took he took ownership of that after
Scott:the game.
Jamie:Do hear the interview with him? He said like, yeah, and he said like, he's a guy just didn't get done. He's and he said it and he said I wanted to get it done for Sid. He's like, the guys respect Sid so much are locker. We wanted to get it done for him.
Jamie:Like that kid also is saying all the right things.
Scott:Yeah.
Jamie:Right? I mean, like, he's so young and so talented man. When I heard him say that, wow, this kid has his head screwed on straight. Right?
Scott:Yeah. Or either that or has really good media coaching.
Jamie:Yeah. Fair. Listen.
Scott:But yeah. Probably. Right? Most of his interviews are of that, you know, he he doesn't he doesn't drink Gato and Chill.
Jamie:He does not drink Gato and Chill. Speaking of drinking Gato and Chill, I give Jack Hughes a lot of a lot of credit for what he said after the game, man. Yeah. Again, said all the right things, you know, was asked about like how I think I I think the the interviewer asked asked him, like, she asked first the first question. The second question was, like, how do you feel about winning the gold medal or something like that?
Jamie:It was it was a personal question to him. And the first thing he said was hellbuckers, our best player tonight. Yeah. He he he was even talking about himself, You know? Good for him.
Jamie:He he talked about the team. He talked about how much he loves United States and how proud he was to be an American. I mean
Scott:Dude, that the interview was great, but if you kinda like rewind, just going like think of the Hughes brothers, Quinn almost ended it in overtime first. Like, Binnington
Jamie:made that glove save
Scott:that went like didn't go through his glove, but
Jamie:he No. But he got Binnington couldn't hang
Scott:on to it. No. You know?
Jamie:I I thought the game was over right there.
Scott:Yeah. You were like, oh, man.
Jamie:I I thought that was the game.
Scott:When I knew that they so I didn't think that they honestly, didn't think they had a chance to to win it in five on five. I was just, like, hoping that they were gonna get to overtime because that's a totally different game, three on three than five on five. It that that that transition or that change, like, so benefited The United States.
Jamie:It it it did. It did. There's there's no question about it. You know? If we'd had to go five on five, that would have been scarier.
Jamie:Listen. Not like three on three is not scary. I mean, you know, you get guys like Makar, McKinnon, and McDavid out there. That's frightening. Like, I I mean, right, I don't care who you run out there from The United States.
Jamie:You run out Jack Hughes, Quinn Hughes, and Jack Eichel, or, like, Austin Matthews and and Jack Eichel and Quinn Hughes. Still But that Canadian three are frightening.
Scott:Yeah. But it's just a different it's so much it becomes so much more a man on man as opposed to any type of, like, systematic play, you know, in a lot of ways. So when you're playing man on man and you get burned, your guy beats you, your your team's at a deficit. You know what I mean? So it's like, you can't necessarily rely on people like like gapping up and sliding and shift you know, it's it's a different it's a different
Jamie:animal, That's like three on fair. I'll say that. You know? But you know what? Listen.
Jamie:No.
Scott:Listen. I'm not complaining. I'm just saying like, if it you know, I it it's clear that there are things events that happened in that game that were unbelievable that Canada didn't capitalize so, fortunate for The United States. And the three on three was also something that benefited them, but at the end of the day, people can say what they want, The United States ended up winning.
Jamie:Did you remember the play? We get on Austin Matthews a lot for not being McDavid scoring and, right, being the USA captain. Did you see when McDavid came down? I wanna say it was on Jack Hughes.
Scott:Yep. And When he came out of the box.
Jamie:It was I was in the three on three. It was three it was in the overtime. It was three on Oh, it
Scott:in the overtime?
Jamie:Okay. David came down the middle, and I wanna say I thought Hughes was on the ice with Worenski and Matthews, but Matthews made a play. It looked like Connor McDavid fanned on it. Remember the play I'm talking about?
Scott:Oh my god. Yes. He totally fanned on it.
Jamie:No, he didn't. Austin Matthews poked it away from him.
Scott:Oh, really?
Jamie:If you go look at it again, Austin Matthews poked the stick away, so when he went to shoot, the puck wasn't there.
Scott:He couldn't. Oh, my God.
Jamie:He's stupid.
Scott:That totally looked like he fanned that.
Jamie:Was like,
Scott:I can't believe McDavid's fanning on shots He and didn't.
Jamie:Matthews poked it away from his stick. When he so when he went to swing, a puck was not there. So we get on we get on him a lot. But, dude, that defensive play right there, I mean, my God, if he had got that shot off, where would it have gone? No.
Jamie:You never know.
Scott:Without a doubt. And that's like, you know, if I listen listening to others talk about Matthews, they definitely praise his 200 foot game, And he definitely doesn't have the same kind of like highlight. I mean, he has had them within his like career, the same type of highlights that McDavid or McKinnon are creating, they're he's not making that same kind of Impact. I don't know. I don't even about Impact, but, like, he's just not the same kind of player.
Scott:He's a superstar in a different way, and he's he puts in a ton of goals, and he'll probably continue to do that, but he's, you know, he's I don't know. I guess it's just been easy to say he doesn't do what these other guys do. And, like, then it you know, I'm not following that up by, like, kind of looking at the things that he does do that others don't and kind of giving him more credit for that. You know what I mean?
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah. I I get on him a lot, but because I want him to be like the the Matthews that he is when he plays for the Maple Leafs. Right? You know?
Jamie:But best on best is hard, man.
Scott:Totally hard. And you and you know, like, great players also adapt their game for what's needed. You know what I mean? I I'm not saying that that's what Austin did. I I just have no clue.
Scott:I just, you know? Yeah. He's a different And he contributed, and, you know Yeah. They they won.
Jamie:And they And they won.
Scott:And they won. And the girls won. And the men won.
Jamie:Both beat Canada in OT.
Scott:And they did that. And we have more medals in Canada. And so
Jamie:Yeah, dude. They're they're not even, like, the top five or six. Do you notice that?
Scott:Yeah. Did.
Jamie:Like, it's Norway, USA, and then,
Scott:like, one one person take home six in in like the that that cross country biathlete.
Jamie:Oh, is that right?
Scott:Yeah.
Jamie:They I think
Scott:that's the most. I I think that's most individuals taken in the in the Winter Olympics.
Jamie:Is that right?
Scott:It might be. Might be.
Jamie:Listen, a lot of credit to that person, you know. They a live very cold area, so I give them I mean,
Scott:he definitely at least has like a Nordic track in his house.
Matt:At least one.
Jamie:If not many.
Scott:If not, he few more tracks.
Jamie:One in each room.
Scott:Remember NordicTrack? That was ridiculous.
Jamie:I do remember NordicTrack. Never had one, but I do I do remember NordicTrack. Yes. Yeah, man. So that's so did you see Barstool Sports, by the way?
Jamie:Barstool Sports came out with a sweatshirt that has like it's like, like some like stars and like the sticks for the stripes, right? For the red stripes. And on the back it says things that Canada does better than The United States. And it says one hockey and two was nothing. Like saying that they just did hockey better than The United States.
Jamie:Yeah. It was hockey crushed out.
Scott:Yep. Yep. There you go.
Jamie:Listen. And I love our Canadian listeners. I love our Canadian followers. You guys are wonderful. But, yeah, we got you this time.
Scott:We did. And and look, you know, I think there's been a bunch of talk also about the the NTTP here, you know, in The States. You know, we've got a lot of, like, second, third generation hockey families now, and they're you know, there's a pathway, And the development league, just to kinda, like, bring that into context, is just yet another layer that's gonna help funnel elite talent, you know, through, you know, USA's elite programs Mhmm. And just help shape our future hockey players. And and I think you see in the world junior stage that we Yeah.
Scott:You know, the last couple of years, we've done, you know, excellent. This last this last one wasn't, you know, obviously our best, but, know, you I think you see it in all different, you know, men's, women's, different age groups that USA Hockey is, you know, certainly we're we're there.
Jamie:Yeah. We are. And and it's funny that you mentioned that, Scott, because you're right. We won the last two out of the three world juniors. Right?
Jamie:This year, not so lucky. You know, this year, Sweden had a very good hockey team. You know, hats off to them. Got you know, got give them a ton of credit. And it's funny.
Jamie:After that four nations, we had some comments written into us about, you know, what is development like? What is the youth programs like? What's development like for young hockey players overseas? Right. And we have an interview for you guys today that will kinda maybe shed some light on that.
Jamie:You know? Yeah. Absolutely. Matt Dumouchelle today, and he will give you guys a little context on, you know, what what youth hockey looks like overseas and what the development models look like overseas and how they're different from The United States.
Scott:Yeah. And and, you know, Matthew Michel, for those of you that are not familiar with him, he's been, like, in all different facets of the game. He's worked as in the world of junior hockey at the OJHL as an assistant GM, evaluating players, studied international developed models. He writes for the coaches site. If you're not familiar with the coaches site, check it out.
Scott:It's a great hockey resource, certainly geared towards coaching and and teaching, but it's still very interesting for anyone that, you know, wants to learn about hockey and and, you know, different tactics, etcetera. But nonetheless, yeah, he and he also sits on a minor hockey board. And so we talked to him, you know, about a lot of things, but mostly, you know, I think player development was was the focus of the conversation and just kind of understanding what it's like in in other countries compared to what he's seeing in Canada and North America. And it was a it was a wonderful interview just to learn more about what he's experienced, you know, being in all the different capacities he's been in in terms of, like, you know, journalist, GM, etcetera, etcetera.
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah. He's he's he's got his finger on the pulse of of kinda what development looks like overseas compared to what we do here and what they do up to our, you know, up in the North in Canada. It was pretty impressive. It was pretty cool, and it's been a topic that people have been asking us to to kind of talk about for a while.
Jamie:So this came in a perfect time with Matt.
Scott:Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So you wanna kick it over to to Matt?
Jamie:Yeah. After you, buddy.
Scott:Yeah. And, just to get ahead of it, and it was totally my bad rookie mistake. I mispronounced his name when we first opened up the interview. So that was that was my bad. I was reading and my mistake embarrassing, but it happens to the best of it.
Scott:But apologies, but you know, it was a wonderful conversation and let's kick it over.
Jamie:Here we go.
Scott:Alright, dude. Absolutely. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the next interview here on the Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast. We got Matt Dumouchelle, a longtime hockey executive, writer, youth sports advocate who spent over a decade working behind the scenes in junior hockey and player development.
Scott:And, wow, super excited to have you on tonight, Matt. Thanks for joining us.
Matt:No, it's awesome. Great to see you guys, and thanks for the invite and the opportunity.
Scott:Oh, it's our pleasure.
Jamie:So Matt, why don't you kind of tell our audience kind of like what you did as a kid, kind of go through from when you were a kid up to like you know, high school, college, and up to, like, what you're doing now? Kind of get a bit give me some context on your background.
Matt:For sure. So I as far as youth sports and stuff is concerned, I I played baseball when I was a kid. I have no no special level or or anything like that, mostly just kind of house leagues and and that I I think if you ask my mom, I made a couple of all star teams who probably have the the ribbons in the basement somewhere, but that was that was baseball was always my first love. And then sports has always had a huge part of of my life. You know, I I watch every sport, follow as many sports as I can, learning more about different sports, and and that kind of intrigued me or kinda led me to my my eventual goal and and career path was working in radio.
Matt:So I I went to college in Toronto at Humber College. I took radio broadcasting, worked in the industry for for ten years, which, is something not a lot of people get to say in radio. But, I I worked as a newscaster, sportscaster, did some play by play and some color commentary for a team in Owen Sound in the Ontario Hockey League when I was working up there. And then when I got let go from the radio station in 2012, sports had always been kind of the driving factor towards why I wanted to do radio. And, you know, the part of that was getting to interact with coaches and players and and learn the kind of the behind the scenes part of things.
Matt:And and so I had taken the the next step after that to to go to the other side of the fence and and start working for for some teams, themselves. I I was blessed. I got a chance to work for a a startup baseball team in, London, Ontario, the London Ripers, which was part of the Frontier League Cool. Baseball. So it's independent ball, lived a full Bull Durham summer on the bus for thirteen hour nights.
Jamie:Great movie.
Matt:Great movie. The best one of the best summers of my life, really. That's cool. Only time I can tell you, even through having kids and stuff, I truly didn't know what day of the week it was. We were just in some field in Kansas, and then we were in another one in Pennsylvania and overnight buses and all that, but just had a had an awesome awesome experience.
Matt:Was back in Windsor and worked for the Windsor Express basketball team. We won two championships in the three years that I there with them. And then started working in hockey. Volunteered with a junior c team in Amherstburg, as an assistant GM there. Worked with a junior b team and, the team that now the Leamington Flyers is in the, Ontario Junior Hockey League.
