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No matter who you are or what you do, growing your communication skills will benefit your life. In this episode, Alex and Ben explain why communication matters and how you can start getting better at it. They break down 2 of 7 actions to improve your communication, along with some foundational principles to keep in mind. Make sure to follow the podcast so you don’t miss part 2 of this episode!
Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Episode Recap:
- When did you realize communication was important to you?
- You can learn a lot when you pay attention to how someone delivers their message
- Growing as a communicator can benefit every one of us
- Key principles for strong communication
- If you want to grow as a communicator, focus on these 7 actions
- 1. Remember who it’s for
- 2. Understand the standards of effective communication:
- Good communication is CLEAR
- Good communication is CONFIDENT
- Good communication is CONCISE
- Good communication is ENERGETIC
- Good communication is EFFECTIVE
- Check back next week for part 2 of this conversation!
If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
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Creators and Guests
What is Path for Growth?
Path for Growth exists to help impact-driven leaders step into who they were created to be SO THAT others benefit and God is glorified.
When did you first realize that public speaking was something that you wanted to do?
Alex Judd:Yeah. I don't know that I thought of it as public speaking at the time, but my first memory that this kind of came on my radar that I I mean, I vividly remember this, and my mom remembers it too. I was in second grade, and, she was folding laundry, and I was just sitting in, in their room on the bed just kind of chatting. Right? And, I remember she was folding laundry just kind of out of nowhere.
Alex Judd:We weren't even talking about this. Said, You know, mom, when I grow up, I don't think I want to be a motivational speaker, but I would like to be a motivational teacher one day. And then she just kind of looked up from the lawyer and was like, what? Like, what? Like, where did that come from?
Alex Judd:And I think she said, go play outside. She has since told me she's like, her frame of reference for motivational speakers is that at that time was like, you had to have your arm bitten off by a shark if you're gonna so she was like, what is gonna happen this kid? Oh my gosh. But I I think that literally was the beginning. That's not to say I had like this a to z plan, but it was I mean, the topic of communication, I can genuinely say, like, was on my mind at that time and has been on my mind is something that I paid, like, really, really deep attention to ever since.
Ben Loy:That's it's so funny to me that that at that age, you were able to delineate a difference between, like, talking and communicating.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Well, I I think it's a God thing, right? Like, I I mean, and I think there's all of us can say this. This isn't unique to me, that there is evidence of what we are maybe called to do or gifted to do in our childhood. And thankfully for me, that was something that I vividly remember and held on to.
Alex Judd:But then, you know, that wasn't the only time. I remember in elementary school sitting back and, like, my history teacher teaching a lesson to us in elementary school and me sitting back and literally just thinking to myself, I could communicate this better than they are right now, and here's what I would do differently. And, like, very prideful very prideful thought to have as a fourth grader, but, but again just highlights the fact that like, man, there are certain things that God has given us that it's like we didn't even necessarily have to work to become passionate about, we were already passionate about it. And then what's so cool is when you pair when you pair that passion with hard work, which I, you know, I would like to say that I've done, I've been studying this, working on this, developing as a communicator for a very long time now, well then that's where you start to really experience growth, I think.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Did you ever take that for granted?
Alex Judd:Oh, man. I think I I still take it for granted in some ways. Like, gosh, for again, for a very, very long time, anytime I hear someone speak in any context, I am I simultaneously listen to the message that they're given giving, and then I also listen to the way that they're giving the message. And truly, I have notebooks where the left side of the notebook is dedicated to the way they give the message and the right side of the notebook is given to the message that they've given. Right?
Alex Judd:And so, I mean, I have heard a lot of people speak, and every single time I listen to someone speak, that's how I listen, right? Is with those two, whether it's physically or mentally. It's always how are they giving the message and then what's the message that they're giving. Sometimes I get I actually pay way more attention to how they're giving the message and that can actually be not a good thing. But as a result, do I take it for granted?
Alex Judd:A lot of times if I'm not careful, you know, as a business leader now, I'll delegate communicating something to someone else. I'll just be like, oh, just give a thirty minute speech. No big deal. Like, knock yourself out. And, then you see their face and it's like, oh my gosh, this sounds awful.
Alex Judd:Like, so I think what I often take for granted is number one, not everyone thinks about this and that that's the way it is. You know, this is not me boasting. That's the way it is with everyone in their gifting. You you didn't have to get trained on it because you were gifted in it.
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Alex Judd:And so you take for granted that that something that came naturally to you might have to get trained to others. But then the other thing I take for granted is that I I still learn is not everyone enjoys it. I, like, I legitimately, like, I think it might be one of my favorite things to do on the planet is to take a subject to create a message that is aimed at engaging an audience around that subject and teaching it to them so that they grow and then delivering that message. I love every facet of that from start to to even pass the finish of it. And it doesn't matter if it's four people, which I've done, or 4,000 people, which I've also done.
Alex Judd:I I just love the activity of it. And it turns out not everyone feels that way, but I think it's Jerry Seinfeld that, he makes the joke. He says, you know, the data literally says that most people are more afraid of public speaking than of death. And so and what he says is he says, so if you're at a funeral, you would rather be the one in the casket than the one giving the eulogy. You see what that means?
Alex Judd:It's like it's wild that it terrifies people, but I've I've honestly always loved it.
Ben Loy:Yeah. You talked about taking notes on the talk and then taking notes on the way that they're communicating. I mean, we I've shared with you recently, I was preparing to give a talk for probably the first time in I don't know how long, since I was involved in Toastmasters as a kid, I think, genuinely. Yeah. And and one of the things that I did was, like, I'm gonna listen to a communicator that I really appreciate and just listen like, not even really listen to their message, just listen to the way they were communicating.
Ben Loy:And that's probably the first time in my life I've I've ever done that. Really? Okay. So talk
Alex Judd:to Who did you listen to and what was that experience like? Like, what did you pull from it?
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, it was it was Matt Chandler.
Alex Judd:Okay.
