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“Authority isn’t about control — it’s about trust.”
“The point of parenting is not to make my life easy — the point of parenting is to develop another person.”
“We’re not trying to raise nice men. We’re trying to raise good men — the kind who run into the burning building, not film it for likes.”
Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.
when we as adults often fail to meet our own
expectations with respect to that
and yet we're holding these children to this
it's insane
it is insane that that's one of Ryan's governing
self governing principles
I will not require better behavior from an adult
myself included than I
I will not require better behavior from a child
than I will require from an adult
hello welcome back to raising Men
today
we're exploring what it really means to raise boys
who are emotionally safe and connected
especially when they come from hard places
or carry hidden trauma my guest is Ryan North
he's the co founder of One Big Happy Home
he's a host of their podcast
and a leading voice in trauma informed parenting Ryan
thanks for joining me and welcome to the podcast
hey thanks for having me on
it's good to be with you
it's an absolute pleasure Brian
before we talk about strategies
can you just share what first LED you into this field
yeah so I'll
I'll try to do like
the one minute answer for a 30 minute story
but um
I don't
I don't remember a time in my life
when I wasn't fascinated by people's motivation
I I remember as a child
going to sporting events
and wondering why people dressed the way they did
and so I I think because my
my mind's kind of wired for why anything in
in the realm of psychology was always
gonna be an option and so a lot
a lot of trauma informed care falls under the
the umbrella of developmental psychology
and so um
that that's sort of the way my mind's wired
but then the way I am wired collided with my reality
because my wife and I are um
parents to six children four of those six
adopted from the child welfare system in Texas
and so trying to understand them in ways
that we could help them
and recognizing that that raising kids
not born to you
is different than raising kids born to you
and trying to get all of the help
and the equipping that we got
and then we knew somebody who said look
once your life's 55% settled and 45% chaotic
you're in a place where you can help somebody else
and so we kind of took that to heart
and once things started to settle
just a little bit at the house
we just educated equipped and
and started speaking and writing and teaching on
on on trauma informed care
to help adults create spaces where children feel safe
welcome and loved
I love that explain
so how would you explain why
this approach matters to every parent
raising boys
not just people who are dealing with sort of
the unique situations that you're dealing with
yeah so that
that is a great question because
you know at our house
like I said four of our six kids
were adopted from the child welfare system and
and we made the decision early on
in our parenting
that we were gonna parent everybody the same way
and it wasn't some deep
philosophical issue rooted in our enormous intellect
it was it's just too much to keep up with
having two different parenting styles
and so what
what we Learned in in the midst of all of that
because because in the realm of trauma
informed care and connection based parenting
what
one of the foundational principles in all of that is
is having the supremacy of the relationship be
obviously the thing that you're driving for
a lot of parents want compliance from their children
but this
this methodology talks about building the connection
and working on the relationship
one of the things we have to guard against is
people say well
that just sounds like permissive parenting
but there's a lot of data on having a permissive
parents really bad for your kids
and so we have to navigate that saying look
there there's a lot of nurture
but there's an equal amount of structure
and what we found is that's just been a really
really great recipe for raising kids who are connected
now the real value in that is
is when there is trouble in their life
if when they're struggling with something
they'll come to you rather than hide it from you
and we found
as all of my kids are teens or elders or older
I have two in their 20s and four in their teens
and and I've discovered that that connection first idea
um is
is raising the kind of people that we want to
release as adults into the world
yeah and I think that notion
I think it gets maligned a little bit
because it can also be a cop out right
it could be a oh well
I'm just gonna let my kids do whatever I want
because it's more important that we have a connection
than I ever discipline them
but it it's
it's actually not the case that it's way easier
and it takes way less work to
to give the connection that primacy
you actually have to do a lot of hard work
to create the boundaries that
you know create the edges of the sandbox
yeah so that
so that because because you can't just
just whip them into shape
they have to be able to find the boundaries themselves
and test them and still not exceed
yeah so
that's one
things
I tell parents of middle schoolers and teens a lot is
is part of them figuring out who they are
and how they fit into this world
and finding out what they're good at
is through the process of pushing boundaries
and so that's a natural part of human development
is pushing boundaries
we just don't like it when we're the recipient
of said boundaries being pushed right uh
but but
one of the things that I had to reconcile a long time
ago is that
is that
the point of parenting is not to make my life easy
the point of parenting is to develop another person and
and so when
when you kind of reframe your thinking like that you
you will understand that
when you're operating in the best interest of somebody
yes is a good word and no is a good word too
you know um
we try this
our rule in our house is we say yes when we can
we say yes when we can and no if we have to
and so and so
that's also eliminated trying to be a parent
who's
trying to make their life as convenient as possible
because sometimes saying yes isn't
isn't the easiest thing to do
but if unless I have a good reason
that is in the interest of your development
I try really hard not to say no
I have found that to be such
I surprisingly difficult yeah
and I try to do that as well
and but my reflex is
when my boy comes to me and ask me for something
my reflex is almost always to say no
that is absolutely right
and then we wonder why the toddler
one of your 18 to 22 year old
month old child says no to you a lot
well you've
you've mentioned it right into them
yeah
yeah it
it's it's such a tough thing
and I had to put in I had to put a rule to myself
exactly the same kind of thing
I had to assign a rule that said no
I always say yes
and then I need to have a good reason to say yeah and
and one of the other ways we
we look at that Sean
is is we say
does saying yes allow us to build
a deeper and stronger connection with the child
now now again
one of the ways that
that I illustrate this is if you have a baby
I don't know if you remember having babies
but you likely swaddle them right
and sometimes you call those baby burritos
and then so you make your little baby burrito and
and one of the reasons that
unless there's an underlying medical issue
the child's ill or has some sort of medical condition
swaddling a baby will invariably cause them to settle
almost immediately because
