What Is Islam? A Christian Guide to Its Teachings and How to Respond

Show Notes

In this timely episode, Pastors Zack and Josh tackle one of the most discussed worldviews of our generation: Islam. With headlines involving the new mayor of New York City (Zohran Mamdani), immigration debates in Europe and the U.S., conflicts like the recent Operation Epic Fury against Iran, and ongoing cultural shifts, Christians need a clear, biblical understanding of what Islam actually teaches.

The pastors explain:

• The origins of the Quran: Muhammad’s revelations starting in 610 AD, delivered in trances and compiled (not in chronological order) as the final, infallible word of God in Arabic
• Key differences from Christianity: One God (Allah) with no Trinity; Muhammad as the final prophet; Jesus honored only as a prophet, not the Son of God or Savior
• Salvation in Islam: A works-based system (Five Pillars—Shahadah, prayer 5x/day, fasting during Ramadan, giving to the poor, pilgrimage to Mecca) with no assurance, only hope in Allah’s mercy and a weighing of deeds
• How Islam spreads: Historically by conquest and the sword; today through immigration, higher birth rates, charity tied to dawah (invitation to Islam), and the goal of eventual global dominance under Sharia
• Major branches: Folk Islam (most common, syncretized with local beliefs), Sunni (majority), and Shia (dominant in Iran, with unique eschatology involving the hidden 12th Imam)
• Challenges with the Quran: Historical and textual questions, internal contradictions, and misunderstandings of Christian doctrine (e.g., the Trinity as God, Jesus, and Mary)

They address the common claim that “Islam is a religion of peace,” noting that while many cultural Muslims live peacefully, the religion’s foundational goal is conquest and submission of the world to Islamic rule—making it incompatible in key ways with Western ideals like religious liberty and separation of mosque and state.

Importantly, the pastors draw a clear biblical line:

• The state/government has a responsibility to vet immigrants wisely and protect constitutional values.
• Individual Christians and churches must love Muslim neighbors, show hospitality, build relationships, and boldly share the gospel—the greatest act of love.

They highlight real hope: The gospel is advancing among Muslims worldwide (including explosive church growth in Iran), often through dreams, visions, and faithful witness. Stories from the church’s early days at Overland Church illustrate practical ways to engage Muslim neighbors and international students.

This episode equips believers to avoid both naive multiculturalism and fearful alarmism, instead responding with truth, love, and confidence in the sovereignty of God and the power of the risen Christ.

Resources Mentioned:

• A Concise Guide to the Quran and A Concise Guide to the Life of Muhammad by Ayman S. Ibrahim
• The Quran with Christian Commentary (recommended for further study)
• Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus by Nabeel Qureshi (testimony of a former Muslim)

Creators and Guests

JH

Host

Josh Hutchens

What is Wisdom for the Wilderness?

Join Dr. Josh Hutchens, director of Gateway Seminary's Rocky Mountain Campus and pastor at Overland Church in Fort Collins, Colorado, as he explores spiritual faithfulness amid life's challenges and suffering. Through discussions on theological questions and inspiring stories, Wisdom for the Wilderness offers guidance and hope for navigating the complexities of faith in a broken world.

speaker-0: Welcome to Wisdom for the Wilderness, a weekly podcast by the Pastors of Overland Church, where we talk about the Bible, theology, practical things of life. We generally just want to help our people ⁓ understand what's going on in the world and walk wisely in it. And today we're going to be talking about Islam. Islam has been all over the news recently for multiple reasons, somewhat of a hot topic in the United States, especially a hot topic in Britain. what's going on in parts of Europe. We see it definitely in politics right now, the mayor of New York, and he's just doing things that are like just Muslim things ⁓ as the mayor of New York. And it's drawing a lot of critique and question.

speaker-1: And it's been such a huge part of the experience of our generation, in particular since September 11, 2001. Yeah, and there was obviously a lot of Islamic terrorism going on all the way back to the 70s and the 60s and those types of things, but since then, it has just been front and center in our lives as part of the political conversation, current events.