Matt:With for with them for for five years, won a Sutherland Cup with them in 2022. Oh, beautiful. Saw the the team get built from a a junior b team to moving up to a junior a team. And along that path, got an opportunity to connect with Aaron Wilbur and his group at the coaches site and and was was given, I think, the the greatest blessing that I've had in in sports and the opportunity to write the feature that I get to do called Hockey Factories. So if you haven't heard of it, Hockey Factories, we've done 15 of them now.
Matt:And it's basically an in-depth look into development programs in hockey around the world. We've done some in Canada, The US, Switzerland, Latvia, Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, and, you know, different levels, different experiences, and all of that. And and, you know, the idea behind it was first to kinda pull the curtain back a little bit, and see what a Frolanda in Sweden does that makes them Frolanda.
Jamie:What they are.
Matt:Yeah. And and and but also in the same sense, what are they doing that, you know, I sit on the board with Riverside Minor Hockey here in our area, like, what's something they're doing that we can do at home that's, you know, easy, that's, doesn't cost anything. You know, there's there's plenty of that to it. I I always go back to one of the quotes that I've gotten from Roger Roundberg who's the first team head coach at Frolunda. He had always said that he challenges his staff to be number one at everything that's free.
Matt:And and I always loved that because, know, you're thinking of Frolunda as like the Yankees of of hockey, maybe in Europe, maybe in in the world. Yeah. And they're trying to find ways to do things that are gonna help the club that don't cost the club anything. And that comes from, you know, communication within your coaches, being aligned as an organization, all of those things. So I've had taken those things that I've learned, you know, now I've I've I just launched in the last couple of days actually from when we record this, a website.
Matt:It's it's my name, mattdumouchelle dot com, to help with, you know, giving back to some organizations, families, players, coaches, as far as development's concerned, taking some of the things that I've learned that are tangible, that can be done anywhere, that are proven results oriented things that will help your organization ultimately create the best sports experience they can for the kids that are involved in the program.
Scott:Wow. Well, hold on. I James, before you dive into it because I know you want to, but I just have to ask this question. I know. I'm sorry.
Scott:I I I cut you off. But so anyone that we've had on the pod so far or spoken to, that's from Canada, like, course, they were hockey players. Now we're talking to someone that was a baseball player. Yes. What was it like growing up in terms of choosing not to play hockey, and was everyone around you playing hockey?
Scott:Because as American
Jamie:That's right.
Scott:Growing up when I was playing hockey and you think about Canadians, and it's like, of course, that's all they do. They're on the ice. Just like, you know, the misconception about
Matt:what we do.
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah.
Scott:Like like about Minnesota also. It's like, you assume everyone's doing it. But like Right. What was it what was it like for you? Like, were like most of your friends playing hockey?
Scott:Were you like the oddballer? Was it is it really just maybe a little bit of a misconception when, you know, we talk about Canadians and their affinity for hockey?
Matt:Yeah. You know, I think the I think the answer is yes to a few of those questions realistically. Yeah. I had a bunch of buddies that that were playing hockey and that I played hockey for a long time. Not as I didn't really necessarily come from a real sports oriented family.
Matt:You know, I I loved baseball. I'd always gravitated to baseball when I was a kid. Growing up in Windsor, you know, I I think it's one of the the best four hour radiuses in in North America. I mean, we can see Detroit. I mean, it's right there.
Matt:You know, Chicago's four and a half hours away. Cleveland, Toronto. Like, there it's a great little mecca of of of sports cities. So, yeah, I I probably was the odd man out without even really noticing it that I wasn't playing hockey. And and I didn't really get into hockey, honestly, from a a watching a regular standpoint until, like I said.
Matt:So I was born in '81. It was probably 12 or 13 years old when the Red Wings started their runs in the nineties. Right. You know, they lose to the Sharks in the first round, and then they go to the Stanley Cup in '95 and lose to the Devils. And then they start turning into the the Red Wings that that Yeah.
Matt:We all knew and loved. So, I probably got into hockey at the right time, but like we were joking at the beginning, you know, I I can't skate. I can't shoot. I can't do much of that. You know, I go out on the on the ice with my little guys team.
Matt:Luckily, he's a goalie, so I just gotta sit there and fire shots at him instead of trying to stop and start in the middle of the ice and go different directions.
Jamie:That's alright.
Matt:I'm I'm good with that. But no. Looking back, you know, obviously, I wish that I had. I I'm, you know, a competitive person in in sport in general and would have loved to, you know, experience playing a game like that, for sure. But, you know, the the opportunities that hockey has given me, you have a bit of a of of impostor syndrome, I guess.
Matt:Getting into it in a sense that, you know, not to brag, like, I'm when I'm doing these Hockey Factories articles, like, I've done WhatsApp and Zoom calls with, like, Yari Curry and Peter Forsberg and some of these just incredible people. Yeah. That you're just sitting there like, what is he talking to me? Like, I
Jamie:I never
Matt:I never played a game in my life. So hockey has Me neither. Given me a yeah. Hockey has given me a lot. So this is, I guess, my my way to try to make things even in the in the gifts that the sport has given me.
Jamie:That's You're doing a good job, Matt. You you mentioned the Red Wings, and you mentioned the fact that you guys that you're right there by Detroit. I have a question for you. The way you and I actually hooked up, I don't if you remember, but we reposted something that you wrote about a Red Wings draft pick. Yes.
Jamie:Why don't you tell that story? Because I think sometimes our audience and the crazy hockey dads or the crazy hockey moms out there think that, you know, a kid needs to be the best 10 year old or nine year old or eight year old or a 13 year old. Do me a favor. Can you tell the story of that young man? Because I think it's very telling and will kind of maybe set some of our listeners at ease.
Jamie:I'm sure. Yes.
Scott:So sorry to interrupt, Matt. So sorry. I just got I just got a notification that something stopped recording. I don't know if you saw the same thing.
Jamie:No worries.
Scott:Alright. No worries. Yo, did I mispronounce his name in the in the beginning?
Jamie:Do Michelle.
Scott:Yeah. But why didn't you tell me that when I had texted you I mispronounced it?
Jamie:I did. Said no.
Matt:Said you said I can't like No.
Jamie:No. No. No worries. We gotcha.
Matt:The Internet's Internet's okay here. It's been I'll just No.
Jamie:You're we
Matt:clicked on something. Thank
Jamie:God we can edit.
Matt:Right? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Jamie:Well, trying I'm to where should you wanna pick up where Yeah. Where I'll take the answer off of
Matt:your question there. Yeah. Recently, I went to a Red Wings game with my little guy, and the kid that stood out to me, who I thought was was one of the better players on the ice was Emmett Finney. And he's a rookie, coming into the Red Wings. He had a great camp.
Matt:Saw his name coming up a bunch of times in the in the news and in reports, and it almost seemed like he was a guy that they were trying to find a reason to not put him on the team. And then end of the day, he just he just worked his way onto that team. But then when you do more info research on him and you do more digging, you know, he's he was five foot three. He was a fourth round pick in the in the WHL draft. You know, he didn't score a goal in 48 games with the Kamloops Blazers when he was in junior hockey.
Matt:You know, in his draft year, he had nine goals in 64 games. You know, he he's never really been an offensive player, and and I would struggle to say that he's really been a star at at any point leading up to that. He just you know, the the articles that were being written about him and the comments that were being made about him was that he he was tenacious, that he had great work ethic, that he loved playing the game, and and it was an infectious kind of energy that he was bringing to a team. And now he sits on the first line with the Red Wings most nights. He's playing with Dylan Mark, and he plays with Lucas Raymond.
Matt:He's putting up points, and he's become a a valuable guy to to that lineup. So I mean, from from that comparison, I thought there's just so many stories like that that it seems impossible that all we're thinking of is that you've gotta be the best at nine and you've gotta be the best at 12 and you've gotta be the best at 15 when truly it doesn't matter in any way. What what you're doing at those levels. There's so much of what we do as a person that brings success to us in just being consistent over a long period of time when asking that of a 10 year old or projecting that at a 10 year old sounds or should sound pretty ludicrous.
Jamie:Yes. Yes. I say it all the time. They're consistently inconsistent.
Matt:And there's nothing wrong with that. Know, like I think that's Yeah. That's a big part and and kinda to jump ahead of I'm sure where where we're going. You know, I had conversation with a an NHL assistant coach a couple years ago just around hockey factories and and kind of digging on on his thoughts on it. And and I had said, you know, for you at the NHL level, at what age do you have circled in, like, this kid is is running on everything.
Matt:He's he's top talent, top efficiency. He's you know, this is his best window. And the age he gave me was 26. Wow. Which which is fair in most cases.
Matt:You know, you've got the Connor Bedards that are coming at 19 and 18 Sure. You know, the unicorns that are
Jamie:in. Yeah.
Matt:But when you do research and you look into the average duration of an NHL career, it's about four and a half, five years. And if you're looking at the average age of an NHL debut, it's around 24 to 25. So the math makes sense. But then when you bring that back to to where you guys talk on a regular basis, where some of the youth development articles and such that I write kind of go to, I mean, when you're looking at that and we're talking about a 13 year old Yeah. We're doubling their life time to when they're expected to be firing on all cylinders.
Jamie:Isn't that unbelievable? Doubling. Right? And yet some and we get some of us get mad, you know, at that 13 that our kid's not performing. It's crazy.
Scott:For sure. Yeah. And I think also part of it, which I've certainly heard before, but like a large percentage of players in the NHL have spent time in the AHL. For sure. If you think about the AHL as a stepping stone to the NHL, and it's just yet another level where you have to go out and prove yourself and get better day in and day out, It's like the runway is quite long.
Scott:Absolutely. Especially when you get to the age of 24, which is clearly what we're talking about. You know, and it's just again, like we've said on so many podcasts, like these high highlight this highlight world we live in Mhmm. And you see these young phenoms, and it's just about all these super duper highlights. And it's like, you know, if these kids start, you know, and young adults are preparing for, like, the longer game, meaning, like, you know, let's get to the the highest levels when we're at the age of 24.
Scott:I think that at at we're just saying that. It's like take so much pressure off, you know, anyone that thinks that they're nine, 10, 11, 12 year old needs to be, like, the superstar in three years.
Matt:For sure. And, Scott, you kinda you kinda alluded the to that too just in in the thinking of, you know, that the player when they get to the AHL as an example. You know, the AHL is is the second tier or the next tier down from the best league in the world. You know, put the KHL in there somewhere and probably second place, and then the AHL will be there after that. And the AHL describes themselves as a as a development league.
Matt:So Right. You know, when you kind of work your way backwards from from there, what you're learning in that sense and that a lot of these kids in the AHL that maybe don't make that next jump or in the ECHL that don't make that next jump is maybe they've always been the 40 goal scorer on their team, and they've been the highlight reel in junior hockey. And they got drafted high because they put up a 120 points in in 50 games. But how many guys do we know that you could name off the top of your head that are super high draft picks that put up a ton of points and a ton of goals in junior hockey or wherever it is, but never made that jump maybe because they didn't know their goalie's first name or maybe they really weren't good on the wall or, you know, they they weren't a well rounded player. And that's what I kind of think about when we look at young players and we we project young players, so to speak.
Matt:You know, our easy projection is the kid that scores the most points is the best player on the team. And that, you know, you see that everywhere and and we see that in, you know, the the NHL. You pull up the leading scorer. So Nathan MacKinnon has gotta be pretty good. Look at how many points he puts up even if you've never seen him.
Matt:You can tell, you know, Luka Doncic is probably a pretty darn good basketball player because he's averaging 38 points a game. You know, I'm not a basketball guy, I can tell you that guy's probably pretty good, you know. But if if they don't have the intangibles, if they don't have the extra stuff, if they don't know how to win a face off, or they don't know how to kill a penalty, 40 goals in a lot of leagues will get you a lot of places until it stops. And there's a lot of NHL guys that scored forty, fifty goals in junior hockey that play regular NHL shifts that if they get That's right. Six goals a a year, 10 goals a year, that's a probably a boom year.
Matt:But you also are asking the same guys in that room who you wanna go to war with, that they're probably one of the first names on the list.
Jamie:You know, it's funny. We we've actually talked about that before. You know, most those guys develop roles. Mhmm. Right?
Jamie:The guys that could win face offs. Right? I mean, how valuable is the guy in in a seven game series who can go in and win your face off 80% of the time.
Matt:Exactly.
Jamie:Right?
Matt:Yep.
Jamie:I mean, puck possession is huge at those levels. But those guys
Matt:somebody like that.
Jamie:Yeah. Right. Those roles that they fit into, and and that's and and it's funny what you say about it. It's a team game. Right?
Jamie:And that's that guy's contributing to the team.
Scott:You
Matt:know? Yep. Absolutely. And we saw that just from the world junior, tournaments, this past year, you know, watching from a a Canadian perspective. I mean, we had a hard time with Latvia last year.