it illustrates the principle of what the child needs
and that is that the child needs the security
of being held tight by the blanket
but also simultaneously
the nurture of being held tight by the blanket
and so
we now realize that kids need equal levels of nurture
and structure to develop optimally
and and what that typically looks like
you know in the simplest form is yes represents nurture
and no represents structure
so yeah
my kids hear no and
but they only hear it no that
you know I lie to you
I try to make it that they only hear it when
no is in their best interest
the aspiration yeah
yeah I mean
obviously sometimes I just
you know it's 9:30 at night
and I just wanna watch the hockey game
you know you can kind of
that's how it went last night but
I I
I like that metaphor with the swaddling because I found
you know my
my experience is that is that giving them
reinforcing that connection
is what allows them to feel comfortable
exploring the world and pushing the boundaries
and so it's it's like when they're a baby
they need to feel I mean
they need to be really really tightly wound
and then they can feel free to look around
instead of complaining and crying and being worried and
and then
that just continues all the way until they're adults
where they need to be able to ground themselves
in that connection so that they can feel comfortable
doing what it is they want to do
and expressing their yeah
so attachment
researchers talk about needing a secure base right
and so that that
that's a trust based issue
and once the children
come to realize that you are a trusted
adult in their lives they can confide in you
and then they having that secure base
actually is what allows them to explore the world
and so you know
we've over the years
had some criticism from some
friends and family members
about the way we've parented our children
particularly not using what what
we would just call traditional family methods
with the bio kiddos
but I will tell you today that my 17 year old daughter
she works at a fast food restaurant
and gets home at about 11:30 at night from her shift
when on the nights that she works
wow and she comes home
she puts her food that she's taken for her dinner
in the fridge
she walks into our room kicks her shoes off
and climbs into the bed between me and my wife
and just tells us about her day
and then she goes and eats her dinner
and I love that and and
and I and I wouldn't trade that for anything right
cause I know a lot of people who
their complaint is all my kids don't speak to me
my 17 year olds always in her room
and they don't let me in and I'm like
well the time
the time for creating that
that relationship
where they trust you and let you into the universe
is not when they're sixteen
so when they're 16 months or younger
you know what I mean and so
we have now been doing this for long enough
and raise enough kids that
that I think we're now seeing proof of concept in in
in that as they as they turn 21 today
my oldest daughter my 23 year old son
as they go off to school as they move out of the house
and have their own apartments
and their own jobs and pay their bills
and all the things that that she
sort of base level
adult functionality for me to see them
and then you know
the struggles that some of them had early on and some
the predictions that the psychologists
made about their lives you know
our oldest son we
we were told um
he was almost 4 when he was placed with us
and we were told in a pre placement meeting that he
we need to know what we're signing up for
because he'll never
ever have the be able to live on his own
he'll never be able to live independently
he's gonna live um
he's gonna have to live with you and
and I guess I was young enough and brazen enough
and I just looked at my wife and I said
challenge accepted but
but today he's 23 years old
he lives in his own apartment
he has a car that he paid for
he has a job which he has been promoted several times
the last few years um
he now is an operations director for a company that um
I don't know can I mention brands on here Sean
yeah so
so he works for a company that owns multiple UPS stores
and he's at 23
the operations director of all of their stores
that's incredible yeah
and that's the kid who I was told 19 years ago
would never be able to live outside of my
house and so I
I would I would make a strong argument the
the connection first um
trying to develop him for his good
and preparing him as somebody
who can function as an independent
contributing member of society
cause that's kind of our overarching theme here
I I
at the end of the story that's
that's yeah
so I think we're seeing
we're living sort of proof of concept now
what are the lessons that we can take from
you know you've dealt with kids that have really
really severe emotional wounds and traumas
I feel like I don't have to deal with that but
but my kid has much smaller traumas
and I suspect that
the strategies and tactics
and techniques that I need
in order to deal with those smaller traumas
are just miniature versions
of the things that you deal with
um in
in in a much bigger scale
yeah so there are a lot of things that I think we
there's a lot of things that
I know that we believe in error about children
I'll give you a couple of examples
um sometimes when I'm speaking at an event
I like to play this game with the audience
to prove that we already have this
built in view of how we view children
and I'll say I'm gonna start a sentence
and I need you to complete it
and I'll say children should be seen
and then the crowd yells back and not heard
I brought you into this world
they yell back and I take you out you
you could have completed all of those
and I have several of those that I do well
one of those
those are all horrible ways to look at children
one of the things um
that I think we do in error about
about parenting is we think that go big or go home is
is a great parenting strategy
it's not uh
because if you have to employ go big or go home
you invariably gonna then do the next step
which is
leverage their pain points to get them to comply
and that is literally the antithesis
of how to build a good relationship with a human being
uh we also believe that children are resilient
and I would say that children have the
human beings have the capacity for resilience and
and that in order to be resilient
you actually need to be connected to somebody
who cares deeply about you and
and helps you in your in your interest
because once we believe that children are resilient
we tend to ignore the fact that children are fragile
and and so
now
that kind of brings it into realm of general parenting
not just trauma informed parenting
because the world's a hard place right
being a child today I would argue
is the hardest it's been being a child for a long
long time um
I'm not gonna discount what it was like
being a kid
at the beginning of the industrial revolution
when 8 year olds were in coal mines and not do that
right but certainly in our lifetime
it seems like it's way
I would argue that the post World War 1
it's the hardest version of the world to be a child
and sometimes
we parent children the way we were parented
and I don't know how old you are
I was born in 75
but I would certainly suggest that the parenting
strategies of the mid 70s
and mid 80s are not effective at all today
cause my parents didn't have to deal with anything
I have to deal with today
right the new the new one AI chatbots as
as boyfriends right
I mean I read something this morning
that 31% of teenagers say
they'd rather be in a relationship with a chatbot
