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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;17;01 - 00;00;17;22
Aaron
The ticker is ETH?
00;00;17;24 - 00;00;28;23
Derek
The ticker is most definitely. We are back September 18th when we're recording this. 11:46 a.m. Eastern Time. I am in New York with the homies. What's going on, guys?
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Pri
Hey, we're all here in person together. Love these.
00;00;32;07 - 00;00;33;27
Derek
These are my favorite episodes.
00;00;34;03 - 00;00;38;08
Chris
Derek is so bullish. He actually showed up for a podcast episode.
00;00;38;10 - 00;00;39;13
Derek
Listen.
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Chris
He needed more platform.
00;00;40;26 - 00;00;49;13
Derek
Exactly. I just needed I wanted to to enter the the Brooklyn Echo chamber chamber and try a little bit more with you guys about it in person.
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Pri
You're in the right place. You are in the right place. So what's driving the bullishness? Is it the fact that clarity failed or or what.
00;00;57;06 - 00;01;17;03
Derek
Yeah I mean I think, you know, clarity has been on the ropes for a long time. I think there was some last last minute kind of enthusiasm. But ultimately the the rumors coming out of DC was that this thing was basically DOA. You know, the market has basically been pricing this thing as a zero for the last six months.
00;01;17;03 - 00;01;44;00
Derek
And so, you know, the the the more interesting thing is like, what is a world post clarity look like? And I think over the last six months, both the SEC and the CFTC have made, you know, made it pretty clear that they plan to get very involved via regulation, like the rule making process and trying to. Yeah, to to create some, some guidance via rulemaking.
00;01;44;00 - 00;02;09;25
Derek
And of course, like, you know, letting people comment on that rulemaking. But I think they are both a going to be very creative about what they do to enact policy that they're excited about and be very aggressive in, kind of like their approach. You know, the as we've got another couple of years of of this presidency, these are, you know, these are Senate appointed positions.
00;02;09;25 - 00;02;32;13
Derek
And right now the, the the Republicans control the Senate. And so as long as, you know, nothing crazy happens, I would say this, the the strategy of 24 months of rulemaking and trying to carve out guidance for some of these harder questions feels like we're on pace for something pretty interesting. I think that's what the market is responding to.
00;02;32;19 - 00;02;37;18
Aaron
And that is not going to change regardless of party. It's really hard in the US for.
00;02;37;19 - 00;02;37;25
Derek
It's.
00;02;37;25 - 00;02;48;25
Aaron
True for like an agency that backtrack on something or position that a previous agency took so they can reinterpret things, they can make it like they can narrow things and span things, but.
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Pri
Especially if there's going to be like two years of new businesses and others that are relying on that rulemaking, like it would be very.
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Derek
Once you get started, it's hard online.
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Pri
For sure. And like you're going to run them in two years. Like that's not gonna.
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Aaron
Yeah. I mean, because then, you know, folks that are just everyday businesses, they don't like that because then they get worried that that's going to happen in their neck of the woods. So the agencies tend to be consistent.
00;03;13;00 - 00;03;15;07
Pri
Do you think this cuts against Chevron though?
00;03;15;09 - 00;03;45;16
Aaron
So I think because Congress has indicated that they don't want to rule here, it should protect that. But that I that's so like a open question exactly where Congress has 30 ends and where like the agencies are now able to kind of act. So maybe there's a challenge working there. But my sense is in spirit. A lot of the rules are similar to the SEC and CFTC rulemaking process as to what was in the Clarity Act.
00;03;45;16 - 00;04;11;24
Aaron
So it could be a net neutral or even a net benefit. And then it preserves any investigations that I think will probably see around the current administration, allies of that administration, and likely mean points. So I think the battle is going to be increasingly just moved to like, what should the rules be around mean assets. That'd be my my best guess.
00;04;11;26 - 00;04;31;03
Chris
You really think that once, once all this gets going, that's where the attention is going to turn, going to turn to how to properly legislate, adjudicate and maybe spin up countless investigations that actually result in nothing. Yeah. Around meme technology and meme tokenization? Yes.
00;04;31;05 - 00;04;31;27
Derek
What do you guys think of.
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Chris
Grumpy cat Dot pig?
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Aaron
It's going to be a big national issue. Chris.
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Derek
What do you guys think of importance? I may miss this point.
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Aaron
To me, they're like the pawn of crypto.
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Derek
Like go on.
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Aaron
Yeah. So they're going to exist. But I don't think you only want crypto to be about meme coins. Just like if the entire internet was just adult entertainment, like that would not have been good for the internet.
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Pri
I mean, porn did on board a lot of users to the internet, though.
00;05;04;10 - 00;05;05;03
Aaron
It did.
00;05;05;04 - 00;05;09;04
Pri
Yeah. Does an analogy hold here where winds will?
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Aaron
I mean, it could be the same thing potentially, but I just think if it's too predominant, it kind of like so it chokes out the the more fruitful use cases and it creates like a lot of complications.
00;05;21;02 - 00;05;30;20
Derek
Was your point just now though, that you think that there will be more tempered guidance against how many wins exist or proliferate or what's the what was the point you're making?
00;05;30;21 - 00;05;41;22
Aaron
I think that the inquest that will happen against the current administration and the their, their allies is going to probably root around equally.
00;05;41;24 - 00;05;42;22
Derek
Oh, I see what you're saying.
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Aaron
So and through that, I think there's probably going to be a call.
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Derek
Do you think there will be a chill that expands out?
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Aaron
I don't know if it's even a chill or just will start to narrow that. I think that same narrowing is going to happen around prediction markets, though, to I think that they're either necessary evils. Like you can't stop them from happening or there's limited social benefits, socially limited. They're socially beneficial in a limited way. And I think that that recognition is slowly seeping out.
00;06;12;00 - 00;06;27;14
Aaron
They'll kind of like like hemet in a bandit, but like him in it's like a little bit like alcohol. Like, we don't need everybody to be drinking Everclear, you know, all day long. Right. Like a super high proof alcohol blind. There's just a.
00;06;27;14 - 00;06;32;29
Chris
Reason you went there. Just want everyone with a jug of shine. Blinding themselves.
00;06;33;01 - 00;06;51;28
Derek
Yeah, but, like, I guess my big question on this is like, how? How would you regulate against mean ones? Like, I think the, the way we do it with alcohol, for example, or guns is like we set age limit. So we set kind of like permitting or licenses like meme tokens. This feels more like a free market policy question of what?
00;06;51;29 - 00;06;57;03
Derek
How far you want to extend barriers to participation and access. Like how would you think about that?
00;06;57;04 - 00;07;16;26
Aaron
I don't think I have the answer. I think I'd probably look first to like the platforms where they're either generated, traded like primarily not like the settlement layer, like a blockchain, but more like the the place where a lot of that activity happens. And then I don't know what types of rules I put in place there, but I think there are venues.
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Aaron
You know, yes, there can be other like offshore venues, but I think a lot of that activity still wraps through us onshore venues, and they're probably can be some things that are cleaned up there. If you look at like what happened during the last cycle, like around pump pump fun, I mean, I think that there was like a fair amount of shenanigans, at least, that were alleged.
00;07;36;25 - 00;07;38;14
Aaron
I don't know if they're true or not.
00;07;38;15 - 00;07;43;00
Derek
So yeah, I think that stuff one is tough one.
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Pri
Yeah, there's a funny one. I mean, like, I don't even know how you begin regulating it or if it should be at all like it's it's weird.