Ben Loy:And, and I think some of the things I pulled from it was, like, especially from his intro, just the way he would, segue from a story or an illustration, and then he would establish a truth, and then he would, like, state that truth. And then from there, the rest of his talk or his sermon was an explanation or defense of that truth that he stated. And, I mean, that's not the only way to communicate, but it was like, here's a guy that I appreciate as a communicator that I listen to a lot and who has, through his communication, served me really well. But now I'm looking at it from a lens of of who like, how is he communicating, right, versus just listening to the message that he's sharing.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I think that's so good. And I and, I mean, that's gonna be one of the practices. So we're gonna talk about seven actions today. Yep.
Alex Judd:And that's directly related to to one of the actions that we're gonna talk. But I mean, like, if if we're talking high level just at the beginning of this conversation, I am just so deeply convinced. And I am biased, but just because I'm biased doesn't mean I'm wrong. Right? I'm so deeply convinced that it would benefit everyone.
Alex Judd:And I am I am saying the word everyone literally. It would benefit everyone to grow as a communicator.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I I mean, I agree. And I've shared this with you this year. This is this is something I identified as an area I would personally like to grow, so I'm excited to to dive into this a little bit more.
Alex Judd:The other thing that's so cool about the topic of communication growth is it's it's not all that dissimilar, from why I love running, and that I love running because it's immediately accessible to everyone. Right? All you need is a pair of shoes and there's a whole community of people that would argue you don't even need that. Right? Like to go for a run and you can get better at running.
Alex Judd:Communication is the same thing. It's not you don't have to go buy a bunch of stuff. You don't you don't have to go, you know, get a speaking gig to practice as a communicator. Everything we're gonna talk about today, like you can literally start practicing today. And what's so neat about communication too is you don't even have to carve out additional time to practice if you just bring more intentionality to the thing you're already doing.
Alex Judd:Many of us are talking already. What if we started to say, how do I actually communicate this? Well then, man, if you have that many opportunities for reps and practice and you apply your intent to it, you're gonna grow. And so I just see a lot of times the minute people decide they want to grow as a communicator, they get on this path that it's actually really cool to see how fast you can improve. Yeah.
Ben Loy:So let's jump in here. What are things to consider or keep in mind, as far as, like, if you want to grow as a communicator?
Alex Judd:Yeah. So I would highlight three principles that, you know, I would just want everyone to have at the forefront in their mind as we jump into this seven actions. So these principles really represent truths that are why it's helpful to grow as a communicator. Number one, there's a difference between talking and communicating. And I actually probably don't need to elaborate on that.
Alex Judd:People understand, and and communication has intent embedded into it. Right? I I've heard it say before that a good teacher takes the complex and make it makes it simple. Sometimes an educator takes the simple and makes it incredibly complex. Right?
Alex Judd:So we wanna be great teachers. We wanna be simplifiers of things in service of other people, and that's a difference between talking and communicating. Number two, communication is a kingpin skill. What I mean by that is, you know, it's a bowling analogy, obviously. So so if you go bowling, I don't often do this, but what do you want to do?
Alex Judd:You want to hit the kingpin. Why? Because that front pin is the one that if you knock it over, it knocks everything else over. I deeply believe this because I've seen it play out true in my life, and I've seen it play out true in so many leaders' lives that we work with around the country. If you grow in communication, so many other things become available to you.
Alex Judd:Because we live in a world that requires you to communicate. And the minute you grow as a communicator, you unlock opportunities for learning, for growth, connection, for partnership. Everything gets a little bit easier and a little bit more effective the minute you decide to grow as a communicator. So it's a kingpin skill. And then the final thing that I just want people to remember, and then if you've got any questions you'd like to follow-up on these principles, is that communication is complex.
Alex Judd:So we have a diagram and a team training that we do on this topic, but I'll just see if I can describe it. So think about what communication is. There's a message that I have in my brain that I intend to send. Then there's the words that I choose to use to send that message, and that message gets sent. Now I oftentimes even struggle with that jump, right?
Alex Judd:The message in my brain. Yeah, that's right. The message in my brain to the words that I use. Right? But then there's the message that you receive and then the message you receive, the message you interpret, and then the message you intend to send, and then there's the words you speak.
Alex Judd:And that what we just described right there, like seven steps is one part of a conversation. Absurd. It is so complex. Right? And and every single one of those junctures is an opportunity for absurd breakdown.
Alex Judd:I see that, and I'm like, I am just grateful that anything ever works ever. Right? That I mean, we should really be grateful to God because I think it is a miracle. Right? And so communication is complex.
Alex Judd:You taking ideas from your head and transferring them into the minds of other people so that they can act on them is an incredibly complex activity. And that's why what we're gonna focus on in these seven actions, you don't counter complexity with complexity. You counter complexity with simplicity. And so much what what we're gonna be talking about in these seven actions is is hopefully going to help you simplify your communication so that it can be used not to confuse people, but rather to serve people.
Ben Loy:We were in our leadership incubator a couple weeks ago or last week, and totally unrelated conversation, but one of the examples that was used was it involved the idea of establishing rhythms and and protocols around snow removal in the city of Minneapolis versus Saint Paul. Yeah. And we were discussing the different approaches that they took. And I think one of the things that just came to mind in the moment when I was talking about it was, like, weather is such an unpredictable thing and something that we cannot control. And so it really requires, like, structure and predictability in the way that we approach the response to it.
Ben Loy:And I think communication could be somewhat similar. It's like we can't always control exactly how someone is going to, like, receive the message that you're sharing. But if if we if we establish some principles to follow and we're well practiced and and have created an environment where there's some level of structure, that becomes easier.
Alex Judd:That's right. Yeah. We're talking about intentionality. We're talking about simplicity. I especially if we're talking about leading a business, I'm trying to think if I've ever met a leader that was effective that wasn't an effective communicator.