Matt:We nearly lost to him again this year. We've lost to Chechia for the last three years. There there's no you know, if you and this isn't against anybody that plays for the Chechian team, but if you were to take the top player on that team and put them in the list of players that are on the team Canada team, I mean, are they on the bottom half of of what you would compare them to? But ultimately, the second that game started in that semifinal, you knew something was off. You knew that Yeah.
Matt:Canada either wasn't ready for this or, you know, that team was just playing a better system than, you know, a ton of individual players, which which it tends to be, you know, from from the comparisons that I've I've heard from people that, you know, from my own personal opinion that I've learned from looking at teams in Europe and looking at teams in North North America and seeing those differences, we have no question the between Canada and The US, the best individual skill development in the world and it's not close. Yeah. But when you're looking at a putting a team together Mhmm. We're you know, other countries are starting to catch up and it's becoming pretty obvious on that kind of stage.
Jamie:You know, it's interesting you say that because I think that from obviously, we looked at it from The US side. Right? Thought the US team was not as good of a team, not individually, but just as an overall team as they were the last two years. Mhmm. You could see it.
Jamie:Yeah. You know, they they didn't there was the chemistry was not there like it was the the previous couple years in
Matt:my opinion. Right. And you can put that you can point that at a number of different ways, and this isn't to point fingers and say we do this wrong or we do this wrong. It's just simply observation. Right?
Matt:Where from from our perspective, you know, there are so many individual skill coaches out there that were individual individualizing a team game mostly for a lot of people that have their hands out and there's a lot of money to be made in the game itself. Right? Absolutely. We all have a shooting coach, we've all got a skating coach, and we've all got this and that. But what we what we're losing and what we've lost, and this is something I've heard from the article I did, on HS Auriga in Latvia to the one that I just did in in Quebec City.
Matt:We've lost the hockey IQ of the game because a guy can dangle through three guys like nobody else. The skill level that these kids have now is remarkable. Yes. But when they lose the puck and they go into the corner, they don't know what to do. They don't know where their teammates are.
Matt:They don't know if they're just blindly throwing a pass into the middle of the ice or trying to pin it and wait for some help. They don't see those things because that's hard to replicate in an individual skill session, which is the way that we've gone so quickly for, you know, over the last couple of years.
Jamie:Know, that's that's that's so interesting that you're saying that. And I wanna I wanna roll into the hockey factories from here because I have a feeling what you're seeing overseas and their development models and how they do things ties in exactly to what we were just talking about. Would that be correct in saying that?
Matt:Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a different game. It it really is.
Matt:And that's I think the the biggest difference that they point out when I when I start kind of breaking that down or or picturing what that looks like in Europe. It's it's a very different style and there's a different value behind it. But ultimately, they they have a longer runway with their kids there in in a in a few different senses. So I use Yokrit in Finland as an example. That was one of the first ones that we did.
Matt:One that's always stood out to me as as an extremely interesting and and, you know, if if you could replicate what Yokrit is doing anywhere, odds are you got a a real good thing going. You know Right. They when they talk about development, their concern is to try to build a team for their first team at the very end of the of the runway. Right? So their runway is longer in the sense that they're looking to create 23 to 24 year old players that are ready to make the jump to their first team.
Matt:A lot of these clubs just for budget restraints or whatever it is, mandate 50% of their first team has to be players that have come through their development program. So they're aiming for a 23 year old where here we panic when they're 16 and they don't get drafted to the OHL. You know? Right. It's a longer runway.
Jamie:Seven years. Right. Seven year difference.
Matt:What they're looking at or what what their concern is, you know, they wanna make sure that you've created a great environment for the kid that, you know, if they don't end up playing for the first team that maybe one day, you know, they'll have a kid and they'll say, I had such a great experience at Yokore. We're gonna sign you up at that club. Maybe they're gonna own a business, and they'll be willing to put money in towards a sponsor or season ticket.
Jamie:Sure.
Matt:Maybe they wanna coach. Maybe they want to give back a different way to the program because of the experience that they had where
Jamie:We're creating
Matt:a culture. Yeah. We're very much just trying to find the next hot thing and ride that out and and then we'll just find the next hot thing. So the runway's a little different but it's also the way that they break things down and and how they communicate to their players. Some of the ways that they're that that are taught or programs are done in Europe, and this just isn't Yokrat specifically.
Matt:This is a lot of the clubs that I've I've seen or kind of interacted with. You know, the idea that in HS Riga, because they don't have the population we have in Canada or The US, they don't have a choice. They have to develop everybody within their program. They don't know that the 10 year old who looks like a deer on skates isn't gonna grow six inches and by sixteen seventeen be a fantastic defenseman. Right?
Jamie:Right.
Matt:So the the way that they do that is developing much slower in the patterns that we do. You know, we over inform kids because we have coaches who maybe don't have a lot of direction from their organization. They're given the keys to the the program and do what you wish with it. There's no real end goal at the end of the year to say, we need you to check these boxes one, two, three. You don't do that.
Matt:The expectation then it just that that point just becomes winning. So if you don't have the goals of, you know, our nine u team only needs to be able to learn how to skate backwards.
Jamie:Do x y z by the end of
Matt:the You better hope that all those kids in United had a great experience because if you you failed as a coach, if all those kids don't come and try out next year, you know, maybe that's all they need to do. And you look at that Yokrat, I mean, the first year that they're involved in an organized program, their coaches are talking about how to play offense with the puck as the puck carrier. That's what they're talking about for the first year. So Now what
Jamie:what age would first year be?
Matt:Give give age probably seven or eight years old.
Jamie:Okay. Good. So In Finland. This is what they do in Finland from age
Matt:So that's their conversation. You know, up to to to you're nine or nine years old. That's what they talk about. Playing offense with the puck. The next year, they'll talk about playing offense without the puck.
Matt:How do you create time and space? How do you get open? How do be a good teammate? The year after that is defending the puck carrier. The year after that is defending the non puck carrier.
Matt:How do you take time and space away? So what they're teaching over four years is something we try to teach in four months Because at the end of our year, these kids have to be able to do this and ABC and look at this great because the parents are saying this about us and the coach is kind of left to his own devices. So he's going to teach what he knows and there's no organization, there's no long story development in that where you know, again, you have a kid that comes in at UA, they leave your program at UA team, the coach that they have at UA is gonna be 10% of their youth hockey experience. It's not a lot. We don't have to tell them everything we know all at once and information dump again.
Matt:We're ultimately the European clubs that I've seen better than the ones in in North America do a better job of saying when this kid leaves our program at u twenty, this is what they will have learned as opposed to u nine, u ten, u eleven, u twelve, and looking at those as separate entities.
Scott:Let let me ask you a question about that. So when when you talk about there being a particular aspect of the game that's taught over the course of a year. Right? And I don't I don't know that I if I should take that very literally or just, like, as an as an example. But I think it's pretty literally.
Scott:So so if we're talking about, you know, like, offensive play with the puck is, you know, dedicated to one year of a player's development. Intertwined with that is or I guess I I I don't wanna falsely believe that's the only thing you're going over in practice. Right? So, like, these teams will this will be a focus of what they're training these kids, but they're at the same time gonna parallel path other aspects of the game as well. Is that fair to say?
Matt:To an extent, yes. So like there obviously is is part of, you know, they they're learning what to do with the puck in certain situations in their own zone. You know, the when it's not just a constant review of how he played offense with the puck. But what they will do is, you know, you go into the locker room after a game and you'd win nine nothing or you lose nine nothing. That conversation around that is how did we play offense with the puck?
Matt:You know? So Got it. So they're taking their time in that maybe there's, you know, there's other aspects of the game of coaching that they'll of course, that they'll teach over the course of the year. But the theme of the year, it they'll always come back to playing offense with a puck or playing offense without the puck. And so they're much more deliberate with that and they're much more, you know, that they they do take their time because they do have a longer runway that that's perceived there than what we perceive we have here.
Matt:Where, you know, ultimately again, if we're all trying to create the best 26 year old player, it's okay to not tell everybody everything every single year.
Jamie:Immediately.
Matt:Because, know, I I know, you know, when I was in grade three, if you gave me all the information that I can handle up until whatever that would be, grade eight, grade nine or what we're trying to teach. I mean, it's just from from looking at it that way, there's no way that those kids can retain that much information or keep that information. You know, as an adult in a in a conversation, know, science or or studies have shown that, you know, if if in our conversation you're able to recall after we're done here, 40% of what I said, that's pretty good. You know, that's you know, I'm 44. For an adult.
Matt:You could imagine a nine year old, I mean, a butterfly goes by and it doesn't matter what you said unless Batman's walking through the door, know, like they're not concentrated. Their brains aren't set for that yet. So Right. I think we try to justify what we're doing as coaches by filling in the blanks with what we know as opposed to looking that at that longer view.
Scott:So so sorry, James. Just one one other thing I wanted to ask though. So, like, obviously, you know, the what to do offensively when you have the puck, there's certainly you know, like, there's a few things that are involved there. So one, there's, like, the the IQ aspect of it.
Matt:Mhmm.
Scott:Right? But the other aspect is like, you know, the technical skills, stick handling.
Matt:Of
Scott:course. Like, shooting. So so these these are all things that'll come under the umbrella of, let's say, you know, you know, playing offense with the puck. Like, they'll they'll review stick handling, shooting as well. Like, so will they also they'll periodize or they will, I guess, schedule the teaching of those hard skills as well?
Matt:They again, they're most of the time when they're presenting those things, that's that's their theme for the year. So when, you know, we're talking about, like you said, playing offense with the puck is not just getting the puck and shooting it immediately. Right? There's there's so much to it. So what they'd be teaching over time is yeah.
Matt:You know, maybe for the first part of the year, it's skating. And then it's, you know, using your edges to get to the net or and then it's, you know, stop and starts and you know, things like that for sure. And and I you know, that that's not the order that they do. That's just simply Of course. Speculation in that sense.
Matt:Yeah. But it the theme of it will always run to that because
Scott:Yeah.
Matt:The thinking again, and and they use this and we joke about it in North America in in general. But, I mean, I don't know where what it's like in in if it's like that in all areas around around The US and Canada or whatever. But we don't introduce skating or checking, I should say, until u thirteen, u '14. So before then, we're not even playing hockey guys. Like, it's, you know, it's how, you know, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face.
Matt:Right? We're all great skaters until somebody's coming running at you and throwing their body into you into a a, you know, a glass wall, that that'll change things. So what we're doing now at u ten is not necessarily preparing them for that, but we're giving them particular skills that will help them now that when we introduce body checking or or, you know, the clutching and grabbing or whatever that looks like, that you already have some skills in there that will that you'll be able to use when the time comes.
Jamie:You know you know, it's funny, Matt. When you're a youth hockey pair in The States, unless you've gone through it before with an older child, you don't think that way. You don't think that that hockey is that you're not playing hockey up until checking. Right. You just don't.
Jamie:Right, Scott?
Scott:I would I mean, I would agree with that for sure.
Jamie:Right? The the whether it's USA hockey that's not doing a good job of teaching that or the organization or whatever it is, but you're not told that as a parent.
Scott:It's a hockey game. Will say though, part of that conversation is typically the game changes when they hit puberty. That's often called out and said, and no one would disagree with it. But at the same time, like, the the level of transparency that I think you're all you're to, Matt, I would also presume that not only is it within the organization and the coaching staff, but also with the families. Mhmm.
Scott:Right? So they they see that path over time unlike here, and I've got firsthand experience myself having coached a little bit, but like, there there there is, you know, at least in this area, like, the the the American development model Mhmm. Like, is something that I, you know, to get coaching credentials, you know, you learn and you do coursework, but and then beyond that, it's up to the organization to,
Jamie:like Yeah.
Scott:Enforce it, and it's not the case. And so You know, that's just that yeah. Go ahead.
Matt:No. I was gonna say that's that's just that I mean, the USA ADM is is one of, if not the best documents out there for, you know, athlete development. There's there's no question that the content that's in there, you know, it's it's it's due for an update just like everybody else is. But like the content in there is is true content. But Yeah.
Matt:Scott, you you called it out. After going through that, I mean, there's only so much you can do with that information in there. If your organization is not making it clear with what their philosophy goals are, if you are not being told that as a coach, if you're not having that coach as a conversation with a family, it doesn't matter like it doesn't matter if Scottie Bowman's coming into coach or if Connor McDavid's coming into play. It's not gonna work because one of the big things that I talk about with groups that I've I've met with and and worked with before is is just having that alignment within an organization. Because if you leave things up for translation as a coach to a family, and this is no fault of anybody, you leave something up for translation, you're going to get 17 different ways of translating that all to the benefit of that person's child.
Matt:That's just the way we are as parents. I mean, it's I love the name of the podcast because we're all crazy hockey dads. We are. Like, Dwayne Blaze, who's a skills coach for the the Red Wings, have had a chance to interact with a couple of times. And that's where I, you know, I heard that line from him, and and I just started laughing because it's just true.