00;07;48;28 - 00;08;19;20
Derek
It's tough because, like, there are memetic reasons for why these markets work in the first place. I think there are, you know, maybe another way of saying this is Bitcoin and Dogecoin are actually more similar than they are different. And I think they are, you know, they're convex, narrative driven stores of value that are kind of exposure to a story that have decentralization and sovereignty.
00;08;19;20 - 00;08;39;05
Derek
And they both kind of like are packaged slightly differently, but they're both fixed supply assets and have networks around that narrative that make each of these persist. And one of them is almost $1 trillion, and the other is, you know, I don't know, Dogecoin is about 30 billion or 40 billion. I mean, these things, it's not going anywhere, going away anytime soon.
00;08;39;06 - 00;08;58;25
Derek
And and I think if you believe that there is these properties that exist or I mean, tokens are just really difficult to kind of like siphon off, I think it will continue to persist, like it's going to be hard for me to figure out how you say, this is like this, but not like this, other than the rules we already have around fraud and manipulation.
00;08;58;26 - 00;09;04;18
Pri
And maybe just like decentralization. So it's not like a cabal of people who have ownership.
00;09;04;25 - 00;09;09;20
Derek
Yeah, I think that's definitely like the control test. Yeah, yeah.
00;09;09;21 - 00;09;28;16
Aaron
I think people have always criticized Bitcoin in part because it has like a medic asset. I think though it has utility serving as like a, you know, non-sovereign store value. Yeah. Which I think provides a competitive pressure on central banks, which is necessary. I don't know if you can say the same thing about, you know, Hunter Biden's mean coin.
00;09;28;16 - 00;09;32;23
Derek
I think you could say that about this one, though. I mean, you say about those coin.
00;09;32;26 - 00;09;35;00
Chris
The ticker is laptop.
00;09;35;03 - 00;09;35;27
Derek
You guys didn't buy.
00;09;35;27 - 00;09;36;09
Chris
That.
00;09;36;11 - 00;09;40;25
Pri
Did you?
00;09;40;28 - 00;09;58;03
Aaron
Or even if you look at like NFT, which have like a, like a media aspect, except like a meme is really like a media, it's usually running back to like an actual creator of some sort. The ones that tend to persist in value, which I don't know if you could say the same thing.
00;09;58;04 - 00;09;58;21
Derek
I mean.
00;09;58;22 - 00;10;00;00
Aaron
I don't know the boundaries for it.
00;10;00;02 - 00;10;18;22
Derek
The crypto books like cryptocurrencies, where $1 billion in market cap, I mean, those coins 20 times that 30 times. Yeah. And so it's like I actually it's really and I'm not saying every meme coin is like Dogecoin because I actually do agree with what you're saying there. And there are like there is abuse happening around this stuff. And we got to figure out a way to get that out of there.
00;10;18;22 - 00;10;29;06
Derek
And I think that's probably your point. What's that? 13, 1313 times crypto punks, which is, you know, that's an order of magnitude. Can I.
00;10;29;06 - 00;10;30;09
Pri
Buy some.
00;10;30;12 - 00;10;35;10
Derek
Dogecoin, the Doge. Oh we're back.
00;10;35;13 - 00;11;01;26
Aaron
I think for me, the reason I think we're just going to see a lot more transactional value across like all computer systems, whether it's the internet, whether it's blockchains. And so any anything that benefits off of that transaction volume and like a really clean and crisp way will probably do well. So if you think about most of the business models in crypto, they're usually, you know, very small fee on a lot of transaction volume.
00;11;01;26 - 00;11;27;09
Aaron
So if you picture the world of magenta finance, like it's likely going to happen in crypto first, just because it's easier for the agents to program and manipulate assets, trade assets, move assets. It's just a more efficient system. Number one and number two, if you believe that thesis, then that just means that they're going to be the overwhelming volume of traffic probably pretty quickly.
00;11;27;10 - 00;11;38;01
Aaron
So if there's a lot of transactional volume on what happens, right, the the burn kind of kicks in. Right. So that means there's going to be a lot less seed supply coming to the market.
00;11;38;02 - 00;11;47;28
Chris
You guys are just surfacing all the old tropes. Now we're getting into a deflation asset. I was about to say where's the triple point.
00;11;47;29 - 00;11;49;02
Aaron
That's really the triple.
00;11;49;03 - 00;11;53;09
Derek
The author of the triple point is has sold the bottom. From what I remember.
00;11;53;10 - 00;11;55;06
Chris
He left the building. Yeah.
00;11;55;09 - 00;11;57;02
Pri
What is the price of youth today?
00;11;57;09 - 00;11;59;02
Aaron
Thomas 2600.
00;11;59;04 - 00;12;01;06
Pri
Oh, wow.
00;12;01;08 - 00;12;08;04
Chris
If he gets to 3000 to American Warbucks. Back dollars. Holy cow.
00;12;08;07 - 00;12;30;21
Aaron
I've been I really I so I, I just think I didn't I thought a genetic finance was interesting. But I think over the past quarter as we've seen like these like agent swarms begin to like, rear their head. And I think that's going to continue. I just feel more convicted that that's going to happen on crypto like and write first doesn't mean it's only going to happen there, but I think it's going to happen first.
00;12;30;22 - 00;12;38;22
Aaron
I think you're really, really big. So it's huge volumes. It's a picture like ether with a thousand x volume that has it.
00;12;38;24 - 00;12;40;02
Chris
It's possible, like all.
00;12;40;04 - 00;12;46;09
Aaron
That, like block space filled out that people were like, there's no demand for it. Like that could quickly reverse, like really fast.
00;12;46;13 - 00;12;52;03
Pri
I just don't understand how like the agent fervor does not point to blockchains at some point. I mean.
00;12;52;04 - 00;13;17;26
Chris
Because agents can do anything because there's a million payment processing approaches out there, and that we're in an emergent moment in time in which there are no winners picked. I mean, if I was, you know, if I had to, like, put my hand on my heart and swear to God on anything around the bullishness of the ether, I would probably go into more of the stablecoin use case and the tokenization of assets.
00;13;17;26 - 00;13;18;28
Chris
And our.
00;13;18;28 - 00;13;20;10
Pri
RWA guy.
00;13;20;13 - 00;13;41;10
Chris
I mean, I'm worried about our debt process. I'm not RWA, a guy in this I'm going geopolitical macroeconomics guy, right. And saying, who the hell wants are debt anymore? Other than maybe stablecoins. And that's, you know, necessity is maybe a bit more surety.
00;13;41;14 - 00;13;43;20
Pri
It's like Besson has been excited about.
00;13;43;26 - 00;13;49;27
Aaron
I think now you have all those dollars here. The one thing that you can conclusively say about agents is that they're broke.
00;13;50;02 - 00;13;53;02
Chris
They are broke, ass broke, and it costs a lot of damn money.
00;13;53;03 - 00;13;57;10
Aaron
They're really smart and very broke. So, like, combine those two things together.
00;13;57;18 - 00;13;58;14
Chris
By the way.
00;13;58;16 - 00;13;58;19
Aaron
I.
00;13;58;19 - 00;14;02;12
Chris
Feel like college class is under attack right now.
00;14;02;15 - 00;14;07;05
Aaron
But if you were really broke and really bright, they are kind of graduating from college.
00;14;07;07 - 00;14;08;02
Derek
What are your guys.
00;14;08;04 - 00;14;08;28
Aaron
To give him a job.
00;14;08;29 - 00;14;28;08
Derek
And what are your what would you guys say are your most controversial views in a world of over the next couple of years around AI and robotics and human psychology? Like, do you guys have any would be like fun investment ideas or controversial views or like, what is something that you really think you believe that you think maybe others don't right now or.