speaker-0: Yeah, you had Muslim terrorists. And if you go to, you know, Minnesota and Somalian ⁓ scandals there, mean, those are Muslims that are doing that. There's obviously the conflict with Iran that we talked about last week, and you've got Muslims there, and Islam being the predominant religion. There was some things with, what was it, the Prince in England, who made some comments about Islam and did some things there. huge conversations about immigration. Immigration is a huge, huge topic. ⁓ You watch places like Virginia politically, where a ton of Muslims have immigrated, and all of sudden you're beginning to see laws change. ⁓

speaker-1: ⁓

speaker-0: some, some Muslims get elected to office who have a very different worldview. And so, ⁓ we want to answer the question today. What is Islam? ⁓ what does it actually teach? It's we can do what 20 minute podcast. sure. what does it teach? And then how should Christians respond? Yeah. And so, ⁓ I think it's really important. I think it's really, really helpful. And I think it's something that our

speaker-1: Right. tiny question.

speaker-0: really all of our people need to have a base understanding of. And so I think one of the first things we have to address ⁓ when we start talking about Islam is what is the Quran? So we obviously have the Bible and we believe the Bible to be the inerrant and fallible Word of God authoritative book. So what is it that Muslims believe the Quran to be?

speaker-1: Yeah, so the Qur'an would be different from the Bible in that the Bible consists of multiple books written over thousands of years by multiple authors, and yet we believe that all of them are inspired by the Holy Spirit. ⁓ And so, you you read it, it's roughly chronological, and it tells the story, has history, has poetry, has all these different things. The Quran is completely different. It is all written by Muhammad, and Muhammad gets the series of revelations starting in the year 610, all right? So, that's according to our calendar. Of course, in the Muslim world, I think that's year one, is how they do things.

speaker-0: things, but in Muhammad, when I about 40 years old, when he started riding.

speaker-1: Right, and he's just a merchant from Saudi Arabia. What today is Saudi Arabia had traveled a decent bit in the Middle East, ⁓ know, caravans and whatnot, ⁓ and they are at that time a pagan society that worships primarily in Mecca the moon god. ⁓ And, of course, this then goes into Islam. That's why their symbol is the moon, because that god is identified as Allah, the one true God, even though they get rid of the idolatrous side of their religion. ⁓ But he believes he gets this revelation, he gets it from the angel Gabriel in a cave above Mecca, and then that just begins this series of revelations ⁓ where there's a community that is gathered that identifies Muhammad as God's prophet. ⁓ And these revelations, they are not written down physically by Muhammad, so the of tradition is he would go into kind of a trance, almost like a seizure, and he would begin spouting these things off, and the people around him would grab, you know, scrap sheets of paper and start writing them down, and then those revelations were then compiled into the Quran. They're not in Quranological order. They're in order from the longest to the shortest, so it's really difficult to read from a Western mindset. In their mind, This is given in Arabic, and so ⁓ only as it is in Arabic is the infallible, inerrant word of God. ⁓ So, in translation, it's diluted. ⁓ It's not the actual word of God, which is why Muslims around the world today will memorize the Qur'an in Arabic. In Malawi, there were Muslim schools, and the boys there though they didn't understand a lick of what they were saying, could not speak Arabic at all, memorized the Quran in Arabic with no idea what it means. that's the origin of it. It's also not exactly the same as Christianity. You know, if we're talking about a certain doctrine, we'll go to Genesis, we'll go to Romans. We're going to want to find something in the Bible to found that upon.

speaker-0: So wild.

speaker-1: most of the major doctrines of Islam aren't actually contained in the Qur'an. They're the traditions about Muhammad and his early teachings that are outside of the Qur'an. So, there are different collections of these. I forget the names. But the Qur'an obviously is the basis, the foundation of everything, and ⁓ seen as the authoritative Word of God. ⁓ The problem is that it actually has errors in it. so, like easily proven errors. Like, one of the most relevant things for us is that Muhammad thought, and this is in the Quran, Muhammad thought that Christians believed the Trinity was God the Father, Jesus, and Mary were the three persons of the Trinity. I it takes like two seconds to prove that that's not what we believe. ⁓ Actually, no Christians ever believed that, and yet he had

speaker-0: Have fun.