Matt:Like, we're, you know, we're all crazy hockey parents. There's there's no doubt about it. The ones that succeed are almost the ones that are able to shelve that somehow. But I can tell you, you know, my like I said, my little guy, I use him as an example in in all these kind of conversations and stuff. He played as a as a seven year old.
Matt:He played U9 hockey as a goalie. Loves playing goalie. Hates his dad obviously because of I give him that all the time. He hates it. But, you know, I told him, like, man, you wanna do this, you can do this, man.
Matt:This is not gonna go well because you're learning and it's just it's just not, man. There's gonna be nights that you're gonna get sunburned to the back of your neck like it's gonna happen. But you're gonna get a ton of shots, you're gonna get a ton of experience, and and you know, we're we're with you all the way. We go to tournaments. We've got you know, I'm standing next to parents that are shouting to their players on the other team to just shoot anywhere because this goalie is terrible.
Matt:You know, like, we we hear it everyone. They're like, he's you know, we're all crazy hockey parents. I could very easily have snapped on that guy and and thrown him against the wall for talking that way about a seven year old. Also, like, you know, he come off the ice. Did you have a good time, bud?
Matt:Oh, yeah. Did you see that one save I made? Like, hey, Let's, you know, there's absolutely. There's a part on the back Yeah. Your a part on the back of your head when you look at the scoreboard, you're like, I'm glad you're excited about that save because the seven goals that you gave up in that game were terrible.
Matt:But but guess what? You had a great time. You want to come back to practice the next day.
Jamie:It's all that matters.
Matt:It's all that matters. That's all we're trying to do, you know? So I know it's a long winded way of of kind of getting around where where we're talking about. But if if we're not having those conversations out of the gate and being realistic with with parents, with our coaches, with our organization as a whole, then we leave gaps. And when you leave gaps, parents want the best for their kids in whatever they do.
Matt:They wanted the best in school. They wanna go to the best universities. They wanna have the best jobs. They wanna have the best hockey experience. And yeah, we all want them to be superstars.
Matt:Like, of course, you know, that that's part of that's part of being a parent, you know. There's a a great quote that I just heard recently from Steve Harvey talking about his his dad and his connection to his father. And it was something along the lines of, you know, when he when his father passed away, he'd realized that the one man that wanted him to be better than himself was God. And that's that's what, you know, that's what we try to do as parents. But if we're if we're not given the information, if we're not given as parents the tools from our coaches and from our organization of what to expect, we're going to reevaluate things ourselves, and it's not gonna be good enough.
Matt:And that's where you get the rumblings in the parking lot and the interactions, fan to fan and parent to parent and coach to player and all that. You know, I talk about the player parent coach triangle in in my presentations, and that part of it is, you know, if if one of those sides of the triangle falls, the whole thing falls. Absolutely.
Scott:And you know what's so interesting about this and is that it's like a negative feedback loop. Mhmm. You know? And it's just like and and and, you know, it's like families don't know what's happening. They tell their own story to themselves.
Scott:It's not self serving.
Matt:Mhmm.
Scott:They get mad. They tell the coach. They tell the organization. The organization, here's enough about the coach. They move the coach on, and it's like, you don't have steady anyone steady.
Scott:Don't have, you know, this alignment. You know, like, if the organizations and, you know, were to to I don't know if, like, mandate's the right word, but if there was more transparency about what the progression of learning was throughout the organization, and this is what your kid's gonna learn day one and day, you know, 10,001. Yeah. You know, I think it would it would create a lot a lot more transparency that would help connect dots and potentially not have all this
Matt:It turmoil and sounds simple the way you lay it out, Scott, doesn't it? Like, it it really does
Scott:sound know easier said than done. A 100%. I get it.
Matt:You gotta imagine. Way to do it, you know, like, from from an organization standpoint, we just introduced open borders in Ontario this year. So it's mayhem. Know, now instead of playing in my neighborhood where I have to play because of where I live, I I can take my can go if I wanted to drive four hours to Toronto, I can drive I can go anywhere I want.
Jamie:Oh, didn't know that.
Matt:Now, the whatever program you're in is the worst program in the world, and then there's so many other great programs, everywhere else. I've told programs, and I've told organizations, you know, we all have mantras. We all have, you know, this is our club philosophy, and it looks good when we put it on our website. But to your point, Scott, this is this is what your child's experience is going to be like in our club. At u ten, we're going to talk about a b c.
Matt:We're expecting this this this from our coaches. We're expecting this this this from our players and our families. And u eleven, we are adding this this this. We're adding this. Here's the this is the pipeline.
Matt:This is what we're creating from u eight to u eighteen. You're either on the bus or off the bus. But there's no question in what this is going to look like. Because like you said, the trickle down from an organization to a coach. I've I've sat in coach interviews.
Matt:I've sat in year end conversations where there's no guardrails. There's no expectations. There's no, you know, hey. It wasn't like we're evaluating you as a coach because we told you at the beginning of the year that you have to make sure that all your kids can skate backwards. And there's four kids out there that can't, which means you didn't do a very good job as a coach.
Matt:There isn't that there isn't that explanation. You know, for an organization standpoint, understandably so, it's hard to find coaches. It's just hard to find people that wanna do this, especially on a volunteer basis when they got full time jobs and and everything else. So excuse me. So to my point, the reason that coaches leave organizations and the reason we have a hard time with with finding coaches is not parents.
Matt:It's not having to deal with all of that. It's it's simply support. Our coaches do not feel supported. They don't have the tools from an organization or from, you know, a coaching platform or a mentor or something like that, that they're able to handle either handle situations or come up with a roadmap or explain that to a family. Whatever they're they're given the keys to here's your u eleven team, go run your team.
Matt:If you're not telling the coach what his expectations are from an organization, it always falls back to winning. And the one thing to make crystal clear in in this, and I know that you guys talk about this as well in your your podcast all the time too. Like winning is part of this. We all wanna win just because I want every player to have the same experience growing up as a as a as a youth hockey player or soccer player or whatever, doesn't mean I don't care about winning or losing. But there's a time and place for it and there's a lot to learn from that where as, you know, as a 10 year old or u ten coach, maybe that's when you're starting to have those conversations with guys.
Matt:The way we lost was not acceptable because we didn't do these three things that we've talked about all year that are our keys for the year. You know, how we handle wins and how we handle losses is a big part of life in general. So if we're not arming parents and arming coaches as an organization with the tools that they need, that's where, like you said, Scott, there that's where there's gonna be miscommunication. That's where there's gonna be gaps, and that's where we're gonna ultimately lose people.
Jamie:You know, it's funny. Scott and I talked about this before, and we had Bob Mancini from USA Hockey on
Matt:Yeah.
Jamie:I don't what, Scott, like a month ago, month and a half ago, something like that?
Scott:Yeah. That's about right.
Jamie:And and, you know, we were talking about the ADM model. And he was kind of going through it all for us, we're like, it's awesome. And we said to him, are there certain pockets in The US where they don't follow that? Because there's kind of no teeth for USA hockey to enforce it. Right.
Jamie:Right? And he mentioned, he said, your newer hockey playing locations in The US, like California, Arizona, Florida, they adopt the ADM model.
Scott:Yeah, they're into it.
Jamie:Yeah, it's the Northeast where we are, that they've been doing this for a while, they don't want to hear about how, you know, the ADM model that is kind of really resisting kind of putting that into play in their organizations. And Scott and I have mentioned this before, and I know you're a big alignment guy. There's in my opinion, there's no alignment in our area. Our U8, U9, they don't talk to each other. They they teach whatever they want, there's no structure, and I'm assuming that's the organization, right?
Jamie:I'm assuming USA Hockey has a structure, but these organizations are not following it, and it's almost like, this is going to sound harsh, but it's almost like financial aspect of youth hockey is almost crushing that. Right? They're just gonna do what they want, get kids in and out, and you know what? If your kid wants to go leave and go somewhere, it's no problem. We'll fill the void with Johnny instead of You know?
Jamie:And that's a problem, I think. And and it's hurting kids because, you know, again, I I don't think my kid it doesn't stack like it does when they're in school.
Matt:Right.
Jamie:Right?
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. None of this really like compares to any other part of a child's life or a person's life, you know. I don't run around bragging that I've got the best 11 year old math student. You know, it sounds it sounds funny.
Matt:Right? Like but you ask a guy that that a parent at u 12, if their kid is is a good kid and and puts up a lot of points, you know, you're not gonna have to ask them how the kid's doing. They're ready to tell you when when you come and say hi to them. Right? But but you're you're a 100% right in in that point, James.
Matt:Like, and I've done articles on the Dallas Stars Elite program. I've done one on the Arizona Junior Coyotes. We've done Shattuck Saint Mary's. So I've done a few different places, and and the one that always stands out is one we recently did in Hermantown, Minnesota, where human Minnesota still operates under the community based models. The only one left.
Matt:And, you know, Mike Snee, who who works with the Minnesota Wild, who was with College Hockey Inc. For a long time, talked with him and that, and he was very generous with with me and sharing information and stuff. He just sent me stuff on the NHL draft. There's more kids getting drafted that are from Minnesota than any other state in in the country still. Yeah.
Matt:And they're the only ones that have abandoned that that model. And and you're right, James. To an extent, the scary thing about hockey is it's becoming a rich man's game, which we see everywhere. And the the what we do, I think, so poorly in in North America compared to Europe. And again, it's because of what we have access to compared to what they have access to.
Matt:You know, some of the numbers are are quite surprising. There's, you know, there's more ice arenas in the GTA and the Greater Toronto area than there is in the entire country of Germany. Germany's got 83,000,000 people. Canada's got 38,000,000. But there's know, so in Germany, as an example, I did John Oldermanheim for one of our hockey factories, they have to develop everybody.
Matt:So they develop great teams. And if at nine years old, this kid's not a great skater or he doesn't have a great shot, then they're working with him because at some point they're gonna need him. Right? Like that's just the math of of what numbers are. It's gonna drop off at some point.
Matt:If you've got a 100 kids that sign up at u eight, you're probably pretty lucky if you could put a team together at u eighteen with those kids. There's gonna be kids that lose interest. There's kids that move. There's all of those different things that play into it. So from a from a development model, the the Europeans are much more invested in in developing year over year as opposed to what we are doing here and just trying to find the best nine year old and the best 11 year old where, you know, there's there's a kid somewhere out there who truly, number one, probably can't afford to play.
Matt:Yeah. And and number two, when they're 22 might be phenomenal. But at 11, they don't make an elite team and the development that they get from their their coaching or their organization is so vastly different. They'll never get to catch up.
Scott:Right.
Jamie:Oh, that's very interesting. Can you go more into that? So so the kid that doesn't make those elite teams, you don't think he will ever catch up to the kid who made one of those elite teams because why? Explain that to me.
Matt:I I think that, you know, for me, I think that's that comes with coaching. I think there's, you know, you get the extra ice, a couple of extra practices in a week, you know, you're you get the more experience and the and the more in-depth than that where in house league, I mean, house league, I think it's a bad rap in the sense that, you know, it's considered fun and, you know, less competitive. And it Yeah. Is all of those But that doesn't necessarily mean that your next great player doesn't have to play an elite level all the way across. I think where we we lose some of these kids is, you know, in that drop off of what elite hockey costs.
Matt:You know, what it costs to go to three or four tournaments a year and have to stay in hotels So and all for some people that's just not an option. And we're not Right. We're not giving that kid an option because we're we're so quick to say, you know, this 12 year old is phenomenal. Where there may be another 12 year old who if you gave him the same type of of of coaching
Jamie:He would turn into the same
Matt:one day, but we just never know because our the way we look at it is there's always somebody else to fill that spot where in some countries in Europe, there there isn't. I mean, in in, you know, hockey in Germany is probably the fifth or fifth sixth favorite sport. If you lose a kid that doesn't wanna play hockey anymore, there isn't another kid just waiting
Jamie:to take their self spot. Right Right.
Scott:Well, you know, it's funny we we joke, I'm sure you've heard this before, but, like, the you know, people say, like, the the best hockey players are those that are are those that can afford it, not necessarily the best hockey players.
Matt:Yeah.
Scott:Yeah. You know? But one of the things as you talk about the factories, and and perhaps if you could just, like, spell that out a little bit more for our listeners who who might not know exactly what we're talking about. Mhmm. You could just, you know, give a little bit of a deeper dive of kind of, like, what those, you know, you know, your research and, you know, your time spent, you know, going over those programs, what that looked like, and kinda, like, what were the takeaways.
Scott:And at some point, I'd love to just also go into a little bit more, like, overseas and may you know, you talked about Finland earlier. Mhmm. But I'm sure our listeners, especially with the Olympics coming up, are gonna be exposed to and the world juniors just happened. Sure. Seeing different styles of play.
Scott:Kind of like what you've kinda gathered from from different countries.
Matt:Yeah. So the the idea came from Aaron Wilbur, who's the the founder and CEO of the coaches site. I had the opportunity to interview him on his podcast because he's talked to so many great coaches. The the the premise around it was like, you know, what have you learned just through osmosis having these conversations. Right?