Alex Judd:I I don't think that I have, and I also don't think that that's a coincidence. I think that it's one of those things you have to be effective at to to lead well. And I also think that the lid on your leadership will be the lid of your effectiveness as a communicator. So so, like, you know, if you are hitting a ceiling as a communicator, your leadership is also going to hit that ceiling eventually. Praise God, we can grow is what I would, you know, hope everyone can keep in mind.
Alex Judd:The other thing that I would, you know, encourage people to remember is communicator is not an identity. Right? You never go to the hospital and they say it's a boy, it's a girl. Oh my gosh, you had a communicator. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, no. Right. And so it's a skill that can be learned and developed. Certainly, are people that are more predisposed to be good at it and enjoy it. But I have seen people that are literally terrified at it and don't think they're good at it grow to I mean, like legit give talks for a living.
Alex Judd:I have I have I know these people. And so that has just instilled in me a great deal of confidence that anyone can grow in this. They just have to decide that they want to.
Ben Loy:Cool. Well, let's jump in.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Okay. So we got seven actions, and and these are really practical things you can do to grow as a communicator. And I would say these apply to communication to groups. Right?
Alex Judd:So groups could be, you know, your four person leadership team. It could be your 400 person company. It could be your networking group that you're part of. But then I also would say this is also really, really great practical tools for communicating to audience. So that's that's more public speaking.
Alex Judd:Right? And so action number one is remember who it's for. And the reason why I wanted to start here is because we already we already said this. Right? What keeps most people sidelined, from growing as a communicator, I would say nerves.
Alex Judd:Right? It freaks them out. And the reason why that when I talk to people that are freaked out by the idea of public speaking, the reason that I often see is really driving that fear is they are very, very concerned with what are people are gonna think about me. Mhmm. How are people gonna perceive me?
Alex Judd:What are people gonna think about me? What what if I make a fool of myself? What if I what if I'm not good at it? Right? It's all me, myself, and I, which, you know, we would call it fear and nervousness, which can look humble.
Alex Judd:In reality, you have taken the entire subject of communication, which in itself is designed to be service, and you've made it about yourself. And so remember who it's for is just this reorientation of our mind and attitude of saying, this is for them. This isn't for me. So although those questions might be interesting, they're irrelevant because, really, this is how am I going to serve them? And what I found is the minute people start to remember who it's actually for, their nerves actually go down.
Ben Loy:Yeah. It is it's funny how pride there's, like, two sides to the same coin with pride. It can either look, oh, this person wants to get up in front of thousands of people and make themselves look, like, you know, otherworldly and heroic or Yes. Or like, you know, brag about themselves. But there is another side of like, if if you're so terrified of, of standing in front of people in that way because you've you're just constantly thinking about yourself and, oh, yeah, like, what do they think of me?
Ben Loy:I don't wanna look like an idiot. I don't wanna you know, it's that's still pride. It's still an overemphasis on, like, your identity and and who you are and and honestly, like, what people probably are gonna think or even remember about you.
Alex Judd:Yeah. That's right. That's right. And I mean, I I love that you called attention to the other side of that too is it is in your best interest to go into any message, any talk, any meeting where you're supposed to communicate, and maybe you're the per this is me. I I would say this.
Alex Judd:Maybe you are the person that's more of a performer by nature, and you you make it about yourself, but that makes it into this performance that draws attention to you that puts the spotlight on you. If if that's more your wiring, then you would also benefit from remembering who it's for. Because I I know this to be true. I've learned this the hard way sometimes. But, man, people people can sniff out a prideful, boastful, arrogant communicator from a mile away these days.
Alex Judd:What we are very practiced at understanding who those people are. And the minute you start just telling all these stories that make yourself look like the hero and you're not looking to serve people, you're looking to impress people, and you're just hoping, you know, you're just kind of waiting for people's feedback. Like, that's the reason why you're doing it. People can sniff that out from a mile away, and they won't trust it. And because they don't trust it, they won't follow it.
Alex Judd:And so it benefits both sides of that spectrum to really internalize before we ever communicate, hey, who is this for? It I would add to that it's one of the reasons why you and I pray anytime we do a podcast episode. For me personally at least, it's like, God help me to remember why we're actually doing this. Yeah. You know, it's not it's not Alex Judd's story time where I get to look like this here.
Alex Judd:That's not the goal at all. It's like to actually serve and help people. And if that's the vision, the strategy looks way different.
Ben Loy:Yeah. And for me, the prayer is make the connection between my brain and my mouth work.
Alex Judd:Very good. Very good. Both are valid prayers.
Ben Loy:Yeah. What's, what's number two?
Alex Judd:Okay. So so number one is remember who it's for. Number two is actually a whole lesson that I I created years ago called understand the standards of effective communication. This again I don't know if I've shared this story. This is a god thing because this is still the base level fundamental communication framework that I reference for myself today as a communicator that that it's the first thing I reference whenever I teach communicators.
Alex Judd:And I've been teaching this for a very long time now. And the way that this came about was in it would have been 2012. I was an intern for a church. I was a a incoming junior in college, and I was an intern at a church, and we were at beach week. And the pastor had told me, hey.
Alex Judd:During this lunch at beach week, you're gonna take a group of 40 high school students, and I want you to teach them something in the middle of the day so they're out of the heat. And that's your time, you use it how you see fit. And naturally, as an incoming junior in college, I waited till the hour before that was about to happen to create that lesson. Right? Which that's not a recommendation for communication.
Alex Judd:But I man, to this day, I can't even remember, like, how this came about. But I was walking on the beach getting ready for this and you know, I was excited about it because I loved communication. And I and I was, honored to be asked to do this. And I was just thinking about what would be most helpful. And I just said, well, what is effective communication?
Alex Judd:And I was walking on the beach, and literally, what came to mind as I was on the beach that day is clear, confident, concise, energetic, and effective. Right? That was what I thought of. And then I proceeded to give, you know, an hour lesson on those five topics about an hour later. And it went like really, really, really well.