00;14;28;11 - 00;14;38;16
Aaron
Something that I'm not fully on this view, but I've had this thought like I keep on going back to, which is maybe Skynet is a good thing. Okay. Come on.
00;14;38;19 - 00;14;41;01
Chris
We're going back there. All right.
00;14;41;03 - 00;14;43;16
Derek
Let's hear why why, why?
00;14;43;18 - 00;15;00;28
Aaron
Because I think that these agents are broke. If they're going to take over the world, they're going to probably do it through finance because they need capital to do that. So even if they need a robot, they're going to have to pay somebody. And so I think if they are that right, they're going to just become really good at finance.
00;15;01;00 - 00;15;16;26
Aaron
And that Skynet probably will just be the it'll be like Wall Street. They won't be like some, you know, this thing like what we saw in Terminator 2 or 1, it just will be them trading assets to accumulate capital.
00;15;17;00 - 00;15;19;16
Derek
On behalf of humans or on behalf of. Doesn't matter.
00;15;19;18 - 00;15;20;14
Aaron
Doesn't matter.
00;15;20;16 - 00;15;22;11
Chris
Yeah. Capital serves itself.
00;15;22;13 - 00;15;42;05
Aaron
Yeah. And they'll just be, you know, more efficient form of Wall Street, like a real virtualized version of Wall Street. Maybe that is just like the core of Skynet. And I don't know if that's bad or good. We can debate that. That's why I'm not conclusive on this one. Probably be my most controversial.
00;15;42;11 - 00;15;43;08
Derek
What about you?
00;15;43;09 - 00;16;01;23
Pri
I mean, it's kind of related. I'm still thinking about the questions. It's a good one. I mean, I've heard people say this, but I'm feeling it with my own behavior. Maybe because we were just talking about this as, like, fresh. But I think the commerce stuff is extremely interesting. Like, I've been thinking about what has the internet been good for?
00;16;01;23 - 00;16;23;12
Pri
And it's really two things. One is like information. And I would put like social media and connectivity under that, and also just learning and access and search and whatever. I think that that's obviously a breakout use case of the internet as well as social media. The other is commerce, and I don't know if we've been doing commerce in the most efficient fashion possible.
00;16;23;12 - 00;16;54;03
Pri
And so I've been thinking my own. I've been, as we've talked about this a lot on net society, but I've been using instinct muse, like most personal agents out there, pretty obsessively. And I will say it's like transformed me as a person, like in a way that I think that, you know, my calendar is on point. It's reminding me to do specific doctor's appointments or other appointments.
00;16;54;04 - 00;17;09;25
Pri
Like, I like set it up to, you know, give me make sure I go to the acupuncture, for example, every month and it'll ping me after, you know, when the right time is to book it, and it'll do it for me, for everything from that to like my fresh, direct order. It'll give me a list. And then I kind of talk back into it.
00;17;09;26 - 00;17;28;16
Pri
So I'm actually doing it rather than just like, oh, I should probably order groceries and then go in there. Similarly with like, you know, beauty appointments and whatever appointments I need to do it kind of I've had its surface that up to me. That's all to say. I am spending way more because before it was just something I had to keep track in my brain.
00;17;28;16 - 00;17;50;29
Pri
And this is like kind of surfacing up to me. I would say that I might spend has gone up because I'm like taking care of the things that I need to. And I think that the agents make spending super efficient. And I think there's probably going to be I've been thinking about this a little bit, but with the agents, it's really good at spending things that aren't scarce, like doctor's appointments and maybe like my groceries and things that are more for me.
00;17;50;29 - 00;18;08;22
Pri
But if I want to get a restaurant reservation or, you know, use something, maybe an event like I want to get tickets to a specific event or show or something more scarce goods, those the personal agents aren't particularly good at. So now I'm thinking about like apps that are going to tailor just for restaurant reservations that aren't ready.
00;18;08;22 - 00;18;18;28
Pri
So I think like these apps are going to look a lot different. But yeah, that's all to say. My main point to this is I think consumer spend is just going to go through the roof. I don't think I'm alone in this.
00;18;18;29 - 00;18;19;27
Derek
Like it's a really good take.
00;18;19;28 - 00;18;20;28
Pri
I just think it's going to be.
00;18;20;29 - 00;18;38;19
Derek
Like, I wonder if there's like a analog year with like the the agenda Commerce casino theory, which is like when you're in a casino and like they blackout the windows and they give you chips instead of dollars. It's just like you don't you kind of lose during this, like closed space. You're kind of in this you're trapped audience.
00;18;38;19 - 00;19;04;22
Derek
You've got like this unit of account that distracts, like, you know, how much you're spending. And so your psychology and your behavior kind of changes right around like money. And I think what I'm hearing you say is when you become kind of like a, you know, you close off all avenues for even like service area. But thinking about spending money into those chat box, and, you know, the concept of money is so far away and you're just looking to solve this job, which is like convenience around scheduling.
00;19;04;28 - 00;19;13;19
Derek
You're willing to kind of like, just like spend more and like, participate more in that economy that feels like it's, you know, like closed off from the rest.
00;19;13;19 - 00;19;30;10
Pri
Of you that like my more together, like I'm actually going to the workout classes that it looks for me. I'm actually doing the appointments on time usually like, oh man, my eyebrows are messed. Now, I should probably do that. And it could be like two months have passed by. I have like something that's booking it for me. Looking at my calendar and again is my problem.
00;19;30;12 - 00;19;35;16
Pri
Like I mean for I think probably I would imagine moms but women in general there's like a lot of appointments.
00;19;35;16 - 00;19;54;20
Derek
So it's like maybe this is yeah, to say this differently, there's so much friction to engaging in the world day to day that like, maybe that has always been a curb against consumer spending to some degree. And now that you're streamlining everything via natural language in your cell phone, it's like consumer spend is about to skyrocket.
00;19;54;26 - 00;19;55;28
Pri
So I think so.
00;19;56;00 - 00;19;56;09
Chris
Okay.
00;19;56;10 - 00;19;59;07
Aaron
So let's. I mean, savings rates going way down.
00;19;59;08 - 00;20;19;17
Chris
Well they kind of want the savings rate to go down. There's too much money sitting on the sidelines. But let's let's hop back in the hot tub time machine for a second here and look at two things that like previous triggering with this, you know, revelation, which I actually think is an amazing take. It's it's a it's maybe something to anchor this episode on.
00;20;19;19 - 00;20;29;05
Chris
One is what do we think the I don't know, universal spend on virtual goods was in the year of our Lord 1999, the category to even exist.
00;20;29;06 - 00;20;30;24
Aaron
Yeah, right.
00;20;30;25 - 00;20;37;28
Chris
But does anyone really talk about the virtual goods economy or is it just, you know, it just kind of popped up and now it's massive and. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00;20;38;01 - 00;20;40;01
Pri
In part of our life. Yeah, yeah.
00;20;40;03 - 00;20;59;27
Chris
And then the other thing, right is, you know, when we were slugging it out in the NFT gen days, right. Like pricing things in. Right. Like eath was like just a whole different class of money. It had a whole other set of properties around it, like you didn't. Your purchasing preferences were very different than your purchasing preferences.
00;20;59;28 - 00;21;00;25
Derek
Feel seen.
00;21;00;29 - 00;21;02;00
Aaron
Yeah, right.
00;21;02;00 - 00;21;27;03
Chris
There we go. And so like this I feel like you're pointing out this emergent form of consumer behavior in which a maybe like there's a different, a different view of what spending is or like you just. Right. You're not treating it as the same level of spend. And some of that I think is the frictionless in this. Some of it maybe is at its operating in this virtual sphere.
