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Isaiah Rivera, pro dunker, and John Evans discuss anything related to maximizing athletic performance, and in particular, jump training. Strength and conditioning, jumping technique, weight room practices, and general fitness and health tips and advice are shared on this podcast.
What's up, guys? Welcome back to the THPStrength podcast. My name is John Evans. I coach many of the highest jumpers in the world like this guy, Isaiah Rivera, over here. The first person ever over six foot to break the 50 inch vertical jump area.
Speaker 1:Actually, the first person ever to break the 50 inch vertical barrier, but the only person over six foot to do it. Those long limbs are doing something. Talk about those long limbs. Anyways, we are gonna be talking about something pretty interesting that I get asked about a lot, and that is going to be the arm swing or arm movements during sprinting and jumping. So, obviously, the arm swing is important.
Speaker 1:Isaiah, what do you think your vertical would be without an arm swing on a counter movement jump versus with an arm swing?
Speaker 2:Probably take out, like, four or five inches.
Speaker 1:That's what she said. Sorry. You think you could jump 45 inches without an arm swing?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You think you could pogo shrug 45 inches?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm thinking off the dribble.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. I'm saying hands on.
Speaker 2:But not even the
Speaker 1:Nothing.
Speaker 2:Not even that. Woah. Wow.
Speaker 1:No arm action.
Speaker 2:No arm action. Oh my goodness. There will be some high issues that are a high check with zero arms. There would be
Speaker 1:some other act there would be some other issues. Let's say you hold the PVC pipe. You hold the PVC pipe on a shoulder on your shoulders. Holy cow. Like, 36?
Speaker 2:I mean, I could get
Speaker 1:40. You think so?
Speaker 2:Only one way to find out.
Speaker 1:Alright. So here's here's where things I I was, yeah, I was studying this pretty pretty extensively before. So my hair is crazy on this headset. So if we were to take the arm swing out but in a countermovement jump, we know guys are gonna jump significantly lower. Right?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's you know, you do a hands on hip. I don't know. On a force plate, you probably test 29, 30. With an arm swing, you're probably gonna test 34, 35. Right?
Speaker 1:So it's pretty significant, maybe 20%, I'd say. And in spring and in anything locomotive, I think that it's exacerbated. I think those the the the importance of the arms in those activities is increasingly so. Meaning, without the arms, you cannot mitigate rotation around the pelvis because you have limbs that are rotating at crazy high torques. For example, your femur is rotating around your pelvis.
Speaker 1:Your lower leg is kicking out. You then the support leg is gonna do something. You'll generate rotation. If you don't have the arms, you will you will have a lot of rotation. What the arms do is they counteract or, as Dan called it, the riding reflex.
Speaker 1:So it functions to keep you upright so you can generate more force into the ground. So it's more about stabilizing your leg and allowing it to strike the ground effectively more so than it is about actually increasing the force during during spring. It's probably marginal because during upright running, you're gonna get a slight block upwards. Right? And your foot's gonna strike the ground rate as your arms are kinda, like, bottom dead center, and then you're gonna be pushing off as you get to the top of that arm swing.
Speaker 1:And so then it brings into question, you look like your brain is rattled right now. It looks like I just made you reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm realizing something. I think my penultimate lengthened so I was studying, like, jumpers when I like, pro jumpers when I was, like, 16, and something I noticed with the best dunkers, they had straight arms and they would swing them back really hard. Right? Like, the arms would be straight. Then I looked at my jumps and my arms my arms swing used to be this.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I remember those. Yeah. Even until you were like 18 you did that, I feel like.
Speaker 2:Well, I was I'm looking at old videos and as soon as I straighten the arms and threw them over my head, my penultimate lengthened. And then it's even more extreme. You know, when sometimes I was, like, in game dunks, I'll shorten the penultimate.
Speaker 1:The arms do this. They have to. Yeah. Because they're you're trying to mitigate rotations around the body. So if you don't have those counter rotations, you're gonna end up rotating, you know, laterally or in the transverse plane or something like that, and you don't want that, especially when you sprint.
Speaker 1:So here's where it gets even more interesting. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You agree? Yes. So if I rotate my arms downward, okay, right, does the scale tell me I weigh less or
Speaker 2:more? On the down part?