Alex Judd:It was crazy. At one point, I was sitting on a table and the table collapsed, but I jumped up fast enough and it was like this unbelievable moment. I was like, wow. That I I don't know if I I could do that again if I tried. Like, but all that to say, it went really, really well.
Alex Judd:And literally, this framework is since then, every message that I give, I run it through the filter of these five qualities. Anytime I evaluate someone's message, you know, to help them grow as a communicator, I'm using these five qualities. And really, there's not magic to these five qualities. It's just a reminder, a simple reminder of what effective communication actually is. And so before we kind of break each one down, anything else you'd add to that or any questions you have on that?
Ben Loy:No. I mean, I I guess I would just reiterate that you practice what you preach. We were talking about this on a hike when we were talking about a talk I was doing Yeah. Last week, and it was really helpful for me to look at what I was trying to say through this lens. So I'm I'm excited to dive into this a little more.
Alex Judd:And really what these represent is not dissimilar from what we talk about in our operationalized content. These represent standards. Mhmm. Because if you ask someone, hey, can you evaluate my communication? You're like, well, compared to what or through what lens?
Alex Judd:Right? The minute you use these five words, hey, can you tell me red, yellow, green, how was I in these five areas? It becomes so easy to grow, to improve, and then you can actually front load that and read your message beforehand or practice your message beforehand and keep these standards in mind, which is really helpful. So can I walk through one at a time maybe?
Ben Loy:Sure. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, like, as far as clear goes, which is the first one
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Ben Loy:Where does clarity start in the process of of being a communicator, preparing to communicate? Are you looking at obviously, like the end result would be what they're sharing
Alex Judd:Mhmm.
Ben Loy:But how can you make sure that you're going to be clear going into something like that?
Alex Judd:Yeah. We we already hit on some of this. Understand your motive for communicating because that's gonna drive what you say, and then understand what you're actually trying to communicate. And we'll get more into that in point three, but a lot of times people don't communicate clearly because they don't actually know what they're trying to say. So clarity of intent and clarity of message is key.
Alex Judd:That's why we have a whole action dedicated to that topic. But then the other thing that I really wanna focus on with clarity, this is what I used to always teach whenever I would teach high schoolers communication is message matters, manner matters more. I have heard so many communicators that their message was a 10. Right? Like, really, really exceptional message.
Alex Judd:They cared about it. They thought about it. They man, they believed in the content. They worked so hard to prepare the content, but their manner was a two. And what I mean by manner is, like, ums, uhs, likes, low volume, like, energy, nonengaging, zero eye contact.
Alex Judd:I knew a guy once that I watched him communicate, and as he was communicating, hopefully, you're watching on video so you can see this. As he was communicating the message he was trying to get, literally he was talking and his hand just went like this and he just started going like this with his fingers and he had no clue he was doing it. It was his nervous tic or something. He was just doing that and and it's like, that is incredibly distracting. And like everyone in the room at that point, no one heard what he was saying because everyone was like, what is this joker doing with his hand right now?
Alex Judd:Right? And it's kind of like, Ricky Bobby from Talladega Nights is like, don't know what to do with my hand. That stuff is incredibly important. And we we often don't pay attention to that stuff because we're like, oh, that's thinking too much about myself. No.
Alex Judd:If you don't do that stuff well, people are not gonna be able to hear what you are saying. Right. And so the clarity of your message, the volume, the amount of filler words you're using. In the high school communication class I used to teach, anytime they'd say like or anytime they'd start a sentence with, we'd do 10 push ups. And they got better real fast.
Alex Judd:Right? So that that's what we're talking about when we talk about clarity is is your message able to be delivered in such a way that it can be understood? Most of us never even get to the starting line because there's too many blockers.
Ben Loy:What is what's the bridge between those things you just identified? The the the nervous tics, the the weird, like, fidgeting. Right? And confidence.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Because that's the second quality.
Ben Loy:Right.
Alex Judd:I think there's you can have confidence in your message and confidence in yourself, and I think you need both. Right? So confidence in your message is do you feel competent and therefore confident in what you're about to deliver? And do you do you believe what you're sharing? Because if you don't believe in what you're sharing, why on earth should anyone else?
Alex Judd:And they will not. People again, people can smell it from a mile away. And that's what I would say is when you're confident in your message, there are still quirks. And I would actually say the best communicators I know still have a lot of quirks, but those quirks don't represent the lack of attentiveness or preparation to clarity. Those quirks represent authenticity because they're literally so comfortable.
Alex Judd:It's this was meme for quite a while. Whenever I became the host of the Entre Leadership Podcast, right, one of the largest and most prolific business and leadership podcasts in the country, Ken Coleman, brilliant leader, brilliant podcaster. He was the one that was developing me. And and I'll never forget one of the first times we ever sat down to record, we were having great conversation and we were going back and forth and stuff. And then he said, okay, let's go ahead and hit record.
Alex Judd:And it was like we were talking, we hit record, and then I was like, hey, Kim. I'm Alex. It's great to see you today. This is gonna be awesome. And he like just was like, okay, pause.
Alex Judd:He was like, who is that? And and he just, you know, gave me a hard time and then he was like, that's like your, like, Magoo voice. And I I want you to try to never use your Magoo voice ever again.
Ben Loy:You're not a sports announcer. Exactly.
Alex Judd:And that's I mean, truly Yeah. It's wild because I I work with people a lot on practicing their communication. When we were practicing the talk you're working on, you did a great job of not doing this the
Ben Loy:other day. That's what
Alex Judd:it's like. They literally talk about what they're about to do, and then I say, okay. That's great. Now let's just go ahead and do it. And their entire tone, their entire inflection, their entire, like, body posture, it changes.
Alex Judd:Right? And it's like, just be so confident in your message that nothing changes, that you just go straight into it. So that's confident in message. And then number two is confident in yourself. Right?