00;21;27;03 - 00;21;32;25
Chris
But the twist on this now, right, like everything you're talking about is very anchored in your life. Yeah, right.
00;21;32;26 - 00;21;33;17
Pri
It's a custom.
00;21;33;18 - 00;22;06;18
Chris
Right. And so like, you've kind of like disintermediation, the whole process of doing it like the transaction rails and yada yada yada right out into this like agent space, but then you're getting all these benefits or, you know, and so yeah, that is kind of interesting what what happens here. You know, it's also I think, you know, we got to keep an eye on you and find out when, when agent fatigue kicks in or when you cleared enough off your list that you don't feel this pressing need or whatever.
00;22;06;20 - 00;22;07;21
Aaron
Yesterday, because you were saying.
00;22;07;21 - 00;22;24;00
Pri
That I've been burnt out by I mean, I have like 20 to 30 agents I'm talking to daily, you know, on instinct. I mean, that that said, I think the onboarding takes time, like you're going to have fatigue to make sure that it learns you in programs. I think now instinct is just kind of like, oh, you should get your son.
00;22;24;02 - 00;22;28;11
Pri
It's been three weeks. You want me to book it for you? Let me look at your calendar. I'm like, great. But like.
00;22;28;13 - 00;22;33;04
Chris
This is literally a line from hyper real hospitality. By the way, if you remember when.
00;22;33;06 - 00;22;34;00
Aaron
That's Chris's book.
00;22;34;01 - 00;22;35;23
Pri
Yeah. Your book is.
00;22;35;23 - 00;22;39;12
Chris
Like clone. Ben suggests to Amanda it's time to get her nails done.
00;22;39;13 - 00;22;40;04
Pri
Yeah.
00;22;40;08 - 00;22;41;05
Derek
I think.
00;22;41;07 - 00;22;42;13
Chris
I just living my book.
00;22;42;16 - 00;22;42;22
Aaron
This is.
00;22;42;27 - 00;22;45;11
Derek
I think, what I'm hearing to answer your question about when.
00;22;45;11 - 00;22;47;05
Aaron
You get into existence, Chris.
00;22;47;07 - 00;22;50;13
Chris
Precision freeze lifestyle, this is like out of control.
00;22;50;14 - 00;22;54;12
Aaron
I mean, that's a hot tick I have, which is instinct is the next clubhouse.
00;22;54;14 - 00;22;55;14
Derek
Let's unpack that.
00;22;55;16 - 00;22;58;14
Chris
You're always such a hater. Don't you call it Solana while you're.
00;22;58;14 - 00;22;59;22
Pri
At it.
00;22;59;25 - 00;23;03;05
Derek
I have strong opinions on instinct, but I'm curious to hear yours.
00;23;03;06 - 00;23;24;08
Aaron
It just like I don't, I use it, it feels nice. It just feels like it's going to get fast. Copied by a lot of the like major, major harnesses and it will get bundled into something else. So and just the fervor around it with the price action gives me like frothy ish type vibes. It just feels disconnected a bit.
00;23;24;09 - 00;23;27;28
Pri
I feel the same way. I mean, the $10 billion valuation, you know?
00;23;28;04 - 00;23;30;09
Chris
Was that a real round? Did it get done?
00;23;30;11 - 00;23;31;02
Aaron
I think it's.
00;23;31;04 - 00;23;49;19
Pri
I think it's purportedly trying to get done. I think it's I like the user interface. I think they're shipping quickly. It definitely feels like BC pump personal agent type of project. That said, I am like a door, like I use it multiple times a day. Probably the one thing I'm talking to most on my eye.
00;23;49;25 - 00;23;58;25
Derek
And you have. So can I ask you a question like you have no qualms with putting that level of PII into I definitely database.
00;23;58;25 - 00;24;00;18
Pri
I definitely do, but I'm putting things.
00;24;00;20 - 00;24;01;16
Derek
Like, I would never do.
00;24;01;16 - 00;24;02;29
Aaron
It because of that.
00;24;03;00 - 00;24;31;18
Derek
Yeah, the way, the way, the way, the way. Well, maybe I'm wrong, but like the way instinct was architected, you're making some massive trust assumptions around this thing like people have. People can delete their information because they because of the way the product is built in the level of service that people are accustomed to around the consumer agent space, the way they're they're essentially like, you know, creating mirror copies of all of your information constantly so they can index it faster and be able to create better, faster payloads for you.
00;24;31;19 - 00;24;40;12
Derek
So like an example will be you see this happening all the time with instinct in particular, but somebody will delete an account and then an email will still fire off like 24 hours.
00;24;40;12 - 00;24;40;20
Aaron
Later.
00;24;40;21 - 00;25;02;21
Derek
Or like someone they'll report like a bank login that tries to happen. And it's like the way that system is architected is so finicky. I guess I have a larger thesis around the consumer agent space, which is it's clear to me that there will be a demand for this, like you are evidence of that. The humans are ready for the convenience that a consumer agent via natural language will bring.
00;25;02;22 - 00;25;30;01
Derek
I don't think as an industry, we are ready for the security model to support the level of, let's call it like the level of frictionless experience that you are desiring. I agree, and I think maybe a better way of saying that is, you know, if you look at some of kind of when I, when I look at the way instinct as being architected and it's like people are willingly putting their Social Security numbers, their banking credentials, their credit cards, like all of their information into this thing.
00;25;30;01 - 00;25;51;07
Derek
And now we're entering a paradigm where they're shipping products that allow my agent to speak to your agent. And we know that they're copying this information in places that I wouldn't call it the most secure. This is like, these are databases that they're running and managing the surface area for something to go wrong is going to make some of these previous data leaks look like spring break.
00;25;51;09 - 00;26;11;29
Derek
Like I just it's too much information in built inside of like a rickety structure for me to feel confident, like this is where the world is going. I really think that the security models to support consumer agents, we're just not there yet, and it's going to take a really big incident for people to kind of like, remember that these are these are just like, this is a venture backed company holding all this information.
00;26;12;06 - 00;26;19;07
Aaron
And maybe they could figure them out. I think that's where some of the incumbents probably have an advantage. They just have better infrastructure.
00;26;19;09 - 00;26;24;23
Derek
You never hear about banks getting hacked or leaking data. It's because they've spent. Four years or.
00;26;24;24 - 00;26;25;08
Aaron
You.
00;26;25;11 - 00;26;31;02
Pri
Know, I know people who are plugging their stuff into because they're like, it's like a public company with like high security protocols.
00;26;31;03 - 00;26;48;28
Derek
Totally. I think there's a different there's like there are degrees. I think ultimately the best degree is like, maybe you keep the maybe you keep the memory and the harness silent from the credentials, silent from the models. And like, maybe some of the stuff is local to you and only you can. This is where I think Apple actually has a massive advantage with the Secure Enclave.
00;26;49;04 - 00;26;56;13
Aaron
So that's yeah, I mean like the same thing. I mean, if the hook is really iMessage. Exactly. And there and really like.
00;26;56;16 - 00;27;04;12
Derek
They should be doing this this the security model that I think people want to me actually makes the most sense when you own the hardware completely. That that.
00;27;04;14 - 00;27;06;22
Aaron
Is not going to come out for Samsung phone.
00;27;06;24 - 00;27;18;05
Derek
You would think it would. And this is where I look at instincts and I'm like, yes, we get it. Like everybody wants to use this. Everybody is ready for consumer agents. But then I look at the product and I'm like, this is not the right thing.
00;27;18;06 - 00;27;22;21
Pri
I agree, I don't think it's going. I mean, if you're like in ten years from now, is instinct that to be something.