Speaker 1:On the down part. It goes from up to down. More. At what point at what point would the scale go up? As soon as soon as I start moving downward?
Speaker 1:Bottom dead center. Exactly. The reversal. So what happens is you have a crazy change of well, you actually unweight. It's an unweighting phase, and you'll see this on the counter movement jumps too.
Speaker 1:Right? So you're unweighting because you're lowering. You're pulling yourself into flexion, almost lifting yourself off the ground, and you're swinging the arms downward. That actually pushes your trunk upwards. But what happens is you have a crazy change of momentum because the acceleration goes from downward to upward.
Speaker 1:Right? So you have you've got, let's call it, six meters per second. Your hands are swinging down to switching to six meters per second upwards in two you know, basically, that's happening in a tenth of a second, maybe faster, maybe fifty milliseconds. It's going from really, really fast at the bottom to really fast upwards. Right?
Speaker 1:And when you get to the bottom, that change in direction requires a lot of force. Right? You're you're you're seeing a massive change. You're going from negative six meters per second to positive six meters per second in, like, the blink of an eye. Well, we know that if the change in acceleration is 12 meters per second, if that swinging mass or whatever, however you wanna measure it, then we know that there has to be a huge force.
Speaker 1:Right? So what happens is there's a as you get to the bottom, that's where it weights you down, and that's where you'll see the force start going up into the ground a lot, and that preloads the legs more. So you're gonna have more stretch at the bottom when you're at the most lengthened position where the tendon is most susceptible to be stretched, right, and store a lot of energy. So you're timing up that arm swing with this quasi isometric condition with this huge change in acceleration. And then as the arms drive upwards, now it's pushing you down into the you're pushing more force into the floor.
Speaker 1:Right? And then the second benefit is, obviously, you have a higher takeoff center of mass position. So with your hands above your head, in contact with the ground, your center of mass is in a higher position before your feet ever leave the ground. It's the same reason why guys with really long feet can have a higher vertical because they measure flat floated and then before they even leave the ground, they're already a foot higher off the ground before they even stop producing force into the floor. So that's the the second reason why.
Speaker 1:Then the third, which is kind of all interrelated and kinda goes back, I guess, maybe to the first point, is that you have to you have to manage the rotations in an approach jump. And so that's where the arms come into play as well. Right? Like, there's this righting reflex as you're running forward. You can imagine this would be awkward as hell.
Speaker 1:You'd start generating awkward rotational forces, lateral forces that your arms would function to counter. Because if I lift this arm upward and my opposite knee is driving upwards, then I'm able to manage that rotation that would occur if I didn't use my arms. Right? So it's like, if I drive my right knee up, there's gonna be a rotation that happens. But if I drive my left arm up, then I can manage that rotation better and have a more stable trunk.
Speaker 1:As soon as you're coming in, it's about sequencing things so that the timing of the arm swing mirrors the sequencing of what's happening in your legs. So if you don't have like, if you do a short penultimate step and you do a short arm swing, they're gonna be sequenced. They're gonna time up so that when your block foot hits the ground, your arm's swinging through, you're getting a a big waiting period into the floor. Right? You're getting a big propulsive push into the floor.
Speaker 1:You're going from unweighted to weighted really, really intensely. And if you didn't time that up, you wouldn't be summated. You wouldn't have good intramuscular coordination, and you wouldn't sequence it from proximal to distal and summate force as well. So in spring, I think it probably doesn't really increase the vertical ground reaction forces that much. It's it increases them because you're not rotating and you're balanced, so you can push harder.
Speaker 1:You can imagine if I asked you to max out a squat in a position you wouldn't be balanced. You're not gonna be able to produce a lot of force. Right? But if I balance you, you can create a lot of force. That's partially some of the reason why guys lean forward on squats because they can balance better and create more force.
Speaker 1:Same thing's true in springing in that dynamic environment. Foot's coming down. You get to the bottom. You have a lot of force, and then you're stopping the rotation so you're ready for the next stride before you come down and hit the ground again. Acceleration is kinda interesting too, and you notice this.