Jamie:Yeah. Sure.
Matt:He had asked if if I'd ever done some writing, and and fortunately, I had. And and he gave me, as I said, what I think the best blessing that I've been given in in my my hockey career, so to speak, in in getting to do these hockey factories. So, you know, we we came up with a a short list of the best programs in the world, you know, made some connections here and there. And then most of it was done through Zoom calls and interviews and things like that. And then just transcribing, you know, what they would be talking about and kind of putting that in place.
Matt:So I mean, we've done, as I said, we've done 15 now. There's a handful in Canada and The US. We've done Finland, Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Slovakia, Switzerland. And and, you know, again, like, we're what we're trying to see is, you know, the not necessarily to say that one is better than the other, or I feel like when I do these podcasts, they come on and and it it's simply this is why Canada and The US are not doing well, and this is what Europe is doing so well. But there's a there's a happy medium somewhere in the middle of that.
Matt:Like I said, we're Yeah. We're incredible skill developers. Our our individual players are unbelievable. Where the team structure that a club, know, at Ejes Riga in Latvia has that, you know, when we looked at the world junior team that they had last year that came in and surprised everybody, beat Canada in the round robins, you know, that more than half of that team came from HS Riga or had played there at some point. So that program is obviously doing something right.
Matt:What are they doing that, you know, from from a philosophy standpoint, from a coach development standpoint, you know, what are they doing that is is making them have that much success? Because, yes, we could have had Macron celebrating he play in the world juniors for us in Canada, and that would have made a huge difference. Of course, no one's no one's debating that or questioning But ultimately, you know, how does a country that has how many, know, 50% more than that less in population come to that stage and play and play well. And and, you know, we're all we we brag about being hockey first in Canada and that will ultimately, you know, the results haven't been there from that level in that tournament. And that's not to say that we're not developing players well.
Matt:That's just saying other countries have found ways to do it with what they have. And that's really the Yeah. Interesting part or or where I really love going with hockey factories is, you know, tell me something that you do at at Frolanda in Sweden that we could do anywhere, but also that no one could do as good as you. You know what I mean? Right?
Matt:Yeah. So that's kind of where it's where it's all kind of come from or the idea behind behind those articles and and the work that I'm doing today.
Jamie:And what are some of those things? I mean, what's the major difference between like European hockey and North American hockey? What what are the major things that you see that like that happy medium? I mean, we obviously have the skill development. They have the the longer runway and the team based stuff.
Jamie:What would be like the the ultimate developmental model?
Matt:To me, you both kind of hit on it already. It's the communication. You know, the Jokrit in Finland describes themselves as a community of coaches. And what that looks like is once a month, whatever it is, they've got everybody from the u eight to the first team coach in a room. This is what we're doing.
Matt:This is what's going well. This is what's not going well. You know, the u eleven coaches, my kids aren't great at this. Okay. Well, let's look at how we're teaching it in the years before that so that they're ready to execute on this.
Matt:You'll Right. Here, I feel like we and I've mentioned it a couple of times. We silo ourselves into, you know, if I'm the u thirteen coach, I'm worried about my team and my team only.
Jamie:Right.
Matt:And I'm gonna teach you what I know, about this and that where it's not, hey. What were your kids really good at last year? Because maybe I don't have to teach you or work on edges or maybe our system is pretty good. Maybe we don't have to spend as much time on that. Maybe we're working on some of the harder stuff this year.
Matt:Maybe we're adding to it. But that comes from an organizational level. You know, I think that club in particular, the the clubs that we focus on in Europe and and, you know, the ones that we focus on here in in North America as well do so well is there is a a clear linear path for the players that are in that program. And it starts with the coaches are aligned. They understand what the other coaches are teaching.
Matt:They know what the expectations of themselves are. Because if you could have, you know, imagine you you take that kind of model and say them, you know, you're the coach that's teaching offense with the puck, and that's your year, and that's what you're building around. And just imagine what you can do with that when you as a coach know the only thing that you're really adding to the toolbox this year is tools to play offense with the puck. Don't worry about the defensive part because in a couple years, we've got a coach that's gonna do a bang up job on that too. This is what we're focused on this year where, you know, we I think I I think it's left to the coaches are left to their own devices, like I said, with lack of support.
Matt:They just run their team and run and in that case, where we go to at the end of the year to determine success or failure is wins and losses. And it's it's just not the right path there. I couldn't tell you how many times in in the articles that I've had to write or had the opportunity to write that I've had to ask coaches, you know, none of you have said the word winning. When does winning start playing into this? And the first thing they say is trust me, we want to win.
Matt:But at U11, it doesn't matter if we win. Our wins are, hey, we did a great job at this that we've been working on all year of practice. You know, one of the great ideas that I I've seen coaches do or look at is is is just having a bingo card. And it's, you know, here are the things that we're talking about this year. When we do it in a game, our assistant coach is x in that box, x in that box.
Matt:And at the end of the game, if we lose seven one or we win seven one, if we've got a line, if we've got four squares, that's what we're celebrating because that's the message that we're getting across.
Scott:So when you when so it's interesting that you, you know, you made the connection between like that the alignment and the communication from like, that's what's happening overseas as well as what you're seeing in the hockey factories here in North America. Are there other things within, let's say, The United States and Canada that are there other similarities in what these different programs are doing that are helping them become standout?
Matt:Yeah. For sure. And I think that it does all come back to the communication, but it to me, it's a it's a from a an organization standpoint, it's just a clear philosophy of, you know, playing ultimately playing the long game. You know, this is what to expect when you play in our program, kinda like we were talking about before, and and the conviction behind it. You know, I had a chance to talk with Eric Silverman, who was with the Dallas Stars elite program, and he was has been there from from the very beginning.
Matt:And the one thing I was really intrigued with that, because that program is not that old, was, you know, you the success is always delayed. So, you know, you've got a kid that comes in at u seven and this is what we're teaching and we're teaching them this every year, every year. You know, you're not really gonna know if what you've taught has created a good hockey player until maybe they're 14 or 15. And then you gotta be back and say, oh boy, we gotta we gotta fix this. We gotta fix this.
Matt:We gotta fix this. And and the commonality in that and the way Eric had said that with some of the other ones is the constant, the openness to revision, I guess is one way of saying it within an organization. And you talk about it buried where you are, and I think we could probably all name a program or an area that's like that. This is the way we do it because this is the way we've always done it, and we've had success, and that's great. Well, that's that's that's nice.
Matt:But there's so much out there now of different ways to do things that to me from a coach standpoint and from an organization standpoint, You know, if you're not developing as a coach, if you're not learning as a coach, trying new things, challenging yourself, you can't expect that from your players. You can't expect your players to develop if you're not also developing. So I think there's a lot of investment in coach development as well from a in a European standpoint where that's that's the that's the lifeblood. Right? That your program is based off of your coaches.
Matt:So if we aren't doing our service to our coaches in the way that, you know, we're giving them support, we're giving them tools, we're giving them, you know, whether it's through the coaches site, or, you know, you're going on YouTube or things like that. Mean, there is no shortage of information out there.
Jamie:That's for sure.
Matt:But you have to, as an organization, you have to specifically invest in that year over year over year over year over year to see the benefits of what that looks like. And boards are normally done year a year at a time. A coach is only there for a year at a time. It's hard to sell people on a seven year vision when all we think about is one year at a time.
Jamie:Yeah. So it's really the organizations that are in North America that are not taking care of business, which they are overseas. That's really what I'm hearing from you. Right?
Matt:That, you know, when we're looking at that compared to the way that that those programs work compared to some programs that we see just in everyday life. I mean, don't get me wrong. There are probably any number of programs in Europe that are doing a terrible job on development. Sure. And there's probably a ton of programs that we don't talk about in hockey factories that we're not mentioning here that are doing things right in North America and Canada and The US, of course.
Matt:You know, it's more of a general statement than anything else. But ultimately, I think there's just more of an investment in the long term in Europe when maybe the the years have to be adjusted when we're thinking about numbers and ages and stuff like that. Right. Like, you know, do we have time to wait until they're 15 years old to teach them how to play defense, with with the puck carrier? Of course not.
Matt:But there's certainly things that we can do along the way that maybe introduce that but invest in the whole player, the whole person as opposed to always looking for the kid that just skates faster than everybody else and gets eight or 10 breakaways a game. And we say that that kid is is an elite player. So
Jamie:I'm I'm curious. I I wanna turn to world juniors because that just finished. Right?
Scott:Mhmm.
Jamie:You know, and obviously The US and Canada both got bounced out, you know, with all the skill that's there with both of those teams. Are they are they still screaming in Canada about, like, oh, like, we're doing this wrong or, like because, you know, it's funny. I I I wanna say The US and and Canada are doing it wrong, but is the business aspect really just crushing it here? Because I know overseas, a lot of the hockey is subsidized. Right?
Jamie:I mean, it's and here it's it's it's a little different. It's more capitalistic. Right? Yep. I mean, if that were to change, mean, am I right in saying that, Matt?
Jamie:Am I right that the business aspect of here on North America is different than it is overseas? And is that why we don't do things like they do, essentially?
Matt:It's it's certainly gonna be part of it. It's certainly gonna be part of it for sure. Yeah. And and I think, you know, when when you talk about how we responded as as a group, you know, like, yeah, I same thing. I made a post on on LinkedIn that that has gotten a lot of comments from a lot of different different angles.
Matt:You know? There's the you know, like I said, if we had Macron Celebrini and we had the four other kids that are in the NHL, that it would have been a different story. You know? But it's also, you know, the personality of the team. Did art you know, the comment made by the Czechia head coach after the game about working harder was something that really resonated in to a lot of people in, you know, did we have a bit of a country club kind of group as opposed to a gritty team that, you know, was trying to fight against the mountain as opposed to being the team that was expecting to win because of how skilled we are.
Matt:You know, there's a big mindset shift to that. And and oddly enough, and and I hadn't learned this until I was doing the article on on HS Riga and Latvia as a whole in hockey. But Bob Hartley was the national team coach for Latvia for a number of years, the old NHL coach. He is credited really when he went over there of not just bringing in a new system, but bringing in a mindset that, you know, he says, I I came and watched these kids play at the world juniors in in Canada, and they were already losing to nothing. You know, they didn't think like, okay, great.
Matt:We're playing Canada.
Jamie:Right.
Matt:You know, if we can keep it under, you know, the the the mindset at that point was, you know, a a losing eight to six is probably better than losing four to nothing. So it's wide open. There's no you know, they they play it a a completely different game where Bob kind of came in and and was able to develop a mindset amongst these players that end of the day, yes, Canada is here and Latvia is here population wise and enrollment wise and financially and all that. But end of the day, when we play the game, it's five guys on the ice and five guys on the ice and two goalies. And all you gotta say is that the guy across from you is not gonna beat you today.
Matt:And he drilled that mindset into it, and and it's Right. You know, it's it's changed the it changed the way Latvian hockey is is organized completely. So when you when you look at different factors of why, you know, Canada reacted a certain way or what they think a certain way, I think it was certainly an eye opener that perhaps we don't have a broken system, but we have a system that needs to be reviewed. We need to look at this a little bit differently. Not to, you know, we don't need somebody to come out and say, we're doing this wrong.
Matt:We need somebody to come out and say, we're going to learn different ways to do this. You know? And then we go from there.
Scott:Quick question about just on these like more like the best on best tournaments. Mhmm. When you have countries, I don't know, Latvia and know, perhaps Sweden. I I don't know. You would know better than I certainly.
Scott:But potentially, a lot of those players year round are playing together more often as opposed to The US and Canada that are assembling teams closer to the tournament. They're coming from all different coaches, all different leagues. To what extent would you attribute other countries' successes to perhaps the amount of time they've spent playing together leading up to these tournaments versus a team that's put together, you know, much closer to a tournament time?
Matt:It's a great question. I I think there's a lot to it. I think there's a lot to the fact that those kids are familiar with each other, that they, you know, maybe not just in the con in the in the system that they play, but in the country they play in. They may have a particular system, and they have a certain way of playing things. You know, there's there's different, excuse me, different types of players and different, aspects of the game, but, you know, we know what a Finnish team looks like in general.
Matt:It's a puck possession team. It's a skill team. It's a team team as opposed to individual outstanding players. So I think there's a lot of merit to that for sure. And and there, I think, even in the bigger picture, certainly not suggesting that Canada has a certain way of playing hockey everywhere, or The US is always doing it this way.
Matt:But, you know, I take from that, like you said, and this was a conversation I was having not that long ago. It would never happen, but wouldn't it be interesting if our world juniors were in Christmas time like it always was, and we made our selections in October and for the month of half of November and half of December, you went to Canada, you know, we went to Calgary where Hockey Canada's headquarters are, and you built Right. You worked as a team for a month and a half or a month or whatever before the tournament. Do I think if Canada did that just like everybody else did, we'd be having this conversation to be very different. Feel like Canada would steamroll people, but The US would steamroll people, you know, if they did it that way.