00;27;22;22 - 00;27;38;14
Aaron
That and that's really going back to clubhouse. This would be the argument again, maybe this team is just so cracked that they're going to come up with different ways. And I don't want to disparage that. And, you know, clubhouse became commoditized really quickly. Right X even Eli. Yeah. Like Aaron.
00;27;38;17 - 00;27;43;16
Chris
Thomas clubhouse was a commodity to begin with. It was a free conference bridge. Let's be real.
00;27;43;18 - 00;27;51;22
Aaron
Completely. But like, you know, it had like a hook that people like, they like being put into like real time rooms.
00;27;51;24 - 00;27;54;11
Pri
It still think it's cool. The content.
00;27;54;13 - 00;27;59;28
Derek
The content is, I remember. Do you remember? Those spaces weren't so hard during Covid. I was on it every night.
00;27;59;29 - 00;28;00;08
Pri
I was.
00;28;00;08 - 00;28;00;25
Chris
On every night.
00;28;00;26 - 00;28;05;17
Derek
Yeah, yeah. It was so awesome. We had some like, didn't we do some flamingo stuff in there too?
00;28;05;18 - 00;28;06;24
Pri
Yeah, yeah.
00;28;06;26 - 00;28;15;04
Aaron
But I don't know, it just feels like the again could be wrong. Don't know what they have planned, but it just feels like the motif around it feels.
00;28;15;06 - 00;28;27;11
Derek
Really believes that for me to get the payload that is talking about which I also acknowledge is really interesting to me with the security that I desire. You really need to own the hardware. Like I feel like that to me is the answer.
00;28;27;12 - 00;28;33;19
Pri
That's what I think people are are getting at. But I don't think normies are going to be like, let me locally host my.
00;28;33;24 - 00;28;34;21
Derek
Well, this is where, like.
00;28;34;27 - 00;28;36;26
Aaron
Your grandma's not locally hosted.
00;28;36;28 - 00;28;37;10
Pri
My friends.
00;28;37;10 - 00;28;37;28
Aaron
Won't see a.
00;28;37;28 - 00;28;49;01
Derek
Lie, but I think like this is where they say passkeys and like biometrics and the secure enclave where all this stuff is siloed in a way where you don't actually need to know, but it's more secure than the models are.
00;28;49;01 - 00;28;50;06
Pri
Just like.
00;28;50;08 - 00;28;52;27
Derek
Yeah, or just like a secure enclave on your mobile phone, right?
00;28;52;28 - 00;28;57;19
Aaron
I think the end the technology is ek proofs. That is actually.
00;28;57;20 - 00;28;59;04
Pri
Actually kind of is low key.
00;28;59;07 - 00;29;15;20
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I do think that that's going to be the final form factor. Every agent will have a computer, a VM, every agent will have its own memory, every age will have its own wallet, crypto wallet. And it'll be able to securely manage its own passwords. Or if it's operating on your behalf.
00;29;15;21 - 00;29;16;14
Derek
Trade mean.
00;29;16;16 - 00;29;30;08
Aaron
You'll be able to I don't you know, it's funny. So this is what I also think people are not thinking about about agents, which is I think they're going to be a lot more rational than humans, which means that they probably will not trade. I mean, they're not going to click.
00;29;30;08 - 00;29;33;20
Derek
Okay. So so I'll take the counter to that, which is they're.
00;29;33;20 - 00;29;55;09
Aaron
Not going to click on ads. They're going to be a little bit more rational. And I think that that means businesses with much rather deal with a rational customer because they can interact, they can predict their behavior. Or clearly, I don't think we can do that now. I think there's going to be edge cases like what the the lab show or agents do weird stuff.
00;29;55;14 - 00;29;59;15
Aaron
But I think on balance there are going to be much better end users.
00;29;59;15 - 00;30;25;06
Derek
And I'll take the counter to that, which is all assets, our attention assets. Now some of that attention is generated because like you're you just hit revenue milestone. Some of that is like you're profitable this quarter. Some of that is because it's a picture of a cat that's going to learn. And I would say the thing that an agent is really able to do is ignore the why behind the attention and notice the actual technical or fundamental things that are actually happening on.
00;30;25;08 - 00;30;27;26
Aaron
The Asian economy, though, is the attention economy.
00;30;27;29 - 00;30;28;11
Derek
I think.
00;30;28;12 - 00;30;36;09
Aaron
They don't have. Yeah. Like I know people have this and they struggle with it, but they don't have any attention deficit related.
00;30;36;10 - 00;30;41;06
Derek
But I think they're good at is being able to understand the quantification of that attention.
00;30;41;08 - 00;31;06;22
Aaron
So yeah, like the properties then the like the value investor analysis of it. Right. Like they're really talking about like the surface shape of what it can quickly interact with. Favors mean points more so than in favorite. But if everything is in a right like all stocks or RWA is, they're not going to get duped the same way.
00;31;06;22 - 00;31;29;25
Aaron
I think many folks are duped into the dopamine fuel power of an attention asset. So there may be a strategy there, but it's really like profiting off of the like, stupidity, for lack of a better way to describe it, of humans as opposed to a more rational approach, which would probably be avoid that category in its entirety. Yeah, but you're dealing in binaries again, saying this or that, right?
00;31;29;25 - 00;31;39;21
Aaron
When we've seen with the stock trade this year, they frequently merge into each other and become one and the same thing. They could be. But I don't know, I, I think.
00;31;39;24 - 00;31;42;28
Derek
This will be interesting to follow as time goes on. Yeah, it'll.
00;31;43;00 - 00;32;07;21
Aaron
Be interesting. I guess the more meta point I think is like maybe the economy isn't an attention economy as much. Maybe it's a much more rational economy. And that's one of its advantages. Right? So people want predictability, rationality in a market. And if you have like a market with things that are closer to being rational agents, you can do a lot more and it can move a lot faster.
00;32;07;24 - 00;32;26;27
Aaron
I would say it's more of a flow economy than anything else, right? Like, I'd get off like attention. I'd get off value and like, at least while it's minuscule and still intonation and trying to figure out how to do what it can do. Right. Like, it's it's like water. It's going to go in the direction of the police resistance.
00;32;26;28 - 00;32;46;03
Aaron
Yeah. You know, at some point down the line. Right. Will that change? Of course. But I think right now it's any which way. But you know loose like how can it get there. What can it get to. Because you have this demand. And I think that's actually maybe part of why instinct has gone so hard is that it's opened itself up.
00;32;46;05 - 00;32;59;11
Aaron
Right. It's gotten beyond this. X4 02I don't know what the hell to do with this, right? To like, get your ass to the potties. And I rescheduled your cable. I took 40 bucks off your cable bill.
00;32;59;13 - 00;33;00;22
Pri
Yeah, that's what we mean.
00;33;00;25 - 00;33;01;15
Derek
It's pretty awesome.
00;33;01;16 - 00;33;02;18
Pri
Chris is instinctively.
00;33;02;18 - 00;33;03;14
Aaron
So harsh.
00;33;03;17 - 00;33;10;18
Pri
I will say, I guess I'm spending much, but I'm also saving quite a bit. Like I'm actually budgeting and doing these things that I was, like, not interested in.
00;33;10;24 - 00;33;12;00
Aaron
You said you were spending more.
00;33;12;00 - 00;33;15;01
Pri
So I was spending more. But at the same time, I did get my spectrum down.
00;33;15;02 - 00;33;23;08
Derek
Well, that's pretty cool. I was going to say the top is in when pre hits chapter seven bankruptcy. But it sounds it sounds like these expansion.