speaker-1: details, certain details from his travels about Christianity gets it mixed up. It's in the Quran, and somehow the Quran is supposed to be inerrant, even though it doesn't even understand the basics of Christian theology. So, you know, that's just one example.

speaker-0: Right. it's, it's, know, overall, when he's the things he's teaching about, I mean, it's all over the place, but it talks about moral conduct. Yeah. That would make it similar to the Bible. it, talks about community life. It talks a whole lot about government and governance and the thought process behind governance. And so one of the things that makes Islam different than Christianity is that Islam in the way they think about the Quran, it should rule and dictate all of life. Yeah. Like there, you know, the idea that, that gets spouted here, separation of church and state. We, you know, people think about a private life and a public life. Yeah. Like there, you know, there is not that in Islam. Yes. You know, uh,

speaker-1: absolute.

speaker-0: an Islamic leader, let's say you elect an Islamic city council member by their worldview, they should be ruling according to the Quran. that's a kind of a, you know, it's supposed to inform everything in life. Yes. So, um, Muhammad, uh, you know, writes

speaker-1: Right. That's right.

speaker-0: writes this, mean, well, spouts it out, it gets written down, it gets ordered, it's not in a chronological order, longest to shortest. You know, I asked a scholar one time, the guy at Southern Seminary, ⁓

speaker-1: Abraham. I have his books over here.

speaker-0: So,

speaker-1: We're gonna mess up his name if we don't look at it.

speaker-0: Right. Yeah. Look at it. Let's find out what is what his actual name is. But I sat there and I asked him one time and I said,

speaker-1: Aiman S. Ibrahim. Concise Guide to the Life of Muhammad, a Concise Guide to the Quran, ⁓ really short, short good books. and he's got a lot of other, he like writes a book a day or something.

speaker-0: And he's got So I ask him about, like, if you took classical hermeneutic and the way that we read the Bible, and you use, you know, what are some of those rules? You you let scripture, interpret scripture, context is, is king, you know, you, know, all the different, all the different hermeneutical principles and you, and you apply those to the Quran. Can't, you know, how, does it come across? Who's right? Are the more in our mind, conservative? Muslims or the radical Muslims, the different groups, who's right? And he goes, nobody knows. It's a madman's writings that don't really make a lot of sense. You cannot put them in a systematic theology the same way that we look at the Bible and we can break it down and put it in a systematic categories because it just contradicts itself. It seems it comes across as madman's ramblings. And so when I ask who's applying it correctly, because I wanted to know, who is it? Is it really that this book is written and those that are Sharia law, who's right?

speaker-1: Right. Yeah, and then there's also questions, and he would know a lot more about this, and it's mentioned in this book about the Quran, ⁓ of the textual integrity of the Quran. So, there was, I think, about 100 years after Muhammad, once the kind of empire of Islam is established, there's multiple Qurans, and they destroy all of them except the one authoritative version, and there's questions as to whether or not that has any authenticity at all going back to Muhammad. ⁓ So, you know, there's just a lot of issues there that could be unpacked. But you're right that the revelation that is given to Muhammad is the very core of the faith, and so it's the first step in becoming a Muslim is to recite the Shahadah that ⁓ Allah alone is God and Muhammad is His prophet. So, that's the entire basis of the Muslim.

speaker-0: There are some things that we can say this sums up what Islam believes. Here's some core things. So what you just said, ⁓ there is one God, it is Allah. Absolutely one. So they would reject any notion of a trinity. Muhammad is the final prophet. So there's not prophets after Muhammad, he's the final one. The Quran is the final revelation. I all would believe that there is a coming day of judgment and, ⁓ most would say, I think all would say that Jesus was only a prophet. Wasn't the son of God, isn't the savior, but there is respect for Jesus, but as a prophet. So let's talk about salvation. How do Muslims believe you're saved?