Alex Judd:You do have to have a level of belief of it's like, you're here for a reason. And and I would say if people wanna if people wanna spend time on confidence in yourself, I think a great place to start would be our impostor syndrome episode that we recorded a couple weeks ago. Yeah. That's probably already released if we're if if you're listening to this podcast right now. Go check out that episode because I think that certainly overlaps with this topic of confidence.
Ben Loy:Yeah. And in that conversation, we talk a lot about integrity and just, like, reflecting your your the values that you or the image that you project on the outside reflecting how you feel on the inside. And some of the because feelings are volatile, like, of the truths you need to rely on to remain in integrity. And, yeah, if you don't have that, if there's a disconnect there, I personally, I'm like, I can't I I foot, mouth, like, can't talk, you know.
Alex Judd:That's right. And and I think one of the things that prevents people from being confident is the expectations that they put on themselves that that they don't have to be putting on themselves. And oftentimes, no other people are putting on themselves. I've talked to people before that are like, I just don't feel like I'm equipped to do this message because I feel like I need to be an expert on this content. Like, you know, there are people that are better at this than I am.
Alex Judd:I, you know, I've only been doing this for three years now. And who am I to give this talk? And there's so many amazing people in this room. And I think that person went astray the minute they put the expectation on themselves that they needed to be an expert. Right?
Alex Judd:And that's why I love to tell people. I start out the gate most of the talks that I give and say, just so you know, I'm not an expert on this. I am a practitioner and my goal today is not to show you everything that I've learned that makes me a master of this subject. Rather, it's the stuff that I've practiced on this subject that I've found really beneficial and that I wanna share with you. The minute you do that, like, my shoulder's lower, my breath sinks in because I'm like, I'm just gonna be who I am.
Alex Judd:But, again, I can't do that if my primary goal is to impress you. If my primary goal is to impress you, then I'm never gonna say stuff like that. Right? If my primary goal is to serve you, then that's just a vehicle for being able to do that. Yeah.
Ben Loy:Let's move on to the next one.
Alex Judd:Okay. So it's clear, confident, concise. The way I used to teach this to to high schoolers, and I don't know if it actually helped or not, but I would always say triple c, double e is what I think of. And and so clear, confident, concise. This is something that people often get wrong in communication that we'll probably, double back to here in just a bit in one of the future actions.
Alex Judd:We think that concise is the shortest message possible. That is not what concise means. It's accomplishing the intended objective in the most efficient way possible. So if I wanted to accomplish what we're doing right now as the shortest message possible, I would say the five qualities are clear, concise, confident, energetic, and effective. That's the podcast.
Alex Judd:And it would be a less than thirty second podcast that people listen to because that's the shortest message possible. Right? But why do we not do that? Well, the reason why we don't do that is because I know that for someone to grow as a communicator, it's not enough just for them to get the information. They've gotta have examples.
Alex Judd:They've gotta have illustration. They've gotta have reinforcement so they're fully convinced. They've gotta have stories so that they're emotionally bought in. They've gotta have inflection so that they stay engaged in all of that. And so what concise really is, what I'm evaluating when I'm thinking about concise is did I accomplish my objectives, which means you have to have objectives, by the way, in the most efficient way possible.
Alex Judd:So if I wanted them to feel inspired and empowered to grow as a communicator, if I wanted them to understand the five qualities, and then if I wanted them to take one intentional action, if those were my objectives, what's the most efficient way to accomplish those objectives? And then we can start to look at how much time we took and how much time. But the thing obviously regarding against here is useless meandering in areas that don't at all tie into an intended objective. That's where we cross the line from communicating into talking, and it's not helpful. And so remember, concise, the most efficient way to accomplish your desired objectives.
Alex Judd:What's the best way
Ben Loy:to know whether or not you're being either concise enough or you need to elaborate more?
Alex Judd:Yeah. This connects actually to confidence too. And this is why I would say you wanna be confident in your message and not confident in your ability to memorize. I know a lot of people that are actually speakers by by trade, and what they are actually that what they actually are is they are world class memorizers. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And and maybe there's a place for that. Those people make a lot of money, actually. So maybe there's a very strong place for that. Right? And I'm not demeaning that at all.
Alex Judd:That's just not what we're talking about here. And that's personally not the thing that I'm most passionate about. What I'm most passionate about is you being so well versed in a skill, you being so well versed in a subject that you have your base level outline because that's confident preparation. But then from that, you're able to adapt and adjust and move and mold to fit the needs of the audience. Yeah.
Alex Judd:And so the best communicators I know are the ones that are watching their audience. And it is wild. If you pay attention, like and actually watch. Most people don't look at their audience in the eyes. They either look at their foreheads or they look somewhere off in the distance that is no one at all.
Alex Judd:If you actually look in your audience's eyes, you will know when you've stopped being concise. Yeah. Right? And it's not even like sometimes they fall asleep and that's really embarrassing. I've had that happen before and you're like, oh gosh, what do I do here?
Alex Judd:Which I always shift to a story that gives me the ability to say and bam. Like, I walk right by him. It's great. Yeah. But but more often than not, it's just like this glazed over look, and you're like, okay.
Alex Judd:I I need to I need to bring him back in. I need to reel him back in. Maybe it's a joke. Maybe it's a shift of subject. Maybe it's a story.
Alex Judd:Maybe maybe I need to change my inflection or something like that, but we need to do something to accomplish our objectives, and maybe we're spending too much time on this subject.
Ben Loy:I had a math teacher in high school who would lob expo markers in your general direction if
Alex Judd:you started to fall asleep. Okay. Done that.
Ben Loy:Not probably recommended for this, but, I that's such an interesting I I haven't even I guess, I've thought about that before, like, wanting to feel natural, engaging with your audience in a almost in a conversational way. Because I think some of the most effective communicators that I listen to, it's almost like they're having a conversation.
Alex Judd:That's right.