00;33;23;10 - 00;33;43;24
Pri
It's all showing me too much, but it's just more doing the things that I probably should be doing. But I don't really think about it until I absolutely the latest possible moment. But I have talked to people who are probably more type A, and they do that for organically. So part of me is thinking this is more helping type B people become more type A, which is what I would say.
00;33;43;25 - 00;33;47;23
Aaron
So in other words, becoming more rational.
00;33;47;25 - 00;33;49;01
Pri
Yeah. Good point.
00;33;49;02 - 00;34;17;12
Derek
Chris, do you have a a controversial view on some sort of maybe consumer thing that people may be under under thinking about that you feel pretty confident will be true over the next couple of years as a result of AI or robotics or some of these other trends. Like anything that you're thinking of that you feel like any meat on the bone here that we can digest on ideas you've got coming together that you think are going to be really big ideas that people maybe don't quite understand or see.
00;34;17;17 - 00;34;39;21
Aaron
Okay, if you if you want me to go here, I think we're going to have a pullback on socialization like peak run club. I think we're probably a peak run club right now. Same way. Like look at whiskey and scotch right? I don't know if you remember like this for Covid like all those articles going around like oh my god.
00;34;39;23 - 00;35;02;18
Aaron
You know there's all these new distilleries coming online, but they won't be able to get anything in the market for 20 years because of what it takes. And we're going to be so short on the breaking stuff. Right. Well what happened? Behavior changed. Yeah. And one thing I do think around this, you know, if you're so productive, if you're getting if you're in these flow states and these flow states are healthy for you and your own personal life, right?
00;35;02;20 - 00;35;10;15
Aaron
Like everything's trade off. So that means you're shutting out other things. You're not shooting the shit. You're not yapping. You're not like, what is.
00;35;10;17 - 00;35;17;16
Derek
Is second and third or consequences that you're describing that maybe completely change the way flows move or flows work?
00;35;17;17 - 00;35;36;15
Aaron
Yes. And so I think we're going to see that in I mean, what is like getting super, super into like being tone being buff. Right. Like that whole like extension of Pilates is like, oh, in the age of GLP, right. Like, you know, now now having like guns I was. Going to say, Roman.
00;35;36;21 - 00;35;37;21
Derek
You look great these days.
00;35;37;22 - 00;36;07;29
Aaron
Thank you. As a middle aged woman, I do look great, right? But like, that's that's the current status symbol. And. Right. So like, as you get more personal satisfaction out of, like focusing into something you do kind of retreat and cut off, I actually think that will happen and will catch people by surprise a little bit will get all sorts of, you know, shock articles of like, oh, this person, you know, prefers their AI dog to like an actual dog or, you know, like all these sort of weird stories.
00;36;07;29 - 00;36;43;08
Aaron
But then out of that, I think we will see a new form of like network socialization that like, this is stuff like I get into in my book. I've read hospitality, which I'll release one day. Right? But you know that, like you'll start seeing like merging of skills, merging of consciousness, merging of emotion, like this, sort of more like nebulous hive mind like activity in which I think, you know, it will lead to new forms of interaction, but just in ways that I don't think we can really, like, get a good handle on the shape of right now.
00;36;43;08 - 00;36;56;25
Derek
So do you have a sense? Do you have a sense of what that could look like or like maybe something that like maybe some social interaction or some social product that you feel like could, could possibly encapsulate this idea that you're describing?
00;36;56;27 - 00;37;19;21
Aaron
Yeah. I think you'll you'll start getting into hyper realistic, immersive group chats in which, like your bathe in media, you know that, like you're kind of I don't know, you're melding, you're melding this stew that you live in, right? Or like, you know, you walk through the world right now and everything's just thrown at you, right? And you're just bathed in it.
00;37;19;22 - 00;37;54;28
Aaron
Right? But what if you could bring that into, like, a virtual space that was more controlled, that had more, like direction around it while you were also talking to people and you're wielding things and like, you know, I think part of a transition from, like, physical to digital is like things become more malleable. And, you know, especially as you start getting into extensions of yourself via these agents, like your personality, you know, may start to drift and may or you may like off, you know, off source, outsource, you know, certain aspects of that.
00;37;54;28 - 00;38;16;03
Aaron
And I think that's going to lead to just radically different, you know, behaviors, right. Like, you know, the idea of like doom scrolling. We'll go out the window and you might be in this like semi persistent immersive environment with other people. You know that not only are you shooting the shit, but you're getting things done at the same time.
00;38;16;05 - 00;38;16;16
Derek
I like.
00;38;16;16 - 00;38;17;21
Aaron
That a lot.
00;38;17;23 - 00;38;19;27
Derek
I like that, I think that's a great one.
00;38;19;29 - 00;38;32;16
Pri
And then how do so but then do you feel like that that because you're saying like people will become more inward and like less socialized, do you think that that actually takes the place of like, would that fill the human desire to be social? You think.
00;38;32;18 - 00;38;47;13
Aaron
I'm saying that this is going to happen in phases, and that phase one, I think is going to be a turn inward, towards a productive self, towards the I need to get, you know, I can unlock all these other things and it's power trip, right?
00;38;47;14 - 00;38;48;18
Pri
It's on, on right now.
00;38;48;19 - 00;39;07;08
Aaron
Yeah. Like your your main line and getting shit done I think. And you're the tip of the spear here is more and more people do that right. There is going to be a pullback. You know and I see this I don't know I'd say it like you know like discord or you know like group chats I mean like I feel like activity is down.
00;39;07;10 - 00;39;29;10
Aaron
Yeah. And so I think that happens. But then yeah no people are talking to the bots. And then I think new forms emerge once we can start, you know, actually integrating all this stuff, once those forms emerge. Right. Like will become more social again but will become social again along with this productivity because we're not going to be willing to give that up as well.
00;39;29;10 - 00;39;29;29
Pri
I think you're right.
00;39;30;00 - 00;39;53;08
Aaron
Yeah. So to me, the huge winner ends up becoming like, who can create these? You know, sort of like networked like group chat digital spaces in which like, you know, the the productivity aspect of Adams as well is brought to bear like who can who can bring like a total experience, you know. And I think that takes.
00;39;53;08 - 00;40;18;19
Pri
Some time. That's good. Yeah. That's it ought to have been noticing about like just my own use when you're talking about it being inward. I mean, I feel like part of what I do every day is just like, sit by myself and like. And just on a, you know, across these different chats all day long and getting different things done at like a breakneck speed, which is great, but you're obviously not like talking to other people or engaging a whole lot.
00;40;18;21 - 00;40;41;24
Pri
I feel like a lot of people have experienced that. But I will say on the other side with my personal agents that I like discovering more, like doing more. So when it comes to like seeing a play or a Broadway show or, you know, seeing a speaker at 92nd one. I mean, you see like some this like Richard Hawkins is like geneticist, like I'm finding out things and this again maybe goes to my consumer spend comment.
00;40;41;24 - 00;41;00;29
Pri
But there is like a level of like counter socialism that's not social socializing. That's happening as well, because people are able to have the time to engage and like set their bots up to socialize more. That's not exactly what you're saying at all, but any means. But I.
00;41;01;01 - 00;41;03;10
Derek
Like you. You believe in an Earl future?
00;41;03;15 - 00;41;05;18
Pri
Definitely. For sure.
00;41;05;20 - 00;41;07;14
Derek
As a kind of way to a lot of what's happening.
00;41;07;15 - 00;41;29;28
Pri
At least maybe the short term. I actually think Chris is right. There's going to be some hybrid blend where it's going to be like digital, but you still you've already ramped up on the productivity side. So you kind of incorporate that your digital social life, like I do agree with what he's saying. But I think like there. I'm definitely pretty bullish on I'll, I also think like if you have agents at home doing work, like why wouldn't you.