than with an actual human
that's terrifying and it also makes perfect sense
it's terrifying
it makes perfect sense because the chatbot will never
I mean just blow smoke doesn't disagree with you
it's just thrilled
it just reinforce everything you want to believe
yeah and so I can see the appeal of that
but but 31
full third of teenagers
surveyed said they'd rather have an AI
significant other than a human one
well that is if you don't think that's terrifying um
I can share my email
and we can jump on a call and unpack why
that's horribly terrifying
and some of the reasons it's terrifying is
when you look at the research connected to anxiety
and depression
related to screen usage particularly amongst girls
now this phenomenon of the AI
companion is overwhelmingly girls with AI
robots than with uh
with AI boyfriends over boys with AI girlfriends right
and so so when we
we we
we look at that
and so now they're more in the screen thing
and when you look at um
you know one of the great resources for this is
Jonathan Haidt's book The Anxious Generation
cause he talks about a lot of the research
and there's a lot of charts and graphs in it but
but the enormous increase
the exponential increase in anxiety depression
self harm
and suicide amongst teenage girls is astounding
well well
I my parents didn't have to counter the influence
of a computer telling me what to do
and that it's okay to eat batteries or whatever
you know a lot of these things are coming out now right
and so what we have to understand is that
the world is a difficult place
and we have to understand that
this generation of children lives in the AI world
they live in the social media world
they live in a post pandemic world
when we talk about complex developmental trauma we
we do add screens and and
and post pandemic
because that changed how they relate to people
and so to say that that we live in a trauma free
world would be rather foolish
and to say that there's a single human being
that has not experienced some level of adversity
and sometimes we use the words
trauma and adversity interchangeably
cause trauma scares people
and it's also an easy one for them dismiss
cause they said well
you know my child was born to me
everything's fine but the reality of the world is
is these kids are are getting bullied online
in person
um they feel alone
and isolated in ways that generations haven't before
and so it's now more important than ever
for every single parent to understand connection first
parenting principles
while also understanding that we're not
playing the permissive game
you know you're the child's parent
not their friend
don't don't try to be their friend
be their parent you can be their friend when they're 25
but don't be their parent when they're 15
don't be their friend when they're 15
you're just their parent
you know I
we you talked a lot earlier you
you mentioned about kind of
the traditional discipline that you and I grew up with
right which is really focused on control
and you you
essentially postulated a different model
that focuses on connection
instead but I can imagine
that people who might be resistant to that
might feel that they were losing authority
what do you have to say about that
um do you have enough time
ha ha we got all the time
alright so uh
I would say a couple things about that
if you constantly have to be reminding your children
that you're in charge
then they know what you suspect you're not in charge
and and
and
and people who have experienced adversity
need predictability and stability right
anything that's not predictable or unstable
causes them to to dysregulate
well children
and whether they come from adversity
or come from the perfect childhood
they still need to feel like somebody's in charge
and so my home is not a consequence free environment
my home is not one where lessons aren't reinforced
but it's also one where those lessons are explained
that they're for the benefit of the children
I'll give an example um
we have we have some pretty hard rules
around screen usage in our home
including that um
past 10 o'clock in the evening
and even with the teenagers
past 10 o'clock in the evening
the only screens that are permitted in our home are
big television screens so
so phones and and
and tablets and laptops go night
night at 10 o'clock at our house
unless you have a paper due or whatever
obviously we're reasonable people
yeah and so
and so our son who um
because of his particular trauma set and in some of the
some of the ways that that has impacted his
his brain um
is really really prone to addictive behaviour
if he likes something he will um
he will want it all of the
time and
and the biggest villains in his life are sugar
and screens and
and so and so I have to tell him look
it's 10:00 we need to um
we need to put our phones away
and he'll go why
now I will tell you
the part of connected parenting
particularly the older the children get
but we did this pretty pretty early on with them
is they are entitled to to understand
why they're being required to do something
now my parents would never
ever agree with that principle that
that you should explain yourself to a child
but I want the child to understand
our reasoning behind it
and so our son's been struggling
and he also struggles with math
and I said to him look
the reason that you keep engaging that phone is
over time
lessening your ability to concentrate
and also lessening your ability to think creatively
there's there's studies on this
now these aren't my opinions right
they found that the
teenage boys
that play an excessive amount of video games
and to lose their ability to be problem solvers
and they become and they're less intelligent over time
and so I said look
I don't want you to struggle with math
but even more than that
I want you to be successful one day I
I want you to have the kind of job you want
I want you to be good at that job
I don't want you to be beholden
to the fact that that you can't think for yourself
because you could not put your phone down
and as a result of that I'm gonna need you to give me
your phone to me at 10 o'clock at night
didn't like it um
he thinks I'm ridiculous because you know
teenage boys have that privilege of thinking
their dads are ridiculous
I know I did I guess
you probably thought your old man was
ridiculous when you were 17 but
but I still
very calmly last night had to explain that to him
because um
at midnight
as I was making sure the house was all shut down
before we turned our light out
I discovered he was just downstairs on his phone
and I'm like no dude
and he's like I don't see what the big deal is
and I explained to him for like the hundredth time
this is what it's doing to your brain
and I'm trying to help you here
and you can be mad at me if you want to
that's your call but I really hope you won't
because I'm not interested in raising um
I'm not interested
in being a contributing factor to an adult
who has no capacity for personal growth and success
you know do you know Jimmy Carr is the British comedian
I do I do very
very funny yeah
I I really like have you heard
I saw him in an interview
this wasn't what wasn't part of
his stand up
I think he was on the diary of a CEO podcast and
and he said um
he said
here's the thing you need to understand about parenting
anybody can say yes but
but if you're saying yes to what kids want
then you're saying yes to ice cream
video games and staying up all night
but what you need to say yes to is what they need
doing their homework eating their vegetables
and doing chores around the house
he said
because if you keep saying yes to what they want