Matt:You're not taking these kids out of their junior programs. You're not you know, all of that stuff.
Jamie:We're colleges.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. Saying that, to your point, Scott, I think there's a lot of value to that. And that comes from the thinking or idea around, you know, there isn't a lot of hockey players here. There isn't a lot of opportunity in all of these different towns like there is in different places.
Matt:If we all play together and we're familiar with each other and we're building this team environment, it's going to help us when the skill isn't equatable. Sure.
Jamie:You know, it's it's funny, Matt. You know, you mentioned, like, the the community model that's gone that has overseas, which is kind of, you know, where all these European countries kinda follow. And, obviously, you also mentioned that they do it in Minnesota. So, and you mentioned College Hockey Inc. We had Sadie Lundquist on
Matt:from
Jamie:College Hockey Inc, and we went over a very we went over the community model with her extensively, and we were saying, you know, can that be put in any state in The US and actually have it followed? And I'm trying think what we kind of came I mean, I think the answer was essentially yes.
Scott:Like in theory, it can be replicated, in practicality, can be very difficult for, you know, just starting with the current infrastructure and state of, you
Matt:know No. For sure. There's, you know and this is where I kinda go back to to my conversations with Mike with Mike Snee as well, is there's no reason it can't. And when you look at the numbers, it should entice somebody to look at things that way. But there's a lot of different you know, there's a lot of programs in a lot of states and a lot of different areas where it's easier to, you know, for and he used Iowa as an example.
Matt:You know, it's easier for a program in Iowa to come and take a kid from Minnesota than to develop a kid the entire time that they're playing youth hockey in Iowa. The other part of that too is you're bringing somebody from the outside. You're now taking the place of somebody who's in your community that's coming through all the way through. There's there's a lot of merit behind the community, you know, the community model. And I know, like you said, you talked to Sadie and and got into that a lot.
Matt:So I'm not necessarily advocating for that one way or another. But what I think would be interesting is even in the city, even if you took a, you know, maybe a nontraditional market of hockey that wanted to get in to hockey or whatever that that looks like in that business sense. If even within a community you were to say, you're playing for your particular neighborhood, that we have tournaments within the city, We're not flying to New York. We're not flying to Everything's going to be kind of in house and we're going to do this as a city as opposed to a USA hockey umbrella or program of of that kind of caliber. But, know, we're also, James, like you were saying before about money and and things that we're gonna train for, we're all trained to look for that triple a logo or that elite program.
Jamie:Yes.
Matt:Anything out of that isn't. When you look at the Minnesota model, know, there's 140 programs in that state. There's eight AAA programs in the state of Michigan, and that's a lot in compared to some other states. So which place is more likely to develop the most players realistically is the one that has the most opportunity for the longest amount of time. And that's where we kind of go back to to Europe when we're saying, you know, the most opportunity for the longest amount of time because they don't have the choice.
Matt:You know, you take a city like, you know, let's say Salt Lake City because they've they've got a brand new NHL team, all that. I mean, if Salt Lake City decided that they were gonna run all of their youth hockey development out of Salt Lake City Right. It would be very interesting to see in five, six, seven years
Jamie:what that would look like. Yeah. Yeah. But it's too much of a business. I don't think I don't think there's too much money in it.
Jamie:I don't think you'll ever see that because of the because the money factor behind it. At the
Matt:end of the day, I think that's the hard part for for guys like you and for me to swallow and that just from a from a youth perspective, know, like I said,
Jamie:bringing it back to the
Matt:I I played baseball as a kid. I had no idea what my parents paid for it. It wouldn't have been much for registration and all that. But you know, even my little guy is aware enough. We we go to a sports store near our house because he likes to daydream and stuff, and he goes right to the back of the section where the goalie pads are, and he grabs the goalie pad and he says, oh, this wasn't bad.
Matt:This is only $400. I said, but I'm assuming you're gonna want one on your right leg too. Right?
Jamie:That's right. Oh. That's right.
Matt:Oh. So yeah, like, you know, and ultimately, think the hard part of that, we can't Yeah. What's hard to stomach, there isn't gonna be an answer for is this game is not getting any cheaper. And it's it's getting more and more people away from the game than into it where there's gonna be a sport, you know, it's gonna be cricket or it's gonna be volleyball or it's gonna be kickable
Jamie:or something is gonna fill this void. Yes.
Matt:I've got my my stepdaughter plays soccer and basketball and she's she's super active in all this. She goes to, you know, she registers for basketball. It's $250. She's got to have nice Like shoes and a that's it. That's all she's got to do.
Matt:Know, scary. It's you know, I don't know that that next generation, I think our generation is is fine. We're encouraging that and all that. But even with kids, you know, these days in the entertainment or where they find their entertainment, things like that, It's it's not gonna be an easy sell to to spend $800 to play house league hockey somewhere when I can also spend $250 and they're still getting active and they're still staying off their screens and they're still learning the same kind of thing, you know, and teamwork and winning and losing and working for something bigger than yourself. And and hockey is gonna price itself out of of what hockey really was.
Scott:So so, yeah, I just wanna kinda circle back to something you you brought up in the beginning when you're just kinda talking about yourself and that you're a board member on the Riverside Minor Hockey.
Matt:Yeah. With the Riverside Minor Hockey Association. Yeah.
Scott:So so as a as a board member there and obviously the work that you're doing, like, how what what are you taking back to the organization? And and, like, kinda, like, what, like, maybe best practices that you've seen are you hoping to implement talking about? Like, how how is that kind of translating from, you know, what what you're researching and doing and and and of bringing that to to reality Mhmm. If that makes sense.
Matt:It it does for sure. It's it's challenging for me because I'd love to bring 75 different ideas that I've gotten into this and see it change overnight. Now it's working and it's great. But it it really has to be done, you know, again, it's it's it's baby steps. It's it's incremental things.
Matt:You know, when we are we're gonna be pretty soon looking at, interviewing coaches for for next season, know. How how when was the last time we did a deep dive into what our interview process looks like and the questions that we're asking. And you know, instead of saying, you know, would you, if you were the coach, would you cut your kid? Or you know, what do you think of, what system would you be coaching or whatever? You know, like, oh, they all say yes.
Matt:They're, oh, yeah.
Scott:Absolutely. But,
Matt:you know, instead of asking those questions, it's, know, what is a kid going to get out of you being their coach this year? You know, what what types of things are you going to teach that kid that is gonna help him when he's 18, 19, 20 years old, applying for a job or applying for college or things like that? You know, maybe we're asking different questions this time around. Maybe we're going to get different people from that. And then you get, you know, you can start adding pieces to that.
Matt:Okay. Now we've hired similar minded coaches. Now we've got to put them in the same room together. Now we have to get them talking. Hey, you know, I know that you coached this guy last year and he was a bit of a problem, but then by the end of the year, he was really, really good.
Matt:How did you get in, how did you build that relationship with that kid? So that next year when he's my kid, I know what you've done. We can pick up where we left off instead of having to redo the whole thing, you know. So it's it's little pieces that ultimately can build into a big puzzle. Like we said, the one thing that we struggle with, from from a youth sports perspective more than anything else is just being patient with it.
Matt:You know, it's it it if we start working with a kid that you ate this year and we're teaching him individual things all the way through, we're just adding things into his toolbox at a regular basis. You know, what that kid turns into at 18, he he may not be an NHL player, but I can assure you he's gonna love his time here. He's gonna be a good kid. He's gonna be respectful. He's gonna be somebody that you're gonna wanna hire.
Matt:He's somebody you're gonna want to sit next to in school.
Jamie:They'll have the life skills.
Matt:Yeah. This is what our gift and what we've been able to give them. 100%. At the of the day, has nothing to do with hockey.
Jamie:Zero. It makes him a better human being and that's all that matters.
Matt:Right. Because those are the kids that we're putting, you know, we're spitting back out. Right? You know, and you guys know this just like anybody else. Other than parents and teachers, the person that probably has the biggest influence on the kids' lives in the ages that we're talking about is their coach, is their Yeah.
Matt:Is their sports coach. And I had the principal at, Notre Dame University in Saskatchewan that we did a feature on who was a player, played there, a captain, is now a principal, and making those comparisons between teacher and coach and leader and all of that. His line that he had said that always stuck with me is, you know, it's such a dangerous position in a sense where you're one poorly worded message away from turning a kid off a school for life, you know, or turning him off a hockey for life. You know, there's a great quote and, you know, it was, Jonas Sullivan, I think, that that has it in one of his books or one of his podcasts, which is a great job. You know, as a coach, your influence is never neutral.
Matt:When you walk into a room, if you've had a horrible day at work, you're fighting with your wife, your kids aren't listening, whatever it is. If you walk into that room and you're in a bad mood and and you say something or you bark at a kid, you know, the wrong way or something like that, you don't know what what that could do to that kid, you know. But if you're able to separate that and you can come into the door and this is a positive place and you know, a positive environment or trying to create a culture, you know, at the end of the year, I you know, I can I can remember two baseball coaches that I had as a kid? I never turned pro, obviously, not in the major leagues, but I know that those coaches helped me towards where I'm going today. And I think if you asked Yeah.
Matt:95% of the coaches out there of what they want that or what they hope the kids get out of their experience with them coaching is that they they simply help them be a better person, you know. And I think that's we lose that in everything we talk about and everything that we joke about it, about who does this better and who does this and we're struggling here. And of the day, we're trying to do is just create the best youth sports experience we can for the kids that we have in our system or in our homes or whatever for as long as possible because we all know as sports fans how many tools you can learn from playing a sport individual or a team that are going to help you when you're somebody's boss or you work for somebody or, you know, you're a parent or you're a spouse or or anything like that.
Jamie:Hockey does a good job of doing that,
Matt:I think. Does a great job. I don't think there's of everything bad that we've said about hockey today, I I don't think that there's another sport that does it better than hockey. And I think you see that in the players at the highest level. You know, there's obviously, there's there's good and bad in in every organization and level or whatever, but I don't think there's a better athlete that gives back that recognizes that that, you know, has that community aspect in mind than hockey players.
Jamie:I agree. Well said. Well said. That's actually a great place to wrap this up. Perfect.
Jamie:He's kept you on for about an hour and a half.
Scott:I know. Thank you
Matt:so much. Thank good. You. Could I could keep going like I was saying to you guys earlier, but my my background in hockey or in broadcasting, should say. Give me two minutes or two hours, I can fill the time.
Matt:But now you're talking about something that I've really gotten passionate about.
Jamie:And I have to tell you, I have like a list of notes here that I didn't even get to get into. So I'm gonna have to have you back on. Yeah, I have a pad right here. That's great. And this pad that I didn't even get to get into yet.
Jamie:Oh no. So we're gonna have to have you back on. We love to. Yeah, this was great, Matt. Thank you so much.
Scott:Thank you
Jamie:so This is very
Scott:exciting. Really appreciate it. For sure.
Jamie:Love to have you back on like after the Olympics so we can kind
Scott:of go through this stuff again. Oh, that'd great. Yeah.
Matt:For sure. I'm I'm game if you are guys, sorry, for sure. Yeah. 100%.
Scott:And before we before we go, just where can people find you, find your work,
Jamie:you
Scott:know, either on Internet or get in touch with you?
Matt:Sure. The best way to find me now is my brand new website that I so less than less than a week old. It's it's mattdumouchelle.com. It's got information in there and how to get in touch with me and stuff and some of the things that I've worked on with organizations and and coach development and family support and and things like that. You know, I post fairly often on LinkedIn.
Matt:And then the coachessite.com is gonna have the house of hockey factories is there. Some other individual articles and stuff that we've done and not to promote a podcast on a podcast, but we've also launched the, coach coaching crossover podcast
Jamie:on
Matt:the coaches site too, which has been really exciting. So, you know, there's there's a lot, a lot of exciting things going on, but I'd I'd love to to help, or or kind of work through, any problems that are or situations that he has, because that's, like I said, I I didn't get a chance to to play hockey as a kid. Hockey has given me a lot more than I could ever give back. So this is, this is just my my way of hopefully, doing that.
Jamie:You're doing a good job, Matt.
Matt:Thanks. I appreciate you much.
Jamie:Thanks so much for the time. I really appreciate this. This is great. We're we're definitely doing this after the Olympics. We'll have you back on.
Matt:Good. Alright.
Jamie:Thanks, man.
Scott:Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Alright, everybody. Welcome back from another amazing interview. Dude, we keep on bringing in, like, guests that honestly, I'm I'm feeling so lucky that we have opportunities to talk to people from so many different with so many different backgrounds and experiences, and certainly super interesting to listen to to Matt and his experience, especially even talking about, like, know, the the four, like, you know, how overseas and, you know, that that the IQ, like, you know, what to you know, how how they go about their programming, you know, for Yeah.