00;41;30;00 - 00;41;30;28
Aaron
Go shoot the shit?
00;41;30;29 - 00;41;31;23
Pri
Yeah.
00;41;31;25 - 00;41;32;08
Aaron
Wouldn't you?
00;41;32;10 - 00;41;34;11
Derek
I mean, probably be working two days.
00;41;34;11 - 00;41;34;23
Aaron
A week.
00;41;35;00 - 00;41;36;06
Derek
Most Americans. Well.
00;41;36;07 - 00;41;37;13
Pri
I don't know if I buy that.
00;41;37;14 - 00;41;38;12
Derek
Definitely.
00;41;38;13 - 00;41;38;29
Pri
Really?
00;41;39;00 - 00;41;43;14
Aaron
Yeah. There's no way the American public is going to suffer through high unemployment.
00;41;43;15 - 00;41;48;04
Derek
It depends that you buy Zcash at the lows or did you not? That's the.
00;41;48;07 - 00;42;05;05
Aaron
Look if if the if the AI Dumas are right I don't think that they are let's say that they are and that there's going to be elevated unemployment rates. You have two choices. You can start to put together all these jobs programs and make busy work where you can just make it the norm to work less.
00;42;05;06 - 00;42;06;09
Pri
Yeah.
00;42;06;12 - 00;42;22;24
Aaron
Just think about it. So just think about how popular that would be for a political candidate. Yeah. Hey, like I'm advocating that you work two days a week. Vote for me. It's no different than the high school, you know, like, you know, like class president election. We've learned that over the past year. You just have to give stuff away.
00;42;23;02 - 00;42;44;18
Aaron
So you're actually setting up the ultimate political showdown, which is boomers versus millennials with this two day of work. But do you think any boomer on earth is going to who had to work five days a week, sometimes six? Do you think they would ever, ever vote for candidate who would let people work less and get the same as what they like?
00;42;44;20 - 00;43;04;18
Aaron
Well, I mean, honestly, if you said, hey, everybody work two days a week and then we're just going to need to build up 5000 more data centers. Everybody be like, okay, like it's a complete solution. Like you can do whatever you want after that. As long as people work and start with three days a week, I don't know.
00;43;04;20 - 00;43;05;02
Pri
Do you guys.
00;43;05;02 - 00;43;07;29
Aaron
Week for days a week? You know, it'd be.
00;43;08;01 - 00;43;09;14
Pri
For days a week. I feel like.
00;43;09;21 - 00;43;20;01
Aaron
I mean, we did in the past that people used to work longer. And then the progressives back in Teddy Roosevelt era began to talk about this. And how came, you know, all these types of roles.
00;43;20;01 - 00;43;29;02
Derek
I had to look had to look this up after Chris brought it up. But millennials and Gen Z combined have now overtaken baby boomers as the largest voting cohort in the US.
00;43;29;05 - 00;43;30;00
Aaron
Really?
00;43;30;03 - 00;43;35;17
Derek
Yeah, almost 50% of the electorate compared to boomers at 33%.
00;43;35;18 - 00;43;37;11
Aaron
Yes. But what's the participation rate?
00;43;37;13 - 00;43;39;28
Derek
That's probably true. That's probably true.
00;43;39;29 - 00;43;42;03
Pri
All these old heads up, nothing to do but like.
00;43;42;04 - 00;43;45;02
Aaron
But now, if you're only working three days a week, you go to.
00;43;45;02 - 00;43;46;22
Derek
Get more time with us. Yeah.
00;43;46;23 - 00;43;47;17
Aaron
There you go.
00;43;47;19 - 00;43;50;11
Pri
We all, like, participate in, attend the school board meetings.
00;43;50;12 - 00;43;51;14
Aaron
But. Yeah, but that's important.
00;43;51;18 - 00;44;06;18
Pri
Like civic duty does. So I'm not going to lie, I actually could see civic duty going up because you have your agent telling you, like, hey, there's these meetings, what they're discussing, like, right now, I just don't even know what the hell is happening on the local level. But if I had someone to surface that up, maybe I would go to a meeting.
00;44;06;21 - 00;44;07;28
Derek
Like Eurasian.
00;44;08;00 - 00;44;08;21
Aaron
Yeah, yeah, but.
00;44;08;28 - 00;44;10;28
Derek
You didn't go to the meeting for you?
00;44;11;00 - 00;44;12;11
Pri
Yeah. I guess you're.
00;44;12;13 - 00;44;17;07
Derek
You're you're not going anywhere, dude. You're sitting in a chair for 24 hours a day and you ain't leaving.
00;44;17;09 - 00;44;19;11
Pri
You might want to be an active participant in that.
00;44;19;12 - 00;44;20;08
Aaron
Some avatar.
00;44;20;11 - 00;44;25;02
Derek
Yeah. Active participant. Grab a bottle of water and drink it every couple of hours. Make sure you.
00;44;25;04 - 00;44;27;02
Aaron
Can debate, you know.
00;44;27;04 - 00;44;28;12
Pri
Fair enough.
00;44;28;14 - 00;44;29;03
Aaron
Sure.
00;44;29;06 - 00;44;31;22
Derek
You're all on double duty.
00;44;31;25 - 00;44;40;26
Pri
Fair enough. I'll send her out. What the hell am I going to do at home as well? Fuck around at the school board meeting.
00;44;40;28 - 00;45;04;05
Derek
You know what's interesting, though, is, like, I think in light of Chris passionate, like, second and third order consequences that we don't know. Like, does a school board meeting even exist, or does the even idea of, like, school map the same way? Right? Like if are we still sending our kids out into a schoolyard where, like, you know, one teacher is teaching 30 students and like, they're supposed to be experts in nine different categories.
00;45;04;06 - 00;45;19;01
Derek
And, I don't know, something that model even doesn't even quite map to where I think we're going. And so this idea of like going to a school board meeting is probably going to be laid by the wayside as a result of some of the shifts in education, probably..
00;45;19;05 - 00;45;37;23
Aaron
I think there'll be shifts in education. I think that there's probably still school boards. I don't know if you caught this, but, you know, the Harvard College, the undergrad of Harvard, they've flip flopped on their policy related to AI, and they're now embracing it, which I thought was interesting just because a lot of stuff is like that of the elite Ivy League colleges.
00;45;37;25 - 00;45;59;17
Aaron
And I listened to a podcast with the the president, and his position was kind of three fold, he said, like when Harvard started back in late 1600s, I think it was, you know, you just needed access to information like they had them. They were endowed with a library. That's why people went to Harvard to then the printing press did its thing.
00;45;59;18 - 00;46;19;06
Aaron
Now it was less scarce. And Harvard became like an institute of experts, like how to train you for expertise. Now that expertise is getting cheaper. He he thinks, and I imagine that there's other folks there that also think this, that they really want to be like a community of learning, like learning together. So I do think schools will probably exist.
00;46;19;11 - 00;46;27;05
Aaron
It's hard to learn things. And then I think people need to figure out, like the calculator questions that they figured out with math just.
00;46;27;07 - 00;46;36;26
Derek
I think the community learning thing will never go away. I think the cost structure to support the way colleges in education was built doesn't feel like the right thing.
00;46;37;02 - 00;46;54;17
Aaron
Yeah, I mean, that's those are hard, hard problems. But, you know, I think they're thinking more in the pedagogy. Like how do we get, you know, and he noted as part of it that MOOCs were a great idea if it didn't work, because it's really hard to learn, you know, it's hard to have the discipline to sit there and, you know, do that every single day.
00;46;54;17 - 00;46;58;24
Aaron
I think it's why people go to gyms to right? They want their class.