speaker-1: Yep. It's totally different from our conception as evangelical Christians. ⁓ So, we believe that we're in the New Covenant and that we are saved when we believe the gospel and we're born again and the Spirit comes within us and transforms us. There's a moral ⁓ transformation that happens through progressive sanctification, all these things. so, we'll have a question like, are you a genuine Christian? That's a question that that we have because there can be someone who makes a profession of faith and yet does not have that inward transformation, and we would distinguish between a true Christian and a false professor. In Islam, throw all of that out the window. All that matters is the allegiance that you give to Allah and Muhammad. So, in Malawi, when I was serving there,

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: you know, we would do, you know, compassion ministries as an organization, and we would, you know, be concerned that we didn't want to produce false professions of faith because we gave someone medicine, or we gave them food, or something like that. That's a conversation we're having. The Muslims, on the other hand, funded by the UAE, Saudi Arabia, funded by governments, you know, this is We have USAID, or we used to, trying to promote American values around the world, but separated from Christian missions. For them, it's all the same. It's Muslim missions and international relief, all one package. So, these, you know, representatives would come into a village, they'd hand out a bunch of corn or whatever, medical care, dig a well, and then they would say, don't you want to become a Muslim? ⁓ yeah, we want to become a Muslim. If it means we're getting things like this, we want to become a Muslim. So, repeat the Shahadah after us, you know, that Allah alone is God and Muhammad is His prophet. Now you're a Muslim, all right? And they have no concern as to whether or not that person is eternally transformed. They're a Muslim now. And because then ⁓ Islam has a works-based understanding of salvation, Now it's up to you if you're going to pray five times a day, you're going to do all these righteous works, and how you're going to earn your way into heaven or not, and at the end of the day, you have no assurance of salvation because it's totally up to you having greater level of righteousness than you do sinfulness.

speaker-0: Right. And when you say righteousness and sinfulness, you cannot weigh that on a moral scale that's informed by the Bible. Right. Yeah. Right. So it's their own morality as Muhammad saw it. So there's a level of, you know, you're submitting to Allah and Muhammad and it's obedience. And obedience does look like prayer, praying five times a day. It's huge, right? Doing the different prayers and the more you do those things, the more righteous you are. ⁓ Fasting. Yes. During the And that fasting is sun up to sundown. So you can eat after.

speaker-1: of Ramadan. you watch March Madness? It was during Ramadan this year. And so a lot of the Muslim players would be on the sideline like after six o'clock or whatever, they start downing applesauce and stuff because they hadn't eaten all day and they're in a game.

speaker-0: Right? Yep. So fasting, giving, and I don't even know what that looks like.

speaker-1: It looks simply like just giving to beggars. ⁓ And so, in Blantyre, in Malawi, ⁓ the Muslim primary areas would have more beggars there than anywhere else. Why? Because what do Muslims do? Part of their religion, just give this person, you know, five quacha, give this person ten quacha. And so, the beggars were attracted to that. And they don't have any concerns like we would talk about when helping hurts.

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: concerned about that. It's just what it does for me in this righteous

speaker-0: act. And then, then pilgrimage to Mecca, which most Muslims throughout history have not been able to do. And it's those things and at judgment, the deeds are weighed and there is no assurance, only hope in Allah's mercy. You stand on your own record. Now, obviously, there's things around jihad and and things that you can do to secure it that some Muslims believe. don't know if it's universally ⁓ believed or not. So that's what they believe. Then you have to ask the question, okay, how is Islam to be spread? Like we believe it in proclaiming the gospel and evangelizing the loss. We believe in evangelism. What do they believe?

speaker-1: ⁓ by any means necessary. That's essentially what they believe. So, ⁓ you know, in the early era of Islam, you're right in pointing out, Muhammad is essentially a kind of warlord in Arabia. He establishes the dominance of Islam by invading cities, by battles, by conquering, and then his successors ⁓ further that. And so, You know, within a hundred years of Muhammad, they've conquered the entire Middle East, they've conquered all of North Africa, they've conquered Spain, and so, you know, they are, as they're conquering, then people are being forced to either become Muslim or to be second-class citizens who have to pay a tax. in order to keep their Christian or Jewish faith. ⁓ And so, that was the primary way it was spread today. ⁓ You know, I described how they use charity to spread Islam, or ⁓ even immigration, and ⁓ they're thinking they're going to take over the entire world. That's the eschatology of Islam. Islam will be victorious Islam will dominate the entire globe. All people will become Muslim, and ⁓ basically any means necessary to get Muslims into places that are not Islamic and turn it Islamic is on the table.

speaker-0: Right. And, and a lot of it does have to do with having babies. Yeah. You know, can move, move to places and then have more babies than they have. You will eventually take it over. man, our post-modern Christian world, especially if you just like look at Europe over the past 30 or 40 years, right? Where children are not a blessing from the Lord and you should not have children. So when you have falling birth rates and immigrate mass immigration, it's actually easy to take over.

speaker-1: That's right. That's right.

speaker-0: Yes. A place it only takes like 20 or 30 years and you out produce them and then you can, you can take over. So that's part of the spread of Islam. And because religion and governance are connected, you know, you're, going in there to make it an Islamic country.

speaker-1: That's right. And they're very patient. Very patient. have the... ⁓ Islam and people from the Middle East have a much longer memory than we in the West do. So, mean, there's blood feuds that go back 500 years or something, and it's like yesterday to them. So, to them, they are willing to kind of do a...

speaker-0: Yours is short.

speaker-1: Islam one step further, knowing the next generation is going to take it another step, and the next generation is going to take it another step. They're very, very patient. They have much more, you know, long-term goals than we would.

speaker-0: then you do have different sects of Islam and some of them would believe in coercion, they believe in the use of force, they believe in the killing of the infidel. So let's go in and let's now break down what are the major sects of Islam?

speaker-1: Yeah, so I think, you know, this one often gets left off, and I think it's the most important one in a lot of ways, is folk Islam. So, the fact is that the majority of Muslims around the world are not what we would call, if they were Christians, Orthodox. They are Muslim in terms of culture, and that has been syncretized with their local religions, ⁓ and so, you know, you would ask them, you know, what are the five periods pillars of Islam, those things that you're supposed to…they wouldn't know, or they'd get them mixed up. ⁓ And so, ⁓ Isaac, my friend in Malawi, ⁓ he loved to always say, the greatest witch doctors in Malawi are the Muslim imams ⁓ because ⁓ they have no problem with the syncretism that's going on. And so, They'll pray five times a day, but they also do all kinds of magic and involved with the spirits and that kind of thing. ⁓ if you're going to Indonesia or you're going to, you know, a Muslim country, the greatest likelihood is you're going to meet someone who is Islamic in terms of culture, but very little understanding of what that means and just have folk beliefs. So, I remember meeting a couple of Muslim boys

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: in Malawi, they asked me for money. They had a hat on, the Muslim hat, I don't remember what it's called, so I knew they were Muslim. I said, what do need money for? They wanted to go buy beer. I said, you're Muslim, you don't drink, because Muslims don't drink. They're like, ⁓ we're not that kind of Muslims. ⁓ That's funny. so, you know, folk Islam would be the biggest, and then the other two kind of orthodox, we would call them maybe denominations or branches in Christianity. is Sunni Islam and Shiite or Shia Islam, and this goes back to the very first generation after Muhammad. So, Muhammad died, which—pause for a second to recognize— He died. He died. And, you we're just a few weeks out from Easter, and the absolute unique claim of Christianity is that Jesus is alive.

speaker-0: He rose from the dead. could not defeat him.

speaker-1: That's right. So, after Muhammad dies, the question is, who's going to be his successor? And there are two options that kind of split the Muslim community actually into a real civil war ⁓ with one another. So, you have ⁓ Abu Bakr, who was Muhammad's father-in-law and like best buddy ⁓ and really like focused on the, you know, really devout. and most Muslims follow him, and then you had Ali, who had married Muhammad's ⁓ daughter Fatima, so he's Muhammad's son-in-law, producing the actual bloodline heirs of Muhammad. And so, you have others who say, no, it's got to stay in the bloodline, and they follow Ali. And so, they fight, ultimately, ⁓ Sunni Islam, which follows Abu Bakr, becomes the dominant version of Islam, invades the Middle East, invades North Africa, invades Europe. ⁓ That would be the dominant side of things, ⁓ and kind of considered like the main version of Islam. Saudi Arabia, ⁓ they're going to be Sunni. Most of Egypt, they're Sunni. But then you still have this minority that follows Shia Islam, and ⁓ Ali, and from Ali, you know, they go to Iraq and Iran, so, you know, part of Iraq is Shia. Iran is run by Shia Islam, so it's unique ⁓ in the Middle East. They believe that from Ali there are 12 caliphs that follow ⁓ Muhammad, and these are all in the bloodline. of Muhammad, they take on essentially the mantle of Muhammad as infallible prophets that follow in Muhammad's line. And then the last one, the twelfth one, Muhammad ibn Hasan lives from 869 to 941, and as they're getting persecuted by the Sunnis, they believe this guy just disappears. He is hidden by Allah from the persecution and he's still alive, hidden away somewhere by Allah, and the hope in the end of the Shia Muslims is they're going to create the conditions in the world in which this final caliph, the 12th one, is going to return and bring about a type of millennial reign on earth where everything's going to be great, Islam's going to rule the world, ⁓ and then the final judgment is going to come. And so, you know, when we're talking about the Iranian regime, that's their eschatology. That's what they think is going to happen. And they're playing an intricate part in bringing about those end time events in the world. So, that's the kind of 10,000 feet overview of, or maybe 30,000 feet.

speaker-0: But right overview. So, ⁓ it's diverse, a lot of different thoughts. even within those different sects, you have people, ⁓ that take it more seriously and operate in people who are Muslim by name only and not practice. Like there's still, there's a spectrum. So it's not like we would say, you know, you've got a progressive liberal and a moderate. and a conservative necessarily. Like you could put, you could put that scale in each one of them. Yeah. Not, not just, these are the three, three kinds. And so, ⁓ Recently, someone, I believe, you know, there's a quote ⁓ by the Prince in England who's saying, you know, Islam is a peaceful religion. It's something you hear often. Islam is a peaceful religion. Is Islam a peaceful religion?

speaker-1: So, you know, go back to September 11th, you know, we had prayer services and things where George W. involved Muslims, wanted to talk about how Islam is a religion of peace, the actual root of the word Islam has peace in it. And if you just want to look at the people who want to maintain it primarily as a cultural thing, you know, your Muslim doctor or whoever's in your community, then sure, yeah, but that's not the majority of Islam. All you want to look at the UAE, you want to look at, you know, at ⁓ Saudi Arabia today. ⁓ Well, I mean, those kind of wealthy Gulf states that are, you know, they have their Islam as a cultural tradition.

speaker-0: Pakistan. You can just go and go and go.

speaker-1: but there's a lot of things that are not really fanatically religious in their personal life. I know that in terms of George W. Bush, he needed those countries in order to the war on terror, and so he was speaking to them. But the reality is that Islam is fundamentally a religion of conquest.

speaker-0: Right. you personally. That's Right.

speaker-1: And the whole goal of Islam, no matter the branch, is to take over the entire world and rule the entire world under the Quran. And so, you know, the question is, as we are a country that has fundamentally part of our constitution, religious liberty, how do we operate in a religion

speaker-0: Right, the end.

speaker-1: with a religion that has a fundamentally different outlook on the world. You know, your local mosque where they're just kind of doing the cultural Islam is not going to be a threat to us as a nation, but you can't just close your eyes to the fact that there are a lot of Muslims that are coming in, founding mosques that are fundamentally ⁓ places of treason against the very Republic that has invited them in. ⁓ And so, that's problematic. And so, we have to ask the question of how do we handle a worldview coming in that cannot operate within the boundaries of the worldview that this country has founded on?

speaker-0: Right? So when we say that Islam and often it gets said radical Islam, but I would just say Islam is not compatible with Western thought. That's what we're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Right. We're saying that they're, they're not coming into play in the sandbox. They're not coming in to, to, to, be friends. They're coming in to take over. that mean obviously there are tons of people who come to this country. They just want a better life. Yeah. They just want to go to, they just, they just want to get a. You know, ⁓ a degree, they know that a lot of them, they'll go back to ⁓ wherever it is they're from, to Lebanon or wherever, and they want to go be good doctors there. So not putting a blanket statement to say every Muslim who comes here is seeking to do that. But there are Muslims who are coming to the U S with the idea of conquest. Yes. Yeah.

speaker-1: And, you know, this just gets to the stupidity of the postmodern way of thinking that has dominated America for the last 30 or 40 years that, you we're just supposed to coexist, you know, put your bumper sticker on, coexist, because really all religions are different paths to the same top of the mountain, and we're all just teaching to, you know, love your neighbor as yourself in different ways. No, we're not. Like, that is fundamentally not true if you look at the basic teachings of Islam. And so, ⁓ you know, you have to ask the question, like, can we invite ⁓ Muslims in without expecting them to actually do the things they believe? ⁓ And that's not ⁓ an issue about religious liberty. That's an issue about ⁓ a political issue, right? You know, we divide things that way. They don't divide things that way, but we have to be able to say if there is a mosque in our city that is teaching the overthrow of the American government and the establishment of an Islamic Republic of America, then that's outside of the bounds of religious liberty in the same way that if you have some sort of nut in the mountains,

speaker-0: Elisha Christian doing it as well. is outside of the bounds of religious.

speaker-1: Yes, that's right.

speaker-0: obviously challenges to know what, what's taking place inside churches and, know, it's some of that's hard to know what's going on behind, ⁓ closed doors, but I mean, that's what we cannot accept and the people, know, when you see groups like queers for Palestine or, whatever, mean, you, you couldn't be further from the truth. Like you try to go to Palestine and be queer and see how that works for you. Yeah.

speaker-1: But in their worldview, the only bad guy is the white man. He colonized the entire world, imperialism and whatnot, and therefore everybody who is ever oppressed is the good guys and we're all on the same side. Know that you're not, and you're about to wake up one day and realize, wait!

speaker-0: man who has Oppressed. Right. ⁓ wait.

speaker-1: You were just not oppressing me because you didn't have the technological capability and wherewithal to do it yet. But now that you can, you're going to.

speaker-0: Right. Yeah, we should probably do a podcast on intersectionality. Yeah. And some of the critical race theories and how it bleeds over into this moment that we in. Yeah. But that's lot of it. here's the, what we got to get to is like, how does the Christian respond? Because there is in popular culture right now, an alarmist kind of tone. And man, it doesn't matter what the thing is. That's how media funds the mechanism is by alarmism, right? So I don't think we should be there. I don't think we should be at the spot of like, man, if we don't do something right now, world's going to fall apart. But at the same time, I don't think we should be so naive to go, nothing's going to happen. So what should, as Christians, what should we do?

speaker-1: I mean, this gets back to our episode on immigration, doesn't it? It does. Where there's a difference between the responsibility of the state and the responsibility of each of us in our personal walk with Christ. And so, ⁓ in terms of the state, the state should have ⁓ incredible, ⁓ be incredibly careful about who they allow inside this country and how they vet those people and how they determine who gets the visa and who doesn't get the visa. They have to agree to our values, to our constitution, and we have to make sure that they're not just, you know, putting their fingers behind their back and...

speaker-0: crossing their fingers, Which some people believe absolutely nothing wrong with. do, they're, they're, lying, bearing false witness isn't part of their morality.

speaker-1: Yeah, well, it doesn't matter if you lie to an infidel because they're an infidel. So, you know, that's fine. ⁓ And so, that's the state side of things. Personally, as Christians and as churches, our responsibility is very clear to share the gospel and to pray for salvation and for the advance of the gospel around the world through its proclamation and baptizing and planting churches.

speaker-0: making disciples and make

speaker-1: team disciples. And so, you know, if you have a Muslim neighbor, you know, you may politically think that they shouldn't be allowed to be there, and that's one thing when you vote. But as being a neighbor, you ought to love them and share the gospel with them. And that's the greatest thing you can do in loving them, is share the gospel.

speaker-0: love your neighbor as yourself. You're a light in a dark world to them and you become a friend to them. so, and we have several stories in the early planting of, of Overland, ⁓ pre 2020 pre COVID. ⁓ it was not uncommon to have someone who was culturally Muslim sitting in a worship service. had 20 something international students, five to 10 of those were probably Muslim a lot from Iran. ⁓ Oddly enough, they're Iranian. And so we had a lot of gospel conversations and they would be what we would, we would consider like they were college students. They weren't following the Quran. There were some others, however, at our neighborhood school and some of the women, Jennifer really spent a lot of time with, and I mean, you're talking about people who are wearing the hijab only showing their face. Somalian, Lebanon, some of those Middle Eastern countries, and they would end up in our home. And Jennifer would have them over for tea. you know, it would be funny because as soon as they'd walk in our home, they'd take off their hijab and they would, you know, they would talk to her and she got invited to their homes. And she would get to go in and she earnestly prayed for them and shared the gospel with them. And she still gets messages ⁓ on, you know, whatever international app that they would use of those people reaching back out to her because she was to them, like they saw Christianity as American culture. This is a Christian culture, just like you would think that's a Muslim culture. So they would see the debauchery, the, know, the hypocriticalism. And then they would see Jennifer and go, ⁓ This is someone who actually believes what this religious book, the Bible says, and who took the effort to explain it to them and talk to them and say, no, this is what Christianity actually believes. And we actually believe that's wrong. And so as Christians, we're missionaries. We live as lights in a dark world. We live as the people who proclaim the gospel to the lost. you know, we have to be a people that trust in

speaker-1: Right. Right.

speaker-0: the power of God for salvation. We have to. And man, there are stories about that happen that people who, you know, there's one popular book called Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus. You'll see there are Muslims who are being brought to Christ. We are seeing Muslim version. It takes a long time. Often it takes something very supernatural. I mean, it's the Lord just like making it very clear. You need to do this.

speaker-1: Yes, that's right.

speaker-0: and he's drawing them unto himself. So there is hope in the power of the gospel.

speaker-1: Yeah, you know, just to highlight a couple of things from what you just said, hospitality is a huge value in their cultures. And so, just to show that hospitality opens the door for conversations. And Muslims are people who are spiritual, and so it's not awkward to talk to them about, you know, tell me about Islam. I'll tell you about Christianity. Those are normal conversations. It's not like talking to a secular person who doesn't want to talk about religion. They want to talk about religion. And then, like you're saying, the Lord is just doing an incredible work around the world among Muslims in the midst of incredible persecution. And so, we just got word last week ⁓ from one of our missionaries. I won't say where or any details, but young woman came to Christ, and you can just see especially how for women, Islam is so empty and unsatisfying. It is for everybody, especially for women. That's right. And so, to see this young woman coming to faith in Christ, even though she's going to face incredible persecution from her family, ⁓ is just a beautiful and incredible thing, and the Lord's doing it all around the world right

speaker-0: press. We've talked a lot about Iran. The Christian church in Iran has been growing. It's one of the fastest growing places in the world where Christianity is growing. Now, don't get me wrong. It's a small number, but it is having a multiplying effect of people coming to Christ. So we have to be people that believe in the power of the gospel for salvation. Any closing words of wisdom?

speaker-1: That's right. Amen. I'd say, you know, study up on Islam and ⁓ read the Quran for yourself. There's a copy of the Quran. It's called the Quran with Christian Commentary, and so it has the text, but it also is kind of like a study Bible, has comments to help Christians understand. And so, that would be what I would recommend to learn more about Islam.

speaker-0: Yeah. You know, here would be mine and it would be trust in the sovereignty of God. know, so, so anytime as Christians, we look in the world and we go, man, this is winning out or this is winning out. Yeah. Are secularism is winning the day or Islam's winning the day trust in the plan of God. Amen. And remember the part of the plan and you trust in his sovereignty is the proclamation, the holding of the gospel. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us for wisdom for the wilderness. If you ever have any questions, can email us at wisdom at overlandchurch.org. We really want to help you walk wise in the world. Listen, go and proclaim the gospel, go to church. We'll see you next week. Be blessed.