you're mortgaging their future
and this is what he said
if you keep feeding kids video games and ice cream
and letting them stay up all more hours of the night
in the future you will have fat
lazy stupid people
but if you make them eat their vegetables
make them do their homework
and teach them how to do chores around the house
in the future you will have raised intellectual
intelligent responsible adults
and so that's the real battle you have to fight
are you trying to have compliance in the moment
or you trying to raise a successful human being
and I think that's where we
we we get lost
because what's shifted over time is
we see more and more in parenting
permissive parenting
is kind of the sexy version of parenting now
particularly in the social media age where
you know you go through TikTok and every 4th video is a
mom and her daughter doing a dance together
cause they're friends right
and so yeah
but but
you know when we were kids
compliance was was brought by threat and coercion
now compliance is brought by
by just saying yes constantly
well giving somebody what they want all of the time
will not do anything they
they won't like you more they
they won't be happier
um yeah
you know you can't always get what you want
like Mick Jagger said
and you certainly shouldn't either
yeah there
you're not mature
enough to know what you should be wanting
and it's your job as the parent to
get them to learn that lesson
you know
and you're not gonna learn that lesson by being over
the I never said no to ice cream when I was 10
I rarely eat ice cream now
because my doctor told me I have to stop
high amounts of sugar intake
right
you know I love this story that you told about
about your son and the phone at midnight um
I I would have absolutely flipped out
in that circumstance
I don't get very angry very quickly very often
but when it's something like that
that it's just a fundamental like
it's like finding rot in the foundation of the home
or something like that
that would drive me absolutely nuts
and part of what I really like about that story is
you didn't have that reaction um
you were kind of a
model of calm presence in that circumstance
and
I think that was probably a really important aspect
of the way that you dealt with that situation
you obviously could not have been happy about it
no not at all
not at all but
so this is why this is kind of why
why over time I have
um I'll say trained myself to respond like that
because what
often the reason parents flip out in that situation
based on what I've observed and what I've been told by
by parents that we work with
is that the child's defiant
and we have to stomp out Defiance at every at
at every opportunity right
parents typically
come down really hard on what they deem to be
defiant behaviour
and what they deem to be dishonest behaviour
those are that's the double d of
of of parenting distress
Defiance and dishonest
and so but what I realize is
it's not defined behavior from him
um I think that it is
it is the behavior of somebody who is literally
addicted to his screen and so if
if I had a child
that I discovered they had a drug problem
I would engage them kindly and I'd cut off their supply
and so now I have to I have to think about it that way
I engage him kindly yeah
and I want to cut off that supply
but there's a second level to the way
the way I've chosen to interact and
that is because
I need him to see that the appropriate response
when encountering something that you don't like
that you disagree with
or is against your wishes and instructions
whatever on that spectrum right
whatever's on that spectrum
that you can engage it thoughtfully and respectfully
because he's still a human being
who is worthy of being treated with respect
even when he does things that I don't like
and so I want him to learn that that is how he then
will one day engage his wife
his children his employees
his co workers his friends
and so for me to always
if we can always create a situation
where we're addressing the behavior with kindness
and understanding
but also mentoring how somebody should
should act in that given situation
then I consider that a win ultimately
I think the reflex that I would have
that I need to train myself out of
to withdraw connection yep
almost as a as a shaming activity
and what you're what you're saying is no
no no
this is an opportunity to reinforce the connection
and still enforce the boundary
yes because what happens is
we do use that shame that you said as a tool
we leverage it we withhold
we withhold affection from people who
even on the worst day in your parenting journey
with the most rebellious teen you can possibly imagine
that child yeah
still inside of them seeks connection to you
you know many people have
argued over the years that
poor behavior is a way to get a parent's attention
well if that is true
then you should learn from that
that we need to do more things together
you know my yeah
like I said it's my daughter's birthday today
we're going out for dinner
and then
her and her mom are going to some tattoo parlor
and she's getting her like 9th piercing or whatever
um but yeah
you know when she got her nose ring when she was 17
I think and her and my wife yeah
got their noses pierced together uh as
as a connection activity now
if you knew my wife Shawn
you would know that when I met her
on the list of things I was convinced I would never see
is her with a with a
with a nose piercing but
you know she did it to have fun together
and I think parents take themselves too seriously
and I think parents take their children's behavior
too personally we
we always act like the behavior we're dealing with
is meant to give us the middle finger
and i'mma tell you that half of the time
your child's behavior you were not a factored in at all
yeah yeah
they're just doing what it feels like they wanna do
and it is not it's not some scheme
well I mean
in that I remember
I remember feeling that way about the baby
when he was crying and and
I felt my reflex was
I felt like he was trying to manipulate me
and I had to beat that out of me
like this is a baby
he's not trying to
he's just hungry or in pain or whatever
I mean babies cry for a very limited unless again
the caveat always being
unless it's an underlying medical condition
but they cry cause they're hungry
um they're lonely
they're tired or they need a clean diaper right
it's a real it's a real short of
of needs that babies have and
and then to to have
to have somebody say that a baby is manipulative
um
yeah but
but that's what it feels like in the moment
it feels like you're getting manipulated
oh they're trying to do this long term game and
and it's just not the case
and it's not the case when they get older either
it's not it
they just it's
they're just doing their thing
well I mean
think about human beings right
we all have needs and we all try to get our needs met
and then um
we over time
if we cannot get our needs met in a healthy way
we will we will enact maladaptive
strategies to get our needs met
and so right
here's what I mean by that
you have financial resources
so if you're hungry you'll buy yourself some food
but if you don't have any money
and you don't have anybody who can help you and
your options are be really
really hungry or steal
you can be the most moral person on the planet
and I guarantee you with complete certainty
that you will steal food
if you ever find yourself in that situation
because you have a need for sustenance
and over time when
when positive and healthy strategies
buying food depending on the on
on your family or your friends