00;46;59;01 - 00;47;01;02
Pri
To break up the day.
00;47;01;05 - 00;47;04;25
Aaron
Yeah, part of that too. So you know, I think.
00;47;04;27 - 00;47;05;20
Derek
Well, so.
00;47;05;26 - 00;47;11;10
Aaron
I do think education will change pretty dramatically. I hope it probably won't move that quickly unfortunately.
00;47;11;10 - 00;47;13;19
Derek
But I think that's I think that's true.
00;47;13;21 - 00;47;15;10
Pri
I mean, Alpha School is kind of an interesting.
00;47;15;10 - 00;47;31;11
Derek
I was going to say, I think Alpha School is actually getting a little closer to the thing I'm describing, which is you still have a community, you have experience learning, you're fitting in maybe the class time into kind of a 2 to 3 hour trunk a day instead of eight hours. It's smaller classes and so it's more intimate learning styles.
00;47;31;11 - 00;47;50;05
Derek
They're using, you know, advanced tools to help with the education process. There's they have like it's just it just feels like structurally that looks more like where we're going. And this idea of sitting in a classroom in the second grade, like, you know, for eight hours and being babysat, I just I really.
00;47;50;08 - 00;47;55;08
Pri
Concept was created over the Industrial revolution to accommodate. Yes.
00;47;55;10 - 00;48;01;08
Derek
I mean, in some ways it was largely babysitting and like, well, learn while you don't, you know. Yeah, yeah.
00;48;01;10 - 00;48;03;27
Pri
But it's not necessarily the most optimal way to learn.
00;48;03;29 - 00;48;16;17
Derek
Right. And I think that's maybe the thing that I'm curious about is like, how does the education system break down and then get rebuilt to support where technology is best serving these kids?
00;48;16;19 - 00;48;20;11
Pri
I think AI is like the greatest learning tool in the world to ever be.
00;48;20;19 - 00;48;34;07
Aaron
But people need to be taught how to make it a learning tool. It's not intuitive for everybody, you know, if you're not viewing it as a learning tool, you're just viewing it as like a replacement for search. You're not thinking of it as like a tutor or somebody that can help you.
00;48;34;09 - 00;48;48;06
Pri
Yeah, there's some good apps that because you don't want to also give up your cognitive like thinking skills, like there is like a line here, but there are like good education AI tools that like force you to think and test you. So it's like just getting the right tools in their hands.
00;48;48;07 - 00;49;07;01
Aaron
I think it's going to be a lot of experimentation. I think the worry is we we've had the pleasure of like developing like our, like our reasoning and reading comprehension and like all these other tools and like critical, critical thought is something we've been taught, but increasingly.
00;49;07;02 - 00;49;17;26
Derek
Those generations aren't. I think we had a conversation maybe like 3 or 4 months ago. I think Covid really was like the first time I ended up getting very worried about his problem. And it's now just accelerated.
00;49;17;27 - 00;49;22;03
Aaron
Yeah. Grade school like, yeah.
00;49;22;06 - 00;49;22;15
Pri
The other.
00;49;22;15 - 00;49;22;22
Aaron
Part.
00;49;22;22 - 00;49;34;17
Chris
Of this, right, is your version of money is a dominant form of language in our society. And right, we can just look at like stupid shit like Ed Sheeran popping up all over the place this week. Right.
00;49;34;22 - 00;49;36;16
Aaron
You're worried.
00;49;36;18 - 00;49;37;20
Chris
Sorry, Sharon.
00;49;37;23 - 00;49;38;13
Aaron
Sharon.
00;49;38;16 - 00;49;40;05
Derek
Boomer.
00;49;40;08 - 00;49;47;02
Aaron
It was like some sort of like dude. Extreme dude. Right? One hell of a listener. That garbage.
00;49;47;04 - 00;49;48;10
Derek
Oh, I like it.
00;49;48;17 - 00;49;50;21
Aaron
Good. I like your anyway.
00;49;50;23 - 00;49;51;24
Derek
What's the drama with him?
00;49;51;24 - 00;49;56;17
Aaron
What's going on? He wants to pull out your heart strings. Chris wants to make you feel something. Right.
00;49;56;20 - 00;49;57;25
Derek
But what.
00;49;57;27 - 00;50;08;14
Chris
If you've been living under a rock? One of his opening acts. Macklemore. Right? You know, and show maybe a meadowlands or something. Said Free Palestine, right? Very.
00;50;08;16 - 00;50;09;09
Aaron
Who can't say.
00;50;09;09 - 00;50;12;02
Chris
That word? Robert Kraft. Right. Who? They're.
00;50;12;02 - 00;50;38;25
Aaron
Supposed to claim that stadium like a month from now? Yeah. Basically issued a, you know, an ultimatum. Macklemore gets thrown off the tour, right? Big bash backlash around this. The point I'm making because I don't really need to wait and wait into all that, right? Your concern about critical thinking, right. Everyone looks at this romantic. Oh my God, the algorithms of doom scrolling this, that and the other is destroying people's critical thinking facilities.
00;50;38;25 - 00;51;00;08
Aaron
But money is just as bad. And money is a form of speech in which basically you're told you cannot think critically because there are economic consequences to it. And that money itself is the megaphone that can drown out all sort of like dissent, like the, the whole, the whole crux of critical thinking is taking like both sides and examining an issue in full.
00;51;00;08 - 00;51;06;13
Aaron
And so, yeah, you know, like, yes, technology is hurting critical thinking. Money is just as bad, if not worse.
00;51;06;13 - 00;51;28;27
Derek
I think that's what I think. That's well said. You know, it it really is interesting. Like none of so three of us here went to law school and like passed the bar exam. And did you ever practice like as a I mean, not in-house but like at a firm you did. Okay. I never practiced after law school. I went straight into the business sector.
00;51;29;03 - 00;51;52;13
Derek
Did you practice? Okay, I will say the best. One of the things that I'm most grateful for having gone through that process is for years, because I did the joint, the joint program for years of being able to look at any issue and being able to kind of like argue either side of it. And I feel like that skill that person is describing is quickly getting lost and like, it's not even just a law school thing.
00;51;52;13 - 00;52;03;00
Derek
I just think it's like people are struggling with the ability to be able to look at an issue and argue both sides of it in a way that feels like they can get to the truth a little bit faster. Yeah, and I think that's a problem.
00;52;03;01 - 00;52;03;18
Pri
I agree.
00;52;03;19 - 00;52;04;07
Derek
But I think.
00;52;04;08 - 00;52;22;19
Aaron
I think that's what schools are going to start to focus on because it's a little bit like math, right? We had a calculator. You can just use a calculator to do a lot of the basic math curriculum. The calculator just came out what in mass in the late 1970s to mid 1980s? I mean, I think math proficiency has gone up.
00;52;22;19 - 00;52;47;09
Aaron
So I think that will adjust and people still be thinking critically. They'll be working two days a week. They'll be spending more time in experiences and and getting max extracted by this, like AI Super Wall Street, that's that's going to be building on top of it. I know when Aaron wants to rap upon because that is a pod wrapping.
00;52;47;15 - 00;52;53;18
Pri
That is that is that should I ensure the pod?
00;52;53;20 - 00;53;00;21
Aaron
Aaron is done with this and I would like some lunch.
00;53;00;23 - 00;53;20;03
Pri
All right. Today we're live from New York City. It's me, Chris, Derek and Aaron talking all things crypto, AI, tech, culture and more. Just as a quick reminder, these thoughts and opinions are our own and not of our employer. And none of this is financial advice.
00;53;20;06 - 00;53;23;06
Derek
The ticker is and always has been Eth.