Speaker 1:You do the big split, what happens? Get a big split in the legs. It's like one of the one of the benefits to it. But if you try to sprint like this for five
Speaker 2:You know, that's what I didn't even try running, like, bigger split. I just thought about the arms only. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just yeah. Because you're gonna get you're gonna have to counter it with the legs. Your legs will have to counter the fact that you're now putting yourself in a position where if you don't reposition fast and well, then you're giving yourself more time to push by doing this and timing it, which is natural feeling athletic, and then repositioning and getting back into the next stride. Obviously, you wouldn't be able to do, you know, this for for I can't really you can't really see it, but you wouldn't be able to do this for five strides. Right?
Speaker 1:You you know, it wouldn't be possible. You wouldn't be able to balance. So that's really what I was kinda researching before the podcast is looking at, in terms of physics, how does this actually work and why do we need it? Or how important are the arms? And I think they're really important.
Speaker 1:I think, specifically, the timing. The timing and the positions of them depending on what strategy you use. You look like you're deep diving penultimate steps right now.
Speaker 2:I am.
Speaker 1:You wanna
Speaker 2:share with the my mind.
Speaker 1:Oh, you wanna share with the class? Yeah. Yeah. Let's share with
Speaker 2:the class. Go ahead and share
Speaker 1:your screen here. You want to pause it?
Speaker 2:No. You don't have to pause it. I'll just share my whole
Speaker 1:He's not scared.
Speaker 2:Your screen.
Speaker 1:There's nothing incriminating on the screen. Okay.
Speaker 2:So this was before I ever thought about lengthening my penultimate. Look at the horn. Oh. Right? This is toe off.
Speaker 2:Last frame of foot's on the ground. Then we have my first windmill. Arm start coming up a little bit more. Alright? And then later that year, when I had my best jumps ever, look where the arms are.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna blow your mind. Are you ready? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Go look up Nico Christie.
Speaker 2:Okay. You wanna pause
Speaker 1:it? Interesting. Yeah. I'll pause it. This will be an interesting case study.
Speaker 1:Alright. Hold up. You don't think this will show it?
Speaker 2:Edit it. It's okay.
Speaker 1:No. No. Right here. It's gotta show it. Oh.
Speaker 1:Oh. Exactly. So it's possible
Speaker 2:This is a is a high level find here.
Speaker 1:I know. Thank you. Thank you. So what he does interesting. What he does is pretty interesting, though.
Speaker 1:Look at the arm swing. Watch how it comes up. He swings like a bird like this. He doesn't swing his arms back. He goes like this.
Speaker 1:That's the only way he'd be able to do it? That's the only way he'd be able to get there in time. Yeah. So he kinda brings them close and then just, like, look how close his hands are. Pendulum
Speaker 2:into, like, circular almost.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yep. So he's here, and then watch his elbow watch his hands unfold. Go back. So his hands are folded.
Speaker 1:He takes that stride. Keep going next frame. That so he's unfolding like this. He's doing like a reverse fly. That's how he does it.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's what you do. Go to go to one of your best videos, but he's able to get his hands there. He's able he is able to reposition his hands fast enough where it works. Like, it's it's pretty pretty impressive. I'd be curious to see how much of a how much of yours kind of reverse fly versus reverse fly versus actually swinging backwards?
Speaker 1:Because I don't think you I highly doubt that it's Oh, here we go. That it's a swing backwards. I'm sure it's no. You're not gonna be able to get it.
Speaker 2:Literally the last jump.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Here we go. Oh, Donovan, I miss you. K. Keep going frame by frame.
Speaker 1:Yep. So yours, yeah, yours actually swing back.
Speaker 2:Below the hips. Like like Yeah. Below the greater trochanter.
Speaker 1:You're like you're like a reverse fly and an extension. Nico just kinda doesn't come back like that. Like, his would just soar upwards. Like, he would just kinda Yeah. Like, his hands don't go anywhere than his knees.
Speaker 1:Like, my hands are here. Yep. He doesn't do that. He kinda keeps them up and then just just brings them past his I don't know. It's like a it's like a literally like a cable reverse fly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. He's going I'm going up, down. He's going, like, down and out. Yeah. And then up.
Speaker 1:Like Yeah.
Speaker 2:Ouch. Yep.
Speaker 1:That's it hurt. Probably hurt. So there are ways you can have a longer arm swing with a shorter penultimate step, but you've gotta do it faster. You have to find a strategy that allows you to get the hands back in position and through before the block foot comes down. It's like if you keep going so he's able to get the hands back.
Speaker 1:Yes. It's a short penultimate step. Keep going. He's got a little bit more flight time, and then he can get the hands back around so before his block would hit the ground. It's a pretty interesting strategy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Very different for me.
Speaker 2:This is always the position you wanna be in, though, right here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. He hits the key position for sure. And, you know, he's low and fast, and ultimately, he's very elastic. Like, Nico's a pretty elastic athlete.
Speaker 1:He's very fast, very bouncy. He has one of the longest left Achilles I've ever seen in my entire life.
Speaker 2:That's crazy, bro. That, you know,
Speaker 1:it's wild. We don't Like, you could right there. You could technically do the reverse fly technique doing that.
Speaker 2:Like, we don't think about this, but part of the reason long penultimate might be better is because you get more
Speaker 1:Or arm swing timing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's probably one
Speaker 2:of the reasons why go the meta for let me stop sharing here. The meta for short penultimate might be the Nico technique.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think so. Because think about how much probably is.
Speaker 2:Arm. Like, this right here
Speaker 1:is so much less arm. But if you fly, reverse fly, you get a lot more out of it. Yeah. That might be But Travis Reynolds, if you're listening to this better.
Speaker 2:Because you get, like, stretch reflex. Like, the fact that you're going from here
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's I think it's the pretension. I think you get you have more time to pre I think you have more time to precontract. Because the problem with the short penultimate step is you you don't have enough flight time to reposition, and you don't have enough flight time. You have less time to start pre contraction. And, typically, you you're I would assume that you're gonna get less of the whip and flow mechanisms of the block foot.
Speaker 1:You're gonna get less. It's you're gonna start losing those passive elements, those reflexive passive elements. The timing is probably a little bit tougher to do. The sequencing and the whip and flail mechanism of the pelvis is probably not gonna be the same because they typically don't kick out as much, and they don't they're not as low coming in. And then there's just a there's a few consequences that I think leave inches on the table.
Speaker 1:So I still think that I still think the best mechanical model is a longer I mean, Dylan used a long peloton step. He's got a 52.
Speaker 2:There's no information off the dribble as well. Think about how different
Speaker 1:the timing is. It's way shorter. I I think it's
Speaker 2:versus, like
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's there's gonna be a lot of a lot of implications. It's less fluid. It's less full times, less coordinate. You can still do it.
Speaker 1:Don't get me wrong. You still do it. But I think when you get to the off dribble stuff, what happens at the pelvis is really important. Think some guys can just power up through it, but you look at someone like Steven Selle. Why why was Steven not good off the dribble?
Speaker 1:Right? He didn't have the positions to be able to transfer his horizontal momentum vertically the same way that he did off a lob. And I think off a lob, his the speed allowed him to twist his plant foot a little bit more, bring his block foot around, and then his arms were able to compensate for the fact that he, you know, was twisting a little bit and he jumped high despite that. But I think if Steven had good, really solid hips that were really mobile, He probably does line dot. We'll call it the line dot and times up that arm swing really well, jumps way higher.
Speaker 1:I think he probably had way more in the tank. And then off dribble, I think he's able to use his block foot better and not leak energy twisting. You know? I say it's like the fan versus the line. If you got the fan, you're leaking energy on that twist quite a bit.
Speaker 1:I think it's better that foot stays planted. You start to build up all the elastic energy in the in the in the hips and the glutes, and I'm sure you could get a lot more lift off of doing stuff like that. But it's pretty interesting just looking at the little narrative case study review here we have over the years. But that's the podcast, guys. We gotta keep it relatively short today.
Speaker 1:I hope you guys enjoyed it. Hopefully, it was interesting and novel. If you guys are interested in coaching, go to tspstrength.com. You can sign up for the annual plan, which is half the price of paying for the month to month option. You will be paying $1,800 versus $900 if you sign up for the annual plan.
Speaker 1:Otherwise, you can sign up for the vertical jump diagnosis. You figure out what your deficit is, figure out how to fix it. It's completely free. You don't trust us.
Speaker 2:Problem that call.
Speaker 1:You don't trust us and you wanna get some more information about your deficits, it's a good option. You can increase your vertical by two inches in six weeks, and you get a re you get your deposit back. So a good option to get in the door. Thank you guys for listening, and we'll see you tomorrow. Bye.
Speaker 2:Bye bye.