strangers whatever
local community organizations
a church whatever it is right
if those resources don't give you what you need
then you will eventually steal food
well what we don't remember about children is
they're exactly the same way
and so
plus but except for two things
they don't have the resources that adults have
to get their needs met
so they head for maladaptive pretty quickly
they also don't have the cognitive function to
to kind of think the problem through
it goes from right and
and then the third thing is
children and adults do this too
but children more than adults confuse needs and wants
and so
now something you want becomes something you need
and then
you will do whatever you need to do to get that
yeah um
and so the negative outcome of that is that
children get their needs met by their behavior
then they will increasingly engage
in behavior to get their needs met
rather than
if they get their needs met with their words
they will increasingly use their words to try to get
their behavior met which is why you have to pick up
their need met excuse me
which is why you have to pick up a crying baby
cause the the cry is the only way the baby communicates
that he or she has a need
well if you don't
if you let the baby cry it out
which is one of the worst pieces of parenting advice
of the last 30 years you know
just let the baby cry it out
if you let the baby cry it out
the baby will eventually learn
that their need doesn't go away
but their needs also not met
and then
they start associating
you as the person who doesn't meet their need and
and they and
and the relationship is harmed in
in very
very serious ways by simply letting the baby cry it out
now do you need to stand next to the crib
and pick the baby up the moment they go eh
no of course not
but if you hear a baby cry
and you give it a minute
to see if he or she will settle
and then you go in there and pick him up then
then that's fine
because that allows them that they hadn't
they had distress but somebody relieved their distress
and over time
they can learn that
that you can be trusted and that their voice has power
well once
once we teach somebody
that their voice doesn't have power
then you see
all the behaviors you don't wanna deal with
which I the behavior yeah
which cause the behavior will always have power
because at some point
somebody just won't want to deal with it anymore right
my younger brother's like
like this yeah
when when his youngest daughter was young she
she was pretty a pretty demanding little kid
and she'd want something and he'd say no
and he'd want something and she'd say
he'd say no and then every time she wanted it
the uh
intensity of the ask increased and wanted it
wanted it wanted it
and eventually when he'd had enough of her behavior
he just yelled at her
and told her she could do what she wanted
and and my
my wife has um
uh my wife's a good sister in law
because she has a pretty
good relationship with both of my brothers
and she pulled him aside one day and she said
all you're teaching her is to yell
to get what she wants
because you give her what she wants in any case
so what's the point of saying no
right you might as well say yes to begin with
the only lesson learning here is
if I scream and throw things
that I get what I want well
if that lesson is taught and reinforced over time
then we go to screaming and yelling
things way earlier than we used to
because it's how we get what we want
that's what works yep
you know I
I so we've talked a lot here about
about focusing the primacy of
of the connection
and there's there's another side to the kids needs too
and there's so there's the
they need the connection
and they need that basis of connection
but then they also need independence
yes
and those there's a tension between those things right
you know you can't be fully connected to somebody
and also be independent and vice versa
and so how do you think about that
and how do you cultivate
the independent side of that coin
well attachment research tells us that
somebody cannot be fully independent
if they weren't once fully dependent
so dependence is a prerequisite for independence
knowing that you can depend on somebody is what allows
we talked about that earlier
with a secure base right
you can go into the world and be you
if you know that there's a landing place for you
well if you don't trust that
that the adults who raised you cause
cause I know not everybody's raising kids
are raising kids born to them right
we got aunties and uncles
and grandma and grandpa raising kiddos
as well as adoption foster care families
um if they don't learn that you are somebody
who will depend they can depend on
then they won't have
feel the security to try to be themselves
well there's a real problem with having adults
who are not independent
because what happens is they seek
validation in others
they cannot function without
without the high fives um
and what happens is
is if you have that view of the world
you tend to over time and I know I say over time a lot
but we have to think about things in
in the context of over time
not in in the moment yeah
um over time
you start making some really bad decisions
because
you don't make decisions that are in your own self
interest you don't make decisions that are in the self
interest of your community
or your company or your family
you start making decisions
that will get people to like you
and now you're not an independent person
because you are beholden
to the ideas and whims of others
yeah and
and think about think about the horror of that
the only way that you can feel safe
the only way that you can feel good at all
is completely dependent upon what other people do
that's true and
and so I the way I think about that is
is we don't use the word the phrase be nice in our home
we we kind of we
we we kick that out of
out of the the
the home vocabulary you know
a decade ago because
because the word nice always
the concept of nice
always implies that you have to do something
to make somebody else happy
you know like so
so you you say you got a kid
who has a toy it's good enough
yes you have a kid who has a toy
and they have a sibling
who wants to play with said toy and
and Kid a whose toy it is
doesn't want Kid B to play with the toy
when mum and dad will say
oh
be nice to your brother and let him play with your toy
well so what does that mean
in order to be nice you have to give in
and do what other people want you to do
well that's a horrible parenting philosophy
and it's a horrible sustaining democracy philosophy
if you will and I don't mean to be super theatrical
or even sound political
but what happens is that when you're nice
you roll over but when you're good
a good man so we wanna raise
you know this is the context of of
of raising men over here um
we wanna raise good men not nice men
and sometimes we think it's the same but
but good men you know
not to sound you know
all ancient world
but they will stand in the city gates and defend that
which they are responsible for
nice men will avoid conflict and step aside
and let all manner of evil into their community
and so that's that's what I want I
I'm trying to raise men who
a 23 year old now and a 17 year old
who will be 18 in January
who who are good men
who will who will run into burning buildings
when there's a fire to save their neighbours
rather than take out their phones and film the video
the burning the building burning
so they can get likes and views on social media
and and
and to me that's
that's a real simple example of the
of the difference
of what we're trying to do with our boys