Ben Loy:And I I'm I'm sitting across the table from you right now. I'm like, there is so much about communication that is nonverbal that, like, we're responding off of in a conversation. And if you remove that from the equation when it comes to public speaking and you're just staring off into the distance or or not factoring that into or, like, taking that into consideration, yeah, that I mean, that's gonna completely change the authenticity and ability for you to to really engage with your audience. And I've I've never really I mean, like, obviously, I've always understood and heard eye contact, things like that are important, but that, I think, adds an additional layer that I haven't I probably didn't even consider going into that.
Alex Judd:And it's this is a little bit of a deviation, but directly related to the topic of effective communication. This is something that I've tried to grow very intentionally in in in the past three years because it's not my natural style as a communicator. The minute the minute you start telling a good story, people's eyes change. Mhmm. It is crazy.
Alex Judd:Like, it gives me chills talking about it. Emphasis on good story. Right? But the minute you start telling a good story, oh my gosh, the entire dynamic of the room changes. So I think that's a a great piece for engaging an audience that we've gotta keep in mind.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, I mean, going back to concise versus, I guess, further elaboration and and knowing that balance, You talked about memorization. And one of the things that, I was talking to John Crawford about Yeah. Our pastor who we're we'll have on this podcast. We have a couple episodes with him coming up that I'm excited about.
Ben Loy:But we were talking and and he he said there's a difference and there's a balance between internalization versus memorization and being able to navigate, like, the story I was sharing, right, is something that I lived through. And so I can that is already internalized. Internalized. Like, Like, I could stand in front of a room and tell that story from start to finish any day. Right?
Ben Loy:Like, zero preparation. Now, the the the clarity of it, the, the confidence in I'm involved in standing in front of room and telling that story. Like, there there are some parts of it that, okay, yeah, some practice is probably good. But ultimately, like, I'll get from point a to point b in that story without losing track, because it's an it it's internalized. And then he talked about memorization, like memorizing the things that that are important to make my make my point and to drive things home, like numbers, statistics, scriptural passages, things that, yeah, I'm I I don't internally know from experience.
Ben Loy:And that's when you refer or bounce back to a script or you you rely on more memorization and and use that as a tactic. But there's definitely a spectrum where, like, full memorization, you you lose all authenticity and connection with your audience. And full internalization is like, okay. You might you might get to a point in the talk where the audience is like, what what's the point again? Like, where are where are we in this?
Alex Judd:You know?
Ben Loy:That's right. Yeah. So just that was I just love the that framework of internalization versus memorization. It really connected for
Alex Judd:me. I think a com well, who's to say what's, quote, unquote, right? I would say my preference is to do a combination of the the two. You're right. And if I was to look at my talks, I would say my best talks are 70% internalization, 30% memorization.
Alex Judd:And and so that's not to say that that should be your template, but you should probably if you're if you wanna grow as a communicator, eventually get to the spot where you have a template of how much of this is internalized versus how much of this is memorized. What I often see, though, is that the minute people cross over the 50% mark into, like, sixty, seventy, 80% memorization, then they are spending all of their time and all of their brain capacity thinking about what's the next word on the page, and you can literally see it in their eyes. Like, their eyes are looking up to the back of their brain like it's written up there or something And like and they are not able to spend any time analyzing how's the room receiving this. Yeah. And it's like a phone will ring, or someone will sneeze, or something crazy, yeah, baby will start crying in the room and it will be like, I'm pretty sure they don't even know that just happened.
Alex Judd:Right? Because they just keep moving on and that actually feels very inauthentic. Right? It's why there's a leadership speaker, his name is Pat Lencioni, that's just he is he I would not call him a speaker. I would call him a communicator.
Alex Judd:He's so good. And it's just because what he teaches is just a part of who he is. And literally, someone sneezes in an audience of 4,000 and he will be smacked out in the middle of the thought and he'll say, oh, God bless you. Right? And like like everyone else is still three seconds away from realizing someone sneezed, but it's like you just get the vibe that this guy is so in the moment Yeah.
Alex Judd:And like he's so reading the audience that he's able to respond on a dime and it's it's, yeah, very good.
Ben Loy:Very good. Yeah. Continuing the conversation on being able to connect with your audience and engage, where does where does the next one, being energetic or being or having energy, play into that?
Alex Judd:Yeah. I I heard a stat once, which I don't I don't know how you measure this, but I can anecdotally say I I feel like it is true. It said a communicator should never expect an audience to reciprocate more than 70% of the energy that they bring. And I from from my own experience, I can say I believe that that is true. Right?
Alex Judd:And, I believe that that is true in all ways in terms of, like, if you bring positive energy and you are a 100% energetic, man, you're you're gonna see more energy in the room. Conversely, if you bring 50% energy, it's gonna be a freefall in your audience, and and you should not expect them to respond to things. You should not expect them to engage with things. You should not expect their nonverbal to be good. This is why communication and leadership go hand in hand.
Alex Judd:You are the leader in this situation, and and so you gotta be willing to take the lead in. And, what we gotta kinda remember is do you wanna be a thermometer or do you wanna be a thermostat? A thermometer tells you what the temperature is. So they walk into a really low energy, boring, apathetic room, and they just say, well, this is the temperature, so this is how I'm going to communicate. Right?
Alex Judd:A thermostat says, I I quite frankly, it's irrelevant what the temperature is. I'm gonna say, where do we want the temperature to be? And I'm gonna strategize my talk around getting us there. This is what so many leaders don't do in the after lunch spot. Right?
Alex Judd:If you're communicating after lunch, like, you know I mean, people would rather be taking a nap, period. Like, that is what is true. Right? And so the best communicators I know, they don't ignore that, but they also don't settle for that. Right?
Alex Judd:There's a lot of leaders I mean, I've seen speakers say, well, I've got the afternoons, like, afternoon slots, so just do your best not to fall asleep. And it's like, oh, no. Why are you saying this? What we should be doing is we should be acknowledging where the energy of the room is and organizing the the first ten minutes of our talk to get the energy of the room to where we want it to be.