Scott:Youth hockey, how, like, you know, this is what you're gonna learn this season, and there's transparency, and they lay it out. And, of course, that's not gonna be, you know, the only thing that they learn, but they keep on building. So when a coach takes on a team from the year prior, they know exactly where they left off in terms of, like, their their training, and it is just it it makes so much sense. Right?
Jamie:Kinda makes you wonder why we don't do that here.
Scott:Well, I mean
Jamie:I mean, I know why, but I wonder why they don't kind of push that more to try to get us to be those types of models, right?
Scott:Well, it's, you know, it's also different. Think, and I could be mistaken, but I I think a lot of like the the rinks are like government, like, owned and operated, and I think that True. There's there's less private business wound up into at least, like, maybe the ice rinks potentially. I I I don't know enough about those economics, but, yeah, I mean, clearly, the the business side of things is where, you know, things start to get more difficult to have, like even USA Hockey today, like they'd have to be such a massive organization to go out and like, you know, spend enough time with each organization and each region, you know what I mean? True.
Scott:For accountability purposes.
Jamie:Yes. True. And I think that kind of came to light a little when we talked to Heather Mannix from USA Hockey. Right? Yeah.
Jamie:We have have not released that that interview yet. That's coming on a future episode, but that was one of things that Heather mentioned. Right? Not to kinda, you know, you know, let the cat out the bag, but but Heather was saying that, you know, it's a very large country with a lot of regions, you know, and they only have so much manpower to kind of go around to those regions and, you know, really, really have their finger on the pulse of what everybody's doing. Right?
Jamie:Is that fair?
Scott:Yeah. Absolutely.
Jamie:Whereas in other countries where it obviously, there's a much smaller population, they have an easier time doing that. And like you were mentioning, you know, we're more of a capitalistic system here. Right? You know, the government doesn't own our rinks. The rinks aren't owned by, like, the local communities like they are well, I guess they are in Minnesota, but it's not like that anywhere else in The US.
Jamie:But, yeah, our our setup is different than theirs, and their players, I think, benefit from it, in my opinion. Right? May have more players by volume just because we're a much larger country, but, you know, I I sometimes wish that our players here kind of were kind of more taught on those models if you want me to be truly honest, You know?
Scott:Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean go ahead.
Jamie:No. No. I was gonna say, I mean, can you imagine what our players would look like if they just literally spent, like if every single organization spent, you know, your squirt minor year learning x, you know, your squirt majorly year earning y learning y. I just wonder how much more skilled our kids would be. I don't know.
Scott:You know, that's hard to say. I think I think the the thing that I would be most what's the word I'm looking for? In favor of, in terms of having a model like that is that it it kinda level sets all organizations. Yeah. Okay.
Scott:The the coach teaching, you know, it's like having it it's like, you know, school, elementary school. Know? It's the the curriculum is standardized by the state. Know, then you've got different teachers teaching the same subjects, you know, and and, of course, you know, a better teacher is is amazing to have compared to a worse teacher, that surely would happen, I guess, over there as well. But just the fact that you don't have to be so, like, concerned whether or you're going to an organization where my kid's gonna learn something, you know, because in theory, it's it's standardized.
Scott:Right?
Jamie:Yeah. You know, it's funny. We spent the weekend up in up in Upstate New York, and and we sat down with Alec Marsh, our buddy Alec Marsh Yeah. From I forgot what episode. But one of the things that he kept stressing to me about, like, plans for next year were, you know, make sure the development is good.
Jamie:Make sure the development is good. How's the development? Right? Didn't care about the games. It was just what's the development like?
Jamie:What kind of on ice you getting? What kind of off ice you getting? You know, was really, really pushing the development. It wasn't pushing how many games are you playing or who's the head coach. You know, it was all about the development.
Jamie:That was pretty telling, to be honest with you.
Scott:Yeah. And and look, mean, just kind of segueing into, what a lot of families are probably going through nowadays. I mean I mean, that's something if you have if you are making a choice about where you're going next season, you know, or where you're gonna try out, you know, get as much information as you can on the coach that's gonna be, you know, coaching your kids, you know, potential team or that birthday or, you know, it's the last season, you know, I gave you know, we'd already knew we were gonna go to the particular organization. So it's not like I was, like, you know, trying to interview coaches. But before we signed up, you know, I reached out to the coach and just asked them questions and Yeah.
Scott:You I it's important that yeah. And I think it's important that other families, you know, like, do that as well. And even, you know, for next season, you know, I think we're starting to get a clearer picture of what our plan is for next year. Good. You know, I've talked to a coach and, you know, kinda asked some questions about this, that, and the next, and, you know, what this one coach had to say was like, yeah, totally aligned with everything you're saying.
Scott:You know,
Jamie:it's Was it more was it very developmentally focused?
Scott:Absolutely.
Jamie:Nice.
Scott:Absolutely. It was, you know
Jamie:That's the idea.
Scott:Like, almost quoting, but it's like, I don't care about the wins and losses, don't care about my hockey rankings, I just care that, you know, the group that I have in the beginning, by the, you know, the end of the season, they're gonna be a much improved team. So in any event and and also praising the right things, like, I you know, there's plenty of teams that get, like, you know, the the WWE size belt for player of the game or, like, a chain or whatever. I mean, it sounds like this team's gonna be praising things like
Jamie:Effort.
Scott:Like being a dog on the ice, you know, like, compete level, and blocking shots, and not the things that, like, you know, kids are going home to Instagram and watching those kind of highlights. You know what I mean? So
Jamie:Right. Right. Otto's gonna be a second year Pee Wee next year?
Scott:That's correct. Yep.
Jamie:Alright. Listen. So It's exciting.
Scott:Yeah. How about how about on your end?
Jamie:No more hockey on our end. We're done with our season. Yeah. I don't even know if we talked about this. We lost in, in I guess the quarterfinals of playoffs, to a really good team, a team that beat us, I think, three-one or four-one mid season.
Jamie:Probably the best double A team that we played all year. Did we talk about signing? Remember?
Scott:I don't.
Jamie:I don't remember. But yep, we lost them. So we're done now. We had practice. I guess we had practice, like you were saying at the beginning.
Jamie:You know, some teams just haven't practice until March. We're one of those teams. But, you know?
Scott:So the season season, like, now in the rearview mirror, good season?
Jamie:Wins and losses, good season.
Scott:Okay.
Jamie:Development
Scott:wise?
Jamie:I don't know how much he developed. I don't know how to answer that.
Scott:Is he a better player now than he was at the beginning of the season? Anything that you noticed on ice that, like, maybe was what?
Jamie:No. He's not a better player. He was he he started the opening the opening weekend, like, on fire. So, no, I think he is was a worse player at the end of the season than he was at the beginning of the season. He did And you're
Scott:you're you feel like you're being fair and?
Jamie:He looked like a better hockey player at the beginning of the season. Now I think things like a change in school kind of kicked him in the teeth. Okay. So he had a lot of stress from school. He had so that was big.
Jamie:Like he struggled in math this year. He's still struggling in math. So I think that all of a sudden school became very hard, you know? So I think that kind of weighed on him and that kind of that affected his play. His play went downhill.
Jamie:So do I think he's a better hockey player at the end of the season? The answer is no. I don't think so. I think Dominic was actually a better hockey player at the beginning of the season. Probably all self inflicted.
Jamie:Right?
Scott:You mean, like, he did it to himself?
Jamie:Yeah. You know? Okay. Very hard on himself. Kinda went into a slow list.
Jamie:In the grand scheme of things, you know, you know, he he probably had something like 55 points in, like, 50 games. So in the grand scheme of things, not bad. Right? But you asked the question, was he a better hockey player at the end of the season than he was at the beginning? And I would say no.
Jamie:Because he he he looked like a date more dangerous hockey player at the begin in the opening showcase at the beginning of the season. And then he kinda slowly kinda tailed off from there. For he also played a little defense.
Scott:Defense.
Jamie:You know? So, like, some things happened this year. So it was it was a strange year. You know what I mean? Would it have been different if he had played, like, one position the entire season?
Jamie:Maybe. You know? In that last but I think, again, I think I think it's all, like, anxiety driven, and it's all mental. You know? It's not that he doesn't have the ability.
Jamie:He does. I think the hitting part also was new, you know?
Scott:Yeah, but I feel like he excelled in that area, no?
Jamie:He did. He did. No question about it.
Scott:It changes the dynamic. There's no doubt.
Jamie:It the game when, you know, you know and I have to tell you, like, you know, he could get bumped off the puck easier, you know, this year, you know, and that frustrated him too. You know, the fact that he was making a move, and he got bumped off the puck. You know? Right. You know?
Jamie:So yeah. I I don't know. So was it a good year? It was a year. You know?
Jamie:You know? I I don't really know how to listen. There was a lot of adversity, and I think that he was able to manage it. It didn't kill him. It didn't listen.
Jamie:It it it probably hampered his play in a bunch of different ways, But I like the adversity. I like the fact that he had to fight through it. And you push forward, you know? Because it's not a sprint, right? It's a marathon.
Jamie:So I hope that answers your question in kind of like a long winded way.
Scott:No, dude. Listen, not every season is going to be, you know, one for the ages or, you know, even half of that. Right? So, look, every you know, I think for Otto, like, there's, in some ways, there's some things that he got better at. Right.
Scott:There's some things that didn't change much. There's some things that I think, you know, having another I think by the end by the end of the season, and we'll see what happens in playoffs. But I feel like that drip, drip, drip of the same message of, like, where there's opportunities for improvement, like, I think some of it really started to settle in, and he actually you know, you could see some more effort in certain situations than maybe what I saw earlier. I think he was happy to, you know, be one of the top scorers on the team, you know, which, you know, for kids his age, that's always, you know, that's
Jamie:It's important to them.
Scott:You know, it's important. Yeah, it also adds an element of like, you know, feel good, self esteem stuff.
Jamie:Yeah, sure. I get it.
Scott:I think he was a little low on that at the end of last season, so that was good. So I I think on aggregate, it was I I there's part of me that wants to say it was a good season.
Jamie:He starts to sound like me now.
Scott:I know. Because I think I think this was the right move for us, and I think I think it where our expectations weren't met were alongside of, like, yeah, I I think, like, the overall hockey IQ stuff, fundamental habits. Like, I didn't go to this team thinking it was gonna be as good as the teams that he was on, like, for sure not. But, you know, they just never really materialized, I think, at higher expectations for what happened for them as a team at large. But well, I know I did.
Scott:But all in all, I think I think this season for him was one that had he stayed where he was, like, had he stayed where he was, I don't think he would've it would've been really tough, really tough. And I think this is what he needed. Even though it was tough in different ways, I think he he was yeah. It would've been too much to commute continue to commute and, like, whatever and blah blah blah. Anyway So happy
Jamie:with the fact that you guys took him from triple a to double. You think that was a Yes. A good move for your family, for him?
Scott:For sure.
Jamie:You know? It's I think parents get a little twisted sometimes too, Scott. And you tell me if I'm wrong. I think they think that you when you can't leave triple a, if you ever leave triple a, you'll never go back to triple a. You know?
Jamie:Sometimes kids need a reset. Right?
Scott:Yeah. And and and maybe sometimes, like, you know, who knows? Maybe, like, Otto's just gonna be a double a player. You know what I mean? Like, that's not something I, like, would have thought, like, originally, but, you know I'm not sure that's true.
Scott:But I don't I don't I'm not saying I believe that, but, you know, like, it also you know, I I I think if you move your kid from triple a to double a and, you know, you realize that, you know, it's it's just it's just a game, you know, and it with double a, there's less there's less, like, importance on, like, the things that people get caught up in, you know, and it just I don't know. I I feel like it kinda brought me down to Earth a little bit, you know, and and it just it's okay. Just as long as he has fun, you know, like, just as long as he has fun.
Jamie:Yeah. No. That that part's important to foster the love of the game, let them have fun, you know, don't be too helicopter y of a parent. Right? Listen, Connor Connor Hallebuck played double a's entire youth career.
Scott:Yeah, I did. And there was 13 goalies taken before him the year he was drafted. 13
Jamie:Is that right?
Scott:Were taken before him. Yeah. He was drafted, like, the fifth round.
Jamie:Right. So for all the people in our comment sections that think you have to play triple a or else they won't find you,
Scott:it's not
Jamie:clearly not the case. Right?
Scott:No. But look, I mean, I think a lot of people also say that, you know, fourteen, fifteen, 16, if you're if you're trying to go play, like, division one or Oh. High level hockey, like, yeah, you're probably gonna have to be competing at a triple a level. Like, I I don't you know, it's yes, there are people that never played triple a and go on to do great things. I I think the majority of there's extremes on both ends.
Scott:Right? People that were like studs from jump and they're studs till the end. And there are people that don't really come into their own until they're in the AHL or the NHL. But
Jamie:That's right.
Scott:I I think for most, there there are certain know, there you you have to reach certain, like, abilities, you know, for most people.
Jamie:Yeah. No. I think it's true. Yeah. So you're happy with your year overall.
Jamie:Right? To kind of recap.
Scott:I mean, I'm happy for Otto. I I think it reset a lot of things for him. I am disappointed in the season, generally speaking.
Jamie:From a wins loss, are you talking about?
Scott:Just from, like, an overall, like, just just from an overall perspective, like, the wins losses, I that's not, like, something I prioritize, but it's just, like, I don't feel like the team ever really, you know, started playing a team game. I it was, selfish hockey from the beginning to the end, you know?
Jamie:Interesting. We went over that a couple episodes ago.
Scott:Yeah.
Jamie:You know, we talked about that. Okay. Listen.
Scott:Look, I'm not saying there were never elements of, like, team play because there were. I think just, like, overall, though, that that the the selfishness never it never got buried. Like, it it just was always it was always there.
Jamie:Okay.
Scott:There were moments where it was more. There's moments where there was less, but, you know, I think that was like, you know.
Jamie:Okay. Well, listen. I I think as a parent, you know, you need to look at the season, you know, and and figure out what your kid took out of it. And maybe the answer is nothing. And you need to make a move to another team or, you know, maybe the answer is he did this or he did that.
Jamie:It's all just a spoke in the wheel, right, that is their youth hockey life cycle.
Scott:And it is. No,
Jamie:but seriously, it's just you look back on this, right, when you look back on this, you know, nobody's gonna be like, Wow, you know, how did your, you know, peewee minor a year ago?
Scott:No. Right? Listen. I'll I'll say this, though. I mean, you talk about things that are that are not hockey related.
Scott:I don't think I've ever had so many different hockey friends at this house. Like, from granted last year, the kids were from further away. But, like, even when Otto played at the Avs where there's more local kids, I look, they were younger also then, but, like, at the Right. We had tons of friends over, like, you know, tons, and he went to different friends. So, like, socially, it was, I think, a great season for him.
Jamie:It was great for him. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, you know, I was telling you, went up to see Alec Marsh this past weekend up in Geneva, and we went to a couple Hobart games, and I'm standing next to a mom from the opposite team. Hobart was playing Fredonia.
Jamie:Okay. Okay. And I'm standing there talking to a mom who happened to be from Rye, New York, right here, right? Not far from us at all. Her kid plays for Fredonia.
Jamie:So I started talking to her because she was standing right next to me and like her kid obviously went down the right wing and shot and goalie saved it and she kind of did like this. Kind of jumped a little bit. So I looked at her and I said, Your son?
Scott:Oh, really?
Jamie:Yeah. So I started talking to her, and I said, what year is he? And she goes she goes, well, he he's a freshman. And I and I was like I was like and she's and she's kinda like paused before she said it. I was like, like, I was just curious what the pause was for.
Jamie:And she's like, well, he's a 22 year old freshman. And I was like, I looked at it and I was like, isn't that normal now for like hockey players? She's like, yeah, he played a couple years of juniors. I was like, yeah, that's not uncommon. Was like, That's kinda the standard now.
Jamie:Yeah. You know, I guess the reason I'm bringing that up is because nobody really gives a shit what your Pee Wee minor year was, is my point.
Scott:No doubt.
Jamie:Right? I mean, he's a 22 year old freshman in college playing d three hockey. Like, you know, nobody's gonna go up to him and be like, so, do you remember your kid's Pee Wee minor year?
Scott:No. No, of course not.
Jamie:My point is it's just another cog in the wheel of development.
Scott:No doubt.
Jamie:Right? Right.
Scott:Yeah.
Jamie:As long as the kids take something out of it and they foster love or or the parent can try to foster love of the game, everything else is easy.
Scott:Yeah, man.
Jamie:You just kinda go with the punches. You know, I I will say this. The difference when you're watching division three hockey. Okay. And there were parents all around us.
Jamie:K, from from both teams. You didn't hear and Nancy pointed this out. She was Jamie. She was, you noticed that there's not one parent in the stands that's going, shoot the puck, pass it, get him, hit him, skate harder, faster, you know, go, skate with it. Not one peep from any hockey parent.
Scott:Well, what? You were in the middle of the hockey parent section? How do you know?
Jamie:Because Hobart, the cooler that they play, it's called the cooler Yeah. Was not a was not a very it's not a very large building. Okay. Seats 500 people.
Scott:Gotcha.
Jamie:Like, it's tiny. You know what
Matt:I'm Okay.
Jamie:There's parents all around you. And we had run into some, like, at lunch when we were having lunch with Marsh in this place called Water Street Cafe, and a parent on the hockey team walked up to him, like, right there while we were eating, and I saw the gentleman. He was like a couple seats down from me. So you saw, Scott, you didn't hear boo from any parent.
Scott:What's the takeaway?
Jamie:The takeaway is that maybe we should all just shut our mouths and watch because those parents are just sitting there watching. Do you know who was the loudest lady there right here? This crazy no. This crazy woman sitting right next to us, and we so we went to the game Friday night against Buffalo State, and then Saturday night against Fredonia.
Matt:Okay.
Jamie:There was a woman sitting next to me to my left with her husband, and, like, their friends are sitting in front of them, And she's like super fan. She must have been like 65, right? There with her husband there and there. She's got like her Hobart earrings her Hobart her Hobart cowbell. Right?
Jamie:And, like, whenever something good happens, her and her her and her gaggle like they shake their cowbell, you know? You know? And they were the loudest people in the in the joint. Right? And the funny part about it was is there was like a scrum over in the corner to our right.
Jamie:Yeah. And this woman who basically was just loud with her cowbells all game long, all of a sudden she goes, like, they're in, a scrub in the corner, and they were kinda, like, not throwing haymakers, but they were kinda, like, pushing and shoving and throwing a little bit of hands. She's like so we're all watching down to our right, and she's behind me to my left because we're all turned, and you hear this and get this sweet old lady, like short haircut, glasses, looks like a professor at the school.
Scott:Right? Yeah.
Jamie:All of sudden you hear her go, get the fuck off of him. From this like, like, little lady. Was, like, unbelievable.
Scott:Didn't see it coming.
Jamie:Oh, my God. Right? Like, so but the point is is that, like, the parents said nothing. They said zero from this date. How many times do you have a game?
Jamie:Rizzioni was talking about it when we interviewed him. He's like, to get them, pass it, Johnny. You know? Shoot. Shoot.
Jamie:That you know? You know, like, you hear Scott, you heard none of that. Parents just sit there quietly and watch. They go to the locker room after, they give their kid a hug. Boom.
Jamie:Let's go out to dinner. That's that. Like, it's easy.
Scott:Well, listen. I I I think and I could be way wrong because I haven't thought about this at all. But, like, at some point, clearly, like, you know, no matter how much, like, you tell your kids something, like, they they they take responsibility for their own decisions. Like, you know, the I think from a parental perspective, there's gotta be a time when, like, you feel like, alright, that window is closed where I can actually, like, you know, influence him or her, you know, and look, but you're also at, like, a game attended by 500 not like, you know, I don't know. Whatever the deal is.
Scott:But, yeah, I mean
Jamie:My point is that you didn't hear any crazy hockey parents. You know, they were all we were they were all just sitting there watching and
Scott:They're well behaved hockey parents.
Jamie:Oh, it was like listen. Now listen. Hobart's very good. Right? I mean, they they won three straight national championships on the way to winning a fourth right now.
Jamie:You know, the playoffs start on
Scott:Wednesday have much to yell about then, I guess.
Jamie:I mean, listen. But you don't hear
Matt:any of
Scott:parents success.
Jamie:You don't hear any of the parents going bananas in the stands. You you just don't. Nobody says Scott, nobody says boo. Nobody says a thing. You know?
Jamie:That's very telling. And all these kids are playing college hockey. You know?
Scott:So you're saying that the parents, like, that that that you're you're hypothesizing that these parents might have been that way when their kids were younger too. Yes. Is that what you're saying?
Jamie:Correct. Maybe there's maybe there's a correlation between now that their kid is good enough to play d three hockey. You know? I'm just saying maybe it was it was a takeaway that that we noticed. Nancy noticed it.
Jamie:She turned to me and she goes, Jamie, do you notice? And she said it, and I was like, oh, Nancy. You're right. You know, Maybe there's something to be said for that. Maybe we all just need to relax and just watch our kid play and foster the love of the game and let them go on their journey, and we are just there to support and drive and pay for it.
Scott:Yeah. I'll make a deal with you. I we can both remind each other of that when we're both feeling like we're ready to
Jamie:Snap. To snap.
Scott:Jump off the deep end.
Jamie:Yeah. And may and maybe when you
Scott:get James. It's a lovely game.
Jamie:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Tell me that when I call you next time in a in a panic.
Scott:I will.
Jamie:But I'm saying maybe there's something to that.
Scott:No. It's definitely part of the conversation. I mean, definitely part of, like, the the whole picture.
Jamie:You would think so. Right?
Scott:No, it is. No, I think it's Yeah,
Jamie:it was good. It was interesting to see some division three hockey. That Hobart team is Wow. They're very good hockey.
Scott:That's awesome. Good for him. Good for Alex.
Jamie:Yeah. Bunch of D1 transfer kids. They're like a well oiled machine.
Scott:That's pretty sick.
Jamie:Yeah. Pretty cool to watch. You ever Nice to in that area, go catch a game. Try not to get snowed in there, but yeah, it's
Scott:a Probably not gonna be near there anytime soon, but
Jamie:It is not around the corner, right? It is not easy to get to, that's for sure, up in Geneva, New York. Lovely area in the Finger Lakes, but not the easiest place to get to.
Scott:Alright. Well, you did it, and you made it back. And We did. Just in time to shovel.
Jamie:Just in time to shovel.
Scott:Turn off your why why do you have so many timers?
Jamie:I don't
Scott:it's not What time are you what are you setting alarms for?
Jamie:I I don't even know who that was.
Scott:That was your that's what your phone sounds like when it rings?
Jamie:Yeah. I think so. I forgot to I don't know. Forgot to turn the ring off. What do want me to tell you?
Scott:I don't know.
Jamie:I don't know. You're saying my ringer is like is not up to par?
Scott:No, it just goes off often. Must be very popular.
Jamie:I don't think so. I think that's it.
Scott:Okay. Anyhow, why don't you you want to wrap this one up?
Jamie:Yes, this was fun, man.
Scott:Oh, wait. Sorry, sorry. Let me just double check the time. Oh, We're at we're twenty nine minutes and forty three seconds. Is
Jamie:that too early? Didn't cut anybody short. I didn't bust your No. Don't want to
Scott:cut you short.
Jamie:Well, I was and I didn't want to I didn't want to bust your chops today and and get anybody else upset. So, you know No. You can.
Scott:You didn't teach me
Jamie:anything today. I I took it easy on you today. You know what I mean? Did did alright. So so your your family has been stuck in Florida now with the winter weather.
Jamie:Did you at least watch any good movies?
Scott:You know what's so funny? And I'm not I'm not lying. I was going to call you and last night and say, dude, what movie should I watch?
Jamie:Listen, I was you should have. But I didn't. You should have. Was in the car on the way home from Geneva.
Scott:So Okay. So I'll ask you now. What movie should I watch?
Jamie:Are we talking like one that, like, you've seen in Oh, no. Or you when the okay. Have you seen old school in a while?
Scott:Not recently. No.
Jamie:You should go into old school. Wedding Crashers, old school, Talladega Nights, Anchorman, I mean, Dodgeball.
Scott:Okay.
Jamie:I can keep going. Have you seen any of these in a while?
Scott:No. Some of them I have never seen and definitely haven't seen any of them recently. Would probably say the most I would probably say Wedding Crashers is the one that I've seen most recently, but it's been years.
Jamie:I said wedding crashes. Right? Yeah. Okay. Well, but I'm sorry.
Jamie:Wedding crashes, the one you have seen? Is that what you're saying? Yes. Oh, sorry. My bad.
Jamie:I I got that.
Scott:Probably, but it's been a long time. Anyway I'm thinking thinking a good list. Gonna keep that list, and I will chip away at it at some point.
Jamie:Yes. At some point, yes. And and you let me know what you think, and we'll do a we'll do a crazy
Scott:hockey funny movies. It's it's not a matter of what I think. Part of my yawn. Just my memory of the lines that you drop are not up to a They're fantastic. Movie buff status.
Jamie:Well, need to speak in your Italian nights. Maybe you need to go get a macchiato.
Scott:Alright, Ricky Bobby.
Jamie:Oh my god. Yes. Oh. That's impressive.
Scott:Okay. It's
Jamie:nice. See, you're learning. I love it, buddy. I love it.
Scott:Let's wrap this up.
Jamie:Alright, Helmer. I'll talk to you later.
Scott:Peace out.
Jamie:See you, buddy. Bye.