as opposed to
maybe what's happening now in the culture at large
is
we got too many people who want to capture the moment
because it might lead to issue deal from Adidas
because of their views on social media
rather than saving actual human lives
who are in a very very terrifying situation
yeah I think that is a really good observation and
and and yeah
I mean it's our our
our role as a parent is is to
is to give our sons this
the skills to thrive yeah
in in the world
and you know
when we want them to be as you say
you want them to be good men
and what does that mean
that means that they're a good provider
it means that they're a good protector
and um
and beyond that you know
that's that's kind of the ball game
that is the ball game you know
I asked my wife in front of
in front of my boys I said babe
do you have doubt in any way
that I would jump in front of a
bullet to save your life and she immediately said no
I do not
and and
and I said and I said to my boys because
because being a good man means that you do protect
you do provide um the my
my wife has zero doubt that she means the world to me
my children
have zero doubt that they mean the world to me
but none of them
and I don't always like it but but
but I will
I I will
I will gently push back on things that I think man
if we could just do this differently
um then we'd
we'd reap the benefits they don't always like it yeah
uh but
but my job is not to be liked
my job is to raise good men and and
and women who and girls who know one day
when they are out of my house
to know what they want for themselves and to know
to look for good men um
because we
we need people who are interested in investing
in subsequent generations
as in order to preserve the world we wanna live in
yeah
yeah and
I mean just in order
in order to thrive as
you know if you're a young man today and you don't
and you sort of you know
you give into the addiction of your phone and you
and you fall into all of these pitfalls
that nobody even I mean
they didn't exist five or 10 years ago these pitfalls
you're not I mean you're not gonna
look back on your life when you're 30 or 40
and feel like you're thriving yeah
I'm and that's really scary I mean
that's why how you get this
that's how you get the statistics where
you know four out of every five suicides is a male yeah
and that's terrible well and
and the interesting thing about those suicide
statistics is
when you look at suicide statistics
in the United States
they're almost identical in the United Kingdom
and so it's not an American problem
it is it is arguably um and I
I don't know if there's any statistics on this
from the eastern world or from developing nations
but I do know in the western world that it is
that it is a um
a man um
I don't want to say almostly exclusively
but but but over time it shows that
and it's also men like in their 40s too
if I remember looking at the stats correctly
it's not that it's teenage boys right
it's
it's people who get to to that midlife crisis if 49
45 is midlife I don't know if that is anymore but um
right but and
and and you start going well
because the way you were molded
raised trained mentored
and then the decisions you made as a result of that
you start having you
you've lived long enough and I'm 50 now
so I can speak with some authority of what
it was like being 45
I remember my 40th birthday was
was really difficult for me because I
I just felt funky I won't say depressed
because that's obviously a clinical diagnosis but
but I felt down because because I started
cause I started thinking myself
have I done as much as I wanted to
have I done enough have I contributed anything
and and my wife is
is somewhere between a gentle spirit
and a straight shooter she is a native of Texas
so she has no choice in the straight shooter department
um right
but um
I don't know if you know many Texans Shawn
but um
I do I
I grew up in Texas that's true yeah
yeah so yeah
I forgot that you told me that
my apologies but yeah
um but you know what it's like and
and so she said to me look
you need to feel sorry stop feeling sorry for yourself
snap out of it you've know
you've done things that matter
we're not cuddling this today
yeah that makes her a good woman
not a nice one I love that
yeah it does
what I love about that statement is it wasn't just
you know rub dirt on it like
you know go she
she gave you what you need to do
she you know
you know you've done good things
yeah
so stop pretending that you haven't
yeah and stand up and go do your
we don't wanna deal with mopey Ryan today
yeah so yeah
so you make yes ma'am
hahaha I love
you know
finding a good partner
is such an important aspect of this journey
yeah and it is
I can't imagine how much more difficult
uh parenting would be
if I didn't feel like I had someone who had my back yes
and I feel you know
my wife has got to feel the exact same way
and I just can't imagine
how much more difficult it would be
and a lot of people don't experience that
and so
like cultivating a good relationship with your partner
and and
and you know
it begins at the outset when
when you select that person um
but then cultivating that relationship over time
it's so cool yeah
I mean it holds in so many aspects of life
I was I was watching an interview with um
oh who is it
um Kevin Mister Wonderful
the guy from the Shark Shark Tank
the Canadian investor and he was being interviewed yeah
uh
and he said that the most important financial decision
that you will ever make is who you
who choosing who you marry
and the interviewer said well
you know make that make sense for me
and he said well
think about it if
if you if you build wealth over time
and then you get divorced
because the marriage didn't work
uh 50% of your wealth is gone plus yeah
50% of your earnings are gonna go
as well in the future and he said
and if you just kind of do some rough
back of the napkin math
um
divorce will cost you 67% of your wealth over time
and he said and and any financial investment
where you're gonna have a negative return of 67%
nobody engages in it
so so so he said you have to choose very
very wisely who you marry
because they have to be somebody who compliments you
they have to be somebody that challenges you
and they have to be somebody
who's willing to invest in you um
and you know
one of the great things about our marriage is
my wife and I are bothered by different things
and so if one of the kids is doing something
that's just really getting her hot under the collar
I can say hey
I got it and if they're doing something that's really
working on my last nerve she's like
she'll just like
put her hand on my shoulder and start talking and
and we made
we made some agreements outside of the moment
when everybody was emotionally regulated
that if that if somebody was just losing it
and one of us put the hand on their shoulder
calmly interjected or said
can you go to the store and buy me a pineapple
which is our little if if your spouse says
can you go to the store and buy me a pineapple
that means I've already pre agreed that
I'm exiting the discussion
and so we used that for a long time
until the kids figured that out
and then you know
our smart mouth now 23 year old
when he's a teenage boy
walks into the room and says to his mother mum
I think you need I think you need to get a pineapple
that is really funny yeah
that put two people in the line of fire that day
not just one
oh man
that's beautiful yeah
that's but you got
you also have to kind of appreciate
the ingenuity there you
you you
you you have to get mad a little bit
but you also have to go you know what