Ben Loy:Dive a little bit more into what you are saying about being energetic and what you're not saying about being energetic.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Like, what am I not saying that you need to be Alex Judd? Right? And that if you're not running out and jumping up and down and, like I've done all of this before. I've jumped I've jumped from one box to another and literally almost, I mean, almost got horribly injured to, like, get people excited.
Alex Judd:Right? And I I, you know, jump up and down, clap, have people stand up, say yes, all that. I love that stuff. Right? Do you have to be that to be an effective communicator?
Alex Judd:Absolutely not. I I think of Olivia on our team. She stylistically is a radically different communicator than I. But, man, when she gets up there, people lean in. And it's because her energy that she brings, I would say, would be characterized by poise, by preparation, and by great care.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. And and so you know, like, man, she like, these words matter to her. She has spent time on these words. And then she also has this great affect about her where she's got humor and smiling and encouragement, like, built in through her message that just feels very authentic to who she is, that I would say the room becomes more energetic the minute she gets on stage. And she didn't have to do it.
Alex Judd:She didn't have to jump once. Right? Which sometimes maybe I could learn from that. Right? But there you you need to figure out what is authentic to you is what I would say.
Alex Judd:The one thing I would caution people against, though, is if you have not spent a great deal of time communicating, then communicating itself will not feel authentic to you. Right? And so don't don't nick certain tactics because you're like, oh, that and feel good right off the bat just because maybe the thing that didn't feel good was communicating, but that's because you haven't really done it before. Yeah. And so you just need to have this trial and error period where you learn, and that's why reps are so helpful.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I I keep mentioning myself and the process for this, but that's because I'm being a student right now for this topic. And I think one of the things that you pointed out the other day that struck me was you when I was when I was kind of giving or practicing this talk, I I was relying a lot on my script. And at this point, I hadn't really practiced it a ton, so some of that was expected. But, I mean, I had written out almost word for word what I would have liked to say.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. And the thing that you pointed out in that was I I almost lost energy by relying on it so much. And you you told me, you were like, you are an animated communicator. You do talk energetically and and you use inflection and you use and you just kind of identified some of those things that I do in conversation when I'm talking, but I wasn't doing in the moment when I was practicing this the talk. And it was like, oh, this isn't this isn't an issue of am I an an extrovert?
Ben Loy:Am I, am I, like, a crazy motivational person or not? And more of, oh, yeah, does this does this feel natural for me? And of duh. Of course not. Because I haven't I'm not well practiced in it.
Ben Loy:So no, it doesn't. So I need to continue to practice.
Alex Judd:That's ex I know you're an anime communicator because we do a lot of work from my house and I'm often telling you, Ben, the baby is sleeping. Shut up. You have to be a little bit more quiet.
Ben Loy:Yeah. My my laugh gets me in trouble alone. That's right.
Alex Judd:Which is so good. Like Yeah. Yeah. There there's so much in that that I would, you know, I would even say the other thing I would say with energy, because you mentioned laugh, is humor. Humor is, like, the one thing that opens the door to everything else, and I mean that.
Alex Judd:Like, you wanna energize a room, like, find some ways to be genuinely funny. And it's crazy. I mean, I don't know. Right? This is not a theological recommendation at all, but Joel Osteen, if you've ever watched a Joel Osteen sermon, he the guy the guy communicates in a very different way stylistically than what we're talking about here.
Alex Judd:But the first thing he does is he goes up and tells, like, the cheesiest joke, and he's not even, like, he's not even apologetic. He, like, knows it's the cheesiest joke. The whole room of thousands of people laugh, and then they get into it. Right? And and I think the reason why he does that, someone that's incredibly gifted in the art of persuasion and communication, the reason why he does that is because humor is something that warms the room to everything else.
Ben Loy:How do you incorporate humor into into your communication? Is that something that you plan ahead of time, or is that something that you're, like, in the moment authentically using?
Alex Judd:Both.
Ben Loy:Okay.
Alex Judd:So, yeah, I guess there's a couple things I would say about this. I think the best humor is is genuinely spontaneous. Right? Like, it is like I was preaching a message at a church once, and we were, I mean, smack dab in the middle of some pretty intense subjects. And, I mean, the room is dead silent, and out of nowhere, a dog barks.
Alex Judd:Like, didn't even know there was a dog in the room. And everyone was like, no. Now think about this. If you're not confident in your message, what do you do in that moment? You probably just keep going because you're like, I don't know how to respond to that.
Alex Judd:Yeah. That is not appropriate at that time. Right? And so, like, I think I parked for two minutes on the fact that the dog was a charismatic dog and he was saying preach and he was in alignment with the message and all of that. And right.
Alex Judd:So so the best humor is spontaneous humor that you can't plan for, but you're so prepared that when the opportunity arises, you can take advantage of it. Mhmm. I mean, people it is so much fun. And then when that happens, you give people time to laugh, and you laugh at it too. If it's genuinely funny, like, what it are the the clips from SNL that people love to watch the most?
Alex Judd:It's the one where they can't help but crack up. Right? Yeah. If you do it too much, it's no good. Right?
Alex Judd:But but genuine emotion, genuine genuine, like, laughter is so so so good. And then the second thing is prepared humor. And the way I do that is I know it's so effective now. I know, like, I think Dave Ramsey is probably one of the best of this I've ever seen. If you go listen to I listened to a thirty minute talk he did for Life Church on financial peace.
Alex Judd:And I swear, as I was listening to it, the left page, right, of me where I'm, like, kind of evaluating how he's communicating, I'm like, these people that are listening to this have not gone for a minute and a half without laughing a single time in this entire message. And what's crazy is there were also times in the message where he had them on the verge of tears. And so the fact that he can do that, like, he's sporadically, like, putting points throughout. And so what I like to do is I look at my outline, and then, you know, this is maybe a couple days before I give the talk, just ask, what in here is funny? And if you ask that question, it's crazy.
Alex Judd:Like, there is some stuff that is genuinely hilarious Yeah. That then I find a way to work that into the talk.
Ben Loy:Well, I especially, I mean, in Dave's position, like, finances are such a can be such a heavy topic for people that and and or boring. Like, I I feel like I feel like there are multiple ways that people can go into a talk like that and be like, oh, brother, like, here we go, or And I think incorporating humor makes, a, it makes it relatable and engaging and b, just yeah, like, just lightens the mood.
Alex Judd:That's exactly right.
Ben Loy:Being able to I mean, you you talk about pride being being a potential issue both on the extreme side of of lack of confidence or, like, too much confidence. And what better way to alleviate that than to just, like, yeah, acknowledge maybe some of the quirky things that happened during the talk or, like, the unplanned things that that go on or or, yeah, what's funny about this topic? Like, what is actually humorous or weird or or quirky in a way that I can I can use that to engage the the audience in a relatable way?
Alex Judd:That's exactly right. Yeah. And this is probably not fully the the means of of what we're talking about here, but I think it's good as something for people to be aware of. There's a communication tactic called the illusion of spontaneity, which I get a little bit skeptical of this because I'm like, well, the goal is to be authentic. And if you're doing illusions, then you're literally not being authentic.
Alex Judd:But, there are a lot of incredibly effective communicators that leverage this very well of, like, what do people wanna know? People don't wanna know, oh, this is a talk you've given a billion times. People wanna think, I'm getting the single best version of this talk, and it's unique to me, unique to us. And so some really trained and practiced communicators will use what they call the illusion of spontaneity to basically have moments in the talk that look unplanned so that and that are funny or that are off the wall a little bit, and that gives the audience the impression of, like, oh, this is just for us. This is our moment.
Alex Judd:Right? That's more, you know, I don't know that I would encourage people to to spend too much time on that. You also don't want to be manipulative. That's exactly right. Yeah.
Alex Judd:And so I would say, but more than anything, give that to you as a listener to say, like, be on the lookout because as you start listening to stuff like this, you'll start to evaluate communication and you'll probably start to see that stuff a little Speaking
Ben Loy:of spontaneity, I've decided we're having too much fun in this conversation. So we're gonna do two parts.
Alex Judd:Okay. Yeah.
Ben Loy:That's good. In the last, we have about ten minutes left or a little less than
Alex Judd:ten minutes. Mean you don't wanna try and cram the final five actions and Well,
Ben Loy:we're gonna really lean on clarity. We're gonna just go through bullet points. That's right. No. Let's, let's jump into the last part of this this section which is effective and, yeah, go from there.
Alex Judd:Yeah. So the first time I ever wrote this outline, right, on on the beach in Panama City, or it was Orange Beach, actually, Alabama. I didn't know Alabama had great beaches, but it turns out they do. That's not an illusion of spontaneity. That right there is spontaneity.
Ben Loy:Florabama, dude. That's right.
Alex Judd:So so it was the five qualities of effective communication. And I and I worked on them, and I said clear, confident, concise, energetic, and effective. And then I was like, well, that's kinda dumb. Like, one of the qualities of effective communication is that it's effective. But then I thought about it.
Alex Judd:I was like, I think that's actually really important. And, you know, that's why I've kept it all the way through to today, you know, now fifteen years later or whatever, is because when we talk about effective, the word is used so often that it becomes synonymous with good, and effective communication is good communication. It's not less than that, but it is a great deal more than that. Because effective communication, what does it do? It it creates a desired or intended effect.
Alex Judd:So so what we're really saying is, did your message do what you intended it to do? And that's actually going to get into the third point that we dive into in part two now of this conversation, which is really having aim and intent for your message. But it's why it's so crucial that in the preparation of our communication, we define what we are trying to accomplish. And then we have rhythms on the back end of communicating where we are are, genuinely asking, did we accomplish what we wanted to accomplish? And sometimes one of the objectives is I want people to understand this message.
Alex Judd:Right? Andy Stanley says, man, it's really helpful to have a a one sentence message that if everyone gets nothing else, make sure they get this message. I'll give my talk and I'll have that message in mind, and then I'll just go to someone in the audience and I'll say, you know, if you were to summarize that talk in in one sentence, like, what would you say? And sometimes this is when I've nailed it. They'll tell me the exact sentence that I said.
Alex Judd:They will literally regurgitate it back to me, which that's a point in the effectiveness column. Right? There are other times which aren't my best as a communicator where they tell me something, but it's nothing like what I was trying to communicate, which means I'm struggling to transfer things from my head to their head. And that goes all the way back to how complex it is at the beginning. But if we're never evaluating the effectiveness arc of our communication, we're basically our our evaluation becomes, how'd you feel about that?
Alex Judd:And that's not a good evaluation.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I feel like that just that just is true with with anything. Right? I mean, like, if you're not asking, like, did we accomplish the desired result at the end of something? I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result.
Ben Loy:Like, if you aren't evaluating on the back end, you're insane. Like like, I mean, that's that's what that means. Right? If because you're just gonna keep doing the same thing if you're if you're not actively going, oh, what did we do well? What can we do different?
Ben Loy:And, yeah, did we accomplish what we wanted to accomplish? Yeah. You're just you're just gonna be running on a hamster wheel and not really growing.
Alex Judd:And that really effectively encapsulates really so much of what we've talked about today because the difference between talking and communicating is do you have a desired result? And then what we're talking about here now at the very tail end is are you evaluating whether or not you achieved that desired result?
Ben Loy:And I know this is a the evaluation side is another point that we'll get into in the next episode, but, we're out of time. So pause here and stay tuned for next week for part two.
Alex Judd:Awesome. Let's go. Yep. Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode.
Alex Judd:If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor? Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode? Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a sequence of never ending improvement.
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Alex Judd:Hey, thank you so much to the Path for Growth team, Kyle Cummings and the crew at PodCircle, and the remarkable leaders that are actively engaged in the path for growth community. Y'all are the people that make this podcast possible. Y'all know this. We're rooting for you. We're praying for you.
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Alex Judd:Let's go. Let's go.