excellent Touche
my friend that was a really good one
I can assure you that after the fact
she thought it was clever
yeah you know
you know I uh
my wife and I have a similar dynamic yeah
where where one person needs to tap out and
and the other person sees that and says
you know OK
I got this from here
but we don't have a really healthy way of doing that
that that results in the person who's dysregulated
leaving the engagement feeling good about it
it's it
it it
it happens organically and so the person who
who leaves the engagement might feel shame about it
so if I'm you know
freaking out over the kids and my wife says
I got this from here or she
you know she's go take a walk
then I feel like I failed
or I feel like I've done something bad
but this pineapple strategy that you have
it's a pre existing condition
and it enables
it enables the person to parachute in and say
I've got this
in a way that allows the other person to escape
with their dignity yeah
or without feeling like oh
this is a failure it's like yeah
I mean we acknowledge that this happens all the time
and so this is how we deal with it
and it's just part of the process
yeah and
and one and so we did the pineapple thing
because it's intentionally semi disarming
because it's random and so yeah
yeah and it'll
it'll jerk you out of the yes
because your your brain pays attention to to
to new information and so that's new information
plus also
it's completely
unrelated to whatever discussion is going on
right we
we've never had an argument in our house
about pineapples
and so we felt like that was a pretty safe one to
to do of course
now that I've told you that
I'm sure we'll have a pineapple
I know now
you're gonna start having arguments about pineapples
all the time I'll email you and let you know that that
and thank you for that um
but but
but the other thing is like your
your phrasing their pre existing condition
and so and so we discuss these when we're regulated
and and we discuss them in the moment
and so one of the things we've Learned
you know and
and maybe this is easy for us to
to learn this because we run our own business
but you have to think of your family as uh
as a business you know and
and because we do we have to manage
manage the kids we have to manage schedules
we have to innovate
we have to do year end bonuses or as we call them
Christmas gifts at the house
um we
we have to manage calendars
you know as you imagine
when all six kids were living at the house
between theatre productions
sporting events
um
school and social stuff it
you know we
we
we were basically just an Uber service
and so we have to be able to manage those things
and so you know
my wife and I will have meetings
sometimes it's on Sunday night
sometimes it's on Monday morning over coffee
just thinking about the week
where we have business meetings
if we have upcoming travel
all those kinds of things and and and
and you know we
you use the word partner for your wife a lot
and I think that
that when we sit down and
and have those discussions
and talk about what we want for our family
my wife and I know what our goals for our family are
one day when they move out of the house
they will call us and say hey
are we doing Christmas at your house this year
that's it
because I know a lot of people whose kids be
grudgingly go to mom and Dad's house for Christmas
because they just don't want mom or dad to be mad again
right but
but we've never done that with our children you know
we're doing something for New Years well
I wanna go with my friend OK
well tell me who's gonna be there what are you doing
blah blah blah have fun you know
we've never forced the kids to be around us
and as a result of that
um and as a result of that
we now have children
who willingly choose to be around us
because we worked on the on the relationship here
here's the other thing cause
cause I do wanna
I do wanna make sure that anybody who listens
doesn't just dismiss this conversation as
those are the words of a permissive man but
but one of the things
that we need to understand about parenting
is that is that behavior is caught
at least as much as it's taught
um and so
we often think that if we just sort of
treat parenting like a college lecture
and you just explain what you need to do
then
then we're gonna have we have the best results well
we know that children
who grow up in houses where adults drink alcohol
are more likely to drink alcohol
children who
grow up in houses where people smoke because
because you tend to become what you see right
people who who were yelled at as children
their their
their parenting go to movies yelling to get compliance
right we tend to go with what's mentored into us
what's taught to us
and so one of the things we did early on in this
I this
this idea to try to build
a healthy relationship with the children
is we started apologizing to them when we were wrong
now I don't
and a lot of people will still tell me
they're not apologizing to their children
and my
and I try to convince them that they should do that
but over time I've realized that
that the hardest thing to change is somebody's belief
system
and so before you change their belief system
you have to consider that
that belief system was likely once an opinion
but you can't even change their opinion
what you have to do is
you have to try to change their perspective
and so and so
the best way
I know to change your perspective is to tell you hey
we tried this for 10 years
here were the results
I'm not telling you what you need to do
I'm just telling you what worked for us yeah
here's here's yeah
here's my experience yeah
and take it or leave it and so we would apologize
and so at our house the apology had a formula
say that you are sorry for
the very specific thing that you are sorry for
don't say I'm sorry yeah
if you yell at the children
and you know you shouldn't have yelled at them
you go and you say sweetheart
I am sorry that I yelled at you earlier
and then you also ask them
would you please forgive me
you admit what you did
you say you're sorry and you ask for forgiveness
and then you also committed
trying to do differently in the future
and so
and so we never taught that formula to our children
all of my children apologize like that now
will come to us unprompted and say daddy
I'm sorry that earlier I yelled at you when you were in
you came to talk to me will you please forgive me
just like that
and the only thing we actually taught them is
when somebody says I'm sorry that I yelled at you
or whatever they're sorry for
you don't have to say that's okay
because often times we'll just say that's okay
but I don't want my children to learn to
for them to
to validate and endorse being treated poorly
so you can say thank you yeah
thank you is a perfectly polite response
yes
but you should see how that unsettles adults
when my children say thank you
I I
I remember one time there was an incident at
at this school they do like a co op thing there on
campus couple of days and at home the rest of the time
and yeah and one of the classrooms um
there there was an issue and
and it bubbled up to my wife's ears
so she took my daughter and said look
you have to apologize to your teacher
and so this is one of the you know
unprompted at the house how to prompt it there
because they tend to spirits a little bit more shame
with people they're not connected to
and so she went to teacher sure
and she said I am really sorry that I
and before she even got to own her behavior
the teacher said oh it's fine
and my 10 year old daughter at 10 at the time said
but I really need to apologize and she said
oh no honey you don't it's fine
and my wife said my daughter was getting really
really frustrated and at 10 said to her teacher look
I behave poorly in class
I need to apologize and ask your forgiveness
why won't you let me
and so that was a proud daddy moment because
because now my children understand that I'm sorry
right relation let me let me say it this way
relationships are never without rupture
there's never there's never a time when your wife
no matter how much she knows that she loves you
there is never gonna be a time when she never ever
ever is annoyed by you frustrated by you mad
at you doesn't wanna speak to you
those are the realities of relationships
but if we can
once we've done something to rupture the relationship
we go back and repair the relationship
that teaches people that they matter because you hum
cause cause apologizing is an act of humility
you have to admit you were wrong
in some form of fashion in order to do it
and so when they will learn that their daddy um
is is humble enough
and cares about them enough
in order to make things right with them
then again they feel more valuable as human beings
which again with raising girls
I certainly wanna raise young women who feel valued
yeah I had a
I had an a
an experience this morning
this very morning
where I wish I had that apology framework
yeah um
my my daughter had hit my son
and he got upset with her about that
she apologized well
she said she was sorry but she didn't apologize in the
in any kind of framework
and he was still upset with her
and so you know
he said I
you know I acknowledge your apology
but I I don't accept it
and so she was very upset that he didn't
that she didn't actually get to experience
like
she didn't actually get to apologize and he didn't
and he didn't accept it and it was
it ended up being this really
really negative situation for everybody because
you know obviously
she done something wrong
he didn't feel like she had repaired it well enough
and so was still trying to punish her
she didn't feel that she was absolved in any way
or that you know
she got to make up for it
and so she was feeling punished and and unhappy
and so it was all bad but I think
if we had the reflex that you were talking about
things might have turned out differently well
and and one of the things
in that situation'cause we have had kids say
I don't accept your apology and so one of the things
you know
that so so you can say thank you for an apology
and the second thing are
the only things we taught after the fact not
not on how to apologize initially and that is that um
now we're working on grudge holding
and so the person
who was not willing to grant their forgiveness
I may an hour later go and say hey
you OK yeah
let's talk about what happened because now they're
they're
they're typically gonna be emotionally regulated again
about an hour or so later right yeah
there's there's very little agreement
very little things
that rises to them staying mad for days at a time
so we'll give them a little bit of time to kind of
to kind of settle and interact with them and say hey
look baby
we don't want to be the kind of people who hold
grudges and so and so um
are you still unwilling to forgive your brother
no okay
well then I just need to go and tell him thanks
your apology I forgive you
and so we've been able to work that in down the line
because I don't want yeah
I I don't want the people
the person is apologizing
to have unrealistic expectations
and I certainly don't want the person who's
receiving the apology to be unrealistic about it
because sometimes forgiveness takes time
and I can't
I can't predict how long it's gonna take you to forgive
because everybody's different because
you know somebody lies to me
I'm like don't lie to me
somebody lies to my wife it unsettles her
and so we all have different responses to
to human interaction and so I I
I don't want then
the person who was harmed
to feel like they're being held hostage
until they say I'm forgiven
so we've had to learn how to navigate that relationally
and so yeah
and so yeah
I mean over time that has
that has turned out to be a really great thing
in our home and so
you know our business is called one big happy home my
my my
my wife wanted wanted it called that years ago
um before we even had the business
we just had a blog
and she want to call one big happy home
because she wanted you know
six kids in peace
uh and so
I will I
I I told her recently
that's the only time she's ever engaged in
name it and claim it theology
with the one big happy home
uh right because
because all things considered
my house is not
is not a place where it's absent of conflict
absent of struggles but on balance
it is a place where people get along
where people love each other
work for each other
and and
and so yeah
so so
so maybe now it is a big happy home not
not not a conflict free home
not not an anxiety free home
but the overarching theme of our home is
a place where people know they are loved
and where they learn how to thrive
Ryan at the end of every Raising Men episode
I'd like to ask my guest
to give me one operating principle
something maybe a truth
that you try to live or raise your children by or
or just think is important
so I'll put you on the spot
give me one operating principle um
I'm I'm gonna combine two and say it in one sentence
so it feels like one operating principle perfect
that's great
curiosity is a better mindset than judgment
because most people are doing the best they can
even if it doesn't look that way to you
yeah that's a really
really really good one
because for the children it's often a matter of skill
not a matter of will
right yeah
yeah and
you don't get mad at them
for not being able to write their name
yet you don't get mad at them
cause they can't
run 100 meters in less than 10 seconds
right
and yet you'll get mad at them for not having really
really deep
emotional skills that require prefrontal cortex yes
it's it's amazing
yeah it's amazing
you have to we as parents
we just have to remind ourselves about yeah
and all and
and I think the thing that's frustrating for me
initially about my own behavior was that
that a lot of this is simple
um but we choose to complicate it
because what we just talked about a minute ago
that's pretty simple
right I wouldn't yell at the kid
for not being able to run 100 meters
cause I already know they can't
but I assume that they have the full emotional spectrum
and cognitive function of an adult
right yeah
and when
when we as adults
often fail to meet our own expectations
with respect to that
and yet we're holding these children to this
it's insane
it is insane that that's one of Ryan's governing
self governing principles
I will not require better behavior from an adult
myself included than I
I will not require better behavior from a child
than I will require from an adult
yeah yeah
ah so we
you know we got two principles for the price of one
actually we got three
oh my gosh I'm just
gonna put under my signature Ryan
thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today
this has been a delightful conversation
I hope we can do it again sometime
I love how you remind us that uh
that connection is
is primal and that it's strong and that it's steady
and it's what every boy needs from their parents
uh for anybody who wants to go deeper
please check out Ryan's work
and the one Big Happy Home podcast
their URL is one big happy home.com
the link is in the show notes
and this has been raising men
I'm Shawn Dawson and you are a great parent
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino